Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Europa League Qualification
107 Comments: Are Everton in the Europa League??
On the official Premier League website it says:
English winners of the UEFA Champions League who do not qualify through their domestic position go forward as Winners to the group stage, with the team finishing fourth dropping to the UEFA Europa League. In this case, the national association of the title-holder is entitled to one additional place in the UEFA Europa League.
Does this mean we are in? I thought so but am now very doubtful as there isn't any official news anywhere to say yes.
Graeme Dodd, Posted 20/05/2012 at 13:05:51
Comments
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But if it's normally one for the League Cup, one for the FA Cup, and one for finishing 5th... with the extra one being 4th since Chelsea won yesterday.
What happened to the FA Cup place? With both finalists Chelsea and Liverpool qualifying already. Does it not revert to the league?
Four in the Champions League and three in the Europa... plus one extra. With Liverpool in 8th ? all top eight places must qualify?
What happened to the FA Cup place? With both finalists Chelsea and Liverpool qualifying already. Does it not revert to the league?
Four in the Champions League and three in the Europa... plus one extra. With Liverpool in 8th ? all top eight places must qualify?
No the league cup finalists never get a place in europe.
England gets 7 places in europe,4 in the CL and 3 in the euro cup.
With Chelsea winning the CL it changes what teams qualify but not the overall number.
Another words we are not in europe.
England gets 7 places in europe,4 in the CL and 3 in the euro cup.
With Chelsea winning the CL it changes what teams qualify but not the overall number.
Another words we are not in europe.
I think this actually covers the current situation:
"
"a) If the titleholder comes from an association entitled to four places in the UEFA Champions League and qualifies for the UEFA Europa League through its domestic competitions, the lowest-ranked club of the association?s UEFA Champions League representatives is automatically transferred to the UEFA Europa League (into the latest possible round where there is a vacancy). In this case, the number of places to which the titleholder's association is entitled in the UEFA Champions League and the UEFA Europa League does not change."
So, no extra Europa place.
"
"a) If the titleholder comes from an association entitled to four places in the UEFA Champions League and qualifies for the UEFA Europa League through its domestic competitions, the lowest-ranked club of the association?s UEFA Champions League representatives is automatically transferred to the UEFA Europa League (into the latest possible round where there is a vacancy). In this case, the number of places to which the titleholder's association is entitled in the UEFA Champions League and the UEFA Europa League does not change."
So, no extra Europa place.
I can guarantee that if Liverpool would have finished 4th instead of Spurs, they'd have found some obscure UEFA ruling that would have had them playing in the Champion's League. They'd have probably already launched their appeal by now; together with a club video with hundreds of Liverpool supporting celebs whinging on demanding their natural birthright of European Champions League football and how they're being victimised...
I feel sorry for Spurs missing out because of them selfish bastards changing the rules in 2005- now there's a sentence I'd never thought I'd ever write... 'I feel sorry for Spurs'
I feel sorry for Spurs missing out because of them selfish bastards changing the rules in 2005- now there's a sentence I'd never thought I'd ever write... 'I feel sorry for Spurs'
if that is the accurate quote Uefa quote:
the national association of the title-holder is entitled to one additional place in the UEFA Europa League.
Then England gets an extra (ie 4 places rather than three) in the Europa Lgue. Then that would have to mean us. We were next highest in the league, and in the Cup.
I have simply assumed the same as everyone, there are three E league places: Spurs and Newcastle via he league, and RS via the mickey mouse cup.
Is it an accurate statement of the rules?
the national association of the title-holder is entitled to one additional place in the UEFA Europa League.
Then England gets an extra (ie 4 places rather than three) in the Europa Lgue. Then that would have to mean us. We were next highest in the league, and in the Cup.
I have simply assumed the same as everyone, there are three E league places: Spurs and Newcastle via he league, and RS via the mickey mouse cup.
Is it an accurate statement of the rules?
So just to recap:
Spurs qualify because they finished 4th and Chelsea won.
Newcastle because they finished 5th.
Liverpool because the won the League Cup.
What happened to the place that Chelsea (as FA Cup Winners) and Liverpool (as League Cup winners) 'vacated'?
A Europa League place is vacated when a team qualifies for both the Champions League and the Europa League, or qualifies for the Europa League by more than one method. When a place is vacated, it is redistributed within the national association by the following rules:
When the domestic cup winners (considered as the "highest-placed" qualifiers within the national association) also qualify for the Champions League, their Europa League place is vacated, and the remaining Europa League qualifiers are moved up one place, with the final place (with the earliest starting round) taken by the domestic cup runners-up, provided they do not already qualify for the Champions League or the Europa League.
Otherwise, this place is taken by the highest-placed league finishers that have not yet qualified for the Europa League.
When the domestic cup winners also qualify for the Europa League through league position, their place through the league position is vacated, and the Europa League qualifiers that finish lower in the league are moved up one place, with the final place taken by the highest-placed league finishers that have not yet qualified for the Europa League.
Spurs qualify because they finished 4th and Chelsea won.
Newcastle because they finished 5th.
Liverpool because the won the League Cup.
What happened to the place that Chelsea (as FA Cup Winners) and Liverpool (as League Cup winners) 'vacated'?
A Europa League place is vacated when a team qualifies for both the Champions League and the Europa League, or qualifies for the Europa League by more than one method. When a place is vacated, it is redistributed within the national association by the following rules:
When the domestic cup winners (considered as the "highest-placed" qualifiers within the national association) also qualify for the Champions League, their Europa League place is vacated, and the remaining Europa League qualifiers are moved up one place, with the final place (with the earliest starting round) taken by the domestic cup runners-up, provided they do not already qualify for the Champions League or the Europa League.
Otherwise, this place is taken by the highest-placed league finishers that have not yet qualified for the Europa League.
When the domestic cup winners also qualify for the Europa League through league position, their place through the league position is vacated, and the Europa League qualifiers that finish lower in the league are moved up one place, with the final place taken by the highest-placed league finishers that have not yet qualified for the Europa League.
Liverpool haven't vacated their place and Spurs took Chelsea's place in the Europa Cup. There isn't any extra places in Europe.
Basically the League Cup plays second fiddle to the FA Cup. Liverpool qualify as FA Cup Runners Up. Spurs take the League Europa League place. Newcastle take the additional League Cup place vacated by Liverpool. Simple really. 4 Champs League, 3 Europa League. No Fair Play or Intertoto! Typical isn't it. When Liverpool do shite, we needed them to finish above us to qualify.
That cannot possibly be right, Martin.
Liverpool qualify because they won the League Cup.
Spurs drop out of the Champions League places and get an EXTRA place set aside in the Europa.
It is an extra place, because they take the place of one of the teams that would drop out of the CL, and it's straight innto the Group stage. not the qualifying rounds.
Tottenham Hotspur, the fourth-placed team of the 2011-12 Premier League, were initially to enter the 2012-13 UEFA Champions League. However, as Chelsea, the sixth-placed team of the league, won the 2011-12 UEFA Champions League, they automatically qualify for the following year's competition as title holders, and because of the restriction that no association can have more than four teams playing in the Champions League, Tottenham Hotspur instead enter the 2012-13 UEFA Europa League group stage.
Liverpool qualify because they won the League Cup.
Spurs drop out of the Champions League places and get an EXTRA place set aside in the Europa.
It is an extra place, because they take the place of one of the teams that would drop out of the CL, and it's straight innto the Group stage. not the qualifying rounds.
Tottenham Hotspur, the fourth-placed team of the 2011-12 Premier League, were initially to enter the 2012-13 UEFA Champions League. However, as Chelsea, the sixth-placed team of the league, won the 2011-12 UEFA Champions League, they automatically qualify for the following year's competition as title holders, and because of the restriction that no association can have more than four teams playing in the Champions League, Tottenham Hotspur instead enter the 2012-13 UEFA Europa League group stage.
Clear as mud then.
When will we actually find out?
When will we actually find out?
Paul
There isn't any extra places in Europe.
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So you are saying the quote at the top is wrong? An extra place to the association that has the title holder?
There isn't any extra places in Europe.
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So you are saying the quote at the top is wrong? An extra place to the association that has the title holder?
Roberto
There is an exrta euro place available through league finish but that place comes from the FA cup winners who are now in the CL.
Its the same number of european places altogether,7.
There is an exrta euro place available through league finish but that place comes from the FA cup winners who are now in the CL.
Its the same number of european places altogether,7.
Michael
When the domestic cup winners (considered as the "highest-placed" qualifiers within the national association) also qualify for the Champions League, their Europa League place is vacated, and the remaining Europa League qualifiers are moved up one place,
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Otherwise, this place is taken by the highest-placed league finishers that have not yet qualified for the Europa League.
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I take that to mean Newcastle. Liverpool won lge cup, Spurs take league placing for Eur Lgue. So Newcastle get the vacated Cup berth (three entrants).
My query is the original article up top claiming that the PL or England gets an "extra" Eur League entrantdue to Chelsea's victory. If so - big if as no-one seemed to have previously mentioned it - that's us.
When the domestic cup winners (considered as the "highest-placed" qualifiers within the national association) also qualify for the Champions League, their Europa League place is vacated, and the remaining Europa League qualifiers are moved up one place,
----
Otherwise, this place is taken by the highest-placed league finishers that have not yet qualified for the Europa League.
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I take that to mean Newcastle. Liverpool won lge cup, Spurs take league placing for Eur Lgue. So Newcastle get the vacated Cup berth (three entrants).
My query is the original article up top claiming that the PL or England gets an "extra" Eur League entrantdue to Chelsea's victory. If so - big if as no-one seemed to have previously mentioned it - that's us.
FFS.... there is officially only one Europa placing through the league, that belongs to Newcastle as they finished 5th.
The top 4 teams take the Champions League places: Man City, Man Utd, Arsenal and spurs.
Unfortunately for Spurs, Chelsea now take their place as CL winners, so Spurs drop into the Europa League, effectively in place of Chelsea who are also FA Cup winners.
The FA Cup winners gain a place in the Europa League... but obviously Chelsea are now in the CL... that means the FA Cup runners up get into the Europa ? that's Liverpool.
But Liverpool are already in because of the League Cup.
To put it another way.... of the top 8 teams in the Prem this year, 7 of them are playing in Europe next season ? only 1 is not... guess who!!!!
The top 4 teams take the Champions League places: Man City, Man Utd, Arsenal and spurs.
Unfortunately for Spurs, Chelsea now take their place as CL winners, so Spurs drop into the Europa League, effectively in place of Chelsea who are also FA Cup winners.
The FA Cup winners gain a place in the Europa League... but obviously Chelsea are now in the CL... that means the FA Cup runners up get into the Europa ? that's Liverpool.
But Liverpool are already in because of the League Cup.
To put it another way.... of the top 8 teams in the Prem this year, 7 of them are playing in Europe next season ? only 1 is not... guess who!!!!
Michael i promise you it is. the fa cup place takes priority hence why losing finalists always qualify. The league cup place transfers to the league. in this case, newcastle. if it had been us in the final, against chelsea, newcastle would not have qualified for Europe.
Martyn
Basically the League Cup plays second fiddle to the FA Cup. Liverpool qualify as FA Cup Runners Up.
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No that is wrong. League cup winners trumps FA Cup runners up. Certainly FA Cup losers trumps L Cup losers, but not the winners.
But FA Cup loser does trump 6th in the league, so Stoke, Brum and Spurs (League) were entrants last season.
Basically the League Cup plays second fiddle to the FA Cup. Liverpool qualify as FA Cup Runners Up.
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No that is wrong. League cup winners trumps FA Cup runners up. Certainly FA Cup losers trumps L Cup losers, but not the winners.
But FA Cup loser does trump 6th in the league, so Stoke, Brum and Spurs (League) were entrants last season.
I think people may be missing the point in the quote. the extra europa league place is exactly that, its a guaranteed place, i.e. you don't have to qualify
Roberto that's true but not if the winner has qualified for the CL. Basically Liverpool are considered the recipients of the FA Cup place.
Paul
There is an exrta euro place available through league finish but
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Then that is poor use of language by PL or Uefa. If England still has three entrants in E LEague, they do not have an extra place. Someone should teach them elementary English. Three before, three now does not bloody extra make.
There is an exrta euro place available through league finish but
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Then that is poor use of language by PL or Uefa. If England still has three entrants in E LEague, they do not have an extra place. Someone should teach them elementary English. Three before, three now does not bloody extra make.
The title holder would have been given an additional entry if they did not qualify for the 2012?13 UEFA Champions League or Europa League through domestic performance; however, this additional entry was not necessary as Atlético Madrid, winners of the 2011?12 UEFA Europa League, qualified for the Europa League through domestic performance.
In this case, the national association of the title-holder is entitled to one additional place in the UEFA Europa League.
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If Paul is right, then the above should read:
The national league of the title-holder is entitled to one additional place in the UEFA Europa League. The national association does not get an extra place, just the Prem League.
I'm guessing that is what it should say, and we miss out by one place for third consecutive year.
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If Paul is right, then the above should read:
The national league of the title-holder is entitled to one additional place in the UEFA Europa League. The national association does not get an extra place, just the Prem League.
I'm guessing that is what it should say, and we miss out by one place for third consecutive year.
Roberto
My head feels like its about to explode now. All I know is that England gets 7 places, 4 in the CL, 3 in the Europa League. Never any more, no matter who wins the CL.
My head feels like its about to explode now. All I know is that England gets 7 places, 4 in the CL, 3 in the Europa League. Never any more, no matter who wins the CL.
The way I see it, Chelsea have swapped places with Spurs, that's all.
You only get an extra space if the team that wins the champions league fail to qualify for Europe by any other means, as Chelsea had qualified by winning the FA Cup.
If for example we had won the cup by beating Spurs in the final the extra slot in the Europa league would have been created for Spurs.
If for example we had won the cup by beating Spurs in the final the extra slot in the Europa league would have been created for Spurs.
I think Michael should close this thread before we all go doolally!!!
Brian Waring - nail on head; all other information is redundant.
That was to post 415
Please allow me to explain matters:
4 places to go the Champions League - the top 3 sides plus Chelsea.
3 places go to the Europa League:
1. the highest non-qualifying Champions League team in the league,
2. the FA Cup winners or the Runners-Up
3. The League Cup winners
If 2. or 3. already have a place then the next highest team in the League who have not already qualified for either Competition gets a place in the Europa League.
So:
CL - Man City, Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea
Europa League Qualification =
Highest League side (4th) - Spurs
FA Cup - Liverpool
League Cup - already claimed
Extra place therefore goes to the next highest placed league side = Newcastle.
The point you lot are missing is that if say Wigan or someone equally as low as them had won the League Cup, then Newcastle would have missed out! Had Chelsea lost then they'd be the highest non-Champions League qualifying side and got in via 5th, but had Chelsea won (and Wigan won the League Cup) then their place diverts to Spurs. Newcastle only qualify as Liverpool already qualify as FA Cup finalists.
Alternatively, had we beat Liverpool in the FA Cup semi and either won or lost the FA Cup final then we would have claimed that place, Liverpool the League Cup place and Spurs the highest non-CL place and again Newcastle would have missed out.
I hope you all understand now
4 places to go the Champions League - the top 3 sides plus Chelsea.
3 places go to the Europa League:
1. the highest non-qualifying Champions League team in the league,
2. the FA Cup winners or the Runners-Up
3. The League Cup winners
If 2. or 3. already have a place then the next highest team in the League who have not already qualified for either Competition gets a place in the Europa League.
So:
CL - Man City, Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea
Europa League Qualification =
Highest League side (4th) - Spurs
FA Cup - Liverpool
League Cup - already claimed
Extra place therefore goes to the next highest placed league side = Newcastle.
The point you lot are missing is that if say Wigan or someone equally as low as them had won the League Cup, then Newcastle would have missed out! Had Chelsea lost then they'd be the highest non-Champions League qualifying side and got in via 5th, but had Chelsea won (and Wigan won the League Cup) then their place diverts to Spurs. Newcastle only qualify as Liverpool already qualify as FA Cup finalists.
Alternatively, had we beat Liverpool in the FA Cup semi and either won or lost the FA Cup final then we would have claimed that place, Liverpool the League Cup place and Spurs the highest non-CL place and again Newcastle would have missed out.
I hope you all understand now
Stewart
If that would have happened then Newcastle would have missed out on europe altogether. Still the 7 places only.
If that would have happened then Newcastle would have missed out on europe altogether. Still the 7 places only.
Correction:
The point you lot are missing is that if say Wigan or someone equally as low as them had won the League Cup, then Newcastle would have missed out! Had Chelsea lost then they'd [I should have stated by they i meant Newcastle] be the highest non-Champions League qualifying side and got in via 5th [place in the League], but had Chelsea won [the Champions League] (and Wigan won the League Cup) then [Newcastle's] place diverts to Spurs. Newcastle [would] only qualify [for the Europa League] as Liverpool already qualify [for the Europa League] as FA Cup finalists.
The point you lot are missing is that if say Wigan or someone equally as low as them had won the League Cup, then Newcastle would have missed out! Had Chelsea lost then they'd [I should have stated by they i meant Newcastle] be the highest non-Champions League qualifying side and got in via 5th [place in the League], but had Chelsea won [the Champions League] (and Wigan won the League Cup) then [Newcastle's] place diverts to Spurs. Newcastle [would] only qualify [for the Europa League] as Liverpool already qualify [for the Europa League] as FA Cup finalists.
Paul, no they would still get their place with an extra place created for Spurs. If the Champions League winners fail to qualify for Europe by any other means (league position on cup win) an extra place in the Europa league is created.
You're wrong Stewart, Newcastle would have missed out had we made the FA Cup final or a bottom half side won the League Cup.
This is from the Uefa rules, page 7,
If the titleholder comes from an association entitled to four places in the
UEFA Champions League and does not qualify for the UEFA Champions
League or UEFA Europa League through its domestic competitions, the
lowest-ranked club of the association?s UEFA Champions League
representatives is automatically transferred to the UEFA Europa League
(into the latest possible round where there is a vacancy). In this case, the
association of the titleholder is entitled to one additional place in the
UEFA Europa League
Here's the link.
http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/competitions/Regulations/01/63/02/44/1630244_DOWNLOAD.pdf
If the titleholder comes from an association entitled to four places in the
UEFA Champions League and does not qualify for the UEFA Champions
League or UEFA Europa League through its domestic competitions, the
lowest-ranked club of the association?s UEFA Champions League
representatives is automatically transferred to the UEFA Europa League
(into the latest possible round where there is a vacancy). In this case, the
association of the titleholder is entitled to one additional place in the
UEFA Europa League
Here's the link.
http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/competitions/Regulations/01/63/02/44/1630244_DOWNLOAD.pdf
I think the fact that this thread is so long, and the situation so unclear even after the season has finished, reflects poorly on Uefa and the complications it has brought in.
Personally, I wish Uefa would make the following changes;
1. Champions League winners do not automatically qualify for the following season's competition.
2. Top 4 league places to Champions League
3. Places 5-7 to Europa League
4. FA Cup winners to Europa League
5. League Cup winners get zilch. It's not as important as the main FA Cup competition.
How easy would that be?
Personally, I wish Uefa would make the following changes;
1. Champions League winners do not automatically qualify for the following season's competition.
2. Top 4 league places to Champions League
3. Places 5-7 to Europa League
4. FA Cup winners to Europa League
5. League Cup winners get zilch. It's not as important as the main FA Cup competition.
How easy would that be?
Stewart you are going off point b) which does not apply. Chelsea would have had a place in the Europa League and therefore point a) applies. There is no changes to the amount of EL places.
Yes it would be easier, Jeremy, but you'd have to award just 5th and 6th to EL as we only get three places and the Cup Winners claim the first place. 7th will qualify if the cup winners are already top 6.
Strewth... does this mean Tony Marsh gets to blather on about the Europa League all over again?
Point b) on the UEFA regulations (page 6 on stewarts link) is interesting.
Say:
top 5 as is
6th Everton
7th Liverpool
8th Fulham
9th Chelsea
FA Cup - winners = Everton, losers = Spurs.
League Cup Winners = Cardiff.
The european qualification would have gone as follows:
1. Man City = CL
2. Man Utd = CL
3. Arsenal = CL
4. Spurs = EL - highest in league
5. Newcastle = extra and 4th place in EL as 2nd highest in League
6. Everton = EL - FA Cup winners
7. Liverpool = no qualification
8 Chelsea = CL
Cardiff = EL - League Cup winners
Say:
top 5 as is
6th Everton
7th Liverpool
8th Fulham
9th Chelsea
FA Cup - winners = Everton, losers = Spurs.
League Cup Winners = Cardiff.
The european qualification would have gone as follows:
1. Man City = CL
2. Man Utd = CL
3. Arsenal = CL
4. Spurs = EL - highest in league
5. Newcastle = extra and 4th place in EL as 2nd highest in League
6. Everton = EL - FA Cup winners
7. Liverpool = no qualification
8 Chelsea = CL
Cardiff = EL - League Cup winners
Steve, its complicated enough, why bring in fantasy positions?
So basically our failure at Wembley is now compounded by Chelsea's success in the CL.
Steve, I know I'm going of Point b, I was trying to point out how you get an extra Europa League place by using the example of us winning the FA Cup instead of Chelsea; your response was that Newcastle would lose out, which Point b show's they wouldn't.
Just to second Martin's point, the FA Cup place *does* trump the League Cup, even if it's an FA Cup runners-up spot.
Liverpool qualified through the FA Cup and *not* the League Cup.
Liverpool qualified through the FA Cup and *not* the League Cup.
Stewart point b only applies if Chelsea had not qualified for the Europa League. They did by winning the FA Cup, therefore point a applies, and there is no extra place.
3 places in the Europa League:
1. highest placing in the league goes to Tottenham.
2. FA Cup place goes to Liverpool as runner's up.
3. League Cup place reverts to Newcastle as next highest place in the League as Liverpool have already claimed a place.
3 places in the Europa League:
1. highest placing in the league goes to Tottenham.
2. FA Cup place goes to Liverpool as runner's up.
3. League Cup place reverts to Newcastle as next highest place in the League as Liverpool have already claimed a place.
Jeremy
I've been wanting to scrap the Euro place for the League Cup winners for years, not many teams take it seriously so it doesn't deserve its Euro place.
I've been wanting to scrap the Euro place for the League Cup winners for years, not many teams take it seriously so it doesn't deserve its Euro place.
Even if that was the case, Lyndon, the League Cup place would revert to the league placing: 5th & 6th, instead of just 5th. 6th wins CL, so 7th should therefore qualify.
Stewart, reconsidering what you said, we'd claim the first EL place as Cup Winners, then Spurs next via League, then Liverpool as as LC winners, then Newcastle would get the extra place. So you're right in your thinking, but the extra place goes to Newcastle not Spurs.
God, it's hard enough... can we PLEASE limit this discussion to the real positions. Thanks!
I think I'll wait for Uefa to clarify the euro places rather than taking as gospel all the "expert" views on here.
Bottom line: we finished 7th, we got knocked out of the cup semis, we don't really deserve a place anyway.
Whatever we think, or don't think, is irrelevant. What Uefa state, is relevant.
Bottom line: we finished 7th, we got knocked out of the cup semis, we don't really deserve a place anyway.
Whatever we think, or don't think, is irrelevant. What Uefa state, is relevant.
Can i just clarify the order of the Europa League qualification:
1. FA Cup Winners
2. Highest team in league (non-CL)
3. League Cup Winners.
This is important for what round you enter and the FA Cup winners enter in the last round prior to the groups.
This season the order goes:
1. Spurs = 4th
2. Liverpool = FA Cup runners-up (Chelsea already qualified)
3. Newcastle = 5th (as Liverpool already qualified)
1. FA Cup Winners
2. Highest team in league (non-CL)
3. League Cup Winners.
This is important for what round you enter and the FA Cup winners enter in the last round prior to the groups.
This season the order goes:
1. Spurs = 4th
2. Liverpool = FA Cup runners-up (Chelsea already qualified)
3. Newcastle = 5th (as Liverpool already qualified)
I think maybe Stewart has it in #428, and the key phrase: "...and does not qualify..."
Well, Chelsea did qualify for the Europa, by winning the FA Cup, therefore there is no extra place.
And as I maintain, Liverpool did qualify by winning the League Cup. NOT as FA Cup runners-up.
Well, Chelsea did qualify for the Europa, by winning the FA Cup, therefore there is no extra place.
And as I maintain, Liverpool did qualify by winning the League Cup. NOT as FA Cup runners-up.
Paul,
I'm not sure even the FA Cup warrants a European place. Not because it isn't "good"... but just because these days, it's mostly won by teams already in the top 6, which then just results in complications. I think a more fitting reward for winning the FA Cup (apart from the obvious kudos) would be a fat pay out. Maybe £5-£10 million? I don't know.
The whole euro-qualification route through the cups is simply a mess.
I'm not sure even the FA Cup warrants a European place. Not because it isn't "good"... but just because these days, it's mostly won by teams already in the top 6, which then just results in complications. I think a more fitting reward for winning the FA Cup (apart from the obvious kudos) would be a fat pay out. Maybe £5-£10 million? I don't know.
The whole euro-qualification route through the cups is simply a mess.
Jeremy
The FA Cup has been devalued enough. I think there should be a reward of Europe for clubs who can't achieve it through the league by winning the cup. Maybe taking away the runners-up getting into Europe if the winners have already qualified.
The FA Cup has been devalued enough. I think there should be a reward of Europe for clubs who can't achieve it through the league by winning the cup. Maybe taking away the runners-up getting into Europe if the winners have already qualified.
Michael, Chelsea *would* have qualified for the Europa by winning the FA Cup *if* they had lost the CL final.
Seeing as they now qualify for the CL as winners, Liverpool get the FA Cup slot as runners up, Spurs get the Premier League slot normally reserved for 5th and Newcastle get the League Cup slot vacated by Liverpool.
Seeing as they now qualify for the CL as winners, Liverpool get the FA Cup slot as runners up, Spurs get the Premier League slot normally reserved for 5th and Newcastle get the League Cup slot vacated by Liverpool.
England is the only country in Europe who gives a EL place to the it's League Cup winners. Most European Countries do not even have a League Cup. I think it's past time we took away European Qualification from the competition and perhaps limit the competition to Football League clubs, as it is the Football League Cup afterall (nothing to do with the FA or the Premier League).
Lyndon you have it right.
Paul,
Don't get me wrong,I love the FA Cup, but... I think (I have the list of cup winners but can't be bothered checking euro places, it might take weeks...) only Portsmouth in the last 20 years have won the FA Cup and not been in a Euro qualifying place.
1 in 20 is not enough to make a rule by.
Don't get me wrong,I love the FA Cup, but... I think (I have the list of cup winners but can't be bothered checking euro places, it might take weeks...) only Portsmouth in the last 20 years have won the FA Cup and not been in a Euro qualifying place.
1 in 20 is not enough to make a rule by.
Steve
The premier league is part of the league.I would have no qualms about scapping the league cup but not untill we've won it.It might sound stupid but I want us to win the league cup more than the FA cup but only because we've never won it.
The premier league is part of the league.I would have no qualms about scapping the league cup but not untill we've won it.It might sound stupid but I want us to win the league cup more than the FA cup but only because we've never won it.
Jeremy
How could you have forgotten about us in 95? I see what you're saying but the fact that the winners of the FA Cup are normally already in Europe means there's no need to take away its Euro place as it would revert to the league anyway (if the runners up were stopped from getting into Europe).
How could you have forgotten about us in 95? I see what you're saying but the fact that the winners of the FA Cup are normally already in Europe means there's no need to take away its Euro place as it would revert to the league anyway (if the runners up were stopped from getting into Europe).
Just to confuse matters, there's lots of rumours flying around that Uefa have reversed the laws on which spot goes in which round of qualifying or something like that. Liverpool had stood to gain from Chelsea's European win by claiming the FA Cup runners up spot rather than the League Cup spot, meaning that they'd go straight to the final qualifying round. Seems that's not the case and they have to go through all 3 rounds.
I think the only way we could get into EL is by fair play.
Problem is England is not among the best in fair play.
If by a miracle we get another EL place then I fear we will suffer for it, as we do not have a big enough squad to deal with it.
Problem is England is not among the best in fair play.
If by a miracle we get another EL place then I fear we will suffer for it, as we do not have a big enough squad to deal with it.
Paul,
I didn't forget, I think after a couple of beers my brain could not compute the number of years...my maths is usually spot on too. Oh well, it was a tough (fishing) match.
I didn't forget, I think after a couple of beers my brain could not compute the number of years...my maths is usually spot on too. Oh well, it was a tough (fishing) match.
Upon checking the UEFA EL site all becomes clear : "The list of participating clubs will be made available soon." !!
We always qualify for the Liverpool Senior Cup!
Wouldn?t it be nice if you had to be champions to get into the Champions? League? Just a thought ?
Liverpool wouldn't have won it 5 times then.
Lyndon, sorry but I think you've got it wrong:
Liverpool get the FA Cup slot as runners up
That may have been what they wanted but it's not the case; they qualify as League Cup winners.
Spurs get the Premier League slot normally reserved for 5th
No, that's completely wrong; they get dumped into the Europa League solely because Chelsea won the CL.
Newcastle get the League Cup slot vacated by Liverpool
No: 100% wrong; 5th place is the one and only guaranteed Europa place.
But the only way to establish his definitively will be to see what rounds of the Europa League each team gets entered into by Uefa.
Liverpool get the FA Cup slot as runners up
That may have been what they wanted but it's not the case; they qualify as League Cup winners.
Spurs get the Premier League slot normally reserved for 5th
No, that's completely wrong; they get dumped into the Europa League solely because Chelsea won the CL.
Newcastle get the League Cup slot vacated by Liverpool
No: 100% wrong; 5th place is the one and only guaranteed Europa place.
But the only way to establish his definitively will be to see what rounds of the Europa League each team gets entered into by Uefa.
We haven't got the squad to compete anyway.
Steve
You and Lyndon are definitely wrong. The order of qualification for the Europa League ia as follows:-
1. Tottenham - replacing F.A. Cup winners
2. Newcastle - 5th place
3. Liverpool - League Cup winners
As someone who is clearly very interested in this subject, I aasume you are familiar with the very authoritative website www.kassiesa.home.xs4all/bert/uefa/index.html and this shows the above order.
When Chelsea failed to qualify for the Champions League through their league position, the FA Cup runners-up became an irrelevance. When they won the Champions League, they simply swapped places with Tottenham.
As further evidence that League Cup winner 'trumps' FA Cup runner-up, you can look at last season when Birmingham started in a later round than Stoke. Liverpool were always going to qualify as League Cup winner rather than FA Cup runner-up.
You and Lyndon are definitely wrong. The order of qualification for the Europa League ia as follows:-
1. Tottenham - replacing F.A. Cup winners
2. Newcastle - 5th place
3. Liverpool - League Cup winners
As someone who is clearly very interested in this subject, I aasume you are familiar with the very authoritative website www.kassiesa.home.xs4all/bert/uefa/index.html and this shows the above order.
When Chelsea failed to qualify for the Champions League through their league position, the FA Cup runners-up became an irrelevance. When they won the Champions League, they simply swapped places with Tottenham.
As further evidence that League Cup winner 'trumps' FA Cup runner-up, you can look at last season when Birmingham started in a later round than Stoke. Liverpool were always going to qualify as League Cup winner rather than FA Cup runner-up.
Phil #551.. that was how I saw it.. reading this thread though.. my head was farting by the end.
I agree, Guy, we haven't the squad or the manager...
But that's not the issue. It's "have we qualified or not, considering there seems to have been an 'extra place' earnt by Chelsea's win?"
The answer seems to be "No" but the reasoning behind it seems obscure at best ? although personally I believe Stewart Oakes @428 has posted the only thing that makes any sense:
Because Chelsea had already qualified for Europe (by winning the FA Cup), there is no "extra place". So, in effect (as some have said) Chelsea and Spurs swopped slots. Newcastle qualify in 5th, Liverpool as League Cup winners.
Once again, the problem here seems to be lazy journalism talking of that 'extra place', which would by rights give us four in the Europa League; there is no extra place, but only because of the specific wording quoted @428 by Stewart ? Chelsea had already qualified for Europe by winning the FA Cup.
But that's not the issue. It's "have we qualified or not, considering there seems to have been an 'extra place' earnt by Chelsea's win?"
The answer seems to be "No" but the reasoning behind it seems obscure at best ? although personally I believe Stewart Oakes @428 has posted the only thing that makes any sense:
Because Chelsea had already qualified for Europe (by winning the FA Cup), there is no "extra place". So, in effect (as some have said) Chelsea and Spurs swopped slots. Newcastle qualify in 5th, Liverpool as League Cup winners.
Once again, the problem here seems to be lazy journalism talking of that 'extra place', which would by rights give us four in the Europa League; there is no extra place, but only because of the specific wording quoted @428 by Stewart ? Chelsea had already qualified for Europe by winning the FA Cup.
I agree with Phil (#551) on everything expect this key statement:
"When Chelsea failed to qualify for the Champions League through their league position, the FA Cup runners-up became an irrelevance."
If we had lost the FA Cup Final to Spurs (sorry... I know, I know), then the 'extra place' clause would have been triggered and all 8 top teams would surely be in Europe?
"When Chelsea failed to qualify for the Champions League through their league position, the FA Cup runners-up became an irrelevance."
If we had lost the FA Cup Final to Spurs (sorry... I know, I know), then the 'extra place' clause would have been triggered and all 8 top teams would surely be in Europe?
So we are not in Europe then ; )
So, just to get things absolutely straight then, we are the team that play in blue , at home at Goodison! Or have I missed something?
Michael
My statement was, of course, based on the scenario that Chelsea had won the FA Cup.
I agree that the Spurs beating Everton situation would have given us a place in Europe but are we now going to discuss whether we would have qualified through league position or as Cup runners-up!
I believe it would be the former but I've no idea how they would have slotted us into the competition.
My statement was, of course, based on the scenario that Chelsea had won the FA Cup.
I agree that the Spurs beating Everton situation would have given us a place in Europe but are we now going to discuss whether we would have qualified through league position or as Cup runners-up!
I believe it would be the former but I've no idea how they would have slotted us into the competition.
Michael, in response to us not wanting to be in the competition you imply our manager isn't up to it?
Is that the same manager who, during his first proper European campaign had a team that finished top of their group, thrashed the Norwegians before losing on penalties to Florentina?
Don't even come back to me with Benfica because they were awesome and we had massive injury problems.
He's been OK in Europe and doesn't deserve to be dismissed.
Is that the same manager who, during his first proper European campaign had a team that finished top of their group, thrashed the Norwegians before losing on penalties to Florentina?
Don't even come back to me with Benfica because they were awesome and we had massive injury problems.
He's been OK in Europe and doesn't deserve to be dismissed.
What about the Romanians, they smashed us everywhere as well.
@ Paul
I have and will always blame Bucharest on Phil Neville.
He gave them a passport through to our goal.
Midfield enforcer my arse!
I have and will always blame Bucharest on Phil Neville.
He gave them a passport through to our goal.
Midfield enforcer my arse!
Andrew
I blame the banking crisis on Phil Neville.
I blame the banking crisis on Phil Neville.
Guy
We haven't got the squad to compete anyway.
--------------
Surely qualification to the Europa League would have financed purchase (say £4m) for Pienaar.
That woulda helped. And I think Europe taught us to play better football, too. I'd want in, even if to the QLs. More exciting than the FA Cup, and forget the League Cup ? what a bore! It should be stripped of its auto spot for Europe.
And contrary to others' thoughts on the FA Cup, I'd have had Spurs in next year's CL anyway; for winning the FA Cup.
We haven't got the squad to compete anyway.
--------------
Surely qualification to the Europa League would have financed purchase (say £4m) for Pienaar.
That woulda helped. And I think Europe taught us to play better football, too. I'd want in, even if to the QLs. More exciting than the FA Cup, and forget the League Cup ? what a bore! It should be stripped of its auto spot for Europe.
And contrary to others' thoughts on the FA Cup, I'd have had Spurs in next year's CL anyway; for winning the FA Cup.
Not being in the Europa isnt such a bad thing for us this year.
Our first 11 is a match for most Prem sides, with an addition and hopefully sensible sales, we are right in the mix.
I honestly dont think we are strong enough to compete on that many fronts. Domestic cups.. definetely. League, top places up for grabs this coming season. Europa ? Too much right now.
Our first 11 is a match for most Prem sides, with an addition and hopefully sensible sales, we are right in the mix.
I honestly dont think we are strong enough to compete on that many fronts. Domestic cups.. definetely. League, top places up for grabs this coming season. Europa ? Too much right now.
Not sure how others feel but I personally think the Rules on the whole Chelsea/Spurs debacle are a fucking joke. If you finish 4th in the league you should qualify. If you win the thing you Qualify! So what if you have 5 English teams in that year they have fucking earned it!
This is exactly why, and guess who was to blame, the winner of the Champions League should not be granted a place if they don't qualify through the league.
The whole thing is a joke anyway. If you finish fourth in the league, you are not a champion. 32 places up for grabs, and more than 32 top flight leagues in Europe. Give it back to the champions only.
Maybe, if you win the Champs League and don't qualify for the following season, you get a spot in Europa League, but even that's stretching it in my book.
The whole thing is a joke anyway. If you finish fourth in the league, you are not a champion. 32 places up for grabs, and more than 32 top flight leagues in Europe. Give it back to the champions only.
Maybe, if you win the Champs League and don't qualify for the following season, you get a spot in Europa League, but even that's stretching it in my book.
I think the reason the EL qualification has dropped down to 7th before is when both the League Cup and FA Cup have been contested by top 4 clubs. The runners up in both situations are already in the Champions League, so 5th qualifies through league placing, 6th & 7th get the other 2 berths.
So if we had got to the FA Cup Final, does that mean we would be in Europe? If so? It makes losing to the Shite even more unpalatable. They get there as losers and qualify yet finish below us. The whole qualification system is fucked.
Top four should get the CL and next three EC as this rewards the top 7 teams, not a side that had a good run in the cup but a shit overall season to finish 8th. How did Stoke and Fulham get in last year? We did finish above these teams didn't we?
So what if you win the CL or the EC you should still have to re-qualify for the next season based on results ? otherwise you could just solely concentrate all your efforts on winning these competitions and do enough not to get relegated.
Had we finished 6th and Chelsea 7th but they winning the CL moves us down a spot and the Shite get in even if they lose the FA Cup. It's so fucked and the Shite fuck us again.
Top four should get the CL and next three EC as this rewards the top 7 teams, not a side that had a good run in the cup but a shit overall season to finish 8th. How did Stoke and Fulham get in last year? We did finish above these teams didn't we?
So what if you win the CL or the EC you should still have to re-qualify for the next season based on results ? otherwise you could just solely concentrate all your efforts on winning these competitions and do enough not to get relegated.
Had we finished 6th and Chelsea 7th but they winning the CL moves us down a spot and the Shite get in even if they lose the FA Cup. It's so fucked and the Shite fuck us again.
Apparently UEFA are giving us a place in the Europa League 'cos of the great football we've played since January and so we at Toffeweb can all get on with our lives and END THIS THREAD!
So are Everton in the Europa League Next season then?!
Michael (555),
In that instance Newcastle wouldnt have qualified
You only need look at pardews comments before the fa cup semi finals - he was worried we would finish below them and take thier place....
Anyway we aint in europe, and what i said at comment 18 (393) still stands!!
Roll on Preston away in July....
In that instance Newcastle wouldnt have qualified
You only need look at pardews comments before the fa cup semi finals - he was worried we would finish below them and take thier place....
Anyway we aint in europe, and what i said at comment 18 (393) still stands!!
Roll on Preston away in July....
What would have happened if it hadnt been Chelsea that won the FA Cup, but somebody else, lets say Villa had beaten the shite. It would be:
Fa Cup = Villa
League Cup = The Shite
5th = Newcastle
??? = Spurs
I know its all hypothetical, but in that scenario, an extra place would have to be given for Spurs to take up, or Necastle would maybe miss out for finishing 5th?
I dont even know why im questioning because I dont feel the Europa would help us much next year.
Fa Cup = Villa
League Cup = The Shite
5th = Newcastle
??? = Spurs
I know its all hypothetical, but in that scenario, an extra place would have to be given for Spurs to take up, or Necastle would maybe miss out for finishing 5th?
I dont even know why im questioning because I dont feel the Europa would help us much next year.
Dan, in your scenario the League Cup winners would give up their place to Spurs.
Is that correct Eric? I would have thought that Dan's scenario is an example of when the 'additional place' is granted for the Europa League, which would go to Spurs as compensation for losing out on Champs League? FA and League Cup winners are guaranteed entry to the Europa surely?
Aaaarrrrgggghh!!
No Dan, in your scenario...
FA Cup = Villa
Spurs = EL via the Premier League
League Cup = Liverpool
Newcastle would not have qualified!
Cmon People!
PS I dont even know why:
a) i'm so bothered
b) remotely interested!
Must be a slow day in work....
No Dan, in your scenario...
FA Cup = Villa
Spurs = EL via the Premier League
League Cup = Liverpool
Newcastle would not have qualified!
Cmon People!
PS I dont even know why:
a) i'm so bothered
b) remotely interested!
Must be a slow day in work....
It will be interesting to get a definitive answer from UEFA ? until reading this thread I hadn?t given it much thought, however there seem to be some relatively compelling arguments/ reasoning why we could have qualified (and just as many stating how we haven?t).
At the end of the day I do not think winning the CL is enough to qualify for the following years competition. This no longer happens in either the World Cup or the European Championships. At the start of the year every team knows they have to finish within the top 4 (in the PL at least) to qualify for the Champions League. If you are not good enough to meet this requirement after 38 games you are not good enough to participate in the following years competition ? it is as simple as that. And to be fair, for me even this is not really enough for a team to participate in the CHAMPIONS League ? Malaga in Spain have finished 4th this season and qualify, despite finishing 42 points behind Real Madrid?
At the end of the day I do not think winning the CL is enough to qualify for the following years competition. This no longer happens in either the World Cup or the European Championships. At the start of the year every team knows they have to finish within the top 4 (in the PL at least) to qualify for the Champions League. If you are not good enough to meet this requirement after 38 games you are not good enough to participate in the following years competition ? it is as simple as that. And to be fair, for me even this is not really enough for a team to participate in the CHAMPIONS League ? Malaga in Spain have finished 4th this season and qualify, despite finishing 42 points behind Real Madrid?
Reading through this tortuous thread has reminded me of something. It's now the close season...
If it wasn't bad enough seeing that cock Terry lifting the European Cup, the next 11 weeks and 5 days will consist of:
England messing up in the Euros and loads of Woy jokes.
People of ToffeeWeb despairing at our transfer activity (lack of) and blaming all and sundry when somebody we have never heard of from Denmark chooses Fulham over us due to 'Dithering Davey' etc, etc, etc.
Threads like this where we all realise how close we were to making last season into something half-decent.
All depressing stuff really, so I'm turning off the lights till August and am going to spend my time / energy on other things in life like my family, roadcycling, enjoying the Summer (well, ahem... if it ever warms up) and making some improvements to the house before the all consuming Everton monster returns in August.
Have a great Summer, fellas. See you back here again in early August. :)
If it wasn't bad enough seeing that cock Terry lifting the European Cup, the next 11 weeks and 5 days will consist of:
England messing up in the Euros and loads of Woy jokes.
People of ToffeeWeb despairing at our transfer activity (lack of) and blaming all and sundry when somebody we have never heard of from Denmark chooses Fulham over us due to 'Dithering Davey' etc, etc, etc.
Threads like this where we all realise how close we were to making last season into something half-decent.
All depressing stuff really, so I'm turning off the lights till August and am going to spend my time / energy on other things in life like my family, roadcycling, enjoying the Summer (well, ahem... if it ever warms up) and making some improvements to the house before the all consuming Everton monster returns in August.
Have a great Summer, fellas. See you back here again in early August. :)
The only thing that is immediately clear to me from reading this thread is that there are a lot of people who are confident that they understand the Uefa qualification rulings when it seems in truth that maybe they don't.
I am going to put my hand up and say that I am slightly confused.
I am going to put my hand up and say that I am slightly confused.
I posted this statement about 3 weeks ago and got royally shot for suggesting there might be a chance. I reckon we are in....
If we were in then we would have heard bout it in the media by now. End of.
What about the Intertoto Cup? Can we not get in that way?!
Or the fair play trophy? If only Tiny hadn't got sent off we woud be in the Champions League, er the Europa League, er no we wouldn't. As Sam puts it so concisely, it would have been in the paper by now so I think we can rule out trips to Luxembourg, Bulgaria and Finland for another year
Glad that you're not one of those morons cycling on the pavement, Karl.
FFS ! Who cares !?
We're not in Europe next season...
End....
We're not in Europe next season...
End....
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story/_/id/1075537/dale-johnson:-european-honours-2011-12?cc=4716
Premier League
Champions League: Manchester City (champions), Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea (Champions League and FA Cup winners)
Europa League group stage: Tottenham Hotspur
Europa League final qualifying round: Newcastle United
Europa League third qualifying round: Liverpool (Carling Cup winners)
Premier League
Champions League: Manchester City (champions), Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea (Champions League and FA Cup winners)
Europa League group stage: Tottenham Hotspur
Europa League final qualifying round: Newcastle United
Europa League third qualifying round: Liverpool (Carling Cup winners)
I don't particularly care if we're in Europe next year, and we're not, but can I get clarification on something?
UEFA gives the FA the number of teams it can have qualify, for each competition, and the FA then decides which criteria each spot requires? I thought that was the case. Not UEFA dictating which teams get in.
Might be wrong, but that was my understanding.
UEFA gives the FA the number of teams it can have qualify, for each competition, and the FA then decides which criteria each spot requires? I thought that was the case. Not UEFA dictating which teams get in.
Might be wrong, but that was my understanding.
So are Everton in the Europa League then?
OK... we're not in Europe.
Moyes Out! ... or In!
Moyes Out! ... or In!
If Englebert had won The Eurovision, would Everton have quali....
Eugene I've checked the UEFA website, because Norway didn't get in the top six last night and top the Fair Play League the extra place goes to the Norwegian team with the most players called Magnus which this year is Viking Stavanger.
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380 Posted 20/05/2012 at 15:13:13
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I take the "one additional place" to be referring to the team who finished fourth and would otherwise be in the final Champions League spot.