Everton lead stats for shots and chances

, 5 October, 75comments  |  Jump to most recent
As if more proof were needed of Everton's maturation to a more dynamic and attacking style of play this season, the statistics show that the Blues have produced the most shots of any team in Europe so far and only the Manchester sides have picked up more points since January.

Excerpts from EPL Index:

With 124 shots, no team in Europe's Top 5 leagues has attempted more shots this season. Edging out Real Madrid by six shots, Everton also lead the shots per game category.

The current creativity statistics are testament to Everton's fluent and progressive style. Leighton Baines now leads the way in the Premier League with the most chances (28) and the best minutes: chance ratio (19.29). Despite his defensive duties, Baines is ahead of the Premier League's and some of the world's finest players. The statistics also reinforce Baines' defensive capabilities with the left back yet to lose a tackle this season.

Forward Nikica Jelavic also features in the Top 40 of the creative players list. Creating nine chances, the Croatian is proving there is more to his game than goals. With Leon Osman narrowly outside the Top 50 and others hitting form, Everton players may fill more creative places in the near future.

Quotes or other material sourced from EPL Index



Reader Comments (75)

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Thomas Lennon
1 Posted 05/10/2012 at 10:39:59
Stats show we are not where we are through luck - people are starting to notice the new Everton!
Barry Granton
2 Posted 05/10/2012 at 10:54:47
Thomas, that's the best article I've ever read....

Rob Teo
4 Posted 05/10/2012 at 15:08:08
Wow - just wow! Long may it continue!
Mike Gaynes
5 Posted 05/10/2012 at 15:41:04
Grinning ear to ear....
Clarence Yurcan
6 Posted 05/10/2012 at 15:40:01
Simply amazing, especially after the dour, uncreative, defensive-minded teams of the past few seasons.
Mike Gaynes
7 Posted 05/10/2012 at 15:41:25
See, I was just about to predict that we'd seen the last of the word "dour" on this board... and Clarence stepped up.
Sam Hoare
8 Posted 05/10/2012 at 15:46:47
Clarence, are you Peter Barry in disguise?

Good stats though we have had some easy games Man U aside.

Philip Quilliam
9 Posted 05/10/2012 at 15:43:09
Good grief could it be that we are better than we think or, possibly, ever thought we could be. Long may this amazing transformation continue. More shots than Real Madrid? I feel like I've gone back 25 years.
Brendan McLaughlin
10 Posted 05/10/2012 at 15:55:55
Surely there must be some silverware associated with this?
Steve King
11 Posted 05/10/2012 at 16:06:36
and yet our dour defending means we only have a goal difference of +6!!

I can't believe the players aren't tracking back more!

Moyes out!!!

Steve King
12 Posted 05/10/2012 at 16:08:42
Sorry I apologize for overdoing the sarcasm.

Great to hear these stats. Long may it continue!

Peter Barry
13 Posted 05/10/2012 at 16:10:10
No he isn't Sam Hoare # 118 but I agree with what he says. But as long as Davey does not revert to type I will be happy.
Peter Barry
14 Posted 05/10/2012 at 16:12:31
Mike Gaynes # 116 No one would be more happy than me if I never have to use the words dour, dire, defensive and tactically inept with regards to an Everton performance again.
John Ford
15 Posted 05/10/2012 at 16:25:54
We have better attacking players now, just as importantly they're in good form. Well pleased with this though.

Ian Bennett
16 Posted 05/10/2012 at 16:21:26
No one would be happier than me.... And Peter Barry in the same sentence. Crickey the end of the world as we know it. Come on MOB give us a song.
Brendan McLaughlin
17 Posted 05/10/2012 at 16:23:17
Peter #127
I think there might be quite a few much "more happy" than you.....if we never have to hear those words trotted out again!
Danny Jones
18 Posted 05/10/2012 at 16:27:19
Music to my... erm ...... eyes.
Julian Batti
19 Posted 05/10/2012 at 16:54:02
It would be better if this information had been kept classified. Let them go on poopooing us.
Peter Thistle
20 Posted 05/10/2012 at 16:54:53
It's a pity that nobody other than us blues will know about these stats, they won't be doing a piece on sky sports news about it for example. We'll quietly keep hoping this season is the best we've had in years while the other money teams get all the coverage.

COYB !

Nick Entwistle
21 Posted 05/10/2012 at 16:58:00
Hmm, praising stats, and the partial smugness on the 'shift in Merseyside' post, is a slippery slope to a sense of entitlement. We've only continued where we left off last season, for once, but that is all.

When our players start to suck their thumbs after scoring goals or arms outstretched in a 'well, what else did you expect me to do' way like Van Persie then its time worry.

Oooooh most shots on goal! Probably because other than Utd we've played cack teams. Nothing scary in our fixtures to date. Sure you can only play what's in front of you but we've got only two points more than West Brom... so what does our great start mean that theirs does not?

Ian Bennett
22 Posted 05/10/2012 at 17:16:23
2nd Nick.
Thomas Lennon
23 Posted 05/10/2012 at 17:23:59
Nick keeping our feet on the ground - fair enough. But we have played 3 teams currently in the top 10 and 3 in the bottom 10 so its not as if we have only played smaller teams. Most seasons I can remember when we have a team to beat a team like ManU we struggled against teams we should beat who 'Park the bus', not much sign of that happening either. Goals coming from the right side has been pretty unusual too.

The team of 85-87 scored from all departments of the team and because of this were unstoppable most of the time. This is the first team I can remember since those days who have been doing the same (possible exception of Joe Royle's team) - this speaks of confidence throughout the team.

We have been scoring at nearly 3 a game and new players have settled in very quickly with more to come. Shame we were prevented from buying the young central midfielder from Belgium, hopefully he will be here once we enter the New Year.

All this with two of our 'key' players out for several games when we would usually have dipped in form in the past.

In terms of football this is everything the 'moaners' have wanted for years, this is a vast improvement rather than a misleading 'false dawn'.

Now... beat Liverpool and we will all agree things are going somewhere.

Phil Roberts
24 Posted 05/10/2012 at 17:51:09
I was away for the Swansea match so have just watched it. Crikey, I think Vic is after a job with a US Police department — talk about shoot on sight! Mirallas is also another who is not frightened to have a go as soon as he sees the whites of the posts.

All very exciting — and I hope it continues tomorrow.

Peter Barry
25 Posted 05/10/2012 at 17:54:45
Just a little information here in most of Asia we get our sport on the cable channels courtesy of SKY/STAR. This weekend they have nine live matches. Guess which is the only one they don't have. Yep Wigan/Everton. So to SKY WBA/QPR is a more important match than Everton's. After all we are only second in the Prem with a chance of going top if results go our way. So how could that possibly top such riveting games as Swansea/Reading Southampton/Fulham or QPR/WBA hey. It just shows what SKY think of Everton.
Peter Barry
26 Posted 05/10/2012 at 18:03:31
Brendan McLaughlin # 131 the solution to that is in Davey Moyes hands not mine.
Brent Stephens
27 Posted 05/10/2012 at 18:11:00
Okay if you really believe stats... but they can tell you anything you want — do you really believe we're only "edging out" Real Madrid?! We're better than that!

Peter Barry, where in Asia do you live?

Barry Rathbone
28 Posted 05/10/2012 at 18:11:48
Ian 130,

Remember the old Buddy Holly song, That'll Be The Day

Here's a mob rendition:

"Well, that'll be the day, when you see the light
Yes, that'll be the day, when you know we're right
You say that only teams who are loaded can try
well that'll be the day when I die"

Absolutely brilliant — thank you and goodnight.

Karl Masters
29 Posted 05/10/2012 at 18:24:34
Tony Marsh and all the other Moyes bashers won't like this!

Of course, you can prove anything with statistics, but it's been a very impressive start, although a start is all it is. When Moyes pointed that out and told everybody to stay grounded last week he was accused of having the mindset of a 'Perennial Loser' by the Editor of this site....which maybe said more about Mr Kenrick than Mr Moyes.

Some people are never going to be happy and as some have already said on this thread, once you reach the top the only way is down again, so perhaps we should all enjoy the current situation and see what happens next.

Peter Lee
30 Posted 05/10/2012 at 19:17:46
Nothing to do with this thread but too good not to share.

BBC radio 4 pm news show tonight:

"Roger McGough, who was born in Liverpool, went to school in Liverpool, even married in Liverpool and the football club he supports is, of course ...... Everton."

There you go then, real Liverpudlians are Evertonians, it must be true the BBC said so.

Ian Bennett
31 Posted 05/10/2012 at 19:27:54
Barry - you can't go out like that. Encore, encore.
Clarence Yurcan
32 Posted 05/10/2012 at 19:31:33
Mike, Sam, I think the use of the word "dour" has increased greatly in my vocabulary since becoming a TW reader, you just can't escape it!
Andy Crooks
33 Posted 05/10/2012 at 19:42:37
Are there really users of this site who think that any Evertonian, no matter how they have criticized Moyes, is secretly disappointed that we are playing really well? A welcome touch of realism from Nick Entwistle. There is a big difference in enjoying the moment and hubris.
Barry Rathbone
34 Posted 05/10/2012 at 19:43:06
Ian, here you go, "Born Too Late" by the Poni Tails — well known Moysettes singing to the Mob (just for balance, mate):

"Born to Hate, You just can't help it
Talking shite you just don't know it
Why oh why? Why we're you born to hate"

Deffo done now!

Ian Bennett
35 Posted 05/10/2012 at 20:00:14
Andy - I think some will.

I don't mind admitting that I wanted Everton to lose games so that Walter would go, and I don't mind saying I wanted Moyes to replace him. I think Moyes passed up opportunities at City and Southampton around that time. Anyway, my point is once you have reached a tipping point, I don't think you will come back.

Mike Gaynes
36 Posted 05/10/2012 at 20:13:34
Clarence, that just comes from breathing the brimstone that emanates from so much of the commentary here. You have to learn to hold your breath so as not to be contaminated.
Karl Masters
37 Posted 05/10/2012 at 20:10:47
Andy Crooks. Whilst it seems incomprehensible to most sane, evenly tempered people that a supporter may not enjoy seeing his team to well as opposed to struggling, you have to say that there are people who come on here only when we are doing badly.

They disappear when the team is doing well, and when they do post it is often a post with extreme views, such as calling Moyes a coward and always seems to follow a bad performance.

Obviously only they know the answer to your question, but to the casual observer these people of seemingly extreme views and emotions only seem to light up in the eyes and have fire in their bellies when they are criticising the team.

Personally, I think you are either born a pessimist or an optimist and it's the natural pessimists who I am referring to.

Michael Kenrick
38 Posted 05/10/2012 at 20:22:52
Since my name has been raised (thank you, Karl), I'll respond with some on my thoughts on the familiar side-issues being raised, especially this belief that there are people on here who are secretly disappointed we are playing really well. I think it's both ridiculous and insulting to suggest that would be the response of any Evertonian to our current run of form, but it's sadly par for the course from those individuals who see it as their duty to impose feelings and reactions on others, instead of just sticking to what they know — which is how they feel themselves.

We are playing some great attacking football, and for me there is no doubt that Moyes takes credit for enabling the team to do that. It does feel like the shackles have been removed, and that was always the puzzling thing for me: why have your team playing in shackles in the first place?

But the sad facts are that Moyes has shown himself to be a coward in the past, and that he is a perennial loser — in over 10 years, he has won nothing (technically, that's not correct, but his acolytes seem to forget the massive MLS All-Stars Cup...).

Are we in the process of seeing that unenviable record change now? I'd love to believe we are; certainly something has changed... but that quote someone on the Live Forum found at the BBC soon after the Southampton victory last weekend really felt to me like a right kick in the balls, straight from Moyes himself:

"The first thing is to avoid relegation and then the next thing is to see if we can get a Euro spot. For me that is the way it is always going to be - that's not me talking it down." — The abject negativity of that statement suggests fundamentally nothing has really changed.

Lyndon replaced the story that contained this quote with another one from, of all places, the official Everton website, and it did not include that quote, giving the impression that Moyes had not actually said these words. But there were enough places carrying the story with that exact quote — and substantially different wording from the new story — to indicate that it was probably a separate utterance, albeit on the same theme. But for me, no matter how you want to spin the context, those words above confirm that, whatever might have changed on the field, it is not Moyes's fundamental loser mentality.

Yes, he has the team playing some great attacking football at the minute; my summary of each match accurately reflects the value and quality of the current football, where you will see recently a lot more words like 'brilliant', 'superb', 'excellent' in relation to some of the football we have been playing. Long may it continue.

The game is fundamentally about scoring goals, about winning, and securing maximum points. People will react when we don't score, when we lose, or when we drop points; that is entirely natural and part of the purpose for having these discussion forums is to have people share their feeling and reactions. So I don't really appreciate this snidey elitism that attempts to set different values on the comment of others. We don't all think the same: let's please respect that and not trivialise it.

Mike Green
39 Posted 05/10/2012 at 21:35:52
The thing is, on our upturn in form, the "Anti-Moyes Brigade" will say 'Told you he could do it!!!!!!', the "Apologists" will say 'Told you he could do it!!!!"

Lets enjoy the moment knowing, finally, we were all right for once.

Nick Entwistle
40 Posted 05/10/2012 at 21:37:10
Moyes won the league 2 title with Preston, which is now League 1. Division three in old money.

Of course the managers who have won the league cup or FA cup with an unfashionable side would rank way below Moyes in ability, but they're 'winners' so... so what point is it you're making Michael?

Moyes is a loser, unlike say Souness, McLiesh, McClaren? All pale into insignificance against FA Cup winner Redknapp though, as he also has an Intertoto win on his CV!

If we picked up a domestic trophy under Moyes, I don't think it wouldplace him in higher esteem from either his supporters or critics, but it is used as a stick to beat him with.

David Barks
41 Posted 05/10/2012 at 21:42:42
Michael,

The problem with your thinking is that you're basically quoting the ridiculous Will Ferrell character Ricky Bobby (Talladega Nights) "If you aint first, you're last". That's basically what you are saying when say Moyes " is a perennial loser — in over 10 years, he has won nothing". So he doesn't finish first, therefore he's a loser. So finishing 4th against all odds, that was still losing. Reaching the FA Cup Final but not finishing on top, loser. There is a middle ground, which is sort of what I got from Karl's opinion. It's always extreme one way or another. Moyes is great or as you say in your opinion "a perennial loser". Most people don't subscribe to the belief that if "you aint first, you're last", that's why the Ricky Bobby character was such an idiot. It's far too simplistic.

Ian Bennett
42 Posted 05/10/2012 at 21:33:07
I can understand the word coward. Going to away games and hoping for a narrow defeat, defensive substitutions, bottling it in big games. Playing a ridiculous line up at west ham. I am a Moyes fan, but even I pull my hair out.

He is a naturally defensive manager, although you win more games if you can keep the back door closed. He did have relative success with 4-5-1, in which tim Cahill prospered. He has had a piss poor squad over the last 4 years, undermined by us not signing a player of any meaning for an age. The squad aged together.

Thankfully he has renewed the squad with loose change and a new belief. Let's see what the season brings.

Philip Quilliam
44 Posted 05/10/2012 at 22:44:52
Michael #181As a matter of interest Arsene Wegner won nothing for 7 years 4 months with Arsenal - perennial loser? Harry Redknapp won FA cup with Portsmouth 2008 - winner? I suspect such a black and white opinion on success and failure is over simplistic.
John Crawley
45 Posted 05/10/2012 at 22:54:05
Have to agree 100% with Michael on this. Moyes has shown himself to be a coward and a loser when it has come to the all important crunch games. I think it is very hard to put up a logical argument that refutes this. The best example I can give is the first away leg in the semi final of the league cup at Chelsea. We had equalised and Chelsea then got a man sent off. Instead of going for the win and displaying a killer instinct we sat back content to take the draw. The result we conceded a late goal and Chelsea won the first leg 2-1. Nothing that I have seen from Moyes since that game has convinced me that he has changed. Like any person he has the capacity to change his approach and mindset. I hope he does but we will only know that when we next play a crucially important game like a semi final and or final. In the meantime I am enjoying the attacking football that we are playing. I think it perverse to think that there are Evertonians that aren't enjoying the football that we are playing.
Lyndon Lloyd
46 Posted 05/10/2012 at 22:44:50
Lyndon replaced the story that contained this quote with another one from, of all places, the official Everton website, and it did not include that quote, giving the impression that Moyes had not actually said these words.

Further research shows that Moyes did say those words and was quoted as such on the BBC website. I confess that at the time, and in light of the subsequent comments on the Official Site, I thought that the (obscure) website cited by Michael in the news item had misquoted him.

My issue with the news item, though, was the way in which Michael handled Moyes's comments, using them to beat him with the negativity stick when the news items are supposed to reflect some attempt to hew towards to the neutral. There were enough people in the subsequent comments who took umbrage to it, myself included, and there were calls to balance the article with what appeared to be the full quote (as it appeared on evertonfc.com).

In the wake of another good win that put us second, that news item as originally posted only served to feed those detractors of ToffeeWeb who accuse this site of never missing an opportunity to put the boot in.

Brendan McLaughlin
47 Posted 05/10/2012 at 23:04:20
John #200
Whats an "important crunch" game? In the league, are there games we get more than 3 points from? In cups..the semi's & finals?..even though if you don't win the earlier "non-crunch" matches..you're not gonna be involved in the the "real" crunch matches later on?
John Crawley
48 Posted 05/10/2012 at 23:03:53
One other thing which I forgot to put in my earlier post. The statistic which is the most amazing to me is the one concerning Leighton Baines. If you haven't clicked on the link to the EPL index please do it and look at it. The top 15 creative players in the Premier League is led by Everton's left back, the incredible Leighton Baines. Now that is an amazing statistic! He creates a chance every 19 minutes ahead of Santi Carzola (who everyone is raving about), David Silva and Gareth Bale. His sidekick Steven Pienaar is at number 11 in the list. Making Everton's left side officially the best in the Premiership!!
Robin Cannon
49 Posted 05/10/2012 at 23:09:41
I think David (187) hits the nail on the head. There seems to be a particularly absolutist attitude from the (for want of a better moniker) the "anti-Moyes" brigade. It devalues his success over the last ten years by labeling him simply as a "loser" because we don't have a piece of silverware to show; instead having achieved the less glamorous success of consistently solid league placings.

While I certainly have been frustrated by the overly conservative attitude of Moyes many times, I actually think it's always been heavily influenced by the players at his disposal. It's *not* like he's suddenly had some massive change of philosophy and decided to change his whole approach. Rather than being inherently conservative, I think that Moyes is inherently simply a pragmatist.

There have actual been numerous occasions in the past ten years when, for intermittent periods, we've played good, attacking, passing football. That's usually when the players to do so have been available. Similarly, there's also been lots of periods when we've played turgid, defensive football; again generally when the players have lent themselves to that approach.

I think all things being equal Moyes will probably lean to a slightly more conservative approach than not, but not to the exaggerated extent to which he is often accused.

Ian Bennett
50 Posted 05/10/2012 at 23:12:01
Lyndon - you absolutely made the right call.

Frankly, Moyes is right to play it down, in the same way he was right to tell the players that they usually blow it against teams like Southampton in the past. I raise a glass to keeping it low key, down the pecking order on match of the day, being the 6th favourite for a top 4 finish. Keep on go about our business, keep the chat to a minimum and keep banking the 3 points. You win nothing with kids pundits know fuck all, so why worry.

John Crawley
51 Posted 05/10/2012 at 23:14:13
Seriously Brendan as a football fan you shouldn't need me to tell you what a crunch game is. They are ultimately the games that define your season and your career. Moyes hasn't won anything in 10 years and he's done it with a negative, defensive first mindset. I hope he's changed but we won't know until it comes down to the crunch :-)
Brendan McLaughlin
52 Posted 05/10/2012 at 23:22:56
Robin
The most sensible post I've read on TW for a long, long time.
Peter Laing
53 Posted 05/10/2012 at 23:30:56
Wins at home and away against Liverpool this season to me will prove to be the acid test, Moyes needs to get this particular monkey off his back, if he can conquer the apparent psychological flaw that haunted him against the shite last season, instill a winning means all mentality into the side, and concede not a blade of grass against any opposition - everything should be possible.
Brendan McLaughlin
54 Posted 05/10/2012 at 23:28:23
Seriously John #207
As a "football fan" I'm asking & you ain't answering. Which are the "crunch games" in this year's Premier League fixtures? In the cups which are the crunch games (as a football fan you shouldn't need me to tell you but, unlike you, I will if you can't work it out for yourself) . Go on... enlighten me.
John Ford
55 Posted 05/10/2012 at 23:43:29
Selectively picking quotes ...putting the boot in,.....that's exactly what it was.

Spot on robin

Andy Crooks
56 Posted 06/10/2012 at 00:53:45
Robin, David Moyes will not be judged years from now on solid league placings. Like it or not, a League cup win this year would have been remembered long after a series of admirable, credible but ultimately uninspiring 7th places. The league cup isn't shite because Liverpool win it.

If David Moyes were to retire tomorrow he would be forgotten in fifty years. Harry Reknapp won't. In my view Moyes is a superior coach but silverware is what counts.

Philip Quilliam
57 Posted 06/10/2012 at 08:28:36
I get the point "if he was to retire tomorrow" but Harry Redknapp has had 15 or 16 more years in the job than DM. Plus to be fair 'Arry is a much more media friendly being that DM. I wonder how many people remember Alan Ashman FA cup winning manager (Everton fans bloody well should do).
Eric Myles
58 Posted 06/10/2012 at 09:04:11
Peter #144, Asia is a big continent.

I live in Asia and I get to see every Everton game live, even the midweek games that kick off at 2 am locally.

Derek Thomas
59 Posted 06/10/2012 at 08:54:07
Mike Green #185 there is 'some' element of truth in your premise that both factions will say...' told you he could do it '.

But 'we' ( MOB, my perspective there of; wouldn't presume to speak for everybody ) were saying things like...if we have the best squad for 20yrs, WHY ffs won't he just let them play. Why go into games with this knife to a gunfight bollocks, play to try to win instead of seemingly trying not to lose. KITAP1 and doing neither.

I for one didn't as a none negotiatable deal breaker want Moyes to Go, just to change emphasis... which he has seemed to do...and yes I know that some ( the ' Apologists' ? ) will say once he got a bit of cash he did.

The rebuttal to that is, prior to 2012..HE DIDN'T TRY.

And our beef with the so called Apologistas was that too many of them were trying put a mediocrity cherry on a mid table glass of shite and wanted to kid me that it was a chocolate sundae....8th or whatever IS NOT the new 1st.

And am I pleased at where we are and how we are playing?? 'Kin right. If we can get past the window without losing any one and maybe get a couple in it is in our ( and Moyeses ) hands to cock it up

My pick...3rd


Ian Bennett
60 Posted 06/10/2012 at 09:22:19
This not winning the trophy thing is clearly causing issues to undermine any 'success' that Moyes has. Again in my opinion Moyes hasn't tried in the league cup, which means our only trophy opportunity is the fa cup or nothing.

Michael, can we have the poll on what fans care about more please. If the choice was between qualifying in the champions league 3 times or winning the league cup 3 times most would go for the former I have no doubt about that given the finances. I suspect the majority would also go for champions league this season over a league cup, which would vindicate to some extent Moyes taking the piss at Leeds. Personally, I wanted the cup this season.

Martin Mason
61 Posted 06/10/2012 at 09:33:59
It's pathetic really given all of that money we've spent.
Steve Jones
62 Posted 06/10/2012 at 09:17:02
"Harry Reknapp won't. In my view Moyes is a superior coach but silverware is what counts."

Sorry but this is perfect illustration of the problem I think we have in football now. Fans looking for the results and not the route to them...its a reflection on the way society has gone, fame and glory built on nothing, so it shouldnt be any surprise.

Harry Redknapp achieved nothing by lifting that cup with Pompey and if he's remembered for it it will be with derision and scorn....and rightly so....nothing you want branded on an Everton manager.

The act of winning silverware is meant to be an indicator of the quality of your side. You win trophies as a byproduct of building a quality side - its not a mission in itself. You don't overstretch ridiculously to snatch at a piece of silverware heedless of whatever comes next. You have a squad built to a peak of balance and quality so that you keep winning the games regardless of league or cup....and do it the next season....and the one after that. That makes you a top side...not a one-off oddity.

Look across the park for any proof you like...they were annointed with 'greatness' for their run in the late 70's early 80's...not for that last Euro cup and certainly last years silverware hasnt saved them from general mockery.

Winning silverware one season wont make Moyes any more of an accomplished manager than he is now...winning silverware two or three seasons on the trot will.

Ian Bennett
63 Posted 06/10/2012 at 09:43:19
A knife to a gun figh, mediocre cherry. Derek the simple fact was that squad was mediocre. If you are toothless upfront (Saha, yakubu, vic, straq, beck ford), lack pace in the side (mirallas for cahill) and lose your creativity (arteta never really recovered), all you are going to do is defend and KITAP1.

We had a good squad that got undermined by injuries and lack of decent replacements. Lescott and jags were a good pairing, arteta and Cahill were a good pairing, and Saha/yakubu. However, these all got injured, faded away or sold.

Philip Quilliam
64 Posted 06/10/2012 at 09:51:44
Martin is this sarcasm? Difficult to be accurate, as not all the figures are provable, but over the last 10 years we are about 10th in "spending in total" league and about 14th in net spend per season at around £560,000per season compare to Chelsea at about £52,000,000 per season.
Peter Lee
65 Posted 06/10/2012 at 09:27:36
"Loser"

"Doesn't try"

"Coward"

When the Football League started there were two things to win each season of significance. It stayed that way until the advent of European football and the League Cup. Currently, the the largest number of tophies anyone can compete for is 4. 5 if you count the Charity Shield, 6 with the European Super Cup and 7 if we count the World Club "Have-some-time-off-in-the-middle-of-the-year,-screw-your-domestic-competitions-and-make-a-lot of-money-whilst-increasing-your-exposure-in-the-gowing-and-lucrative-Asian-markets" Cup.

How many managers have their been since the beginning?

How many won things?

All those who didn't are, by the definition touted freely on here, "losers".

On the other hand all of those who have achieved success, in any competition under any circumstances are "Winners".

Really? Look back at the people who managed teams to League Cup or FA Cup victories. Are they all "Winners"?

How long do you go without winning before you are dubbed a loser?

Last season's European Cup Final.

An interfering chairman desperate for a win, a manager who needed to, to have any hope of keeping his job. A team was sent out to play in a way that gave them the best chance of winning. It involved massive defense but they won.

Hail a new winner. - who didn't try.

Why on earth do people on this site accuse any manager of "not trying" when winning is what gives any of us connected with football in any way the buzz.

"No mate, it gives me a buzz but it obviously means nothing to that dour defensive miserable sod who has worked his entire life in football!" I hear you say.

I have always said to mates who moan about their jobs,

"Why have you done it for the past 20 years then?"

Because they're masochists? No, they just like a moan now and again. Moyes must be credited as having that same desire to win as the rest of us, why do it otherwise, particularly in the face of the abuse that he often gets.

And as for "Coward", get a sense of perspective for heaven's sake.

I played with cowards. They were those who pulled out of 50/50s, who didn't turn up against hairy-arsed monsters, who stood with their cuffs pulled over the wrists and their backs to the wind and rain. Well, the last one is a bit much.

Cowardice is the opposite of bravery. I can't see that football management calls for bravery since this implies positive actions in the face of personal jeopardy. Losing to Liverpool? Yes, I don't like it but picking a team and tactics to play them isn't about courage or otherwise.

It is about judging risk and likely outcomes/rewards.

It's called playing the percentages. That's what games are about, Get it?

With regard to complaints about Moyes comments, what do these people want?

Since the beginning of this season all of the managers of teams who have definitely got expectations of being in the mix have played down their prospects.

We would be mad to have expectations of winning the league. But we are not mad to have hope and the more we win the more we shift the balance from hope to expectation.

That being so, what is wrong with "Lets get 40 points, then 50 puts us in the mix for top six and then if we get 60 with games to go, who knows."

Nick Entwistle
66 Posted 06/10/2012 at 10:12:05
Philip, its not sarcasm, its called laying the bait. If you didn't read the other thread, fair enough.

Derek, whoever has said 8th is the new first? But the league is not a straight fight anymore. Fortunately the top four is more open this season than it has been for 10 years, which meant a 4th and two 5ths was very good. You might not like it, but don't dismiss circumstances dictating what those without funding in the PL can achieve in the league.

As for the best squad in 20 years, well its Moyes best squad since he arrived (would be a problem if it wasn't. Arsene and Ferguson are seeing how that's an issue) and there was nothing in the ten previous that would come close. The bench mark isn't great to begin with.

Ken Crowther
67 Posted 06/10/2012 at 10:20:06
Peter Lee #286

What a disjointed post!

I'm sure that you know what you mean; but you lost me after the first inch-and-a-half (three centimetres for the modernists).

Fortunately I managed to cling on right to the end; and your final paragraph was spot on.

Should have started at the end.!

Brent Stephens
68 Posted 06/10/2012 at 10:46:08
Peter Lee #286. I read all of your post, followed it all, and pretty much agreed with it all.
Ken Crowther
69 Posted 06/10/2012 at 10:58:00
I bow to the superior intellect of Brent Stephens #292
Ken Crowther
70 Posted 06/10/2012 at 10:59:24
Ps.

That was an attempt at irony.

Brent Stephens
71 Posted 06/10/2012 at 11:02:20
Ken, I wasn't having a go at you, just giving a bit of support to Peter. Always possible, in fact, that I didn't really understand it!
John Crawley
72 Posted 06/10/2012 at 11:08:13
Brendan nice of you to put a coherent logical argument against the point I was making. I don't have the power of predicting the future so I can't tell in advance when any crunch games are going to come and what they will be. I can however have a look back at those games, off the top of my head they would be the semi final in the league cup against Chelsea, Fiorentina away, Chelsea in the cup final, Liverpool in the fa cup semi final. I think this quote from Kevin Garside sums it up for me: "The big occasion defines and separates. In both semi and final Moyes revealed a defensive reflex that ultimately proved Everton's undoing. Not only did they fail, they failed to inspire in defeat." As I said earlier I hope he has changed his approach but we won't know until the time comes.
Derek Thomas
73 Posted 06/10/2012 at 10:37:37
Moyes maybe could have tried but didn't that was the problem.

Nobody mentioned you personally Nick, it was just the impression I got from some of the, for want of a better discription... the be careful what you wish for, don't rock the boat, remember how bad it was under Walter, if Moyes goes it = automatic relegation, it's the result not the performance ( without on some ocassions getting either ) best of the rest, etc etc

But I think you knew that. Just giving you the pov from this once and maybe future MOB-er

But in the end it's only stats, we're sucking our selves into a none arguement

Brendan McLaughlin
74 Posted 06/10/2012 at 11:25:38
OK John #302
I'm nothing if not a man of my word and so (and without using my ability to see into the future) every game with something at stake is a "crunch" game & Moyes wins more than he loses.
Nick Entwistle
75 Posted 06/10/2012 at 11:18:39
Derek, interesting points...

'Rocking the boat' argument is more about throwing away all the good and potential brought to the club by Moyes (from the views of his supporters), rather than endangering the stability which is the most the MOB deem worthy of praising.

For Pro-Moyes it is nonsense to have him ousted as rarely do chairman fire managers doing well and trade-up with their next. The only ones I can think of are Micky Adams leaving Fulham for Kevin Keegan to take over, and City booting Hughes for Mancini.

Should Kenwright tomorrow say Moyes is out, Hiddink/ Mourinho is in would still be an unnecessary gamble.

Karl Masters
76 Posted 06/10/2012 at 12:40:57
Robin Cannon's view that Moyes is a pragmatist first and foremost is spot on in my view.

Michael is free to say and think what he likes of course, but the opening gambit of that article last Saturday ( hastily withdrawn by Lyndon as sanity prevailed ) showed Toffeeweb up in a really poor light considering the season we have been having. That's a shame as it's an outstanding website.

Michael also says there have been a lot more positive editorial comments this season, which is true, although you would be amazed if that wasn't the case really. That's what makes the ' Perennial Loser ' comment even more off the radar for me. I like Toffeeweb, but there have been times I have logged in, read a load of negativity and just logged off again as it was too depressing and would ruin my mood for the day. And that's why you really do wonder if some people are happier moaning than doing anything else.

Just my view, not wanting to brainwash or tell people how to think.

Ken Crowther
77 Posted 06/10/2012 at 13:24:48
Brent #292 & #298

Are you a trainee WUM?

Who are you trying to be? Martin Mason?


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