Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
How far away are we?
54 Comments: Since I gave up my season ticket last year, I've had to reign in my opinions this season because I don't feel I can argue with much conviction if I'm only watching 3 minutes of highlights at the end of Match of the Day.
I went yesterday and we played some sublime stuff. We absolutely trampled over Newcastle and instead of those nervous-watching-the-clock-tick-down-while-we-hold-on-for-a-1-0-win moments we're so familiar with under Moyes, I honestly didn't want the game to end.
There's that old sense of deja vu, having finished the season so well again. I'm sure many others feel the same though, if we can hold on to what we've got, buy Pienaar and pick up a handy right winger, surely we could launch an assault on the top 4 next year?!!
I'm interested to hear from some of the regular match goers about where we need to strengthen. Are we really that far away from Arsenal or Tottenham?
As much as I've enjoyed our 2nd half of the season form, I'm still left shitting myself that the manager's and team's hard work will be completely undermined again this summer...
Alan Clarke, Posted 14/05/2012 at 09:09:52
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If we have an injury free season, and get a few wins under our belts early on we could challenge top 4. Big IF.
I think we're as many as 5 players away from top 4,Chelsea were awful this year and finished outside the top 4 and I think they still finished with 8 points more than us.
How far away are we? This season six places and thirty odd points.
Hopefully we can get some buys early on and freshen the team up, until then it will be more of the same.
Teams knowing exactly how we are to play and then closing down the Baines wing and roughing up Fellaini, if he is still here.
Putting crosses near Howard and attacking down our left..etc etc
Pienaar is a must. I knew he wouldn't be able to replicate what he has with Baines and hopefully he will see that and force Old Arry's hand for a transfer.
Hopefully we can get some buys early on and freshen the team up, until then it will be more of the same.
Teams knowing exactly how we are to play and then closing down the Baines wing and roughing up Fellaini, if he is still here.
Putting crosses near Howard and attacking down our left..etc etc
Pienaar is a must. I knew he wouldn't be able to replicate what he has with Baines and hopefully he will see that and force Old Arry's hand for a transfer.
I don't see how we can challenge for the top four. Firstly, our squad is completely insufficient as James argued. I would then argue, that only Heitinga, Baines, Fellaini and Jelavic (of those we own, thus excluding Pienarr) are top four players. The rest are either good top 10 players (Howard, Distin, Jags who is potentially a top four player, etc etc) or mid to low Premier League quality/high Championship quality players.
Chelski, who were awful this year as you remark Paul, with a whole team fit, have top 4 players on the bench. To have Essien, Meirelles, Torres, Luiz/Cahill in reserve, is something that we cannot hope to match. We are completely outgunned. On top of that, Top 4 is now far more competitive. The FA Cup finalist and League Cup finalist could only muster eighth, The Champions League Finalist and FA Cup winners could only manage sixth. In the past 15 months, Liverpool and Chelski have spent approaching £300million between them. In the same period we have spent... £7million ish?
How can we hope to compete with them? It has nought to do with mentality (although we clearly have an issue in Derbies) and everything to do with players. To finish top four next season, we would need to bring in 5 top players, without letting anyone significant go, and hope 3 of the top 6 had poor seasons. It is an impossibility.
Until we get a buyer... by which point we may be years away from challenging for anything, we are stuffed. We can retain a hope of winning a cup, most obviously the Carling Cup, and a hope of getting into Europe (which we couldn't cope with given our squad depth) but any Champions League place would require a miracle.
Chelski, who were awful this year as you remark Paul, with a whole team fit, have top 4 players on the bench. To have Essien, Meirelles, Torres, Luiz/Cahill in reserve, is something that we cannot hope to match. We are completely outgunned. On top of that, Top 4 is now far more competitive. The FA Cup finalist and League Cup finalist could only muster eighth, The Champions League Finalist and FA Cup winners could only manage sixth. In the past 15 months, Liverpool and Chelski have spent approaching £300million between them. In the same period we have spent... £7million ish?
How can we hope to compete with them? It has nought to do with mentality (although we clearly have an issue in Derbies) and everything to do with players. To finish top four next season, we would need to bring in 5 top players, without letting anyone significant go, and hope 3 of the top 6 had poor seasons. It is an impossibility.
Until we get a buyer... by which point we may be years away from challenging for anything, we are stuffed. We can retain a hope of winning a cup, most obviously the Carling Cup, and a hope of getting into Europe (which we couldn't cope with given our squad depth) but any Champions League place would require a miracle.
James Martin is spot on. Arguably our best player in the resurgent second half of the season (along with Jelly), Pienaar was not good enough for Spurs. We are a long way behind the top 5...
We're as far away as ever and you should be shitting yourself.
We can catch Newcastle and stay above Liverpool if we can keep our best first team; we can catch Spurs if we keep our best first team and make big signings at right back,right wing and top cover for goalkeeper,left back and centre forward. Without major financial investent we can never catch Arsenal,Chelsea,Man U and Man City.
So, in my most optimistic moments a Europa place may be possible but certainly nothing more.
The most likely event will be that we will not receive the necessary investment and will lose our best players and will not be able to sign adequate replacements.
Our improved form in the 2nd half of the season will alert the football vultures.
I really expect Baines,Jelavic and maybe Fellaini to be sold this summer. Will Pienaar want to re-sign if Baines goes? Will we attract players to sign who can improve us when we can't retain and develop a competitive first team.
It will take an incredible amount of loyalty from these player to stay and the way football is today I just can't see that happening.
I think we hit lucky with grabbing Jelavic from Rangers who were desperate to sell; lucky to get Piennar back because he didn't fit in at Spurs and lucky to get those short bursts of energy from Donovan/Drenthe.
I think reality will hit us hard this Summer. We will lose our best players and will not be competitive in the transfer market.
I cannot see us getting 7th or higher next season and will struggle to be in the top 10.
We can catch Newcastle and stay above Liverpool if we can keep our best first team; we can catch Spurs if we keep our best first team and make big signings at right back,right wing and top cover for goalkeeper,left back and centre forward. Without major financial investent we can never catch Arsenal,Chelsea,Man U and Man City.
So, in my most optimistic moments a Europa place may be possible but certainly nothing more.
The most likely event will be that we will not receive the necessary investment and will lose our best players and will not be able to sign adequate replacements.
Our improved form in the 2nd half of the season will alert the football vultures.
I really expect Baines,Jelavic and maybe Fellaini to be sold this summer. Will Pienaar want to re-sign if Baines goes? Will we attract players to sign who can improve us when we can't retain and develop a competitive first team.
It will take an incredible amount of loyalty from these player to stay and the way football is today I just can't see that happening.
I think we hit lucky with grabbing Jelavic from Rangers who were desperate to sell; lucky to get Piennar back because he didn't fit in at Spurs and lucky to get those short bursts of energy from Donovan/Drenthe.
I think reality will hit us hard this Summer. We will lose our best players and will not be competitive in the transfer market.
I cannot see us getting 7th or higher next season and will struggle to be in the top 10.
It has to be argued though that this current squad is better than the one that got us 4th in 2005.
Therefore I would say that it is possible but only if we get off to a good start (like we did in 2004/5).
As usual we have shown in the second half of the season that we can get a good run going, it just happens too late for it to make any real impact on the league positions.
Having said all this, another 3-4 players of real quality signed would be nice!
Therefore I would say that it is possible but only if we get off to a good start (like we did in 2004/5).
As usual we have shown in the second half of the season that we can get a good run going, it just happens too late for it to make any real impact on the league positions.
Having said all this, another 3-4 players of real quality signed would be nice!
James Martin (887) - you say..
"The two things holding us back are squad depth and mentality, and no not what some perceive as Moyes's negative defensive mentality. Mainly that this team doesn't really play well under pressure, at the start of the season when expectation is upon them they stutter just enough so that they have nothing left to lose and then they start playing well around January"
Odd, in writing something that attempts to absolve Moyes, you produce a paragraph that is, imo, incredibly damning of him.
You say "This team doesn't play well at the start of the season when expectation is upon them", as though the manager is Eddie Large or Phil Silvers.
Fact: If we can't get it together in the first half of the season, IT-IS-DOWN-TO-HIM.
(yes I know, he's not directly responsible for every defensive fluff, or own goal or bad decision, but it IS down to him).
For me, since the second half against Swansea, we have (in the main) attempted to play football with a bit of thought behind it.
A more attacking, more attractive, more intelligent game (oh - and more successful).
I'm happy to give Moyes the credit for it (either coz he came up with it, or stepped out of the way of the players or..whatever), but he's been manager for the WHOLE season, not just the second half.
Pienaar and Jelavic have certainly improved the side/squad BUT saying 'we didn't have them for the first half of the season', doesn't/shouldn't excuse the clueless, headless chicken-shite football served up for the first half of the season.
There was (Is) NO good reason (ie: excuse) to be playing the 'style' of football we were (and consequently getting the crappy results we were) and that WAS down to Moyes
"The two things holding us back are squad depth and mentality, and no not what some perceive as Moyes's negative defensive mentality. Mainly that this team doesn't really play well under pressure, at the start of the season when expectation is upon them they stutter just enough so that they have nothing left to lose and then they start playing well around January"
Odd, in writing something that attempts to absolve Moyes, you produce a paragraph that is, imo, incredibly damning of him.
You say "This team doesn't play well at the start of the season when expectation is upon them", as though the manager is Eddie Large or Phil Silvers.
Fact: If we can't get it together in the first half of the season, IT-IS-DOWN-TO-HIM.
(yes I know, he's not directly responsible for every defensive fluff, or own goal or bad decision, but it IS down to him).
For me, since the second half against Swansea, we have (in the main) attempted to play football with a bit of thought behind it.
A more attacking, more attractive, more intelligent game (oh - and more successful).
I'm happy to give Moyes the credit for it (either coz he came up with it, or stepped out of the way of the players or..whatever), but he's been manager for the WHOLE season, not just the second half.
Pienaar and Jelavic have certainly improved the side/squad BUT saying 'we didn't have them for the first half of the season', doesn't/shouldn't excuse the clueless, headless chicken-shite football served up for the first half of the season.
There was (Is) NO good reason (ie: excuse) to be playing the 'style' of football we were (and consequently getting the crappy results we were) and that WAS down to Moyes
Alan, I have not renewed my s/ticket for next season, having had one for more years than I care to remember.
One of the reasons is that, in my opinion there has been too many false dawns, by that I mean we seem to build up hopes, and in doing so have the Analfield fiasco, the semifinal, and the Wolves result, when most fans were really looking for a good end of season.
I'm going to have break from committing myself for 19 home games, and choose my matches.
You never know, I may regret my decision?
Once a Blue Always a Blue!!
One of the reasons is that, in my opinion there has been too many false dawns, by that I mean we seem to build up hopes, and in doing so have the Analfield fiasco, the semifinal, and the Wolves result, when most fans were really looking for a good end of season.
I'm going to have break from committing myself for 19 home games, and choose my matches.
You never know, I may regret my decision?
Once a Blue Always a Blue!!
For me a more commanding keeper a more intelligent No.10(possibly ross) and some genuine pace out wide right and we have a first 11 capable of beating anybody.
This year we have been very lucky with injuries and it would need to go that way again for us to get near the top 4.
This year we have been very lucky with injuries and it would need to go that way again for us to get near the top 4.
Totally agree with James #884.
Top money buys you players with a winning mentality and while we have one or two Neville,Heitinga,Cahill two are are the wrong age and no longer 90 minute men.
We also have a very limited squad which has relied on loan players (Pienaar,Strac, Donovan and Drenthe) heavily.
we also finished 13 points behind Spurs who fell away beadly at the end of the season.
The league is a marathon not a sprint and with Chelsea and the RS looking at much better season next year together with Villa,QPR, Sunderland and Fulham it is essential we invest in the squad even to stand still.
I really hope I regret saying this but top 4 is a pipedream and requires a really good squad and a lot of luck and officials decisions going for you neither of which we seem to enjoy.
Top money buys you players with a winning mentality and while we have one or two Neville,Heitinga,Cahill two are are the wrong age and no longer 90 minute men.
We also have a very limited squad which has relied on loan players (Pienaar,Strac, Donovan and Drenthe) heavily.
we also finished 13 points behind Spurs who fell away beadly at the end of the season.
The league is a marathon not a sprint and with Chelsea and the RS looking at much better season next year together with Villa,QPR, Sunderland and Fulham it is essential we invest in the squad even to stand still.
I really hope I regret saying this but top 4 is a pipedream and requires a really good squad and a lot of luck and officials decisions going for you neither of which we seem to enjoy.
We're as far away as we were 5 years ago..and we still need the same players.
The top teams are moving further away from us each year, we increased our points tally on last last year but didn't move any closer to getting into Europe again.
I have already renewed but it was a close call this year.....maybe not next year, especially as I will be trying for a family with the missus.
I have already renewed but it was a close call this year.....maybe not next year, especially as I will be trying for a family with the missus.
Till we play at Anfield we won't know.
Is the "better play" an end of season, nothing really on it sorta thing? - or has the penny finally dropped with the cautious celt.
Believe it when I see it.
Is the "better play" an end of season, nothing really on it sorta thing? - or has the penny finally dropped with the cautious celt.
Believe it when I see it.
It would be nice for once to have the Goodison derby in the second half of the season so that we could just roll the over when we're in our purple patch at home rather than meeting them at Goodison when we're awful in October.
James the thing is i'm sure the last few Goodison derbies have been while Liverpool have been in poor form as well yet we still dont beat them.
"I have already renewed but it was a close call this year.....maybe not next year, especially as I will be trying for a family with the missus."
Jesus Tony, I know we blame Moyes for most things... but reducing your sperm count?
Jesus Tony, I know we blame Moyes for most things... but reducing your sperm count?
I know Paul there really is no excuse not to beat them, I just hate that whenever we have a ghead of steam up in the second half of the season there is always the anfield derby which we inevitably lose usually involving a red card, injury and morale sapping loss that both picks up Liverpool's season and ruins ours (not the case this year but who knows what psychological impact that 3-0 had in the semi). It would just be so much better to have them at Goodison when we're smack in form.
It is a bit strange that for as long as I can remember now the Goodison derby comes first.
To say Pienaar isnt good enough for Spurs is a bit harsh.. He is competing for a wing position against Bale. (Bale can play on both wings as well.) He would get into any team in Europe.
I hope he comes back, the way he left, money wise, left a sour taste for me personally, but that's my problem. Pienaar would have made all the difference at Wembley, I think both himself and the squad know that... let's hope he can pay us back a bit!
I hope he comes back, the way he left, money wise, left a sour taste for me personally, but that's my problem. Pienaar would have made all the difference at Wembley, I think both himself and the squad know that... let's hope he can pay us back a bit!
Paul 894,
Chelsea were awful this year and finished outside the top 4 and I think they still finished with 8 points more than us.
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True, but we were dire til mid January. We clicked vs Fulham, and God Knows what - partly the drive of Donovan, but we grew, and we purred from mid March - the Swansea game on.
There is evidently something about the first half of the season, which if not understood and then addressed will scupper all pretensions.
I do not really know what we have in Barkley and the ex-Benfica man,,,,Junior was it?
But apart from the obvious; Get Pienaar! Reminds me of a grainy and gritty old Britfilm, possibly Caine's best...but anyway, aprt from P-nuts, another striker, and perhaps a young defender. I reckon we'll need a bit of youth back there.
And that is to get us a Newcastle type season, like we were doing 3-4 years ago: ie best of the rest, and with a bit of luck, a little more....
Chelsea were awful this year and finished outside the top 4 and I think they still finished with 8 points more than us.
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True, but we were dire til mid January. We clicked vs Fulham, and God Knows what - partly the drive of Donovan, but we grew, and we purred from mid March - the Swansea game on.
There is evidently something about the first half of the season, which if not understood and then addressed will scupper all pretensions.
I do not really know what we have in Barkley and the ex-Benfica man,,,,Junior was it?
But apart from the obvious; Get Pienaar! Reminds me of a grainy and gritty old Britfilm, possibly Caine's best...but anyway, aprt from P-nuts, another striker, and perhaps a young defender. I reckon we'll need a bit of youth back there.
And that is to get us a Newcastle type season, like we were doing 3-4 years ago: ie best of the rest, and with a bit of luck, a little more....
That Pienarr didn't play at Spurs was Harry's error...if he had retained him in the squad, and used him in the second half of the season, they would have finished third. But that he belongs to Spurs, and wasn't used (and that they managed to come fourth) indicates the utter superiority of their depth.
It is not a case of getting the first half of the season right, and then we will get fourth or fifth or whatever any of those with such theories imagine. Some teams start will, others finish well. Even the likes of City, Arsenal and Spurs have clear form periods, and we are late starters. Clearly there are other issues though. No incoming players...players leaving late or/and being linked the whole of the summer. To place all the blame at Moyes' feet seems strange. And really, how good did you think how football was going to be at the start of the season? Our only creative player was Osman after Arteta left (which was a significant mental blow aside from his considerable benefit to the team), and in that, is one of our major issues. That Pienarr has been so influential since he re-joined is testament to his ability (And freshness) and the complete lack of creativity elsewhere in our team.
It is not a case of getting the first half of the season right, and then we will get fourth or fifth or whatever any of those with such theories imagine. Some teams start will, others finish well. Even the likes of City, Arsenal and Spurs have clear form periods, and we are late starters. Clearly there are other issues though. No incoming players...players leaving late or/and being linked the whole of the summer. To place all the blame at Moyes' feet seems strange. And really, how good did you think how football was going to be at the start of the season? Our only creative player was Osman after Arteta left (which was a significant mental blow aside from his considerable benefit to the team), and in that, is one of our major issues. That Pienarr has been so influential since he re-joined is testament to his ability (And freshness) and the complete lack of creativity elsewhere in our team.
It's funny how many people are on here saying we don't stand a chance because we have no money and use Chelsea's and Liverpool's relative failed seasons (from a league posistion) as an example. All the while, choosing to ignore the exploits of a certain Newcastle team that finished above Chelsea and Liverpool having spent a lot lot less. (£15m on 4 key players?)
Also the first post seems to blame the players' mentality for our poor starts... isn't part of the job of the manager to motivate players? He signed them all so how is he not responsible for this in anyway? I would have expected that as part of the £3m salary package.
We finished well this season but I'm not holding my breath as this is just Groundhog Day, again.
Re the squad, as for about the last 6 years, we need a pacey right winger but I guess we can await a few more defenders or defensive midfielders.
Also the first post seems to blame the players' mentality for our poor starts... isn't part of the job of the manager to motivate players? He signed them all so how is he not responsible for this in anyway? I would have expected that as part of the £3m salary package.
We finished well this season but I'm not holding my breath as this is just Groundhog Day, again.
Re the squad, as for about the last 6 years, we need a pacey right winger but I guess we can await a few more defenders or defensive midfielders.
Tony J
The top teams are moving further away from us each year, ...
Don't agree with that. City obviously have obviously become a new giant; but Utd, Arse and Chelsea getting baetter. Not from what I have seen, they aren't.
And Liverpool; we threw away a golden opportunity to get back to the Final. It was criminal.
We beat Spurs, Chelsea, Newcastle and City, and hit four past Man U at OT. And remember, the Fair Play rules are coming in. The only effect of that can be is to weaken the giants.
They can still buy there way to the top, but not by as much.
The gap is not widening anymore.
The top teams are moving further away from us each year, ...
Don't agree with that. City obviously have obviously become a new giant; but Utd, Arse and Chelsea getting baetter. Not from what I have seen, they aren't.
And Liverpool; we threw away a golden opportunity to get back to the Final. It was criminal.
We beat Spurs, Chelsea, Newcastle and City, and hit four past Man U at OT. And remember, the Fair Play rules are coming in. The only effect of that can be is to weaken the giants.
They can still buy there way to the top, but not by as much.
The gap is not widening anymore.
Eugene our January trading clearly made all the difference. A dynamic centre forward plus two good wide players and a strong central midfield option changed our play considerably. In addition Fellaini came into form (or was that to do with having better players around?).
In any team, if you dont have the players to perform consistently a manager is in an impossible position. I defy anyone to perform well with the squad we had in August. I said at the time we may be relegation candidates.
For me it was nowt to do with style, although Moyes did go on the defensive which can make a team look bad (it always looks extra shit when defensive formations fail, despite it being a valid approach) It was poor player quality - no Arteta, Piennar, an ageing Cahill, injured Osman, and probably the poorest midfield in the league.
Im actually more optimistic than at any time since Arteta was in his pomp. Our squad is wafer thin though . As others have said, a few injuries to key players and we suffer disproportionately.
In any team, if you dont have the players to perform consistently a manager is in an impossible position. I defy anyone to perform well with the squad we had in August. I said at the time we may be relegation candidates.
For me it was nowt to do with style, although Moyes did go on the defensive which can make a team look bad (it always looks extra shit when defensive formations fail, despite it being a valid approach) It was poor player quality - no Arteta, Piennar, an ageing Cahill, injured Osman, and probably the poorest midfield in the league.
Im actually more optimistic than at any time since Arteta was in his pomp. Our squad is wafer thin though . As others have said, a few injuries to key players and we suffer disproportionately.
Can I just remind everyone that the Goodison derby this year was not a case of us being piss poor and being tonked by the shite. We were actually the better side by some distance until Rodwell was wrongly sent off.
Even after he was sent off we quite easily held our own (although we were mainly defending) until that terrible deflection. There was no way back from that with 10 men, especially in the heat of that day.
Please don't bend the facts to make a point!
Even after he was sent off we quite easily held our own (although we were mainly defending) until that terrible deflection. There was no way back from that with 10 men, especially in the heat of that day.
Please don't bend the facts to make a point!
It may be that bottom line, I am an optimist (although that could be argued as just plain mad), but I think that if we hold onto our best players, get Pienaar back on our books and maybe just get a bit lucky with a right sided player, then we may just cause a shock next season. I really hoped that we would get top four in the 10-11 season, but injuries blew that out of the water.
So, why the optimism? Simply, for me I believe that the football tournaments this summer will have a big knock on effect for the teams with plenty of ?Euro-stars?. Even the Olympics will impact on some. The likes of the shite get off to a really early start in the ?europa? and that should put paid to them as competition. I do not believe that Newcastle will show so well, so really I believe that if the board were to stick their necks out, then maybe just maybe we really could go on an amazing run and shock the ?big 5?.
We need to be positive this season and just have faith. Surely the gods will favour us for a change, the tide may be turning.
NSNO, well it should mean something, so maybe just maybe this next season could be ?our? time.
After all IYKYH, we are a GOT.
So, why the optimism? Simply, for me I believe that the football tournaments this summer will have a big knock on effect for the teams with plenty of ?Euro-stars?. Even the Olympics will impact on some. The likes of the shite get off to a really early start in the ?europa? and that should put paid to them as competition. I do not believe that Newcastle will show so well, so really I believe that if the board were to stick their necks out, then maybe just maybe we really could go on an amazing run and shock the ?big 5?.
We need to be positive this season and just have faith. Surely the gods will favour us for a change, the tide may be turning.
NSNO, well it should mean something, so maybe just maybe this next season could be ?our? time.
After all IYKYH, we are a GOT.
Tony J 943
Good job you clearly stated you were trying for a family "with the missus".
Bet she's pleased with that clarification.
Good job you clearly stated you were trying for a family "with the missus".
Bet she's pleased with that clarification.
We are Pienaar and a right winger away from having a first team able to compete against the top 4. We still don't have the squad though. We potentially have some good youngsters who could step in and offer support during the season (and gain vital experience in the mean time) but an injury to Jelavic would be catastrophic for our season.
I read from Pienaar's emotions in the interview after the Newcastle game that he knows he cant come back. Why else would you cry if it was under your control!! Perhaps part of him coming now was with a promise to Harry to return for next season. I honestly think we wont get him.
As for the other players, I think we need to face a bit of reality now so we dont get our hopes up. We could only afford the Jan deals because of the Arteta/Bily? money. If we dont sell one of our key assets I cant see us being able to buy anyone significant. Nothing has changed financially. We have nothing left to mortgage. Our only assets are the players. We may lose some fringe people (Yobo?) but it will raise peanuts and would allow us wages for a loan or two (but Moyes wouldnt do this unless it improves our playing squad and how many decent loans do you get - not many).
Not being pessimistic as I have enjoyed a lot of this season and dont see any reason why we cant have a similar one (even with no purchases) as the players will be more confident than last close season, as long as we dont sell anyone significant.
The big questions are do we cash in anyone to gamble on improving next year (e.g. Baines or Jags out and 2 good purchases in?) if we get no inward investment (after 10 years of searching we wont find anyone by August will we!)
As for the other players, I think we need to face a bit of reality now so we dont get our hopes up. We could only afford the Jan deals because of the Arteta/Bily? money. If we dont sell one of our key assets I cant see us being able to buy anyone significant. Nothing has changed financially. We have nothing left to mortgage. Our only assets are the players. We may lose some fringe people (Yobo?) but it will raise peanuts and would allow us wages for a loan or two (but Moyes wouldnt do this unless it improves our playing squad and how many decent loans do you get - not many).
Not being pessimistic as I have enjoyed a lot of this season and dont see any reason why we cant have a similar one (even with no purchases) as the players will be more confident than last close season, as long as we dont sell anyone significant.
The big questions are do we cash in anyone to gamble on improving next year (e.g. Baines or Jags out and 2 good purchases in?) if we get no inward investment (after 10 years of searching we wont find anyone by August will we!)
Ben, I'de be happy if we sold no one but got rid of the likes of Neville, Cahill, Anichebe, Drenthe, Straq, Macfadden and use the extra room in wages to bring in a couple of frees on a permanent contract, a couple of loanees to have a look at and promote a couple of youth players.
Dont have to fet rid of them all but at least start clearing the deadwood so we dont have to do it all in one go in 1-2 years time when the likes of Distin, Osman and Hibbo with also be near retirement age.
Dont have to fet rid of them all but at least start clearing the deadwood so we dont have to do it all in one go in 1-2 years time when the likes of Distin, Osman and Hibbo with also be near retirement age.
Denis, how can these players be "dead wood" as you put it? I'm not going to bother totalling it up but I would imagine neville, cahill, anichebe, drenthe and straq have over 100 appearances between them this season.
They are not "dead wood", they are first team players or squad players depending on which you are talking about. Thats not so easy to replace with free's.
They are not "dead wood", they are first team players or squad players depending on which you are talking about. Thats not so easy to replace with free's.
Sam, we were way behind the top five before the January window, not now, we are better than Newcastle, if we played them ten times I would bet we would come out with more wins.
If our manager shows a bit more bottle, and IF we can keep these players and add two or three more, we can challenge the top five with the added bonus of not playing Euro football which will take its toll on the Shite and the Geordies next year.
If our manager shows a bit more bottle, and IF we can keep these players and add two or three more, we can challenge the top five with the added bonus of not playing Euro football which will take its toll on the Shite and the Geordies next year.
Fact is really great players cost £20 mill upwards.
I mean tell me THIS was not money well spent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7RGn4FWeHQ&feature=youtu.be
I mean tell me THIS was not money well spent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7RGn4FWeHQ&feature=youtu.be
Persactly EJ - look at that f'n donkey Jelavic
Classic Eugene
Ben
If we dont sell one of our key assets I cant see us being able to buy anyone significant. Nothing has changed financially.
--------------
I think everyone knows that Ben, hence the spiky thread last week (who to sell?).
But you're other point:
Our only assets are the players. We may lose some fringe people (Yobo?) but it will raise peanuts : That'd do. Bring back P-nuts!
If we dont sell one of our key assets I cant see us being able to buy anyone significant. Nothing has changed financially.
--------------
I think everyone knows that Ben, hence the spiky thread last week (who to sell?).
But you're other point:
Our only assets are the players. We may lose some fringe people (Yobo?) but it will raise peanuts : That'd do. Bring back P-nuts!
When you think that the Premeirship was decided on goal difference and also with basically the last kick of the season it is indicative of just how close teams are to each other over 38 games these days.
Everton have finished in style,finally have a first class finisher in Jelavic and have Fellaini and his midfield mates playing more consitantly. This was a breath of fresh air in relation to most of what happened before January.
However,a word of caution. We have seen this before and gotten excited,relishing the next season only to be disappointed after a few games. We still have weaknesses which have to be ironed out. Despite criticism of the defence they kept the goals against tally pretty low with only 3 other teams conceding less. However they are all getting long in the tooth and one or two may be a tad slower next season.
Some fringe players who have not been consistant this season need to be let go to free up wage space. We all have different opinions on that issue but Tim Cahill may be the first to be considered past his best.
You just know Spurs will want a big fee for Peanuts and if Moyes cannot get him back then we need a new option in his place.
Rodwell is a concern when he gets fit as is Barklay but Gueye despite some eyecatching appearances amy not want to stick around as a benchwarmer.
On the season as a whole one can only say inconsistancy by a number of players and then inconsistancy playing as a unit was the real problem right up to January and has to be addressed before next season.
Everton have finished in style,finally have a first class finisher in Jelavic and have Fellaini and his midfield mates playing more consitantly. This was a breath of fresh air in relation to most of what happened before January.
However,a word of caution. We have seen this before and gotten excited,relishing the next season only to be disappointed after a few games. We still have weaknesses which have to be ironed out. Despite criticism of the defence they kept the goals against tally pretty low with only 3 other teams conceding less. However they are all getting long in the tooth and one or two may be a tad slower next season.
Some fringe players who have not been consistant this season need to be let go to free up wage space. We all have different opinions on that issue but Tim Cahill may be the first to be considered past his best.
You just know Spurs will want a big fee for Peanuts and if Moyes cannot get him back then we need a new option in his place.
Rodwell is a concern when he gets fit as is Barklay but Gueye despite some eyecatching appearances amy not want to stick around as a benchwarmer.
On the season as a whole one can only say inconsistancy by a number of players and then inconsistancy playing as a unit was the real problem right up to January and has to be addressed before next season.
The more I think about it the more I think we are a million miles from top 4. We lack quality or depth in certain areas which most of the teams above us have. We simply need big bucks to start challenging.
Here's one for you, a blue I see at work today told me that someone he knows who works for Everton has told him we will have a few quid this summer.
I rolled my eyes as you are all now.
Here's one for you, a blue I see at work today told me that someone he knows who works for Everton has told him we will have a few quid this summer.
I rolled my eyes as you are all now.
The biggest danger is that i expect at least 2 or 3 who finished below us to have big money to improve and thats not including the teams who finished above us who will all spend big in a attempt to improve still further.
Its very hard to break into the top 4 and in some ways your hoping other teams waste there transfer kitty on shite to improve are chances.
We have to keep believing and the way we went about things after Christmas showed were capable of finishing higher.
Strong home form and beating the likes of Bolton and Qpr at home is a must. The season has come to a end at the wrong time for us but there is plenty to be positive about looking forward to next season.
Its very hard to break into the top 4 and in some ways your hoping other teams waste there transfer kitty on shite to improve are chances.
We have to keep believing and the way we went about things after Christmas showed were capable of finishing higher.
Strong home form and beating the likes of Bolton and Qpr at home is a must. The season has come to a end at the wrong time for us but there is plenty to be positive about looking forward to next season.
I agree Karl. Not only will the likes of chelsea, City, Utd, Spurs and Arsenal probably spend three or four (or ten!) times what will but even the teams around us such as Liverpool, sunderland, Newcastle, QPR, Villa and Fulham will probably all be able to strengthen considerably more than we will....there's simply no getting away from the fact that over the course of a season money and player resources will be a determining factor.
Until we are able to compare to the top 4 off the pitch in terms of transfer fees and wages the gap will remain.
Until we are able to compare to the top 4 off the pitch in terms of transfer fees and wages the gap will remain.
"a more intelligent No.10(possibly ross) and some genuine pace out wide right and we have a first 11 capable of beating anybody."
"We're as far away as we were 5 years ago..and we still need the same players."
Exactly.
I write every summer that we're two players away from something a really quality team, we never sign them. I usually defend Moyes against criticism, but ten years he's been here and we still don't have a single player whose best position is wide right midfield.
Three years after the Chelsea cup final and Osman is still our first choice right midfielder (I'm not Osman bashing, I just think he's a central player). The other options are a right back (Coleman) and a Centre Forward (Anichebe). Given that Pienaar isn't our player we're actually three away at the moment, and they're all three attacking midfield/creative positions.
"We're as far away as we were 5 years ago..and we still need the same players."
Exactly.
I write every summer that we're two players away from something a really quality team, we never sign them. I usually defend Moyes against criticism, but ten years he's been here and we still don't have a single player whose best position is wide right midfield.
Three years after the Chelsea cup final and Osman is still our first choice right midfielder (I'm not Osman bashing, I just think he's a central player). The other options are a right back (Coleman) and a Centre Forward (Anichebe). Given that Pienaar isn't our player we're actually three away at the moment, and they're all three attacking midfield/creative positions.
Think Gibson could score a lot of goals for us next season.
Keeps it tidy in midfield, but a little like Cahill seems to be on the end of a lot moves (shots rather headers mind). Happy to admit big humble pie, I think he could score 10 plus a season.
Keeps it tidy in midfield, but a little like Cahill seems to be on the end of a lot moves (shots rather headers mind). Happy to admit big humble pie, I think he could score 10 plus a season.
Ian, I think he could but won't because he will be the one told to sit in front of the back 4 all game in what was Fellaini's role and the reason he stopped scoring.
May be, Dave.
He was dead unlucky on Sunday with four or five decent efforts. He just seems to be in the pocket for pull-backs on the edge of the D, and always seems to connect sweet and low.
Would love Pienaar and Moses.
He was dead unlucky on Sunday with four or five decent efforts. He just seems to be in the pocket for pull-backs on the edge of the D, and always seems to connect sweet and low.
Would love Pienaar and Moses.
Ian,
I don't think he'll get 10 but even 5-7 from our deepest midfielder will be a bonus as we aren't big scorers from all over the pitch, which you need to be to do anything.
I don't think he'll get 10 but even 5-7 from our deepest midfielder will be a bonus as we aren't big scorers from all over the pitch, which you need to be to do anything.
Honestly guys, the very best we can hope for is to start September with the current playing staff intact.
We all know the dire straits the club are in money-wise and who is to blame for it, but that situation will only get worse before it gets better.
With FFP looming and everyone knowing we don't have a pot to piss in, the days of Rooney- and Lescott-style bids are long gone.
Ask yourself in which positions we could trade-up if we sold the incumbent player?
Exactly. See you in September...
We all know the dire straits the club are in money-wise and who is to blame for it, but that situation will only get worse before it gets better.
With FFP looming and everyone knowing we don't have a pot to piss in, the days of Rooney- and Lescott-style bids are long gone.
Ask yourself in which positions we could trade-up if we sold the incumbent player?
Exactly. See you in September...
what worries me is that if Pienaar proves too expensive then we will not progress at all, Efc are not going to throw big money even on wages and some of the free's out there ie Rodallega will want a fair wedge each week.
th
there is always the problem that Blue Bill doesnt really want us in europe anyway because then the squad is way too small and he would be expected to find the money to bulk it out. The Europa league hardly raises any money anyway so what is the point...He is happy with best of the rest I am sure...
th
there is always the problem that Blue Bill doesnt really want us in europe anyway because then the squad is way too small and he would be expected to find the money to bulk it out. The Europa league hardly raises any money anyway so what is the point...He is happy with best of the rest I am sure...
Steve
The thing is we do have the wages for free transfers or cheap players from relegated clubs but Moyes would have to ship out his favourites first.
Can anyone see him fucking Neville off to be able to give his wages to someone like Rodagella?
The thing is we do have the wages for free transfers or cheap players from relegated clubs but Moyes would have to ship out his favourites first.
Can anyone see him fucking Neville off to be able to give his wages to someone like Rodagella?
Paul
To be fair to Moyes the reason he is loathe to let players leave is because we already operate with a small squad that relies on young players coming in when we get injuries.
To be fair to Moyes the reason he is loathe to let players leave is because we already operate with a small squad that relies on young players coming in when we get injuries.
Stephen
Yeah I can understand your point but letting one player go so we can bring in another means the size of the squad stays the same.
My point is will Moyes get rid of a player who is old,shit and not needed as there is already 2 other right backs at the club so he can use the wages to bring in younger players were we are short on numbers and quality?
I dont believe he will because he is so stubborn and his loyality to his favourites is more important to him than whats best for the team.
Yeah I can understand your point but letting one player go so we can bring in another means the size of the squad stays the same.
My point is will Moyes get rid of a player who is old,shit and not needed as there is already 2 other right backs at the club so he can use the wages to bring in younger players were we are short on numbers and quality?
I dont believe he will because he is so stubborn and his loyality to his favourites is more important to him than whats best for the team.
In terms of finance, squad size and depth we're leagues away from the top 3 or 4 teams.
When 11 players go out on that pitch though, potentially we're close enough to make a difference, because with big money and big teams comes big ego's and big groups of players pissed off they're not getting a regular game. Who gives a shit if spurs can afford to have Kranjcar in the ressies? We can only play the 11 that are put in front of us on the pitch.
Moyes has been given stability, no pressure and full control to shape the squad for 10+ years. Not many managers get that or anywhere close to it.
This is why we can beat chelsea and Utd and city. Not because man for man we're better than them - cos we're not - but because we want it more on the day and we have the belief we can do it.
What we need is the manager to work within the financial constraints of the club to create a balanced side. Not one that is defender heavy or with 3 experienced(expensive) goalkeepers. We lack the cash for easy expensive signings, so we need to sell to buy or get people in on free's who are going to make a difference, not just make up the numbers.
Look at Newcastle, Pardew went in and took a relegation side to within a whisker of CL football. He did it by selling some of his players for top dollar, and buying really good replacements on free's(ba), or for fee's(cisse) or on loan(Ben Arfa).
Moyes has done some very good business with Jelavic, Gibson and Pienaar, but he's also failed to move players on who we received very good offers for(Saha and Jags spring to mind), who we allegedly could've received £18M for combined!
We need to get players like Duffy, Barkley and Vellios who are good enough for the first team into the first team and playing. Either they'll save us money because we don't need to get the likes of McFadden and Straq in, or we can play them until a club comes sniffing and sell them on for a fat profit, or get rid of overrated players like jags and make use of that transfer fee and wage savings.
Pienaar was a big loss, but Moyes should've been acutely aware that we'd miss his creativity. It was Moyes decision not to pay him parity with Arteta and Moyes decision to let him walk. Would keeping Pienaar have given the club more than getting straq and McFadden in? I think so.
When 11 players go out on that pitch though, potentially we're close enough to make a difference, because with big money and big teams comes big ego's and big groups of players pissed off they're not getting a regular game. Who gives a shit if spurs can afford to have Kranjcar in the ressies? We can only play the 11 that are put in front of us on the pitch.
Moyes has been given stability, no pressure and full control to shape the squad for 10+ years. Not many managers get that or anywhere close to it.
This is why we can beat chelsea and Utd and city. Not because man for man we're better than them - cos we're not - but because we want it more on the day and we have the belief we can do it.
What we need is the manager to work within the financial constraints of the club to create a balanced side. Not one that is defender heavy or with 3 experienced(expensive) goalkeepers. We lack the cash for easy expensive signings, so we need to sell to buy or get people in on free's who are going to make a difference, not just make up the numbers.
Look at Newcastle, Pardew went in and took a relegation side to within a whisker of CL football. He did it by selling some of his players for top dollar, and buying really good replacements on free's(ba), or for fee's(cisse) or on loan(Ben Arfa).
Moyes has done some very good business with Jelavic, Gibson and Pienaar, but he's also failed to move players on who we received very good offers for(Saha and Jags spring to mind), who we allegedly could've received £18M for combined!
We need to get players like Duffy, Barkley and Vellios who are good enough for the first team into the first team and playing. Either they'll save us money because we don't need to get the likes of McFadden and Straq in, or we can play them until a club comes sniffing and sell them on for a fat profit, or get rid of overrated players like jags and make use of that transfer fee and wage savings.
Pienaar was a big loss, but Moyes should've been acutely aware that we'd miss his creativity. It was Moyes decision not to pay him parity with Arteta and Moyes decision to let him walk. Would keeping Pienaar have given the club more than getting straq and McFadden in? I think so.
I had to read a couple of posts before we got one (Roberto Birquet) recognising the impact that the Financial Fair Play regs will probably have. If they work out as planned, it will mean that clubs will no longer be able to pay out the huge amounts they have been on transfers and wages. It will take a few years to work through but hang on in there. Well maybe another 10 years. By which time I'll probably be dead (my request is to have my remains scattered at Goodison ? not cremated ? just scattered at Goodison).
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887 Posted 14/05/2012 at 13:24:23
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What we really lack is a squad like the teams above. Spurs thought they were good enough to sell Pavlyuchenko, if Jelavic got injured our aspirations for the season would be over. Likewise our best player wasnn't even good enough to get in their first team apparently and for every Modric there's a Krancjar, for every Wilshere there's a Ramsey. We oculd have a top top starting 11 next year if we can do any business in the summer but outside of that we have very few players, especially out wide and up front that can perform to the same level.