At last, someone with a grasp of the realities of the Premier League who doesn't think all our problems can be solved with 'attacking football' or by 'going for it'.

I think a lot depends on the teams around us rather than what we do. Liverpool will probably do similar to last season, they can't really do much worse than 7th and they're not buying anyone decent so will probably remain in and around us. Aside from pride, it is largely irrelevant if it is above or below us by a place provided Europe isn't on the line. (It would be typical that the one year 6th doesn't make it it's the year we're 6th although I guess we only have ourselves to blame for that.)

We saw how close we were to Arsenal and Tottenham last year both in the league and the head-to-head games. To some it seems natural that a bit of attacking footy or a signing here and there might bridge this gap then we'd be in the hallowed ground of top 4. This relies on Arsenal and Spurs not improving also. Spurs got their record Premier League points tally last year and didn't make it so the bar is always being raised. Arsenal and them will spend again, we probably won't. We have to hope that they not only buy sub-standard players (the only thing keeping Arsenal even in our stratosphere) but that they get injuries and bad luck. As it is it seems to be us who gets all the injuries and a lot of bad luck.

As ever, the top 4 seems so far away but just close enough to give you that slight bit of annoying hope. A cup and Europe of any sort would be a good season in my eyes. Hard to see how Martinez could improve on that as 4th place just looks out of reach.

James of course you are right, but if we are to miss out on Europe, surely it is better to do so playing football that is easy on the eye. Last season started in that vein but for a variety of reasons our attacking prowess became stunted.

If we see football that is good to watch and finish top 10 with a run in the cups we should be reasonably happy, to expect more given our financial constraints is unreasonable and I don't think many fans are expecting much more than we have done in the past few seasons,

Although some are thinking that we will implode and be at the wrong end of the table, I don't see that personally. However, RM has to be aware that an evolution of the team has to take place and not a revolution as we do have some good players who mostly do the right things as well as some players that shouldn't be near the first team.

I don't see us improving our League position in the near future. What I am hoping we will see is a change in style & belief.

Let's be honest, it was groundhog day watching us over the last few years. Yes we got results, and we were difficult to beat, but I don't want us to be 'difficult to beat' and a 'plucky Everton.' I never understood how a team full of Internationals on megabucks could be described like this in the media, did the last fella love the underdog tag too much?

It would be great to go to Anfield and play 4-3-3, just to see the looks on their faces! Gerrard and Carragher knew we had an inferiority complex whenever we played them. They knew they would come back and beat us at Wembley. We know Man U and Arsenal just had to turn up at home, it reminded me when I looked at fighters who were beat before they stepped in the ring with Tyson.

Sin Miedo football will do me!!

I think 5th is a possibility for a couple of reasons. Firstly,I feel with a new manager and a new outlook on the footballing side a few a the players may feel the shackles are off and we may hit the net more often. Secondly I've noticed and I'm sure a few of you have too that all is not well at the lane of the white hart, Gareth Bale will inevitably say he's off to sunnier climes,AVB is being heavily linked with PSG and their best CB Dawson is being linked with bigger clubs.

I know the RS have invested heavily,strangely enough not were they actually need it and Suarez will pop off to Madrid sooner or later this summer so they'll be 30 goals down.

We on the other hand don't need major surgery our defence is fairly settled,if Fellaini goes he goes a loss yes,but not the apocalypse and his money should get us 3 or 4 decent signings.

We can all fill the top 3 right now in what order I don't know,but I think it'll be Jose with the biggest grin at the end and ol ginger might just be crying into his beer.

Lets look forward with optimism and hope COYB!

The potential danger for us is about change. Much has been stated about a more 'attractive' playing style. That change however has the potential to be disruptive especially in the short term.

One of our strengths has been continuity and that has generally created consistent results but if you suddenly ask players to start doing significantly different things you may well get some problems.

Now don't get me wrong: I'm not advocating not trying to do something different, the former approach had reached the limits of where it could take us. But don't underestimate the difficulty in creating a new style of play and how that could impact results.

But RM may surprise us all yet and play 4-5-1

......'moderate crowd base'! We have a moderate 'fan base' maybe in that we have been left behind over the Sky period in picking up the casual shirt-buying supporter. But the majority of these types have no intention of actually going to a game more than once a year if at all. If you want to judge the crowd potential of a club, look at its away support. And you won't find many with a larger following than Everton. We have a large crowd base. And if only the club were to get with it and properly and professionally promote the club then we'd also develop the fan base. Of course, winning something might also come in handy.........

I'm with you, Jim and James.
I think (believe)??, that the first 5 places or so are already taken. Yes, the usual suspects.
What do I expect from Roberto this season? I hope we have a terrific run in one of the domestic cups, and possibly even win one of them (would obviously prefer the FA Cup).
Regarding the league, I'll be delighted if we match sixth, but cant see it, and I wont whinge at Roberto if we don't make it.
My feeling is we will finish somewhere around eighth, and I wont grumble at that especially, as I say, if we have a tremendous roller coaster ride in the cups.
I'm hoping to get to Goodison more times this season than I did last ( I saw us knocked out the FA Cup by an unfancied team from Rugby World, but where is their manager now) ?
Disappeared into obscurity as so many of them do.

James - our problems will most definitely not be solved just by playing attacking football. But I cannot believe it is the correct tactic to employ just a lone striker when we are playing teams that are well below us in the league.

I do not expect us to go gung ho attacking at Old Trafford etc - however if we had got to the FA Cup Final this year - and it had been us against Man City - I reckon Moyes would have "parked the bus" and tried to catch them on the counter attack. Wigan attacked them and got what they deserved.

I recall one game in Sept 2011, v Wigan at Goodison, when David Moyes started without a recognised striker - he preferred to play Cahill out of position rather than start with either strikers that were on the bench - Strac' and Velios.

No attacking football isn't the answer to everything - but neither is "parking the bus" at Old Trafford, The Emirates, Stamford Bridge etc.And I am fed up going into Derby games with our Manager "bigging up" the opposition. For several seasons we have had players who could cause Liverpool problems - but our manager has chosen to adopt " inferiority complex" tactices.This is something Moyes will have to overcome at Old Trafford - he needs to be bold. Our new manager will it seems at least have a go. I would rather that than adopt the lone striker and pack the midfield approach that we have become accustomed to.

I agree Jim,probably 6/7th maybe a place better at most.
Tell you one thing though,if it is 6/7th we will have a lot more enjoyment from the style we will play to get there.

I don't understanding the moaning about one striker...it's as if some people havent watched much football since the 90s. Spain generally use one striker, and sometimes no strikers, and they are the most successful national team...in history? Most major clubs now play 4-2-3-1 formations, the same formation we generally played last season. What has held us back is personnel..and it will continue to hold us back. Arsenal look like they will add this season, and in view of the depth of their squad, and their impressive form in the last few months of the season, I think top four will be out of reach. Spurs and Liverpool will outspend us...although I think we can compete with both of them. I believe we will fight for 5th to 7th, and hopefully be in the picture for one of the cups. It's annoying to limit our ambitions so...but it's an objective reality. We are constrained by the purse strings.

7th with a new style of play and some great performances. Realistically we should aim for 20 wins that would be a fantastic season 14 at home and 6 away

Jim, you mention all the advantages of the moneyed teams, but none of the disadvantages.

If it was all about money, QPR, wouldn't have been relegated, nor would we have finished ahead of the RS or a few other teams who'd spent more than us.

Man City would have finished top of the league, with chelsea second and Utd a distant third. We'd have beaten wigan easily in the FA Cup tie at goodison and promptly lost to city.

Of course its not all about the money. With money comes large squads, disharmony, egos, pressure for the team and manager, pressure to break the 19 less well off clubs down in each and every game. The instability wreaked by a new manager(or two) each season is very significant.

Then of course, there is the law of diminishing returns. Is a £10M striker one fifth the player of Ladyboy? Of course not. Are we better off as a club which spends less, but where the manager has vetted and chosen the players we sign, or would we be better off spending twice as much, but with the players bought by a "technical director" and the manager having to make do with them?

We will always have the potential to compete, if we do well and other, richer teams succum to the many downsides of being rich. Of course if they all play to their potential we have no hope because their squads are stronger, but as we showed once, the top 4 and entry to the champions league is not just a dream, precisely because teams don't always play to their potential.

Infact I'd say that this season is our best chance for a long time to compete for the top 4. I think there is a very good chance Moyes will fail at Utd. He has a dressing room to win or lose and has cleared out the experienced and successful coaching staff at Utd and replaced them with coaches who've won nothing.

Pellegrini is an unknown quantity in the premier league, and will be under pressure to get immediate results. Mourinho should win the league quite easily, but there is always an outside chance he'll fall out with abramovich again.

Then there are our friends the RS who are under immense pressure to get back into the top 4 and they'll be without their best player for all or part of next season and their squad has many poor players.

For us Martinez is not going to be under vast pressure and he will inherit a very good - if small - squad. If he can take that squad and add a little motivation, pace and quality then we're in with a real chance of upsetting the apple cart.

I would be happy with top 8, plenty of goals and a long run in one of the cups.

There may be some painful days and more than likely we will lose more often than we have in the last few years but that's the nature of transition.

Of the teams below us I can see Southhampton maybe being a threat as Pochettino seems a good manager and it looks like they maybe making some astute signings this summer with Cortese's sizeable cheque book.

Come on Wayne, top 4?
It really doesnt matter who these "big 4" or "big 6are", do you really think we will finish above them?
I really don't think it matters who we bring in, the others will bring in just as good, or better players than we will have, but, nevertheless, I live in hope, and I want all of us to thoroughly enjoy next season.
Good for you for thinking the way you are, and best to all our fans, I just think we will have done well to finish no lower than around eighth !!

I agree Sam, I can see Soton possibly getting Top 8 this season.

I can see West Brom struggling without Lukaku, Swansea, not sure really, Europa League might knock the winds out of their sails.

We are a top 6 team for sure, I cannot see the RS finishing above us without Sewer Rat.

They have bought a load of players I have never heard of before, and to sign some Aspas bloke to potentially replace Suarez, is like signing Zamora to replace Messi.

Agree with John, lets just enjoy next season!

Dont think we'll be concered with relegation, we can forget top 4, so I reacon we can relax and attempt to play some good football.

Should be very interesting/exciting times, just hope that RM can get some early points on the board, then hes not under pressure for starters!

Of course it's not always about money because, if it was, we would have won a lot more in the 60s and 70s considering we were the richest club. I would give my right arm to see Everton win the Premier League, but it would help to have that strength in depth, which has critically cost us over the years.

It could go either way next season, but I do believe we have a very strong first eleven who can more than hold their own. It all depends on who we bring in: McManaman first for me and a good goalkeeper for starters. I think Martinez could do well, I just hope all our supporters get behind him and the club.

Wayne...sorry man, your post is foolish. Who won the Bundesliga last season? The team that spent the most. Top two in Spain? In France? The top four in England? money wins leagues. What has QPR got to do with anything? Arsenal are not QPR...they are already better than us, with a settled squad, and a sensible way of doing things. If they are willing to spend the £70million rumoured...if they are willing to buy Higuain... it is most certainly bad news for us.

When did I say it was all about the money? Did my representation of us being able to compete with Spurs and Liverpool although they will outspend us imply that? I think you might want to try reading posts before replying to them.

There is more to football than money... but... the most money buys the best players, and the best players come top four, and win trophies. On a day when further speculation regarding Arsenal's bid for one of the finest finishers in world football surfaces...we are linked with a former Celtic winger, who many don't fancy, and many think we cant cough up for the speculated four million four.

And by my reckoning... this will be the toughest top four in ages. If you think Man United or City will slip out... you are barking. Chelski, will be nearer to a title next season than this, and Arsenal will be better too.

I don't think anyone can argue that Martinez doesn't know how to get his teams to play good football. But he doesn't ever seem to be able to keep his teams in or around the top half of the table. I mean we want to push on from 6th position and that only means up.

Of course we have better players than Wigan and Swansea and suppose we have to give him a chance, but I've got this bad feeling that next season might bring us around a 10th place position an not 5th or 4th. So how many of you would be happy with a 10th place but playing free flowing beautiful football??

I suppose if we were to win some silverware in FA or and League Cup well a 10th place would be acceptable. Because cups brings Europe. Then a 10th or there about place, would I guess be acceptable. But we will see. Who knows maybe he will surprise us all, and lets hope he does.

I'll be expecting a couple of seasons of mid-table, hopefully top ten, finishes. Then, hopefully, Martinez will be able to show that he can do even better than Moyes has done. Just so long as he doesn't prove to be a latter-day Mike Walker!

Dennis Stevens.

Middle table and you happy with that? I can't for the life of me see why the blues shouldn't push on from were Moyse left off. I can't see us introducing too many new faces to the present squad, so why would the team of last year suddenly drop to mid-table? That's the problem when new managers come in, they switch and change so much that before you know it you can't recognise the team.

Jack, I'm guessing because of the well structured points laid out by Jim.

The problem is every team above us is likely to significantly improve their squad. Even if Moyes makes an arse of himself and plays the same way at utd as he did at Everton they will finish in the top 3! Arsenal have run it close a couple of times but show they have the quality at the end of each season. Chelsea will be stronger. City have a squad so strong that Mark Hughes could win the title with them!The only team above us currently that looks as if they could be susceptible is Spurs, and they will spend whether Bale leaves or not. I know I have just repeated myself in the OP!

I cant see us dropping much below 7th, after Liverpool the rest were behind by some distance. Its pushing to the next level that I cant see happening.

Wayne Smyth. I agree with everything you state mate. Well said. Nice to hear someone being positive for a change. We know the players are up for that extra push, I just hope the manager is. I just hope he don't change things to drastically this season. Because I think we are definitely up for 4th place. Lets be truthful we should have made that position last term. we through it away but that was down to no one but us. If Jelly is on song and I feel he will be that will make all the difference. Goals get points it's as simple as that. We know our defence is second to no one. Yes, I don't see why we can't make 4th.

4th was ours to lose last season and from Jan on that is what we proceeded to do.

A small, in relative terms, amount of cash spent then and we 'may' have kicked on.

Was there no cash because, well there IS no cash, or did Moyes and / or boys pen billy think that given the fact he was due do a runner, decide that in all conscience ( I know that that word is more often applied to one more than the other, but it could happen ) he couldn't blow the wad for the next guy.

Then we have the 15 draws, they weren't down to money that was attitude, bad play and plain bad luck.

Nothing much will change, the top 3 might swop around a bit but there are 3 new managers there. So just like Martinez until the season is well under way ( late Oct ) no pattern can emerge.

Like I said it was ours to lose, we've 3 squad members to replace and they will, unless we are very unlucky be better than Mucha, Neville and Hitz.

1, 2 or even 3 'could' go for a big money total, I hope Fellaini is the one and only.

1 or 2 from the 'reserves' might be given a chance to be the ' It's like signing a new player ' player.

If all Martinez gets them partying like it's 2012 and just tweaks it from playing not to lose to playing to win

Jelavic, sans Fellaini and too much running the channels might even find his shooting boots and that WOULD be like signing a new player, half the Fellaini money saved at a stroke.

Until Hallow'een all bets are off and re-assess then.

I won big money on last season when I correctly piled on a 6th place finish. Have to confess, I had `a spoiler` on 7th but not enough to make a real dent in my winnings.

This time, I am going heavy on 7th as fear RS will go all out to restore their pride and will certainly outspend us in that cause.

Not at all a Roberto fan and if McGeady is typical of who he intends to sign, my money's down the shithole already!

I think we can expect to finish in the top 10, and that's about it.

New manager, probably not much to shout about with new players, Fellaini gone and possibly Baines as well will leave us really short.

We have no money to buy new players so will end up with people like Alcaraz for nothing.

As for this so called 'sin miedo' football that people keep talking about as the only thing they really want - look where it got Wigan.

As someone else said above, the thing that wins you things these days is money. Plain & simple. You pay the cash, you win the league. You pay peanuts you get monkey's.

All this talk of people like Negredo is rubbish, when was the last time Everton actually signed someone who was a well known name? I don't remember one at all, apart from Drenthe and Van der Meyde and we all know what happened with those two.

How many of us had heard of Fellaini or Mirallas until they were signed? Exactly.

Good article except I strongly disagree about The Shite having a stronger squad than us, I think only a couple of their squad are better than any players we have, it's their weakest squad in a long long time.

Not sure about RM but am willing to give him a chance and it will probably take him time to get things as he wants them. It's hard to see there not being some sort of lowering of standards during this transition and I would be happy if we finish no lower than 9th or 10th playing good football and looking as if we can progress.

John(012) - I didn't say I think we will finish in the top 4; I merely stated that we could, if things go our way. Exactly the same as happened to us not too long ago.

If you read Jim Harrisons post you'd think it was all doom & gloom and we've got no chance. What I was pointing out is that au contraire, we do have a chance. First step is to actually believe we have a chance, second step is to work hard to maximise that chance, third step is to hope that lady luck smiles upon us.

Jim(037) - Firstly, I wasn't responding to you. Apologies, but I didn't see your post slightly above mine, otherwise I'd have been a bit more specific. I was responding to Jim Harrison, the thread starter.

Secondly, my post isn't foolish, or wrong. When we finished in the top 4, did we do that because we'd spent the 4th highest in the league? No.

You contradict yourself in your very own post.

You say

"money wins leagues"

and then say

"When did I say it was all about the money?"

Money DOESNT win leagues. But it bloody helps. There is a rough correlation between spend and league placings, but it is only an approximation.

As I was pointing out, there are significant disadvantages to having a rich power-crazed owner who demands success and gets rid of managers on a whim, or teams with large squads of demotivated players. Sometimes those disadvantages come into play to make a rich team finish below a poorer one; something that happens every single season.

To be honest, "fans" who decide their team has got no fucking chance of winning a football game after comparing the balance sheets of the opposing squad make me despair. How they were ever conceived is beyond me. I'm surprised their sperm didn't just shrivel up and die on the spot; after all what's the point in attempting to compete when the chance of winning is so low?

Who knows where we'll finish this season. Might do well, might not, but lets not convince ourselves that we're on a hiding to nothing nearly 2 months before a ball is kicked.

I admire your optimism if you think we can finish in the top 4 this season!

I hope your right mind you, but I think If you go to the bookies you'll find you will get rather big odds on it happening.

Baines is a key player for us, do you really think hes going to be here?

More money, champions league, bigger stage!
Hes got a very big decision to make.

New manager that is going to need some time to settle in, its very likely he will tinker around with the team for starters.

I think Martinez will be a great manager that will develop the club from the kids upwards given time, which hes going to need.

I'm not pessimistic for the future, quite the opposite, but I think you have to be realistic in the short term.

Top 8 in his first season will be a decent finish for me.

Raymond, I think Baines will be here. I think he's happy at the club and in the area and is unlikely to angle for a move, unlike Fellaini.

Don't get me wrong regarding our likely league finish, I think if Martinez tries to use our younger players(duffy/barkley/etc) 7th or 8th is probably where we will finish. If he can make a couple of quality signings, we have a real chance of doing better.

I basically don't buy the basic premise of the original article that because the teams around and above us are likely to spend more than us(again), that our life will necessarily be more difficult and the best we can hope for is 5th or 6th. I think some of the richer teams are going through transitional phases and usually one or two of the richer teams end up struggling. SAF going shakes up the established order quite considerably, I think.

Moyes is a big unknown quantity managing with the pressure he'll be under. Pellegrini is new to our league, Arsenal can be quite inconsistent and spurs may lose a player who has carried them through so many games last season. I think we have nothing to fear from the RS. Chelsea are the standout team in the league, and I don't see any team getting near them, assuming Abramovich sticks with Mourinho.

If we look at last season, we failed to finish higher largely because of points dropped against lesser teams(reading, norwich, fulham etc), not because we couldn't beat chelsea at their place. That is a mental issue. Its a confidence consistency and motivational issue. It has nothing to do with resources.

I think Martinez is a more positive coach, but it remains to be seen if he can inspire and motivate our team better than Moyes. We'll find out whether trying to finish teams off is more worthwhile than focusing on defending a 1 goal lead. It doesn't take a lot of change to jump us a few places higher(or lower) and I think a 4th place finish is more achievable than many believe.

Wayne, I totally agree with you, 15 draws last season – turn 5 to 6 of them into wins and that's an extra 10-12 points and a higher league position. We had the players to compete but a small squad, and with Moyes unwilling to try to go for a win in some of those draws and persistently using his favourite players whether they where playing well or not (usually not) and negative tactics... well, we are all aware of the outcome.

Yes, money does help but it's no guarantee, just look at QPR. So what I expect is a more positive approach and some good cup runs... and, who knows, we just might find those elusive extra points and make Europe. Myself, I cannot wait for the season to start.

So onward and upwards – and a very good hello to all my fellow Evertonians. :)

All good points Wayne, you could be correct about Baines, seems the sort of lad that wont want a lot of upheaval & grief, but I think Moyes will want him at Utd.
Could be worse I suppose, because he will command a big fee if he does go.

The problem early on, is that Martinez is nothing like Moyes as a manager, so how are we going to approach the games, will he try to use Moyes tactics, or change our game to how he wants us to play? Who knows.
I think its going to be confusing for the established players early on so the chances are that the results may suffer.

I get what your saying about the other teams being disrupted as well, which is true, so it may cancel out each others slow start! Lets hope so.

Fingers crossed for some luck and good results early on, it could make all the difference between a good season and a bad one.

Wayne, the point isn't just that the teams above will spend more money, its that they will spend more money on squads that are already better than ours. The only team that we are close to are Spurs, and they were 9 points ahead. It's obviously not all about the money, otherwise Everton would probably be finishing in about 8th or 9th every season, but it makes a massive difference if you have it. QPR had a shite team and bought expensive mercenaries to try and improve it, clearly this approach didn't work, but paying £7 odd million for Loic Remy isn't the same a spending £25 million on Robin Van Persie!

I am not trying to project a negative outcome, just trying to be realistic. When the season starts I will fully behind the team just as I am every season, going into every game hoping for a win.

BUT.......being objective and looking without the bias of a supporter I believe it will be very difficult to advance beyond what we achieved this past season as I believe that the chances of more than one of the teams above us slipping up is unlikely. As I said, hope springs eternal.....

I think Jim raises a good point about buying players - QPR are the prime example of buying players simply because they can. It backfired spectacularly.

Everton are very very wary when signing players, and always go for characters as much as footballing ability. Something QPR quite clearly did not do.

Signing a player is so much more than what they can do on the pitch, so all the people talking about signing players like Loic Remy should look a little harder at the human element attached to a signing and take a more balanced view.

It's all very well having ability, but if you're an absolute pain in the arse, it's going to be massively detrimental to the team and club as a whole. We can expect a fair amount of 'dithering' from the new manager in the same way Moyes was seen to do (personally I just think he was very cautious and rightly so with so little money available) and not to expect a flurry of transfer activity at all this summer.

We might end up with a couple of loans, and maybe one signing but really that'll be about it. Even if we sell Fellaini, don't be surprised if we don't spend the full amount back on players. It's just not realistic at Everton.

The other big differnence though between us and QPR is they have Harry as their manager and we had Moyes.

So the money doesn't explain everything.

No, but the signings do go some way to explaining it. In my humble opinion.

It's not easy to forecast where we'll finish, as we haven's who Martinez is going to bring in. But I don't think we've a hope in hell of finishing in the top 4, without a number of glaring weaknesses being resolved.

I would think that finishing 6th would be a great achievement but I don't see us finishing that high. I'd hope that Martinez develops the kind of football, I'd like to see us play and a good cup run would do nicely. But until we can spend in something like the amounts of the top 4, Spurs and Liverpool, I don't see us breaking regularly into that group.

The 4th place in last seasons Premier League was wide open hence Arsenal players relief when they made it on the last day.If you look back at the games we blew throughout the campaign games against lower sides like Reading ,Norwich.Fulham,Villa etc you could say out of the 15 draws and however many losses we could of should of had at least another 12pts.The Newcastle game at Goodison Park was more evidence of points thrown away.The one contributing factor to these capitulations was David Moyes and his stubborn insistence on defending leads and having no killer instinct.

Everton have as good a starting 11 as most sides in the league yet we always wanted to act the little guy role under Moyes.Knives to Gun fight
ethos being rife.If RM can get this team playing like we all know it can do and with some much needed pace added you just never know what we can achieve. Two or three players out three or four players in and we might just take a shot at that 4th place finish.As for the Red Shite they will lose the most important player they have have and 30 goals a season wiped away with the lose of Ken Dodd to Real Madrid.My money is on RM being the real deal once he gets drawn in to the passion and the spirit of EFC..

Tony Marsh is positive? Must be an omen.

Well not sure if any of you know but Baines is a good mate of Rooney's and if the paper talk is right about Rooney's possible move to Arsenal then I think Baines could follow him there and not go to Man u. They would have some team then especially with the players they have already or are bringing in. Baines says he's looking forward to playing Martinez style football well, Arsenal are the masters at that style of play. And Artteta his old team mate is already in place.

You could be right Jack. I can see Utd being due a rebuilding season very shortly. They may not be the force they were as a result, and that's before you take away the Fergie factor.

Arsenal would suit Baines a lot better in terms of the style of play and the chance of winning something. The guy has too much class and not a big enough ego to go to Chelsea or City.

Kieran. Yes I quite agree with you. The Fergie factor could play a big part in were Man u finish. I mean can you see Moyes changing his defensive play? Surely that's inbred in him, caution first even at a club with Man Utd players. Then there's Moyes's trainer tactics, run till you drop. I remember Distin saying he had to have a nap every day after training because of Moyes methods. I know this all sounds ridiculous but remember how much of an impact the Tevez saga had at City. And I feel there could be similar black days ahead for Moyes.

I might be wrong but is that right that Drenthe as been bought by Reading? As anyone any idea?

Can't really see Arsenal laying out the bread for Baines, considering Gibbs is already a very very good LB, think there are plenty of positions Wenger will be looking at, don't see left back as one of them