David Moyes approaching a crossroad?

It's not as if no-one who knows about footy doesn't know we are on our arse and the gobshites on the board won't cough up any deniro for some more players. Everyone already knows.

Will we go backwards? I doubt it, I fancy a number of people would want to take the job at Everton. My worry is that, in order to move forward, we require investment and a chance for some youngsters to be integrated it's a worry that none have this season.

In an ideal world, we'd have rich backers, or a business-wise chairman, but given that we have neither, Moyes cannot expect us to borrow more and more to attempt to compete with the RS, spurs and every other team chasing 4th spot.

I'd like to see a manager come in who is prepared to turnover the playing squad regularly, selling players for good money and reinvesting in the team, not to mention giving our academy players an opportunity.

Unfortunately we just don't have the financial resources to be able to keep hold of our more ambitious players, so as fans we just need to accept that the only way we're going to compete is to stop taking on more borrowing and accept that we have to live within our means.

If I'm honest I think Moyes will struggle at another team. He has it cushy here in so many respects and he is a good fit for our club too. Any club which will back him financially will have a lot less patience with not winning silverware.

Where we finish this season is not the issue.
DM wants financial support so that he can fulfill the potential shown by the best first eleven he has moulded together for years.
We have had great players at times playing in so so teams.
Now we have a good team we need to improve/strengthen the squad and show real ambition.
The present squad lacks depth and everyone can see that without being a pundit.

If the board do not support him now when its needed, then its time for him to say thats as far as I can take the team.
He has made silk purses out of sows ears for ages and its time mother Hubbards cupboard was closed once and for all.

I thought that's what Moyes has been doing, regularly turning over the staff. Selling in order to buy.

And he can only get "good money" if there are those in the market is willing to pay.

Play the academy lot by all means, as long as they're clearly better than what we have. But I don't see much that's going to improve us. If goals are currently the problem, who in the academy can deliver?

We're doomed, all doomed!

He and we deserve to see this millionnaire board put some of their money into a transfer budget as other businesses do.

I don't want to see other teams' cast-offs running out in an Everton shirt.

What is so cushy (other than his salary)? Not winning things isn't a Moyes disease, its what happens when you're not in the money. Only City and Chelsea will have their managers in their sights if no trophies are picked up. Arsene has got away with it for years, Fergie could go three years without as he ain't being sacked before his retirement.

Some opposed to Moyes think of these crude generalisms and point the finger at Moyes for living up to them.

You often read on here such things like 'Moyes gets to do as he wants - runs the club as he sees fit' etc like its a bad thing, or somehow that power he has earned negates what success he has achieved in lifting the club on a shoe string.

All sounds very churlish, that at Everton it doesn't really count, and would be a different story at a different club, obviously, blah blah...

If, a big if, we do get to the 4th place and it means we qualify ( Look at Spurs last term) then maybe we should look to strengthen, but with our finances we really do need to be carefull.

The lack of noise coming out of the Club regarding investment to keep Moyes happy is deafening. He has already said he wants some investment in the squad so if he doesn't get any at all I reckon he'll be off and we'll be searching round for another miracle worker or face years of relegation battles.

It's entirely up to the board.

It will take someone to dictate what their plans are and stick with them. We have not only missed out on investment of hard cash, but it appears that our investment in youth development has not produced the desired results either. As the bigger clubs are showing signs that they are moving from the high value transfers that were all the rage up until the last couple of years and looking at players who will give them years of service. There will always be the RVP type transfers, but they are becoming fewer and only City and Chelsea are able to make these sort of purchases on a regular basis.

We have an ageing squad and no sign of young players with the required ability to compete in the PL. So until the club decides what it really wants from its manager and staff and communicates that to the fans, we will have to live with the hand to mouth existence that we have endured for the past ten years.

This season we may be laughing at Aston Villa - who might get relegated but may also win a trophy - but they have bitten the bullet and changed their policy and have blooded youngsters, only time will tell if they succeed in what they are doing, but if they do they will be stronger than we are in no time at all.

Next time you're watching please avert your gaze from the likes of:

Howard
Gibson
Neville
Hitzlsperger
Pienaar?
Heitinga?

Part of Moyes's transfer strategy has been to pick up cast-offs and... er... recast them, so to speak.

Moyes leaving would send a clear message to the players and before you know it our first team would be decimated.

Finance is a seperate matter in some respects and something that Moyes has always been aware of, but you only have to look at our present squad to think where we could be with that extra bit of quality in key positions.

...and instead focus your gaze on Colman, Jagielka, Baines, Mirallas and Jelavic, not to mention Cahill and Lescott. All 'cast offs' too?

To be fair to those you have maligned, Howard (who saved us from getting thrashed last night by half-time), Neville (who for all his alleged shortcomings, never lets us down), Heitinga (who until being marginalised again this season, has galvanised the side every year he has been granted a first team birth), Pienaar (who, along with Jelavic, transformed us last year and gives 110% in every game he plays) and Gibson (who has become the most valued 'cast off' I can remember), do not deserve your implied criticism. And Hitzlsperger has only had a handful of cameo roles, so very unfair.

Few, if any, can compare with Moyes when it comes to turning sow's ears into silk purses, so your attempt to cast aspersions on our alleged cast-offs is just another patently gratuitous attempt to kick Moyes below the belt.

I have no idea what these men do to forward the chances of EFC becoming a successful club again

To too many fans finishing 5th, 6th or the fabled holy grail of 4th is enough and nearly counts as a trophy, sorry to disappoint but it doesn't....not even close

These faceless men should either sell the club (they have done nothing to forward it for years) or start to take EFC seriously

Because they don't, do they??

Where else would he go? The premier league is the best league in the world, so forget any moves to a euro club.

He won't get a better relationship with the chairman anywhere else either.

The only "better" jobs in the premier league are Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea or Arsenal.

Man Utd - Fergie doesn't look ready to move aside anytime soon
Man City - The owners have looked fairly comfortable with the current manager
Chelsea - you'd have to ask yourself serious questions if you took this on for 6 months
Arsenal - No opportunity there whilst wenger is serving the business side of the club so well.

Managers moving jobs is normally about taking an opportunity when it arises. Timing is something they don't have control of - a "better" job can come up at any time, but it would be a brave man who would sit unemployed hoping there was a phonecall.

Besides, I'm sure he loves being in the football world. I can't see any reason why he wouldn't sign again. Thats not to say he won't move on if another club comes knocking, but to remove yourself from football until a better option comes up is a gamble and probably not much fun.

We have a very good first eleven when everyone is fit and firing but there is virtually nothing underneath that. And that is down to money and nothing else. So when Jelavic is suffering a crisis of confidence and needs to be taken out of the firing line, what happens? Jelavic keeps his place because there is nobody to replace him.

I don't want to see Everton placing themselves at financial risk by lavishing money on expensive players. But if the board are not prepared to provide the money for a couple of half season loan signings, which I suspect Moyes would settle for, it can mean one of only two things; either Everton are so broke that even this relatively small outlay is beyond them... or the Chairman and directors are just completely bereft of any ambition and boldness. I'll let you all try and decide which is worse because I can't.

We had good offers for players(e.g. Saha) and keeping players like fellaini is a bit like having a rolls royce engine in a fiat punto chassis. I'd rather Moyes actively flogged him for £30M and bought us a bunch of players for under £10M who were young but had potential. Fellaini's wages should cover the salary for at least 2 of them.

If you think I'm wrong, look at the leaps the club has taken every time moyes has been forced to sell players to generate funds. We sold rooney for £25M, lescott for something similar and Arteta for £10M. Each time, the playing squad improved far more than the loss we took by losing the player.

Nick,(778) whats cushy about his position at Everton is that he's under no pressure whatsoever to finish anywhere above 17th and he has complete control of the playing side of things. Can you imagine BK sacking Moyes? I can't.

They both suit each other down to the ground. Moyes hasn't generally put pressure on kenwright to let go of his train set and Kenwright doesn't cause a fuss if results or performances are not good.

At chelsea you get sacked despite winning champions league trophies. Virtually any club he goes to he will have much more accountability and pressure for his job, and it will be especially so if that club spends more money than us.

Could it be perhaps to do with the interest we have to pay on our debts causing us to run a loss every season?

BK and his team may be inept at running the business side of the club and generating revenue, but so far as I'm aware they don't pocket vast sums of money.

The above considered, do you think Moyes pressuring BK to borrow even more money is going to leave us in a better situation if we fail to get 4th?

Moyes needs to do his job and justify his large salary and manage the club within the means that we have. If we are not good enough for him then he should leave.

If the club fails to achieve CL football next year it will have to begin operating within its means. It cannot continue the way it has been, mortgaging everything to the hilt and selling off all its assets (nothing left to sell anyway) to spend on players.

I think this season is the last chance. If we fail to qualify for Europe, we need to get all the high earners off our books and move on our big names for as much as we can get, reduce the gigantic black hole of debt we have and start over. If we could maintain a Top 10 position while doing so, that would be acceptable to me.

When the debts are all paid off and if we're making an operating profit, then we can start looking at investing in playing staff again and pushing for the Europa League. Perhaps with better looking books we'd even stand a higher chance of being sold?

Moyes has become an important part of Everton – some would say too important – and he is showing no signs of committing himself beyond his current contract. It could also mean that he doesn't consider that the deal in front of him is worthwhile, as for being unemployed for any period of time – I'm sure he'll cope and won't need to claim Employment Support Allowance! He'll probably have a sabbatical and then take a job that suits him.

I couldn't believe what I watched last night. Even in the second half when they improved (it didn't take much to improve on the first half) they were still a shadow of the team we have seen in 2012.

Bolton will have looked at that performance and will fancy their chances this weekend.

Moyes should sign and show he has confidence in this squad. The worst that can happen is we finish 7th and Everton get compo from the club that comes in for Moyes in the Summer.

Perhaps I'm a bit weird, but I take all these media comments with a pinch of salt - I don't immediately lap up that Stubbs knows Moyes's thoughts nor intentions. He is simply offering his opinion.

I don't know about you, but I keep my appraisals/salary negotiations/job offers/career disappointments/job seeking close to my chest. I certainly don't go discussing them with colleagues who have a habit of talking to the media/other people within the business.

Given his general demeanour, I expect Moyes is much the same.

"Nick,(778) whats cushy about his position at Everton is that he's under no pressure whatsoever to finish anywhere above 17th and he has complete control of the playing side of things. Can you imagine BK sacking Moyes? I can't."

It is difficult to quantify that statement as Moyes has failed to finnish as low as 17 in the last 8 years and infact the finnishing position each season is above the commonly held expectancy of the pundits and press alike. Therefore he is under no pressure because he is not failing the sensible expectations, just the ridiculous ones that fans hope for. That is not seen as a sackable offence by the board at EFC, but would be at money bags Chelsea. That is the current situation.

It's also admits defeat to say any of our top players are like a rolls Royce engine in a fiat chassis. I say change the chassis.

As for the Arteta money, along with £7m more in outgoings that year he still hasn't seen that money, only spending what he sold in the last two windows, spending nothing in the previous 4.

Being under no pressure to finish above 17th? More crude generalisations... you don't think he busts his balls to get the most out of the club?

And no, I can't imagine him being sacked because his record doesn't deserve it. You sure you're not believing what you want to believe?

You are right though, Moyes does need to manage the club within its means, and if he can't reach his potential here he will find a club good enough for him because there are many better equipped than Everton.

Economy of words, its a skill.

Some people need to get a grip. Moyes is not Everton. The club existed long before him and will continue to exist after him. For the majority of his time in charge we have been utter shite to watch. Losing Moyes might actually be a blessing.

The reality of it all though, is that he isn't going anywhere because there's nowhere for him to go. Having been overlooked for Spurs last summer, there's no chance of the clubs above us wanting him and I seriously doubt he'd go to Germany. So we can all look forward to many more years of nights of exciting hoofball like last night.

So, would you like to explain how are we going to "change the chassis"?

I'm a pragmatic person, and I deal with reality. When I pass a ferrari dealership, I don't go in and get £100,000 worth of debt because I want a nice car. I EARN the money first, then buy the car. If I crash the car, or lose my job, I'm not fucked, am I?

I'd love one of our directors to put up £50M of cash for moyes to spend. But thats not going to happen is it? I'd love a silent investor to give us money to compete with Man City, but thats not going to happen either. We could get rid of BK and replace him with a foreign investor, but only SAF has held onto his job when rich investors take over a club. Want to be another blackburn?

We're not going to be able to replace Hibbert, Jags, Distin, Pienaar, Neville or Osman(all over 30) or buy a backup for Jelavic, by sitting on our arses hoping for the fairy godmother to turn up.

If you're happy for the club to take on more debt to fund Moyes transfer dealings then that's your prerogative. Personally, I want my club run like I run my own business....on a sound financial footing so that its likely to still be around in 10 years.

When we did finish 17th with a goal difference of -12, can you remember Kenwright sacking Moyes or even making any noises about it?

Moyes has been with us for nearly 11 years, it's time for a fresh start for both. We have had better league finishes than we've had for a good few years, but we existed before Moyes and we will still exist afterwards.

I feel the bigger problems isn't life without Moyes, it's life ongoing with Kenwright and the antiquated stadium which is putting off any potential buyer (even if Bill's not). Moyes has had 11 years, time for a change with fresh ideas.

I'm criticising him for being unrealistic about what the club can provide.

If we had enough money to keep our best players AND buy more, then I'd be a happy bunny. We don't. End of.

The books look bad for a normal business that would be expected to make a profit... But — and here's the rub — if you make a profit, you have to pay tax on it. No-one likes doing that... so there is, shall we say, an 'incentive' to make sure the books show the club bobbling around break-even, or at least making a loss more often than not. And's that's what they've done for at least the last 10 years.

I believe this is facilitated by flakey concepts like 'ammortization', which (I am convinced) is just one of many dubious rouses cooked up by accountants to make sure the books give the required message. The fact is, Everton FC Co Ltd continues to operate.... while many savey onlookers scratch their collective heads and proclaim that (like that daft old bloke who used to wander Goodison Road) The End is Nigh!

Looking at the situation in the cold hard light of day, Moyes has done miracles in comparison to the previous ten years. The trouble with that is, we as fans expect and demand more and we feel let down by our predicament, especially when that lot across the park seem to find countless millions each year. Our downfall started when they got banned from Europe and ensured that we were as well. That is the biggest travesty. We were in the ascendance and they knew it.

Every time there is competition for a player, we drop out!! No-one else showed interest in Bily, Heitinga, Oviedo, Drenthe, Gueye, Beckford and Naismith. All of which have never shown 'real' ability in the Premier 9.

As for your last sentence, I understand and I feel the same, but being jealous and pissed off at your peers is not a reason to try to bankrupt yourself trying to match them at a game you can't win.

Moyes should have some money to play with next season due to the increase in the TV deal (although this will be relative to other Premier League teams). It might be enough to buy someone without having to sell. If we don't make Champions League or if Moyes goes, then Fellaini will go, and money will be available from the sale for whoever is in charge. Also Heitinga is likely to go at some point soon. We are likely to get a few mil there, but more importantly his hefty wages off the bill, freeing up some more cash.

I hope Moyes stays, but if he doesn't there are others out there who could do a good job. We just need to be careful that we get the right man.

Trevor (836) I do think Beckford wasn't given a fair chance and I think City were looking at Heitinga a while back. But the others – fair point.

I think he already knows Moyes plans to walk at the end of the season.

Moyes may have full control at the club but that's because nobody else gives a shit.

Bill is quite happy to turn up and watch games as chairman while letting everyone else he can blame take the flak.

Messrs Green and Earl are just waiting for a stadium payday.

Lord Grantchester knows what a buffoon Bill is so will not put any money in while he's still there and Elstone is quite content to keep the banks happy and his reputation intact.

This situation reminds me so much of the break up of the 80s team – albeit for different reasons. The best players and the manager all start to consider leaving because they can smell a sinking ship with nothing to win.

No-one has 100% proof of anything where speculation is concerned (including me), and the media often reports things that are only about 20% true, so please don't not comment on my account.

I just think Stubbs's words have been taken slightly out of context, as if they are gospel/inside info when I suspect it's just his own opinion on things when asked by the media. And we all have our own opinions...

That real cash loss was covered by the sale proceeds of Arteta, as debt barely moved last year. People need to realise that Arteta was sold to cover interest payments and cover the loss from wages and other expenses exceeding income. The proceeds did not go to the bank to reduce debt down, it just stopped the overdraft growing another £10m or so.

However this year is pretty crucial, a top 4 finish absolutely essential. The reason I say this we have probably the best starting 11 in all his tenure; however, it is also the oldest team we have had. Without significant investment it is unsustainable.

Moyes recently said he had 14-15 players of the required standard. I tried to work out who he thought they were but based on his selections I would guess the following 16:

Howard 33
Hibbert 31
Jakielka 30
Distin 35
Hetinga 29
Coleman 24
Neville 36
Gibson 25
Osman 31
Fellaini 25
Pienaar 30
Naismith 26
Mirallas 25
Anichebe 24
Jelavic 27
Baines 28

By any stretch of the imagination that is an old team which has a very limited window of opportunity. The rock and the hard place of course is that the limited number of promising young players we have would weaken the team in the short term despite the many pleadings on this site, ie Barkley, Duffy and Vellios.

I suspect Moyes can see this and if we fail to qualify for CL league this year either Baines or Fellaini will have to go, Why would he want to keep on struggling year after year if a wealthier club makes him an offer?

I am of the belief that Everton Football Club is still one of the biggest jobs in football . I am also of the belief that there will be plenty of coaches in the world of football who would be attracted by a very handsome salary and a chairman who doesn't pull the trigger after a few dodgy results. If you want names, Laudrup, Adkins, Di Matteo to name three.

And if you want proof of the cosy relationship between Moyes and Kenwright, name me another manager/chairman combo who went on the Goals on Sunday sofa and kissed eachother's arses?!

Everton FC est 1878 not 2002 !!!

On the one hand, I congratulate Moyes on his 'achievements', getting plucky Everton to upper mid table security. He has certainly unearthed some gems and has a reasonable transfer record overall, under the circumstances. The media now love him, but always follow their praise of him with a reminder that he has operated on a limited budget. Up to December this season, we have played, for me, the best football of his tenure. That alone had me wondering if he was trying to shake off his 'boring' tag for potential suitors.

However, the majority of his time here he has served up turgid, awful football. I gave up my season ticket because I was fed up of seeing shite, defensive performances against the likes of Wigan. I despair when the opposition gets a corner, as we will pack the 18 yard area with our full team and struggle to regain meaningful possession - last night was a prime example of this.

His support for our pathetic chairman, and their love-in performances on Goals on Sunday etc make me physically sick. I can never forgive him for the 3 performances aginst the shite last season, and really we have capitulated when it mattered most on every major game with him in charge.

While I have been writing this, I have decided!! I wish him well, and thank him for his efforts. But maybe, for Everton FC to move forward, the first step might be for David Moyes to move on.

Its only when you see it written down you realise how old our team is. We're going to be in big trouble in a couple of years when most of them need replacing ( some already do ).

The Southampton side that outplayed us and out-fought us yesterday probably cost a fraction of ours to buy and maintain. They were all technically very good and worked really hard. I wonder what Nigel Adkins could do with a £60M budget for the playing staff?

Its natural to be wary and afraid of the unknown, but personally I'd not be too concerned if Moyes left. There seem to be a couple of decent young coaches about who'd jump at the chance to manage a club of our size.

But you talk of Moyes furthering the club's debt if he is to hang around, why presume this? Its BK's job to find investment and where is it? Exactly... good bye Everton.

I can't fathom some of your thoughts above though. If Moyes is under no pressure to finish above 17th from BK, why then do you worry to think BK is going to saddle the club with more debt just to keep him? Those two beliefs are incompatible.

Total Club revenue for the year was £144m, 12% lower than the prior year (2011: £163m), which was primarily due to the absence of Champions League football.

Revenues continued to increase on the commercial front with media revenues increasing 10% and Sponsorship and Corporate Hospitality also increasing 10%.

Merchandising was 4% lower largely due to the lack of Champions League participation, but the focus on cost control ensured that operating costs were also lower, down 1% on the prior year.

The Club made an operating loss after football trading of £1.6m (2011: Profit £1.4m) and a loss for the year after interest and tax of £4.3m (2011: Profit £0.7m).

Chairman Daniel Levy commented: "We are ever ambitious for the Club, driving all areas of the business and our focus continues to be the delivery of an increased capacity stadium. There is much work to be done refining the detailed design and resolving the final development issues.

“We intend to deliver this to the same high standards of the new Training Centre and to reward our incredibly loyal supporters with a world class stadium and one that will have made a crucial contribution to the regeneration of a priority borough in London."

Other than that , you talk about wealthier clubs, then I can only think you mean the likes of Newcastle and Stoke. That is not a step up the ladder. I am also extremely confident he wouldn't command the salary he does at those clubs. I also bet many of their players are on nothing like what Everton's better earners are on.

Moyes may be bored, he may want a new challenge, he may even believe he's a great manager - whatever, if he wants to go don't let the door hit your arse on the way out pal.

If he wants to stay the merrier. But to suggest the club is fucked without him is naive in the extreme. Maybe an Adkins could come in, get a £20 million kitty from the sale of Felli and Baines, and take the club forward. Maybe Pardew comes in and we're consecutively relegated the next two seasons.

There are no certainties in football. But I refuse to accept we should be held hostage by anyone, let alone Moyes.
ps – For what it's worth, I don't think Davey is going anywhere. Recent quotes gushing over his "old-fashioned" chairman make me think a new deal is on the way.

The problem is as I see it is that we will need another £20m or so in the summer just to get the resources to play in the CL/Europa, PL, League, and FA Cups next season. Being successful means playing twice a week with a top squad of 18 - 20 players - we have at best 14-15 with half of them nearing retirement age.

We never had the funds to do it in 2005. The players we spent money on we need to spend on anyway as Moyes was still dismantling the squad that Walter built.

The scary thing is, that list of players' ages posted earlier suggests that whoever comes in if Moyes does leave after this season is going to inherit a high wage, high age squad with only a couple of players with substantial sale value. Much like Moyes when he arrived.

The only thing that will get rid of kenwright is if the fans turn on him in a big way. For Kenwright, finishing 17th is acceptable so long as the fans don't revolt and his best means to keep the fans onside is to keep hold of Moyes, who doesn't really rock the boat and is a good manager.

We basically have three possibilities going forward:

1) Live within our means, in which case we need to sell our most saleable assets on a regular basis to improve the squad as a whole and keep debt manageable.

2) BK finds investment.

3) BK borrows more money.

Option 2 is highly unlikely. The kind of investment BK is looking for leaves him in control of the trainset, and that is highly unlikely to happen. People with money are generally not stupid.

Option 3 would be the final nail in the coffin for our club in my opinion.

Which leaves option 1 as the only pragmatic solution....unless the fans revolt en-mass and depose our glorious leader, of course.

The worry from my point of view, is that stuck between a rock and a hard place, BK may very well get another shady loan at an extortionate interest rate just to make Moyes sign a new contract. That would be highly dangerous given that we can't hope to financially compete with 5 or 6 clubs in the league. What happens if our last pennies are spent on a Bily rather than a Jelly?

£50m off the debt, assuming our creditors will accept it, will allow Everton to live within its means in future. We wouldn't get relegated.

I think those who continuously bang on about Moyes' achievements on a shoestring disregard that Everton pay probably the 6th or 7th highest wages in the Premier League so regardless of whether we pay big transfer fees we are about where we should be. For the record I'm generally a Moyes apologist.

The problem is we can't match Moyes' ambition. Every few years he runs down his contract and holds the board to ransom. This time all he's doing is asking them not to sell before the end of the season and allow him just another year of this ridiculously leveraged position he has steered us in to.

Now he's touting himself around Germany, after failing to get an interview at Spurs, but the fact is there is no better job out there for him so he might have to be the one to oversee the fire sale.

In terms of ageing squad etc. I think we need to consider tv money is going up, and Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece etc outside a couple of super clubs will be not in a position to maintain current player salary / transfers. The football world is changing.

Moyes needs to stick his head above the parapet and tell BK we need the money, so he needs to find it ...and, if he can't, sell up to someone who can invest in the squad. Hold him to ransom, make it public — and make us as fee-paying loyal fans proud.

Now, you really want to roll the dice?

Honestly, can you really see the odds as different from thse above?

He wants to move forward and isn't going to hang around into years 13, 14, 15 waiting to lose motivation. Walking at the end of his contract is the dignified way out.

The ambivalence, lack of salary justification, the transitory role, financial bullying and the mutually convenient relationship with the chairman themes you peddle above are wide of the mark.

That you critisise him for not being sackable, is with many things you've said, hard to figure.

Our loss is much greater than the interest repayments.

Moyes's job is to keep the club in the EPL and get 40 points — anything else is a bonus. This is the hard reality, we can't compete with our neighbours who have now turned the corner and are eyeing 4th spot. Spit, it makes me sick.

Well for your pay rise read transfer kitty for Moyes.

Getting wages off the books doesn’t free up cash. Wages are money we have not yet got but need to find, not money we have sitting in a bank just waiting to be spent.

So a player leaving just means we have to find less money to spend, not that we have more cash to spend.

12th highest-paid manager in Europe

The most telling comment was the last, he is in no hurry to sign. He holds all the cards, playing from a position of strength. Disconcerting for the team, the fans? The board??

Sadly I can't blame him, but if he moves on, whoever comes in will need investment as players will leave. Sale of Baines, Felliani and one or two others could clear the debt and some, making more attractive to a buyer and ensuring that any purchasers money goes directly to shareholders... not the club.
A win win all round, unless that is your a fan and expecting us to finish in the top six... but what do we know?

Moyes knows he cannot do any more than he has done with the players he has. CL is one step too far for this team, not because the first eleven aren't good enough, they are, but there is nothing on the bench. Nothing of high enough quality that you need to play CL.

Moyes will drag this out and I doubt he will sign because he won't be fooled again.

The fact is that without significant investment (which is clearly not going to happen) he has taken us as far as we can get. We will not get 4th this season, I think many of us suspect this to be true. We simply lack the strength in depth to adequately replace tired, injured or out of form players.

The two things that may just keep him are

1) His very high wages. Not necessarily going to be matched.
2) Where would he go? Without cups and european experience he represent a risk to the likes of Chelsea and other CL teams. Everton however are one of the best placed teams outside of the CL. It seems Germany might be an option.

If he goes I think Steven Telford @905 gives a good account of the possible scenarios. Most likely we will end up nearer our financial standing in the league which is somewhere around 9th-12th. But obviously nothing in life is a certainty. Apart from the certain things, like death, tax and in my case premature balding.

It would not matter if you had Mourinho or Ferguson, Guardiola etc managing whilst this administration is in charge. The resulting end position would be near enough the same.

If Moyes goes, he goes, he is not Everton. we will get a new manager and the same posts will happen on here. Some will give the new manager time, others will turn all "Newcastle" on his ass...etc etc and so the wheel turns.

We won't go down just because he leaves and who knows we may get someone who can get Jags to stop twatting the ball diagonal all the time.

What does he want?

Whether or not he tells us, it is unlikely to help the team to remain settled as the end of the season draws. He will get asked more and more about his future giving criptic answers, pretending he is bored by the question, when really he's loving it.

As a bunch of supporters, we have been scarred for life by two last day relegation battles, but how long are people going to quote the 90's as some sort of predictor for 2014?

We pay something like £60m in wages and are heading for 113 seasons in the top flight - the most of any English club. Surely being one of only 7 ever present teams in the P.L. has allowed us to assemble a half decent squad? I fecking hope so, if we are playing 50-75k a week to first team players.

If Moyes decides we can't meet his ambitions, well fair enough. We have seen mangers disappear without a trace to the lower Leagues before, and I suspect this is the best ever gig he will have in his career.

I can't see him telling Man U centre half's to hoof it to Van Persie & Rooney to chase down the channels somehow.

I have always been a Moyes fan and I think we will be hard pushed to replace him with anyone with the same ability. I know a lot have fans have said well he hasn't won anything, well I have been watching Everton since the mid fifties and I have seen only 3 managers win trophies. Both Catterick and Kendal first time had big money to spend and Joe Royle won the cup. So I would suggest that the only time we have challenged at the very top was when we could compete with anyone in the transfer market. Some will say well he has had 10 years to win something and some of our managers didnt get that long in the job, well the reason they didnt get 10 years is apart from the 3 who won trophies the rest in the main were useless.

But Spurs ignored him and with new managers coming through his £4 million a year with total control and fuck all to show for it might have priced him out the market.

Kenwright should reduce his pay to £2 million and say we're putting the savings in the transfer pot - take it or leave it and cheer up you miserable get.

Hire a new up-and-coming manager who would have fresh ideas, maybe even a foreign coach such as Di Cannio or Gus Poyet or perhaps a hungry British manager, and someone who will take the job with gusto for £20k a week.... maybe even Neville by the way!

Then move on all the high earners: Fellaini (£25 mill), Baines (£18 mill), Heitinga (£4 mill) etc, freeing up £50+ mill for consolidation of debt and other payments.

Then set a wage ceiling of £40k a week maximium for the next 3 years, renegotiate if payers are above it now, and move on those not prepared to do so.

Improve the scouting systems in Africa and Asia as that is where the new talent is ready to come from.

Put money aside for restructuring the ground and stands to make it a better place to come and actually see the game.

Then perhaps we could get some form of investment as the whole package would be more attractive.

OK, he hasn't won anything, but don't we all look at the team and think "if only we had a 2 or 3 more quality players in this position or that position"

His record for buying player is pretty good, yes you'll be able to name a list of failures but his success rate it as good as anyones.

He is in now way irreplaceable and he is nowhere near as bad as some on here try to suggest he is.

Nothing moren nothing less, no road to Damascus moment at all, no light, just a consistent opinion.

Right now this is his casino moment............one last roll of the dice for 4th.

Reality is we will likely finish 6th with one of the best ever opportunities to get 4th blown by our own incompetent board.

Moyes will leave and walk into a high profile pundit roll and effectively wait till something comes his way. Lets face it there may well be lots of clubs knocking on his door ...............but it wont be Man Utd.

Lets hope this isn't the beginning of the end and the players for their own gain keep their eyes on 4th.

If we do well in the league or cup he gets adulation as he has nearly no money to spend. If we don't have a good season he can use the excuse that he has no money!

If he goes to another club with money to spend he has NO excuses as he is held in high regard already.

It looks like Moyes is going to go, and I for one won't be crying myself to sleep. I'm just sick of watching negative tactics. The idea is to win the game. Moyes has ruined every striker in his ten years by playing one up front throughout. Jelly has gone off now, and so has Fellaini through being played out of position all season. He's OK there for a handful of games, but is obviously getting frustrated now. He's said himself recently he prefers defensive midfield.

Why did we buy Mirallas as a striker then play him on the right wing? I'ts just so we can stick to one up front, Fellaini in an advanced role and a blue-eyed boy in midfield. With Mirallas, Anichebe, Naismith and Jelly, we have plenty of options but Moyes will only consider one up front. It's so poor to watch most of the time. It's time for him to move on for his own sake and ours. He'll never win anything, he's just not a winner.

This is not a personal attack on either player (they are not alone but Web space is at a premium!) and I am sure they may well be very worthy people but it is a professional criticism more aimed at the manager of the team. After all, they do not pick themselves but are chosen by him above others. (It is intriguing to watch how few passes go to Naismith when it is the obvious ball to play – I wonder why? "Playing with 10/9 men" springs to mind!)

While money, sadly, is at the root of all the evils that bedevil the modern game, and obviously with more money you can acquire better players, nevertheless it is beyond contempt to suggest that even limiting ourselves to the Merseyside/NW region there are not young players who can be spotted, nurtured and coached to perform way beyond the capacities of players such as Naismith et al. Even within limited resources, are these seriously the best we have to offer? Are young lads such as Oviedo seriously deemed to be inferior to the likes of Naismith?

Okay, the latter came cheap, but he was a mistake, admit it and save the lad any further embarrassment. It has got to the stage now where I simply feel insulted and overcome with frustration at being asked to watch players of this calibre in a first XI.

David Moyes has many excellent qualities but he also has serious deficiencies. I do feel that it is crossroads time for him; while I have no knowledge whatsoever of his contractual arrangements, his personal circumstances or ambitions, it would not surprise me in the least to see him tempted by any offers that may come his way, especially from the rumours regarding German clubs. If so, he should go with sincere thanks for the job he has done at Everton, but nobody, nobody is irreplaceable.

I actually said the style of football they pursue is revolutionary, rather than the men themselves, but if a misquote helps your cause go for it.

The highest form of flattery is imitation – as witnessed by the adoption of the 4-5-1 across the league after Moyes showed it could be successful. Now teams in the mid table are playing keepball, playing the short passing game favoured by the Spanish national team, amongst others.

It's an attractive, workable style that with the right personnel is lethal. You cite statistics; sadly I feel the league table doesn't lie, and by the end of the season Mr Rogers will certainly be in front of us, and Mr Laudrup may well be too – oh and with a trophy in his first season perhaps as well.

Obviously, the only rule is that the numbers have to sum to 100.
Seriously, give it a go, then ask yourself if it’s dice you want to roll.

Whether that happens at the end of Moyes current contract – or the next – is immaterial. Either you trust the chairman to get the right man or you don't.

Swansea seem to have found a few successors to managers past.

If you don't trust the chairman to find the right guy... why? And what are you doing about it?

On the subject of Kenwright, I don`t expect him to fund signings for his stupidly overpaid manager from his own wealth-why should he? — but I would like him to fuck off and allow someone with even a little business sense to find ways to generate more income for the club.

OK, Moyes has kept us at `the top end` which has allowed his chairman to tread water. What a double act! Now it`s time for a change.

Reading you words it seems, you are saying, that it is illogical to want Moyes to move if you don’t trust the chairman to find a replacement? OK, so how many of the guys who are pro-Moyes moving on, would you guess trust the chairman to find a good replacement? My bet is not many (likely a tiny minority)
If you agree with my bet of “a tiny minority”. The logic of what you have said is, that the vast majority of people who are calling for an end to the Moyes era are irrational. In which case, we are essentially in agreement– just perhaps by different paths.

Phill, let’s not forget, this is Laudrup’s first season. I also like the guy, but early days yet.
Now, if say Laudrup took Swansea to where we currently are, what would you say to the Swansea equivalents of yourself who would call for him to move on because of underachievement.

The posts on this thread surprise me there is an undercurrent Moyes is pushing it with this contract situation. A few more "can't be arsed" performances like Southampton and the worm might actually turn.

I think Moyes attracts praise for a lot more than longevity.

As for Curbishley - I could roll out 'and looked what happened to them post Curbishley'.

However, let's be optimistic and place our trust in Kenwright getting it right again post Moyes.

But this time Bill's gonna find us a cheaper, more enigmatic and attack minded manager, who can not only keep us up, but consistently challenge for Europe, beat the red shite home and away and win a cup. All this, with a sell to survive... erm sorry...buy - fiscal plan.

Unfortunately, when Moyes goes, I fear Bill's selection criteria will be " he must like Jenny's eggs and keep us up"

So for now, I'll stick with Moyes and enjoy watching us challenge the top 6 while his contemporaries, the unbelievably dour Lambert or Alan the narcissist Pardew continue to struggle.

Come on Bradford City, I remember being at Forest v Everton on that terrible day when they lost all them lives in a tragic fire, there were no mobile phones and my parents, not being football savvy, knew about the fire, but didn't know where Everton were playing only that it wasn't at Goodison. Apart from that, Stuart McCall and Peter Beagrie were decent lads and they have connections with Bradford.

Swansea (capacity 19,500) wages? Signing fees?

Great football and application from bargain bucket players.

Michael Laudrup got them playing great football (another no-mark coach. Ahem)

Eric(916) - I suspect the interest payments are a sizable chunk of any loss we make. The rest is probably to do with overspending on salaries and fees or misjudging income.

My point was that people don't seem to equate the fact that we're in debt with the reasons why Moyes may not see all the money he generates from transfers. What world are people living in??

What pisses me off more than anything these days is listening to people constantly fucking whining like everyone owes them something. Whining someone hasn't given them a job(perhaps a more useful qualification than media studies would help, or start your own bloody business!), or whining because they are losing their child benefit despite earning £60k per year. We live in an entitlement society and its winding me up.

I come here and still get fucking whining about why we cant compete with the RS or whoever. People want Moyes to be given more money, but there isn't anyone willing to do anything about it. You want the club to borrow money, but don't expect to have to deal with the fact that interest payments are required which impact future spending or our future sustainability.

People need to get a bloody grip. Either do whats required to get kenwright to sell up and then put up with all the different bollocks that a rich owner brings, or accept that we have to start cutting our cloth according to our means.

And Eric, I took a 50% pay cut in 2008, I didn't bitch or moan, I just got on with it, retrained and am now in a position where my business has never been busier. If Moyes has outgrown the club then that's fine. But people should be under no illusions that what he is demanding is in our interests. What he appears to be demanding is in his own interests and fuck the club's future.

Again, that's his prerogative to put himself at number 1 and number 2, but we all need to understand that. Personally I want to see a manager who is happy to stay long term and keep to a spending level that the club can sustain.

As for David Moyes, he is entitled to choose his own future as he has or will see out his contract in an honourable way regardless of what others think of his management ability.

Laundry will be a good replacement for Noted, but I don´t agree with all the comments about them playing terrific football. If anything, they have regressed a little in footballing terms but have shored up their defence.

You could see it coming and as you rightly say we haven't really recovered.

Trouble is he does this stuff year in year out and it costs us. People get arsey when his no trophy record is mentioned putting up the spurious money argument when in reality his bizarre antics are as much to blame.

Once again we're headed for 7th ish so that makes it alright - nob'ead thinking it really is.

You appear to recognise that it would be a gamble, but at the same time appear to imply that a lack of desire to gamble on this is akin to a lack of ambition. Surely, it can be said that the trait of a successful gambler is as much to know when to bet, as it is to know when not to bet.
My odds are of course subjective – which is why I invite people to throw in their own odds and add make clear on how they derive those odds. That way we can further see if there is a credible debate to be had, To be clear, base my odds of the following:
3 (almost 4) of the top EPL spots are bought and paid for. Under the current institution setting (Bosman….etc) and the financial position of EFC, I believe it is scarcely an exaggeration to say that even the likes of Ferguson and Mourino would struggle to have us consistently break into the top 4. On that basis, I say the odds of a gain severely outweigh the odds of a loss.
.It’s not out of dogma that I say stick with Moyes.

Why haven't we made the breakthrough?

Every manager has poor seasons with whatever club they're with. Didn't Davie finish 17th in his second season?

The world wont end with DM leaving. It will if Kenwright stays. I think the two may be linked though.

I also believe that whether Kenwright stays or not is irrelevant only whether we can find owners who are rich enough to pour many millions into what is an economic black hole.

I genuinely believe that our board is doing well, within the confines of the club's income. It's called an alternative reality again that I genuinely believe is shared by a large majority of Evertonians

He won't get steals like that forever. Even Wenger, who I admire so much, doesn't work the French market as well as he used to in the shape of Pires etc etc.

Regarding Curbs, I have to say what he did for Charlton is pretty much un-knockable for me. He was unbelievable for them. At West Ham however, lost the plot and paid too much on fees and wages for ageing footballers who had, in the main, already peaked.

But the main thing is, and Laudrup will probably find this out as has Pardew a couple of times now, there is a big difference between remaining competitive for a season or two and doing it for a decade. Its night and day. People can have any opinion on Moyes they like and the methods employed to do it, however it takes some doing. You can debate how you do it but the fact of the matter is Moyes has kept us consistently competitive in the Prem for a decade.

Do we shrug our shoulders for another 10 years accepting the Moyes philosophy of best of the rest and arseholes to the cups?

The years of turgid football caused by finances has been shown as a fallacy and Swansea or Bradford will put another nail in the coffin of "knowing your place" based on finances.

I always reckon it comes down to individual character how you decide on Moyes the route of least resistance is keep him and continue twiddling thumbs.

Not my idea of Everton:

"Better to live one day as a lion than 100 years as a lamb".

10 years ago they were on the verge of being sent down to the Conference, and look at them now.

The passing football, a new stadium, profitability, a vision to expand their new stadium, and almost certainly a major trophy.

This has all happened because of a visionary board, and the right appointments on and off the field. I doubt there is a first team player on more than £30k a week, and they are a pleasure to watch.

I hope they go on to even greater success.

Some fair points there. I suppose it comes down to the individuals definition of "kept us competitive"...

To me the Moyes legacy will always be measured by the Evertonian and non Evertonian views of him. The non-Evertonians see the guy working miracles year in year out with no money and his resolute hard to beat workmanlike teams.

Evertonians see a manager with a safety first attitude that has stopped the club succeeding almost as much as the lack of funds. He is the man that took the lead after 30 seconds of a cup final and then sat back on that lead hoping to ride it out, he is the man that surrendered a derby before a ball was kicked, he is the man that has overseen record league defeats home and away and the man that has overseen several cup defeats by lower league opposition.

The players need a new voice to listen to and some new ideas, the fans need something different to look forward to and Saturday afternoon.

So for me, it's thanks for what you did for us and dragging us out of the annual relegation battles but it's time to move on for our sake and yours.

Is it because when they had their 'finished 17th' season they were sacked, or is it because they failed to convince their chairman that they had long term potential by massively improving after that (I remember that season being one were we were never really in the running for relegation, we faded badly at the end of the season) and consistently doing so for 7-8 years with no sign of that changing soon?

Everton probably couldn't afford to sack Moyes at that point, so maybe this point is moot, but keeping him on revolutionised our club and gave us our respect back. The partnership between Chairman & manager has worked. Kenwright picked his man and clearly planned long term, and he should do so again if Moyes leaves as we do not have the wherewithall to hire & fire managers, their staff or players every other season, stability is crucial. Moyes probably has recommendations for who his successor should be - lower league, grafter, learner, tough.

And 20% of the club owned by its supporters.

Stadium was part of a retail enabling development if I remember rightly. I'm personally not against that if it can make a suitable stadium happen, just the location has to be right which it wasn't last time.

Just listen to the interview and you'll realise there's not a lot going on inside his head... this is the same man who gave his full weight behind the Tesco's move.

I'm afraid your robotic reading from a script supplied by Kenwright doesn't convince me. It is time for Moyes to move on at the end of the season.

But what about the squad he will leave us with? The average age is over 30, the next manager will have to sell just to refresh these older players.

Howard,Neville, Distin, Osman, Pienaar, Hibbert - all first team regulars coming to the end of their careers.

Our youth policy seems to have failed miserably, we had Rodwell, who was mostly sub, Anichebe will only ever be a fringe player, and now Barkley is loaned rather than given his chance. This is probably down to the board living day to day, they can't see past the next cheque from Sky.

If he does go, his legacy will be a huge wage bill, and one of the oldest squads in the League - not as miraculous as some would have us believe.

I suppose the bottom line is the trophy Swansea will win next month.

Also, it may be worth considering Moyes has had more than 40 attempts to win away games against the so called big 4. Laudrup has beaten Arsenal and Liverpool away this season, albeit one was a cup game.

Absolutely got it in a nutshell.

I also love Andrew's vague 'solution:'

"Something different."

Andrew, a few things you deliberately omitted: Moyes has overseen the most consistent league returns in a generation. thus, from "stagnating," he has turned the ACTUAL Stygian gloom of the Smith era into the optimism now felt by the fanbase; and that far from the "safety-first attitude," you claim, he has in fact propelled his own win-ratio into the top 5 of all-time Everton managers.

There's nobody in this world who is perfect. And that goes for football managers. So Moyes, like all other managers, has his faults perhaps. But for me, over the last 10 years, and for the moment, his strengths and record outweigh any faults.

I don’t know, maybe we both see the same picture but differ in our attitude to risk and return. I respect that you make a half decent argument in respect of ambition, and am partial to the romance of your “one day as a lion reasoning” but, if the cost of living one day as a lion is 100 years a lamb in the lower ranks of the EPL or worst (i.e Leeds) then that is a hefty price to pay.

Better I feel to live in the meantime as a jaguar, and sneak up from the lions from behind. For sure we must someday pounce, maybe you are right in think that time is now – I honestly doubt it, but neither do I know for sure.
If the issue had risen a few years back, I would be more sympathetic to what you are saying, its just watching this seasons, are possession and movement of the ball has at time appeared to indeed embody the grace of a cat on the prowl… and that extends my patience a little further.

I will agree with you on Swansea and Bradford when they crack the top 4 of the EPL, until then – with all due respect to those teams – even a broken clock tells the correct time twice a day. I honestly not mean to belittle their achievements, by saying that, I am just saying, consistency would be the real proof of what you are claiming.... eg, Pardew at Newcastle this year compared to last.

Anyway, whatever is to be is to be – I hope he stays, but if he leaves, I hope deeply that the romance of your ambition trumps my cold statistical approach.

I appreciate Moyes has been hamstrung by events beyond his control, but also you can't blame the board for the negative football we have all been forced to witness on too many occasions. Holloway has been a popular name on here as a replacement over that last couple of years and, whilst I think he would be in way over his head and maybe even be the new Mike Walker, at least he would prove that you don't need an Arab billionaire backing you to get out there and have a go, never mind who the opposition is.

Brent, apologies: you are right, not all Evertonians do. But I would love to have a proper survey done and see how what percentage of regular match goers agree with me and how many Soccer Saturday viewers agree with the media version of Moyes.

I like Laudrup and would like to see him here if/when Moyes goes, but he is doing the exact same thing that Moyes does, keeps if tight against the perceived better teams and trying to play nice footy against the others. It's nothing different to what Moyes does, he just may choose different personnel....but he wouldn't have much choice for change.

He probably knows that the lack of silverware is the biggest blot on his copy book, but he must want top 4, champions league and the extra money that he would surely get to compete. He more than anyone knows how much, if at all he can trust the board, of which his big chum Kenright is spokesman. It must be playing on his mind!! One FA cup winner on his CV would surely propel him up the merry go round rankings.

I agree with what Kevin tully said about Swansea. There is a well run admirable club.