Kenwright: Everton aren't a selling club and never have been

11/09/2015  175 Comments  [Jump to last]

Bill Kenwright has offered some rare public comments on the state of the club where he asserts that the retention of the likes of John Stones, James McCarthy, Ross Barkley, Seamus Coleman and Kevin Mirallas is evidence that Everton are not a selling club.

The Chairman and the Board have come under renewed scrutiny this summer as supporter activist groups have mobilised again with calls for them to step aside and allow an independent body to come in and try to sell the club.

Though the immediate catalyst for criticism of the Board's performance was Everton's comparatively small expenditure in the transfer market this summer, the likes of Everton Board Out members of which funded the banner that was flown above the St Mary's Stadium last month and who plan a second fly-by tomorrow before the match against Chelsea say that their beef is with the entire 16 years since Kenwright's consortium bought the club.

Nevertheless, media coverage of the protests has tended to dwell on the transfer aspect of the club's recent performance, an issue that the Chairman addressed through David Maddock's latest piece for The Mirror.

Were not a selling club. Never really have been," Kenwright said. "We got 26m for Lescott and I dont think anyone can argue with that. Fellaini, we got more than his buy-out clause. And Wayne Rooney? Ten years ago... Though we did everything to keep him.

The players, they want to be here. They want to play for Everton. Thats why we can keep them. We have a way of working, a philosophy, and the people at the club, they buy into it.

Read the full article at MirrorFootball


Reader Comments (175)

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Eric Myles
1 Posted 11/09/2015 at 07:17:37
Why only limit nett spend figures to the last 2 seasons? Why not mention the -㾼.5M in 2013-14? The -ٟ.812M the season before? The -㾸.5M in 2011-12? After all it's not only the last 2 seasons that we are complaining about but the whole term of this board.

Not to mention that the Club accounts show profit on player trading of 䀀M in the last 5 years.

And although there is mention of the failed KD stadium move as one of the criticisms, there's no explanation of why that should be absolved, and clearly no mention of the lies involved in the Desperation Kirkby fiasco.

So it just comes across as another Club sponsored puff piece saying "Be careful what you wish for, plucky little Everton."

Tony Abrahams
3 Posted 11/09/2015 at 07:24:57
Eric, I think it was Dylan, who sang that propaganda all is phoney.

I could put up with the smugness, if it wasn't for the lies. He makes me sick, especially the line about doing everything they could, to keep an 18-year-old scouser, that was destined for greatness.

If this was the case, Bill, can you tell us why John Stones is still an Everton player?

Phil Sammon
4 Posted 11/09/2015 at 07:28:36
Blue Union retweeted this earlier. Yeah, I'm on Twitter, don't tell anyone.

Somebody replied,

'What sanctimonious shite. It's as if BK wrote it himself.'

Couldn't put it better. It was like a scripted press release cherry picking the positives from years of chaos.

Tony Abrahams
5 Posted 11/09/2015 at 07:30:48
I actually agreed with the sales of Lescott and Fellaini, but it's just so false. Why fail to mention a certain little Spaniard who left in the last hour, for the good of the club he said?

Eric Myles
6 Posted 11/09/2015 at 07:42:28
Tony #2, it was mentioned on another thread that because BK has told so many lies it's impossible not to immediately think that anything he says is a lie.

He's become 'The Chairman Who Cried Wolf'

Peter Mills
7 Posted 11/09/2015 at 07:48:43
I read the article on the Mirror site before tuning in to TW and thought "Oh well, that should address everyone's concerns........"
Joe Foster
8 Posted 11/09/2015 at 08:10:00
Not a selling club indeed. Why not sell the club, BK? Not one Evertonian believes a word of it. More fly-byes for you, old son.
Gary Willock
9 Posted 11/09/2015 at 08:12:51
To be fair, with the media quiet at the moment it's a chance for at least trying to change the impression that we are a selling club.

The fundamental point, however, is that we are certainly not an INVESTING club! Not in infrastructure terms anyway, and it is this FACT that is leaving us trailing a growing number of clubs, and has conveniently been skipped. Time to go.

Steve Guy
10 Posted 11/09/2015 at 08:43:35
"The natives are restless, what can we do? I know.... let's call a few favours in and get the Mirror to publish a nicely scripted puff piece that re-writes history to reaffirm Bill as the saviour of Everton. We couldn't be in better hands. The players love it here and give up their earning potential just to stay and bask in Bill's glory, etc."

No wonder I refer to him as The Dear Leader. Smug and patronising piece which the Mirror should be ashamed to publish. Never mind venting at Mourinho tomorrow, aim your ire at the Directors box!

Nick Entwistle
11 Posted 11/09/2015 at 08:55:58
And we're not really a buying club either, Bill.
Colin Glassar
12 Posted 11/09/2015 at 09:00:29
So Lazarus has resurfaced as he? I only read a few lines of his BS before I puked. "Everton aren't a selling club and never have been". Fucking shameless this fella.
Phil Sammon
13 Posted 11/09/2015 at 09:10:21
I sometimes think it's the way BK treats the fans that's his biggest crime.

It's not Coronation Street, Bill. You can't just expect a nodding dog audience that goes along with any plot. We do question things.

...Well, some of us do.

Dave Abrahams
14 Posted 11/09/2015 at 09:18:26
Come in, Martin, explain what Bill really means.
Nick Page
15 Posted 11/09/2015 at 09:46:06
And who remembers this drivel from a few years ago. My, how things have changed...oh, wait:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2035712/Bill-Kenwright-exclusive-The-pain-pride-owner-Everton.html

Ged Simpson
16 Posted 11/09/2015 at 09:51:31
Every football club owner will use spin to try and show their performance in the best possible light. Will do it even more when under attack. I cannot think of one transparent owner.

The thing that annoys me about this piece is the pathetic journalism. David Maddock at least spells out 3 criticisms but then fails dismally when he doesn't put them to BK. In fact if anything he tries to answer one of them for BK and selects an old quote re selling to further back him up. So I would email Dave Maddock
(mirrorfootballstaff@mgn.co.uk) or comment on their site.

I am no believer in the great conspiracy of money being squirreled away and I would probably try and put spin on my performance if I was BK.

That is how it will remain because if we have hope that through a few banners the fearless world of journalism will blow open the whole story....well think again. Not, and never will be, in their interests in this PL era.

Thomas Lennon
17 Posted 11/09/2015 at 09:54:01
For all those questions and doubts that are the right of shareholders and fans there are also undeniable positives. Many of those are in the article and perhaps objectors should be strengthening their cases by admitting they are real rather than blustering them away?

How many players we sold for many tens of millions of pounds have wanted to stay? How many put in a transfer request? Since Johnson sold Ferguson how many first team players have been sold against their will?

Perhaps the change that has happened in the last 2 years is the receipt of vastly improved amounts of money - which has been spent on players.

Our debt level (comparing like with like) is one of the lowest in the Premier League and achieved with no rich benefactor - 5th from bottom http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3016432/Club-club-guide-Premier-League-s-financial-health.html

Martin Mason
18 Posted 11/09/2015 at 09:58:44
He's right or wrong depending on where your prejudices lie. Buying and selling of players is a dynamic situation and sometimes avoiding selling is impossible. We're generally a non-European team and when we develop players as we do brilliantly some will want to go to clubs playing in Europe.

In general BK is correct in that we have kept our very good players (McCarthy, Baines, Stones, Coleman, etc.) and when we've sold it has been beneficial for the club. He's also correct in that we have bought at a higher value than we've sold over recent years and are thus a net buying club.

It's easy to look at the negative side, only at players we've actually sold and those we haven't bought in transfer windows but try to look also at the positive side of how well we've bought and developed even if we have sold. The unfortunate reality is that we have had to sell to survive at times but give some credit where it's due, we've kept a very good squad together over the last couple of years.

Dave Abrahams
19 Posted 11/09/2015 at 10:32:43
Thomas, Ged and Martin:

Why has he chosen now to make a statement? He has been quiet for the last twelve months, and now we've managed to keep Stones he's come out of his shell.

By the way, we've only kept Stones until next Summer at the latest; when he is sold will the money be used to buy players? and I mean all of it.

Martin Mason
20 Posted 11/09/2015 at 10:44:47
Dave, he was answering a question put to him by a journalist rather than making a spontaneous statement himself. Of course he'll use this platform to put a spin on an area he sees as vulnerable to criticism.

My feeling is that we can't keep a player like Stones, we're a step down from the level that this very talented individual needs to be playing at. Surely the club can't be criticised for selling a player we can't keep and it may be that he will go to Spain for a price much higher than Chelsea wanted to pay. This is massively win-win for the club and it won't weaken us that much. Our tactics weaken our defence far more than the loss of Stones would.

Ged Simpson
21 Posted 11/09/2015 at 10:52:19
Dave – why? Positive spin... as I said in my post.
Winston Williamson
22 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:05:38
I'm not against selling to buy in the interests of the club, i.e. if it is beneficial and silly money is being offered. It is the instances where we NEED to sell to balance the books that irk.

Additionally, if a story is to be told (such as this) it needs to be balanced otherwise it becomes an ego-massage for BK.

I've not met an Evertonian who has stated BK or the board are skimming money from the club, which is what the article refers to. Evertonians I speak to are worried our debt levels are increasing and we seem to be able to only purchase players by increasing our borrowings each season (in a time of extra Sky money). Additionally, the stadium issue.

Winston Williamson
23 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:08:51
Sorry, Martin, but you are making an assumption that the Journalist has called Bill to ask a question and that Bill has not arranged this interview himself.

I can counter your assumption with my own:- Bill called the journalist and asked for a piece to be written regarding Stones as it is a positive outcome which should be celebrated. See... my assumption is unfounded, same as yours.

Eric Myles
24 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:09:07
Thomas #15, I can't get to that link as the Daily Mail is blocked here, and they've just blocked it on my proxy. Can you tell me what it says our debt is please so I can rubbish it.

"He's also correct in that we have bought at a higher value than we've sold over recent years and are thus a net buying club." I'm afraid you're wrong there Martin as the Club accounts show the true picture that we have been a nett selling club for the last 6 years.

His use of 'the last 2 seasons' is a bit of a cheat as it includes this season which isn't over yet.

Eric Myles
25 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:12:08
Winston #21, I would bet your assumption is a lot closer to the truth.
Patrick Murphy
26 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:14:23
Doesn't sound like a man who is going to relinquish control now or in the near future. Of course his statement is full of holes but it is a statement that shines the brightest light on his tenure at the club and a statement that is intended to placate dissenters and his supporters alike.

If more ambition had been shown earlier in his tenure, then perhaps we wouldn't have to worry about losing our quality players at this point in time. Given our lack of ambition and cash, we should be happy with our lot and shouldn't overly criticise the club or its players or complain that Goodison Park isn't quite as good as we would like it to be.

Pragmatism is all very well and fans accepting things as they are is not a crime but will those same fans show patience if or when results start to mirror last season's? Of course not... they'll blame the manager and he'll be shown the door, but the real villain of the peace will remain in situ and the club will continue on the same path it has been on for the last decade or so. So far it has yielded one FA Cup Final appearance and one Champions League qualifier; don't expect too much more in the next decade would be my advice and be thankful that we continue to be members of the 'best league in the world' because that is broadly what our leaders deem to be success.

Tony George
27 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:17:33
We are indeed blessed!
John Keating
29 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:27:36
Martin,

Bill says we have never really been a selling Club and never have been.

You state categorically that we have had to sell to survive.

Can you back up your statement?

Winston Williamson
30 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:30:04
I agree, Patrick. He sounds as resolute as ever. Clearly a 'we shall not be moved' piece.
Martin Mason
31 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:30:56
Winston @20, balancing the books is in the interest of the club so the two options you list are the same thing.

I didn't make any assumptions on the interview.

Eric, EFC has been a net buying club for at least the last 5 years to the tune of £4M per year. Btw, these figures for me show positivity not negativity. We've steadily improved the size and quality of our squad with very little spending compared to our peers.

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/premier-league-last-five-seasons/transfer-league-tables/premier-league-table-last-five-seasons

Martin Mason
32 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:36:39
Patrick@24, how can BK get the players to perform when they are on the pitch? Surely the board can only provide the players and then it's up to the coaching staff how they play?

I believe that the board has done well in their purchases and that the club (board plus coaching staff) have done very well in developing players. How we play now is up to the manager and coaching staff not a stick that can be used to beat the board. All BK can do is sack the manager but the reality is that he is incredibly loyal for a modern chairman.

James Flynn
33 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:39:43
If you never believe anything a particular person says, can you call him a liar?

And does the timing of this article, and Chelsea in, mean Bill will be in his seat tomorrow?

Dave Abrahams
34 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:43:07
Ged Simpson (#19),

The question I asked was why has Billy come out now with this statement? Why, for instance didn't he make a statement when Chelsea first made an offer for John Stones and tell them Stones was not for sale, instead of letting his manager front up all the weeks Chelsea were pursuing our player?

Where was he then? Saying absolutely nothing.

Patrick Murphy
35 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:49:41
Martin, if you're satisfied with Everton having a nett spend of £4m per season for the last five years – which is half-as-much as Norwich who reside in 15th place in that table – then good for you, but surely a club that has never been outside of the Premier League should be doing slightly better than that?
Ged Simpson
36 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:52:16
End of transfer window. To offset disappointment.
Ged Simpson
37 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:55:02
"If you never believe anything a particular person says, can you call him a liar?"

No - you may be obsessively paranoid and locked in a special hospital for the criminally insane.

Eric Myles
38 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:56:28
Martin (#28), those figures on Transfer League only show the figures published in the media for transfer values but looking into the individual seasons figures I bet you will see they quote 㿈 M for Lukaku, but did we really pay that much last season?

No we didn't is the answer, we paid ٧.5M for him. The true figures of profit on player registrations are shown in the Club accounts and they show profit on player trading of 䀀M in the last 5 years, meaning we have been selling a lot more than we have been re-investing.

Dave Abrahams
40 Posted 11/09/2015 at 11:57:03
Ged Simpson (33), Are you talking to me? If you are then he made the statement then to cover himself.
Winston Williamson
41 Posted 11/09/2015 at 12:04:05
Martin: "I didn't make any assumptions on the interview."

You at 18: "Dave, he was answering a question put to him by a journalist rather than making a spontaneous statement himself."

That would be an assumption - on the article.

Good financial management is in the best interests of the club, not selling your best player (without a replacement) to balance the books.

Colin Fitzpatrick
42 Posted 11/09/2015 at 12:06:26
Dave (#31), why has he come out now? He hasn't, it's a PR piece put together by Everton's spin department because tomorrow there's a protest, a plane and it's on TV. The thought that anybody thinks "he's answering a question put to him by a journalist" is laughable. As soon as I read what Maddocks had put his name to, I posted the following response (below). I'm amazed it's still up to be honest. I've had a previous run in with this guy; it was when I was with KEIOC... a piece he'd put his name to had to be taken down and edited due to gross inaccuracies. Oh well, easy money I suppose; mad of the Mirror to pay him.
Embarrassing David, you have previous as a journalist who, when called on, can be relied upon to put your name to pieces provided by Everton's PR dept, but could you at least have the decency to check the information you're being provided with? Where's the balance? Who said that protesting fans are claiming that "money Everton make from TV and commercial interests is being squirreled away"? Fans aren't, neither are they citing just one failed relocation, they're critical of soon to be three abortive attempts to relocate the club and an additional disaster to redevelop part of Goodison. With a little work you'd have discovered that the fans are protesting at not just the stagnation at Goodison but the apparent inability of the board to put forward any semblance of a plan to improve the situation. Your revelation that under Kenwright the average finishing position is 6th, which you describe laughingly as relative success, tells any Evertonian worth their salt everything; if you'd bothered to look, the average is 9th, exactly the same as the previous sixteen years which at least included eight trophies. How you accept a pay cheque for stuff like this is beyond me.
Eric Myles
43 Posted 11/09/2015 at 12:07:29
Martin (#29), you say "how can BK get the players to perform when they are on the pitch?" and "it's up to the coaching staff how they play?"

So would you agree that the statement made in the article "that prudent management can bring relative success, as an average finish of sixth during Kenwright's 16-year reign shows" has nothing to do with Kenwright as it states, but everything to do with the manager and his coaching staff?

Ged Simpson
44 Posted 11/09/2015 at 12:07:51
Of course, Dave. What I was saying in #14.

Not saying it is great to see by any means. Just that I don't know a club that doesn't do this fans / media manipulation. I reckon we are about mid to low in the media / fans manipulation league.

My frustration, as someone trained as one, is the pathetic journalism. But in the end they will cooperate with club owners as PL sells papers, subscriptions.

That is why I rarely get annoyed for long about the press anymore in anything they do. Would be akin to being a modern King Canute – especially post-Leveson.

Ged Simpson
45 Posted 11/09/2015 at 12:15:25
Bang on Colin (# 39)

Journos make a living from PR statements and press releases. Have written them myself and chuckled as they printed tosh I'd scribbled together.

Putting "Note to Editors" at the end and an embargo date and Bob's your uncle. Easy day for journo, bullshit supplied by me printed and news values out the window.

I think they now would say that the chance to comment online (as you have done) excuses them from doing any research or questioning.

Sad demise of a once good profession.

Gavin Johnson
46 Posted 11/09/2015 at 12:25:49
Where's the Arteta money, Bill?! Conveniently he forgets to mention that one.
Ste Traverse
47 Posted 11/09/2015 at 12:27:24
Bill is just basking in the 'glory' of us not flogging one of our prized assets for once.

Will he still be spouting that bullshit he's come out with when, as it seems likely, Chelsea come back with a bigger offer next summer and we then cash in?

No, he'll do the typical disappearing act and, as usual, get his stooges in the local and national media to stitch up the outgoing player while bigging up Kenwright into the bargain.

Seen it all before....

Harold Matthews
48 Posted 11/09/2015 at 12:27:51
Wouldn't bother reading it. I don't trust BK and that's it.
John Crawley
49 Posted 11/09/2015 at 12:49:32
Bill can take credit for one thing, he appointed Moyes and stuck with him. Moyes was the reason why the club stabilised in the league, he did this inspite of the lack of investment by the board, not because of it.

Everything else has pretty much been a complete failure. No long term plan, no investment in the infrastructure of the club, 3 failed ground moves, no improvement commercially, relying on offshore loans, the lack of transparency regarding the ownership etc.

Steve Guy
50 Posted 11/09/2015 at 12:50:11
Spot on Colin. Blatant PR ahead of hopefully a strong protest tomorrow.

To others posting on here.....you maybe prepared to justify the longest trophy drought in our history but I am not. I can remember a time when using the words "Trophy" and "Everton" in the same sentence wasn't a cue for laughter.

We don't have a pot to pee in; everything that isn't nailed down has been sold and still there are people prepared to defend this man and his tenure.

Ged Simpson
51 Posted 11/09/2015 at 12:51:43
"Wouldn't bother reading it. "

Best advice on this thread

Colin Fitzpatrick
52 Posted 11/09/2015 at 12:55:05
Ged #42, it is sad but I think some of the journalists I've met are decent; it's the system you describe and the editors terrified of litigation that's bringing it to its knees.
Ged Simpson
53 Posted 11/09/2015 at 13:12:40
You are right Steve (#46) and I bet other club's fora say the same, eg, some "forgotten" league champions: 1960 - Burnley, 1961 - Tottenham Hotspur, 1962 - Ipswich Town, 1969 - Leeds United, 1972 - Derby County, 1978 -Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa, Wolves, Huddesfield Town...

From 1993 - 2015 (that's 22 bloody years): 4 mega rich clubs (and one that was rich for a season):

Manchester United, Blackburn Rovers, Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester City

I am not justifying our Board but if PL stays as it is, the dominance by the mega rich will continue and nobody else will have the word "trophy" synonymous with their name.

As for playing to come 2nd, 3rd and 4th. Well that is the biggest con the PL has ever pulled to keep fans outside the top 4 interested. In the end even if you did get through CL qualifying, you may get a few quid but you would need to do it 5 or 6 times to start getting the pull and money of the top 4.

So whilst we may well all want a better Board, some investment, a better ground etc...in the end I am depressed to conclude we will still just be fighting clubs around 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th for the foreseeable future. There is too much vested interest for the powers that be to try and create a level playing field.

And that is a problem beyond our Board and lies with the PL and their media/TV mates.


Ged Simpson
54 Posted 11/09/2015 at 13:17:06
Colin, I agree – it reminds me of politics. The radical Councillor who becomes an MP and slowly becomes a toothless Yes-man as they climb that greasy pole towards a Minister's job.

Sure, litigation plays a part but a well researched piece with evidene can be protected from litigation. I think it is more they all drink from the same trough.

Eric Myles
55 Posted 11/09/2015 at 13:26:58
Ged #49 "So whilst we may well all want a better Board, some investment, a better ground etc... in the end I am depressed to conclude we will still just be fighting clubs around 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th for the foreseeable future."

But with the likes of Stoke, Swansea, Southampton, Leicester, Bournemouth and any other Championship newcomer outspending us year on year we will not be fighting for 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th but for 14th, 15th, 16th and 17th.

Kevin Tully
56 Posted 11/09/2015 at 13:30:27
Wow, 50 posts already. To be honest, pieces like this are becoming a little bit embarrassing, both for the club and the newspapers that print these 'stories.'

Does anyone at EFC think this tired old practice of wheeling out these old cliches have any effect on how people now perceive Bill & Co? Talk about damning with faint praise. "Perennial relegation strugglers." Really?

I'll leave it there. But, if I were to offer any advice to the the PR department at EFC, it would be to stop these ridiculous puff pieces; it does not put the club in a good light. It all comes across as rather amateur.

Kieran Kinsella
57 Posted 11/09/2015 at 13:44:15
We're not a selling club.

We didn't sell Pienaar when he was at the top of his game and our key man in the months after we hadn't sold Arteta on transfer deadline day.

We didn't sell Rodwell when he had broken into the England squad and was viewed as a potential star.

We didn't sell Gravesen midway through a season and risk our chances of a top four finish.

We didn't sell our future season ticket revenue to bankers in the Caribbean. Neither did we sell Finch Farm to the city.

We didn't sell our merchandising to the lowest paying bottom feeder to cut off distribution to the majority of fans.

Not to mention the previously discussed non-event sales of Rooney, Fellaini and Lescott. None of these things happened.

We are big bollers. We splash the cash. Hail Chairman Bill.

Eric Myles
58 Posted 11/09/2015 at 13:51:41
Kieran, you're right, we didn't do a couple of those things you mention but I agree with what you're saying, and it's true.
Martin Mason
59 Posted 11/09/2015 at 13:58:47
Come on guys, you know your bitterness is over lack of trophies. Very sad really, is that all we see as a measure of the success of a declining once great club? 6th in the best league in the world is pretty good and would see the vast majority of fans in the world wishing to swap with us.

We aren't Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea and active in the spending power league and we won't be unless we find a benefactor, not an investor, somebody who is willing to throw away a very large amount of money.

So what if we're a selling club or not, whatever the definition of that is? So what if BK framed an interview? We are where we are now; how are you going to get us out of it?

Oh yes of course, board out, sell the club in a fire sale, get a new board who has "ambition" and "a plan". You really couldn't make it up.

Steve Guy
60 Posted 11/09/2015 at 14:05:21
Martin #55. You are either being incredibly sarcastic or incredibly naive. I hope for the former but fear it's the latter.
Eric Myles
61 Posted 11/09/2015 at 14:12:15
Martin #55, it is not a question of how the fans are going to get us out of the shit the board has gotten us into, but a question of how the board are going to do it?

And that is the whole point of the protests, the Club has no plan.

And we didn't finish 6th last season.

Dave Abrahams
62 Posted 11/09/2015 at 14:33:04
Colin (39) thanks for your clarification. My fear tomorrow is that Kenwright will be in his usual seat and if he comes up on screen he will be applauded by large sections of the crowd, thus justifying himself to the media present.

This shouldn't happen but is more than likely to; I hope I am wrong.

John Keating
63 Posted 11/09/2015 at 14:44:39
Martin,

You can't just gloss over 16 years of lies and shit management and say we are where we are now so let's get on with it. You have doggedly defended the board and now you appear to accept they are not what you have been defending.

You have already insinuated Bill is a liar. Hopefully that's the first step on your recovery.

Ged Simpson
64 Posted 11/09/2015 at 14:52:28
Eric (51) : that may or may not be the case. You cannot be sure we will be fighting relegation and neither can I.

But a much better bet is we won't ever win the league with current PL set-up.

My point was really to agree that the Board can do better but to say some aspirations are well out of their hands (eg, winning league) for reasons I explained. So to some extent we do have to limit our expectations (if not heart felt hopes).

There is a balance to be struck between on the one hand seeing our club run well and achieving what it can and pipe dream expectations of us winning the league. We will have no hope of doing with current league set up.

So what are our realistic hopes? 4th? A cup? Good play? A new stadium?

All commendable but we play in a different league to the top 4 who play for the title and the rest of the Euro big boys who play for the CCL (who will inevitably form their own league one day).

I find no joy in that and to be 6th (or whatever is) is not something I will ever celebrate. Nor will I celebrate finishing 4th as the PL says I should. That is just celebrating a good payday – it does not mean we will win anything.

I never started going to matches as a little kid and being told to support good paydays.

Ged Simpson
65 Posted 11/09/2015 at 14:55:19
Dave (#60) - and that is their right to applaud. It begs the question, if things are so obviously wrong and the argument has been made so brilliantly, why are they still applauding ?
Phil Sammon
66 Posted 11/09/2015 at 14:56:32
Martin

That last sentence is hilarious. You view a board with a plan as some far-fetched ideal. Surely that's a minimum for any company director.

Eric Myles
69 Posted 11/09/2015 at 15:08:27
Ged #62, of course we cannot say we will be fighting relegation or not, my point was intended to illustrate that by standing still we are effectively going backwards compared to those newer teams in the PL that are determined to progress at our expense.

It just seems that with the ever increasing telly money the only aim of our board is to stay on the gravy train.

Bill Gall
70 Posted 11/09/2015 at 15:11:19
Martin #55 In your last paragraph , board out, sell the club in a fire sale,
get a new board who has "ambition" and "a plan'.

Does this mean you agree that the present board have "No Ambition" and "No Plan"

Phil Bellis
71 Posted 11/09/2015 at 15:18:47
Aaaargghhh! He's back!

"Just to say that I won't post again on this post or anything similar."

Martin Mason
ToffeeWeb, 10/09/2015

Joe Foster
72 Posted 11/09/2015 at 15:20:10
When BK took over he stated "he had a plan to take us back to a great club". Lies. This man would not know what a plan was even if someone handed him a document with "Plan" written on it.
Dave Abrahams
74 Posted 11/09/2015 at 15:26:14
Ged Simpson (#63) they will surely be applauding out of ignorance of the way the board have been running the club over the few years. No-one who has been reading on here about the way the board have been running the club could react in a positive way towards the chairman.

I of course rule out two or three and as you say they are entitled to act in any way they choose.

As a matter of interest, will you be applauding? I'd bet you will just smile at the reaction of the crowd.

Kevin Tully
75 Posted 11/09/2015 at 15:54:53
Would it shock posters to know that some supporters, who have had season tickets for over 20 years, don't even know who owns the club?

A guy said to me before the City game : "You would think Grantchester would put a few bob into the transfer pot."

I wish I'd never stumbled across ToffeeWeb, I could live in ignorant bliss along with a few others! ;-)

Eric Myles
76 Posted 11/09/2015 at 15:59:29
Kevin, I hope you gave them the web address of ToffeeWeb to enlighten themselves??
Eric Myles
77 Posted 11/09/2015 at 16:11:39
Martin, in another thread you stated

Martin Mason
510 Posted 10/09/2015 at 19:14:19
Jay@503, no I don't support lying.

So how can you support BK?

Joe Foster
78 Posted 11/09/2015 at 16:13:41
Welcome to the enlightened, Kevin.
Ged Simpson
79 Posted 11/09/2015 at 16:23:27
Dave (#70) - you would lose the bet in your last line.

But I don't therefore think I am an enlightened smart arse, nor, though I disagree with much of what he says, that Martin is stupid or that those who applaud BK at games (that they pay for) are ignorant.

Life and reasons for opinions are much more complicated than that.

Ged Simpson
80 Posted 11/09/2015 at 16:24:19
"Aaaargghhh! He's back!

"Just to say that I won't post again on this post or anything similar."
Martin Mason
ToffeeWeb, 10/09/2015

And there lies the foundation for debate...

Dave Abrahams
81 Posted 11/09/2015 at 16:36:38
Ged Simpson, I'm quite positive Martin isn't stupid and I wouldn't call anyone ignorant. I said ignorant of the facts that have been provided on this site for a long time.
Aidy Dews
82 Posted 11/09/2015 at 16:39:07
㿞m net spend in past 2 years? Why did they not mention that the sales of Fellaini, Jelavic & Anichebe contributed to more than half of that?! We didn't just throw that amount of money at the market, we had to sell to buy!

Plus, where were the Kenwright quotes on the failed things?

Then the Mirror have the cheek to say the new deals for players and us keeping the likes of Stones should be enough for us to basically forget the failings and stick 2 fingers up at the fans that organised the plane and used the banners! Fucking joke!

Dave Abrahams
83 Posted 11/09/2015 at 16:41:25
Ged (#76), just as I knew he would when I posted at (13), he just can't help himself, a bit like me.
Phil Bellis
85 Posted 11/09/2015 at 16:58:45
Ged, Martin doesn't debate - he pontificates, obfuscates and baffles*

He's the written-word equivalent of an out-of-body experience

*The above is not stated as a fact, rather a personal opinion dressed up as one

Anthony Washington
86 Posted 11/09/2015 at 17:34:33
Kevin (#70), a lad I know still blames the council for Kings Dock.
Ged Simpson
87 Posted 11/09/2015 at 18:10:34
Phil... love the last line. We all do that to some extent in debate.
David Greenwood
88 Posted 11/09/2015 at 18:13:19
Can't believe the post @56 above. Although perhaps I should after all the posts of the last fortnight or so. Incredible. If it looks like shit and smells like shit...
Alan Bodell
89 Posted 11/09/2015 at 18:14:46
For me, Kenwright is a star and we all have our opinions I know.
He has stated time and time again that he will let the club go to anyone who can improve us but no one has moneyed up.

Anyhow, let's batter them tomorrow, it'll be great to see Maureen's face with another defeat on him.

Ged Simpson
90 Posted 11/09/2015 at 18:27:51
Dave (81) ...me too and to be honest I was born a Devil's Advocate.
David Greenwood
91 Posted 11/09/2015 at 18:34:10
Don't want to call individuals out, but if we had Ferguson, Pep or even Maureen herself in charge, where would we be shopping for players? It would still be the loan and free transfer market, the odd player aside. Who is to blame for that?
Stephen Bird
92 Posted 11/09/2015 at 18:37:32
There is no bigger Evertonian than me says thespian Bill 8 times a day .

There fucking is Bill, thousands of us who pay to see our team .

I'm just one who pays 200 Quid a weekend, I've been going 50 years. Do the maths TV Bill, yes I'm a bigger Evertonian than you!!

How much of your own dough have you spent??

Denis Richardson
93 Posted 11/09/2015 at 18:53:38
Get the banner plane fueled up again and keep the pressure up.

Just his grinning picture makes me cringe..

Joe Foster
94 Posted 11/09/2015 at 19:08:58
BK loves to say there is no better Evertonians than him. But there is no such thing as a better Evertonian, we all are Evertonians. To try and put yourself as some kind of uber-Evertonian is weak.

In my younger days, I thought I was keeping the blue flag flying by getting my shit knocked in at away games in the '80s. I have no pride in this (but some good memories).

Basically put your money where your mouth is or leave. Too much time has passed and too many opportunities have been wasted.

Rob Halligan
95 Posted 11/09/2015 at 19:20:42
Denis #86. I've had a text today saying Bill Kenwright won't be there tomorrow, or indeed for the foreseeable future, as he is seriously, seriously ill. Hope you're still cringing, mate.
Paul Washington
97 Posted 11/09/2015 at 19:24:35
Re. the Maddock article in the Mirror today: absolutely brilliant propaganda. Any other teams fans' will be thinking, why are Evertonians moaning? Gordon Clegg comes out of this smelling of roses and there is a comfy picture of himself to boot.

Maddock is supposed to be a Merseyside correspondent. Well get out and bloody well find out why people are pissed off, David! This is the epitome of idle journalism. KD notwithstanding, no mention of the other too-numerous-to-list balls-ups on Gordon Clegg's watch.

David Maddock, if you were one of the journos on the Watergate case, Tricky Dicky would've got off with it!
Joe Foster
98 Posted 11/09/2015 at 19:25:36
Hey Rob instead of trying to make people cringe. He was obviously well enough to give this interview. No one one has actually said he is unwell. So what is your point? He may not be there tomorrow as the minority is now the majority and it might be embarrissing.
Rob Halligan
99 Posted 11/09/2015 at 19:32:34
I don't know how seriously ill he is, nor do I know who exactly done the interview. We all know how much the press twist stories. The interview could have been done via someone. Fact is he has been missing for sometime so I think we all need to back off just a little.
Martin Mason
100 Posted 11/09/2015 at 19:32:44
Bill@66, no I never said that.

Eric@72, I don't support BK.

Phil@67, I was asked a question it would have been terribly rude not to have answered and anyways you guys learn so much from me how can I not continue with my education programme?

Alan Bodell
101 Posted 11/09/2015 at 19:39:58
Everyone slagging Kenwright off, ok short memories folks, wasn't long a go we had Brett Angell, John Oster, get real ffs we are in a much better position now and until we get a big money buyer we are doing okay.

Okay, maybe not good for some but every supporter with every team wants better and just look back at the shite we had 10 years ago before you all start ranting.
Ged Simpson
102 Posted 11/09/2015 at 19:41:15
Love your last sentence Martin (92). About time there was some humour from the main protagonists.

And Joe (87), really agree there is no such thing as 'better' Evertonians. A few on here could learn from your wisdom.

Ste Traverse
103 Posted 11/09/2015 at 19:46:29
What I'm not looking forward to tomorrow (if it happens) is the camera focusing in on Kenwright if we go a goal up and the seals clapping, fueling his ego even further, and the media going into overdrive against the protesting fans.

This is exactly what happened against Villa after the first ever BU protest in 2011.

The pressure needs to be cranked up to boiling point against him and his useless board.

Ste Traverse
105 Posted 11/09/2015 at 19:49:32
Alan #93

Kenwright was part of the board when we had Brett Angell and John Oster so what's your actual point?

Tony Draper
106 Posted 11/09/2015 at 20:34:20
Alan @93 Please mate get up to speed !

Everyone in the EPL is in a much better position now and some "unfashionable clubs" even more so than others.

I see your Brett Angell (1993-1995) & John Oster (1997-1999) and offer you Per Kroldrup (2005-2006), Lie Tie (2003-2006), Simon Davies (2005-2007), James McFadden (2003-2008) & James Beattie (2005-2007).

John Malone
107 Posted 11/09/2015 at 20:40:17
I think a bit of perspective needs to be kept when giving an opinion on Kenwright. Love him or hate him, the fact is the team and the club is in a lot better position than when he took over. Granted we could and maybe should be in an even better position with regards to the stadium and honours won but we could so easily have been a lot worse off.

I see both sides of the argument but at the end of the day he is a Blue like us and unless a billionaire or a major consortium is going to pump money into us like Chelsea and Man City, I'd rather stick with who I know!

Alan Bodell
108 Posted 11/09/2015 at 20:41:04
OK Ste and Tony, my point is that we are a lot better than that era so what do you fellows suggest? Where is the big buyer?

It's fine you two crying for the big move upwards but where do you think it's coming from? Get real, boys.

Tony, there were some gems you showed there I'd rather forget — ouch.

Ged Simpson
109 Posted 11/09/2015 at 20:51:55
Alan has a point – do you really think there is a big buyer out there at present?

Tony Draper
110 Posted 11/09/2015 at 20:56:31
Alan, there really were some whoppers in the 2005-06 squad and is our current squad really so much better than the 2005-06 one containing Nigel Martyn, Mikkel Arteta, Tim Cahill, Matteo Ferrari, John Ruddy, Lee Carsley, Joseph Yobo and David Weir?

And so far as not being a selling club, we've sold our training ground, built a state-of-the-art one, and sold it. Sold our merchandising concession.

Our ground has had a few bangles and blingy fings slapped on it and that's it. Not ONE improvement, none.

Not a selling club?
Not a developing club!

Scott Goin
111 Posted 11/09/2015 at 21:05:06
Supporters often get over-concerned with net spend per window and should be looking at things as a whole. Wages and transfers should be combined to determine the spending of a club. A club coming up from the Championship will have far less of a wage bill so it might seem like they are spending more money. In reality, they are just spending the massive Premier League windfall which most other clubs like Everton are using for their wage bills.

Add to this, a team should only be spending money based on the club's turnover. That's just simple business. If you spend more than you make, you'll eventually wind up like Portsmouth. Supporters should not expect their owners to put up their own money without expectation of a reasonable return on investment. I'd love for a billionaire to come in, buy the club, and put down 100's of millions of his own money but that's not likely to happen. I'm not going to blame the board for running Everton like a business.

You may be thinking I'm a Kenwright apologist but that's far from the truth. I'm just trying to look at things from an unbiased perspective. This board has made many errors with regards to selling off assets and turning over merchandising/concessions for paltry sums. They don't seem to have the forward thinking mentality to improve Everton's turnover. The numerous failed stadiums and streams of bad debt are just the most noticeable of their bumbling efforts.

All that being said, we could be worse off. I truly believe that Kenwright loves the club and wants nothing but the best for it. He just doesn't quite know how to reach that goal.

As for his comments, I have no problem with what he's said. He's done some good here and I don't begrudge him harping on that fact. If you're expecting him (or the manager) to be bluntly honest or go off on a Mourinho-like rant, you're not being realistic. Everyone lies or stretches the truth.

Alan Bodell
112 Posted 11/09/2015 at 21:06:41
Tony, I realise you bleed Blue but have we sold Finch Farm? I didn't know that.

In my over 50 years of supporting, I've seen ups and downs and right now I'm not nearly at the depths of the past.

Tony Draper
113 Posted 11/09/2015 at 21:21:51
Scott @102 some well observed points especially re: the "upgrading" of existing players. Credit for valid original point (to my eyes at least).

Then, and I do agree with the prudent "only spend what you can afford" budget management. Even if this is pure common sense, it's still bloody solid logic. Although, a better run Everton should be able to afford much more.

I do not think there is a living breathing Evertonian of sound mind that doesn't utterly believe that Bill Kenwright is a devoted Evertonian, always has been and always will be.

What clearly is in dispute is whether he is a great, good, average, complacent, well-intended, lacklustre, rubbish, dangerous, deranged leader for the club. But, Evertonian or not performance is all.

Tony Draper
114 Posted 11/09/2015 at 21:27:16
Alan, YES, Everton sold Finch Farm and we how have a 50-year lease (I will stand corrected on the terms of the lease).

Link

And here also:

Link

Jay Harris
115 Posted 11/09/2015 at 21:41:09
John Malone, what criteria can you possibly claim that is better than when Kenwright took over except for the Sky millions being pumped in which is nothing to do with anything Kenwright has done?

Kenwright took over a net asset position, the club is now seriously in debt and has made losses for the majority of Kenwright's tenure.

GP is becoming dilapidated rapidly.

Dave Abrahams
116 Posted 11/09/2015 at 21:48:49
Alan (103), do you live away from Liverpool now?
Christy Ring
117 Posted 11/09/2015 at 21:51:46
You can see why BK is in theatre (a total laugh). The whole piece stinks. As for David Maddock writing it, to me he's a RedShite fan.

I'd love for Paul Gregg to tell the truth about the takeover and why he walked away .

Dave Abrahams
118 Posted 11/09/2015 at 21:52:00
Jay (106) you beat me to it, but I was going to ask John the same question you did.
Alan Bodell
119 Posted 11/09/2015 at 21:52:05
Tony, you are spot on mate, didn't know we had sold that and I'm pretty sure many other Blues never knew that either.You probably won't believe it but I'm a fucking shareholder.

anyway let's squeak a win against that heavily funded shite tomorrow.

Alan Bodell
120 Posted 11/09/2015 at 21:59:13
Dave, yes I moved for work but why that question mate? A Blue is a Blue, I go on foreign trips... do you? You asked me a personal question and I'm asking you one.
Tony Draper
121 Posted 11/09/2015 at 22:07:03
John @98 Sweeping statements my friend, but nebulous and without supporting facts, then you contradict yourself.

"The fact is the team and the club is in a lot better position than when he took over."
By which measures?

"Granted we could and maybe should be in an even better position with regards to the stadium and honours won but we could so easily have been a lot worse off."
So we aren't as well off as we could be then, are we?

"I see both sides of the argument ....... I'd rather stick with who I know!"
WHY?
In a crumbling ground, increasing debts, sold assets and winning no honours? Is fear of relegation our only raison d'etre?

If so, that's a bloody long way short of "Nil Satis Nisi Optimum", isn't it?

Dave Abrahams
122 Posted 11/09/2015 at 22:14:24
Alan (#111), I'm sorry if I offended you, I asked because if you lived in Liverpool it would be very surprising if you didn't know that Finch Farm had been sold.

Alan, you can live anywhere in the world and, yes you are right, you are still a blue. As to your question; no I don't go to many away games, due mostly to age.

Martin Mason
123 Posted 11/09/2015 at 22:20:14
The good thing that I see now is that my views, I believe, are very much the majority view among Evertonians. I also believe that even the most rabid anti-board proponents are also coming to realise that the views of people like me are fair and that they are in a totally irrational minority; that is that they are the problem not the solution. This site in many ways demeans itself by becoming a depository for the anti-board extremists to have their say, the only outlet that they have.

That isn't the fault of the site which excels in providing an open forum where now even apostates like me can raise a valid opinion. It is the fault of those who use the site to undermine the club.

Tony Draper
124 Posted 11/09/2015 at 22:34:46
Martin @114, once upon a time, the majority of people believed that the earth is flat; it wasn't, it isn't.

Once upon a time, the world land speed record was 30 mph; it isn't any longer, it's a bit faster.

Once upon a time, Everton was known as "The Millionaire's Club"; it isn't any longer.

Once upon a time, Goodison Park was amongst the finest football grounds on the planet; it isn't any longer.

Keep believing in this mixture of faded glories, myths and fairytales if you so wish, but where is the hope, aspiration and progress?

Pop back under your forest bridge and re-familiarise yourself with the club motto.

Patrick Murphy
125 Posted 11/09/2015 at 22:37:42
Martin - I don't mind you posting what you believe to be true, I don't even mind you writing stuff that is as contentious as the rest of us. What I do mind and vehemently so is the high-horse attitude you take against those of us who dare to question the people in charge.

I'm just an ordinary Joe who happens to take an interest in all aspects of the club; I'm not an expert, I'm not a qualified accountant but I am entitled to my opinion and I don't take any pleasure in condemning fellow Evertonians. I urge you to rethink your latest post — In what shape or form can a few disgruntled Blues be responsible for undermining the club?
David Greenwood
126 Posted 11/09/2015 at 22:43:34
Have you read the six or hundred seven posts along these two threads? On what level are you possibly speaking for a majority?
Alan Bodell
127 Posted 11/09/2015 at 22:47:16
Dave, no offence taken, mate, but I never knew we had sold Finch Farm.

A bit quick off my seat there, that lease thing will be there when I'm gone.

Andrew Laird
128 Posted 11/09/2015 at 22:47:25
Martin Mason: "the thinking man's pseudo-intellectual".
Dave Abrahams
129 Posted 11/09/2015 at 22:52:45
Martin, you'd have been brilliant in " Monty Pythons Flying Circus".
Steve Guy
130 Posted 11/09/2015 at 22:53:32
Martin, who told you that you speak for the majority? Utter unfounded tripe. You speak for yourself and 99 per cent of your contributions are without foundation in fact.

Well done though, the Dear Leader relies on supporters like you to maintain any semblance of credibility. Take the blindfold off and look at the facts, a bust regime dragging us down financially by stealth to further their own selfish ends.

Trevor Peers
131 Posted 11/09/2015 at 22:55:58
Martin that smug look on BK face speaks volumes about your hero, self satisfied beyond reality, bailed out by Sky tv.
He got lucky, we the fans have been robbed of something special, a new stadium at the heart of the city, and all the increased revenue, and new ownership, that would have enabled us to compete at the very top level.
Shame on you, and your dogma.
Dave Abrahams
132 Posted 11/09/2015 at 22:56:29
Alan (118) fair enough.
Andrew Laird
133 Posted 11/09/2015 at 22:57:05
Alan, I urge you to keep digging and then ask yourself what a buyer would actually get if he bought the club? The ONLY assets are the players so the board are completely culpable in not making Everton FC an attractive business proposition.

But they don't want a buyer, they want INVESTMENT, a bit like a nice offshore loan related at ridiculous interest rates...

The club is a commercial shambles and, the more fans that wake up and see through the lies and propaganda, the better the clubs future can be. Redshite Peter Johnson built the Park End... what has Blue Bill actually done?

Gavin Ramejkis
134 Posted 11/09/2015 at 23:08:01
Evening all, long time no posts, work and a myriad of other things. Anyhow drawn back to TW like a moth.

Good thread with a predictable apologist thrown in. I have spent months educating the Evertonian masses elsewhere, some corkers like the "Why doesn't Grantchester do more on the board" etc etc and a cracker from US guys who believed that because Earl had bought them drinks he was a lifelong Evertonian, you couldn't make this stuff up if you tried.

Myths like the mortgage Bill Jong Ill took out and the sterling work of Watchedtoffee are all there to be found if you try; sometimes you have to take time off after listening to some of the droning rubbish regurgitated by some supporters who simply refuse point blank to see what's going on right before their eyes.

I love Everton and I want a better Everton and will continue to educate and protest against this fraud and his carpetbagger mates until the day the door at Goodison hits them on the arse on the way out.

The propaganda machine of Everton PR and how it's timed and operates was laid out in glorious technicolour during the Rossgate emails so you can even set your clock to when to expect current or ex-players to churn out some guff and the fraud to lean on his media buddies to churn out coats-for-goalposts fawning selective garbage.

Tony Abrahams
135 Posted 11/09/2015 at 23:19:10
Ged @ 94, then 100. There might not be such a thing as a better Evertonian, but I'm sure, if the price was right, then even the self-proclaimer, wouldn't have trouble finding Everton a buyer.

Brent Stephens
136 Posted 11/09/2015 at 23:25:54
Mason #114 "The good thing that I see now is that my views, I believe, are very much the majority view among Evertonians. I also believe that even the most rabid anti-board proponents are also coming to realise that the views of people like me are fair and that they are in a totally irrational minority;"

Haha!! What evidence do you have that your views are those of the majority of Evertonians?

No answer will come the reply. And so we will move on to the next thread and the next windup. TW has become really entertaining in the international break! Thanks you.

Alan Bodell
137 Posted 11/09/2015 at 23:30:23
Andrew, I see the frustration pouring out of you mate but again I ask where is the investment coming from?

We have Kenwright who is one of us and is struggling to sell but do you want any Joe mincing in with a payoff and interest?

I'm proud that we haven't yet sold out to Yanks or Arabs but, if the right deal comes, then great.

Jay Harris
138 Posted 11/09/2015 at 23:37:30
Welcome back, Gav, long time since you've posted but I thought this nonsense might get you going.

I was tempted to invite you to meet for a pint when you were in Orlando with the family last year but it would have spoiled your vacation.

I am beginning to think that our old friend and pal of Chairman Bill from Maghull has morphed into Martin Mason.

Karl Masters
139 Posted 11/09/2015 at 23:39:52
Did anybody hear about the expose on a Club employee posing as a 'typical fan' ringing in to a Collymore phone in on TalkShite to say what a marvellous job Bill was doing?

I say expose because The Sun of all papers flagged it up as a Merseyside journalist apparently recognised this member of the Media team, and called them out at the next Press Conference where the startled employee's red face said it all.

There are clearly no levels the Club won't sink to to deceive its own fans. Very sad.

Brent Stephens
140 Posted 11/09/2015 at 23:40:23
Jay, "our friend from Maghull". Goes by the name of Tony?
Paul Hewitt
141 Posted 11/09/2015 at 23:57:04
I'm not on here to defend BK. But can people remember what it was like under Johnson? An ageing squad and no money to spend at all. BK ain't perfect but we are in a much better place now than before he took over.
Gavin Ramejkis
143 Posted 12/09/2015 at 00:13:36
Hi Jay, great to see some of the guys still posting and going strong, hardly ever turn down a pint with a fellow bluenose.

Oh the good old days of Desperation Kirkby and the club plants posting almost verbatim the sales pitch for Kirkby and the lies one by one, churning them out even after every single one had long been debunked by the KEIOC guys.

Alan Bodell, you want to hold your horses there a bit with the "sell out to a yank" line; hmm... and where does the second largest shareholder Robert Earl live then (I have to say he's just a front for BCR)?

Jon Cox
144 Posted 12/09/2015 at 00:33:29
It's political; divide and rule....

Gavin Ramejkis
145 Posted 12/09/2015 at 00:43:52
Karl the outing was no less than Mo Maghazachi Everton Senior Press and PR Manager claiming to be Everton fan "Mike" yes indeed no depth they wont go to but plenty of us already know that from years of witnessing it.
Mike Morris
146 Posted 11/09/2015 at 01:20:27
Ged Simpson @ 50 put some good words together and most posters on here would agree that we have a really promising squad at present.

It is highly likely John Stones will leave our club within 6 months (hopefully a lot longer). But the lad is still here, hopefully playing today against a small club who happen to have a lot of money. Let's face it, 15 years ago, if somebody mentioned 'Chelsea' you thought 'Bun'!

I fully accept that anybody has a right to fly a plane and banner within the laws of the land. However, I believe if this happens today – before the game – it will be a major negative. We can turn over this Chelsea side and upset the chosen tit, but the 326 away people will find voice and John Stones may be completely convinced his future lies elsewhere.

On a final note, I believe Bill Kenwright has been quite ill in the last few weeks... I don't know for certain, but could that be a reason for silence?

David Johnson
147 Posted 12/09/2015 at 06:08:47
"Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state


To submit a message for the Fan Board section of the programme, please email Evertonprogramme@trinitymirror.com.

Winston Williamson
150 Posted 12/09/2015 at 10:06:26
I finally agree with Martin. He's doing a fantastic job of educating fellow Evertonians. I urge him to continue as he conveys a certain message which truly opens the eyes of the ignorant.

One of Martin's comments is worth a hundred comments of an opposing view in highlighting the true position of our club!

Keep it up, Martin!!!

Ste Traverse
151 Posted 12/09/2015 at 10:16:48
We've been a selling club for years. Within 18 months of BK and his so-called 'friends of Everton' acquiring our club, they flogged Ball and Jeffers for big money when, at that time, they were highly rated young players.
Andrew Clare
152 Posted 12/09/2015 at 10:22:27
Up until say 25 years ago, Everton were one of the biggest clubs in the country with a trophy haul to match anybody and massive support. Then we went through a succession of mediocre managers appointed by a directionless board with no plans for the future. Our once magnificent stadium is crumbling before our eyes and our only ambition is a good cup run and fifth place.

To me, that is failure and it is time for change. Where that change comes from, I don't know... but I do know that we are going nowhere with Kenwright and Co.

Mike Childs
153 Posted 12/09/2015 at 11:34:38
Hopefully we have the same results as the last time they/we flew the protest plane. I seriously doubt BK shows up and if he does they'll pipe in the cheers.
Martin Mason
154 Posted 12/09/2015 at 12:04:23
Winston@137, you got it :-)

Andrew@138. I would really love to see a change of direction for the club which at least sees us reach our historic potential if not our current resource based potential. I hope that you don’t mind me asking a question but how do you see that this could be achieved?

How do you see a transfer of ownership being effected and in such a manner that the incoming owners will put in the amount of money that we need not only to solve the ground problem (𧶀M) but to continually spend enough money to improve the squad to the level required to challenge the top clubs (maybe 㿞-100M a year net)?

How would you see a new board which works under the same revenue constraints (living within income) as the current board, improving the fortunes of the club?

It’s a question I ask myself and I have no real answer because I’m not sure there is a quantifiable one. Sell more shirts, get a better sponsorship deal? Not really, our merchandise sales and sponsorship deals are based on our weak brand status and the only way that this’ll change is if we get winning TV exposure in big European competitions.

Heysel was Everton’s tragedy because we would have been in that position. Can a side like ours ever again rise to the status of that wonderful side in the modern EPL like Villa, Ipswich and Forest once did? I personally don’t think so.

Regarding your 25-year timescale, the club had a lot of history in 1990 but were in really bad shape and the EPL exposed that reality very cruelly. I’ve seen two ground improvements since I started watching in the late '50s and otherwise the club has been tragically starved of infrastructure investment by every board. Has this tragic decline been the fault of our current board? Answer that honestly to yourself.

Eric Myles
155 Posted 12/09/2015 at 12:23:55
Martin (#140), why do you think that solving the ground problem will cost £200M? Can you provide details of the costings that lead you to that conclusion?

Bear in mind that the Club proposed top spend £78M on a stadium in Kirkby so please explain how your stadium design differs from that proposed for DK and where the additional costs from your design come from.

Thanks in advance.

Eric Myles
156 Posted 12/09/2015 at 12:29:28
I've had a quick look at the Club accounts back to 2005 and they show only 1 year where we spent money on player registrations which was the sum of £402,000 in 2006.

Over the period from 2005 until 2015, 10 full years, we have made a profit on player trading of £124,868.

Eric Myles
157 Posted 12/09/2015 at 13:49:19
Sorry that's £124.868 million profit on player sales in 10 years.
Tony Abrahams
158 Posted 12/09/2015 at 15:41:22
Today showed us that we would have been daft to sell Stones, the kid was outstanding, and would have been a snip for Chelsea at that price.

Every club sells players at some stage, but with Kenwright in charge, the only value we have is out on the pitch. We are built on quicksand, and must change the way the club is ran before the Sky gravy gets diluted.

Martin Mason
159 Posted 12/09/2015 at 15:41:53
Effectively balanced. Perfect dealing.
Christine Foster
160 Posted 12/09/2015 at 18:17:25
Martin, many of your comments would make a sensible rebuke if it were not for the fact you are missing very salient points in the management of this once very successful club.

You fail to accept that the duty of a board is to act in the long term interests of the club, that's company law btw, irrespective of public or private ownership, and that the long term future viability of a company is ensured through adequate funding and a sustainable business model. The failure of the board to do either or put right any alleged board inadequacies from 15 years ago has put the club in the very real constraints you refer to currently.

We should never have been in such a position in the first place and that directly relates to the period of time when BK and his cronies acquired their shares. It has been suggested that the incumbent debt was a leveraged purchase where a significant amount of the monies paid for shares are transferred to a debt in the club. If so, it would compound your financial issues and restrict access to funding.

The result of 15 years of self-interest management as opposed to sound management has left the club with no assets, all sold to pay operating costs. They made a rod for their own back and yet you continue to ascertain they have managed the club well.

Martin, they have lied to fans and shareholders alike, they have been subject to criticism from a government enquiry, they have refused to answer legitimate concerns in relation to their promises and actions... yet still you profess they have done well.

There are two very real aspects at play: the team and its manager; and the influence decisions made have at a board level on the team.

Success is dependent on the right manager, sufficient funding in place to put a team together. Irrespective of the former, without funding, success will never happen. If your measure of success is survival, then we sold the house and survived.

The elephant in the room fails to acknowledge the very reason we have only survived has been because of the failure to find a sustainable funding model to begin with. That some believe we should thank the board for this lack of action is frankly absurd.

I support a great team, a great life-long love affair... but the running of the club means I cannot and would not support the management of the club based on its honesty, integrity, transparency and treatment of shareholders and fans alike. Trust in a love affair is critical. Use and abuse that trust and it's over.

John Keating
161 Posted 12/09/2015 at 21:39:51
Excellent post, Christine.
Ian Riley
162 Posted 12/09/2015 at 22:03:43
All the players we sold wanted to go! The chairman needs credit for his negotiations. Unlike the richer clubs in the league, our chairman cannot bankroll the club. Clubs are in a different league with salaries and sale fees. Twenty five years ago, there was a level playing field. The Premier League is a brand world wide with billionaire owners. Sadly that's what we lack.

The club thirty years ago was in a position to crack Europe but unfortunately that did not happen. We will never know how costly the ban hit Everton but it made some impact. The chairman has the club interests at heart but football is a different animal now.

Unless a new owner or investment comes in, our expectations will remain limited. I actually think the the club has overachieved with the investment put into the squad over the last fifteen years. How do I base that on? Look at Tottenham, Aston Villa, and Liverpool. Hundreds of millions spent and are any of those any teams ahead of us?

The chairman has done well with the Sky money given to him. What would annoy me is if we were in massive debt! The squad dosen't reflect that.

Dave Abrahams
163 Posted 12/09/2015 at 22:18:22
Ian (151) have a look at Christine's post at (149) you might learn something.
Ian Riley
164 Posted 12/09/2015 at 22:44:10
Mr Abraham's, I agree with some of Ms Foster's comments but we are forgetting something. The chairman can do what he likes! Not many takers when he bought the club!

Sadly we are fans and that's all. Unless anyone buys the club, there's no point worrying about it. I support the team because I have no control over the boardroom.

John Keating
165 Posted 12/09/2015 at 22:45:47
Ian,

Even the Chairman's biggest supporter has acknowledged we have sold to survive. We own nothing; everything is mortgaged. We are borrowing millions from offshore sharks. The ground is a disgrace and none of the board give a shit.

Dave Abrahams
166 Posted 12/09/2015 at 23:43:23
Ian (153) yes, the Chairman can do as he likes, and he does. I don't worry unduly and I'll always support the team, they come first. It doesn't mean we have to support this psuedo-Evertonian of a Chairman.
Andrew Laird
167 Posted 12/09/2015 at 23:46:32
Alan (#128), the investment won't materialise because no control is on offer and Everton as a business has NO assets and a dilapidated stadium. I wish Kenwright was a Red because then fans like you would see through his bullshit and take him to task without falling for his "I'm a Blue" guff; it is a shame that some are so easily swayed with a couple of card tricks and a "be careful what you wish for".

I ask again, Peter Johnson built the Park End... What has Kenwright done, on his watch, to make Everton a saleable business? Research it yourself on this website and you could answer your own questions.

Eric Myles
169 Posted 13/09/2015 at 02:37:41
Ian #151, you say "Unless a new owner or investment comes in our expectations will remain limited" and that's exactly the view of those who want this board out, and the reason why.

You also say "What would annoy me if we were in massive debt" Is £107 million (90% of our income) and rising each year, not massive enough for you?

Ian Riley
170 Posted 13/09/2015 at 09:25:57
Mr Myles, I agree the club is playing roulette with staying in the Premier League. Thank God for the Sky corporation or we would be in something smelly. However, I don't know how much the club is up for sale for or is it? Are the other board members prepared to sell? Is the club worth buying? The ground needs redevelopment or relocated. Sadly the fans will have to wait till the chairman retires till he sells the club.

Are many clubs in the Premier League playing the same financial plan? In debt with banks waiting for the cheque from Sky to cover the overdraft? Who knows? All we can do as fans is support the team.

I know this may annoy people but I do think the chairman has done his best. Sadly, I like to think the best of people. He needs to hand the batton on now to a younger owner with innovation to move the club forward.

Winston Williamson
171 Posted 13/09/2015 at 12:14:57
Great post, Christine!
Eric Myles
172 Posted 13/09/2015 at 12:20:44
Ian #158, you can call me Eric, no need for formalities on here.
Martin Mason
173 Posted 13/09/2015 at 12:43:04
Christine, Eric, etc., I'm done with circular arguments sorry.

I'll look in to see if anybody adds anything new to the debate or if anybody ever actually proposes sensible solutions rather than constantly moaning about a club that is actually doing quite well despite its massive failings.

Christine Foster
174 Posted 13/09/2015 at 18:10:40
Martin, not done with you yet. Circular argument be dammed. I assume therefore that you believe that the lack of a business plan is also reflective of a well run business and that other shareholders don't need to know what you are doing with their money!

Exactly how we arrived to be a club with no assets or business plan that's been shown to its shareholders is paramount to the future of this club. The board got lucky big time with Sky monies and we would most certainly hit the wall had not new Sky monies come in. The banks controlled everything to do with expenditure, even transfer monies, remember the best little Spaniard?

The board failed to secure investment, failed to put their own money where their mouth was and refused to dilute shareholding. Commercially we have failed to take advantage of our historic and current standing in the Premier League, we most certainly could have done better.

Most boards have to live within a 3-year timeframe to achieve results or objectives. The point being this board have yet to state objectives, never mind a plan to do it. Survival is not enough for success. The bus has terminated.

Brent Stephens
175 Posted 13/09/2015 at 18:45:22
Martin #161 "a club that is actually doing quite well despite its massive failings."

I'm not sure I've seen a statement from you of what these "massive failings" are (as I'm not sure you've used that term before). Could you just set them out, please?

John Keating
176 Posted 13/09/2015 at 19:15:13
Martin

Is one of these massive failings you mention the fact that we actually do have to sell to survive, thereby showing yet again Bill's "misconception"?

(I didn't want to say 'lie'.)

Andrew Laird
177 Posted 13/09/2015 at 19:29:20
Why are you doing it to yourselves? Articulate, considered and eloquent questions all put to a smug wind-up merchant, who has no answers himself but expects everyone else should, all the while whilst failing to grasp the most basic of premise if it contradicts his "the earth is flat" mantra. I imagine this was written about people like him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGex0kLgNok
David Greenwood
178 Posted 13/09/2015 at 19:33:10
Quality post, Andrew. The link is excellent as well.
Tony George
179 Posted 13/09/2015 at 19:36:55
Andrew, I suspect the windees are getting as much fun out of these exchanges as the winder-up-in-chief. It started off as 'all on to Kenwright' now it's lost it's purpose and Martin Mason is the enemy.

Wake me up after another 500 posts!

Christine Foster
180 Posted 13/09/2015 at 22:54:52
Tony, sadly it's not a pleasure responding, because Martin is not a wind-up merchant no matter how much his comments achieve the same result; they are well-held beliefs aired with well structured throwaways designed to belittle or be dismissive of facts. They give an appearance of credibility but never detailing answers to questions put.

He is a spin doctor trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Unfortunately some are taken in but responding to questions by mere deflection wears thin. Tuppence spent and sleep awaits.

Alex Doyle
181 Posted 14/09/2015 at 11:48:49
To all the Kenwright haters, can you name 3 better chairman in the league?
John Keating
182 Posted 14/09/2015 at 13:37:52
Peter Coates at Stoke
Huw Jenkins at Swansea
Steve Parish at Palace

Shall I go on..........
Guess what: they have all put their own money into their clubs.

John Keating
183 Posted 14/09/2015 at 14:46:14
Alex,

I have to say I do not hate Kenwright but I do hate what he has and is doing to our Club. For the world's greatest Evertonian to oversee the stagnation of our Club that we are witnessing, to have mismanaged the great opportunities we have had, and to instill in the support the mediocrity that many think we are fortunate to have is unforgivable.

Bill Kenwright has put not a penny into this Club... in fact, when things all change. I reckon we will find that the Club have given HIM his stash.

Alex Doyle
184 Posted 14/09/2015 at 22:16:09
I would agree on Huw Jenkins but Coates and Parish are coming from a much lower bar of expectation. Their fans are not complaining about their international fan reach, poor commercial performance or lack of new ground. Most of the Kenwright criticism seems to be based on personal dislike, rather than any substance.

Personally, I think the club is comparatively well run and don't want Everton to turn into Liverpool, Chelsea or Man City. There are other, better ways to run a club that don't involve selling your soul.

We won't win the league but our debt has been reduced and our squad is the best it has been since the 80's. This idea that Kenwright is some sort of leech because he hasn't sold the club or personally invested millions is ridiculous.

Eric Myles
185 Posted 18/09/2015 at 03:38:54
Alex, could it be that Stoke fans are not complaining about the lack of a new ground because their chairman has actually delivered them one??

And Palace have redeveloped their ground and are now looking at further redevelopment to increase the capacity by 50%, despite being in administration only 5 years ago.

Eric Myles
186 Posted 18/09/2015 at 03:40:51
And Alex, our debt has not been reduced, it has increased.
Eric Myles
187 Posted 18/09/2015 at 03:56:20
Christine #167, Martin is most definitely a troll. His posts never contain any factual content so he can never back up his opinion, he never answers direct questions, and when he is proven to be wrong he hides away only to pop up in a new thread spouting the same unsupported opinion that has been proven wrong previously. And so the cycle continues.
Andy Stone
188 Posted 18/09/2015 at 06:19:00
Every club in the world bar a handful are selling clubs: Barca, Real, Chelsea, Man City, PSG, and Man Utd. More tosh from the chairman, but hey, at least he is a Blue...

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