Everton's Mojo Still Missing Despite Vital Win

Besic will become a fan favourite. MotM (IMO) for me was between Barkley and Besic for different reasons. I thought also that Jags had a steady game. Seamus seems off his game. I wonder if McGeady actually gets in his space going forward.

We don’t see much of the Baines magic down the left now that Pienaar is not starting and too many of Baines’s crosses are hitting the nearest opponent.

What’s creating the lethargy in the team? Is there something we’re not being told?

Lukaku needs more aggression to his game, too nice at times. His goal scoring record is very good, if he gets a nasty streak it will be even better.

Lukaku seemed strangely unbothered. The chance where Naismith was set free down the left comes to mind. Lukaku is goalside of his man and the ball comes across, if he gets there it an almost certain goal and you would expect him to strain every sinew but instead it looks like he’s giving it about 80% effort and misses out by a foot or so. I thought he would be very up for it last night as a rested striker at home against the worst defense in the league.

Generally speaking, we still seemed incredibly lethargic, I thought, with a lack of urgency and concentration. We look no better than your average mid-table team at the moment when one feels that our players individually should comprise a team able to challenge top 4. Something smells a little off...

There is something wrong at Finch Farm or is the EL proving just too much for us in respect of too many games for this relatively small squad?

It was good to get the 3 points and hopefully it gives us confidence to go on a run. However the concession of the goal and the edginess that followed did not give me confidence that we will.

Besic did have a good game in terms of his energy and desire. He does seem to always pass backwards though. Not unique within the team in doing that.

Good to see Naismith back. If only every player showed his desire to get forward as much.

There clearly needs to be a plan B that requires speed and sharpness that’s absent. We are not giving the service upfront with a ball to feet, we are not crossing early, we are not crossing period! Nothing to run on to.

Lastly, Baines and Coleman are not doing the job, poor going forward poor defending, the two best fullbacks in the league are so out of sorts because of how they are being asked to play... It’s no wonder the natives are restless, RM needs to play to our strengths, and not slavishly adhere to tactics when they are not working.

Also, as someone else mentioned, the ball comes backwards almost every time he touches the thing!

QPR played quite well and prevented our attacking backs from coming forward. Lukaku got rubbish service while he was on and was beaten in the air.

We have a very very talented squad and Besic is now showing us what he has to offer. It is the same grit that we’ve seen from McCarthy and Stones.

Mirallas out for Soton Saturday looks likely which will be a downer. I’m not making excuses for anyone, we’ve been disappointed recently but the reason for that has been tippy tappy tactics and the use of mediocrity when we also possess talent. At Soton we need to be faster on the ball going forward.

On the negative most of our problems are self-inflicted with the incessant passing across the back and putting ourselves in difficulty. Distin and Jags go wide to receive the ball from Howard, however, if he gives it to a midfielder who then gets into difficulty, we are really in the shit.

If we are going to play Lukaku we have to play to his strengths and not his weaknesses

Add in the goals scored in the EL and we have totalled 38 goals in 25 games played. However, we have shipped eight more goals in the PL than we did this time last season and perhaps it is this figure that is the problem and why the team lack confidence or are afraid to take risks. Obviously we are also 10 points down on this time last season so it’s a good job we have scored goals otherwise the wheels could well and truly have come off.

Let me explain my problems with Besic, and maybe some of you can consider them before calling me crazy. He’s playing in the Barry role. His job is to hold and 85% of the time he occupied that position and was exactly where he needed to be. For me Barry is there 100% of the time. He rarely drives forward or makes forward runs. Besic does so, and yes, it looks good, it adds to the attack and he is effective in joining attacks (except for his wild shots). However, when the move breaks down we are dangerously exposed at the back. I would prefer he was more disciplined as Barry is (probably also due to Barry’s lower levels of stamina).

Next, Besic slips and slides everywhere. Okay, it looks great on TV, he’s sliding in and showing great effort. But again, he’s lacking discipline, he doesn’t always win the ball, he sometimes gets bypassed, and then the defence is again left exposed. Why does Besic need to charge 20 yards further forward into the attacking midfielders zone (where Naismith was) and make a tackle when there was no immediate danger. Failure to win possession creates an opportunity for the opposition that was not there.

My biggest gripe with Besic is his passing. Besic can be a lovely passer. He hits a great 60-yard ball and can find a team mate’s foot. However, he tries to do so far too often and his success rate is not good enough for him to warrant these passes. On the occasion he is successful, the player then takes time to bring the ball down (he often plays it in the air), then to deal with the opponent who has closed him down and then the ball goes back into defence once more. Typically, Barry will play an easy pass and we’ll knock it around the back ineffectively for a bit, but he’s not giving the ball away as often.

We play a 4-2-3-1. For me, the greatest example of how the "2" should play is an example of RS under Benitez. Mascherano was exceptional in the Barry role, and Alonso is one of the best deep-lying playmakers I have ever seen. Mascherano would win the ball and look for Alonso as often as possible. McCarthy is no Alonso, but whenever he gets the ball, he does not give it away and his quick short passing nearly always finds a teammate, and most importantly, rarely puts his teammate under pressure.

I was very disappointed with the crowd once more. I thought they still fail to grasp the modern game, the way we are being set up to play and seem to have very short memories. We were 3-0 up, were strolling to victory, and knocking it around the back, running down the clock and conserving energy for those 5 games in 2 weeks, seemed to be the smart thing to do. But no, it seemed most of us wanted the team, particularly Big Rom, to run themselves into the ground, and to have less in the tank going into the the vital Christmas period as a result.

We play a different way under Martinez. Surely, no one would prefer Moyes’s hoofball, or Smiths all our defence and hit and hope style, or the dire Dogs of War of Royle (Unsworth continuously hoofing it to Ferguson). The football is a delight to watch now. But the opponents are dealing with us in the same way. They press us high to try to catch our less technical players on the ball and to force a mistake. The gap between the defence and attack is much tighter than under Moyes, Smith or Royle. At times there’s 20 yards from Lukaku to Distin. This is a much tighter area of play than last season, and is due to opponents pressing us and us not getting out of defence quick enough.

When you are getting pressed like that, you need to give yourself time and space, and often the only people you can do that with is the centre-backs. Bear in mind that a quick pass to Jags or Distin is only taking the ball back 10 yards or so, and maybe 20 by the time they’ve played it around a bit, but usually a quick exchange can have the ball back in a more advanced position.

For me, Martinez needs to invest in a keeper to suit this style of play. Howard is not comfortable when the ball comes deep like so and he needs to usually kick it long and so breaks down the move. Someone like Lloris of Spurs, or a young Casillas or a young Shay Given, would be more comfortable with this and could be a vital 11th player to help keep the passing going. Martinez needs to find such a keeper for the long term.

I also think that we need to work more on moving the ball faster. Players take too much touches and the moves get away from them. When we zip it about with quick one touch passes, between key technical players like Barkley, Pienaar (pre-injury), Mirallas (when he doesn’t get his head down), McCarthy, and Lukaku, then we can quickly cut any team in the league wide open. It’s the transitions from Defence to Attack that Mourinho works so hard on. I’ve read about him playing a "counter-counter attacking" system, which seems laughable, but it’s these areas where we struggle. This is where we need to move the ball faster, this is where we lack McCarthy at the moment and where Barkley is so crucial. In the long-term, if he is to play in a deeper role, then getting the ball early in this transition so he can immediately start to drive forward with his head up and looking for passing options, then we will be far more effective.

Lukaku is really struggling this season on service as a result. It’s a testament to his quality that he’s still amassed a half decent haul of goals. It does not suit him and it does not suit our style of play to launch the ball long, like he’s the new Duncan Ferguson. Let’s imagine he did win the ball like Ferguson. How often did Ferguson actually do anything with it. Getting his head on the aimless long ball is one thing, bringing it down is another, dealing with the 4 or 5 players who will then swarm him is beyond even Drogba at his peak. It again comes back to transitions. Get the ball forward quickly, get it to Rom’s feet, he’s got quick feet can pick a pass and it’s him and Barkley linking up that usually results in quick counter attack goals for us.

Basically, the opposition have figured out how to smother our tactics from last season. But we need to have a faster gear to go into, so that maybe, one day, like Barcelona, it does not matter if you know how to stop us, knowing and doing are separate things. Quick, accurate, short passing is always effective by taking many players out of the move instantly (particularly against high pressing sides) and gives you many more opportunities in attack against an exposed opponent.

We found a way to get a good win (could’ve easily been more with a bit of fortune – yes, we got a couple of deflections but I still think we were a bit unfortunate). Also, the one goal conceded that blotted the performance (and ruined my Fantasy Team) came from a break after yet another quite frankly laughable piece of officiating! We need confidence and key players returning and these sort of results can only help – the boos will not.

I by no means think he is the finished article, he does need to learn to calm down a bit, but I believe in the long term he will become Martinez best buy.

Baines and Pienaar have to start playing together again, those saying Pienaar is finished are nuts. He is the only one with the spark of movement and creativity that is needed, and he understands space, how to find it and how to create it for Baines, in a way that Mirallas doesn’t. This is despite how ineffective he was last night. He shouldn’t come on as a substitute, Pienaar doesn’t suit the end of a game when it becomes open and all about running the spaces that appear as it gets stretched, he’s much better off getting involved early on, keeping the pressure on the opposition and demanding full concentration from defenders.

He’s probably injured now, but Mirallas has to play on the right, not the left. He seems to think he can cut in and shoot if he plays left, but that is easy to defend, and it eventually caused his injury, because he doesn’t know what else to do when the defence inevitably closed down his shooting lane. He couldn’t even get past Richard Dunne for pace from the left at one point last night. Martinez seems obsessed with playing players on the wrong side, Atsu hasn’t played on the left at all for us this season. Players who use pace should be on the strong side, players who use trickery and invention can play on the wrong side.

Firstly, I was in the crowd last night and I do grasp the modern game, as do most of the people around me. I am happy for us to keep the ball but am frustrated when we pass the ball backwards from advanced positions only to give the ball to Howard who kicks the ball long for the opposition to win it back. That just doesn’t make sense.

Secondly, if you think Besic had a bad game then I think you are mistaken. Your main critique is to compare him to Barry and suggest he should be more "disciplined". Personally I think Barry has fallen considerably short of his early form last season. Besic brought more to the game last night than Barry has all season and I think he is going to be a top, top player.

I admire Naismith’s workrate and intelligence to find space around box but he is such a limited fooballer. Whenever we need him to play that killer pass or even a slightly more difficult pass, he’s incapable of doing so. In short, he’s a very average footballer who makes the best of what little ability he has. It would help his game if he had a centre forward in front of him who could hold the ball up and create chances for him to convert, but neither Lukaku or Naismith have a creative bone in their body and definitely don’t suit each others game.

There’s no player in our team really nitting things together... we have good Full-backs that are in poor form at the moment, good work-horses and holding midfielders like McCarthy, Besic and Barry and good soloists like Mirallas and Barkley. But we don’t have enough creative players in the side... Pienaar and Osman are probably the closest thing we have to that and both are past it and have always, in some cases, been played out of position and both always struggle for consistency.

We need to get the full back / wideman combos working – when we had Baines/Pienaar and Coleman/Mirallas cutting teams apart.

The problem is we do not move the ball fast enough, our tempo is not quick enough, and some player take too many touches. I do not think you can blame Martinez for players not taking risks as he seems to be supportive of them doing that, such as Besic’s first touch in a blue shirt which led to us conceding a goal.

David, it’s about opinions, so you cannot say I’m mistaken. I certainly hope Besic can be a good player, and he’s got a lot of attributes, stamina, work rate, tackling, touch, passing, among them. I just do not think he has the discipline to play as a holding midfielder in the British game, as he lacks that discipline. He would certainly be good foil for McCarthy in a more traditional 4-4-2 where the shackles would be off somewhat. Or even in the Barkley role last night. For me, his eagerness takes him away from being that shield in front of the back four. A shield that is needed if we allow our fullbacks to get forward (like they did last season, more than this).

For Barry this season, I do not think anyone would disagree that he was far more effective last season. But remember, the opposition are squeezing us far more this season. They know that if they lose the ball, and squeeze us tight immediately, then we struggle to get forward quickly and this reduces our chances to capitalising on the transition.

ItÂ’s hard to grasp what our Â’styleÂ’ is this season. I certainly couldnÂ’t see one. Yes, we won but it was a really poor performance from most. Besic was the best on show by a country mile. NaismithÂ’s pressing was something we have missed also but the rest looked clueless most of the time. No movement or running into space at all. Worrying.

Really impressed with Besic and thought Naismith was excellent, possibly the Man of the Match. At times Everton were sloppy, but QPR were incapable of taking advantage.

I do agree that our full backs are not the force they were last season and think the explanations offered above about McGeady taking Coleman’s space and that Baines plays better with Pienaar on his flank are credible.

The criticisms of Besic are a little harsh. I do agree he risks being sent off, and that at times his passing can be over ambitious, but he looks capable of running a midfield like McMahon at his best.

As for creativity, I do think we have enough in the team. This comes from Barkley, Lukaku, McCarthy, Mirallas, Pienaar, Osman and Eto’o. All can pick a pass. Their problem seems to be more with a lack of movement, and we seem to be at our best when someone, like Barkley or Mirallas is running at a defence. If we were to put a player like Banegaor a young Veron or Riquelme into the side, then you’d see them playing in a similar position to McCarthy and playing a lot of sideways balls due to the lack of movement and the lack of mobility of most of these great playmakers. Interestingly, Banega looks to be available in January if Martinez wants to take a chance on the wild one.

I sit in the Park End so had a great view of just how influential Besic was on the game and the players around him. Many have highlighted the need for a tough, dominant force in our team and he will be just that.

I do agree with you that Besic + McCarthy + Barkley is the way forward. We can all see that our system of both fullbacks pushing on has been stymied so continuing to play with two defensive midfielders just doesn’t make sense. We need to change it so personally I’d swap out Barry for Besic!

Also thought Besic was superb last night, but then I like a tackler but the modern game doesn’t – he only has to slightly mistime one, or for the ref to be conned by an opponent’s theatrics, to pick up a booking or sending off. If he can calm down slightly he’ll be fine.

Seamus still not himself, sadly, although I agree that McGeady often fills the space that formerly he’d be charging into. The combination play between the two is virtually non-existent.

In the Krasnador game, Kone was really good holding the ball up and I think this is what is missing; of course, this still needs the ball moving quickly to him.

Let’s see what the boss does against Southampton.

Xavi, Iniesta, Villa and Messi — not one of them out and out strikers. Players like Barkley, Naismith and Mirallas are who’s suited to this slow build-up / inter-passing style.

ItÂ’s quite simple, we donÂ’t need a target man if the other 10 players in the side donÂ’t recognise him as one!!

I think Besic and McCarthy together are capable of forming a high energy, dynamic and potentially creative midfield duo as both are capable of getting forward and running past a man. An exciting prospect these two I feel.

Then you have Besic, who I know can be a bit rash and miss place a pass, but he is everything I like about a CM and he’s getting better all the time, his big tackles, in the modern game do risk getting punished (which is wrong on my opinion) but if you want to get the crowd up in a big game, he’s your boy. To me, he has the energy and ability for Everton to start playing with one central defensive midfielder instead of the two we seem to need at the moment in Barry and McCarthy.

Don’t forget, he’s only played a handful of games, there have been a ton of high profile footballers who showed nothing until their second season in the EPL, others who never adapted full stop.

I liked that he reacted to the (correct) booing and from then demanded the ball and tried to drive and pass forward (I disagree he always goes sideways/back, he does as they all do if there is nothing on however nowhere near as much as Barry and in particular McCarthy).

In these two the future, to me, looks bright with two box-to-box CMs both young, one more forward orientated one more defensive.

Then you get the odd opportunity, out the norm, when the ball does get played to your strengths and you’re not on it! Like the ball played across the goal, or the times he was caught jogging back offside when the ball got played forward quickly, you can’t blame him for this, how many times do you make a run forward to not get the ball and see it go back to Howard before you think ’fuck this’?

The poor kid’s a 㿈 million pound decoy at the mo’. In spite of this, he has 7 goals, well done son.

I fully accept why the fans are restless, and it’s clear that this manager wants his team to keep the ball, no matter what the circumstances are on the pitch.

Everton have always played blood-and-thunder football, mixed with skill and pace. Our most successful side in the eighties played with aggression and a fast-passing style. You only have to look back at our buccaneering centre-forwards over the decades to realise what we were all about. Joe Royle, Bob Latchford, Andy Gray, Duncan Ferguson. Feck me, even Denis Stracqualursi had a bit of a following amongst some Blues, and he was a League 2 player at best.

Martinez is trying to introduce a style that is massively alien to everything we are used to watching for the last 30 or 40 years, and when it’s poorly executed, it’s plain torture for fans that are used to seeing cross after cross into the box. If nothing else, that was an exciting approach, lots of corners, near misses, and the crowd were always up for it.

Personally, I want to give Martinez time, hoping these young players such as Stones, Besic, McCarthy, Barkley, Lukaku etc. can eventually click into place.

It has to happen sooner rather than later though. The crowd are getting more pissed off with every passing game. This team needs to turn on the style, or to win a pot, otherwise, Mr Martinez will be history.

I hope and pray Mr Martinez you read some of the excellent posts on here and realise for all of the above it is just not Everton as we want to see it – please take note that last night was at times boring; mostly lethargic and devastating we were not except for Ross’s goal.

For goodness sake – more urgency; more movement off the ball; space for the full backs to run into and ban the pass back in training unless absolutely necessary – oh and buy a fecking goalkeeper!

We complain that Jags and Distin keep loosing the ball under pressure but the blame should shift to the manager as he is the one directing them to keep possession.

No, I was not in favor of him when he was hired; but yes, I was willing to give him a chance and was pleased when he proved himself last season. This season I think he is underestimating other managers who are simply using tactics to counter against what worked against them last season.

I do not like mentioning OFM but I believe it was him when Swansea was riding high he simply pressed them as soon as they got the ball, stopped their passing game, and won; after that, other managers coppied him.

The modern game changes in style, tactics and formations all the time and the modern manager has to be prepared to change with them.

At a time when the club is trying to woo potential partners for a new stadium, it would be ironic if the very heartbeat of the club ’the fans’ were to show their disdain for the team and its style of football, given the support they have given the board and team over the last couple of decades.

It wasn’t a pleasant experience to be at Goodison last night and as many have said, rarely has a victory at home been greeted in such a muted way. It is the board’s job to appoint the manager and to back him as they see fit... but it would be foolhardy of the board to ignore the reaction of the fans. Of course, the fans have been wrong before, Howard Kendall Mk1 springs to mind, but this time – even to a supporter of Roberto – it feels very different.

Besic is looking like a real bargain at ٢M and Barkley had a great game playing deeper, the pair were a real handful for QPR and their both 21 or younger!

Having Naismith playing also makes a real difference as the guy just doesnt stop running and isn’t afraid to challenge for any 50/50, having him back is a real boost.

Main negatives were the Baines and Lukaku, neither really did much in the game, although Lukaku got the assist for the first goal. Also I was a bit disappointed with the subs. Thought we’d have seen Kone on for at least the last 15 to 20 mins, would have been interesting to see him play up top with Eto just behind.

Pienaar is really not adding anything these days, he really looks a shadow of the player we knew a year or two ago.

I was also surprised to see two CBs on the bench and no Oviedo, has he picked up another injury?

Its almost like the urgency has been slowly eroded from them and replaced with a safety first mantra. Let’s hope this is all part of Martinez master plan and once he has the right keeper and CB’s (Stones accepted) the pace/urgency combined with possession (and youth) will come and we will be the real deal. The board HAVE to back him though!

I know it’s frustrating at the minute, but let’s show a little patience and back the team!

Every time we play I think that maybe we will finally click but it never happens. >Last season just when you thought it was time for a substitution it happened and the player you had in mind came on/went off. This season, it is not happening.

Oh well... at least Barkley and Besic looked good together. Naismith makes up for the fact that Lukaku is disappointing at times.

Howard and the defence are a worry as always. We need footballers in defence and a goalkeeper with quick and accurate distribution skills to play Roberto’s way.

Delighted we won but my sons and I were groaning at some of the play last night.

Most of our "key" players are under 25 years and very talented. This group of players "IF" kept together with the right mixture of experience and more young dynamic players, we could finally win some silverware again!! Hope so!!... With a little guidance from our manager!!

I’m looking forward to results when we find our mojo. We should shoot up the league.

Of course, these things happen in the course of a game, but that for me was very frustrating. Just think how Nais felt!

The magic of last season is missing and one thing I point to is scraping out wins when you’re not at your best. Yesterday, Everton won by somehow scoring 3 times when they weren’t at their best. More results like this would be welcome news to me.

So far, through 16 games, Everton have won one game by a 1-goal margin. You need those scrappy 1-goal wins which do boost confidence and move you up in the table.

That one surprised me too. Naismith has been badly missed while injured.

I donÂ’t see any benefit in playing Nais other than, work rate and the odd goal. He played as a Number 10 last night and in many aspects this role is played by gifted technical players who can see a pass, run with the ball quickly and create many problems for the opposition, also link up constantly with the front player!! Well, Nais couldnÂ’t be further from that type of player. Sorry mate, just my humble opinion.

The other thing we need is quicker movement and passing. There’s nothing wrong with the tactics, they’re just being badly executed by players who did it well last season.

Jags/Distin have to cover a whole half of the pitch for large swathes of our attacking play, which is often ponderous and falls apart with a one bad pass.

I guess what I’m trying to get at is we lack the element of surprise in attack and whilst pondering how to crack open a defense with 8 men far up the pitch, get nailed on the counter.

I don’t think we’re the only "top" team to be a victim of this, the "lesser" teams have to some extent learned to exploit it.

Thoughts?

All-in-all, a typical Everton match only this time we fluked a few goals to scrape the win. Martinez is dreaming if he thinks this was a good showing.

Baines needs dropping very soon. He’s not hit a good cross or corner in years, amd last night he showed absolutely no awareness for Zamora’s goal. Send him to San Sebastian in January for whatever their record fee would be.

You have to forgive the odd lapse in technical ability for all the energy and workrate he brings to the team.

He chases balls down and covers more of the pitch than anyone and chips in with a goal rate that is comparable to Lukaku recently.

I am more than happy with him.

All I can say is, thank feck Barkley was on his game within their first third last night!! Also, what type of player is Barkley? A technical creative player!

Good point, Steavey Buckley, hope Bobby wisens up.

After Chrimbo is the business end of the season; onwards and upwards.

How about his 1 in 2 scoring record in the league this season? I’ve missed that.

On another comment I agree Naismith isn’t the most skillful of players and I would like the classic visionary number 10 (a very rare breed in the modern game) but he never stops harassing the opposition and he is a goal scorer.

Barkley could actually be the classic Number 10 but after last night I prefer him deeper. Hopefully he will remain there and hopefully Martinez won’t just reinstall Barry and McCarthy.

So IMO Besic and Barkley offer a bit more dynamism and something different from Barry and McCarthy. We need to be more creative in midfield.

I’ve wanted to see Barkley played in this role since his performance in the home derby last season. It also allows Naismith to play and we’re a bit more mobile in midfield. While I’m not knocking Barry and McCarthy. I think that the Barkley, Besic pairing might be the answer in the short term until we bring in another quality winger in the mould of Delboy. We need more creativity than the likes of McGeady Atsu and Pienaar to see again what Barry and McCarthy excel at. And I put more onus on Barry there, because McCarthy could also play well with Barkley.

Is it Mo? Deffo a liability at times, gonna get sent off once in a while, but he adds something we’ve been missing. The lads growing on me. The way we’re playing atm grit & determination are needed, in equal measure. The fluent and quick attacking football of last year has long gone, time to dig in.

BTW, booing was a bit harsh last night, however, knowledgeable fans know when a team flatters to deceive. I’ll be at St Mary’s on Saturday, can’t wait. COYB

NFG
Coleman; Jags; Barry; Garbutt;
McCarthy; Barkley; Besic; Mirallas; Lukaku; Naismith

I do not understand how people on this site can be so negative about our players. What did you expect, please tell me.

The players were so lacking in confidence and yet people were booing them last night even thought they won. Is it me?

I don’t believe RM will change his style this style has been his mantra since he became a coach. He believes possession is the be-all and end-all to such a degree that last night players would rather pass the ball back 40 yards when inside the opponent’s half than play the ball forward. I counted on a couple of occasions last night where we passed the ball 20 times and still didn’t get more than a yard into QPR’s half. We are playing to good capacity gates yet most of the game is watched in silence as there is nothing to get the fans excited.

The players were not booed the other night, the manager was.

Opposition managers are not daft they look for strengths and weaknesses in teams their playing next, they can see when closely marked most of our players are not up to it.

I think the bottom line is how many of our players would be in the usual top 4s sides team?
Howard-no, Coleman- yes, Baines-probably, Distin-no, Jags-? McCarthy-? Barry-no, Stones- maybe later, McGeady-no, Barry-no, Ossie-no, Pienaar-no, Barkley- yes, Besic-no, Eto-? Lukaku-? Mirallas-? Naismith-no, Kone-no, and no for the rest of our players.

So should we expect us to be challenging for a top 4 place this season especially with our Europa commitments?

I admire the style he is trying to introduce but how long will it take for him to realise that sometimes you have to change when it is not working, A number of the players we have, do not seem to control the ball as soon as it is passed to them and then have to take a couple of touches before passing and this is what is slowing our progress forward.

Have to agree with the comments about Besic but would prefer one of our forwards getting a MotM award rather than a defensive midfielder when playing a bottom team at home...

The fact remains that at the start of the season we leaked goals in through individual mistakes in the main caused by attempting to play keep ball. The rot had to stop, but one of the first rules of thumb for a defender has always been, "if in doubt get it out" that seems to have gone out the window, now it’s i"if in doubt knock it about" and we all know what happens if there is no one to give it too.

However, what is enough time? In my view Roberto seems to believe that enough time is , well, forever.

The problems we are witnessing start at the back, with Jagielka and Distin, they are just not suited to this style, and never will be. Stones however, is perfect for this system, so are Baines and Coleman.

We need a winning run of games to see us at our confident best, but how long can we wait?

How can a 㿈 million player be so bad? How can England’s full back be so set in his comfort zone that he never takes a risk going forward? How is McGeady in the team? Martinez said his cross for the goal was a piece of "magic", talk about being easily pleased. How can our manager be apparently blind to the problems?

This team is playing phenomenally badly, fantastically slow and magnificently dull with an amazing lack of intensity. ( I will exempt Barkley, Besic and Naismith ). Everyone at the club needs to sort it out quickly or it could all go very wrong.

So I’d just like to see that formation and to be a bit more tactically diverse against teams other than City.

Have I missed something? What you trying to say? Because heÂ’s scored a couple of goals this season he should play the No 10 role! Maybe your saying because heÂ’s scored a few he should obviously

Play! Look, Jags, Coleman, and Kev have scored just as many, and Lukaku more again. Maybe these deserve to play that pivitol role in the team? Maybe they could take it in turns. WhatÂ’s your point?

Not with you when you say Jags, Coleman and Kev have scored just as many?

So is this season’s dross down to refs, injuries, luck......or dare I say it, rank bad management via an obsession with that bloody philosophy?

Answers on a postcard, please!

Anyway, IÂ’m not that concerned about that part of his game. ItÂ’s his total lack of technical class, and know -how needed to play the no 10 role for himself, and the success of the team. You may like his basic attributes has a footballer, but I believe, there is much better within our squad (EtoÂ’o, Super Kev ect, just for starters) that could play this role.
The greater visuals our young players get from seeing this role and other roles played with understanding and knowledge and success, the better the development within our talented younger players.The likes of Barkley, Lukaku and many more like them, will learn from gifted technical players when playing between the lines and last third of pitch and much more.

Colin, am I right in saying Naismith is almost 1 in 2 this season? I donÂ’t see what calendar dates he scored them on has any relevance. Tell you what, you donÂ’t have him in your preferred 11, I would play him every week.

The most important person re his selection seems to agree with me, not you.

It was boring stuff but I can see some light at the end of the tunnel from this one. Here are my observations.

We still know how to move the ball up the pitch quickly - we just donÂ’t do it often enough. When we do we either score or go close.

We need to start every game hell for leather to get an early goal. This will draw the opposition in to us and give us opportunities to hit them on the break for the second goal

David at # 31 - that midfield really appeals to me. I really rate Besic. He is in the mould of Tony Kay. A midfielder with a football brain and hards as nails. He is going to be some player for us in the months and years to come.

If you wanÂ’t to win games pick players who hate to lose. Besic would hate to lose a game of noughts and crosses.

In like McGeady. I have watched him very closely in recent starts - he has learnt to track back and help the full back. More importantly when he gets the ball there is always a chance he is going to "do something different". He laid the goal on for Naismith. He gets the ball into the box consistently.

I like EtoÂ’o - he is my favourite of our strikers. He is a finisher - what a shame that shot hit the post - it deserved a goal. At the risk of repeating myself I would start him every game - we have to make the most of his talent while we still have time.

As Kevin said at # 42 - "Everton have always played blood-and-thunder football, mixed with skill and pace."

My "blood-and-thunder" starting eleven would be:-

Howard (hmm)
Coleman, Jagielka, Distin, Baines,
McCarthy, Barkley, Besic,
McGeady, EtoÂ’o, Mirallas.

That would leave on the bench - Lukaku, Naismith, Kone, Barry, Pienaar, Oviedo, Garbutt, Alcaraz, on the bench.

Last but not least - January shopping list:

A young Peter Czech
Another Joleon Lescott.

His right as a "paying customer," of course. I hate that fucking term "customer!" Those who want to call themselves customers is fine by my but to me, thereÂ’s a big difference between a "customer" and a supporter. If youÂ’re a customer you can go and take your money elsewere.

Does it do the teamÂ’s confidence any good, when the crowd boo? I read someoneÂ’s post who said they were booing the manager. Really? of course the players know that donÂ’t they.

What I see out there on the pitch is fear. There are some players out who are so scared of making a mistake that they take a safe option. I think itÂ’s happening more often now and one of the reasons is that they are scared of the crowd reaction.

Even last season, when we did so well, there were mentions on here of "Tippy Tappy football" "HeÂ’ll take us down" and the feller behind me was still moaning at every match.

The tactics last season served us fairly well, I thought. I also thought that compared to the football IÂ’d been watching before, it was in large parts, refreshingly entertaining and successful and boded well for this season. I thought weÂ’d do well again this season if we finish around sixth and had a decent run in Europe and maybe one of the cups.

I think this season there are two main reasons why weÂ’re not as exciting as we were in a lot of games last season.

One is, of course that every team in the league will have worked on how to best nullify our attacking play and even Chelsea did it.

The other reason I think we havenÂ’t done so well (so far) is the list of injuries weÂ’ve had, in what is still a small squad. How many games have Berkeley, Coleman, Stones, Oviedo, McCarthy, Miralles, Pienaar, Kone,Naismith, Alcaraz missed since the start of the season.

I thought we battered Arsenal for 70 minutes and against Chelsea, they were the ones trying to waste time and I thought we played quite qwell in that game going forward. CanÂ’t say the same about defence though!

WeÂ’re stuttering, no doubt, but I donÂ’t think there is too much wrong with our game when we have everyone fit. The major problem I see is that, even though other teams are taking counter measures. WeÂ’ve not had our most effective partnerships in attack for most of the games so far.

Pienaar and Baines, Coleman and Miralles (or Deolefeu) last season were causing mayhem amongst opposition defences last season. BerkeleyÂ’s and McCarthyÂ’s runs were adding to it and Lukaku was getting some decent service and scoring goals.

We are not as fluent going forward, thatÂ’s for sure, but I donÂ’t see it as all to do with RobertoÂ’s style of football. Some of our players are found out skill wise when they asked to do a different style of football that they have grown up with but IÂ’d still much rather see the football trying to be played than a bloody great hoof up the park.

Even when Dunc was playing, his goal record was poor and the dire football we played didnÂ’t help when it was just booted up to him and heÂ’d have about 3 defenders round him. HeÂ’d usually get the header, but weÂ’d lose the ball most times.

When Pienaar and Miralles are both fit and their partnerships with the full backs are firing, when McCarthy is fit and we have a midfield of Besic, Berkeley and Macca, when we get Stones back in the middle of the defence, then I think we are a pretty good side who can play a bit.

I feel sorry for the paying SUPPORTER who watch that dire pedestrian rubbish week in week out. Although they do have the choice not to go and I admit it will take an earth shattering change of style and commitment to make me shed valued money to enter the Goodison Morgue at the moment.

I watched from the comfort of my armchair and was embarrassed at what other teamÂ’s supporters think of the atmosphere at Goodison. ThereÂ’s no excitement around the place and apart from the odd goal the main noises are sighs and boos. I havenÂ’t heard snoring yet but IÂ’m sure I will soon.

IÂ’m not happy with Martinez at the moment, but there is one thing to consider, which is seemingly missed by so so many on here - the lack of intensity might not be because of his direction. Teams who play a passing game are often perceived to lack intensity when they are out of form or confidence. It is because they are scared to play the tough ball, or the quick ball into feet in a crowded area. What happens to passing when you are aware that the crowd will groan if the ball is lost? Some players can handle this, but most canÂ’t. This style will look alot better when confidence is back. How will it come back though? Martinez needs to convince us that it will, and get everyone back onside, because there is some genuine dissent now.

BainesÂ’ and ColemanÂ’s main strengths ar their forward play rather than defending so we already have our two wingers.

The problem lies in MF where RM picks too many "outright" forwards leaving MF light.

I would play a MF of McCarthy Besic Barkley and Barry (OR Baines with Garbutt LB) and a front two of Mirallas, Lukaku or Naismith.

That would tighten us up defensively and link up play better leaving the fullbacks to overlap.

Also, to put Nais at the same level as Timmy! I think youÂ’re barking mad. How can you make that statement?! (Maybe I read it wrong.)

What I do think is having an impact is the injuries to key players and a distinct lack of quality in wide areas.

Other teams struggle when they have injuries and we're no different. While we're very strong in the central midfield department, we went into this season very short of quality in wide areas and we started with Lukaku half-injured and Barkley out till recently.

Baines and Coleman both do their best work with a confident and able winger ahead of them to create space and combine with. This season Atsu has shown himself to be sub-par. McGeady is too inconsistent. Mirallas has been out injured and Pienaar looks a faint shadow of the player he has been in recent seasons. We've played Barkley, Eto'o, Osman, Lukaku, Naismith out there, but none are wingers.

I think people are looking at what Martinez is doing as if there is something fundamentally wrong with "his style". There isn't. The team simply lack sharpness, confidence and ability going forward. Hence why we so often need to go sideways or backwards. For me that's a form issue, not something fundamentally wrong with his style.

When the crowd got on the players backs against Hull and we started going long ball, it did us no favours. The ball ended up with Hull players and we created nothing, as so often happens with long-ball teams.

This team reminds me of Everton under Moyes just before Donovan came over on loan. We just need that little bit of sharpness, pace and quality in the final third and things will click. We will look a different side.

It will probably take a season or so for Martinez to replace the ageing and immobile Pienaar and Osman and the shite Atsu with players of the quality of Besic, McCarthy and Lukaku. When that happens I'm looking forward to good things. In the meantime I'm keeping the faith.

Hopefully when Stones comes back we will be a bit more fluent out from the defence.

What we really need is 2 or 3 special players, another central defender, a creative midfielder and a winger.

But...!

But Jim, the crowd were booing the constant taking of the safe option. We want to see attacking football and risk taking in the right areas of the field. We cost ourselves goals and points by failing to do some absolute basics of football.

The free kick 35 yards out that ended up back at the goalkeeper sums up this problem. As supporters Evertonians expect their team to try to score. This will sometimes mean losing the ball, and sometimes it will mean playing a high risk ball such as (dare I say it...) cross into the box. If their team is obviously not trying to score goals, then Evertonians not only have a right but a duty to boo and it's got nothing to do with being 'paying customers' but because they are knowledgeable football supporters.

Saints have a right problem on Saturday due to suspension of Wanyama and Sniderlien, and we will tonk them as well, and all in the garden will be rosy again.

I couldnt agree more

If we were playing football manager, I dare say I’d splash the cash and get one of these technical #10’s, but the reality is we haven’t got the budgets of these teams who buy trophies. I know you said we could play Miralles there, but who do we play on the wing then... Atsu, Pienaar?? I don’t think so! So while I’m not totally disagreeing with what you say. I think there’s 3-4 players I’d start criticising before Naisey, who has been one of the seasons better performers.

Then there's the perm any 3 from 4 of Besic, McCarthy, Barkley and Barry. Add to that my own personal, not quite pet hate, more like a big question mark of do we actually need to 'waste' 2 out field spots on a defensive MidFielder.

3 at the back might, IMO, go some way to solving this.

While absolving Baines and Coleman from too many defensive duties, It also means (to me) only 1 DMF.

This will give the attack / defense numerical balance so beloved of technical purists... 6 : 6.

Back 3, a DMF, 2 Wingbacks in defensive mode; 6

2 Wingbacks, 3 MF, Striker; 6

With 3 at the back and a minimum of 1 up front, the remaining 6 will flux, flow and permutate from 1:5 through to 5: 1 in all manner of numbers in between.

Three 6's, ooh er missus. Spooky maybe but it seems like a revelation to me.