With Romelu Lukaku attracting attention yet again as he passed double figures for goals this season, Ross Barkley blossoming for club and country, John Stones continuing his mesmerically precocious form and Gerard Deulofeu emerging as one of the Premier League's most exciting talents, talk has turned to how the Blues can keep hold of their best players.
The manager feels that his squad is as strong as its been since he took over in the summer of 2013, with an important blend of youth, experience and depth, and he says that Everton "have to achieve" this season to demonstrate that progress.
“There are two things that can keep a player happy," Martinez said in the Liverpool Echo last Friday. "One is that he’s got a stimulation to become better and he can see that he’s growing every day and the other is to be in the best leagues and the best competitions.
“So you have to get into the Champions’ League, that’s the top and bottom of it. That’s why sometimes you have to set a season where everyone invests into the team and then see where that can take you, that’s what we’re doing now.
“I feel we are getting stronger. Over the last five windows we have been getting stronger by adding numbers, options and quality players and young players that become important. It comes to a point where we have to achieve and this season is very, very important for that.”
The Catalan is pragmatic enough, however, to acknowledge that Everton's current position relative to the biggest clubs in makes them vulnerable to losing their star players – although the enormous transfer values he is sitting on at Goodison that would cushion the blow aren't lost on him – which raises the importance of how you replace any departure.
[Y]ou need to be ahead of losing players or having to move them on," Martinez continued.
“As long as you end up with better options – when I say better options, I mean if you lose one player you get in two. You need to be able to be strong. I think now financially we are in a position that in each window we should be able to get stronger even if we lose players.
“What message would it send if we lost Stones, Barkley, Lukaku and Deulofeu? We are going to be the richest team in the world then!
"I think the message we are a football club that is working every day. Our recruitment system should identify players that can help us assemble a strong squad. That’s not a worry.
“I’m talking about creating a squad which isn’t just about finances, it’s also about manpower, focus and concentration and giving responsibility to inexperienced players and now I feel that this season we have to get the benefits of that.”
Reader Comments (120)
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1 Posted 26/11/2015 at 06:38:53
We are a very good side when we play high tempo, a side that can give any of them a game. It also suits players like McCarthy who is a far better player if the game is fast-paced rather than when he has got time on the ball on the half-way line. That sounds contradictory but it's true.
Same with Ross, in a fast-paced game he restricts himself to one, two or three touches max rather than trying to run at packed defences and overplaying.
It may be too early in our progress this season but we should believe we can get there.
2 Posted 26/11/2015 at 07:24:49
The chances of finishing top 4 are small given the competition (of course we can go for it). I'd rather we just finally win a trophy.
(Also remember finishing 4th doesn't even get you into the CL, all you get into is the qualifying and there's no guarantee of making it through that!)
Let's take each game as it comes and try and win the League Cup and go from there.
3 Posted 26/11/2015 at 07:40:19
4 Posted 26/11/2015 at 08:11:06
Most players will leave eventually, one way or another. The trick is replacing them. McGeady leaves, Hibbert retires, not really going to cause RM much grief. Barca comes back in for Deulofeu, Lukaku heads off to Europe or Stones grabs the big bucks from Chelsea, then we have massive holes in the squad which will be difficult to fill.
If we do well this season, then, perhaps, this all becomes academic. We have gone from one of the oldest starting 11, to one of the youngest, in two years. I hope they grow old at Everton... we shall see.
5 Posted 26/11/2015 at 08:55:34
Personally, this season I would be ecstatic with a League/FA Cup trophy and finishing among the European places. Hopefully, that would keep the circling sharks away for at least 1 more year. For that to happen, the squad needs to be utilised better otherwise, players like Deulofeu, Barkley, Barry, Lukaku, Kone, Coleman, McCarthy will burn out early. So, we as fans need to be understanding when RM tinkers with the team, sometimes even a winning team.
Bringing in players like Cleverley, Naismith (he had a hat-trick against Chelsea remember?), Mirallas, Besic, Lennon, Gibson, Galloway & Funes Mori (after Baines and Jagielka come back in), Browning, maybe even Pienaar and Osman for cameos, will be crucial to keeping the momentum going until the end of the season. It is now or never! COYB!
6 Posted 26/11/2015 at 09:07:16
7 Posted 26/11/2015 at 09:33:24
8 Posted 26/11/2015 at 09:50:00
9 Posted 26/11/2015 at 09:53:45
Yes, England gets 3 entries into the CL two years from now. But we confound everyone by finishing 3rd next season.
Unfortunately that year's CL winners are English but finished outside top 3 in the Prem, and would take our place instead.
And it would be the RS.
10 Posted 26/11/2015 at 09:56:51
11 Posted 26/11/2015 at 10:23:50
As stated, I think the decision of whether some of them stay or go will come down to whether we get Champions League but, if we do fall short and players leave, do we invest in the stadium and fill a large piece of the puzzle! I know this has been discussed in the past but, rather than having to clean out the whole club to do it, we could with potentially only 2-3 players.
Realistically it'll be a bit of both, I'd think, but I'm for the majority going into a new stadium and then reinvesting in young talent, playing the long game, which seems to be paying dividends at the moment.
12 Posted 26/11/2015 at 10:38:00
I've been struck with the mad notion that we should put in a £10M bid for Jack Grealish in January. He's been dropped by Remi Garde and won't be one bit happy about it.
I think he regrets declaring for England too and, as he hasn't pulled on the Three Lions yet. I don't see why he can't change his mind back and go to the Euro's with Ireland.
He would make an excellent long-term replacement for Pienaar on the left and would be another one to add to this golden generation.
13 Posted 26/11/2015 at 11:17:46
I think we are progressing really well and are very reminiscent of our first season with Roberto as Manager. Although now, we have a stronger squad as well.
I think last season, we lost so many players for such a long time it was bound to disrupt our play. Getting Geri on a permanent (hopefully!) deal was a master stroke and it's obvious that Geri, Ross and Rom like playing together. I think our football now is showing Jimmy Mac to be a quality player again and he seems to be enjoying his football and took part in the fast flowing move that resulted in a fabulous goal on Saturday.
I think that getting Ramiro was another great bit of business too. Thank heavens Roberto didn't listen to the advice of that bloody expert! Brendan is coming on a bundle and is another who is really enjoying his football and I think Gareth Barry has been exceptional so far this season.
We've also got a bench now, of quality players with the likes of Tom Cleverley, Kevin Mirallas eager to get on and Bainesy and Mo Besic just about ready to join as well.
It might be too big a task to get into the top four (but wait and see if we get anyone in January) but there are one or both cups to go for as well.
We will have richer clubs coming in for our players (that's always been the way in football) but I think we have a bunch of players who like playing under Roberto and like playing together. If we can get some success, and I see a Cup win as that, we will attract players, as well as having more chance of keeping most of the players we currently have.
14 Posted 26/11/2015 at 11:31:07
Obviously we all want to see the team progress; however, I believe that whilst the possibility of achieving 4th place or higher isn't out of the question, we all know that those clubs with huge funds will bolster their squads in January. We are unlikely to do so and that will likely scupper our chances.
It's a great shame because the team has so much talent but it will take another 12 months to become a top team; unfortunately the financial position won't help us to keep those players... unless of course the team surpass my expectations.
15 Posted 26/11/2015 at 11:43:35
About our players liking playing together, Roberto has got it right about bringing in ones with the right attitudes helping the team.
A great run of the last part of 2015, I only see it continue come start of 2016 and beyond with these players we have. Definetely the best squad we've had for a while!
16 Posted 26/11/2015 at 11:48:55
I fear Roberto is right: there's a lot of articles about Everton's stellar youth collection, in concert with the agents, they will be writing endless articles about how X is moving to Y.
Unfortunately, getting into the top 4 is as hard as ever. Even if Chelsea fail to improve (and it's not impossible for them to go on a serious run, they are only two wins behind us with many games to play) we still have to finish ahead of Spurs and RS, and, eh, Leicester.
By the middle of January, we will know if we are in the running or if the wheels have come off. I really hope we can hit a run of form, buoyed by recent good results and keep it up as long as possible. We are barely a 1/3 into the season and it's too early to say.
COYB and we'll see where the year takes us. Bournemouth for starters.
17 Posted 26/11/2015 at 12:06:56
This is a realistic statement.
Given the amount of defensive reinforcements being brought in recently in the shape of youth players I'd imagine that Stones is the most likely departure.
It's already clear that Chelsea are prepared to pay huge money for him so I'd say he'll be off next summer unless a Top 4 place is guaranteed.
Just on the number of Champions League places available, has anything actually changed or is there just a danger of it happening this year?
18 Posted 26/11/2015 at 12:07:24
19 Posted 26/11/2015 at 12:18:41
20 Posted 26/11/2015 at 12:36:47
What he is also saying is that, if any go, he wants to be in a position to improve the squad if a player does leave. It's no secret that John Stones put a transfer request in. He might well go in the Summer but I guess Roberto will have someone lined up (as well as Ramiro who he's already bedded into the team) to replace John.
To me, he's said there is no point in seeing Ross, Rom, Geri and John go and us just being a rich club (mind you, the Board might think it's Christmas!). I think he's already prepared for who he wants, should anyone leave.
As it is, we have an increasingly younger team with some top older players and we are progressing well. It will really be a massive factor if we can win the League Cup this year.
21 Posted 26/11/2015 at 12:36:55
22 Posted 26/11/2015 at 12:50:45
Of course he may decide to stay (who wouldn't choose Merseyside over Barcelona?) but I think only if we do get into the Champions League. Still, it is on the cards £ we have a stronger squad now than when OFM managed it.
23 Posted 26/11/2015 at 12:59:15
Totally agree. We look dynamite on counter-attack, and an early goal really opens teams up to our pacy attacks.
Similar to how the shite played 2 years ago, with a more solid defence, will see us up there. We really need to continue our momentum and win the majority of games between now and end of January it's there for the taking.
24 Posted 26/11/2015 at 14:36:57
Anyway, it seems as though one or two big names will be departing in the summer and three or four quality lads, already earmarked, will be brought in to make the present squad even stronger.
A gradual step-by-step progression to the kind of side Martinez has always envisioned. Whether or not he succeeds only time will tell but he certainly appears quite confident about it.
25 Posted 26/11/2015 at 15:16:11
26 Posted 26/11/2015 at 15:22:27
I think we all understand that it's going to be very difficult or impossible to keep some of the very best of our players at the club in the future. It's not only Champion League that's the attraction, it's also the lure of the extra wages that clubs the likes of Man City, Chelsea and Man Utd can offer them.
He's correct to highlight that we need to finish top 4 this season. I don't believe we are there yet, but if we are ever going to escape this "very good but not quite good enough" reputation, now's the time to bury it!
27 Posted 26/11/2015 at 16:37:56
The likes of Tottenham have taken a step up and Man City a big one, to help fill the top of the table, which we have done under OFM with limited transfer funds. We're still challenging, but slightly more than recently, as in now able to spend some money on quality players. So you're right about that the time is now to show we are a VERY GOOD TEAM.
We need to beat the likes of subtop clubs that have gone a bit ahead of us: Tottenham, with West Ham and Southampton, alongside Liverpool. I haven't checked their upcoming matches, but I believe we have an advantage, especially in the form that the lads are showing. Bring on the next!
29 Posted 26/11/2015 at 16:54:46
First the positive, "glass half-full" type (nice one, Ajay @5). Second, the negative, "glass half-empty" type (Patrick @14). Then there is the "who has stolen half my drink" type (step forward and take a bow, Denis @2). Worryingly he has a lot of sympathy. Who knows. Always look on the bright side of life I suppose...
Personally I am hoping I have to eat my hat in response to my severe criticism of Roberto last season. I just hope someone doesn't put any doo-doo in it first! COYB
30 Posted 26/11/2015 at 17:01:06
Seriously speaking, would a Lukaku, Stones or Deulofeu rather scrape into the Champions League with Everton and have zero chance of winning it (probably little chance of even getting out of the group), or play in the Champions League with a Barca, Bayern, PSG or other established Champions League team? Even if we finish 4th, any large bid for them and they'll still want to leave, it's human nature.
The message to the players should be simple: you're at Everton and until you're somewhere else you focus 150% on us, end of. I remember the days in the past when any player saying in the press he'd like to play in the Champions League was slated for not being 100% focused on us. Now the manager is even condoning that type of thinking publicly. There are simple diplomatic ways to answer these obvious questions: one game at a time, focused on immediate future, will deal with what happens when it happens, best players not for sale, etc etc... But no we have to come out with this nonsense because RM is incapable of keeping it simple. Afterall, we can still say NO to any bids even if we don't make the Champions League.
If we make top 4, it will be a great achievement, don't get me wrong, but that's only the very beginning. Even IF we make it somehow into the group stages, our ranking is so low we'd be in a group with at least two (if not three) of the top seeds does anyone really think we can go toe to toe with Bayern or Barca? Look at Man City and how many years it's taken them to just get out of the group stages. The Champions League is totally different to the Premier League and making 4th should not be the be-all and end-all, it's just the first (hard) step on a long journey.
All our staff and players need to focus on Everton, regardless of where we may or may not finish come May. Obviously ambitious players will want to play at a 'higher' level but let's not publicly tell them it's okay to bugger off in the summer if we finish 5th or lower (which will likely be the case).
All players will leave at some point and if we get silly offers we should sell, regardless of Champions League qualification or not, assuming we have or can get decent replacements. It should not be contingent on Champions League qualification.
I personally don't give a shit that we finished 4th in 2005 as it meant nothing in the end. I do however still have fond memories of Paul Rideout's header in '95 and us lifting the FA Cup....
31 Posted 26/11/2015 at 17:01:14
For one, he isnÃƒÂ¢Ã‚â‚¬Ã‚â„¢t that good: loses the ball after not releasing it sooner; and two: he is a disruptive influence we donÃƒÂ¢Ã‚â‚¬Ã‚â„¢t need.
I wouldnÃƒÂ¢Ã‚â‚¬Ã‚â„¢t take him on a free Ã‚â€“ and as for making the England team... donÃƒÂ¢Ã‚â‚¬Ã‚â„¢t make me laugh.
33 Posted 26/11/2015 at 17:04:40
We have some experience in Barry, Baines, Jagielka etc but our squad is simply not good enough for the Champions League once you look past the first XI. The Europa League virtually crippled us; we need to add a top class goalkeeper and a creator of the Banega, Yarmolenko ilk and only then we can start to think about it.
34 Posted 26/11/2015 at 17:10:56
Bottom line is our loveable manager is doing a great job for the board. He knows that we won't make the top 4 and if we did we ain't got the squad to fight on both fronts.
Short term I think he has told our star players that the only way you get your big money move is to first do it for Everton FC.
The younger players are playing with a smile on their faces and look like they're enjoying the moment of now.
35 Posted 26/11/2015 at 17:27:00
An attacking midfielder who plays on the left would be ideal. Kone is not comfortable on the left although he is playing really well, and Mirallas is probably better on the right where Geri has to be a starter.
Geri, Ross and a marquee signing could be the new holy trinity. Eventually Gareth Barry will need replacing, but that can wait until at least next summer.
36 Posted 26/11/2015 at 17:33:57
I suppose it doesn't make a difference anyway. In your mind, if we don't qualify, they'll leave and if we do, we'll get battered off every other team and they'll leave anyway.
We might as well not bother.
37 Posted 26/11/2015 at 18:12:45
Unlike other managers, he hasn't just taken over a crop of players he doesn't know. He's in his third season. These youngsters are now coming into their own.
If he blows this and doesn't qualify for Champions League football, he should be deemed a failure and we should be looking for a manager who is as good as the players.
38 Posted 26/11/2015 at 18:19:29
I would say the chances of us getting top 4 are less than 5%. Chances of a cup win this season about 10%. Fingers crossed...
39 Posted 26/11/2015 at 18:21:30
40 Posted 26/11/2015 at 18:21:34
What is his net spend?
41 Posted 26/11/2015 at 18:26:09
42 Posted 26/11/2015 at 18:31:43
43 Posted 26/11/2015 at 19:13:43
Main thing is get the most out of them now and, if (or when) they leave, try and replace them adequately so the team and club as a whole moves in the right direction. Us selling players should be only dictated by how skint we are and/or if we can get a decent replacement, not league position.
I should just stop reacting to any RM comment after the last 18 months or so, am at the stage where I find almost anything he says irritating.
Bring on Bournmouth.
44 Posted 26/11/2015 at 19:20:40
These young players are bonding and I don't think any of them will want to leave for a couple of seasons yet, as they can see something happening.
January may still be interesting in the transfer market despite El Bob being coy on the subject.
45 Posted 26/11/2015 at 19:27:13
The game that springs to mind was the Palace defeat at home, the game after thrashing Arsenal. Combine that with brittle mental strength together with being short defensively, and missing a class quality playmaker in the Arteta mould, are the reasons we will not finish in the top 4.
I still think the top 4 will be that of last season and Chelsea will finish strongly in the second half. We have some great younger players to push us to get a top 6 finish but to get 4th you really do need some big game players when the tough gets going.
46 Posted 26/11/2015 at 19:43:09
It's a tricky one for us; as documented today, securing Champions League (hate that name by the way as it's not a competition solely for Champions like the old European Cup... hey, I digress) is key to keeping hold of them. However, are they consistent enough to do it? Vicious circle but this season lots of teams are being inconsistent so who knows?
I must disagree with your rating of Arteta. He was good, and yes, quality indeed but stood out in what I think wasn't as technically classy a squad as we now have. I believe his move to Arsenal demonstrated that he wasn't quite top drawer as he didn't have the same impact when he went up a level. I am now London based and they refer to him as a poor man's Fabregas. Harsh in my opinion but I can see their point.
47 Posted 26/11/2015 at 19:56:05
48 Posted 26/11/2015 at 20:01:37
Martinez inherited some good young players, yes, but putting a different perspective on it, arguably more willing to use them as opposed to Moyes who was cagey and cautious. Different approaches but Barkley being a good example: hauled off during the first-half against Blackburn for making a mistake, whilst now playing without the fear of making a mistake restricting his game.
Would Stones have been given the platform to rise to prominence this soon? Also Lukaku, Deulofeu and McCarthy are the current manager's signings.
And just to finish on a note of agreement: yes, we should demand; we're Everton and need to lose our inferiority complex!!
49 Posted 26/11/2015 at 21:05:35
You really are having a laugh, aren't you?
Martinez has been an unmitigated disaster as far as Ross Barkley is concerned. He has almost destroyed the boy, despite being universally recognised as one of the most talented young midfield players in the country.
Martinez has played him all over the shop, he destroyed his confidence by playing him on the wing, by playing him when he wasn't fit and playing him when he was injured.
Cream will/is rising to the top, but please don't try to tell me Martinez has had a positive effect on Ross Barkley.
As with Stones, who knows if he would have played under Moyes, it was TGT who signed him so presumably he would have been part of his plans.
Anyway if you're looking for a Moyes v Martinez argument, you've got the wrong fella... neither of them have impressed me. They may have signed these youngsters, but they have both made really heavy weather of getting the best out of them.
50 Posted 26/11/2015 at 21:14:11
51 Posted 26/11/2015 at 21:21:05
I respect your view, you clearly don't mine as I'm apparently "having a laugh". People can differ in thought.
52 Posted 26/11/2015 at 21:27:35
Agreed it's a significant figure but it's tiresome having to keep trotting out this statistic because some behave like tabloid journalists and spin the figures to suit their own agendas.
If Stones leaves in the summer and we don't buy anybody, we will be back to the days of negative net spend.
53 Posted 26/11/2015 at 21:31:34
54 Posted 26/11/2015 at 21:40:36
55 Posted 26/11/2015 at 21:56:31
No disrespect to players who made it to the top level and great servants; what we needed at the time but made him stand out. Would he now in this team to the same degree?
56 Posted 26/11/2015 at 21:57:33
If they have any fucking pride, they should earn their money and make this a special era. I believe some will, others will want ready-made Champions League football and some will say, "Who can blame them?"
Perhaps, but you can only earn so much money and, in my old-fashioned view you can have 'bought success' or 'hard-won magnificent success'.
58 Posted 26/11/2015 at 22:23:23
My point is, thank fuck the club kept faith and didn't listen to the beauts who were clamouring for his head. I stopped going last season because I was arguing with those saame beauts who were giving Barkley down the banks for every misplaced pass. These will be the same ones who will call him a Judas when he goes to the Mancs. These people more than anything were conducive to him not getting back quicker to form it took a summer break and something else for him to regain his confidence.
If we finish top 4 this season it will be a Cloughie-like feat. The idea that 'we're Everton, we belong up there' is silly in today's money dominated game. Spurs, Man City, Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea & Leicester are above us in the betting to win the League so we are supposed to come 8th. Go figure.
59 Posted 26/11/2015 at 22:37:43
In my opinion, Ross Barkley is an immense talent who should be central to our future. I hope and believe he is a real Evertonian who will help us get Champions League football, win us trophies, and retire financially secure as a respected Everton great. What could be better than that?
60 Posted 26/11/2015 at 23:08:49
Yes, the landscape has changed but ultimately on the pitch there is always a human factor. Kevin Sheedy could mesmerise with his left foot but equally frustrate (and I heard the moans) with his idleness... but he won titles. Very few players are the perfect finished all-round article and I doubt Ross will be but will he be bloody good and exciting to watch in a blue shirt in the best team we have had since my teenage years? Yes!
61 Posted 26/11/2015 at 23:54:14
Did you read the Daily Mail piece proclaiming that the Everton board have backed Martinez to the tune of £200M?
62 Posted 26/11/2015 at 23:57:00
The players at our club mystify me. Last season, disastrous as it was, they eventually threw off "Bobbie's" tippy-tappy shackles when four-nil down to Kiev in March, then did just enough for a month to put to bed a relegation battle, before reverting to the mantra of our phenomenal Catalan.
Why do they still listen to this guy this season, or his so-called coaches?
63 Posted 26/11/2015 at 23:58:28
64 Posted 27/11/2015 at 00:28:10
65 Posted 27/11/2015 at 04:58:31
File under 'ignore'.
66 Posted 27/11/2015 at 05:38:42
I didn't realise Martinez belonged in such exalted company. Perhaps we should be grateful for 8th as that's where we're "supposed" to finish anyway.
From where I sat, the "Beauts" who turned on Barkley where the ones who thought the manager was doing a Cloughie-like job. It just didn't occur to them that the lad was being so badly managed.
If it was just Barkley whose career was put on ice for a season through rank bad management, I could overlook it... but the same has happened to Robles, Mirallas, Besic and soon Galloway.
Martinez was totally responsible for sections of the crowd turning on Lukaku; by leaving him isolated for the entire season he was ignoring his strengths and laying bare all of his shortcomings. He also put the breaks on the careers of both Seamus Coleman and Leighton Baines by making them stay at home to accommodate his possession obsession.
We are talking about top, top, youngsters who are coveted by the top sides... Martinez needs to get his shit together, because If they are going to realise their full potential in an Everton shirt, we need a manger who is at least on a par with them.
I wonder when Leicester are going to realise where they are "supposed" to be finishing???
68 Posted 27/11/2015 at 07:17:04
(All) Your posts are absolutely spot,(and top-dead-centre) on! A perfect summarisation of where the manager and players are now, and how they got to this point in time.
Martinez, if he has (to him!) higher aspirations, ie, managing Barca one day or whatever, stands right here and right now on the brink of his own ambitions and capabilities.(Always remembering mind that he is still relatively young.)
The next 6 months could be the most perspicacious in the club's history... Will we finally break the 'Grand old team of York' syndrome???
Plus's also abound mind, re players leaving, that, if we do hit the high spots, then we might just attract an (enthusiastic) investor.
69 Posted 27/11/2015 at 14:10:14
70 Posted 27/11/2015 at 15:02:16
To bring in players with the quality of Lukaku, Deulofeu, McCarthy etc to replace them for a net spend of approximately £35 million is very astute business indeed.
71 Posted 27/11/2015 at 17:58:17
End of the day, once a player is sold the board decide how much of the proceeds the manager can use for purchases. Therefore how is that's not included when working out how much the manager has been backed by the board?
Whether the cash came from TV, gate receipts, player sales, it all belongs to the club. Why does cash from player sales not count when working out transfer spend?
Don't get me wrong, £28M for Rom was a very decent price although £13M for McCarthy was too much for a CDM but that's just my opinion and getting off track.
Explain to me why for example the £27M odd we got for Fellaini or the £6M odd for Anichebe doesn't count when calculating what money Martinez has spent? By the same 'net spend' argument, Carroll cost Liverpool minus £15M as the £35M spent by them doesnt count because they got £50M for ladyboy... so Brenda had a net spend of minus £15M, even though he wasted £35M on Carroll??
Can anyone of the TWs who go on about net spend (same arguments trotted out when looking at Moyes's 'spend') explain to me why proceeds from player sales don't count?
In our case, Fellaini wasn't even bought by Martinez in the first place.
I don't want to start a discussion on Martinez being given a lot or a little cash I just want to know why cash from sales is ignored when looking at how much a club has spent in transfer fees. (eg, if we sell Barkley for £40M and Martinez pisses it up the wall, that somehow is fine as it's a 'net spend' of zero??)
72 Posted 27/11/2015 at 18:22:09
Net spend is the only way to judge a manager's spending; you can't dismiss the Fellaini money because he was purchased prior to Roberto's arrival. Martinez has spent circa 㿸m, he has sold 㿖m meaning Martinez has spent in net terms circa 㿏m.
Assuming that Lukaku fetches a fee of upwards of 㿙m and perhaps John Stones and Barkley are sold for a combined fee of 㿞m then he will have made the club a profit of circa 㿀m even if you use the 㿸m figure as the baseline.
If Everton sold Barkley for 㿞m and Martinez spent it on 5 useless 㾶m players then the net spend would be nil, but the useless players would still have a value of 㾶m in the accounts for each of let's say a 5-year contract.
Personally I couldn't give a toss whether Everton make a profit or not on players as the only currency that counts is the goals and points that are won by whichever players are in the squad and whatever their cost or sell-on values.
73 Posted 27/11/2015 at 18:35:15
You are right; I can't. And I didn't.
74 Posted 27/11/2015 at 19:41:03
Let's be clear here: Martinez had absolutely nothing to do with Fellaini's transfer. The dogs in the street knew he was going before Martinez even got the gig. To claim Martinez recouped the money on Fellaini is a pathetic attempt to give him credit for what was already a done deal. It's not as if he had a player ripped from his grasp either. Martinez would have had to be a dumb fucker to have had Fellaini in his plans.
I wouldn't even give him credit for Big Vic's transfer, despite the incredibly generous offer made by WBA. Martinez (by his own admission) tried very hard to persuade Vic to stay. I'm not even sure if Vic kicked a ball for him.
Patrick may grumble that it's the claim of a tabloid journalist, but anyone saying Martinez has been given north of £70M is stating an irrefutable fact and the extremely knowledgeable Mr Murphy knows it.
75 Posted 27/11/2015 at 19:45:55
Does anyone who disagrees with you ever simply pass a comment with their genuine opinion?
Or do they just bleat,whine,etc. The emotive terminology you post does little to enhance your point.
76 Posted 27/11/2015 at 19:52:26
77 Posted 27/11/2015 at 19:54:20
Some think the man is doing OK; some believe he has improved the team; some don't think he has done anything to help Everton FC.
Should we all start wearing different coloured scarves and hats at the match so that we can show what camp we each belong to? A Spanish Flag if you are a Martinez disciple... or a Union Jack if you are not that impressed by the man?
78 Posted 27/11/2015 at 20:00:41
79 Posted 27/11/2015 at 20:03:33
Nice attempt at diversion by the way. I noticed that now you are challenged, you are not denying Roberto has spent north of £70M... but then you can't really can you.
80 Posted 27/11/2015 at 20:08:36
I'll be happy to refer to him as Saint Roberto if he honours his promise to get us Champions League football.
81 Posted 27/11/2015 at 20:12:26
Their success and good form simply put their players in the shop window. If Lukaku continues his current form then he will be off at the end of the season. Sad as that is, I can't see any other outcome.
82 Posted 27/11/2015 at 20:14:58
I'd be more inclined to bash Martinez for keeping older unused players at the club on long, expensive contracts than for 'spunking £70m' on players who have generally turned out to be good.
Darren's spot on about the Kendall comparisons. Martinez will have to fill up the trophy cabinet before he's fit to lick Howard's boots. This is harking back to the success redefinition of the Moyes years.
Success isn't 8th or 4th. It's winning trophies.
84 Posted 27/11/2015 at 20:15:55
I believe that how Kone has fitted in and how Deulofeu has finally been given a role in which he can shine has been critical but RM can take credit. I also believe that stopping trying to shoe Barkley into a box has been a massive credit for RM as with his much freer range he's been able to just concentrate on being creative and whether he can tackle or not it has been really positive for us.
There is a chance that something special will come from this squad in terms of increasing revenue organically by winning things and doing the rescue job that only a sugar daddy can otherwise do. I haven't been a great supporter of RM, seeing him as a bit of a chancer, but if the club can rise from the ashes of decades of mismanagement with him as coach, I'll give him a chance.
85 Posted 27/11/2015 at 20:17:54
Martinez has been backed with around 㿏 million, not 㿲 million, when you take in the board's requirements for him to bring money in by selling players to offset against incoming transfers. He achieved that by selling the likes of Fellaini, Jelavic, Anichebe etc.
To bring in players with the quality of Lukaku, Deulofeu, McCarthy etc to replace them for a net spend of approximately 㿏 million is very astute business indeed.
"There are people on here who will blame everyone but the manager, no matter how bad it gets... post 66 (cough)"
Can you explain where I blame everyone but the manager in that post please.
And also point out anything that is factually incorrect.
86 Posted 27/11/2015 at 20:18:30
We are never ever going to agree about how much money the manager has spent. In your terms and conditions it is the 㿸M figure; in my terms and conditions, it is the lower 㿏M figure.
If I go to cash-converters and sell a CD for a ٣ and purchase a DVD for a 㾶, I have spent ٣ but, according to your world view, I would have spent 㾶.
Perhaps that is why IÃƒÂ¢Ã‚â‚¬Ã‚â„¢m not very rich, I have fallen for the old money trick. Ah well.... back to Cash-Converters tomorrow to sell that useless DVD for a ٟ.
87 Posted 27/11/2015 at 20:26:47
Martinez buys players for £75M but he sells players that are valued at £40M. He's gained the services of £75M worth of players but has lost the services of £40M of players that were in the Everton squad when he took over, so it's cost the club £35M.
It's one of Darren's little exaggerations that he likes to throw in to better his point of view. Darren, how many of our squad would be first-choice picks in a Man City, Arsenal, Man Utd or Chelsea side?
88 Posted 27/11/2015 at 20:45:39
So. Although Fellaini and Anichebe were not players who Martinez made plans around. They were not players he signed and they were not transfers he could prevent... YET... because they hadn't managed to complete their transfers until a few weeks after he arrived, he should therefore be credited with the transfers and their fees should be part of HIS "Net Spend"???
Only Everton have fans who are desperate to credit a manager for transfers he had no control over. He spent £75M... You can dress it up all you want but you will never alter that fact.
93 Posted 27/11/2015 at 20:59:01
Again how many of our squad would be 1st choice pick in a Man City, Arsenal, Man Utd or Chelsea side.
You reckon it's a sacking offence if we don't get in the top 4 this season!
94 Posted 27/11/2015 at 21:03:41
95 Posted 27/11/2015 at 21:04:22
You'd deny it, of course...
96 Posted 27/11/2015 at 21:05:14
97 Posted 27/11/2015 at 21:08:49
The difference is all their managers are successful and could get the best out of them. Martinez is not at the level of his players.
98 Posted 27/11/2015 at 21:09:34
99 Posted 27/11/2015 at 21:20:52
100 Posted 27/11/2015 at 21:20:59
If the manager can muster half as much aggression into the players. I would also believe we have a great chance, but I'm not so sure. Moyes had a great record against the lesser clubs, (flat track bully) but to get top 4, we have got to beat the better teams.
Hopefully this run we are on will breed confidence, but until we play without real fear, it will never be done. I would personally sooner win a cup, and think the fact we can beat anyone on our day, gives us a much better chance than top 4. Unless the manager starts to really earn his corn, as you say.
Martinez, has spent £75 Million, it's undeniable, but if one of his better players were to be sold, the books will have been balanced as Patrick said, and not many people would argue, that the squad hasn't been strengthened in the process. Wether this makes him the right man is open to debate, but this team is more than capable now, so let us see, what this season brings!
101 Posted 27/11/2015 at 21:22:05
Gotta be a cup for me.
102 Posted 27/11/2015 at 21:24:46
Lukaku is a Chelsea reject (I do rate him better now than that though now); Galloway wouldn't start for any YET. I don't think Baines or Coleman would start for more than 1 or 2 of them, same with Barkley.
We're a good progressive team but top 4 is stretching it, Darren.
103 Posted 27/11/2015 at 21:26:38
104 Posted 27/11/2015 at 21:36:44
That's our best tactic for attracting and keeping young talent.
105 Posted 27/11/2015 at 21:39:30
Fair enough Tony... so why are we in a worse position in the league if the improvement is so obvious?
We seem to be universal agreement that the PLAYERS are better... so what do you suppose is holding us back?
106 Posted 27/11/2015 at 21:41:01
This isn't in the manager's hands.
107 Posted 27/11/2015 at 21:44:46
Turning the question on its head: how many Chelsea players would get into our team ?
108 Posted 27/11/2015 at 21:53:01
109 Posted 27/11/2015 at 22:12:22
You was one of the few to call it right after the way our manager never prepared for last season, but maybe he has realised what a big job Everton is,in the process.
I wish we played like your posts, honest and straight to the point, and I also can't work out why the crowd is so quiet at Goodison. Last year was understandable the football was so boring, but now we are scoring goals and it's still pretty quiet. Is it because the fans are still not struck on the style of play, or is it because we have started playing educated football once again?
The jury is still out for me, but whereas under Moyes, we never really expected to win, I think that under the present regime, people are starting to believe again. Win a cup and I will believe myself, not that I would ever give up on Everton anyway though mate.
110 Posted 27/11/2015 at 22:36:05
111 Posted 27/11/2015 at 23:02:02
Darren - 96 using your analogy Martinez must be better manger than Mourinho then.
112 Posted 27/11/2015 at 23:06:32
113 Posted 28/11/2015 at 00:12:27
It's like debating what counts as the more accurate measurement of cock size: limp or mid lob-on? Danny Devito's is about the size of a foamy banana when flaccid, yet he can doff his hat hands free when he's got the fucking horn. So is he well endowed for a wee man or just packing an in proportion pocket rocket for a pudgy pipsqueak? Depends who you ask. We know what Danny would say, but Warwick Davis would be like "Woah, woah, woah. Wait on a minute".
As for qualifying for the Champions League? We may have young players with the potential ability to advance to that level but (at this moment in time) I fear they lack the necessary mentality and maturity when things aren't going their way. That in itself wouldn't be an insurmountable problem if the management team and more senior players in the squad were capable of compensating, by acting as a steadying influence, taking the lead and steering their younger, more inexperienced, colleagues through any challenges and onwards towards their target. I don't believe that's the case here though. If anything, the senior pro's at Everton have proven time and time again that they have a propensity to fold under pressure themselves whenever it looks like they could be on the verge of achieving any sort of tangible success. They're liable to be as much impediment as positive influence when push comes to shove.Ã‚Â
Same goes for the manager himself, whose 'leading from the front' response to things going severely off the rails last season was to freeze... for what seemed like absolutely ages... and act like his team's fate lay in the hands of the gods, rather than his own.Ã‚Â
Europa League again at best this season (but with a sneaking suspicion we could finally get lucky in one of the cups).
114 Posted 28/11/2015 at 06:23:34
I realise how I'm coming across, but the truth is, I really like a lot of what I've seen from Martinez this last six months. It's the silly denials and blind devotion that get me typing.
The question of which Chelsea and Everton players would get into each others team is an interesting one (even if somebody spoiled it by suggesting John Terry would get into ours). What it shows, is that although Chelsea spend much more, there isn't that much difference between the two in terms of quality. Yet and this is my entire point Martinez finished 11th with his squad whilst Jose was winning the League by the length of our street.
John Daley nails this for me: we need to find a winning mentality and that has to come from the Manager. He has to instil it into the players he has got, or bring in players who already have it.
Three years is a fair crack of the whip by Premier League standards. How long should Martinez be given? As long as Moyes? His better players will be long gone by then.
I'm desperate to see us back up there, so I can genuinely put my and on my heart and say I'm desperate for Martinez to realise his own potential and prove he is a top manager. If he doesn't, we're back to square fucking one again.
It's no good bleating about other clubs being richer than us, if we take Man City and Chelsea out of it, the rest of them are richer because they deserve to be. This is the hand we have been dealt. we can either fold and watch on, or we try to win the pot.
Enjoy the Bournemouth game guys, Having missed a few homes games this season, I've copped for a somewhat undeserved ticket, but I'll make as much noise as I can.
"Oh Roberto, he had a dream..."
115 Posted 28/11/2015 at 07:11:47
Don't be silly, it's not blind devotion, it's a confidence and belief that he will get it right, using your logic.
Martinez is 7th and Mourinho is 15th?
Have a good trip.
116 Posted 28/11/2015 at 07:22:03
117 Posted 28/11/2015 at 11:03:07
118 Posted 28/11/2015 at 11:18:27
Martinez inherited a team of good players, but did he inherit a set of winners? I don't think so. Can he turn them into winners? I'm not sure. Can he turn 'his' players into winners? Possibly, but he's got to convince me.
First he's got to get them winning consistently, then I'll look out for them choking towards the finish line.
119 Posted 28/11/2015 at 12:07:27
The total cost paid for a player is what counts as that is what the club paid at the end of the day. Martinez (and any other manager coming in) inherits what's already there, be that the cash in the bank account or the players on the pitch both are assets for the club.
Likewise, Martinez came into the club when it was pretty obvious Fellaini would be sold and wouldn't form a part of his plans. Fellaini was the same has having cash in the bank to buy players, just like any other player in the squad. If he buys low and sells high, then great.
But what matters at the end of the day is the performance of the players bought relative to what was paid for them regardless of where the cash to buy them came from. (Nevermind the fact that the sales negotiations are rarely even carried out by the manager.)
Again, an obvious example would be someone like Barkley. The net spend line of thinking makes no sense whatsoever for players who came through the academy. The logic basically says any money from selling the player doesn't somehow count. If we sold him for £40M and bought 4 Bilyaletdinovs, then yes, we would have £40M 'worth' of players in the club but any sane fan would tell you the manager/club had pissed £40M down the pan. Also Barkley came to the club years before the current manager did so how can any sales proceeds (if he's sold) be ignored if Martinez then reinvests them somewhere else?
The above also doesn't even take into account the club backing the manager when giving players new contracts (and the signing on bonuses that come with them). How much would the 5 years contract for Howard end up costing, or Barry or the extensions for Osman, Hibbert, Mirallas, Stones, Barkley etc not saying these were good or bad but these still total tens of millions that the club has given or 'backed' the manager. These also seem to be ignored, probably as there is an issue with transparency.
Martinez has been 'backed' by a shed load more than a 'net' £35M by Everton football club.
Anyway all a little academic as the only thing that matters happens on the pitch and trophies are the only things that count at the end of the day.
120 Posted 28/11/2015 at 12:19:37
121 Posted 28/11/2015 at 12:38:40
122 Posted 28/11/2015 at 12:39:43
123 Posted 28/11/2015 at 12:46:03
Or, as a little guy I used to work with would say, "Big man, big dick. Little man, ALL dick"
124 Posted 28/11/2015 at 13:06:21
One for P Murphy esq.
125 Posted 28/11/2015 at 13:23:16
126 Posted 28/11/2015 at 13:23:46
I saw a study by some football geeks yesterday who have done a load of number, and stats, crunching and have predicted we will end up 6th this season.
127 Posted 28/11/2015 at 13:41:24
Colin, can they tell us which games we'll win? I'll just go to those! The rest I'll bitch about on the Live Forum!
128 Posted 28/11/2015 at 14:08:12
If it means selling one player and bringing two top players in then so be it. Personally if we make the top four, players will be sold. It's what we do!
130 Posted 29/11/2015 at 10:07:35
Our hopes and dreams should be concentrated into winning one of the domestic cup competitions. So let's hope Roberto doesn't weaken the team too much on Tuesday night, or we could crash out.
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