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The Rumour Mill

Martinez in for St Etienne striker

29/06/2013 | Comments (84)
Everton will rival Newcastle for £15m-rated St Etienne striker Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang, according to The Mirror.

The report also suggests that the 24-year-old Gabon international is being tracked by cash-rich Russian club Anzhi Makhachkala as well.

Original Source: The Mirror  Rumour source ranking:
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Reader Comments

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Steve Edwards
535 Posted 29/06/2013 at 00:46:31
Oh we'll, that's that then. It's hardly worth putting up on here.
Derek Knox
536 Posted 29/06/2013 at 00:50:04
Never heard of him! I saw a picture of someone in a Spiderman mask ------- don't tell me! It could be his granny! £15m is some-one having a laugh!
Sam Hoare
537 Posted 29/06/2013 at 01:02:53
No joke Derek. This lad looks like a seriously good striker in the Thierry Henry mold. If we are in for him then its good news though I would be surprised if the figure us as high as £15m. More like £10-12m.
Phil Davies
545 Posted 29/06/2013 at 01:56:21
£15 million pound could buy us a new young goalkeeper, a backup centre back, Honda and Redmond, I don't see why so many people are writing off Jelavic, he's a striker that doesn't do much outside of the box yet Moyes had him running the wings.
Peter Warren
552 Posted 29/06/2013 at 06:30:18
It's weird with Everton I get more concerned with getting linked and believing we're going to sign Alcatraz, Honda, Redmond and a striker for £22m than I do with Fellaini and Baines being linked with a move away.

I think it's because if we did sign all these we would have a real good side but I just don't believe we will!!!!!! Objectively I suppose with TV money this outlay is peanuts but surely this is all a load of bollocks with our board?

Colin Dalton
555 Posted 29/06/2013 at 07:59:57
Phil Davies agree with you completely Moyes destroyed Jelavic with his style of play, think a bit of real football will help him out a lot and this season we might get what we were expecting 12 months ago!
Colin Glassar
562 Posted 29/06/2013 at 08:33:50
I also think Jelavic will come good again under Martinez. Ginger didn't have a clue when it came to strikers. I can see him ruining RVP.
Paul Andrews
572 Posted 29/06/2013 at 09:20:40
Jelavic is guaranteed to score more goals this season than last season. Moyes had Jelavic chasing full backs down, and running into corners.

Keep him the width of the 18-yard box, no wider, and he will get back to scoring. You don't lose that instinctive, one-touch finishing ability if you are played in the correct way.

Adam Luszniak
577 Posted 29/06/2013 at 10:03:21
People still bashing that "Moyes ruins strikers" line. What's more likely, RVP just simply stops scoring now under Moyes, or he carries on being the most prolific striker in the league?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if Martinez suddenly turned Jelly into a 15 goals a season fella, but I find this just as unlikely. Yes, I'm sure Martinez will a play a different system to Moyes's, but how many times last season where you screaming at Jelly to shoot only for him to fluff his lines and fall over the ball?

Only time will tell on both I guess.

Wayne Smyth
581 Posted 29/06/2013 at 10:10:13
Adam, it's called lack of confidence. Jelavic didn't get that many chances last season, but the ones he did get were missed, as you point out. However, by that time, the guy was bereft of confidence, with a lot of pressure to perform.

I suspect that, with footballers playing at this level, they don't think about what they need to do; much of it is instinct. Moyes is well known for over-coaching players and sending them out with vast sets of instructions (Arteta admitted as much). When you start trying to change the natural behaviour of players at their peak, I can imagine it would fuck up their performances.

Aubameyang looks some player, but I can't see us being able to financially compete with some of the other clubs in for him. £15M is expensive for us, but would still be good value if we could get him at that price.

Personally I think a more likely route is to be picking up players around the £5M mark. Huddlestone is apparently available at that kind of price according to the rags, and I think he'd be a quality, cheaper replacement should Fellaini jump ship, giving us some decent cash to invest elsewhere.

Sam Hoare
583 Posted 29/06/2013 at 10:27:19
Wayne, I'm not convinced that Jelavic will rediscover his form. The stats show that all this running the channels stuff is nonsense and Jelavic was playing very similarly in terms of where he had touches and shots from as in his his first 6 months. In just not convinced his all round game is good enough.

I hope I'm proved wrong but I think if we get this lad he could be an absolutely tremendous signing. Probably all rag rubbish though.

As for Huddlestone, I see him much more as a Gibson type player than a Fellaini replacement. Has Capoue left Toulouse? He looks quality to me.

Andrew Ellams
585 Posted 29/06/2013 at 10:52:43
I'm not sure Jelavic is a Martinez sort of player. The style of play suits a striker that can run at pace from deep – like a Lokaku type.
Paul Andrews
586 Posted 29/06/2013 at 10:54:46
What stats are they, Sam?

Can you post a link?
Brian Waring
592 Posted 29/06/2013 at 10:59:26
Sam, watching Jelavic last season, he spent most of the game pulling out wide, dropping deep looking for the ball, completely different to the player banging them in when he first came. I remember Moyes saying Jelavic needs to 'work harder' something Moyes expected from all the strikers under him.
Jay Harris
593 Posted 29/06/2013 at 10:59:01
You don't need stats to know Jelavic was a totally different proposition last season.

As for this "Moyes ruining strikers" bullshit, there are no luxury forwards at the top end of the Prem, they all have to work hard and close defenders down when not in possession.

I suppose Moyes also coached him to fluff chances from 6 yards out as well.

Jelavic totally lost form and confidence — that's all there is to it.

Barry Rathbone
595 Posted 29/06/2013 at 11:11:28
If RVP falls away the only place Moyes will find excuses is here.

United fans won't be blaming the board, the weather or the price of fish.

Quite happy to see how Jela gets on with a forward rather than defensive coach.

Brian Waring
596 Posted 29/06/2013 at 11:20:58
It will be interesting Barry what the excuses will be if Jelavic starts banging them in again under Martinez.
Aidy Dews
597 Posted 29/06/2013 at 11:27:19
Everton can't win, can they? We get linked to likes of Kone & McGeady and fans moan, and now we get linked to a good striker and we still moan! Haha, never satisfied.

I don't believe for one second this lad is valued at £15M. He's really good, don't get me wrong, but he's only really come to the fore in the past 2 years at St Etienne.

He didn't make the grade at AC Milan and had to go to France to show his quality, and he as got bundles of it, but I think you'll be looking at more like £10M for Aubameyang IMO.

The thing is, deals like these (Aubameyang's & Fer's) will only happen when or if we sell the likes of Baines & Fellaini, I believe. I cant see us having a £15M transfer kitty – and we definitely wouldn't blow all or most of it on one player!

Chris James
598 Posted 29/06/2013 at 10:53:49
And the Moyes bashing continues... I really can't wait to see what happens when Martinez loses a few games or we slip out of the top 6.

Let's just for one second imagine Moyes's intention wasn't to sabotage strikers, and go back to facts. Last year, the current team (assuming we hang onto most of them) played largely attacking football and created a great many chances (I think we were in the top 4 chance creators over the season and were actually number 1 for the first half, up to the end of December).

Our defensive record was the 4th best in the league with just 40 conceded, we'd have been 3rd if we'd avoided defeat or won at Chelsea. However, our goals scored was only 7th best, 11 short of Spurs and City, 16 short of Liverpool and only 2 better than West Brom.

In summary then, tight defence, attacking football, lots of chances but not a lot of goals scored. The obvious conclusion is that our forward line needs improving.

Look at the attacking players and the case seems even clearer – our top league scorer was Fellaini (played advanced but still mainly as a midfielder) with 11, with Mirallas, Baines, Pienaar and Osman all contributing a respectable 5 or 6 goals to the cause alongside an equally fair number of assists each (6 or 7 in most cases, 4 with Osman).

Look at our registered forwards, however, and the output is far less impressive. Lead man Jelavic notched just 7 goals in the league, just one more than understudy Anichebe with 6, and habitual sub Naismith weighed in with 4.

Now ideally you'd be looking for 14-20 goals from a lead striker (12 players from 11 teams achieved this elsewhere last season); in our case, our entire 4-man forward roster (Jelly, Vic, Vellios and Naismith) chipped in just 17 between them, compared to 29 from midfield and 8 from defence.

Granted the strikers didn't play as much gametime (with 58 starts and 41 subs), a fair bit of time was played with one up front, and Naismith was often subbed in out-wide. However, the point remains, if we'd had even one 14+ goal striker (i.e. Jelly pitching in just another 7 goals) and in doing so changed 4 or 5 of our 15 draws into wins, we could be having a laugh in the Champions League now.

All of which is I guess a very long-winded way of saying...'It's about the forwards stupid'. Doubly so, if we let Fellaini go.

Anto Byrne
600 Posted 29/06/2013 at 11:23:09
It's going to be a different Everton: we will win games and lose games by playing a different brand of footie. The 15 odd games we managed to draw last season was another Moyes milestone to add to his inability to win at any of the big boys in 11 years — the record number of defeats on the trot, the lowest points haul ever, lowest goals scored in a season... and we could go on, but for what end?

Moyes has gone, he now has money to burn and a huge grin on his face due to his £140k a week. He will be tapping up Baines and Fellaini, maybe Barkley and Osman. It's going to be interesting to see how the Ginger One shapes the Man Utd team and how he manages all those huge egos.

I for one am happy he has gone and can only look forward to Roberto bringing back joyous football to Everton. After 11 years of dull, uninspiring, one-dimensional ultra-defensive stuff, we can now open a new page of the Everton Football Club saga.

Jon Withey
603 Posted 29/06/2013 at 11:42:59
Always thought Fellaini was great for re-gaining and maintaining possession. Not sure Huddlestone can replace that.

In fact, with Neville gone too, who the heck is going to break up play. It's not Osman that's for sure.

Jim Knightley
604 Posted 29/06/2013 at 11:44:06
Aubemeyang is a real talent... although £15M is not representative imo... I think he would cost £12M max. He is comfortable through the middle, although from my experience, I think he is relatively better when played in a wide right position. Personally I'd go for Bony over him, but I would love to see him at the club. His versatility would be useful too.

And Jelavic was not ruined under Moyes... he was missing chances, and miscontrolling, when he should have been doing better. He was never as good as we saw in the six-month period after joining... and not as bad as he played last season. He is a 12-14 league goal a season kind of player... and I expect that's what we will see from him, if he is a regular, over the course of his Everton career.

Personally, I'd prefer more of a quicker physical presence as a lone strike, though.

Jim Knightley
608 Posted 29/06/2013 at 11:49:49
I'm also with Sam completely... Huddlestone is a Gibson-type player. He is a good passer off both feet... but really, he is not that incisive, and if we want to challenge for top four, or even top six/seven, he is not the kind of player we should be buying for our first 11. He is not a goalscorer either.

For all those calling Moyes a defensive coach... we scored the seventh highest amount of goals in the Premier Leagye last season, without a consistently scoring striker. It might be worth bearing that in mind when making comments about Jelavic improving under an attacking coach.

Colin Dalton
609 Posted 29/06/2013 at 11:46:11
You can't just blame forwards for the amount of draws last year, look at Fulham away just as one example: cruising at 2-1, Moyes brings on a third centre-half, invites pressure, and we concede. Stats aren't everything: even though he scored 12, we had our best midfielder up front last season!
Wayne Smyth
610 Posted 29/06/2013 at 11:47:50
Sam, I disagree about Jelavic's game not changing from the previous season. I have no "stats" to back this up, just all the games I watched.

It seems you may be in a minority thinking that he was operating in the same areas, so I'd be interested to see any stats you have to back up your position. From what I recall, he spent a lot of time out of the 18-yard area, and didn't get a vast amount of support or service.

I will agree that Jelavic all round game was poor. His hold-up play and strength for someone who is 6ft+ is laughable, falling over at every opportunity. Maybe this is something that can be coached out of him but, if we are to compete near the top of the league, we probably do need someone with more strength and pace.

Watching Anichebe in Europe a few seasons ago, I did wonder if he could be that player. He has the raw physical ingredients to be a top centre-forward. With a new coach in charge with a completely different mentality to the last one, perhaps we might see some very average players like Anichebe step up their game and reach their potential. To be fair some of his performances in the league last season were more than I thought he was capable of, as he seems to be finally maturing mentally.

Paul Andrews
611 Posted 29/06/2013 at 11:58:32
Jelavic will 100% definitely score more goals next season than this.
Jim Knightley
612 Posted 29/06/2013 at 11:59:32
Colin, do you mean that Fulham game where we conceded because Coleman inexplicably gave the ball away, because we were trying to score a third when we should have been defending? That Fulham game in which we missed a host of chances....

Unless I'm thinking of the wrong match, you've picked a horrific example there mate.

Wayne Smyth
613 Posted 29/06/2013 at 12:00:06
Jim, Huddlestone is a Gibson-type player. He's a midfielder, as is Fellaini.

Either we can keep to the Moyes's method of playing tall powerful midfielders in attack, playing long balls up to them and bypassing the centre. Or we can play attackers in attack and play through the midfield, using pace and guile to break through rather than physical power and percentage football.

Personally, if we're going with one striker, I see Barkley as the long-term successor to play in the hole. Mirallas would also be a good choice. If you've seen any of the U20 games, Barkley does a sterling job there and it suits his style of play and his abilities, as well as meaning we're unlikely to suffer from his occasional poor choice of ball losing us possession in dangerous areas.

What I'd like to see in the centre are two solid midfield players. For years we've had to make do with flawed players like Osman, Neville, Cahill and Heitinga and it has hurt the team because we were always carrying someone.

A midfield two of Gibson and Huddlestone or Gibson and Fellaini would be solid. They are all complete midfield players who have all the attributes to play there and would dominate most teams, allowing the quicker, more creative forwards to do their jobs.

Jim Knightley
614 Posted 29/06/2013 at 12:09:09
Wayne... Huddlestone is as flawed as Osman is. Given a likely more attacking style next season, I'd prefer a more defensive minded midfielder... and Huddlestone is not an effective tackler. Real used Khedira... Barca use Busquets... Bayern use Martinez. If we play a 4-2-3-1 (although I'm afraid we will play a 3-5-2) we need a more defensively minded DM, to allow others to attack.

Huddlestone is limited... he can spray a pass around, but he is not incisive. He is not a good defensive player either, nor a goal scorer... and has a very poor injury record. In the last three seasons he has made a combined 30 Premier League appearances... and I have no idea why we are even discussing him as a potential buy.

If we are not only going to buy a traditional tackling DM, I'd prefer a box-to-box midfielder who can do both... a role Fellaini could occupy, or Leroy Fer.

David Hallwood
615 Posted 29/06/2013 at 12:12:18
Some good points on the thread, which thankfully veered off from the silly (close)season, where we're linked with everyone from Messi to Ghandi via Mary Poppins. I say this every transfer window; until they are pictured holding up the shirt expressing undying love for the team they supported as a boy growing up in Chile/Kracow/Wherever-don't believe the hype.
Jon Withey
619 Posted 29/06/2013 at 12:31:08
A midfield of Huddlestone and Gibson would be as leaky as they come, they are very similar tbh, nice range of passing etc.

Harold Matthews
620 Posted 29/06/2013 at 12:13:07
Have to agree with Joe Royle. A goal scoring striker is top priority.

Jelavic tries his heart out and definitely suffered a huge lack of confidence but is he the answer? That I'm not too sure about. His terrific anticipation takes him to the right places but his oh so ponderous leg speed lets him down.

For me, other priorities are a midfield tiger and a keeper to challenge Howard.

I definitely don't want teenagers. We've more than enough already.

Ross Edwards
622 Posted 29/06/2013 at 12:53:56
Excellent. Well, we've missed out of the next Drogba, Bony, but we could be in for the next Henry. Va Va Voom!
Sam Hoare
624 Posted 29/06/2013 at 12:58:12
Wayne, Paul Andrews, I read a really good article on it that was backed up by proper objective analysis. I think it was Executioner's Bong...
Chris James
625 Posted 29/06/2013 at 12:59:15
The fact that anyone can blame Moyes RE: the Fulham game is absolutely ludicrous and points to the myopic MOYB attitude that's reigned here for so long.

We totally dominated that game, absolutely battered them second half and could have easily scored 5 or 6 if our finishing had been up to snuff.

We were so dominant the Fulham fan sat next to me actually said 'how the hell did we get anything out of that' at the final whistle and thought we'd been the best attacking team he'd seen at Craven Cottage for years.

Chris James
626 Posted 29/06/2013 at 13:04:27
One other point is that are we sure we've missed out on Bony?

From SSN:
Vitesse have issued a statement, saying that no agreement is in place with any club - including Swansea.

"Various media have reported that Wilfried Bony is to transfer to Premier League club Swansea City. This message is incorrect," said the statement.

"There is admittedly much interest in the striker, the top scorer in the Eredivisie last season, and Swansea City are one of the interested clubs. However, a transfer is not the case."

Doesn't sound like a done deal to me. Also the comments on Sky stress that a number of players have looked awesome in Holland and failed to replicate that in tougher leagues.

Brian Waring
627 Posted 29/06/2013 at 13:06:01
Chris (#598) and the Moyes apologists continue too..............
Paul Andrews
628 Posted 29/06/2013 at 13:18:47
Sam,

To be honest, mate, stats do my head in. I prefer to watch the game and make my own mind up.

Ross Edwards
629 Posted 29/06/2013 at 13:15:36
Chris James

Sorry to hurt your feelings as it seems you keep going on about Moyes, but he is a tactically inept, dithering, deceitful turncoat.

And to think he was virtually worshiped by the Moyesists for being loyal and dignified, yet he seems quite happy to collect a month's wages for no work and bid for a player he still officially works with until Monday.

God, we gave him a rousing reception after West Ham that made him look like Ferguson now look at him, he has treated us like dirt at the end of his shoe by accepting a month's pay for nothing and trying to sign our best player when he said that he wouldn't.

So much for wishing the club well. Good riddence to the man.

Sam Hoare
630 Posted 29/06/2013 at 13:23:03
Ross, are you still a bit angry that you have been made to look silly by Man U appointing Moyes? Let it go.
Ross Edwards
633 Posted 29/06/2013 at 13:25:57
Me look silly? He has made Everton Football Club look silly Sam, not me, whose views in the grand scheme of things are completely insignificant compared to the great club we all love.

I'm not angry with him leaving, I'm angry with the way he has treated us, that's all.

Sam Hoare
634 Posted 29/06/2013 at 13:30:15
I'm afraid I don't see it, Ross. The only people I have heard saying we look silly are Everton fans, usually ones with an axe to grind.

As for the last month and Baines, it's holiday time so all footballers are being paid to do nothing and Man Utd would have bid for Baines whoever was manager. All I see is a lot of misplaced anger.

Patrick Murphy
637 Posted 29/06/2013 at 13:37:29
I don't believe that it was the Fulham game itself that people should focus on but the reaction to that game, one of our most costly runs came on the back of that and only last gasp goals against Spurs and Sunderland saved it from being a totally disastrous reaction. David Moyes reverted back to his tried and trusted methods for a couple of months and it cost us more points than it gained

As for the rights and wrongs of him bidding for Baines, ask Mr Kenwright what he thinks, I bet you he is more upset than we are as he trusts DM implicitly.

Roman Sidey
648 Posted 29/06/2013 at 13:28:46
People harp on about how we created so many chances for goals last season, but no-one even bothers to be honest about the quality of those chances.

In the first half of the season, we were doing pretty well, but I'd go on record as saying in the second half of the season we were lucky to get more than three or four actual decent chances per game. Baines's assists dried up as his corners and crosses turned to shite; Pienaar was a disgrace for 90% of the last half, and Coleman only managed to get a handful of crosses in anyway.

It's all well and good to say the strikers had chances but, for the most part, they were extremely desperate situations – situations that happen a whole lot faster at ground level than they look from the stands or from a screen. I saw a lot of the chances Jelavic missed, and could put a lot of them down to the delivery being the wrong side of average, as well as him being knackered for most of the season, trying to get onto a ball in the space of half a second.

I'm not absolving him of all blame; he should have scored more... but it wasn't all down to him. I'll put money on Jelavic scoring five more this season and RVP scoring five less.

Al Philby
651 Posted 29/06/2013 at 14:13:17
No striker in the PL missed as many clear cut chances as Jelavic. I have seen him misfire shots on open goal and one on one with the goalie he has been tracked down and intercepted by defenders who were ten yards behind him. Jelavic is inefficient and he is too bloody slow.

"31% of Nikica Jelavic’s shots came from clear cut chances during the 2012-13 season, which was a higher percentage than any of the other players in this comparison. 30% of Papiss Cisse’s shots came from clear cut chances, 27% of Victor Anichebe’s shots and 26% of Hugo Rodallega’s shots came from clear cut chances."

http://www.eplindex.com/33893/worst-strikers-front-goal-1213-stats-analysis.html

Wayne Smyth
656 Posted 29/06/2013 at 14:20:41
Jon (#619), I see Huddlestone as a physically stronger version of Osman. Both are technically very good, but Huddlestone will not get muscled off the ball like Osman so often does.

The major downside to him is his recent history of injuries. I think he was out for a year or so with ankle problems, but that looks to be behind him. He's been available for most of the second half of this season, but has struggled behind Parker and Dembele as far as I know.

I don't agree that a midfield with Gibson and Huddlestone would be leaky. They would certainly be a better combo than Gibson + Osman, Heitinga, Neville or Barkley. I'm not sure where else you get someone with his proven Premier League ability for £5M. I can see him becoming an England regular too if he gets some game time. It's difficult to judge players when they only get a few games here and there.

If we can pick up Fer for £8M and if he hasn't got any injury issues, he may be a better bet, but I can't say I've ever seen him play. Huddlestone is certainly worth a punt at £5M in my book, though because he's significantly better than what we have and still in the right age range.

Phil Davies
658 Posted 29/06/2013 at 14:36:16
I don't doubt that Jelavic had a very poor season and missed a load of clear chances, but surely confidence and luck comes into play if you are a striker, and unfortunately he had neither, you don't suddenly lose the ability to finish shots.

To the people who claim Moyes doesn't ruin strikers, name me one player who came to Everton and has a better scoring record after joining?

Andy Johnson: 74 goals in 140 games for Palace; 17 in 61 for Everton
James Beattie: 68 in 204 for Southampton 13 in 76 at Everton
Yakubu: 29 in 65 at Portsmouth, 25 in 73 at Middlesbrough, 25 in 82 at Everton then 17 in 30 at Blackburn

Yakubu came the closest to recreating good form, was sold for less than £2m, and went on to have brilliant season.

Jim Knightley
664 Posted 29/06/2013 at 14:54:02
Honestly, I wouldn't take Huddlestone for £1 million. I think he is an impotent player, who can't tackle, and is not a natural goal scorer. His only real benefit is passing... and Gibson does it as well as him.

If we are going to invest £5 million, I'd much prefer it directed towards Honda, who is only 6 months older or a younger model. I don't think it's relevant to look at Huddlestone as a better combo than Heitinga, Osman, Barkley or Neville. Barkley is an AMC, and doesn't have the skills for CM... and he didn't play there for us. Neville is no longer at the club, and Heitinga very rarely played CM, and if he is at the club, won't play there next season. Osman is a better, more mobile player than Huddlestone.

But I think it's all irrelevant anyway... Huddlestone is not Martinez's type of player, and we are never in a million years going to pay £5 million for him. Let Sunderland waste their money instead.

Barry Rathbone
670 Posted 29/06/2013 at 14:57:26
Usage of football stats is inversely proportional to the user's knowledge of football.

Complete and utter bollocks skewing the complete picture only your eyes and own knowledge can give.

The only stat worth a bean is which team won – all the other stuff is there to be manipulated – they mean absolutely fuck all in isolation.

Tom Bowers
673 Posted 29/06/2013 at 13:33:25
Huddlestone was a good player to covet 2 seasons back but since his injury he has lost some pace. He can play at the back and I can remember a stormer he had against the Blues a few years back at Goodison. Because of his injury though I would only take him on a free.

We always knew Moyes would try to pry players away once he moved, despite what he apparently said... after all, he works for Manure now — and I am sure he may get what he wants as "money talks".

Chris James
684 Posted 29/06/2013 at 15:22:46
Fair enough, I suppose I must bow to the rational and well reasoned anti-Moyes argument then... Oh hang on, I don't have to, as there isn't any, it's just a load of the usual bile based on bias, personal opinion and ignoring all the facts.

My favourite post has to be that of Rathbone, if only for it's utter lunacy and total lack of logic: "Usage of football stats is inversely proportional to the users knowledge of football."

That's clearly nonsense isn't it. That'd mean that Opta, the newspapers, the presenters and analysts and oh just about everybody who covers football would have no idea what they are talking about.

It'd also make the majority of the Premier League managers and coaches seem rather clueless for their use of systems like Prozone and other monitoring tactics. From what I understand, Mourinho assembles vast dossiers of information on players and teams through data and scouts – what an idiot!

The point you seem to be making is that actual factual data isn't as valuable for building an argument upon as the subjective opinion of one individual. Do you really believe that?

"Complete and utter bollocks skewing the complete picture only your eyes and own knowledge can give." – So you believe everything you see then Barry? You've probably learned everything you know about world history from Hollywood movies. Although I'd imagine you don't waste too much time at the cinema, as you can only every grow your vast mass of knowledge based on experiences you've witnessed first hand, you must be constantly out and about doing things and travelling the world.

As you frequently spout opinion on Everton Football Club and their motives, I imagine you'll have spent a fair bit of time working on the inside of the club, at board meetings, negotiating transfers and the training pitch too. Otherwise you'd be forced to form opinions on second-hand reporting or data-based facts.

"The only stat worth a bean is which team won – all the other stuff is there to be manipulated – they mean absolutely fuck all in isolation." Well that's not totally unreasonable I suppose.

You could consider that there are multiple factors which play into the ultimate outcome of a match, some of them highly random (poor refereeing decisions), others more predictable (quality of opposition, quality of players in particular positions as an end result of budgets).

I would also add that my argument wasn't based on stats 'in isolation' but rather a combination of a series of data-based factors. Oh, and if it adds further weight to your case, I've also seen virtually every match Everton played this year, either in person or on a TV screen (although presumably the latter is somehow less valid, offering as it does a slightly removed overview of the entire pitch complete with replays and analysis as opposed to the single one-time point of view from one spot in the stands – I'm assuming behind one of the goals).

Colin Dalton
695 Posted 29/06/2013 at 15:58:26
Jim, yes, I do mean the game where Coleman gave the ball away to the free roaming Fulham players, as Naismith was our only striker on the pitch at the time!
Peter Jansson
696 Posted 29/06/2013 at 16:01:08
Aubameyang is one of the fastest players in Fifa 2013. So he runs fast.
Sam Hoare
702 Posted 29/06/2013 at 16:07:29
Well said Chris James. Why trust anything such as factual evidence when Barry's subjective opinion is clearly superior?! Classic Rathbone rubbish.
Harold Matthews
703 Posted 29/06/2013 at 16:03:09
Lots of big words on this thread.

I'm sick of reading about Jelavic, Gibson, Osman, Fellaini and Baines.

Come back Mr Martinez. Give us something new.

Wayne Smyth
721 Posted 29/06/2013 at 16:57:03
Chris, in defence of Barry, I sort of agree with his sentiment about stats. You need context and other factual information to back them up. Arguing with stats alone is weak.

For starters, data (which is what a stat is) tells you nothing. It needs to be analysed, interpreted and converted into useful information. Even then, it should be taken with a significant measure of scepticism.

For example, Phil Neville was allegedly one of the best passers in the team. His pass completion ratio was one of the highest, if not the highest.

Anyone who actually watches the games will tell you something else. The problem is that the pass completion ratio doesn't tell you what kind of passes they were. Forwards, backwards, long, short, hospital for example.

Most other stats are similarly flawed. If you use "distance covered" as a metric to measure a players' worth, it tells you nothing about whether any of that running was worthwhile.

Sam Hoare
731 Posted 29/06/2013 at 17:18:33
Wayne, of course statistics can be misleading but to reject them altogether in favour of subjective opinion is nonsense.
Wayne Smyth
733 Posted 29/06/2013 at 17:21:57
Sam, I'll take my opinion of a player based on watching some games over any stat someone would like to quote.

When you watch a game you're taking in a hell of a lot more useful information than any stat can ever provide. You can use stats as an additional measure, but never on their own, in my opinion.

Jackie Barry
736 Posted 29/06/2013 at 17:12:19
Wayne you make some good points about the passing ratio and what kind of passes they were. I remember a lot of back ward passing followed by hoofball up field to try and get it to Fellaini, this in spite of the fact that when we played it on the ground we played much more impressive stuff.
Who else in our team created chances anywhere near to the number that Baines did, does anybody know? I think part of the reason for Baines being so high is that most of our play went down the left side, now don't get me wrong when the Pienaar/Baines partnership is running it's great but it also turns us into a one trick pony and teams do suss us out. Our forward line does need improving but Moyes' record with forwards is pretty poor, it will be interesting to see what happens.
Thomas Windsor
741 Posted 29/06/2013 at 17:47:24
I hope we can keep all the players we have and just bring in one good striker plus the odd loan or cheapie fill-in player.
Sam Hoare
751 Posted 29/06/2013 at 18:39:07
Wayne, I think it's fair to say that most people on here watch the games and then use the stats to back up something that they have observed. Of course they can be misused and some analyses are more thorough than others but to totally dispense with them as a form of argument in favour of clearly subjective, anecdotal opinion is churlish. Of course you will take your opinions as accurate but that doesn't mean you should expect others too.
Wayne Smyth
772 Posted 29/06/2013 at 19:09:34
Sam, I don't think stats should be dispensed with, but if thats all you've got to make your point, or if its the bedrock of your argument, then I think its pretty poor.

I think we see far too much bad use of stats - I'm sure I've done it myself in the past. People have an opinion, then drag out all the "factual" evidence to support their arguments(which is fine), but purposefully ignore anything that doesn't quite fit with their view of things(which isn't a good thing).

There aren't many objective people unfortunately, and many don't even make an attempt to be. Because of this I've grown to distrust the opinion of people when they start spouting numbers, unless their case contains something more tangible that I can relate to.

Chris James
775 Posted 29/06/2013 at 19:23:56
Just so I've covered both sides then, dispensing with the factual numbers based argument, I'll just say this.

From watching games all season Jelavic seemed to have had plenty of opportunities in central positions that were continually fluffed, rarely called for the ball and generally loks half the player we bought.
Anichebe was much improved and at times worked hard and looked threatening but at others had touch found lacking and though certainly meriting a place on the bench or a support striker in 4-4-2 still doesn't feel like a top class striker to lead the line.
Elsewhere, Naismith seems to know where the net is, but feels to me like a championship player in terms of all round game, whilst Vellios despite looking dangerous in patches doesn't seem to have the right attitude and McAlney should be given a run out but it's far too early to rely on him.

Add all these insights together and my gut feeling is that we need to buy some genuine quality up front to back up what I perceive to be a talented and comparatively creative midfield (which in my view played some lovely attacking football for much of the season.

Everyone happy?

David Greenwood
778 Posted 29/06/2013 at 19:36:05
Haha Chris, everyone happy?
On here?

Good luck with that.

Still think Jelly offers something, hopefully Bobby can work some magic on him.

Colin Glassar
782 Posted 29/06/2013 at 19:36:13
I'd take huddlestone if he gets rid of the Afro. One Afro in the team is enough and copies are always shite.
Paul Andrews
872 Posted 29/06/2013 at 22:40:25
I'm not going to the game this season.
I will still post though,I will use the stats to form an opinion.
Barry Rathbone
876 Posted 29/06/2013 at 22:36:02
Wayne Smith , well done saved me a lot of time.

I was going to rip into the drivel posted in response to my "stats in isolation" post but if people want to waste time essaying about a post they don't understand that's their problem.

You nailed it.

Jack Cross
894 Posted 30/06/2013 at 03:59:46
Phil Davies. I agree with you about Moyes and strikers. Surely your stats prove that.

Has anyone seen the Norwich striker Luciano Becchio? He doesn't seem to have settled in to Norwich. I saw him in quite a few games for Leeds United and he was deadly close in or far out from goal. A good goal tally in his 5 seasons at Leeds United. He's 29 and Argentine.

I think he would play well under Roberto. Worth enquiry I would say. And would well be within our reach, wallet-wise, I would think.

Jack Cross
897 Posted 30/06/2013 at 06:11:54
I hope Jelly stays and gets back on song, We've all seen him at his best and that just doesn't go. Yes, he missed some sitters, but you can't say he isn't a grafter. He's worth a second chance, I'd say. I'm going to put a bet on him anyway (if he stays).
Liam Reilly
898 Posted 30/06/2013 at 06:48:08
Anto 600
“Moyes has gone.....he will be tapping up Baines and Fellaini, maybe Barkley and OSMAN“.

Comedy gold sir.

Karl Parsons
903 Posted 30/06/2013 at 07:47:16
THE GOOD NEWS:
Prepare yourselves for Everton to take this one all the way. Getting very excited!

THE BAD NEWS
At the medical, scans revealed the striker has a twisted sock so all bets are off.

PREDICTION:
The beauts piss us all off AGAIN with Everton's transfer season...

Harold Matthews
917 Posted 30/06/2013 at 09:36:04
The TW stats on Howard say he is 6'-3".

Surely this is wrong.

Sam Hoare
919 Posted 30/06/2013 at 09:47:08
Barry Rathbone, please enlighten us. What was misunderstood about your nonsense post?

ps: You may have noticed that Wayne's position was better argued and considerably more balanced than yours. No surprise there.

Wayne Smyth
921 Posted 30/06/2013 at 09:44:40
Chris, I don't remember too many opportunities that Jelavic had. There were certainly a handful of woeful misses that stick in the mind, but I think by the time those came along the guy's confidence was shot. Most games I saw him, he had scraps to work off.

My opinion of watching us over the course of the season was that, when we committed numbers forward into the danger areas, we gave the striker decent chances, because there were options and something more for the defenders to watch. Our biggest failing was that too often we had 1 or 2 guys in the penalty area facing 5 or 6 opposition players. Our striker was on a hiding to nothing with those kind of odds.

I certainly think we lack real quality in attack, compared to about half the league, but I also suspect that assuming Martinez has a more attacking philosophy than Moyes, we'll see Jelavic back to his free-scoring form we witnessed during his first 6 months at the club.

For Moyes's methods to work with a striker, we need a Drogba-type player who is big enough to bully defenders, and mobile and technically good enough to do something on his own when he's 30 yards from the nearest blue shirt and 40 yards from goal.

I think and hope Martinez will bring out the best in the majority of our players, but especially the forwards. It would still be nice to be able to go out and get a Lukaku, but I think a change of philosophy will be as good as a change of player.

Barry Rathbone
936 Posted 30/06/2013 at 10:41:22
Sam, even you with your limited grasp of nuance, you must recognise Wayne is singing from the same hymn sheet, echoing my point about stats in isolation.

What needs to be added is a mystery.

Are you addicted to inane waffle about points already dealt with or are you a bit dehydrated?

Very odd request.

Sam Hoare
944 Posted 30/06/2013 at 11:31:29
Oh, Barry. How you continue to avoid answering the question and engaging in debate with petit insults!

Look at the posts.

Wayne says that he himself prefers to use his own judgement on what he has seen rather than looking at stats. Fair enough.

You however say 'Usage of football stats is inversely proportional to the user's knowledge of football.' which is clearly totally subjective bollocks.

Wayne himself is only able to say that he sort of agrees with your sentiment.

Even if you are singing from the same hymn sheet, wayne is at least singing partially in tune, you however are not.

Patrick Murphy
950 Posted 30/06/2013 at 12:16:28
Hurry, Hurry, Hurry — less than 12 hours remain of the MOB: no end-of-reign party, no awards ceremony, just a pedestrian dissolution of the old guard.

But, for those who want to join, a new MOB will be started on the 1st July; all those who wish to register should contact... well, nobody, it is up to you as an individual to choose. The other group formerly knows as IMWT can also feel free to join the new group.

A new era awaits but the old arguments will never die.

Come on you Blues. Viva el Sr Martínez, Viva la evolución.

Mark Frere
965 Posted 30/06/2013 at 13:07:49
Jack Cross (#894) – Are you for real, mate?

There's a reason Becchio hasn't settled at Norwich and that is because he isn't good enough at PL level. I've seen him play along side Beckford in League 1 for Leeds Utd and he looked okay at that level, but he wasn't as prolific as Beckford. I'm not a big fan of Big Vic or Jelavic, but I would much rather see them two in our starting 11, rather than Becchio.

Although we can't afford a top proven striker from one of the top leagues, we should be looking at players like Bony, Van Vossen and this lad from St Etienne; anything over £11 million though, is too much to be spending on one striker

Ian Glassey
020 Posted 30/06/2013 at 16:31:11
Bony or Vossen would do me, but come on, we are Everton, so we all know how it goes.

We will sign a couple of frees in the last week of August with Felly going on the last day, too late for us to do anything.

Jack Cross
058 Posted 30/06/2013 at 18:36:09
Mark Frere.

Yes, I am for real. Becchio could fit in to our team no problem. In my opinion, Mark. Just like in your opinion he wouldn't. He only went to Norwich in January. So maybe I'm jumping the gun by saying he hasn't fitted in. But he scores wherever he as played and that speaks for itself, Mark. I wasn't a fan of Beckford, but he scored 10 goals and he changed levels.

Has us looking for strikers that can do a job for us, we do look at them but that's all we do – look at them.

As for Vic, I'd let him go tomorrow. But Jelly, I think there's more to come from him. We've seen a glimpse of what he can do and that doesn't go away overnight.

Jelly had one problem, it was called Moyes.

Barry Rathbone
066 Posted 30/06/2013 at 19:01:53
Sam, I don't think you've ever written a coherent post on here I've just read you allude to Moyes not being involved in the Baines bid!!!!.

Back on planet earth Wayne just put more meat on the bone and patted your fuming little head - the message was the same - what do you want a cut and paste of Wayne's answer?

Retire with dignity, you took a partial point of my original post and ignored the qualifying statement then got nailed.

It's opinion you buffoon, now stop with the pompous garbage and check your french spelling.

Roman Sidey
092 Posted 30/06/2013 at 19:50:14
Patrick, I am wetting myself with anticipation waiting to see what level of IMWT Doddy takes this to.
Jack Cross
124 Posted 01/07/2013 at 03:52:59
Mark Frere. Bony and Vossen would be great, but what are the chances of them coming? So we have to think more bargain basement right?

Adam Le Fondre (Reading) 12 goals last season and he's restless. Could get him for next nothing and I'm not talking as main striker but as back up. Have you seen him Mark? Proved he can score in top flight.

Is it right that for Rooney to move from Man U, he can only go to a bigger club? Something to do with the sponsor's? Any idea?

Alan Smith
244 Posted 01/07/2013 at 14:42:08
We wear Nike now, rooneys sponsor, but so do Barca. Two years in Spain then he finishes his career at Goodson.

That will be his dream....but what will Nike say.

Surely he sells more Nike kits and boots whilst at man u than he would anywhere else. And for that reason his agent, Nike, and Moyes will alk him in staying.

We should unsettle Rooney by getting ex evertonians to make comments on "how he should go abroad before the World Cup to benefit from other styles of play. How he should be main man not second fiddle"

Really piss Man U off

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