Elstone: No pressure to sell stars

What are Moyes's pinch points?

He wants more money? Doubt it...

Wants to go to a 'bigger club'? Well Chelsea, Spurs & Newcastle nor the Shite came knocking. Arsenal & Man Utd ain't changing. And Man City are unlikely to trust Moyes.

Bigger budget? Well the club can't give him what they don't have.

So what does Moyes want that he can realistically get?

Not one person thought to ask Elstone?

So there you have it – a dissenting voice is a hijacker and if meetings aren't 'positive' we ban them.

Personally I'm not interested in a single word him or his cronies have to say.

Elstone imo could talk for an hour without saying a word.

A grinning bullshit and spin merchant (like his boss).

I'm sure that's bullshit but it would surely be what Elstone would repeat if asked.

How are Newcastle bigger than us? I very much doubt Moyes would join the Magpies even if there was a manager vacancy.

What I'm trying to get to is, what does Moyes want in order to sign?

And did anyone ask Elstone? After all, Moyes is arguably our biggest asset and he's 6 months away from leaving for nowt.

Shame they never got to sit down with Trevor Birch during his 6 week stay.

Like Eugene, I take the words of the CEO with a huge grain of salt – not that I think ill of him, I just think he's caught up in an impossible situation due to the terms the Board impose.

When I read "There's been virtually no increase in debt", I think back to the "virtually free stadium" we were promised with DK. You know that our finances are still in a mess.

Well, Bob alludes to the new TV deal. He's right that the overseas deal is virtually done. As usual it's on "willingness to pay" by certain countries, so whilst the likes of Singapore (population 5.4M) sees an increase in what they pay (they have 2 cable providers competing), China again is paying "virtually nothing", as it's citizens simply won't pay to watch football. The Premier League trumpet this as "expanding the reach of the game".

With the contracts for overseas and domestic now running in-step, it does mean from next season we can expect to earn around £23-25M extra per annum.

If the club uses this windfall sensibly, they might have a club that is sellable in 2-3 years. If, as I suspect, the bulk of this finds its way into players and agents pockets, we're still treading water – possibly worse, as other clubs in a better state than us may use it to improve the squad.

Robert has helpfully pointed out that the attendances cost £3.5M if we sold out every single game, and £1.5M year over year. The TV pot went down from £49.6M to £48.9M from the official Premier League figures, so despite his claims I can't see that we lost out that much here — particularly if you add in the cup run that must have been worth £1M plus.

I don't have an issue in selling players as long as the proceeds are spent back on the pitch or reduce the debt to restore us to some sort of break-even business in the future. I can't help but think the cash is going somewhere else. Look forward to seeing the accounts which is rather sad for a football fan but is a sign of the times.

This wasn't an interview, it was a promo for the club and the board.

What really pisses me off, is that the Liverpool Echo have ran with this story, playing second fiddle to Blue Kipper in the investigative journalism stakes FFS!

The days of being banned from the club for making any probing enquiries are still well and truly with us.

How the fuck can any AGM be positive if you are losing millions?

Other Operating Costs?

Gobshite.

The complete failure of the club to explain the "other operating costs" and the totally ridiculous comments about the AGM being negative and hijacked do him no good.

However I guess he is just doing what he is told to do....

We are often highly quizzical and highly critical about the way the club is run, which is mostly good and has some bad points. I'm actually genuinely curious though; the "Other Operating Costs" has been widely criticized as demonstrative of incompetence or even outright deception, but is it noticeable exceptional in terms of accounting for similar businesses?

On Elstone in general – he's often criticized for his interviews being "a promo for the club" or similar. I'm not sure what people expect him to do, other than publicly put a positive spin on things. He's still an employee. In general I think he's far more communicative with the fan base than most other chief executives, even if we might not always like or agree with his comments.

"I'm not sure what people expect him to do, other than publicly put a positive spin on things. He's still an employee. In general I think he's far more communicative with the fan base than most other chief executives, even if we might not always like or agree with his comments".

Well he could try... the truth.

Let's face it, his smile, speak-but-say-nothing trick clearly isn't working.

Oh sure, it placates the likes of Bluekipper, but as long as John Bailey or Snodin ('Bails and Snods') turn up to one of their weekly events, they're happy.

The fact is though, in the last few seasons, our attendance is down to about 33,000 from around 37,000. Just a thought but it could be that spin is indirectly costing the club.

You say he could tell the truth, isn't he? Or is the Eugene Ruane/Colin Wainwright truth different to everybody else's.

Just a thought!

"No pressure to sell" trumpets the headline and most fans grazing on their cereal transmute the piece as:

"Everton in rude health, all staff secured full steam ahead next stop Champions League – Happy Xmas."

Depressing.

Yet you believe Elstone. Whatever the CEO says must be true. Mustn't it?

Give yourself a fuckin' shake man.

"You say he could tell the truth, isn't he? Or is the Eugene Ruane/Colin Wainwright truth different to everybody else's. Just a thought!"

Fine Stephen, have it your way, I'm full of shite, Elstone doesn't lie.

You know what, I barely give a fuck anymore.

In fact there's part of me that thinks the gullible dupes who support BK and Elstone are getting exactly what they deserve – an Everton FC run by BK and Elstone.

Figure that out and stay fashionable.

Plus, maybe the vast majority fans aren't actually 'gullible dupes who support BK and Elstone' but rather Everton fans who support the team.

The AGM was the only reason the interview was arranged. Unfortunate that ownership is transparently at odds with Club supporters.

I'm not one for the word irony, since it's used wrongly so often. But it must apply to EFC, as everyone's 2nd favorite club became so through lousy ownership.

And when asked does their chairman not know where 30% of the money spent by the club goes?

And does their CEO give figures that don't add up?

I don't understand why some fans expected us to have paid down debt. In tha last accounts we lost £5 million after selling off Bellefield for £9 million, so without the sale of the asset we would have lost £14 million.

So to break even we have to sell £14 million in assets in the season, so that's where £13 million of player sales has gone. But, given the fall in attendances, increased costs etc we are lucky if we can maintain the same debt level and have probably increased it.

But they'd better start winning again soon or the devotion of the faithful may be tested...

Elstone's rhetoric is Orwellian at best. "Under no pressure to sell" doesn't mean they won't sell.

There’s a lot of old tricks employed by Everton in recent years, answering not the question being asked but the one they prefer to answer is such a favourite and a perfect example of this is explaining that our other operating costs are comparable with such and such a team or that percentage wise they’re similar to this team or that team, in other words "Move along, nothing to see here, look, look, we’re going to buy a new player and yes we’ve undertaken an in-depth survey on one specific stadium site" ... “Where’s that site, Robert?” “Gosh, is that the time? I don’t want to keep you from plagiarising something”

Let’s be clear, why people have suspicions centres around four things:

(1) The doubling of the other operating costs in a single year: 2007 £11m, 2008 £22m — the explanation given at the time, it was attributed to Finch Farm, and the host of subsequent explanations... 85p in the £, it’s now risen to 86p,

(2) It’s because of expensive medical equipment required at Finch Farm; or

(2) It’s because of lawnmowers, when they began to get really desperate.

Then we arrive at the fourth reason, I’ll only state one, the most provable one, because I’ll be here all day and miss the match. They’ve misled the fans and shareholders before, the aforementioned £52m from Tesco which turned out to be nothing.

I wouldn’t rush to label people liars when in fact you’re often just not listening to what is actually being said; look at these three statements and pick out which isn't true:

(a) “We’re receiving £52m from Tesco”

(b) “We’re receiving £52m from Tesco towards the cost of the stadium”

(c) “We need a stadium deal of the type that offers the value we were receiving at Kirkby”

Two of those statements are true, the other is a lie; it’s not appropriate to call people liars because you haven’t listened and the idea that everything is black and white when it comes to explanations is naive; there’s a lot of grey out there!

Many are suspicious of the explanations about the other operating costs simply because they do not stand up to even the simplest of scrutiny; this 85p in the pound, now 86p, it’s an unbelievable amount of money something which people talking about football and its millions all too easily forget. Taking out the wages, we’re talking about £160,000 a week to run what is essentially a building in a big field. We’ve heard that we have specialist coaches and conditioning coaches, aren’t these on the books then? Because, if they are, they’re included in the wages figure.

We’ve heard that we spent a lot of money on medical equipment, specialist equipment and lawnmowers... fine; did we lease them or buy them? It doesn’t really matter because either way it would show up in the accounts as an increase in capital expenditure or an increase in the reported lease arrangements; it doesn’t.

So you begin to understand why the shareholders are attempting to hold a general meeting at which the board are required to answer these questions and others like how come we’ve got the kit supply deal for Accrington Stanley instead of one that resembles the millions all other Premier League teams are enjoying? — Even Wigan get a million a year for Christ's sake!

What everyone wants to see is the manager given the funds so he can compete. I understand we’re about to eclipse our most barren period, in terms of trophies, in the club's history whilst across the park in the period our board has been “supporting” the manager they’ve won eleven trophies whilst we've won nothing; that just hurts.

We all want what’s best for the club, it just appears that some actually believe that this is the best we can do; sad really.

This is similar to the oft-repeated criticism of the Kenwright statement about money being 'ring-fenced' for the Kings Dock. I remember being quite clear at the time that he meant money raised for the Kings Dock stadium was quite separate from money for the team squad. It has since been spun many many times to sound like he had the money available and after the stadium deal collapsed it would be available to spend on players, but that it was money later withdrawn. Not so!

So no, many of us are not following the club line or the line spun by KEIOC because we are thick or lazy or disinterested, we are just looking at what are probably two extreme viewpoints and making our own minds up.

Oh and by the way, I for one will never accept Everton can't do better. Moyes has worked miracles but the club could have done so much more over the last 40 years — particularly the last 20 — but if you look at the accounts in detail (as I know you do) there are signs of steady growth and impressive improvement where it can be achieved.

Much like everyone else, I am aghast at the failure — finally seemingly admitted to by the CEO — of the Park End development. Embarrassing but not really more or less than our neighbours failing with their stadium too. I suspect Everton did not involve themselves sufficiently with the project and allowed our partners to proceed unchecked.

Regarding the Park End fiasco, it was nothing to do with our partners proceeding unchecked, the problem lay with the board not having control over the land that they had promised our partners they could use due to having a secured loan against it.

Thomas, WE were never going to profit from anything to do with Kirby. The major shareholders would've done, though.

- I agree with the "ring-fenced" money re Kings Waterfront. Many fans fail to understand that investors put money into specific projects with a projected return etc. Therefore if investors had put up £35m for Kings Waterfront, it was only for that project and once Everton lost Preferred Bidder status, that money wasn't simply there to throw at the squad.

The only minor snag was the £35m was never put up. They got nowhere near that amount (which by the "final" project proposal was costed had risen to nearer £65m).

Whilst Matt has subsequently highlighted the truth that the cross-subsidy, from a project officially described by the City Council Planning Committee as a con, didn’t physically exist; Thomas Lennon’s initial attempt to play down, what Everton did, with a degree of nonchalance is astounding, “Tesco was never going to give us that money but we profited by that amount from the project.”

I wonder who this “we “were, or are for that matter, because it certainly wasn’t the football club, the fans or the ordinary shareholders. Nor was this anything approaching a commonly held belief, that Tesco’s money didn’t actually exist, it was the belief of just a small number of people who challenged this outrageous lie; a belief that brought upon them legal threats, vilification from so called fellow blues and treatment from the club which continues today, including deliberate exclusion from events and threats to organisations if certain privileges are extended to them.

I should find it astonishing that Thomas has the sheer brass neck to suggest what he’s posted, I should, but sadly I don’t; he’s far from alone in knowingly or unknowingly peddling the propaganda of the club’s owners and those who have sold their soul due to the high salaries they earn from them.

Why the vast majority believed that Everton were getting £52m from Tesco is simple and understandable; it’s what they were being constantly being told by the club officials and a media who were endlessly receiving press releases informing the journalists that wrote the stories that informed a public which of course included all those Evertonians who voted yes in the Kirkby ballot.

Just take a look at this small selection of stories in the press, they’re all telling their readers that Tesco were giving Everton a £52m subsidy which, added to Everton’s own £78m contribution, made up the alleged £130m cost:

Liverpool Echo - http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/04/22/new-everton-fc-stadium-the-true-cost-100252-20798911/

The Guardian - http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jan/21/everton-goodison-kirkby-inquiry

The Guardian - http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2007/aug/25/newsstory.everton

The FT - http://www.scribd.com/doc/116299830/New-Stadium-Becomes-the-Top-Goal-for-Everton-FT

The final piece from the FT is perhaps the most comprehensively damning and like the rest is contemporaneous with the campaign to mislead not just Evertonians and the press but the Government Inquiry; but not as damning as the many official documents submitted to the inquiry including that of Everton’s expert witness Chris Potts who on page 24 of this document: http://www.scribd.com/doc/116320261/TEV-P9 stated,

“The proposals show a new stadium with an estimated cost at £130m (excluding inflation). The subsidy from the commercial development is £52m, which requires the Club to finance £78m. A funding approach is in place for achieving this, including a combination of naming rights, disposal of assets and debt finance as explained by Mr Elstone. The Board of Directors, and their advisors, consider this level of finance to be sustainable. Consequently, the proposed subsidy is essential to make the Kirkby scheme viable to the Club”

That concluding sentence has the board and their management team bang to rights. On the opening day of the inquiry, with his opening statement, Patrick Clarkson QC sounded the death knell for Everton’s stadium charade when he announced to the world that, “Ours is not an enabling case.” You could have heard a pin drop in the large inquiry hall; well, you could have except for the loud crash which came from the Everton inquiry team as their collective jaws dropped to the floor as they were hung out to dry by their “partners”

There were worse days to come of course and whilst the journalist from the Daily Post, who was there on nearly every day of the inquiry, was put under pressure due to his reporting of the facts, rather than the spin, there couldn’t have been many better days for him or justification for his stance when he reported this:

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/sport/everton-fc/everton-fc-stadium/2008/12/11/everton-inquiry-mystery-surrounds-kirkby-s-52million-economic-miracle-99623-22451792/

Sadly, that particular journalist no longer works at the Post, I believe he’s left the profession and the area all together.

I’m astonished that Evertonians don’t know or if they do don’t understand what all of this means. Why did they do it? Well the truth was that whilst there was no benefit for the club whatsoever, nor the fans or the vast majority of ordinary shareholders; the benefit was for those shareholders who would materially benefit from the £52m VALUE which, as Matt correctly points out, would have eventually appeared on Everton’s balance sheet, the instrument through which the health of any business is measured.

Despite the £52m not actually existing, the old adage that money is the root of all evil can still be applied as the prospect of a £52m windfall addressed the growing problem with Everton’s Balance Sheet at a single stroke, but it in no way had any impact on addressing the stadium cost for obvious reasons; Everton were paying the full cost of the stadium construction. It’s a bit like a tramp who’s won a Rolls Royce telling everyone he has £100k in his pocket; he doesn’t, not until he sells it anyway.

Why there’s a problem stems from the fact that in 1999 the balance sheet was positive, it exhibited a £20m net asset position but now it’s negative as it exhibits a £35m net liability position. This £55m shift has been caused by the owner’s refusal or reluctance to actually invest a single penny in the business which meant that any commercial improvement has always been down to “partners”

In the absence of any investment they’ve employed a strategy of selling assets to fund the business operation, with the inevitable consequence that you run out of fixed assets but we’re saved due to at least being able to generate funds from selling intangible assets which is what they’ve concentrated on in recent years; almost £40m of players sold and wages saved over two seasons with no replacements, which led to a series of protests due to the obvious affect this “no investment no idea” was having on the pitch. Although player sales continued throughout the last two windows, the board at least sanctioned some additions as they added some old and a few new faces to the squad last January and did so in the summer whilst still managing to deliver a profit on player trading.

It’s a complex story, one that journalists can’t get across in 500 words and a headline, like they can with Liverpool, United or Leeds, but I’ll keep repeating this every time somebody tries to pass off what really happened as something or nothing. What occurred over Kirkby should have led to Bill Kenwright and his cohorts being removed from the boardroom at Everton, in fact I believe they should be banned for life from the ground.

Instead, we have people clapping like seals hoping for a fish, completely oblivious to what really occurred and repeating parrot fashion the mantra of the brain dead, “be careful what you wish for, look at Portsmouth….”, collectively unable to realise that the root cause of what happened at all those clubs is directly apportionable to the actions of their original owners putting profit before everything else. Look at Liverpool, Hicks & Gillette shouldn’t be held responsible alone; apportion blame to the shareholders who readily accepted their money in the first place.

For those believing our current incumbents have only the best interests of the club at heart, think about the type of buyer who’d be fooled by a white elephant of a stadium or the excuses that attempt to explain the selling off of Everton’s ability to raise their commercial activity to that of their peers. When you find that person, one who’s willing to part with a vast amount of money I’d guess you’d have found someone living in a Singapore bedsit who wasn’t found out until after chasing him to complete the deal, not my words, the words of the guy who told you Goodison wouldn’t soon obtain a safety certificate. In other words nobody in their right mind will pay this lot for what they’ve done with Everton but when that buyer does emerge you have to be very suspicious indeed.

Not sure Thomas about where in the accounts there are signs of steady growth and impressive improvement beyond the commentary pages which are the spin. To use a footballing analogy, if your £20m striker, who only scored one goal last season, has a 400% increase in his strike rate this season you don’t have a great striker, you’ve still got a shite striker who’s only scored four goals, haven’t you.

Our commercial oblivion is defended to the hilt by the club but nobody is going to tell me that receiving no money from Nike when others are in receipt of millions is good business for one of the country’s most famous and most successful clubs; we’re being taken for a ride like we were over Kirkby and the Park End, it’s called having a track record and your suggestion that KEIOC has spun stories to Evertonians is ludicrous and frankly offensive; they’ve revealed the truth and some just don’t like to accept it.

I get asked why I no longer write articles on Toffeeweb, well this answer is about a year’s worth isn’t it; but in all honesty I’ve stopped because I just don’t care in that way anymore; people will get the Everton they deserve and the Everton they now have is one that applauds a phoney who should be banned from the club for what he is responsible for over Kirkby, and a whole host of other fiascoes, whilst they stand by and do nothing as a fifty season veteran Everton supporter gets harassed by a solicitor acting for the club and the police, has his season ticket removed and gets banned from the ground for what? Not for breaking any known regulation but for speaking out against something he passionately disapproves of. I don’t actually agree with his views but I’d defend his right to speak freely without fear of reprisals. It's just another form of bullying in my book and it's something I strongly disagree with; but of course some will believe the spin once more; but before you engage your right to express your opinion freely just remember who it is that has the track record of telling lies to supporters and public officials.

Liverpool supporters were up in arms over the Jen Chang incident, this is ten times worse and how do Evertonians react? They do what they always do and that’s why Everton get away with how they treat their fans and shareholders the way they do.

If you know your history eh? Well if everybody did, they'd know that the club of today was founded by a small group of rebels who opposed a money obsessed individual who had his supporters who are the descendants of those across the park, kopite behaviour? I don't think so, there's a rich history of protest and standing up for what's right at Everton.

Is that the longest post in TW history?

Get over yourself!

Thank you

Ken @ 589 Can you give us a counter argument to Colin's post?

I can tell you are at your wits' end with some but never let it diminish your zeal.

I do not know you but, like many Evertonians, I hold you in high regard because of your astonishing work in searching for the truth in protection of the club's interests. Many of us share your concern but lack your talent and determination.

The majority are always slow to rise warning signs are no match for the comfort of apathy. People will queue to tell you what can't be done but there is always one man who says otherwise and a man stands on the moon, Adolf gets chased back to Berlin.

Whether you like it or not, Colin, at this time, at this moment in this club's history, you are that man. Never give up; stuff the naysayers – they will all have a thousand excuses when the truth appears – as it will.

Agree totally with Barry.

(Suggestion for Ken Crowther — feel the urge to say something dumb, unfunny and/or pointless? Try Bluekipper).

We haven't made an ounce of profit since 2005 and that is despite the mass player sales and various other asset flogging. The losses since 2006 speak for themselves.

King's Dock should have been the end for this lot. Kirkby was another glorious failure and now the stadium well is truly dry.

AGMs were cancelled because the club didn't like the increasingly probing questions. Fan concern over the club's future is not negative, maybe somebody should let Elstone and co. in on that nugget of information. The idea that they were hijacked is laughable.

As Colin's excellent comment pointed out, at this rate, we'll soon get the Everton that ignorance breeds and, only then, when it is too late will the masses wake up. It was almost too late with Johnson and it nearly killed the club. Can Everton really afford to make the same mistake twice. .

I have two regrets: one is that most blues won't see it and will continue their happy clapping; we are playing well at the moment but the long-term rot is still there.

The second is that Colin really sounds dejected at the end. This fight continues, and it is a fight worth having, and pieces like yours, Colin, put the fire back in my belly.

Thank you for a fantastic analysis.

No doubt I’ll fall off that chair next year – as will quite a few millionaires who think they can do what they want – when we all read the book that’s rumoured to be coming out which Colin has written a chapter for. Club lackeys won't find it as easy to ban publishers as they do newspapers, websites or football supporters.

In the words of Stewart Lee - 'You can prove anything with facts'

Keep up the good work.

Support Richard Knights.

Kind regards

Fortunately he’s tenacious enough to see this through all the way to the ombudsman if necessary and I for one support him fully and I hope many will join him.

As the investigation by the police is ongoing it would of course be remiss of me to reveal details surrounding the specific allegations which led to Richard being confronted, in his home, by two uniformed officers who issued the recordable verbal warning [RVW] that he received; but I think it’s only right and proper to draw people’s attention to how the police’s decision, to take the action that they did, was perhaps influenced by supporting allegations which deemed that Richard was confrontational and abusive in the reception of Everton, leaving the receptionist disturbed, and was shortly afterwards physically removed from the club shop by a security guard, due to his behaviour which was described as leaving female members of staff in the shop "fearful of their safety."

All extremely serious allegations which understandably would colour anybody’s perception of the alleged perpetrator as being a potential danger which required the security guard to write a report to record this serious incident.

I have no doubt whatsoever that some form of incident has occurred in the shop and somebody was removed on that day, the problem for Everton and the police is that Richard hasn’t set foot inside the shop in many years and the results of his Data Protection Act request to Everton to release the CCTV footage from these locations which are, understandably, heavily monitored areas, has to date not been forthcoming; not surprising really as the Police, after making the same enquiry with Everton, have now informed Richard that Everton have admitted to them that no CCTV evidence exists!

Many would think this quite remarkable; indeed many would find it astonishing but it doesn't take a genius to work out what’s happening here. Let’s hope all those implicated in this disgraceful incident are identified and correctly disciplined for this.The widely publicised Jen Chang incident at LFC was a joke in comparison to what can only be described as an act of orchestrated corporate bullying which many organisations are already fully aware of as it’s a course of action which has been taken in many other instances. I've even heard of this tactic being employed against a fan writing critical poetry about his club; police officers turned up and issued him with a RVW; what a world we’re living in.

Unfortunately the response from Evertonians so far has been all too predictable, just like it was over the revelations that there never was £52m from Tesco towards the stadium or the many other outrageous incidents which have sadly become part of Everton's recent history.

Don't expect the press to take up this fight; too many Evertonians believe in some idealistic “woodstein” type press that simply doesn't exist; like I said earlier, you get what you deserve; sit there, do nothing and they get away with it again and it becomes the norm.

Since my season ticket was withdrawn, seat lain empty...