Another piss poor start, being out of the cup we have the most realistic chance of winning, and playing catch up in the league shouldn't be accepted.

The problem is that we haven't had anyone scoring goals at the start of each season, and for some reason we tend to concede soft goals early in every season. After a few weeks of this, Moyes (or the players) seem to lose faith and revert to a more "backs to the walls" approach and ekeing out 1-0 victories.

We should, next season, of course have Jelavic hopefully continuing to score goals, so maybe things will be different this time around. Or maybe we'll contrive to find some other reason to post poor results early in the season. But I think it's simplistic, and wrong, to say that Moyes starts every season employing negative tactics or not "giving it a go". It's just that, when it doesn't work, he reverts to pragmatic type in an effort to ensure we don't stuggle against relegation the entire season.

I actually thought we started this season with positive intent but quickly had to revert to type when we kept getting pipped.

The addition of a goalscorer will make a difference and we just need that all important luck.

If fate conspires with us rather than against us and we stay injury free, anything is possible.

The mid - table teams are more or less safe in the league, and towards the end of the season there are dead - rubber games.

Is this the reason why we always have a good second half to the season ? Moyes keeps them motivated against teams feeling the pace ?

Whatever the reason, 6 points after the first 6 games next season is not good enough, he knows we always start poorly, so he has all pre-season to sort it.

The Moyes/Kenwright combination is cancerous for our club in my opinion. Moyes will never rock the boat to force Kenwright to find investment provided Kenwright pays him handsomely and never puts Moyes under any pressure to do anything other than achieve 17th place. Infact I reckon he still wouldn't get rid of Moyes if he took us down.

While Moyes has ready-made excuses for failure(knife to a gunfight etc), I don't believe we'll ever win anything significant with him in charge. Winning requires a certain mentality and Moyes simply doesn't have it.

It MAKES them sound like Davina McCall INTERVIEWING some talentless non-entity from BIG BROTHER

Very please...

The season before last we played tippy tappy football with no end product. However, I feel Jelavic is a cut above the likes of the woeful Beckford and Saha and I feel we've got much better balance in midfield with Gibson and Fellaini.

We don't need a sugar daddy but we do need someone who is business savvy and who can at least keep us competitive. If Moyes was given a modest £20M, I would like to see what results he could achieve then judge him. And that is £20M without forcing him to sell anyone first! The reality is though we will start another season with a threadbare squad again. We can't even compete to sign a few few transfers. While even the likes of Southampton are bidding for £7M+ players.

I've flip flopped on Moyes. From thinking his achievements (and they really are achievements) made him worth the job, to despising the football we play and wanting him gone at any cost.

Common sense tells me that his true worth is somewhere in the middle ground.

To defend him, watch the team of 3 years ago that he patiently put together. His style still got criticised but that team played some cracking stuff. Then got pulled apart through no fault of his own.

My optimism each year has ended up being misguided, but I firmly believe that Jelavic changes everything. Nothing prior is relevant when we suddenly have a genuine goalscorer on our hands.

Swansea played 'good' football... they finished below us.
Wigan played 'good' football... they finished below us.

What I want from Moyes is passion and intent to believe we are the greatest football club to grace the Earth.
We are the most successful founders of the football league, the therefore guardians of football as a sport.

We have a team capable of beating everyone in the league on our day.
So let our day be everyday next season.
The league, the cups, Everton can dominate forever...

Oh no wait...
Moyes is still in charge
Jagielka is still hoofing
Cahill is doing nothing
Victor is eating
Barkley and Rodwell are sitting on the bench
and Kenwright is still our chairman...

At least we're not Liverpool...

I find myself agreeing with Doddy (a novelty), I only ever wanted Moyes out when it seemed that he either could not or would not budge from KITAP1 at home vs strugglers. He has shown on odd occasions that he can push the envelope of KITAP1 (he doesn't go so far as putting an airmail sticker on it and sending it round the world) but the last half of the season we played a bit better (except on 3 infamous occasions).

As Doddy says, if we get a decent start and keep on where we left off, who knows.

Doddy, start planning your campaign for Farther Christmas suits in August NOW... we need that good start.

He has had steady finishes now for ow many years?

Rodgers may get more time than Hodgson because Stevie Me Laaa likes him and is already standing up for him....nothing of the sort for old Woy was there? Also, I would expect Moyes to be put under massive pressure if he had just spent £100m and finished below his city rivals...How much did he spend last season? Minus £10m wasn't it?

I think it's interesting some have already come out and said they wanted Rafa. Poor start, and that will happen next.

The ideal scenario is they're solid lower mid-table until March and then switch to relegation form - whatever happens I expect Moyes to treat them differently next season - Zero respect, go out and tear then a new one.

I've never seen us treat a fellow big side with zero respect. I'd love it if we did though, our first 11's good enough.

Every season we finish well and motivation is high.

Davie boy gives his list of recommended additions to Elstone and Kenwright.

Kenwright invites Davie down to London and over a cup of tea persuades him that he will be working 24/7 to get what Moyes wants.

Moyes waits and waits then a big offer comes in late in the summer for one of our best players.

More tea with Bill who explains we cannot afford to let such a good offer go.

Davie fights his corner but with the player and agent getting warmed up to a big fee and wages structure and more? chance of winning things Davie has lost the players will.

Davie gets pissed off and walks around Finch Farm with a face like a squashed potato leaves Round to do the preparartions while he sulks.

Squad gets demotivated and starts the season poorly.

We get to the end of the calendar year in the shit and amid calls for Davies head, falling gates and marches against Bill and the board Davie realises he has got to get a grip and a pair of balls.

Davie has another cup of tea with Bill and says what hapeened to the tranfer budget you are always telling the press we have.

Bill goes under his mattress and magically finds some of the 24 million operating cots that he wasnt aware was there and tells Davy he can go shopping but only after cutting the wage bill.

Davie gets all excited, tells the squad we are going places and results start to improve.

We finish the season with top 3 form which allied to the bottom four form earlier means we end up mid table.

Everybody is happy and really looking forward to next season and Bill and Davie are safe for another year.

And so the cycle begins again.

Is it us or the RS who are the deludes?

But the MOTD pundits will never be too outspoken. The Beeb got their fingers burnt with Ferguson when he blanked them for years for daring to suggest in a Panorama programme that one of his sons was making money off the back of his reputation.

Their recent £180m investment for 3 years of highlights, plus the £40k per show they pay the likes of Hansen, puts them firmly in the pockets of their paymasters.

If anyone believes that the "insight" offered by the likes of Hansen and Shearer is worthy of consideration, then good luck to them. The only one I have a semblance of respect for as a pundit is Lawrenson.

The Beeb are by no means the worst, but if you're an ex player who doesn't have the ability to make it as a manager/coach, go to punditry. It was fine when they earned a relative pittance compared to what they're on now.

Anyone remember how we were used by Andy Gray to get a better screw out of Sky? Dodged a bullet on that one. We'd have been a laughing stock.

Having said that I do think we will start off strong this time IF - apologies for capitals everyone- Pienaar Baines Felli and Jely are still there up to December. Am I a naive idiot or am I reading this one right?

As regards to whether they'll all still be here, I think it's not naive, but more realism that suggests it's unlikely. Sadly.

Lawrenson???

For me pundits give people an opinion when they can't formulate one of thier own. The amount of redshite fans who parrot Aldridge, who is the ultimate cliche spouter, is astonishing, no matter how far off he is.

This means these pundits are deciding what a portion of the fan base will think, accept and aspire to.

Only last season have their former players stopped touting them as potential champions despite only going close once in the last twenty years.

One of the probs I see with the better player argument is what happened with our "best squad" of a couple of seasons ago? We were dire.

If Moyes has learnt we'll know straight away, if he reverts to the usual I think even his most loyal devotees will say enough is enough.

Our regular poor starts are down to David Moyes because he has failed to solve the problem. A similar start this season would be inexcusable. Do you agree?

How the fuck is that down to Moyes?

I have stated before, Moyes has lots of failings but some people are just so calculating in their unremorsfull attack on the man. Whatever you think, he has turned us around from being a perrenial relagation prospect, to a top ten side. He may be well paid, but he does not get much backing from the board.

Also, I acknowledge and admire the many qualities of David Moyes. However, in my view, Jay Harris makes a fair point; would you and others accept that barring catastrophic injuries bottom five by the end of November would be inexcusable and unacceptable?

The facts are there for all to see. There were a lot of posters on TW that believed we would get relegated because of our humble position last November/December. Some were convinced, however none of them are admitting their folly now. The reality is that where you are at that time of year is almost totally irrelevant, where you are after the last game is the only position that counts.

I have and will always suggest that we need to start better and if we do then I see little reason for us not to be in the top five, barring of course the catastrophic injuries that set us back the previous season. As for Jay Harris, I find that some of the comments are different to mine, we do not always see eye to eye.

The reality is that even though we have little cash to spend Moyes has made us a side that can hold our own; yes, it would be nice to make the next step but that is the responsibility of the board, not Moyes.

You seem determined to get rid of Moyes and find that mystical manager who can knit fog and turn us into the Champions elect. I believe that is not part of the reality of the PL as it was in the old Div 1 when sides came from nowhere to win the league. I wish, but those days are gone for now and maybe for ever.

I don't want to be in that position again. I agree with you that times have changed but do you think that last season was okay? I believe that we under achieved in the league. We dropped points, early on, that could have made April much more exciting.

The FA cup was a shite game that could have gone either way but there is a pattern of failure at the really important moments. I make no apology for believing that a different coach might have and could do better but David Moyes is here to stay and my post was only suggesting what we should hope for whlie he is here.

Absolutely spot on

This inevitably led to a fall in confidence and we started playing defensively to try and nick some points.

We need to sign Pienar to maintain the confidence and not give the players any excuses. I just hope Fellaini doesn't go because he is massive for us.

Vellios did the best of all our strikers but he only got a handful of games, and not even starting those games.
Also Moyes waits to long to make subs and we end up giving away points because of it.
Moyes is not flexible, no matter how well our young players play they end up sitting on the bench.

Play the players that show form during games and leave out the ones that show nothing, no matter what their names are!!!!
Moyes stubborn picking of Cahill despite the fact we could all see he was out of form just goes to show my point.
History is the same, Saha got starts while Yakubu showed better form during games.

To be stubborn to the point that Moyes does can only get you to 7th or 8th, but not further.
Moyes needs to learn, but after 10 years I have lost my faith in him learning.
He stays the same dour manager, he never learns, that is why we start poorly each season.

I remember Moyes saying before last season that he would only play those that showed form, too bad he goes back on his word.
Also he said we would see Barkley playing more from April, but he never did.

As a result I do not trust Moyes to take care of our youngsters anymore.
He might finish 7th or 8th but to me that matters less then Barkley and Vellios getting the right playing time during a season.
It just makes me angry.
A change is needed, just like Sunderland needed a change.

You do know that Sunderland gained less points than the season before don't you?

Tony#691 - leave Jimmy alone, he didnt mention the ' D ' word once in that post.. its a long hard battle that he may be winning now..