I`ve seen sections of Goodison boil over in anger at Osman, I also know he is loved amongst many others, few players divide opinion like he does.

Ossie`s biggest flaw is he will often be out muscled and dispossesed at crucial moments and although 35,000 people are watching exactly the same action. Imo ( and experience ) two very different different things will be seen.

One section of the crowd will see this greedy, usless little bastard hanging on to it for too long, without having the strength to do so. "Why didnt he just put it into the fucken box"
The other will see a brave inteligent player, a guy who will look to be creative, a guy who is prepared to incur the wrath of the crowd in order to find the right pass, somebody who trust`s his ability a bit more than to just"get it in the box".
They will also see How static his team mates are.

Jack Witshire`s claim that he is an "English Iniesta" was greeted with howls of derision. I think people misunderstood Witshire, I dont think he was claiming He was a good as the Brilliant Spaniard, I think he was saying he has the same playing style.

Could Leon Osman have possibly played any worse than the "world class "players who have been selected for England ? of course he couldnt, I think Gough - for once in his life - is right.

Ossie`s a footballer in the true sense and although people laughed at the idea that he could play for Barca, he would do better than most English "superstars" at the Camp Nou . . .and I bet he would fair far better than Iniesta would playing for Everton.

Imagine Iniesta looking up to see what options Evertons crowd favourites, Neville, Cahill, Jagielka etc were offering ?

He`d be on the first flight home

Osman's always going to give the ball away or get pushed off it more than other players because he's an attacking player who is receiving the ball under pressure and trying to thread eye of the needle passes or beat a man. If you're Fellaini or Rodwell all you seem to have to do in this team is get it pass it sideways or backwards then just stand there watching as a Pienaar or Osman has to take some slow ball behind them with their back to goal, turn and slip past three defenders, before delivering a perfect ball for the one man in the box. If we had a functioning central midfield then Osman's job wouldn't be nearly as hard.

Like I've said before the same fans who supposedly want to see exciting attacking entertaining football are the same ones who hounded Arteta in his last few months here and don't appreciate Osman, the same ones who considered Pienaar a waste of money with no end product. Instead they like to salivate over the crab twins Fellaini and Rodwell and then bang on about why we're not the school of science. makes no sense.

However, if Lionel Messi had been born in England, what kind of role would he have played in the national sport?

I like 'Darren Gough' - after all we 'cricketers' should stick together!!

Reminds me, it's about time I bowled a maiden over - seems a long time since.......

He may not be everyone's cup of tea, but when you see some of the average players who have been given a go (because of who they play for), you have to wonder.......

Darren Gough was actually an apprentice professional at Barnsley and Rotherham, so I think that makes him as qualified as us to have his say.

I think Ossie could do a better job than Henderson,

We have a strong midfield within which Osman is a technically gifted player who has great control, works hard to close the opposition down and can thread a great pass. Unfortunately he has not had the opportunity to show the last skill mentioned too often as we have not often had a good striker making intelligent runs for the midfield to play him in, neither have we had any pace out wide (or infact a right midfielder at all) to make the kiler run for the balls. Sometimes he can be a bit easy to push off the ball and if he was to play out wide then he would need to be quicker but overall he makes a very positive contribution to the team. I'm glad we have him in the squad.

We have a strong midfield within which Osman is a technically gifted player who has great control, works hard to close the opposition down and can thread a great pass. Unfortunately he has not had the opportunity to show the last skill mentioned too often as we have not often had a good striker making intelligent runs for the midfield to play him in, neither have we had any pace out wide (or infact a right midfielder at all) to make the kiler run for the balls. Sometimes he can be a bit easy to push off the ball and if he was to play out wide then he would need to be quicker but overall he makes a very positive contribution to the team. I'm glad we have him in the squad.

We have a strong midfield within which Osman is a technically gifted player who has great control, works hard to close the opposition down and can thread a great pass. Unfortunately he has not had the opportunity to show the last skill mentioned too often as we have not often had a good striker making intelligent runs for the midfield to play him in, neither have we had any pace out wide (or infact a right midfielder at all) to make the kiler run for the balls. Sometimes he can be a bit easy to push off the ball and if he was to play out wide then he would need to be quicker but overall he makes a very positive contribution to the team. I'm glad we have him in the squad.

What do the likes of Milner, Henderson and Parker have exactly that makes them a class above Osman? I would pick Osman over that load of carthorses any day. Yes Osman is no Iniesta but hes a damn sight closer to being like him than the likes of Milner.

----------------------------------

Surely they both see him lose the ball. Incontrovertible.

Gerry, I couldn't agree more. I have pointed out on here before that when the great...yeah, right,... Bobby Robson was in charge of England he couldn't be arsed watching Everton, and this was the Everton who were about to become Champions that season, until we played Ipswich right on his doorstep in the December. I realise that this was some time after Ball , Kendall and Harvey but it is indicative of the way some teams get overlooked. If Osman played for the shite, Utd . Chelsea or Arsenal he'd have been considered. I'm no great Osman fan but I can see he offers more than the likes of Henderson etc.

A criticism of Capello was that he watched English players, like ours, Sunderland's etc, away, in London. So to take Baines as an example - would his role be the same against, say, Spurs at WHL as it would be at GP. I wonder how many times he saw Cashley playing at home?

and Gerry - couldn't agree more.

He is a techincally gifted player that can struggle due to having no pace, strength or shot. Sometimes I like Osman, sometimes he does my head in because he is inconsistent.

Leon Osman has a fantastic attitude, has made the most of his abilities and I am happy that he is an Everton player. As has already been said, however, he requires a couple of enforcers and nippy wide players to back him up in a five man midfield, and if he is having to fulfil any of these roles himself it just shows how threadbare our squad is.

OK - to mention Iniesta and Messi in the same sentence as Ossie might be to invite derision, but I spend a lot of time here in Spain and see a lot of them (on TV). The long ball game isn't played here, except for breakaways where someone like Ronaldo comes into his own. Every attack is against a set-up defence, two lines of four, at least. So close control and quick passing - whether there's a man on your back or not - is what will make the opening. Crosses rarely produce goals directly.

Now take away the close control and I'm describing what happens in the PL every game. Midfielders foul on the halfway line to allow their defence to set up. Sometimes they get yellow cards, but not often. Given that the task is usually to get through this barrier, this is where Ossie should be used to his best potential. And he might be a bit 'stronger' if he spent most of the game doing what he does best rather than covering the whole field.

Messi and Iniesta could do allsorts of covering, but others do the donkey work for them, and they produce the goods. That's how we should be using Ossie.

Off to see how the Germans and Italians face up to each other.

"So if there is nothing wrong with giving an opinion Steve why did you say Darren should stick to cricket?"

Well because in my opinion he knows fuck all about football, whereas him being an ex England international cricket player would give his opinions on that particular sport some gravitas.

To my mind he has been played out of position for the majority of his career and looks a player when he plays in the Beardsley role.

BTW I'm watching the Germany v Italy game and Italy's 2nd goal came from a German corner and Italy left the 2 strikers up the field. Moyes take note

You could replace them with Osman(much less mobile than either btw) and Wiltshire, or any English midfielder you like, if you play 4 midfielders strung out across the pitch it is virtially impossible for the 2 central players to het a grip on the play, offensively or defensively. Against a team ball retaining team playing 3 in there against you, your fucked. Bear in mind in the second half against italy we were playing 2 genuine wide men, and were completely strung out across the pitch. We need to play a system that thickens the mid up, 2 holding players possibly, then we will at least stand a chance of being a tight, compact ball retaining unit.

We've already had the revolution once under Venables, I thought Hoddle had us on the right lines as well. His '98 world cup side was a good side that was very unlucky to go out. We made big progress in those years, setting up and playing in the manner an international side needs to. We were tight, organised and kept the ball.

There are issues that need addressing, undoubtedly. But, DO produce the players, maybe in decreasing numbers, but the players are there to be better than this. The FA are a joke.

You could replace them with Osman(much less mobile than either btw) and Wiltshire, or any English midfielder you like, if you play 4 midfielders strung out across the pitch it is virtially impossible for the 2 central players to het a grip on the play, offensively or defensively. Against a team ball retaining team playing 3 in there against you, your fucked. Bear in mind in the second half against italy we were playing 2 genuine wide men, and were completely strung out across the pitch. We need to play a system that thickens the mid up, 2 holding players possibly, then we will at least stand a chance of being a tight, compact ball retaining unit.

We've already had the revolution once under Venables, I thought Hoddle had us on the right lines as well. His '98 world cup side was a good side that was very unlucky to go out. We made big progress in those years, setting up and playing in the manner an international side needs to. We were tight, organised and kept the ball.

There are issues that need addressing, undoubtedly. But, DO produce the players, maybe in decreasing numbers, but the players are there to be better than this. The FA are a joke.

The part I agree with was I thought hoddle had the best tactical grasp of how to play against the better nations and that team was very unlucky to go out.

Main reason I made the point was that its easy to dismiss everyone as shite when I think many of the players have been compromised by the tactics. Although its possible Hodgson went for a simple system of playing as he only had 6 weeks, I wasnt really expecting anything and was amazed we got out of the group.

England need to go with something along the lines of a 4-2-3-1, or a flexible 4-3-3 which would be 4-5-1 when we don't have it.

I thought the Parker comment would be brought up considering the distinctly average tournament he has had. Again though I thought he was compromised by the system and his shortcomings were exposed. I think he is strictly a holding player and due to playing in the 4-4-2 had to do more passing, higher up the pitch that his game allows, he cant do it. He also had to do a shitload of running as we were getting overloaded and passed around, hence the headless chicken thing. Because of the 4-4-2 Gerrard was often also too deep and he was our most creative outlet. We didnt get the best out of either player. Both Gerrard and Parker were compromised by the system. Im not saying that Parker is a top class international footballer, but in a cohesive, organised side I think he could be decent for us, certainly a good squad player.

Lets say in a 4-2-3-1, just as a holding player being allowed to do the things he does best, track, cover, read, win the ball and give simple just keep it flowing and play continuity, Parker can be a good player for England. The same kind of David Batty played for under Hoddle. And before anyone jumps on that, David Batty was a very good holding player.

Paul Ince was great for England under Venables and Hoddle. But after Keegan came in and started the 4-4-2 suicide again we were a joke in Euro 2000. One of my main memories of the game against Portugal, when we played 4 in mid with 2 wingers and were strung out and taken apart, is Ince running around like a lunatic, trying to cope with being outnumbered as the Portuguese passed us to death.

It was all wrong, much like the Italy game.

For starters, if you think he is better than Milner or Parker, you're only trying to spread hyperbole, and, quite frankly, your bias is more evident than dog's balls.

As for Henderson, he's a young, talented footballer who is, rightly or wrongly, being groomed for the future of the national side.

Why would selectors decided it's a better idea to take a 31-year-old who's rubbish for his first caps, when the tournament is almost unwinnable?

However I am not having,"Parker is a very good holding player." Scott Parker is shite, whenever there is an emphasis on him to play, and he never was a holding midfielder prior to getting relegated to that position, he has been found wanting. He did fuck all at Newcastle and utterly embarrassed himself at Chelsea. Take Modric out of Spurs and Parker is the shite player he was found out to be at Euro 2012. If he was such a good holding player, why was Gerrard permanently doing his job for England. Parker is shite, wherever he is played.

Don't rate him and I never will.

As for Osman for England, he could have done a better job than most of those tonkies who turned up.

Joe Cole (another good technically gifted player who should have been in the England Squad) said that Ossie was the most skilful player in his age group at Lilleshall. Last season Osman had the highest pass completion percentage in the final third of the pitch of any English midfielder. His strength lies as the link player off the striker as Keith and others on here have argued. Personally I think he would thrive at international level, he would get more space, the pace is slower than the Premier League and he would get more protection from referees. Another midfield player who should have received some consideration was Leon Brittain who had an excellent season at Swansea and is another player who knows how to retain the ball. At one point last season his pass completion percentage was higher than Iniesta!

Unfortunately players in this country for several years have not been picked on merit and the lack of tactical inflexibility allied to a generally negative approach has meant players like Osman and Brittain aren't considered when they should be.

How he would fit into some theoretical England set-up nobody knows.

All this rubbish about needing physical strength is bullshit. How much strength do the likes of Iniesta, Messi, Silva, Ozil, Navas, Pedro, Xavi... I could go on, have? Spain are probably one of the smallest teams in the world and arguably the best ever side in history.

I'm using him as an example of how we are compromised in mid by the tactics, how your not going to get the best of him, or anyone, in the 4-4-2 as, imo in Parkers case it forces him into things he may not be good at, as well as leaving him stretched at what he is good at. Our general shape is wrong and therefore it affects players. The 4-4-2 has affected a lot of our midfield players over the years, Scholes on the left of a 4?!?! Jaime Rednapp go threw out there as well.The Gerrard/Lampard imbalance. That issue could have been resolved with a 5 man mid. So yes, better players than Parker have suffered in the 4-4-2.

Have to say though, this blanket "he is shite" is too much. His fellow professionals thought enough of Parker to vote him in the PFA team and I don't notice anyone saying Baines is shite on here!! He has the respect of his fellow pro's. I will stand by my comment that he is a very good holding player, in the Prem..........definitely. Whenever I have seen him for Spurs he has been excellent defensively and used the ball simple. Thats his game. I dont know how he "embarrassed" himself at Chelsea that was a case of no football for me and when he was on his way to Newcastle Moyes threw in for him.

How many people on here thought Owen Hargreaves was shite? It took him about 20 caps to get to grips with international football, sometimes you need caps and time, in fact most players do. For example, Lescotts progression at international level has been slow but he has progressed. Long term I think he is touch and go to start, personally im unsure. It depends who he is going to play with as I think Terry need fucking off, I feel we need pace. But Id say he has developed into a good squad man, id trust him for cover he gives depth.

I just feel there were definitely mitigating circumstances in Parkers displays. Im not suggesting he wasn't poor. I remember thinking he was having a bad one in the Sweden or Ukraine game I cant remember which. I don't think he was fully fit, the system made playing in there frankly a bitch, there were just no options when we had the ball and because he was in the 4-4-2 he was forced into trying to do things with the ball that just aren't his game, plus he is still actually quite inexperienced at international level. It all adds up.

I think he could progress and ultimately perform if played in role,(for me he's a holding player) in a properly balanced system that gave us a chance of success, ie: one or two holding players in a 5 man mid, however that was set up. His job would be the dirty work, covering your full backs, tracking, reading, breaking play up and giving it simple. Im not saying he's Pirlo. If your an England player that looks a good tournament to have missed.

It's not just about strength, it's about balance. I'll admit, Osman has some high level skill in isolation, but has never been very good at combining the necessary traits to succeed for sustained amounts of time.

You may see him beat a couple of players, then push the ball to the 'keeper at a snail's pace. You may see him make a good pass to a team mate, but then miss the opportunity for a one-two because that stupid way he runs makes him too slow. Don't get me started on him hogging it and taking shots when someone else is in a better position.

Osman HAS NEVER shown form for a long enough amount of time to be considered a better than average player. The debate was on here a few weeks ago about his loyalty, and someone wisely advised us not to mistake loyalty with a lack of opportunities elsewhere.

Si Cooper 'the answer is no unless the balance of the team and the style of play is changed' - isn't that exactly what should be happening with the England team? This tournament has shown that a flat four with box to box midfilders like Gerrard and Parker does not work at international level. So what if Osman doesn't have any pace, neither does Pirlo or Xavi nor did Riquelme or even Zidane. Not saying Ossie is anywhere near their quality but managers have built teams around these players to protect their weakness but to emphasise their talent. Other player sin the Italian team chase the ball and make the tackles leaving Pirlo to conduct their attacking play. in England we're not prepared to do that, we have two midfield slots and if you've got no pace then who cares how good you are on the ball. I don't buy the argument that he's never played well against top class opposition. Perhaps not from the right wing but Osman was motm against Man U when we beat them 3-1 and was fantastic against Fiorentina in the middle. The midfield pairing of Fellaini and Gibson or Neville don't have any pace either so their preference in their purely reflects a desire to have big physical presences in their rather than a player who can keep the ball, and we wonder why the football is a bit bleak sometimes.

A small player is instantly disadvantaged because of the physicality of the game and therefore has to be exceptionally skilled to overcome that.

Ossie is very skillful at times and his heart and soul are true blue but he does not have the consistency to be an international.

As effective as Henderson?

People come on here whining that we dont play with enough flair, or adventure Yet they are the people who howl the loudest if it doesnt come off when somebody is brave enough to try.

Lets stick with the likes of Forrest, Cahill and Neville, etc . They may not create as many chances between them all season, but at least they dont go in for any of that risk taking lark

James Stewart, you're telling me Osman has a consistently strong shot? Let's just leave it at that, shall we?

You wrote (381), "Midfielders foul on the halfway line to allow their defence to set up. Sometimes they get yellow cards, but not often. Given that the task is usually to get through this barrier, this is where Ossie should be used to his best potential."

From this I got the impression that you expected Ossie to be the one getting us through this barrier of the the oppositions on the halfway line, which to me is playing a deeper midfield role and playing other players in behind this barrier.

From your further explanation (426) it is apparent that you would play Ossie in the same way I would (which makes the most of his strengths and compensates for his weaknesses) if you look at what I have written throughout this thread.

However, if you translate that preferred position / role to the current England set-up you are actually looking at replacing Rooney (with Ossie), not Gerrard or Parker (or any other midfielder you may choose to mention) which was the point I have been trying to make from the start. Why people have chosen to view this as an attack on one of our players, or promoting other English players I have not even mentioned, I have no idea.

Lot of mixed feelings heard about the lad but only from us blues, rival fans rate him alot higher, (noted they don't see him week in, week out).

But when Players like Carlton Palmer, Earl Barrett have gained caps down the years, not to forget Henderson, Downing getting called up for the Euro's a player of Ozzie's quality should deserve a chance before them two but it's down to the dickhead in charge and in England we always seem to have one, would he been any worse than Milner at the last tournament,no way.

Some times your face fits, other times it don't. Unfortunately for him it never has but Beckham's did a few years ago and played a full tournament with a broken foot.

Thanks a lot. I'd managed to airbrush the likes of Earl Barrett, one of the worst players ever to wear a blue shirt, and Carlton Palmer from my memory.

Keith Glazzard@522.

I think you'll find that we've had three players in an England team in the past. Newton, Labone and Ball in 1970, for instance.Tommy Wright was also in the squad. And din't we have Lineker, Steven, Stevens and Reid in 86?

England should have more than one way to play, at the minute its still 442 and a very inflexible one at that. They could easily play 433 as they have plenty of wide players with pace who could play either side of Rooney and they do have midfield players who could make up that central three, including Osman. I think he has suffered with Moyes playing him on the flanks so much which just isn't his game.

Interestingly in terms of player importance for Everton Leon Osman had the biggest impact in the squad. When he played Everton won 46% of the time, without him we only won 20% of the time. This is the biggest drop in the squad and it was the same situation the previous season.

Staggering stats John. even for those of us who rate him.

Says it all really

He has been asked to play as a utility midfielder instead of being put to his best potential use supporting the striker. Had this been his role then his preparation would - or at least should - have been different, closer to that of a sprinter. Players like Iniesta don't run for 90 minutes, and in any case their highly developed thigh muscles would knot up if they tried. Osman is required to do all the domestic work and deliver at the far end. If he was 'stronger' he couldn't run as far. Its one thing or the other.

Then there are the referees. Osman is often fouled out of possession, but because he is 'small' he isn't given the decision. Refs are prone to think this way. If he had been playing on the continent - or even in international matches - he would have had much more justice from the officials.

As I referred to previously on the Parker thing, the blanket writing off of Ossie as "shite" is just nonsense, are the constant, tiresome references to Messi, Iniesta, Xavi etc. These are players with awareness, vision, a change of pace(Xavi excluded) an ability to pick up space and other atributes that are off the scale.

Lets look a little closer to home. There is a very similar player at Everton, international footballer, who is a little above him in level.........Piennar. Both are ball players, slight in frame and not particularly quick. Both would probably like to play central however have ended up playing wide-ish midfied. Now leaving aside that they aren't fucking identical but do have certain similarities lets see where the differences lie and why, for me, Piennar is the better player and if he was English would be much more likely to get a call up than Ossie.

Unfortunately for Ossie, it is true that the physical capabilities aren't there. He is very, very one paced, dont know how much the knee injury took off him, probably a yard as it was a cruciate, but it has left him very one paced. Now players can adapt and handle that. Danny Murphy is one paced and did a fair bit of left hand under Houllier, he went on to have a very good career, playing deeper. But for me he has a range of passing and dead ball quality that Ossie doesnt have, they are different kinds of player. The lack of pace/mobility has left Ossie short of that spark when playing wide, especially right side. For me he looks more comfortable when he plays left and can play narrow and see more passing options coming inside and he can then mix up his game by occasionally go outside.

Piennar, who also looks more comfortable left than right, has a change of pace, a nippyness that just buys him a yard/half a yard to either get in a cross or get a shot off or evade a challenge. He has an inherent athleticism which Ossie either doesn't or he has been shorn of by injury. And he isn't going to acquire it at 30. I also think he Piennar just has an ability to link, retain possession better, more vision(there are stats to prove that on through balls attempted) and an ability to pick up space better. He is also more consistent however has the luxury of being played in one position more consistently. Osman is the victim of his good footballing brain, he can play all across and off the striker at a push. He is a victim of our small squads. Just to muddy the waters further, my contribution to Ossies best position, I think he would be most effective left of a midfield 3 in a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 type formation.

Im basically saying Piennars a better player!! He is a lower/mid tier international player. Which Ossie isn't. Ossie has all these qualities Ive mentioned, he just doesn't have them to a high enough standard to be an top class Premier League footballer, never mind an international footballer.

Wenger said recently there is national class, international class and world class. Ossie is national class, and a fucking good one too. There have always been players like this and always will be, loads of them. Mickey Hazzard, Garry Parker. Rob Lee. Steve Bruce. Some of them made international careers by sneaking in at the Republic (hello Ray Houghton). We run small squads and Ossie is a very important and trusted squad member at Everton. If we ever get a squad together good enough to have a dart at the top 4 he will continue to be that. He has had a very good career, never an international footballer though.

We've all seen crap Everton performances, this season just gone and going back many years. But since the Gibson Pienaar Jelavic injection we have seen our team playing very good stuff, and successfully - and Ossie has been a valuable part of that. Good players, great players even, can look very ordinary in poor teams. (The opposite, of course, can also be true). Somebody in the media picked him out to spark this thread because, in the right company, and played in the right position, he looks like the very good player he is.

Ramsay created a club England and picked, for example, Hunt and Peters because he had a vision of what they could offer England. In my view, Leon Osman for all his faults might just have been what England needed. The tendency to shoehorn similar players into the same team has blighted England for years.

Okay, let's go through the points you raised:

1) Osman started 32 games and made 2 subs appearances ? so no, he didn't play in a marked minority of games.

2) Were the games that he missed all against better teams?

Games missed.
Premier League, Away games: Arsenal, Spurs, Aston Villa, Wigan, Norwich. Home games: Blackburn, Man City, Chelsea.

Carling Cup, Home games: West Brom; no away games.

FA Cup, Home games: Tamworth & Blackpool; no away games.

So, after looking at that, I don't think you can say anything other than the statistics are what they are! I haven't got time to go through the 2010-11 season but he made 25 starts and 5 sub appearances so again he didn't play in a marked minority of games.

John's stats are pretty conclusive. The questions you ask, could and are asked of every other player but Ossie comes out as THE most influential player. If the margins were slim or it happened only once, I would agree these stats could be misleading, but the margins are enormous and it's happened in the past two seasons.

Osman has always been Moyes's "go to" man when the pack has needed reshuffling, he has suffered more than anybody for having to play here there and everywhere, but those stats are difficult to argue against.

Everton are a better team with Osman than they are without him.

Kevin (757), that is the unfortunate reality and the same is largely true for England as well, which is why it is highly improbable that the national team will be adopting the Spanish style anytime soon and giving Ossie a bell.