Can Moyes really be considered a Goodison great if he leaves without wining a trophy?

, The Mirror , 25 February, 33comments  |  Jump to most recent
It can't be denied that Moyes is a fine manager and has done well at Everton. But can he be classed as one of the Blues' great managers? David Anderson reckons the poverty card doesn't excuse the empty trophy cabinet.

» Read the full article at The Mirror



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Paul Ellam
1 Posted 25/02/2013 at 15:39:54
I like Moyes, I think generally he has done a decent job at the club, he pulled us from the gutter and has made us a very good side overall. He needs a lot more support from the board though!
To be remembered as a Goodison great however, he has to have won at least one trophy, to have had some level of success.
I am an old fashioned type supporter who believes that success is measured by trophies, not league positions (Ironically when we finished 4th in 1988 under Colin Harvey it was deemed a huge failure - nowadays he would be applauded for it!)
After seeing what Swansea have just done I think that the club has got to put more effort into winning cups. The league is beyond us (and 95% of clubs) so why not go for the FA cup and also the League cup with more determination?
If the club was to win any of those there would be a lot less disappointment flying about that's for sure.
Paul David
2 Posted 25/02/2013 at 15:50:57
Short answer, no.
Nick Entwistle
3 Posted 25/02/2013 at 15:45:24
Can any manager be called a great in this day and age unless they are in the elite set of clubs that do win the trophies? And by that the trophies that only matter if you are in that elite, where a league cup or FA cup are way down the list.

Far be it from me though not to call McLeish, McClaren, Redknapp and Laudrup as greats. Maybe they are. Mind you Redknapp won his on a Leeds style busines model.

This was another article where it fails to recognise the massive two tier system in the Premier League, and comparing histories with Catterick and Kendell is pointless in this day and age.

If you're not in with the big clubs then you're picking up the scraps. And with that, Everton and Moyes have done better than anyone else.

Also, I'd say that Ferguson pikcing up a title this year is because he beat 2 other teams, not 19. Its no different to Celtic v Ranger or Barca Madrid... there only happens to be 2 other serious teams. City and Chelsea. Then Arsenal, Spurs.... then the rest of us.

So no, its not an era for greats, just great balance sheets cherry picking the best players that other teams can't have.

Paul David
4 Posted 25/02/2013 at 15:58:46
Nick

I don't think you need to win things to be considered a great. Dario Gradi, I imagine would be considered great by Crewe fans. For the most part he kept Crewe higher than they should have been, brought through countless kids and played football.

Most people recognise you need money to consistently challenge for trophies. If we had the same league finishes over the last 11 years but achieved them by playing football and a 'go for it' attitude then maybe he could be considered a great.

Nick Entwistle
5 Posted 25/02/2013 at 16:12:43
At Everton you do.
Nick Entwistle
6 Posted 25/02/2013 at 16:13:41
Wait so an exact same record but playing like say Keegan at Newcastle he'd be considered a great, but with his style he gets called to get the fuck out of town at every opportunity?
Phil Walling
7 Posted 25/02/2013 at 15:58:13
Now 57, I was only a nipper when Catterick claimed the old First Division Championship in 1963 and 1970 but me owld fella always swears he was a genius although he always adds `and a miserable bugger to boot`... So, looking through his 60s record, I`m inclined to afford him `greatness`.

I have no doubt that Howard Kendall Mk 1 was truly great although he was denied the opportunity of immortality by circumstances we are all aware of. In comparison with these two, Moyes is no more than `a safe pair of hands`. He has kept us in the Prem and BK in a job. I thank him for the former and curse him for the latter!

James Stewart
8 Posted 25/02/2013 at 16:17:50
A great no. But on the whole a success. The team he inherited was far worse than the team he will leave us with. Royle was the last great simply because he gave us a trophy with a very average side. Moyes has had chances to emulate this but on the big occasions come up short. The final again Chelsea and the Semi against the RS obvious examples.
John Shaw
9 Posted 25/02/2013 at 16:15:08
The trouble is, in my opinion, that we the fans and David Moyes aspire to win things, however the Board and it's useless incumbents don't share those aspirations, they are happy to just plod along, like a Stoke, or a Norwich.

Until we have a different Board, which has genuine ambition, nothing will change.

And no, Moyes, for all his positives, can not be considered an Everton great.

Brian Harrison
10 Posted 25/02/2013 at 16:08:25
I think the word 'great' is vastly overused; what criteria do we base the word 'great' on? I think Moyes has been a good manager but I don't think he could be called 'great'. I think the truly great managers win trophies although in most cases they are the managers who have had most to spend in the transfer market.

My own personal favourite managers are obviously Catterick and Kendall also Clough, Paisley, Nicholson, Shankly and Revie.

I think from this list my choice as the best is Brian Clough. He won back-to-back European Cups with Nottingham Forest and they weren't the biggest club in terms of finance, also to win the league with Derby County was exceptional; most of that team were made up of cast-offs from other clubs. The fact that Clough or Paisley were not given the chance to manage England is unbelievable.

Paul David
11 Posted 25/02/2013 at 16:19:22
Which would you prefer, finish 6/7th by winning 1 - 0 and being bored or finishing 6/7th by winning 5 - 2 and being entertained?

I can't stand Moyes but I've no problem were we have finished in the league under him, it is about the best we can hope for without money.

It's his attitude, tactics and generally being bored off my tits while watching his teams I can't stand. If he had a pair of balls, I'd still be one of his biggest supporters, like I used to be.

Brian Waring
12 Posted 25/02/2013 at 16:31:32
A good manager, but will never be in the halls of a goodison great though.
Nick Entwistle
13 Posted 25/02/2013 at 16:31:01
If you're finishing 6th 7th and scoring plenty, it would also mean you're leaky as a sieve. You think all the 5-2 wins would be coupled with 1-0 losses?

Keegan's defence was a joke. Even at the top of the table. I'd also say George Graham is just as likely to be given god like status by Arsenal fans as Wegner.

Comes over a bit spoilt though Paul, you get as high as you say we can on this budget of ours, but you also want great football. Well sure, don't we all, but because you don't have that you want shot of the manager?

To coin a phrase from 90s comedy Fist of Fun - you want the moon on a stick!

Tony J Williams
14 Posted 25/02/2013 at 16:46:07
Simply put - No

Need to win stuff to be considered a great.

Paul David
15 Posted 25/02/2013 at 16:38:50
Nick

I could cope with the odd heavy defeat as long as I knew we'd give it a go and I knew that next week we'd probably give someone else a hiding. I don't want shut of the manager cos we don't play great football every week, i'm aware thats impossible but he doesn't even try. The football played at the end of last season and beginning of this is a very small part of his 11 years, over all we've had to watch crap.

When Moyes took over it didn't bother me cos I knew the most important thing was to improve results but then over time when he had put together a good team with players of a higher quality, he seemed to off set this by becoming more and more negative. I believe when someone works all week and spends his money on watching a match he should be entertained, not always possible but when people go to Goodison they know theres not much chance of saying the words "that was a great game" by the time the game is finished.

The main reason I want him gone and I think deserved the sack was sacrificing the Anfield Derby for the sake of a home tie against the mighty Sunderland.

Denis Richardson
16 Posted 25/02/2013 at 16:39:45
Football is about winning trophies and entertaining the fans. Achieve one or both of these and the fans will have fond memories to enjoy for years to come and will pass on these moments to junior generations.

On the first point Moyes has obviously not succeeded (doesn't matter why) and on the second point, we have in general been served some pretty shite football over the 11 year period. Granted there were a few purple patches along the way and some memorable european nights, but on the whole we've been very poor to watch.

I still shudder at the 4-6-0 formation days (west ham away Dec 2010!), not managing a single shot on target in home games to the likes of Bolton & Stoke, the endless Cahill/Saha partnership that managed 1 league goal in 16 starts, the poor cup runs, scoring one league goal in the first 8 games of the 05/06 season, the numerous (unexplained) poor starts to the season, etc. Obviously there were positives too over the peiod, but far too many negatives.

Moyes is a good but limited manager. Everton great? No, long way to go on that front.

Fast forward 20 years from now and I cannot imagine any fans waxing lyrical about the generally dull Everton sides of the noughties that consistently finished in the top half, playing defensive football (often with no strikers) and winning the f'all.

Saying that though, we fans are very fickle - win the FA Cup this year and there'll be a whole different story to tell.......trophies moyes, that's what we want..

Tony J Williams
17 Posted 25/02/2013 at 17:05:43
"I could cope with the odd heavy defeat as long as I knew we'd give it a go and I knew that next week we'd probably give someone else a hiding" - You would be in the minority then Paul, there would be hell on here after a heavy defeat to anyone.
Steve Sweeney
18 Posted 25/02/2013 at 17:02:23
He cannot even be considered as a great. What has he achieved over his 11-year tenure?

Surely during that time we should have 3 or 4 24/25-year-old someones who have been brought through by a great manager? Fergie did it with Beckham, Giggs, Scholes and the Nevilles and built a world class team around them.

What will Moyes's legacy be to Everton Football Club, Memories of what could have been. Come on Rounders This time Next year we could win the Champions League, so don't be a plonker!

The one thing I will never forgive him for apart from the capitulation to the RS at Wembley is his utter support for that slimeball BK.

Kevin Hudson
19 Posted 25/02/2013 at 17:15:29
I don't regard him as a great myself, but I appreciate his service to the club.
Wayne Smyth
20 Posted 25/02/2013 at 17:18:53
Nick, I think the problem many people have with Moyes is not the end result, but the manner in which the result is achieved.

I wouldn't lose too much sleep if we go to old trafford or stamford bridge, give it a real go and come away with a loss because they had a bit too much quality. I don't expect the guy to perform miracles.

But when people see the kind of spineless performance and tactics we witnessed so recently against teams which are financially worse off than us, on a regular basis then they have every right to feel aggrieved.

People talk about the board having no ambition. For me, Moyes has no ambition or belief in this squad. To win something you need to risk something. Moyes isn't a risk-taker and for me that is his main character flaw which will prevent him from ever winning anything with us.

You can denigrate the achievements of Laudrup and other managers who've won titles, but swansea were playing lower league football not so long ago and now are established in the premier league, don't look out of place, play good football, have won a major trophy and will be playing in europe next season. They even lost their best player in the summer. Would I give a 7th place finish for a trophy and europe? You bet I would. Whats the point of finishing 7th each year and winning fuck all? I remember Joe Royles FA Cup winning team. Amokachi against spurs and the final with Rideouts goal. I remember that nearly 20 years on. I don't remember much about the season we finished 8th though.

Vince Furnier
21 Posted 25/02/2013 at 17:44:09
Laudrup is greater than Moyes.
Barry Rathbone
22 Posted 25/02/2013 at 17:52:18
If the new guy comes in and does a Laudrup Moyes time will be that of Ian Duncan Smith leading the Tories - a footnote.
Kieran Fitzgerald
23 Posted 25/02/2013 at 18:34:29
He has had eleven years to grow a set and go all out in cup semi finals and a final. Yet he's never managed it. If you are banging your head year in year out on the glass ceiling in the PL, then take more of a chance in the cups.

I know that he has carried the club in other ways and I really appreciate him for that, but the nuts and bolts of his job is winning games. Any proper success on the pitch, even if it is in the cups, would take the pressure off the guy off the pitch. It would raise the club's profile and would also increase revenue through prize money and merchandise. Fans will buy any type of merchandise on the back of success, I know would.

Paul Ellam
24 Posted 25/02/2013 at 19:26:55
Kieran #582 You are correct. I have said the same for a few years now.
We have no chance of winning the league (just like 95% of other teams) so why not go for the cups?
If we won a cup here or there we would still be considered successful, whereas we are just known for being a plucky club who overachieve.
10th in the league and a cup win will do me most years - particularly in the current climate of oligarchs and consortiums. Until we get our own rich chairman I think the cups are our best bet for glory and happiness.
Ross Kerry
25 Posted 25/02/2013 at 19:39:36
Nothing but the best will suffice.

No.

Ian Bennett
26 Posted 25/02/2013 at 19:57:47
My answer is no, good but not great.

Does it work with players? Was arteta, Cahill seen as a great?

Ian Allaker
27 Posted 25/02/2013 at 20:07:17
I think if he managed in a different era he would have been a great manager and won plenty, but in todays game, so far he can only be seen as a very good manager, the best of the rest. In time I think he will prove himself to be a great manager but it will be with another club.
Guy Hastings
28 Posted 25/02/2013 at 20:03:55
Goodison great - jury's out. But in his tenure (I won't say 'reign') who would you calss as a Goodison 'great'? A carpenter is only as good his tools. And anyone who comes up with ''tool fer ner fer ner' should be ashamed of themselves.
Richard Whittall
29 Posted 25/02/2013 at 20:40:09
In my opinion Moyes will only ever be considered a good manager at Everton and never a great. He steadied the ship and has given us an average finish of around 7th but that's probably our natural position in English football in 2013. I like the guy but he hasn't over-achieved as the media would have you believe — he has underachieved.

He is a victim of being over cautious. Instead of going for the kill he reverts to his default setting of trying not to lose and this is his greatest failing and the reason he won't manage a bigger club than us. In 29 years of supporting the blues I wouldn't even rate him as high as Colin Harvey unless he wins that elusive trophy. Even then, he would still rank behind Kendall and Royle. (Did Royle even lose a derby in his 3 years here?? And that was against a far superior Reds side than Moyes has ever faced!!).

Moyes could still redeem himself, but it would take a lot. He needs to do at least two of the following:-

1. Win a trophy
2. Send out a team to twat Liverpool. (like Royle would have)
3. Admit BK is lying about the club being up for sale!
4. Stop picking the same 12/13 players and then complaining about fatigue. (Use some of the youngsters, if your not going to then don't moan about the size of your squad.)
5. Take both cups seriously. (You have only started taking the FA Cup seriously in the last 4 years; not good enough!)

However, I don't think two of the above will be achieved.

Wayne Smyth
30 Posted 25/02/2013 at 21:06:01
Ian, the only club I can see Moyes winning things at is Celtic... and that is only because it's a one-horse race.

I will be utterly shocked if any of the more moneyed clubs in England touch him with a barge pole. I think Everton will be the pinnacle of his management career.

Dennis Stevens
31 Posted 26/02/2013 at 06:29:01
I suppose if you rank them in terms of remuneration, Moyes would be the top Everton manager. After all, he's probably been paid more than all the others put together.
Kieran Fitzgerald
32 Posted 26/02/2013 at 10:59:03
Not a hope of him going to a club like Man Utd or Chelsea. Not enough European experience, not enough variation in his tactics, too cautious, never consistent over a full season, never dealt with the big egos, doesn't do squad rotation properly.

If you look at the likes of Spurs and Newcastle, not even clubs at their level have ever been rumoured to be interested in him when they have changed manager.

I don't accept that the financial constraints he has worked under can be used as a counter argument. With all of the above in mind, I don't think that he would be trusted with a transfer kitty of forty or fifty million, let alone an open cheque book.

Andrew Zimmerman
33 Posted 26/02/2013 at 21:45:45
#800: "With all of the above in mind, I don't think that he would be trusted with a transfer kitty of forty or fifty million, let alone an open cheque book."

I beg to differ. When you look at the likes of Mark Hughes who was foolishly trusted with a large transfer budget (twice mind you.. with City and QPR), why wouldn't a manager such as Moyes, who has done brilliantly with a small budget, be given a chance at a big club. And no, sorry.. we at Everton are not a big club.

It amazes me how how shallow minded some people are. So if Moyes and Everton go on to win the FA Cup this year and then he goes on to leave in the summer, you will all then accept him as "great". That's rubbish.. you have to look at the whole body of work. And he has dragged us from the slums of relegation fodder to a solid top half of the table finisher on a consistent basis. That is, in fact, brilliant. In my mind, Moyes will always be remembered as an Everton great. Perhaps he will be remembered as such by more of you in the future when we are slumming at the bottom half of the table. Then you can remember the "glory days" of Moyes.

634: "He steadied the ship and has given us an average finish of around 7th but that's probably our natural position in English football in 2013. I like the guy but he hasn't over-achieved as the media would have you believe — he has underachieved."

Oh, you don't say? Everton have a "natural position around 7th in English football in 2013"? And why is that the case? Because Moyes has built the club to that standard.


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