Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Blue to Red?
53 Comments: Here's one to worry traditionalists...
Cardiff City ? known as the 'Bluebirds' for as long as I can remember ? are being pressured by their Malaysian investors to change their home kit to red.
So, folks, if the price of new ownership at Everton was we play in red and perhaps call ourselves 'Liverpool City' and play at 'New Anfield' ? is it a price you'd be willing to pay for financial stability and a crack at the Champs League?
My own opinion is, if the day ever comes when an owner dictates changes of this magnitude to our identity and tradition ? that'll be the day I retire from active participation in supporting Everton to spend more time in the alehouse developing my alcoholism and game of pool...
Kevin Sparke, Posted 09/05/2012 at 11:15:52
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If I wanted glory I wouldn't have supported Everton in the first place. I'm sure Cardiff City fans are the same.
Just read this on Sky Sports app. Then read it here a few minutes later. My stomach turned at the thought of it. Terrifying stuff.
Horrible horrible thought.
Well, dunno - they're in a one-club City whose nearest rivals play in white; Leeds changed their colours under Revie.
As for the Everton Football Club; I say bring back the Black Watch shirt with the ruby sash (and centre partings).
As for the Everton Football Club; I say bring back the Black Watch shirt with the ruby sash (and centre partings).
No way! Imagine it... fuck me, that is fucking scary! COYB.
As if that would ever happen...
How long before Cardiff has a new team formed by former fans, á la FC United and Wimbledon?
Thank Christ we have an Evertonian in charge and not some shifty foreign bugger who might take out loans against future season ticket revenue, borrow against future broadcast revenue, borrow off shady "friends" whose motives are to make money off moving our ground to a retail park that no-one could get to...
Be careful what you wish for, eh!
Be careful what you wish for, eh!
Disgraceful Idea!!! Utterly sickening to think a buyer would ask this of a club, to shed it's history because they bought it and they OWN it!
They want to change their colours to red, the club badge from a bluebird, to a red dragon. The red dragon being the Welsh symbol, but of course it has a massive bearing on the Malaysian market for the owners.
They have just let Cardiff Blues (rugby) cancel the agreement to ground share, which allows them to take complete control of the ground. Plans to increase capacity are on the table and funds for a real concerted effort to get promoted after failing in the play-offs 3 years running.
The only thing I would worry about is the club badge. It for me is part of the soul of the club. I really hate red shirts, but it would be, in Cardiffs' case, a small price to pay, surely?
They have just let Cardiff Blues (rugby) cancel the agreement to ground share, which allows them to take complete control of the ground. Plans to increase capacity are on the table and funds for a real concerted effort to get promoted after failing in the play-offs 3 years running.
The only thing I would worry about is the club badge. It for me is part of the soul of the club. I really hate red shirts, but it would be, in Cardiffs' case, a small price to pay, surely?
I would like to think it could never happen to us in the belief that our fans would not stand for it... but, after the disgraceful way the fans applauded the compulsive liar and percieve the Blue Union as troublemakers, well, anything's possible.
Mike Iddon.... Why did you have to go and say that, are you implying the old "Better the Devil you know" line?
Mike Iddon.... Why did you have to go and say that, are you implying the old "Better the Devil you know" line?
Phil 859
The Black Watch should be our away colours.
The Black Watch should be our away colours.
We'd have to change all of our songs...
"...And we'll fight fight fight, with all our might for the boys in the bright red jerseys"
"We don't care what the (other) red shite say..."
"Come on you, once-used-to-be blues"
Unthinkable...
"...And we'll fight fight fight, with all our might for the boys in the bright red jerseys"
"We don't care what the (other) red shite say..."
"Come on you, once-used-to-be blues"
Unthinkable...
Phil,
I think I read somewhere that Liverpool also changed their kit to all-red, ditching the white shorts around the same time was it? (Under direction from Shankly.)
I think I read somewhere that Liverpool also changed their kit to all-red, ditching the white shorts around the same time was it? (Under direction from Shankly.)
I think I'm right in saying we played in red during a couple of seasons when The Victims played in blue... i think it was in the 1800s, weird hey?
I know we played in the Black Watch kit at some time and I've always liked black as an away kit but the ruby sash doesn't seem right anymore. Those days we weren't known as the Blues and we didn't have a hatred of anything red... but now? I'd be happy with a blue sash on an all black kit for the away colours.
I know we played in the Black Watch kit at some time and I've always liked black as an away kit but the ruby sash doesn't seem right anymore. Those days we weren't known as the Blues and we didn't have a hatred of anything red... but now? I'd be happy with a blue sash on an all black kit for the away colours.
That's right, Michael, I remember seeing something about it on the telly, I think Shankly ditched the white shorts because he thought all red was more intimidating to the opposition.
Richard 882 - Christ, you can't say anything here without someone assuming something! I was simply saying you need to be careful WHO buys a football club ? not whether it should be sold or not.
I don't think we can on one-hand complain about lack of funding, then on the other, potentially turn funding down that we don't like.
If a new investor came along and wanted to make changes, then personally as long as I could see the reward, I'd be open to them.
Other clubs have already changed stadium names, and whilst in some cases its been self-serving, in other cases (e.g. arsenal) it's been a valuable source of income. Commercialism of the game is not something that has just crept in, its been in our faces for some time.
I know it's a bit "who stole my cheese", but we need to embrace whatever funding we can get if we want to compete, and I personally put competition over traditionalism, though I accept many won't feel the same.
If a new investor came along and wanted to make changes, then personally as long as I could see the reward, I'd be open to them.
Other clubs have already changed stadium names, and whilst in some cases its been self-serving, in other cases (e.g. arsenal) it's been a valuable source of income. Commercialism of the game is not something that has just crept in, its been in our faces for some time.
I know it's a bit "who stole my cheese", but we need to embrace whatever funding we can get if we want to compete, and I personally put competition over traditionalism, though I accept many won't feel the same.
Tradition has its place in defining our 'identity' but my opinion is that it shouldn't be a reason to do nothing and fade away if your tradition fails to breed success.
What is a football club but an organisation that exists to win the next game? If it isn't that then your tradition could see you keeping company with other traditionalists in the lower leagues.
Tradition can also be a great strength but has to be viewed appropriately - no to playing in red for example but yes to playing in a modern stadium that allows us to compete that is not called Goodison Park. Yes to playing outside of Walton but no to playing outside of the city? Who decided what is acceptable? We do.
What is a football club but an organisation that exists to win the next game? If it isn't that then your tradition could see you keeping company with other traditionalists in the lower leagues.
Tradition can also be a great strength but has to be viewed appropriately - no to playing in red for example but yes to playing in a modern stadium that allows us to compete that is not called Goodison Park. Yes to playing outside of Walton but no to playing outside of the city? Who decided what is acceptable? We do.
I remember the Shankly change ? certainly worked for Yard-dog Yeats.
Nostalgia, that's the future... My grandad often referred to us as "The Midnight Dribblers" and Paul (883) I see someone's thinking along the same lines (bit too moderny red, though ? make it ruby):
http://www.footballshirtculture.com/fantasy-kit-design/fantasy-kit-design/everton-black-watch-3rd-kit-2012/13-17902.html
Nostalgia, that's the future... My grandad often referred to us as "The Midnight Dribblers" and Paul (883) I see someone's thinking along the same lines (bit too moderny red, though ? make it ruby):
http://www.footballshirtculture.com/fantasy-kit-design/fantasy-kit-design/everton-black-watch-3rd-kit-2012/13-17902.html
Appologies to you Mike, looks like I read to much into what you said.
Thank's Michael, just had a look and that Everton kit isn't as bad as I was anticipating, although bad enough, a darkesh red top with dark blue shorts and socks.
Thank's Michael, just had a look and that Everton kit isn't as bad as I was anticipating, although bad enough, a darkesh red top with dark blue shorts and socks.
Oohh Thomas!
"What is a football club but an organisation that exists to win the next game?"
Grab your tin hat before the "realists" start on you
"What is a football club but an organisation that exists to win the next game?"
Grab your tin hat before the "realists" start on you
Jeremy Benson ? It all depends on who's doing the buying and supplying the funds... and what do they want in return for it?
There's a point where the team you've supported since being a kid stops being that team ? eg, if Everton, due to owner pressure, were to change their name to 'Liverpool City' or 'Liverpool Athletic', I think I'd give them a miss...
Same as if we moved to a different town, say Warrington or Runcorn... or If we went from Royal Blue to Red jerseys it might have the same effect ? it wouldn't feel right shouting for 'the reds'...
All of the above has happened to other clubs (Milton Keynes Dons etc).
Only the most blinkered would suggest that increased funding isn't necessary ? it is; we can't stay the same or we'll eventually die of funding malnutrition.
However, it depends on who is doing the funding ? would you really want the Venkys at Everton? Gaydamak? Magnusson? Whyte? Al Fayed? Even the likes of Lerner?
Just securing a new owner isn't the panacea that many imagine it to be ? you're in effect playing funder roulette ? and for every success, I can show you three failures...
Whoever buys us in the future ? if they change too much about the club, they can foxtrot oscar without me...
Mike Iddon - you're right... anything you say on here, some will try and fit you into a pigeon hole... either for or against the board, for or against Moyes, for or against BU ? it's fucking depressing at times.
There's a point where the team you've supported since being a kid stops being that team ? eg, if Everton, due to owner pressure, were to change their name to 'Liverpool City' or 'Liverpool Athletic', I think I'd give them a miss...
Same as if we moved to a different town, say Warrington or Runcorn... or If we went from Royal Blue to Red jerseys it might have the same effect ? it wouldn't feel right shouting for 'the reds'...
All of the above has happened to other clubs (Milton Keynes Dons etc).
Only the most blinkered would suggest that increased funding isn't necessary ? it is; we can't stay the same or we'll eventually die of funding malnutrition.
However, it depends on who is doing the funding ? would you really want the Venkys at Everton? Gaydamak? Magnusson? Whyte? Al Fayed? Even the likes of Lerner?
Just securing a new owner isn't the panacea that many imagine it to be ? you're in effect playing funder roulette ? and for every success, I can show you three failures...
Whoever buys us in the future ? if they change too much about the club, they can foxtrot oscar without me...
Mike Iddon - you're right... anything you say on here, some will try and fit you into a pigeon hole... either for or against the board, for or against Moyes, for or against BU ? it's fucking depressing at times.
I don't know about all red kits intimidating opponents but its seems to have very persuasive qualities where referees are concerned.
Kevin,
I agree. I didn't say I'd sell my soul - only that I'd be open if new investors wanted change, if I could see a reward. What that change would be, and the reward, are open to debate.
But I do think I there is a fear that many evertonians are reluctant to change. I would hate to see a situation develop that we push any new owner away through traditonalism or over-egging our own position.
Whether its accurate or not, the BBC reported yesterday that the rangers bidder walked away with one of the reasons being that he heard the fans shout "yank go home" or somesuch. Talk about not seeing the wood for the trees.
I'd love everything to stay the same. But the reality is that I don't expect a random uber-rich investor to come along, give us £150 million and say "spend this on some players and just entertain us". Sadly some fans seem to think thats reasonable or worse, expected. I expect our next owner to not be uber-rich, but instead a sports-minded businessman who has had to beg or borrow money and wants to manage the club as a business (as the majority of premiership clubs are) for his loan-providers.
In this scenario, I expect some changes to meet the interest payments and to make efc "viable" for the future.
Maybe I'm misguided...but then losing £5 million+ per year isn't exactly a bupa clean bill of health either.
I agree. I didn't say I'd sell my soul - only that I'd be open if new investors wanted change, if I could see a reward. What that change would be, and the reward, are open to debate.
But I do think I there is a fear that many evertonians are reluctant to change. I would hate to see a situation develop that we push any new owner away through traditonalism or over-egging our own position.
Whether its accurate or not, the BBC reported yesterday that the rangers bidder walked away with one of the reasons being that he heard the fans shout "yank go home" or somesuch. Talk about not seeing the wood for the trees.
I'd love everything to stay the same. But the reality is that I don't expect a random uber-rich investor to come along, give us £150 million and say "spend this on some players and just entertain us". Sadly some fans seem to think thats reasonable or worse, expected. I expect our next owner to not be uber-rich, but instead a sports-minded businessman who has had to beg or borrow money and wants to manage the club as a business (as the majority of premiership clubs are) for his loan-providers.
In this scenario, I expect some changes to meet the interest payments and to make efc "viable" for the future.
Maybe I'm misguided...but then losing £5 million+ per year isn't exactly a bupa clean bill of health either.
To quote that wonderful humanitarian the Reverand Ian Paisley.....NEVERRRRRR NEVERRRR NEVERRRR
When's our new kit being offically launched? Does anyone know?
We did I am pretty sure win our first ever league title at Anfield wearing ruby red shirts with blue trim and blue shorts. I would have no problem with us having the Black Watch kit as change strip. We even wore red before they did!
It was the team now known as Liverpool that wanted to be known as Everton Athletic; I wish they would have been given the name... I think the football league rejected it.
As for the Cardiff ideas, I think it sucks, personally yet another example of money dominating the game,
It was the team now known as Liverpool that wanted to be known as Everton Athletic; I wish they would have been given the name... I think the football league rejected it.
As for the Cardiff ideas, I think it sucks, personally yet another example of money dominating the game,
Re the RS shorts colour change. They origionally changed into red shorts to prevent a colour clash in a European game, which they needed to win ? and did.
They had to do it in the next round and won... the shorts then became the 'lucky red shorts' so the started wearing them in league games and were promptly jumped on by the league because it wasn't the colour they registered at the start of the season, so back to the white.
The club (Shankly) promptly registered the red shorts at the start of the next season and they have had them ever since.
RS ? you get exactly what it says on the tin.
They had to do it in the next round and won... the shorts then became the 'lucky red shorts' so the started wearing them in league games and were promptly jumped on by the league because it wasn't the colour they registered at the start of the season, so back to the white.
The club (Shankly) promptly registered the red shorts at the start of the next season and they have had them ever since.
RS ? you get exactly what it says on the tin.
When the RS entered the league their first kit colour was.........blue.
And Everton?..............well we were wearing red at that time.
And Everton?..............well we were wearing red at that time.
Richard #897 " I'd be happy with a blue sash on an all black kit for the away colours. "
Then everyone would think they we're playing City.
Then everyone would think they we're playing City.
I would be happy to wear the Black Watch with the RED sash. Didn't umbro release a trackie in the exact colours back with HK2 (HK3)?
As if.........
Cardiff play in a one-club City, with their biggest rivals playing in white.
I'd accept fuckin' bin bags with plastic cocks attached if the new owner had as much cash as that mon from City.
Say what ya like, he's brought success. Fuck the colour of the kit - they're winning things.
Cardiff play in a one-club City, with their biggest rivals playing in white.
I'd accept fuckin' bin bags with plastic cocks attached if the new owner had as much cash as that mon from City.
Say what ya like, he's brought success. Fuck the colour of the kit - they're winning things.
It would never happen; The Shite already play in red.
seems a bit pointless. Changing the colour wont suddenly shift millions more kits in Malaysia. Not until the team is in the PL and on TV will the Malaysians give a shit. Just seems like turning the team into a brand, and one that has a very limited market.
That fantasy Nike black watch kit is boss.
I'd be delighted if we played in that for home games for a season or two!
...and if new owners insisted we stayed that way as a caveat to investing 2 billion quid into the squad and building a replica Chinese Bird's nest stadium on the waterfront, then, yes, I could live with it. Happily.
I'd be delighted if we played in that for home games for a season or two!
...and if new owners insisted we stayed that way as a caveat to investing 2 billion quid into the squad and building a replica Chinese Bird's nest stadium on the waterfront, then, yes, I could live with it. Happily.
Phil #859 & Paul #883,
What's the reference to Black Watch colours?
I know they are a now disbanded Scottish Regiment but I don't get the association?
What's the reference to Black Watch colours?
I know they are a now disbanded Scottish Regiment but I don't get the association?
There's more chance of Prince Charles presenting the weather forecast than of that happening...
Just heard it on World News -- an unnamed Chinese investor is willing to invest 2bn in Everton.
The news came in 5 minutes after Prince Charles presented Scotland's weather forecast
The news came in 5 minutes after Prince Charles presented Scotland's weather forecast
Jem
We used to be called St Domingo's but we changed to Everton as we grew and we attracted players from other parish's.The players brought their own kits but obviously they were all different colours,black was the easiest colour to dye them all and the scarlet sash was added for decorative affect.The club was nicknamed The Black Watch after the Scotish regiment,simply because we played in black I think.
We used to be called St Domingo's but we changed to Everton as we grew and we attracted players from other parish's.The players brought their own kits but obviously they were all different colours,black was the easiest colour to dye them all and the scarlet sash was added for decorative affect.The club was nicknamed The Black Watch after the Scotish regiment,simply because we played in black I think.
Thank god we've got Bill eh, Chaps?
We can all sleep safely knowing 10 years from now we'll still be wearing the royal blue...in League 1.
We can all sleep safely knowing 10 years from now we'll still be wearing the royal blue...in League 1.
Jim #099, the Malaysian national team play in red so there's an asscoaition with that.
They are not doing it following backlash from the fans.
First half of each season we should run out in Shocking Pink!
Funny how Samsung weren't put off from being Chelsea's shirt sponsers yet Chelsea play in Blue? Red is supposed to be a "lucky" colour in Asia ? so presumably all Asian clubs play in red? They must sell shed loads of "change" strips then !!!!!!!!
Jem,
Paul's spot on; a short summary here...
http://www.evertonfc.com/history/everton-the-begining.html
The best book I've read about the early years is "Football on Merseyside" by Percy M Young, a ToffeeWeb review here...
http://www.toffeeweb.com/club/stuff/books/fom.asp
As I mentioned earlier, my old grandad used to call us "The Midnight Dribblers" ? he said early Everton used to train at night under gas lamps; anyone else know of this?
I'd love to see the black and ruby kit, perhaps for the 125th FL anniversary, with 1888 or 1/12 or 'Founder Member' on our shirts.
Sounding like a right anorak, now! I wonder if the wonderful marketing machine at Everton would be bothered...
Paul's spot on; a short summary here...
http://www.evertonfc.com/history/everton-the-begining.html
The best book I've read about the early years is "Football on Merseyside" by Percy M Young, a ToffeeWeb review here...
http://www.toffeeweb.com/club/stuff/books/fom.asp
As I mentioned earlier, my old grandad used to call us "The Midnight Dribblers" ? he said early Everton used to train at night under gas lamps; anyone else know of this?
I'd love to see the black and ruby kit, perhaps for the 125th FL anniversary, with 1888 or 1/12 or 'Founder Member' on our shirts.
Sounding like a right anorak, now! I wonder if the wonderful marketing machine at Everton would be bothered...
I'm sure I've seen reference to "The Midnight Dribblers" in a number of books. Surely a decent Everton Website would make reference to this?
Ah yes, wait a mo! Everton before World War I
Good memory, Phil!
Ah yes, wait a mo! Everton before World War I
Good memory, Phil!
Cheers Michael - I should have known! just shows how much info is in the Toffeeweb Towers attic
Grandad was adamant his own dad used to watch the players train at night and we really were the best local club in the country, a true focal point for the working man in Liverpool
A docker and socialist, he also told me going to the match was a prime mover behind the reduction in the working week in the 1870s to under 60 hours, so workers could get Sat afternoon free
God, I wish I'd had the sense to record my talks with him
Grandad was adamant his own dad used to watch the players train at night and we really were the best local club in the country, a true focal point for the working man in Liverpool
A docker and socialist, he also told me going to the match was a prime mover behind the reduction in the working week in the 1870s to under 60 hours, so workers could get Sat afternoon free
God, I wish I'd had the sense to record my talks with him
We should save that Black Watch kit for when BK sells off all the Everton crown jewels: Fellaini, Baines, and Jagielka.
Oh well... we will still have Osman.
Oh well... we will still have Osman.
Phil, the way to go might be to have the addition of 2 gold stars, one on either side of the badge. Under the left star (as you look at the badge) FMFL, founding member football league and on the other, FMPL founding member premier league.
Lets see all the so called big club / money boys beat that. I think from memory only 7 teams can claim the distinction.
Lets see all the so called big club / money boys beat that. I think from memory only 7 teams can claim the distinction.
I was always told it was the 'Moonlight Dribblers'
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848 Posted 09/05/2012 at 14:28:09
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