Levy and Redknapp have only ever had what can at best be described as a working relationship (everything Redknapp says could be construed as veiled criticism) and, when he pushed for a longer contract, Levy saw his chance. Moyes, as we know, will never criticise his employers ? big tick.

I was particularly interested in your last question: "What do others see in Moyes?" Well, let's put ourselves in their shoes for a second.

If I support Man Utd, I think Moyes is the manager who derailed my team's title hopes. The guy whose team wouldn't lie down when we were beating them 3-1 at GP the year before; a guy whose team containing 'cost nothing' or 'cost little' players like Rodwell, Ossie, Hibbert and Cahill absolutely twated us the year before at GP... AND despite having three key players missing, knocked us out of the cup.
I see a guy our manager (the greatest ever) much admires, a guy to very be wary of. A guy to bear in mind when SAF eventually goes... The MOB see only his record at OT

If I`m a City supporter, I will see a manager who sent his team out at OT to stun Man Utd and put us back in the hunt. I won't be surprised by this because he has turned the financial argument on its head by systematically beating us both at GP AND on our own midden for years... The MOB prefer to concentrate on his one defeat in recent years.

If I'm RS, I see a guy who, despite huge differences in spend power, has still finished above KK this season; I see a guy who shouldn't (given financial differences) be but does push us all the way to finish higher most seasons.. The MOB think only of our record at Anfield and the defeat at Wembley.

If I'm a Spurs fan, I too may see the guy whose team derailed our title ambitions; a guy who has comes to WHL and takes more points than most managers (even the top ones); a guy who generally finishes within a couple of places (either way) of us, and I probably wonder how the fuck he does it... The MOB pretend Spurs are not top four when they talk about his away record at "top 4" grounds.

If I'm a Chelsea fan, I wonder how we have sooooo much trouble beating them when we can spend more on one player than they can on a team... The MOB talk only about not beating them in the final, despite being without key players.

If I support any of the other teams ? Newcastle, Sunderland, Villa ? I look at our greater spending power and attendances and wonder how this guy manages to find the sort of consistency over the years that we can only dream of...

If I'm a reporter, I see a very dignified and fair-minded manager who never criticises the opposition.

If I'm another Manager, I see a fierce competitor, a poker player, one whose humble demeanour masks a shrewd and deep knowledge of a game, somebody who has to be respected.

If I'm a bookie, I see him as a twat... The Mob agree.

Thick as I am I get most of that... but what the fuck is MOB???

I hope he doesn't go... Not because I love him as much as I just don't see the grass as being greener with someone else...

Martinez, Hughes, Alladyce and others just don't cut it in my opinion and good foreign coaches want money to spend.
We could look at a Poyet or Howe but would they do a better job then we already have?

Lescott came in with a reputation for being injured, Jagielka as a championship utility player both cost about 9 million. Now they're two of the best centrebacks in England with a combined value of around 40 million. Which other manager in recent times has taken a left back from one of the league's bottom clubs and made him into the best in the premier league. Which other manager in recent times has bought a striker from a lower tier European league for 5.5 million and turned him into one of the premier league's best? We take all of this for granted, the minimum baseline level of performance that Moyes should be doing for his weeky wage, and we assume that all other managers share this quality. They don't, do you not think Levy watches Everton beat Spurs (again) sees Jelavic scoring and wonders why despite shelling out millions, Rednkapp can't get one consistent front man out of Pavlyuchenko, Defoe, Adebayor and formerly Bent? I bet he also wonders why he has to buy defenders every single year, Dawson, Kaboul, Gardiner, Bassong, Gallas, why none of them can ever stay fit, and why their defensive record is so bad, so bad that Redknapp wanted to buy Vertonghen. A quick look at Goodison shows Moyes with three of the league's best centrebacks, always fit, with one of the best defensive records. For every one good player at Spurs there have been about 5 attempts to get it right, Moyes doesn't need that many chances, he takes two at max and normally only one, and he always makes a profit from trading. He's probably Levy's dream. Ah wait I forgot, he couldn't 'handle' Drenthe.......terrible man-manager....Moyes out.

Take a bow

"I bet he also wonders why he (Redknapp) has to buy defenders every single year"
Maybe becuase Radknapp has a vested financial interest in incoming/outgoing transfers.

Or his dog has.

I saw a comment on here recently dismissing the rumour that Moyes will go to Man U because he has never won a trophy. I think people need to look beyond that. Alex McLeish has won a trophy, Juande Ramos won a trophy, but does that make them great managers? Look at teams abroad - Massimiliano Allegri was made AC Milan manager after doing a decent job at Cagliari on a limited budget (sound familiar?). And Barcelona are replacing the most successful manager in the clubs history with the reserve team manager! Why, because they believe in his vision, not because he had a lucky cup run and lifted a trophy.

My point is that I think we are too quick to dismiss the talents of our manager. Yes, he has his faults, but in today's game I think he has done a pretty impressive job. The most frustrating thing from a fans point of view is that we probably can't push on too much more without investment. That is the modern game for you.

So why not Moyes for Spurs or Man Utd, or any of the other top jobs. Be careful what you wish for, because sooner or later Moyes probably will go and then we might end up with one of those trophy-winning managers like McLeish or Ramos, God help us!

I see a manger who sends out a hard working team. They are well organised and always play 4-5-1. He plays percentages and keeps us in the P.L.

We always play better in the second half of every season, and have recently started every season in relegation form.

His main aim is safety - to reach forty points, he then takes the shackles off his team.

He has an awful away record at certain grounds.

He never surprises me with his tactics.

He is paid £3m a year - so he should be good.

We have some top earners and many Internationals in our team - we are not Wolves or Bolton.

Expectations are that low with our board, his only brief is to keep us in the league - the style of football or how we get there is irrevelant.

He has never won a trophy in his managerial career, this mediocrity is accepted at our club.

He has had ten years to mold his teams, and players into HIS footballing philosophy - damage limitation at bigger clubs.

He will never change.

"He is paid £3m a year - so he should be good." - The heads of the banks that took us into a recession were paid astronomical amounts, wages doesn't equate to being good, just look at Anichebe's pay packet if you doubt me.

"His main aim is safety - to reach forty points" - Common misconception....or deliberate misunderstanding of his comments. He said his FIRST aim was 40 points.

"we are not Wolves or Bolton" - Correct, we have not been relegated.

"He has had ten years to mold his teams" and about five of them seeing the team he has moulded being dismantled to settle the bank bill.

He has many faults, he is frustrating and his is the above average manager of a mid table team. Unfortunately a lot of Evertonians believe we should be doing so much better with that combination. It's not accepting mediocrity, it the realisation that we are nowhere near as good as we like to think we are, manager and team wise.

I have to admit to being very dissillusioned with Moyes at the turn of the year and have been trying to convince myself since the Spurs rumours surfaced that I wasnt bothered if he left.

However your two excellently written posts bring it home to me what an excellent manager we have and why would we want that taken away.As I say, two excellent posts.

At the moment, everyone seems scared of him leaving as the only alternative available ? according to the media... when any job becomes available ? is Martinez. I don't believe this is the case; if Moyes were to leave in the summer, the man I'd like to see take over is the soon-to-be unemployed Croatian Manager and former Everton centre-back, Slaven Bilic.

Many clubs would want him but ? due to our history with the player and the presence of Jelavic ? I think we'd have a good chance of getting him. It may just be the change we need working with Moyes's well laid foundations to deliver us silverware....

The 2 things you won't see with Moyes are courage and a trophy, but carry on supporting him lads he's after a pay rise isn't he?

Timewasters.

Redknapp is a self-publicist, and had he accepted the contract extension when it was offered in February, there would've been no story. Tottenham stood by him over his court case, and whilst he was out having a celebratory dinner (with Levy), Fabio was resigning, and the circus began.

(The story about him taking a cut on transfers goes back to his stint at Portsmouth as Director of Football, not as manager, and not at any other club).

I don't think Moyes sees this as a pay rise either. I doubt Tottenham will pay him more than he is on now, but I could see BK shitting himself at the thought of his heat shield leaving, and even though we can't afford it, offering him another £1m a year to stay.

Try -just this once - to get your head around the point of the thread.

The guy asked "so what do others see in Davey that we might be missing"

In your case, the answer is quite clearly, everything

BTW If I was a chairman of another club, I would look at the 800k a place thats up for grabs and wonder why MY manager doesnt pull in more than we actually pay him too. . . .The Mob will of course ignore the fact that Moyes averages around 57 points per season and will insist is aim is to reach 40.

The clue lies in the word "first"

Some people like to like to take it one game at a time and their "first" target is three points . .

That comes as no surprise from a man who, when asked his target for the coming campaign, replies every August: "To win the league."

From:http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jun/14/tottenham-david-moyes-everton

Don't you think this attitude is the main reason we have to watch safety first mind numbing football at times ?

He is a good, safe, Premier League manager - he will never be a visionary like Wenger, Mourinho or Ferguson. Give him twenty years, we will still be watching the same tactics.

Some say safety is good enough, fine.

He lowers all expectations - fair enough.

He talks as if we are a newly promoted team every season. And that really fucking annoys me.

I think most of us Moyes supporters are prepared to agree that he has his weaknesses and flaws but the likes of Barry Rathbone and Peter Barry's inability to see what he has done discredits their arguments hugely...

Remind me again about all the money Birmingham and Portsmouth were 'throwing at it'?

Oh well. it must be that along the way someone made us a better side, gave us some hope and improved our standing. I guess that same person is guilty of us getting too confident in our new found hope and we now feel so bad because we dont win the league. Ergo it must be that same person who is letting us down, failing us in our new found hope and not delivering the massive leap in fortunes that our new found hope expects, based on his initial development that has of course been halted by the board who fail almost every year to back the man who gave us the vision.

Oh how fickle this game can be. His failings are now down to his failure to continue our impressive climb back to where we believe we belong and these little backsteps are all his fault. After all does he not know that we are Everton and we demand miracles!!

I think ( and this is the crux of the entire Moyes debate) Expectations were lowered long before he got here. The MOB seem to forget (choose to forget) that we spent much of the nineties EXPECTING no more than a relegation battle.

Moyes may not have brough expectation back to the level they once were but you need to remember that at a time when people like Wenger, Fergie, Jose, Mancini and Rafa have been attracting some of the very best players on the planet. Moyes has worked for Bill Kenwright
In my book this makes him the most disadvantaged manager in Evertons history and is in my opinion the reason so many people cut him so much slack.

If you insist on making comparisons between a cash strapped Moyes and Fergusen, Wenger and Mourinho ( the best three managers in 20 years ) who were able to field players such as Rooney, Cantona, Henry. Bergkemp, and Drogba, then I`m afraid you will always be disappointed.

Eric

If a premiership manager ever tells you he doesnt target getting to 40 points as soon as possible, he is not only a fool, he is also taking you for one.

Absolutely!!

On the other hand, we have been in the P.L. since it's inception - on of the seven " ever presents." We also have a £50m wage bill and players on 50- 60k a week. We get thirty-odd thousand for most home games and sell out most away games.

So I would hope by now, our main aim would be not to avoid relegation, and at least expect exciting football now and again.

B.T.W. Ex-players I have spoken to agree Moyes risk averse,especially in big games. Ask Howard Kendall.

I do not want Moyes to leave because he has not won the title, I want him to change the way we play at times, but that won't happen, will it ?

Look at the difference between the first and second halves of last season. Two totally different teams practically, playing very different styles of football. The main reason? Moyes was given a little money to spend and brought in gibson, jelavic, pienaar and donavan. Amazing what some board backing can do...

It also has to be said that while he may not be an Ian Holloway type of gung ho advocate or a total purist like Wenger, he clearly does like the team to play good football. He's done it this season with backing, and in 2008 and 2009 with Arteta, Pienaar and Osman playing those little triangles and Yakubu on form I thought our football was as good as anyone in the league.

What none of us know is what pressure he's under from the board. I know some people on here like to pretend he has a cushy job, but if he's constantly being told that if we get relegated the club will go bust, or that the extra money for each league place is vital to give to the banks, then it's hardly surprising he plays it safe.

If and when Moyes goes we will be OK, we will not suddenly plummet to the depths of the Conference, we WILL be OK. And believe you me if Moyes leaves there will be queue round to the Bullens Road for the Everton Job.

Last year for the first time since I was 14, won't tell you how old I am now as Michael gets a shit on, I had to think very long and very hard about renewing. Only a good run before the end swayed me in the buy direction. Some of the shite we churned out earlier in the season was some of the worse I've ever seen. After the Anfield Derby debacle I wanted him sacked the next day, same again after Wembley.

So if Moyes goes then fine, lets get behind the new man and lets see if we can get a full season of good football, not just 3 months at the end. My personal choice would be Harry Rednapp, and I think Cockerney or not, he'd come to us in a shot.

I think we need to look inside our club for our next manager.
We have Alan Irvine,Phil Neville and David Weir, all good candiddates for the job.
My favourite would be Phil Neville, but the other two are decent too.

We need to sort the manager question out quick.
Spurs need to find their man and be done with it, the longer this drags on the worse it gets.
I fear we will not get Pienaar now, the new manager will want to keep him.

Moyes needs to act now to get Pienaar, Kenwright needs to get busy and back Moyes up on what he wants.

If we lose our manager to Spurs then I fear Kenwright will blow it and hire the wrong type of manager we need.
We have to face it, Kenwright is clueless, he will fuck it up somehow.
The only thing he can do is to give Moyes what he wants.

What has the man done so bad that he should be sacked? Lost three times to the Shite?.....nothing new there really from most of the previous managers (apart from Royal) Not won a trophy? If that's the reason, most will need the boot, even Wenger...that Ferguson won nowt last year too.

More than likely, he hasn't lived up to the high expectations of the fans who like to quote Nil Satis Nisi Optimum at things they think should be better than what they are. Usually these fans try and blame others for how far we have fell or state that they have accepted mediocrity.

I support Everton FC and will support whichever manager is at the helm.....until they give me a reason to not support them. A 7th place finish after a disastrous start isn't a reason for me, especially when after 3 years the board gives him money and he gets the team player better with the players he has brought in.

"Pienaar should be with us by now" - Why, so we can pay his wages whilst he is on his holidays?, Also forgive me if I am wrong but the transfer window isn't open yet.

Strengths
Honest, dignified,hardworking,experienced,good tactician,good man motivator,good talent spotter, Loves the club.

Weaknesses
Overcautious, Obstinate,can be sulky at times.

I think we are better with him than without him but with serious money behind the club would look at other up and coming people with new tactical appproaches.

If only somebody would come in for Billy Liar!!!

But Man U could get just about anyone. The greatest talents on the planet would not turn down Man U. Like it or not, they are probably the biggest club in the world - only Barca and Madrid could compete for the title. And if it were a choice between Mourinho, Guardiola and Moyes. DM would struggle to make third.

However, that is a further reason why I am nervous over the Spurs link. Moyes could not get the Man U job, and unless he knows of a deal waiting to be inked when SAF departs, I imagine DM understands that too. So what clubs are available below a Man U level, which he could take, that would put him in with a chance of CL and football and titles - cos that is not penniless Everton?

Chelsea?
forget it; Abramovic does not do UK managers.
Man City;
Mancini has just bought himself at least two years extra, and they could probably call on just about anyone, too.
RS
For the lousy team it currently has, it will have more resources than most: impossible. He'd have to live in London and take training behind guarded fences;
Arsenal;
again cannot see Wenger departing anytime soon...remember, although silverware has been lost for years, he turns a profit for the board every year.

That leaves Spurs.
He will either remain loyal to us and his team, believing that despite experience and lack of resources that we can compete for top and a Cup, or Spurs look - frankly, his best option.

I fear the end is nigh.

If all your bothered about is the whole picture,meaning where we finish the season and you dont care how we get there or how we do in individual matches then i'm not going to argue you with you over that because Moyes is delivering that you expect so why would you want him to leave and I i'm happy with our league finishes under him..I'm not saying you are right or wrong but some people want more than just results.

If i'm paying about £600 for a season ticket then I also want to be entertained.Out of the 19 home games we had this season there wasnt many times I was pleased with what I had seen from the team in possession of the ball.

The derby matches matter to me,no other game can come close to the way I feel about them games so I was disgusted and angered by Moyes's action at Anfield and for me that only deserved the sack.

With regards to how other teams look at us,I think other teams fans do think Moyes does a good job but never the less I think they also go into matches against us expecting 3 points and more often than not get them.

I'm not one of those who expects us to be beating the top teams away but the law of averages says we should have done more at those grounds.His tactics away to the top clubs are usually to sit back,work hard and we might be able to keep a clean sheet while showing little ambition to attack.When we go away to the top clubs chances are we're going to get beat anyway no matter what the tactics are but it still doesnt say much for Moyes to keep deploying the same tactics no matter how many times its failed.

The same goes for the cups,I dont expect them but I see no reason why a team thats been best of the rest for most of the last 10 years cant win one,we had a decent chance this year but we blew it and it was all we deserved for the way we played.

Sometime ago I wrote, after a poor show, who should replace Moyes"fucking anybody". A silly comment made out of frustration and in anger.Obviously I don't believe,in the cold light of day, that anyone could replace him and I think it a little unfair that you should talk of "the mob", a term I dislike as much as apologist, wanting anyone.

Like you I believe Moyes is a hired hand, while we are here for life. I would like to see him go to Spurs but if he stayed and said he wanted to finish the job then I might start thinking he is an Evertonian. I would still criticise him but would respect him.

I said earlier that if he turned down Spurs it wouldn't be for lack of confidence or fear. I would like him to go but if he was offered the job and turned it down I believe it would be for admirable reasons. Dave the"mob"don't want "anyone" we want the same as you.

Quick hypothetical question - would moyes have got the liverpool job if he had been anywhere else other than Everton?

Who would be better than moyes and we could realistically get. Answers like anyone don't count.

"With regards to how other teams look at us,I think other teams fans do think Moyes does a good job but never the less I think they also go into matches against us expecting 3 points and more often than not get them."

Are you really saying that most teams play against us and take three points off us? More often than not, get 3 points off us? Are you just intent on making shit up, or do you think people will beleive your propaganda?

There are some prize comments made on Toffeeweb, I did not think you would be making one though! You have just moved into JS territory.

On Dave's post when he said about how clubs looks at us,the main examples he gave was through the eyes of the top teams supporters so I responded with how I think the top teams look at us.Maybe I should have stated that but thought it was obvious.

Of course I dont think every team thinks they'll get 3 points,I bet all teams would never expect to be on the wrong side of a hiding though.As for the top sides fans I bet they all look at us as an easy 3 points.

Beat city at home
Beat spurs at home
Narrow defeat against united and blew their league campaign
Beat Chelsea at home
Beat Newcastle at home

Not too bad then.

The mob will say negative tactics keep the score line down, the apologists will say with a jelavic these can be overcome and the gap to change is small I.e draws to wins, losses to draws.

The point Dave made and I responded to was about clubs perceptions of us.It doesnt matter if we did team a couple of them teams at home,going into the game they would have expected a win.

You say it was obvious that you were responding on behalf of the fans of the top teams. Hmm, if you say so! As for the real fans of the top teams, I beleive they all hope to get results and are relieved when they do, but the reality is more a case of they just dont take us for granted like they do with other clubs.

Your suggestion that they think we are an easy 3 points is just more of your silly statements. Keep digging, you may have a big enough hole to build a new ground and save the board a few quid!!

Out of the 34 lines Dave wrote about how other teams look at us, 30 were about the top teams, so I think it's fair to assume the main focus of what he wrote was about how the top teams look at us.

Do you really think Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs, Man City or Man Utd fans don't expect to beat us when they regularly do? Over Moyes's reign, we have a history of taking few points off these teams except for City (who haven't been a top team for long). Maybe the management don't take us for granted but I bet the fans do.

The fact is the record wasn't too shabby when most of us on the board had us for a relegation scrap until January given how poor the strike force was. Most teams know they are in for a game when they play us, and it's frequently said by players and managers that they don't look forward to playing us.

Some need to remove the chip off their shoulder that this is some little pat on the head. Jelavic and Fellaini give us the tools to challenge the best and, bar City away, we should fear no-one anymore.

I'll throw all the succesful sides as lessons in history, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, even the recent United. Lots of 1-0 wins. I would venture to say that Everton will be more successful playing defensively responsibily and winning, rather than paying champagne Spurs stuff that fizzles out.

How many of their fans have you talked to? I only see the odd fan of the top clubs where I live and work (or not work recently), but the ones I do speak to, who are not friends just people I meet say pretty much the same thing. That is they are glad to beat us but they just don't expect it to be that way.
Maybe the people where you live, or those that talk to you just say things to get the "rise" out of you! Who knows?

Most fans I speak to say that we just need a couple of signings, but that has been our problem for years. They all think that Kenwright is a good chap!! So I really take what others say with a rather large pinch of salt!!

I have never wanted us to play all out attack.I like us being a hard working team thats solid at the back,I just wish we showed as much commitment when on the ball and show desire to get forward.Away at the top sides i'd say if we concentrated 65% on defence and 35% on attack then we would have a better chance of winning rather than Moyes's 95% defending.

I live in Liverpool so everyone is an Everton or Liverpool fan so I rarely speak to other fans but why would I need to,if a team has a history of beating the same team (or at least rarely getting beat by them) year in year out why wouldnt they expect to do it again?

Fulham have a poor record against us so for that reason I expect us to do well against them.

So let me get this right,your saying that when you talk to people you dont know but they know your an Evertonian they then dont say bad things about Everton.I wonder why that is?

A Saha, Cahill and arteta of 5 years ago, or now? Put Donovan, pienaar, jelavic and Fellaini in offensive positions you can play the good stuff. If you play a Saha, Cahill, Coleman and victor take a good book as you could get more enjoyment watching it on teletext.

I actually agree with a lot of what your saying,I'm sure most fans around the country look at us and think we're a good side,a couple of players short of a very good one but the tops teams fans would still expect 3 points off us no matter what they think of us.

We're not going to play the likes of Arsenal off the pitch but even with the players you mentioned is there a reason not to set the team up to attack against the teams in the bottom half?

You make comments about other teams fans with no facts so how can the evidence tell you anything? To make the statements you have I would have expected you to at least spoken to fans of those clubs, that would at least validate your comments, but no, you just decided that because they have beaten us before they expect to. On that basis, will any club ever get a win over one that it hasnt beaten for a while?

Yes indeed, when I speak to fans of other clubs they show a great deal of respect, they even know a lot about our team, management and board. It may be that living in LIverpool that the views of others is extremely tainted by the very nature of where you are! Or to put it bluntly, not every fan of another club is an arsehole. They are often really nice people with very valid views. Your perception just shows me that outside of the city people are more objective when talking about the opposition. It is quite interesting as it means that we probably get a more balanced view outside Liverpool than you do in Liverpool. (That is not a slight on you or Liverpool the city and its folk).

With the players he brought in, did he not attack? If he signs pienaar/or similar and brought someone else in (not sure how but lets pretend he is given the basic tools of a kitty and not having to sell the players he wants to keep) I would disappointed if we didn't fancy putting on more of a show.

Howard
Coleman Heitinga Distin baines
Barkley Rodwell Gibson pienaar
Fellaini
Jelavic

A couple of decent loan signings and we look a decent side that has attacking intent at full back, can keep it tight at the back, can score goals in midfield and has a striker to pinch goals when it's tight. I feel quite optimistic again. another beer nurse please.

When did I slag off other clubs supporters or the people of other cities?

The tops teams expect to beat everyone who isnt also a top team,its not just Everton,the reason there top teams is because they win most games.I dont need to speak to anyone to know the top teams expect 3 points from weaker sides.The same way I expect Everton to beat the teams battling relegation.It might not always happen but its what I expect.

The main problem for me is the set up,I know it all depends on how you play it but to me its detrimental to attacking.Always playing a holding midfielder and just 1 striker even at home to Wigan puts me on a downer before a ball is kicked.

Interesting you have Coleman at right back,I also want him to be given a go there to see what he can do.Not many people agree though.

The downer is we don't have the money for those 3 players which Moyes can do nothing about.

It does boil down to money but we're overloaded with centre midfielders.Even if Moyes rates them all and wants to keep them all wouldnt it be in the teams best interest to reluctantly let one go so we could bring in a cheap winger like Snodgrass?

He might have no money but his stubborness in wanting to keep his squad together at the expense of strengthening other areas is a weakness for me,how can a team that focuses nearly all its attacks down the flanks not have a single winger on the books?

He is a stubborn old bastard, but that's what makes us the better than the sum of the parts.

I think we do need to be over weight in midfield given the way we play being honest, but would be happy with the current squad plus the above signings the ability to sign a couple of £5m players that he can groom into £25m players like cabbage, tiote, Ben rafa, etc etc. players are out there.

You could well be right about clubs not bidding for players but i'm sure clubs let others know if someone is available without putting them on the transfer list.i'm off anyway.

I may be wrong but I believe the term 'apologist' is used as a very deliberate attempt to insult. The term 'MOB' was an abbreviation created by somebody far cleverer than me ? I suspect it was KH ? I always felt people who wanted Moyes gone kinda embraced it.

However, I see your point; two wrongs not making a right...

MOB is not a term you will see me use again.

I see it as an opportunity to progress but Kenwright could fuck up big time. He'll want to do it cheap and I dread and fear a promotion from within; they rarely work. My choice has been Hoddle for some time but there is not a hope in hell that Bill will countenance that. I feel our best chance is for Kenwright to recruit someone with a bit of knowledge to draw up a short list.

I am an Everton fan and I see crap football every other week from August to the middle of January.

Worse, I see non winning football every other week from August to the middle of January.

It doesn;t get much better after that but at least we start winning more than we don't win.

We desperately need a change of direction and unless the attacking line ups in the last few weeks of the season just passed are the results of a light bulb moment for Moyes (Anfield and Wembley notwithstanding) then I think only a new manager can provide it.

It ain't going to happen, though.

Spurs will not employ Moyes, IMO.

And even if they wanted him, he won't leave the most secure job in football, where mediocrity is regarded as a sign of greatness, to go some place where he will be expected to play expansive, winning football and will be judged very harshly if he falls below expectations.

Moyes heading south is a pipedream.

We are destined for, in the words of 40,000 Kopites on that shameful March evening, "ten more years".

The new Dario Gradi.

Some of his positive results came through enforced changes and injuries yet he is hailed by his APOLOGISTA as a genius, if he deserves praise he deserves criticism too.

I think he is a very good manager, I think he has shown a lot of very good traits. I just think that he has never managed to be consistant over the course of a full calender year, including the season, pre season and transfer window.

The game has produced great managers over the years, SAF, Wenger, Paisley, Clough and our very own Kendal. Maybe I'm deluded, a different era and cos of money this isn't possible now. If you look at rest of European leagues even minnows have come good , just not in England when jt's a merri go round cos of slyly hype.

Answering the article, why moyes, cos he's an excellent manager whilst Red knapp is average at best and been poor with resources and players he inherited in 4 years and fact he's interested in how rich his dog is

And once you find that great manager, how long do you think you'll keep him?

For me the club motto is true , it's engrained in me, I love the club and will never settle for less

Not being able to keep hold of someone is no reason to not want them at the club,would you pass up Messi because he would be sold in the very next window?Some people see Moyes as a miracle worker,doing a job that nobody else is capable of doing yet he's clocked up 10 years without another club trying to take him off us.

As a minor cog in the MOB my main concern is with the continued poor starts and poor performances against, with all due respect, average teams at home, in short all the whole knife to gunfight bollocks, be it Vs City or Bolton. All I ever thought was needed was a ( permanent ) slight change in ethos, trying to win instead of trying not to lose.

But...

Shock Horror; at the though that Moyes might actually go, I find that I am experiencing a type of Institutionalism, a sort of Rainman dependance that all must remain the same, Monday is Roast Beef, Tuesday is soup... is everybody happy.... I used to think that all the be careful what you wish for we will automatically be relegated johnnys were having the vapours.

Moyes has to go some time, what will happen will happen, what ever we do.

So on the Moyes out thing put me down as a definate maybe, especially if he keeps going ultra cautious Vs Nomarks at home.

Also, If he doesn't even get an interview for the Spurs job, or comes out in public against going, well that puts Him and his place in the grand scheme of things in proper pespective ( I know my Place)

He would also have to change his backs to the wall, let's be the underdog mentality that he has always tried to foster, bar the season before last. They have legit claims to challenge the top two and that means going out and getting a win right from the off. That's something we have rarely done even when it was well within our capabilties.

I think he'd do quite well there but I don't think he would lead them to major honours.

This about sums it up for me. I've splinters in my arse from fence sitting with Moyes but the second half of the semi against the RS showed me he's not going to change and that was reinforced in the second half against Newcastle even though we were 3-0 up.

Holloway for example, with his solitary premier league season ending in glorious relegation, or Martinez and his fantastic feats of keeping a side in the same position as they were under the great steve bruce. Maybe you think the fantastic football served up by Martin O'Neill or Gus Poyet would take us to the next level, or even Owen Coyle.

I've heard all of these names put forward by the same people who think Moyes not managing Barcelona makes him useless, despite them being overlooked by the likes of Villa, Swansea, Norwich etc. Your logic is somewhat flawed I would suggest.

Also Eric, if you're going to complain about 3-1 victories against teams above us in the league it's possibly you who has the problem rather than the manager.

Well said!!

How many times has this football genius seen us last on this programme ?

A good measure of his style of play.

As far as I`m concerned your post provides a perfect example of lengths Moyes`s critics will go to to avoid being wrong.

We battered Newcastle, proper battered them with some dazzling football and anyone who saw the game knows we could easily have scored another 3-4 in the second half too.
You seem to think that Moyes was somehow responsible for Newcastle`s improvement in the second half, do you really have such a skewed view of the game ? do you really believe that a team which was still chasing a CL place was not going to have some periods of the game ?

You will ignore the fours we were scoring after we`d aquired a marksmen, You will ignore the fact that we were being applauded by home supporters at places like Swansea and Sunderland, You will ignore the way we stunned the entire football community with the quality of our attacks at Old Trafford . .and the reason you will ignore them is because you cant admit to being wrong, but guess what ? you are.
Anyone who saw Everton after the squad was strengthened, witnessed the style and panache with which we played and your repeated denial wont change that.

Derek Thomas

I support Moyes, but when he does eventually, move on I shall simply support his successor. I have always considered him a hired hand and I have absolutely no fear whatsover of him going.

The people banging on about fear of him going seem to be the people who are have criticised him incessantly for years.

Could that fear stem from the fact that you and others have been claiming for years that you know better and Moyes must go and a new manager would improve our situation ?

I dont want Moyes replaced, but if he is, I confidently predict that the people who blame him for everything and stubbornly deny the evidence of their own eyes when things have improved, will have their inability to grasp the situation at EFC well and truely exposed .

Could be wrong like

Being last on MOTD is more to do with the amount of RS fans who produce the program. Even when we are on, they show every attack against us whilst only showing a fraction of our attacks. Not to worry though because if you rate teams according to how long and what position they are on MOTD then I believe that you are severely misguided.

Firstly I've never been a critic of Moyes.

Secondly, it's not difficult for any team to improve in the second half of a game when we don't go out and attack but instead give up and soak up the pressure and hope to nick a goal.

In the case of Newcastle it was when we were 3-0 up and could still have easily lost the game after Hibbert's own goal. In most games it is when we are 1-0 up or 0-0 at half time and we end up turning those games into a draw or a loss.

If it is because of Moyes that things improve in the second half of the season who takes the credit for the dismal first half of the season?

If you're talking about the first half.

The second half was a completely different game. We should have played the second half in the same way we did the first.

A couple of seasons ago when there were only two matches due to the weather, us away at Arsenal in a scintillating 2-2 draw, and Utd at Birmingham in a dull 1-1.
MOTD still had us on second.

It's fuck all to do with Moyes or the way we play. It's someone at the BBC who doesn't like us.

We could have LOST against Newcastle?! Lost, as in the game?

Well yes, we could I suppose. If they'd scored another 3 goals without us scoring again. Then again, we could have won at Anfield in we'd just scored 4 so I guess that would have evened it out.

The current thinking is clearly avb or Capello which is great for efc. In Moyes I trust.

Moyes's shortcomings have been weighed up, they have been listed, examined. They have been objectively criticised, they have been both denied and exaggerated, they have been analysed, discussed, bisected and dissected. Unless we retrace old ground, there is simply nowhere else to go with the debate. It's all been said.

Now heres the thing... A guy makes a simple observation, he see's large sections of the football community (outside Evertonia) who really rate the man, so he asks the very relevant question: "What do they see that we don't?" Simple enough (or so you would think).

It's been a step too far for some people. God knows this site gives people their chance to criticise Moyes, but it's apparently not enough. Not only do they want the criticism hammered home relentlessly, but they want to act deaf dumb and blind to any of his strengths. They simply cannot bear it.

Ask yourself what the thread is about? Ask yourself why the critics want to come on and rage against the people saying positive things about the guy.

What I don't get is: if you "have never been a Moyes critic", why would you feel the need to continue to return to the thread criticising him to the point of claiming we could have lost a match which we could and should have won by 5-6 goals?

Anybody at the Newcastle game will tell you we had 3-4 guilt edged opportunities to increase our lead in the second half as we continued to carve them open right until the final whistle playing superb football.

Dimatteo fails at west brom and then wins the champions league. Roy hodge son does alright at fulham, gets one of the biggest jobs in world football - fails, does alright at west brom and then gets the England job. Moyes widely ackowledged by his peers as one of the best talents, winning boss of the season 3 times, and tipped to get the biggest job in world football ? and most on this site want him out.

Real World:

Johnny Heitinga came off to a great round of applause, to be replaced by Sylvain Distin for the final 20 minutes, Cabaye taking a potshot from distance that Howard could only parry for a corner. Hibbert, then scored a great headed goal... but in the wrong net, as Howard came off his line to collect a simple ball. Neville then came off, giving Tim Cahill a chance for a runout.

Howard made a great one-handed save right under the bar to deny Cisse as Everton sat back on their two-goal lead and tried to play out the final 15 mins, continuously giving the ball away until Pienaar saw some space and played in Jelavic for a great forward run but the Croat delayed to shoot or pass to Fellaini in a good position and the chance was lost.

Eric was being a bit silly stating we could have lost the game, but there was definitely a period when we sat back on our lead rather than really going for the jugular when we clearly had the upper hand. But we squndered the momentum ? a far too frequent situation with this fundamentally negative defensive manager and something some of us justifiably find totally frustrating.

Most people would have seen the CLEAR CUT chances we created right up to final whistle.

One that immediately springs to mind is when, Ossie went past two men showing wonderfully fast feet only to hit a post from a few yards out (better than any chance Newcastle created all day). I Sky plussed the game, so I could probably find a list of examples to prove it... but not sure I feel the need to, as most people saw the game.

Not sure where you googled your "Real World" from, but if it's all the same to you, I`ll stick with my "first hand, witnessed it as it happened" knowledge.

But, just as in the semi-final where Wilson claimed falsely that we did not sit back on our lead, it is obvious at the time that is exactly what we did after getting to 3 - 0 v Newcastle. We didn't "continue to carve them open" ? we sat back and gave up a brilliant own goal.

It's actually quite brilliant to adapt the KITAP1 to S3ATKIT just so you can continue to criticise.

I hope he leaves, not just because of this, but because to break up the cosy Kenwright/Moyes relationship can only be a positive. Bill has been hiding behind Moyes for too long and I reckon he's shitting himself at the thoughtof him leaving.

Kenwright will no doubt fuck up the next appointment and the house of cards will come tumbling down. Even the happy clappers might finally get their heads out of their arses.

Don't get me wrong, this may be very painful but I reckon we will have to take a few steps backwards in order to move forward. Otherwise we will be forever in limbo.

Whatever it takes to get rid of Kenwright.

We've proven beyond doubt your 'memory' is, shall we say 'unreliable' at best... 'knowledge' it certainly ain't.

So the fact that Pardew changed tactics at half time, you know, the manager of the team that took the league by suprise, the one that had they beaten us would have finnished in the champions league places had nothing whatsoever to do with them being harder to break down, infact leading to them getting a foothold in the game. I do wonder if some people realise that their are two sets of managers and that the idea is to pit your wits against each other, plotting a way to win the match!!

Football is not just a matter of sending a bunch of players out to win, its a hell of a lot more complicated than that. Thats why you find that even the best teams do not win every game. Even Barcelona were not good enough this season.

Moyes is 2nd favourite after the special one with every firm for the united job, so I am not alone. It is widely expected ferguson will have a role in picking the boss/working witewe he new boss, so it's as outlandish as you suggest.

Despite the decline Liverpool are one of the games biggest clubs. I don't like it, you don't like it, but to suggest they aren't is ridiculous.

The fact is the top sides who thrash teams go a couple up and then play with 3 or 4 that then just counter the frustrated side for more goals. Only Barca possess the side to totally dominate the play for 90 mins, and Barca we ain't.

To sky commentry along the lines of "Everton STILL looking for another goal"
Gibson missed the post by inches with one shot.

He had another screamer that the goalie couldnt hold that bounced straight out to Cahill who was ONE YARD OUT! but it hit him and to the disbelief of both it the bounced into the hands of an astonished goalie

Baines and Pienaar got behind the defence twice and only last ditch tackles saved Fellaini or Straqu netting as their goalie was beaten out of sight AGAIN

Ossie had another good chance which he hit straight down the troat of the goalie (that was besides the one that hit the post)

THIS all happened in the last 5 minutes LOL.

I`m so glad I`m not one of those people who saw SIx Everton defenders in our half when the shite pumped the ball up to Carrol.

I have little doubt others would have sky +ed the Newcastle game too, along with the countless others who will recall the incidents I mention.

So as ever I leave people to make up their own minds as to whose living in the "real world"

It's the 20 minutes I'm talking about where we didn't do what Wilson claims. And I believe it's those 20 minutes Eric was referring to that started this drivel from Wilson.

Weren't you willing us on to really batter them Toon bastards when we were in complete control of the game? I certainly was, which is why I found it 'disappointing' (as Walter Smith would say) that we sat back and tried to absorb the pressure, gifted them a soft goal, rather than pushing on for the really big win we were capable of on the day.

When the game was up, CL was gone, and the Toon players realised it, we came back into it for a final flurry. But, under Moyes, sustaining pressure against teams to keep them on the back foot is not in his coaching manual.

Rather see his minions go through a spell of good solid shapely disciplined pragmatic defensive shite to show everyone the Master of his Art at work...

Only Hibbo kinda spoilt it.

Moyes is 10/1 and now third favourite behind Martinez & AVB.

Cannot believe Levy hasn't broke the bank for Moyes, what does he know that we don't?

I have already stated that Newcastle improved in the second half and had "their period" but Everton's pursuit of further goals was relentless and it was witnessed by 40,000 people at GP and millions of TV viewers.

"When the game was up, CL was gone, and the Toon players realised it, we came back into it for a final flurry."

What like Man City did against QPR, you know trailing and not about to win the league. Oh well I knew the Geordies were chokers, only able to play for 85 mins. THere are times when you start digging and find yourself up to your neck in it. Good job that its not full of water as you would drown in it too!!

Its such an easy game ...attack versus defence....just like in the playground!

You are so right.

The playground it is then!!!!

But you're the guy ? one among millions ? who claimed we did not sit back at Wembley when one goal up against Liverpool, so you clearly aren't going to recognize that we sat back for 20 minutes in a game we otherwise had dominated... and gave up a soft own-goal in the process.

We did not 'continue' anything ? we resumed when the game was up; we were not 'relentless' ? we were pushed back for a good 20 minutes.

People think football is easy and that everyone should get battered. The simple truth is that the defensive tactics of sides has improved massively - how many do San Marino and the ilk concede now in matches?

Sides use to play with wingers and strikers that couldn't give a toss about defending, where as most sides play with one up front and the rest who work their knackers off.

"Jelavic, the guy who scored all the goals..."

Wilson-speak Alert! I give up: even smart people are succumbing to the disease!!!

Over the course of a season the Champions will be one of a small elite with the resources to last the pace. But on a one-off basis virtually all games are potentially difficult, with even the top teams having to win ugly sometimes. Given that, I'll take 3-0 at home with the opposition pushing us for 20 mins of the 90 any and every time.

In addition to post by Dean Adams 347 on the tactical battle, some of you may be interested in a piece written by Lee Carsley in today's Irish Times about a recent debacle in Gdansk. Lee is now coaching with Coventry?s youth teams.

"In football the ability to adapt is paramount. I learned an awful lot about coaching from David Moyes at Everton. David would shout ?change? from the sideline several times in a game. We?d immediately go 4-3-3. Twenty minutes later, ?change? would see us revert to 4-5-1 to stop them overrunning us in midfield. When we got a grip of that area ?change? would allow us switch to 4-4-2. We?d constantly work on this in training. David was noticing weaknesses in the opposition or reacting to their changes. He was having his battle with the other manager."

See full article here http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0616/1224318057874.html

With regards to Real World v Wilson World in 336 above. I had a look back to see if Mr Kenrick was quoting from his own report on the last segment of the Newcastle match as he argued with Dave Wilson and indeed he was. It appears that we did have the chances that Dave suggested from Gibson, Cahill, Gibson, Pienaar, Osman and Osman, as seen from the rest of the extract which was omitted from post 336.

Rest of Real World from Mr Kenrick?s own article on Toffeeweb. Seems to correspond with Wilson World and must have been omitted in error.

Krul made a double save off a great Gibsoin strike that he pushed straight at Cahill who could only return it to him rather than putting it around him into the gaping goal. Nikica Jelavic then came off to give Denis Stracqualursi a cameo that could be his last in a Blue shirt.

Everton looked at sixes and sevens at times with what passed for defensive football but still Newcastle could not score as the time ticked away on the 2011-12 season. Finally they got forward again, and Gibson struck another drive just wide. Then Baines and Pienaar created more magic down the left that was worthy of a goal but was blocked out for a corner.

Then from a throw-in, Osman almost got the fourth, smacking his shot off the foot of the post after some lovely footwork had created the space. Osman got another chance that he smacked straight at Krul

Brian - thanks, you strengthen the point not weaken it. Woy and Dimatteo had achieved less than Moyes - agree yes or no? Yet got 3 pretty big jobs.

He has been linked with the united role consistently over 10 years - Fact.

He is 2nd favourite in the running - Fact.

He probably will not get it because of Jose - opinion.

Spurs should sign him, as despite playing fine football in patches, they have not won anything of significance in 50+ years as they have had a crap defence.

Spurs are their own worst enemy in that they would rather pretty football that league championships and will never, ever change. Moyes would change that and would get them nearer than harry (who incidentally he is better than as well).

John, Dean, Ian, and Howard have nailed you with you attack v defence outlook on the game Michale lad, I wonder how many "smart people" subscribe to YOUR way of thinking?

Now I can't believe a guy who has contributed so much toward this site can have such a Naive view of the game... so I`ll put it down to the craziness that seems to come over you every time the name Moyes is mentioned.

Look on the bright side, He`ll be gone soon and you can put all your trust in uncle Bill to come up with a manager that meets with your approval.

"Cannot believe Levy hasn't broke the bank for Moyes, what does he know that we don't?"

Hope you're being sarcastic there I can understand fans of other clubs swallowing the media myth about Moyes but we've seen him first hand WEEK AFTER WEEK FOR 10 FUCKIN' YEARS.

How many years of "same old, same old" does it take?

The man is a survival merchant using the lowest common denominator from the Allardyce, Mcleish, Bruce, Mcarthy school ie safety first mind numbing cautious football.

He won't get offered the spurs job because people have eyes.

Dave Wilson (#333) expresseed amazement at fans like Eric (#317 etc) and jumped all over his comment about the second half of the Newcastle game, ending up with this simple line: "Anybody at the Newcastle game will tell you ... we continued to carve them open...." Eric's point was that we exactly did no such thing, and he was quite correct in that, for a significant period of the game, and I think we all agree on that... don't we? ? Even my 'supremely accurate' match report! We sat back in the second half and scored a goal for them, as anybody at the Newcastle game, or just watching on TV, knows perfectly well. Try to focus on that: is it real or is it Wilson-speak?

Then we get this gem from Ian: "Jelavic, who scored all the goals..." ? 3 - 1... hat-trick for Jelavic?!? WTF??? I would have remembered that, surely?

The point here is a simple one: don't make shit up that's plainly wrong. Dave Wilson seems to have made a calling of it... And now it seems Ian has joined in!

For me? A long list of complaints, yes. But in the balance, we have to count ourselves fortunate to have had him, and we still need him.

Our fundamental problem is ownership (as we know) and unless we all put our hands in our pockets there's sod all we can do about that. Given the shit situation, what would any new manager do? What could he do? Of course they'll pay Moyes £3m pa to sure up the 'house of cards'. But if it all comes tumbling down, followed by bankruptcy, hello Stockport. Well maybe not, but I don't want 'maybe'.

The thread - great, thank you - seems to be getting into arse-kicking mode so I'll be down to the local to support our favourite Polish barmaid.

"This special 20-minute period that is treated like Woodstock or something. Jelavic, the guy who scored all the goals, was subbed mid way through, and probably wanted off before hand."

Try to keep up, stay alert, and write what you think.

If you meant "since his arrival" then say "since his arrival" ? don't talk specifically about stuff that happened during that game.

LOL.

Not only did I mention the chances we created, I listed lots of them, Want me to list the rest ? Theres an awful lot of them

Listen ; I`m not always right, I`m sure if you keep plugging away you will prove me wrong somewhere down the line.

But not tonight

"Everton's pursuit of further goals was relentless" ? Wrong.

We sat back / allowed ourselves to be pushed back / stopped attacking effectively... (whatever descriptor you want, except the ones you used).

So yes, you were wrong tonight.

But I know you are not going to admit it. You never do.

The point remains: If you took Jelavic off with 10 mins plus of a match, we will score less.

http://www.oddschecker.com/football/football-specials/man-utd-specials/next-permanent-manager

Moyes is 59/10 to get it, or if you are so confident 10/59 not to get it. If you are confident that is around a 12% risk free return.

Yes, I was being sarky. There is no font to convey that though!

Agree with all you say. The proof is in the pudding ? 1 year left on his contract, Spurs want to push for CL footy, possibly contend for title even.

He isn't even being considered FFS.

Then I hear we are last on MOTD because the producer has conspired against the club as he is a red. These are the arguments being put forward by his followers.

I know what I have witnessed the last ten years: safety-first 4-5-1.

As I said, he's a well-organised safe manager. No more.

When the context of your post is the Newcastle game we're discussing and you write "Jelavic, who scored all the goals..." that's not a 'typo' ? it's a Wilson-esque Fact (ie, a lie). Jelavic didn't score all the goals, either in that game, or since his arrival, or for the entire season.

Your point was that we didn't go for it in the last 20 mins, all I have said is, if you take the main man off, it's not surprising we were less of a threat, whether he has scored 1, 2 or 3 goals.

17 attempts on goal (one every 5 minutes), despite the numerous last ditch tackles made by newcastle would prove two things beyond all reasonable doubt.

I am right

and you,are wrong.

I`m off now coz Moyes is on BCC Telling everyone he is a loyal kind of guy and wants to achieve his ambitions with Everton.

I`ll keep you posted

It's wrong; why can't you just say "I made a mistake. What I should've said was, Jelavic has been key to our improved attacking potential" or something like that? Why is that so hard???

No, you said "Jelavic, who scored all the goals..."

Just say "You're right, I was wrong; I made an obvious error; it wasn't a typo."

Or we can keep going as long as you want....

So why in the name of FUCK did you not make sure the words that appeared on this website actually conveyed what you meant? And not what you actually said, which was a complete and total lie???

"Coz it was a 'typo'"?!? Give me a fucking break!

One allows for 20 minutes of being penned back; the other.... not so much.

One represents "continuous'" and "relentless" attacking; the other... not so much.

I thought you'd agreed this was the case already, way back in the thread? Why are you argueing? Why not just say: "Michael, you're right, there was a spell when we were not continually attacking Newcastle, when we were not relentless in our quest for another goal."?

You know it's true; just say it. No-one will feel you're a lesser man for it.

If it helps, you should read the whole of my match report; even though I say it myself, I think it gives a good honest record of how the game went.

You will see, beyond all shadow of a doubt, that I am right and you are wrong about continuous and relentless attacking from Everton throughout the game.

Just like you say, everybody knows we sat back second half. It was obvious what Ian's mistake was when typing, you're the only person who thinks he really thought Jelavic scored a hat-trick.

A good post that was thought provoking. To try and be objective about Moyes these are the questions anybody should be asking themsleves. Sadly some views are so deeply entrenched that a proper debate goes out the window, from both sides of the coin.

I've been a critic and supporter and if we carry on the way we finished against Newcastle or or even just approaching games with that type of performance Moyes would always have my support.

The evidence says we won't but Moyes was talking a very different game towards the end of the season.

For the record, the second half against Newcastle was a perfect demonstration of how to maintain a lead against a good side with something to chase.

We had plenty of chances without needing to have plenty of the ball, we were carving them open at will and the whole of Goodison was loving it. The 15-20 min spell they had after half-time was always going to come. The difference between that and Wembley is we were still carrying a threat throughout.

Un-fucking-believable! Where did I ever even hint at such a thing?

This is about ONE post that YOU made.

All I'm saying: if you made a false statement in your post, just admit it instead of all this crap about making a "typo" and "I know what I meant" bullshit.

That's all. It's not that hard.

"but there was definitely a period when we sat back on our lead rather than really going for the jugular when we clearly had the upper hand. But we squndered the momentum ? a far too frequent situation with this fundamentally negative defensive manager and something some of us justifiably find totally frustrating"

This is exactly what I was talking about. How many times are we 3-0 up to have the luxury to take a break on the pitch? You could probably count them on 1 hand in the last 10 years.

But how many times have we gone 1-0 up and then stopped attacking and thrown it away? Or settled for 0-0 only to lose? I'll let Dave W check that on his Sky+ but I reckon too many to count.

And it's even more frustrating when it happens when we're 3-0 up and instead of continuing attacking we sit back. That's why I said I finally realised in that Newcastle game that Moyes is never going to change.

The unbelievable point to you is that I missed a word out in a post. Clearly, I'll need to sack my proof readers first thing Monday and would ask every toffee webber to review their sla with their proof reader or be subject to the rantings of a ....

I've done it again. Sorry.

My failing was that I missed the word recent from a post. Yours seems to be that you expect non stop attacking play with goals, when our top marks man was off the pitch, who had done his bit in the winning the game, oh and perfect word for word post. Who has the bigger issues?

Because we'd reverted to type and sat back to defend a lead perhaps?

The point is our top marksman should not have been off the pitch, we should have been pressing for another 3 goals in the second half as well.

I don't need to Sky+ anything, I was at every Everton Match last season.

What MK`s persistant attempts to prove me wrong did, was give me an excuse to again watch one of the most enjoyable matches I`ve seen in years.

Everton lead 2-0 at half time and for the first twenty minutes of the second half Newcastle as you would expect had a real go. Everton on the other hand continued their relentless pursuit of goals and countered everything Newcastle could muster. After good efforts by Jelavic and Gibbo our efforts were rewarded with a third goal after 65 minutes and Newcastle's fight back was quashed.

In the 73rd minute, a last-ditch tackle on Osman following yet another attack, allowed a long punt up the field which Hibbo somehow managed to turn the into his own net ... but here's the thing.

During the time you and Michael claimed Everton sat back (when we were 3-0 up) Newcastle didn't muster a single shot... NOT ONE.

Fact is Newcastle lost their discipline and Everton ran them ragged right up until the final whistle (see all the examples of chances I gave you)

But hey don't let facts get in the way of any ill-informed perception.

Ian ~413

A terrific and irrefutable answer, its a shame that we are forced to ram home our points, but what can you do when people obstinately refuse to accept anything that doesn't show DM in the worst possible light.

The match was over as a contest and Moyes gave Goodison an opportunity to show their appreciation of Jelavic. The substitions also gave Straqu and Cahill the chance to get involved in the carnival atmosphere.

Jelavic busts his leg and misses the euros for not bringing off when the game is won. Relationship fractured, but fans happy we beat the toon 6 - 0, descends to questions of why Moyes didn't sub him. Stubborn Moyes etc...

You do know that Newcastle, per se, didn't score against us? It took a daft Hibbo own goal to give them any kind of hope, also the fact that Howard was slightly injured didn't help the own goal too.

"S3ATKIT" - Yes please!

One look at the number of comments and you just know that the thread has degenerated into pathetic point-scoring at some point.

We used to shut the ToffeeNet list down for a couple of weeks over the summer and now I remember why...

Only joking. Christ i'm bored.

Stephen #550 "Or the more likely and plausible thing of taking players off who have earned themsleves a round of applause for the campaign they have had"

It was the last game of the season, at home, in front of our own fans. Do you think that Jelavic was not going to do a lap of the pitch with all the other players or that the fans would not show him their appreciation when he did?