Mayor: Everton can finance new stadium

by | 17/05/2016  247 Comments  [Jump to last]
Liverpool's Mayor has reiterated his confidence that Everton are now ready to move forward with plans for a new stadium, saying that, unlike before, the club has the financial capability to fund the project.

In comments published yesterday, Joe Anderson said that the Blues could have a new ground operational within three years' time and he explained why in an interview with the Liverpool Echo today.

The local paper revealed yesterday that Everton have dropped plans to move to Walton Hall Park and are now looking at two brownfield sites as alternatives to redeveloping Goodison Park — vacant land off the East Lancs road at Stonebridge Cross in Croxteth and a location on the north docks, mostly likely Trafalgar Dock, which was has been looked at in the past.

The docks site has been earmarked for development by Peel Holdings as part of their Liverpool Waters regeneration project but remains undeveloped. Everton could either purchase land from Peel or work in partnership to fully develop the area with leisure, entertainment and residential facilities.

In either case, Anderson says that the situation is different for the club now than was the case with the doomed Destination Kirkby project because Everton can raise capital themselves and, in the case of council-owned land, the city can part-fund a scheme by investing in leisure- and entertainment-related development at the site.

"I am so confident about the period of time because while it's really up to the club, the finance is going to be there and met by the club," he said.

“If it were a dockland site that's not owned by us, they would have to purchase that. If they do something with us then what they put in, in terms of a stadium, will help create leisure and jobs around the area so we are prepared to do a deal with them that brings the scheme to fruition.

“I am restrained in talking openly about this while they are still talking to (other) landowners. But if they go for a council-owned site we can put in leisure to create jobs.

“We can't do retail because that would be competition with other parts of the city region, but we could certainly do leisure and things that support the stadium, restaurants and different things.”

Anderson's comments reflect Everton's greater financial muscle on the back of booming Premier League broadcast revenues and the arrival of billionaire investor Farhad Moshiri which look set to enable the club to advance their stadium aims without having to rely on complex enabling projects involving retail partnerships for funding.

Old plans for a potential Everton stadium at Trafalgar Dock combined with mixed-use retail and residential development

He suggested that the council could readily assist the club at the Stonebridge Cross site, more controversial with supporters given the distance from the city centre and very proximity to the Knowsley location which was unpopular during the Kirkby debate, because it is owned by LCC.

"The complexity from the past schemes has now been removed because I had said if we were going to give up green space [at Walton Hall Park] I would want to see a massive return on that for the city with jobs, retail, housing, a district centre," Anderson continued.

“Now that hasn't happened they have only got to deliver the stadium, and with them having the money to deliver the stadium they can deliver on that and still deliver on players, so it's a different ball game.

“And don't forget the designs for stadiums are pretty easy to pick up. And the bottom line is the site won't won't be called in, less planning restraints and things like that. One site is in our ownership so it's not complicated. So being able to deliver it pretty quickly is not pie in the sky.

“We'll still charge them for the site — we will want a return in terms of jobs and what have you. We do this all the time — give land to companies where we get a return in terms of jobs and growth.”

The mayor also suggested that any new stadium for the club could form part of Liverpool's bid to host the Commonwealth Games, an arrangement that benefited Manchester City a decade ago when they moved into what was then known as the City of Manchester Stadium.

"It's not just the Commonwealth Games but things like the European Athletics championships and other sporting events," Anderson said "It could be good for the city region and the bid for the Games.

"The new ground, when it's getting built, could accommodate that. Most of these events take place outside the football season so the ground could be used all year round."  


Reader Comments (247)

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Mike Hughes
1 Posted 17/05/2016 at 19:06:54
Trafalgar Dock for me.

Iconic stadium. Part of the city skyline.
Lighting like the Allianz Arena.
Archibald Leitch metalwork incorporated somewhere
Accessible by land, air, boat and yellow submarine.

Thanks very much. (The rs will be fuming in dog-shit laden Stanley Park / Anfield - ha!)
Kev Johnson
2 Posted 17/05/2016 at 19:11:19
Don't hold your breath. My first game was when Dixie scored his 60th goal, they said they were moving then. Still bastard waiting... 😜
Mick Davies
3 Posted 17/05/2016 at 19:15:31
'Don't wanna walk down to, Electric Avenue' . . . . . . . . . . 'I wanna move on up to the Waterfront'
Gavin Johnson
4 Posted 17/05/2016 at 19:15:52
What's the pay off for the future commonwealth bid? Will the council chip in towards the building of the stadium if they are going to benefit significantly if the new stadium potentially hosts the commonwealth games?

On the location. It has to be a docklands/waterside location. It will give the club a huge profile and branding boost if the stadium is the first football ground that visitors to the city will see.

David Chait
5 Posted 17/05/2016 at 19:18:43
The most positive statement of our new found capital so far! Very encouraging we will get something our club and its history deserves and not a chow shed in the middle of nowhere!

Exciting times indeed!

Martin Mason
6 Posted 17/05/2016 at 19:22:30
So glad that's been cleared up. We didn't develop a new ground previously because we didn't have the money, we will now because we can finance it. I'm very pleased for the club especially as the City will part finance it.
Dave Ganley
7 Posted 17/05/2016 at 19:24:22
I'm getting slightly giddy in that the news is all positive and more to the point, achievable too. I'm actually not used to such positivity but could certainly become accustomed to it. A commonwealth games arena is an interesting proposition, one certainly worth thinking about, plus the council would be helping out with that too.

As to location, its got to be the docklands. I was massively against Kirkby and out near the East Lancs road is equally as bad. A grand stadium for a grand old team, sounds great to me.

Oh and Mike Hughes #1, another great bonus as you said, the RS will be spewing bile with envy. As I say, win win!!

Garry Taylor
8 Posted 17/05/2016 at 19:33:09
So choices are - a joint waterfront development with Peel Holdings or something with LCC, miles from the city centre, which they will walk through planning.

I imagine the preferred option will get wrapped in red tape if LCC aren't given a slice

Ryan Snyder
9 Posted 17/05/2016 at 19:34:21
Please, please, please build on the waterfront. Would be a great move.
Les Martin
10 Posted 17/05/2016 at 19:37:34
It appears very obvious that there has been a very dramatic shift in the new stadium scenario with regards to finance.
Twelve months ago you would never have got a statement that Everton could finance a stadium on their own - unheard of...until now.
Reading through and between the lines and without Cllr Anderson totally giving the game away, he informed us that he has met with Mr Moshiri, and what he has heard appears likely to have breathed life into his statement.
This is definately going to happen, and yes the docks would tick the box.
I would also like it to be called the Dean Arena, after Ralph of course, I assume we will be in a position to name it what we want then, or I am really too far ahead of myself ?. I am certainly damned excited and reaching for a Chang as a steadier ! !
Jim Potter
11 Posted 17/05/2016 at 19:42:30
Trafalgar sounds superb. Especially if it doesn't cost an arm and a leg (sorry Admiral Nelson).
Martin Swindley
13 Posted 17/05/2016 at 19:45:16
Don't get carried away, there is no chance the council will approve us having a better stadium in greater location than the RS
Jay Wood
14 Posted 17/05/2016 at 19:47:59
Heady days indeed...

This pads out even more the earlier report from Joe Anderson.

Yet more building evidence (whilst also acknowledging NOTHING has yet changed at Everton) that Farhad Moshiri may just prove to be the serious game-changer we have been longing for.

Pat Kennedy
15 Posted 17/05/2016 at 19:50:01
Very encouraging news on a long awaited move to a new stadium. A waterfront stadium would be spectacular, if it goes ahead. Not sure about Croxteth though?

But why whenever are we discussing things Everton do some of us always bring our neighbours into the subject matter?

But as its been mentioned - I wish we could do what they are doing - have you seen the monster stand they are building? Talk about dominate the skyline - you can see the fucker from New Brighton.

My preferred option is to develop Goodison but nobody in authority seems to want that do they?

I suppose I am an old fogey now but a sensible and progressive development of our home would suit me fine. I know the old lady is fading fast but many on here have put forward pretty realistic plans to show it could be done!

Brian Harrison
16 Posted 17/05/2016 at 19:51:09
I said yesterday how come Anderson has become our spokesman over a new ground. Step forward Moshiri, Kenwright or Elstone, you are the present custodians of our club not Joe Anderson. Why have we not heard a word from them, and if its because no decision has been reached then why is Anderson mouthing off to the press.
Maybe I will ring Andersons office tomorrow for an update on who our next manager will be.
Mike Green
18 Posted 17/05/2016 at 19:53:32
Agreed Garry - the Croxteth option is being made to sound so straight forward from a planning / cost point of view. Shame it's in the wrong location!

The extra revenue that putting the ground on the waterfront would be huge for the city though wouldn't it? Probably a million matchgoers over the course of the season, many of whom would go out after the match, use hotels, restaurants, pubs etc. Build it out in the sticks and it'll be in / out / bugger off.

Hopefully there's enough in favour of the waterside plan to pull it off. But then is it going to be a compromised plan if in the city but a monster outside if the council are going to give us the land....?

Dean Adams
19 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:01:12
Brian Harrison.
The mayor is just posturing. Nothing new. Got to go for the Waterfront. It is the future and we need to get back to being the best, by , well, being the best!!
Jay Wood
20 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:02:11
Strewth Brian @ 16...

Why put a negative on an essentially good news story?

Quite clearly Joe, a bluenose himself, and the club are in extremely close communication over this matter.

It is reasonable to assume, therefore, that it was mutually agreed by all parties that Joe would be the one breaking the news.

All part of the negotiating game. Allow elected politician, looking to be re-elected, look good in the eyes of his electorate.

Further down the line, Everton call in favour to said politician to smooth the way to their goal of building a new stadium.

Not everything related to the club needs to be treated with suspicion.

Craig Walker
21 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:04:21
I have a good feeling about this.
Bob Cumiskey
22 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:05:39
Kev 2, hold on in there mate your wait might nearly be over :)
I would love a new ground down by the docks but I really believe it will be croxteth due to the support being offered by the council.

Either way I am sure the design will be top draw and the ground will be located within the city limits . Here's hoping the docks but great news either way.
The last 7 days have been the most positive for a long time.

Just need a top draw manager unveiling tomorrow now !!!

Tony Abrahams
23 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:06:58
Looks pretty straightforward to me Brian. Mayor Anderson is basically trying to push Everton into accepting his deal but hopefully Moshiri has much bigger plans.

Maybe (as people have already said on another thread) if we choose Crocky, it will be down to Farhad, but if we go for the docks, then his major Russian friend might just be coming on board?

Garry (#8), that's why I'm worried Anderson, has chosen to speak.

Pat (#15), I've stopped taking the kids to New Brighton, because of the new skyline, but hopefully it will only be a short-term thing!

Mick Davies
24 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:07:01
I really want the Dock site, but we will be dealing with Peel, who announced Liverpool/Wirral Waters about 10 years ago (still no sign, just plenty of water), and built part of a bridge on the Manchester Ship Canal that collapsed yesterday. Not filled with a great amount of optimism on this one
Mike Hughes
25 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:14:22
Pat #15

I wish we could do what they are doing - have you seen the monster stand they are building? Talk about dominate the skyline - you can see the fucker from New Brighton.

Great! They'll be able to see our new place from there. (snigger)
Perhaps when they are at home we can have a giant inflatable one-fingered salute rising from The Dixie Dean Arena on the banks of the royal blue Mersey.

And our new chant :
The city centre's all ours, the city centre's all ours.

Just opened a bottle of IPA to celebrate.
Only at Everton can things seem so much brighter now the season is over ......

Mike Green
26 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:21:09
Hey, here's a thought....

Maybe the council option is just in there to show Peel we have other more convenient, lower cost options and they don't have us over a barrel.....

Or maybe the Peel option is in there just to show us how much the dream would cost compared to what's realistically affordable....

Or is it that Croxteth is nailed on but they know if it's put on the table alone it'll get rejected....but make it a beauty contest, show why the docks won't work and we are left with only one option left so we take it.....

Talk about making our new managerial appointment yesterday's news!

Iain Latchford
27 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:23:34
If Goodison isn't being redeveloped (which appears to be the case) then this is a no brainer. Waterfront or Croxteth??? Hmm let me think...
Chris Regan
28 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:26:09
My hopes for Everton are like urinal cake, very blue but being constantly pissed on washes them away down the drain.
Bill Watson
29 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:30:27
Gary #8. I'm not sure what input LCC have, if any, on development on the docklands.

Under the former Mersey Docks and Harbour Board the docks were a separate entity from the City and even had its own police force.

Maybe someone on here knows the ins and outs of docklands planning
Ron Sear
30 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:31:10
Familiar sense of depression coming on at even the mention of Croxteth as a location for Everton. Way out of the city in an area that you really wouldn't want to leave your car in, lousy public transport, with absolutely bugger all of interest to visit, view, eat or even drink in and by the way don't forget to wear your body armour.

The alternative could be a potentially world class location. I just know what I would bet on given the calibre of the personnel making this decision.

Andrew James
31 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:32:37
Hang on Kev@2

Weren't you the subject of transfer window speculation a couple of years back?

Did anybody know we were all trying to outbid each other for someone who is...in his early 90's? At the youngest...?

Kelvin Thomas
32 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:33:21
Walton Park never felt right.
Waterfront please.
Graham Mockford
33 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:36:07
Ron

"Way out of the city in an area that you really wouldn't want to leave your car in, lousy public transport, with absolutely bugger all of interest to visit, view, eat or even drink in and by the way don't forget to wear your body armour."

Well of course you could be describing Liverpool 4 which has been our home for 138 years.

Geoff Williams
34 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:39:21
I suggest Mr Anderson goes to Cardiff to see what income a city centre stadium generates. The Millennium (sorry The Principality )Stadium is a huge asset to the city and Everton's stadium would be the same for Liverpool.
Ron Sear
35 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:48:20
Graham (33) Take your point but L4 does at least have railway stations, pubs and buzz.
Kevin Jones
36 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:48:24
Mick at number 3. Don't forget if we go to Electric Avenue we might get an Eddie Grant to help built it. Ok I'll get my coat
Martin O'Sullivan
37 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:50:57
So Moshiri needs to decide if he's gonna go Croxteth (no thanks) with the LCC or Peel Holdings for the Waterfront??

I'm sorry but it makes so much more financial sense to the city and the club to go the docklands. I don't feel Croxteth would raise our profile as a club at all, new stadium or not. Let's have a massive monster of a stadium on the docks that all the city can see. Imagine just the increase in revenue from stadium tours from tourism alone?? Huuuuuuuge potential!!

Dean Adams
38 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:52:15
Geoff, yes, the Principality Stadium is an absolute gem, but before it was redeveloped people thought it a waste of money. Brilliant location.
John Crook
39 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:52:36
Without wishing to put a dampener on things, I would be much happier if I'd heard Moshiri even hint he was willing to spend big on the club - not to mention a stadium! I just hope we aren't assuming he's got deep pockets.

Still... it could be worse, he could've posed for pictures digging a hole in Walton Hall Park!

Iain Latchford
40 Posted 17/05/2016 at 20:54:44
Croxteth cannot compete with a Waterfront stadium. It just can't. Moshiri seems a clued up bloke to me. He'll want something that is not only beneficial to Everton but also a huge asset. There's no comparison. Anderson seems to be saying we can finance both options. Waterfront it is.
Graham Mockford
41 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:01:33
Ron 35

Railway stations?? Well it's about a 40 min walk from the Merseyrail station.

Pubs?? Well it has pubs, probably best described as 'of the traditional variety'

Buzz?? Well that's one way to describe it.

Look I love Goodison Park, but to get all shirty about Croxteth as a destination when you are from Walton is a bit strange, even if you do really want one of those dockside apartments.

Colin Gee
42 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:04:39
Move the Echo Arena to Trafalger Dock and then build the new ground on the Kings Dock!
Graham Mockford
43 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:06:08
Martin #37

How can you know it makes more financial sense?

You don't know what the relative costs, the relative time frames or the potential revenues.

Unless of course you would like to share your assumptions?

Steavey Buckley
44 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:06:56
There is no way an Everton new build could be used for the commonwealth games as a running track and field events and be completed after making the necessary alterations at the end of the football season and be again for the start of a new football season - there would not be enough time for both. And the idea that an Everton football stadium could be used all the year round, does not understand what happens to grass and the soil through constant use.
Colin Glassar
45 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:09:59
Did anyone else see BK doing his usual cringy act with Moshiri in the Alex Young suite after the match? Moshiri needs to tell him to move along and let him concentrate on rebuilding the club.
Brent Stephens
46 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:19:28
Trafalgar Dock for me. "Can I mind yer yacht, mister?"
Dan Davies
47 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:19:41
The Millennium Stadium dominates the Cardiff skyline right in the City Centre next to all the pubs, clubs, bars and restaurants.

It's an attraction just as an imposing building and the turnover in money for the local area is massive from whatever event they put on there.

Everton should not underestimate the potential the docks Stadium has, if it's possible, do it. They won't regret it.

C'mon Farhad make it reality! Everton need it.

Matt Garen
48 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:28:15
There would appear 2 options and no self respecting billionaire is going to choose Croxteth over that waterfront development. Just footfall in and around the stadium, merchandise sales and hospitality would catapult the club into the top echelons of the revenue stakes. If Moshiri and / or Usmanov invest in the playing staff to coincide then there could be a much brighter future than there appeared to be 6 months ago.
David Chait
49 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:35:56
Andrew #31 - 100% correct! Good memory! The biggest question was does Kev Johnson track back ?

Geez when I saw the name now also a blast from the past!

John Louis Jones
50 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:37:29
Mr Anderson is Looking at the Commonwealth games and other summer events.

Its got to be the Water Front, the other site is just residential and industrial, LCC will want the Money and Visitors in the city centre.

Ste Wallace
51 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:38:30
I hope it's the docks. Hopefully the millions on player transfers gets us to Europe, with a world class manager, European nights... I'm excited!!!
John Crawley
52 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:39:06
Graham, Goodison has got 3 train stations within walking distance, kirkdale is under 20 minutes, Bankhall under 30 minutes and Sandhills just over 30 minutes but you can get a bus from right outside. There are numerous buses into the city centre and town is about 2.5 miles away. It's accessible by numerous roads and its in a much better location than Stonebridge Cross which is over 5 miles from the city centre. There's not a train station within walking distance, there's no where near the level of public transport to get there. In short you'd have to be mad to move Everton there.
Peter Morris
53 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:47:14
Trafalgar Dock is eminently the more attractive of the two locations, but it is owned by Peel, so any negotiations would be complex and potentially very costly. The alternative is it will take Peel all of the touted 30 years to bring their grandiose plans for Liverpool Waters to fruition ,if ever . Are they pragmatists, or dreamers? My bet is 'jam today' and all that.

The redevelopment of the Stanley Dock warehouses are now gathering pace(most PL away teams stay in the Titanic Hotel, so they could walk across to our new ground after a pleasant morning stroll along the riverside!). This site could also be very well served from a public transport perspective by a new station being built on the Northern line halfway between Moorfields and Sandhills, which in turn would help accelerate the pace of the redevelopment of the whole north docks area.

All very 'do-able' as Joe says. It's amazing what money can do isn't it?
Graham Mockford
54 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:50:56
John

Transport is a relatively easy thing to sort out if the site is the right one.

The important thing is the commercials.

Look if it works of course I would like a marque city centre location, I just suspect the numbers will suggest a different thing.

Richard Pike
55 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:52:15
No-brainer in my eyes. Has to be the Trafalgar Dock (assuming it is that site under consideration). One of the world's most recognisable waterfronts, and to have our stadium on it? Too good an opportunity to miss (again). It's even got a ready-made name.
Damian Wilde
56 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:52:36
Mike Hughes, good to see a ToffeeWebber has good beer taste (IPA), rather than the ususl pissy lagers.

Looks like Croxteth, with everyone else though in wanting the docks.

I'd happily stay at Goodison if they a) take every post away b) improve leg room c) improve concourses. Doable? New stadium it is then.

Len Hawkins
57 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:56:59
The Dean Stadium doesn't sound right how about The Heart of Dixie.
Realistically if the Dockland site comes off perhaps get a world renowned company say Apple involved and to include Peel Holdings you could have The Apple Peel Stadium.
Andrew James
58 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:57:21
David@49

Kev can't track back because he's got creaking knees and was apparently born during the First World War.

I am just sick and tired of seeing him in Hello magazine with his new 30 year old missus while living it up down the British Legion. Always flaunts his fame.


Andrew James
59 Posted 17/05/2016 at 21:59:23
Brent - will the scallys be in wetsuits or be Clipper trained now?
Richard Pike
60 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:01:41
Len (57): or maybe the John Peel Stadium if we somehow can't convince Apple?

On second thoughts: wasn't he a red?

Mike Mulhall
61 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:01:55
Have to say, I like how Moshiri appears to be going about things. No waffle, get in, do it. No Bill Kenwright lovey dovey arty farty shite.

Waterfront will be immense and could easily put us on a powerhouse standing, I think securing that location will easily see mr moshiri get his outlay back if he wanted to aswell so win win all round

It's such a relief to have positive news not just bullshit to hold off the fan base

Kevin Tully
62 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:02:25
I would have thought the costs of purchasing the land off Peel Holdings would be easily off-set by the uplift in the valuation of the club after a stadium was complete in that particular location? A guess, but I'm sure Moshiri's team will be looking at any potential resale value with a stadium in both locations.

I drive past the Stonebridge Cross site regularly and although there would be supporting leisure facilities built, it wouldn't come close to a city centre location. For instance, the value of any hotels / accommodation would be hugely more lucrative for any developers in a city centre location than they would in Stonebridge Cross.

It's a no-brainier for me, unless Peel want to rip-off the club by placing a premium on the site because they know there are very few central locations available to build a stadium.

Graham Mockford
63 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:04:53
Kevin

Just an obvious question. Who are you going to sell a 50000 seater stadium located in Trafalgar Dock to?

Mike Hughes
64 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:05:33
Damian,
I was always a GP redevelopment fan. Sadly, it may be time to move on.
Always drink IPA. Bottled at home but increasingly available in pubs. I travel to Dublin on business now and again - and they serve Smithwicks IPA. Never seen it over here. Brewed in Heaven by God. Now if they also got that on tap at the new Dixie Dean arena ......

What a difference a week has made.

Mike Green
65 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:11:17
Erm....someone who wants to buy a football club Graham?
Kevin Tully
66 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:15:09
Well, Graham, we've just managed to sell the club situated in a ground that's 40 years past it's sell-by date. Obviously any future sale will depend on the standard of surrounding leisure facilities, rental values, and how much money is flowing through the club's coffers in 15 or 20 years down the line. Throw in any success/relegation possibilities and you've got your answer how much the club / stadium will be worth.

Potentially though, I would have though anything closer to the waterfront / city centre will have a better chance of success compared to Croxteth.

James Flynn
67 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:15:32
How about this as a maybe. Moshiri has Usamov's billions for investment?

Moshiri alone certainly doesn't. Not unless he divests all his holdings for cash and goes all-in on the Club. He could, of course, but I guess that unlikely.

Usamov's business is steel; Russian steel. His personal wealth has dropped 5 billion over the last 3-4 years (The poor dear). Russia isn't going to get another Olympics/World Cup exacta awarded again. Who's buying his steel then in that crumbling economy?

But the big-league footy industry in England is booming. Why wouldn't he move a chunk of dough into investment in Liverpool real estate? He and Moshiri have been business partners for 20 years at least.

And here's the city's Mayor confident of Everton's future a few months after publicly mocking Elstone's comments about the future.

Things are rising so fast you could almost get the bends.

Gary Willock
68 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:16:32
Sorry folks, but years of Bill has left me thinking "why all this NOW, and why not direct from horses mouth?" Seems just too co-incidental to keep spending expectation in check for the summer??

But, yer never know! May just be a bright new dawn after all! If we get the docks, I'll go the game in my 'pants' and throw a chunk to charity (worked for Lineker!)

Graham Mockford
69 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:16:46
Mike

Ok so why is a club with a new ground in Trafalgar Dock more attractive than Croxteth?

John Louis Jones
70 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:17:35
With the Common wealth games in mind plus other Summer sporting events need to look to Germany most of the clubs there have retractable seating systems. Some clubs even host Motocross and speedway too.

I was looking at retractable seating systems and came across this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eURGnpwOR3I

Pretty dam amazing.

Graham #54 - Your right Money talks, So put your Business Head On and as they Say " Think out side the Box"

Croxeth : Is a logistical nightmare for Visitors for any event. So Money that the local area would (LCC, Local Business and Everton) would be on Match days this is a "locked ROI"

Water Front : you have Match days, festivals , athletics (golden League etc) , Go cart events, Bloody Top Gear the list is endless
ROI is High as the stadium can be used year round and when Everton Play away from home. This means that the local area and the city will benefit from increased revenue stream from visitors.

If any Investor is going to Invest in a project which one do you think they would choose?

Mike Green
71 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:18:03
Erm...because it's got a more valuable asset?
Richard Reeves
72 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:19:29
I've mentioned Trafalgar Dock as being a great location for a new stadium several times on ToffeeWeb and there are also some great Victorian buildings near by that, if redeveloped, could make the whole area quite attractive.I didn't think it would be an option as it looked too good an area/opportunity for the board at that time and imagined it would require massive funding.

So for me it has to be Trafalgar Dock as the preferred location and as it's to good a location to miss out on. I wouldn't care too much if the Kirkby cowshed was built but I would prefer something that looked like a white UFO with a retractable roof.

Graham Mockford
73 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:24:09
Kevin

That may well be the case, which is why I assume any decision will be based on a financial evaluation.

I understand the natural fan reaction is to favour a high profile waterfront location, that would be my preference.

However my property experience makes me think an out of town option is likely to work better. And I think Moshiri is here to make money not pump up his ego.

Colin Glassar
74 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:25:07
Who the hell is voting for Crocky on the TW poll? Rooney and his family?

It has to be the riverside stadium although it can get quite windy at times. It would have to be a bowl type stadium.

John Pickles
75 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:26:07
Trafalgar coming after the routing of the Spanish. Isn't that the wrong way around?
Kevin Tully
76 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:27:17
Well, Grahem, I take your experience on board mate, I'm only an old painter, don't know anything about business. :-)
John Louis Jones
77 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:28:18
Graham what are you taking about? did you not read my post?
Graham Mockford
78 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:30:59
Mike

But if they have spent more and the financials are less attractive then not neccesarily so.

Look I don't know the numbers, I just suspect Croxteth will stack up better financially.

Therefore before I pin my colours to any mast let's see what the man who is going to sign the cheque thinks.

John Louis Jones
79 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:33:00
Kevin #76 Mate he is talking out of his ass.

If Graham is in property he should know about ROI.
Buy to Lets are completely different from Commercial Property.
If you was going to build a hotel in Liverpool where would you put it?

Graham Mockford
80 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:34:55
John Louis Jones

"If any Investor is going to Invest in a project which one do you think they would choose?"

I don't know, I know they will take the most commercially viable option, I suspect Croxteth will be the preferred one.

Kevin Tully
81 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:35:19
That's was my first thought John, but Graham is a bit of a business guru I think (from past discussions) so I do take on board what he has to say..
Brent Stephens
82 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:38:08
Andrew #59 "wetsuits"! No doubt.
Mike Connolly
83 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:43:06
Graham I'm not into property but I can see that the docks would be a viable option especially with the city centre not that far away. The only people passing Croxteth is them heading back to Manchester
John Louis Jones
84 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:44:23
Graham explain Commercial Viable to me?

Cost to Build? ROI? Long Term or Short Term Returns? Will the Property be put into a REIT?
Bottle necking income? Or expanding income possibilities?

When starting a project you don't just look at the cost to build you look at the long term ROI unless you intend to Flip even then out of the 2 The dock is the better investment. You could build a world class stadium on the outskirts of any City and a bog standard in the city. The City stadium will always be worth more because of locality. I used to sell off plan Student accommodation to investors, Guess which properties in the same city sold for more and faster? You guessed it the accommodation closer to the university.

Mike Green
85 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:44:42
Graham - I don't disagree, I think the difference in cost will be stark but other factors are likely to come into play.

One thing which I think could be crucial is Moshiri has just left a club with a state of the art stadium built in a very built up area of London. Having invested a year after they moved (interesting?) I wonder what his view is on the Emirates and it's location?

I wonder if he'd prefer it there or on St Katherines Dock, overlooking the Tower of London, Tower Bridge and the Thames? Or maybe in a field near Stevenage?

Graham Mockford
86 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:47:57
John #79

I'm not 'in property' although I once managed to blag a job as Director of Property for a major retailer.

I do know about ROI however and your example about locating a hotel in Liverpool is a good one to discuss.

So if you were looking to locate a hotel in Liverpool you would look at a number of things to determine your ROI.

What's my turnover?

What are my operating costs?

What's my capital investment?


It may be that a location in the city centre gives the highest turnover but when I look at my costs and investment give me a lower return than an alternative scheme with lower turnover but lower capital and costs.

In the end we are not privy to those numbers, however the investor will take the decision that works.

James Thornhill
87 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:51:28
Until theres a spade in the ground . "Taken with a pinch of salt! so to speak"...
Colin Glassar
88 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:52:46
Bleedin 'ell, we've got some right clever clogs on TW. I thought ROI was the Republic of Ireland.
Kevin Tully
89 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:54:49
Another thing, lads. The Echo arena only holds just under 9,000, so I'm thinking we could possibly hold concerts / large events etc..at a new central stadium. Seems sensible that we rent out the stadium for other income during the year, but you chaps know a lot more than me about this sort of stuff ;-)
Graham Mockford
91 Posted 17/05/2016 at 22:58:53
Kevin #81

I'm definitely not a business guru, I like to think of myself as a chancer who has managed to fool a lot of people for a long time.

But I do know my way around a P+L and balance sheet.

John Louis Jones
92 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:02:47
Graham, Yes very true, But with a hotel the better the location the high the price for a room and better the chance of full occupancy. So yes you could build on the skirts of a city but I visitor will look at how far from the attractions (City Centre, Beach etc) when booking.

You know as well as me that Retail is a different animal again as people will travel to a Cheshire oaks outlet or Bluewater for a day out.
Cheshire Oaks Had 2 nightclubs when it opened both have now closed even though they built a hotel.

This is a football stadium on each event it could have 50000 people plus, You would want this as often as possible, so you are going to look at the investment plan which would you choose?
I stadium that a drive away or somewhere that easy to get to and people will spend money stay the night spend money in the city? Spend money in the local area (your rent paying Businesses) If it just a stadium on the outskirts people will go the event and come home.

Peter Mills
93 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:04:01
I have been 'in property' for 40 years. I once worked for a guy who blagged his way into the post of Director of Property. It was not great.
Jamie Crowley
94 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:05:22
In many areas around the world there's been a few "big fuck off waterfront development[s]" that have turned into giant, vacant, skeletal buildings.

Because enough income couldn't be generated to sustain them.

Just pick the one that will generate more income than the cost to finance and service it.

Or redevelop Goodison.

John Louis Jones
96 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:11:45
REIT, Sorry if I did not explain :
real estate investment trust
A real estate investment trust (REIT) is a company that owns, and in most cases operates, income-producing real estate. REITs own many types of commercial real estate, ranging from office and apartment buildings to warehouses, hospitals, shopping centers, hotels and even timberlands.

I used to sell Shadow Capital allowances into these companies, Which strangely were allowed to be a PLC too.

Graham Mockford
97 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:11:54
Peter Mills

I feel your pain.

Dan Davies
98 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:12:47
If you look at the project Peel are proposing any business man of acumen can see its the standout site and you don't have to be a property whizzkid to work that out!

At the end of the day money talks and billionaires can sniff where the best deal is overall. My money is right next to the Mersey. It might cost more but as they say-

Location, Location, Location!

Mike Green
99 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:14:39
Or will Croxteth be selected because accountants know the cost of everything, but the value of nothing?
Mike Green
100 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:17:09
What we need is a misty eyed Chairman...a dreamer if you will....
John Raftery
101 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:17:49
Croxteth would be a much worse option than Kirkby was. No train services, a barren wasteland, welcome to Merseyside's answer to The Riverside. I have always doubted the feasibility and financial sense of redeveloping Goodison. If the logistics of redevelopment were as easy as some have tried to argue, surely Moshiri would go for that option.
Nigel Dooley
102 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:18:29
Like many blues I feel physically sick when I go into town and see the Echo Arena. The decision not to pursue the Kings Dock was the biggest mistake we have made in our present history.

There are no ifs and buts regarding the new ground if the opportunity arises we MUST go all out to build our new ground on the waterfront. This without doubt in my opinion is our last chance to make in roads into getting back to being the top club in our city.T he location is paramount to our future.

Please, please, please Mr Moshiri, if this is genuinely true that we have a second chance at getting a river side stadium grab it with both hands. Don't be distracted by cost as this would be the most significant step towards us becoming the power we once were. Make it happen.
Graham Mockford
103 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:21:42
John Louis Jones

Not sure what your explanation of REITs does but you sort of get to the nub of the financial assumptions in your previous post.

Does a stadium on the Waterfront versus one in Croxteth generate more revenue for the football club?

I suspect they probably do, not from me because I'm going one way or the other.

Does this extra revenue compensate for the increased capital costs and operating expenditure?

I'd be surprised but if it does, happy days.

Anybody that claims they have the answers to either of the above questions are just kidding themselves. They just have a view like I do.

John Louis Jones
104 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:29:43
Why would cost more to operate a stadium of the same size cost more in the city centre rather than on the outskirts?
Ok the Rates would be More, But would anything else cost more?
Do staff earn less in Croxteth? are utilities more expensive?

The land would cost more but the building would be worth more.

I don't understand.

Dennis Stevens
105 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:31:25
What about the Echo Arena - is it a site that's still suitable for a stadium? If so, might there be merit in knocking it down and replacing it with Kings Dock II?
Graham Mockford
106 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:42:05
John

It depends on the deal that's done. If you take a lease on the land, and develop the site yourself the opex would be higher. Certainly that's the model Peel have used. Keep the freehold and lease out.

But it's a moot point. Whatever way you look at it the total cost of a stadium in Croxteth will be lower than on any waterfront development.

It's whether the upside in revenue makes it worthwhile that is the crucial factor. We will see because I do suspect for the first time there is something in the offing.

Garry Taylor
107 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:46:07
Bill #29 you are correct in a sense, as I understand it, planning permission isn't required on the docks for essential infrastructure associated with the docks. They still have their own police force for certain areas. But for other types of development, such as leisure or retail they do need planning, hence why they applied and obtained planning for the waterfront development. They would need to change the existing planning permission to include a stadium.

It seems that LCC want to make a serious move for the 2026 commonwealth games, if Everton built on the waterfront with no athletics possible in the stadium, this would mean that LCC would have to build their own stadium for games which would become a massive white elephant.

Peel haven't started the waterfront development because their has been no demand during and since the recession. A new stadium could be the catalyst for it all.

Throw in some retro fitting athletics facilities, then this would get LCC on board and everyone could be a winner.

Sounds too simple!

Dan Davies
109 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:49:24
I'm guessing working with Peel or buying the land off Peel, with the location of the land would cost more than the Croxteth project which would be in conjunction with LCC.

I don't know just a guess. Apart from the initial cost of the land and build, the actual operating costs would be similar? The turnover similar?

I just think it would be financially more beneficial for both the Club and the City to have that waterside location.

And I know sweet f a about property.

Garry Taylor
110 Posted 17/05/2016 at 23:51:18
Bill #29 you are correct in a sense, as I understand it, planning permission isn't required on the docks for essential infrastructure associated with the docks. They still have their own police force for certain areas. But for other types of development, such as leisure or retail they do need planning, hence why they applied and obtained planning for the waterfront development. They would need to change the existing planning permission to include a stadium.
It seems that LCC want to make a serious move for the 2026 commonwealth games, if Everton built on the waterfront with no athletics possible in the stadium, this would mean that LCC would have to build their own stadium for the games which would become a massive white elephant.

Peel haven't started the waterfront development because there has been no demand during and since the recession. A new stadium could be the catalyst for it all.

Throw in some retro fitting athletics facilities, then this would get LCC on board and everyone could be a winner.

Sounds too simple!

Christine Foster
111 Posted 17/05/2016 at 00:05:02
By the Banks of the royal Blue Mersey......

It's not the Kings dock but its probably the next best thing. Miss this chance and it will forever be unforgiven. As Chairman Bill Kenwright has a chance to redeem his biggest failure by influencing the decision. He has the opportunity to leave a legacy after all. It just better not be Croxteth! (an I was born there!!) too close to old wounds to be viable politically.

Given the choice it has to be "Trafalgar Park" scene of many an epic battle?

What a waterfront view for Liverpool, for a Commonwealth games bid. If we are to leave Goodison Park then an iconic location would suffice.


Andrew Heffernan
112 Posted 18/05/2016 at 00:30:20
I know Peel Holdings and I know JW; I also know historically PH have been against a sports arena. However, things have moved on since their original planning application. I can see, with FM involved and whoever he will bring to the table, things are different.

Believe me, FM has incredible contacts compared to BK, this is a go'er, FM is in JW league and above, BK is an amateur in this environment. Even I would get excited about it.
Maynard Hanna
113 Posted 18/05/2016 at 00:39:30
Got home late from work. Checked out ToffeeWeb to see the 'latest'. Saw headline article about ground and also a piece about Lukaku wanting to leave or at least his dad telling us that his son was on his way. So what do I read? Lyndon's piece of course about the possibility of a new stadium according to the Mayor. I read many of your subsequent comments.

It's obvious that things are now happening at a rate of knots. Moshiri's influence behind the scenes is being felt. I think that he is well ahead of the Mayor and that is way Mr Anderson is confident enough in being able to shoot his mouth off. I believe that Moshiri has already identified his site and has opened negotiations with whoever to advance things. News has been leaked to you and me. ToffeeWeb reacts and we have a poll currently running at 75% in favour of the docklands site. Hopefully more will vote and make their choice known and who knows who looks at such polls and perhaps will even take guidance from such poll results.

But for myself and not being a Merseysider but still a committed Evertonian I would never pretend to or dictate to Merseyside folk as to what is best for their city. But in being totally selfish I would much prefer a stadium that will be a building of huge significance architecturally for the city akin to the Liver Birds Building, St Georges Hall or whatever. A stadium on the Waterfront would be such a building. I know this.You know this and more importantly so does Mr Moshiri. He will want the best, the very best. For the first time in decades I now think that that is what can now be delivered for Everton.

Hopefully things will continue to progress as quickly as possible, and Mayor Anderson's belief that we will be in a new stadium in 3 years will become a reality. As for Lukaku, if he wants to go, let him leave. I only want people who want to play for us even if they have a broken leg. Now more importantly, I wonder who Mr Moshiri's choice for manager is, that's theimmediate question that i'm longing to see answered.
Graham Mockford
114 Posted 18/05/2016 at 00:41:22
Andrew #112

What makes you think it is a more viable scheme than say Croxteth?

Roy Noon
115 Posted 18/05/2016 at 00:43:37
Personally, I would prefer Goodison Park to be redeveloped – it seems that is now a non starter. It would appear Anderson is pushing the Crocky option. Council land, probably cheaper than the docks, communication by car probably better than the docks, Fazakerley station is, I think, the nearest rail link... but still some distance away. Not a very attractive out of town location and may still be objectionable to the local residents.

So, Trafalgar Dock, potentially iconic location. Purchase of land from Peel Holdings could be problematic. Communication issues - better train links, could be huge traffic issues? Would be a huge boon to the city centre economy and enormously raise the profile of EFC as a Liverpool based club sitting on the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey (cue the chant). So all in all there really is only one option worthy of consideration, albeit the docks option will be the more difficult of the too.

With regards to the Commonwealth Games, don't really give a toss tbh. We want a football stadium, not an athletics arena, though I appreciate running tracks can be removed and replaced with seating. Be nice if they could have a retractable roof too... get one over our lovely neighbours and the Mancs and London grounds.

All to be achieved in 3 years? Wont be holding my breath on that one. Nice to see things moving though, with a bit more purpose than the previous disasters.

Dan Davies
116 Posted 18/05/2016 at 00:47:08
Exactly Andrew 'Peel' will be having wet dreams about Moshiri and his contacts especially his best friend and partner the richest man in Russia!

No no sorry can't mention Usmanov on TW. Maybe he's got other wealthy friends who can see a viable project to make a big profit.

Or it could be ' pure invention '. Lol.

John Roberts
117 Posted 17/05/2016 at 01:10:17
For great examples of city-centre stadiums look at Melbourne and Adelaide - MCG, Etihad and Adelaide Oval - all successful operations and, interestingly, used as home ground by more than one club.
James Marshall
118 Posted 18/05/2016 at 01:19:50
Mike Green@85

The Emirates wasn't built in a 'built-up area of London' as such. It's in Ashburton Grove (I live nearby) which was a shitty old rubbish tip, and industrial estate when they bought the site. It wasn't residential, or built-up to be fair.

80% of that site was council owned (the tip) and the rest was sold to Arsenal by Sainsburys (and others) I think. The new site is only about half a mile from Highbury, and while at the time there was loads of opposition, it appears to have worked out long-term.

That said, it's rubbish to get in & out of for supporters on matchdays, and the area is a no go zone when Arsenal play at home due to the crowds, and road closures. It snags up half of north London whenever there's a match on.

I guess what I'm getting at, is that comparisons with London grounds, and Liverpool grounds just don't add up due to the size of London, and the infrastructure/how close together the houses are down here. Liverpool has way more room than we do, and probably more brownfield sites (and definitely more green-sites) to offer a developer.

Andrew Heffernan
120 Posted 18/05/2016 at 02:23:46
Graham - simply, the Docks are a 'destination' whereas Croxteth is not and will never be. And for all the finance, all the forecast p&l and balance sheets, that will count. I would be stunned if Croxteth was chosen over the Docks, unless PH would simply not play ball, which I doubt.
Colin Metcalfe
122 Posted 18/05/2016 at 03:12:49
I don't live in Liverpool anymore I left Huyton back in 96 however I do own a dockside apartment that I can use when I come back to the city , if the plans go through for a waterside stadium I would happily buy another another apartment nearby as an investment and rent it out for short term lets, now if for some bizarre reason the club opts for Croxteth .. then not a chance !

Now I am just a individual example but I wonder just how many people would be thinking along the same lines .
Do you see how outside investment could flow into the city ?
Not only is this a massive decision for the club but for the city itself but my big fear is as Graham Mockford has pointed out dealing with Peel Holdings maybe the stumbling block and they want to screw the club for every penny knowing they have a rich investor .

It's all about dollars & cents folks but for my money the dockside stadium makes more financial sense in the long run .

Eric Myles
123 Posted 18/05/2016 at 03:21:21
If Peel have been having issues with slow take up of interest for their development maybe a ground there would be helpful for them.

Guaranteed footfall of 50k every other week could attract interest from hotels, of which there's a shortage in the city, restaurants etc. Then there's other revenue sources that would attract customers.

So it could be an attractive proposition from their side to kick start the development.

If LCC want to use the ground for Commonwealth games and other athletic events they can chip in with the costs of conversion techniques like retractable seating and the track.

Otherwise LCC will have to build a stadium of their own which is more costly for them and what would they do with it afterwards? Well by 2026, there might just be another team in the city looking for a new stadium on the cheap??

Julian Wait
124 Posted 18/05/2016 at 04:33:15
Can't always trust Wikipedia but this has been on there since at least 2014:

"John is also an avid fan of Liverpool Football Club along with his family members."

Hopefully he's a businessman first and foremost, you'd think so from his track record, and he won't let that cloud his judgment....

Eric Myles
125 Posted 18/05/2016 at 05:31:27
Surely redevelopment has to be considered as an alternative to Croxteth if the preferred dock location becomes unfeasible?
James Flynn
126 Posted 18/05/2016 at 06:12:03
Regarding all the talk about a new home for Everton Football Club, how about this for a maybe. Moshiri has Usamov's billions for investment?

Moshiri alone certainly doesn't. Not unless he divests all his holdings for cash and goes all-in on the Club. He could, of course, but I guess that's unlikely.

Usamov's business is steel; Russian steel. His personal wealth has dropped $5 billion over the last 3-4 years, the poor dear. Russia isn't going to get another Olympics/World Cup exacta awarded again. Who's buying his steel in that crumbling economy?

But the big-league footy industry in England is growing; booming. Why wouldn't he move a major chunk of dough into investment in Liverpool real estate? He and Moshiri have been business partners for 20 years at least.

And here's the city's Mayor confident of Everton's future a few months past publicly mocking Elstone's comments about the same. Why is he so confident?

There's been several comments over different TW threads implying Moshiri is Usmanov's front-man. Don't know about that. Nothing researched indicates it. But that they've partnered for decades is public record.

Things are rising so fast you could almost get the bends.
Peter Howard
127 Posted 18/05/2016 at 07:03:08
Build it at Trafalgar Dock, get it sponsored by Admiral Insurance and call it the Victory Stadium.
John Hughes
128 Posted 18/05/2016 at 07:22:59
Colin (88) I too always thought ROI meant the Republic of Ireland... Us mere mortals eh!!!
Ian Cowhig
129 Posted 18/05/2016 at 07:40:03
Any new stadium will certainly move EFC forward. One on the dock, in my view, will propel them forward, and make Everton a brand name that is known all around the world, just by being on any new Liverpool skyline picture and painting. All the new cruise ships will almost berth next to it.
And name of stadium 'Peel & Dean'. With accompanying irritating half time 'cinematic' interval song.
Peter Mills
130 Posted 18/05/2016 at 07:55:02
Graham - Cheers, the wounds are healing!
John Louis Jones
131 Posted 18/05/2016 at 07:58:29
I was looking around and found this last night.

its is from 2009:
Posted by Beechside on October 13, 2009, 7:38 am
swampy

first I've heard of this:
summary of the link in case it doesn't work.....

Expect an announcement by Peel Holdings (owners of Liverpool Waters scheme land) and the NWDA regarding Clarence Dock in the new year.

The old Mersey Docks & Harbour Company who owned the land before Peel went to the extent of hiring stadium designers to see about it's feasibility.

The CEO of MDHC said it was not only feasible, but also desirable saying that there needed to be a landmark building there that wasn't just more apartments, to kick start investment.

Planning documents for Liverpool Waters in late December.

It would be a multiple agency enablement including NWDA money. Peel would construct the stadium.
Clarence Dock is the dock to the left of Princes Dock (which is left of the Liver Buildings).

It's a brownfield site that is 30 acres larger than Kings Dock. Room for hotels, tower blocks and a supermarket.

Peel are looking at what the Melbourne Docklands development, where a stadium was used as a driver to get investment down to the docks, which had been unused and fell into disrepair since the 1980's due to containerisation taking the trade away.

The stadium at Melbourne attracts 2 million people a year and was a key driver to getting loads of companies to invest (Sony Erickson, Axa, etc).

Colin Glassar
132 Posted 18/05/2016 at 08:05:17
I don't care where it's built as long as its bigger and better than our neighbours shitty little shed oh, and it's by the river.

Another great site would be between the two cathedrals. Now that WOULD dominate the city.

Laurie Hartley
133 Posted 18/05/2016 at 08:08:58
James # 126

"There's been several comments over different TW threads implying Moshiri is Usmanov's front-man. Don't know about that. Nothing researched indicates it. But that they've partnered for decades"

If that is the case, which I think it is, I am pretty sure Usmanov while he has a financial interest in another EPL Club Arsenal, cannot be seen to have any direct financial link with Moshiri regarding his stake in Everton. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Christin # 111 - here is the dream to sell to Bill

"Bill can you imagine it - speeding up the river and through the dock gates at the helm of your big blue speed boat to you own personal jetty outside our brand new "Mersey Arena".

White locks trailing in the breeze from underneath your Captains hat with the "EFC 1878" badge on the front. Just imagine it Bill."

Link

Laurie Hartley
134 Posted 18/05/2016 at 08:21:13
John Louis # 131 - I worked in the building and construction game in Melbourne from 1973 up until last Christmas when I hung my boots up.

You are correct about the impact the Docklands development had on Melbourne. If anything you have understated it. The development of the Melbourne Docklands (and Southbank) continues to this day.

The amount of jobs and wealth it created (is creating) is staggering.

Melbourne is a great city but I can assure you that development on that sort of scale would restore the City of Liverpool to its former glory.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if our great club was the initiator of such a thing.

There I go again dreaming - light the blue touch paper.

Mike Green
135 Posted 18/05/2016 at 08:27:27
James #118

I worked in Islington for about five years so know it relatively well. I also have the experience of the matchgoing fan at both Highbury since the ‘80's and the Emirates since it was built.

Your description of The Emirates being built on a “shitty old rubbish tip, and industrial estate” is absolutely correct.

I would challenge that it's not in a built up area though, and you seem to contradict yourself when you say “it's rubbish to get in & out of for supporters on matchdays, and the area is a no go zone when Arsenal play at home due to the crowds, and road closures. It snags up half of north London whenever there's a match on.”

My words were never “residential” (but the surrounding area is to be honest) and it is “built up” – it's in the middle of North London as you say yourself.

Arsenal had to make compromises in order to stay near to their spiritual home – we could equate this to redeveloping / staying near Goodison. They could've moved out to “a field near Stevenage” to alleviate some of these issues (a bit like us moving to Croxteth) or might have preferred a world class location (a bit like us moving to the waterfront, or them by the Thames) but they stayed put as this was deemed the best solution based on all the criteria at the time.

My point is, Moshiri invested in Arsenal in 2017, a year after the Emirates was opened. Was this partly because they had a shiny new stadium? Does he think that unless we build a shiny new stadium he will struggle to make good on his investment in future (i.e. attract people like him when he wants to sell). Having invested at that point in the curve previously does he wish he'd got in earlier before the Emirates was built (which is potentially why he's bought Everton now and has the drive to build a new stadium), and having experienced all the problems you document so well at the Emirates would he have done it a different way?

If we had the answer to the above we'd probably have a good idea of which of Croxteth or The Docks is the preference of the man with the money ("staying put" sounds like it might be out of the window).

And if he has more options in Liverpool than London as you believe then he's got a bigger magic wand to play with, hasn't he?

John Louis Jones
136 Posted 18/05/2016 at 08:27:41
Laurie, This place : http://www.austadiums.com/stadiums/stadiums.php?id=120

Multi purpose - used for every type of a event. Looks amazing

Phil Parker
137 Posted 18/05/2016 at 09:22:21
The ideal site for us in the North docks area is where the drive-in movie site is/was, and also the old site for the summer pops. Its a BIG area, and right on the riverside. We need to push hard for this. I will die happy if this one comes off.
Laurie Hartley
138 Posted 18/05/2016 at 09:23:59
That's the one John. It was built by a company called Baulderstone (now owned by Lend Lease) - the roof was done by Alfasi Steel. It took about 2 years to build.

I have been in that roof during its construction - the company I worked for supplied the scaffolding to the project. I have watched it being closed also. It is an amazing piece of engineering.

I have seen Man Utd play their, England's RU team humiliated their, and the Australian 50 over side play their. It is a fantastic stadium.

The Aussies, as well as being good at cricket and most team sports, know how to design, construct and upgrade stadiums.

Melbourne is a hot bed for sport. If you can go on to Google Earth check out the Etihad and its surrounds,

The MCG from Batman Avenue (for an engineering challenge)

The Rod Laver Arena and its surrounds.

AAMI Park

People come from all over the world to attend sporting events, rock shows etc at these stadiums. They spend a lot of money in Melbourne while they are here.

While we are all thinking big - here is a mind boggler.

Mr Moshiri and his "associates" could buy all the land off Peel, build us a new stadium, and develop what is left over.

Laurie Hartley
139 Posted 18/05/2016 at 09:25:21
Apologies for the spelling.
Kevin Tully
140 Posted 18/05/2016 at 09:33:56
No comment from Peel yet, which tells me they are at least in talks: Link
Ed Fitzgerald
141 Posted 18/05/2016 at 09:38:32
Colin

I agree that it should be a better stadium than anfield but I think you are getting over excited if you think a stadium is going to be biolt between the two cathedrals given that the university's own most of the land and you have the Phil, Everyman. The docks will do just fine!

David S Shaw
142 Posted 18/05/2016 at 10:14:30
Even if we do get to build a new stadium on the Waterfront I bet we still end up messing it up by building it too close to the Waters Edge preventing us from ever being able to expand it.
James Marshall
143 Posted 18/05/2016 at 10:27:02
Mike@135 - yep, I'd agree with all of that. I guess I did contradict myself a little bit and lose my point. I also think that 'built-up' can mean different things to different people.

London is so spread out, that it's kind of a perception issue when you're talking about inner-city London, versus what some see as the suburban areas, and then further out to the real 'burbs' as they're known.

As a Londoner, I see 'built-up' areas as the inner-city, central London - not North London which is way less built-up than the centre of town (obviously) and less built-up than say the East or West of town. North London is probably the leafiest part of residential London in it's entirety.

Anyway, I agree with everything you're saying about Moshiri getting involved ahead of the curve this time - he knows what he's doing due to the previous experience you allude to with Arsenal, so I firmly believe we (Evertonians) should trust his judgement on this one.

He's clearly a smart man, has made vast sums of money, knows the football industry, knows the pitfalls of building a new stadium, knows business, and you can be damn sure he's future-proofing his investment which can only be a good thing for us.

Personally I'd be amazed if we end up with anything other than a shiny new ground on the riverfront that brings in great revenue for Liverpool as a city, and helps push Everton on for future generations. Goodison is a relic, and we need to let it go for the future of the club and the supporters to come long after we're all gone.

John Raftery
144 Posted 18/05/2016 at 10:52:29
David 142 You are right. Whatever is built must be capable of expansion to at least 60,000. Some people think we can never hope to fill a stadium of that size but we did in the sixties and we will do so again if the team is successful.
Kevin Tully
145 Posted 18/05/2016 at 11:02:42
Trevor Skempton has outlined a few points to consider regarding any move away from Goodison for KEIOC :

Link

Iain Latchford
146 Posted 18/05/2016 at 11:12:19
I believe a waterfront stadium with the correct design can tick all of those boxes. Croxteth can't.
David S Shaw
147 Posted 18/05/2016 at 11:28:38
Great link Kevin Tully. I've copied and pasted it below so it doesn't get missed.

Nil Stadium Nisi Optimum

Wednesday, May 18, 2016

Rather understandably, Evertonians see the arrival of Farhad Moshiri as the dawning of a new era, an era where Everton can, once more, compete with the very best in the Premier League. A potent symbol of the status of a football club is their stadium, and, sadly, there has been no greater symbol of Everton's status as the Premier League's perennial paupers than Goodison Park.

Bill Kenwright's search for a wealthy investor has spanned sixteen years and once the understandable euphoria over Mr Moshiri's arrival has subsided the enormity of the task facing him needs to be understood. He inherits a team that has finished in the bottom half of the league, it requires significant investment and a new manager. Off the field, Everton's commercial performance, in relation to their perceived peers, also requires considerable attention but perhaps the most enormous task facing Everton's new investor is that of addressing the stadium.

Whilst players, managers and owners may come and go on a regular basis a new stadium can exist throughout the lives of generations of Evertonians to come. The decisions on subjects such as redevelopment or location and design are complex; it is simply not the case that a stadium can be built on any piece of available land or because it fulfils the needs of others, as was the case with Kirkby which KEIOC vehemently opposed. Everton need a stadium for the benefit of Everton and nobody else, nothing but the best will be good enough this time.

One of KEIOC's expert witnesses at the Kirkby public inquiry was architect Trevor Skempton . Apart from being an avid Evertonian, Trevor was Consultant Urban Design Advisor to Liverpool City Council and is currently a Lecturer at the University of Liverpool School of Architecture.

Here we've invited Trevor to outline the criteria for a successful stadium solution and we would invite you to consider this brief document when potential sites and designs come forward.

Everton – Eight Criteria for a Good Football Stadium

1. Inner-city or City Centre location. The stadium should be easily accessible by public transport. The city centre is by far the best place for this as public transport capacity drops exponentially with distance from the city centre. Matches are played at the weekends or in the evening, when there is plenty of spare parking capacity. The stadium can contribute to the overall image of the city, alongside theatres, cathedrals and civic buildings. The inner-city is the next best thing.

2. Scope for Incremental Development. Football Clubs need to be able to develop continuously. The case for incremental developments is that they can change with time. A one-off completed design can quickly become an out-dated straight-jacket. But fixed historic elements can complement a changing context.

3. Core Capacity of 48,000, with potential for further phases to take it, at first to more than 60,000, then – ultimately – to the appropriate size to be able to stage the Champions League Final (at least 80,000). Supporters must be able to dream of the ultimate goal, in their home stadium, as they do in terms of their team.

4. Just half the seats should be of a generous ‘premium quality'. The other half should be of a contrasting traditional ‘atmospheric quality' – that is they should be tightly-spaced and close to the pitch, ideally with an element of ‘safe standing'.

5. Closeness to the action: This is of great importance in regular club football, both for the experience of the spectator, and the creation of a good atmosphere in support of the team. Distance from the pitch is every bit as important as sight-lines. That is why this notion the idea of sharing with athletics in a club ground has fallen out of favour (as against occasional big International games or Cup Finals). Despite ingenious attempts, nobody has yet come up with a satisfactory solution.

6. Eight days a week, the stadium should exert a continuous presence in the eyes of the supporters in particular and the public in general. There should be many activities every day – concerts, museum, club shop, restaurants, hotels, etc.

7. Aspects of ‘atmosphere' must be given serious consideration – just as in the design of a theatre or opera house. Match atmosphere, or being a ‘fortress', has long been regarded as the accidental by-product of a cost-conscious engineering approach. But team performance, and the attractiveness of a venue to television audiences are vital factors, and both are directly related to the stadium design.

8. History. Football is an emotional business – the accumulation of trophies and the accumulation of memories. Many of these emotions are bound up with the stadium, and a move puts at risk (in business terms) these ‘unique selling points'.

Conclusion: An expansion of Goodison Park, retaining and incorporating the best aspects of the famous old stadium, done properly, is not the cheapest option, but it can be done incrementally, and respond to ever-changing requirements.

Any alternative would have to capture some extra-special unique magic, through its location in the city centre or on the waterfront. Just to follow unimaginatively in the footsteps of Bolton, Wigan, or Derby (to a ‘business park'), or even Arsenal, Manchester City or West Ham (to a leggy superbowl) will not be good enough.

TRS/ for KEIOC / 17th May 2016

Brent Stephens
148 Posted 18/05/2016 at 11:39:15
Laurie #134 - I've been to Melbourne a lot (parents and brother emigrated there) and I love the "G" and the Etihad as stadiums and their environs. What was the out-of-town concrete monstrosity they built for AFL years ago and finally closed (knocked down??). Comparable to Croxteth here?!
Dave Roberts
149 Posted 18/05/2016 at 11:45:38
I can see Peel going for this and offering Everton a good deal on the land as a bit of a 'loss leader' in getting the whole development up, kick started and running. Peel see themselves as landlords as opposed to developers and they purchased this land a decade ago. No sooner had they done so than the financial crisis hit and nothing has been started. Fair enough, the value of the land is increasing somewhat over time but this is dead money that can only be realised by development taking place or selling the land on. Selling the land on is not what Peel do but what they will want is for something to kick start the overall development.

Previously, Peel had no plans to incorporate a stadium into the development, probably because with the financial confidence around when they bought the land they believed they didn't need anything like that....but now they do.

A stadium that pulled in a guaranteed 50,000 people every other week at least would encourage bars , restaurants, clubs and a sundry other recreational facilities to move into the area. This says nothing about the advantages of a facility that could be used all year round for concerts, other sports etc. The area would become busy and 'Buzzy' instead of it being dead and deserted as it is at the moment and this would encourage residential development and this in turn would further encourage other businesses to move into the area too. Liverpool Waters would be underway and EFC would be a part of it and in a sense, a 'facilitator'.

It just makes incredible sense to me and all for the price of maybe paying Peel an annual leaseholder rent to them as the freehold landowner. I am very confident that the docklands will be the next home of Everton Football Club. Croxteth might provide a very fine stadium and could be a little cheaper but that would be a false economy because the future of Everton Football Club would be assured in what I am sure would be the finest, most iconic and most desirable football stadium in this country....and maybe anywhere.

Go for it Blues....please go for it.

Tony Abrahams
150 Posted 18/05/2016 at 11:57:57
I'm reading myself through this very enjoyable thread and have just got to post 91. Forgive me if someone gets in first, but you sound just like Bill Kenwright to me mate!
Graham Mockford
151 Posted 18/05/2016 at 12:06:18
Cheers Tony,

I guess on a post that appears to be full of unbridled optimism, 60,000 state of the art waterfront stadium leading a £5bn regeneration scheme consisting of residential, leisure and office skyscrapers, I'm just posting a note of caution.

Let's be honest who wouldn't want it, but these things are driven my numbers, hard cold investment decisions. That applies to Peel and I'd be amazed if it didn't apply to our new investor.

Without be privy to such financial information it is impossible to see the tangible financial return and therefore the viability of any options.

Laurie Hartley
152 Posted 18/05/2016 at 12:14:40
Brent - that would be VFL Park later to be know as Waverly Park.

St Kilda and Hawthorn played there.

It is now a training ground for Hawthorn surrounded by detached and semi detached houses built by Mirvac Developments.

St Kilda now play at the Etihad - Hawthorn at the MCG.

Brent Stephens
153 Posted 18/05/2016 at 12:20:15
Good on yer, Laurie. Now I remember it.
Tony Abrahams
154 Posted 18/05/2016 at 12:23:02
Graham, I think you speak a lot of sense for a blagger, and I do understand what you are getting at. Me, I know very little about what is being said, and is possibly why I'm enjoying this thread, so mush.

Hopefully your line of thought, is just because we have been getting dragged down off your alias for years!

Just imagine sailing from New York, just to watch Everton, whose ground will be a ten minute walk, from where the ship berthed. Stretch your imagination, and dream.......!

Dave Roberts
155 Posted 18/05/2016 at 12:27:36
Graham,

From little acorns Oak trees grow. Every development on this scale needs to be kick started and nothing so far has managed to do so since the land was purchased by Peel Holdings. The initial development that encourages progress might not be the biggest in the final analysis nor even the most important but it can and often is the facilitator.

If you doubt that, look at the Liverpool southern waterfront today. Not very long ago there was desolation from Mann Island to the Dingle. Improvement began with a Garden festival which, although now gone at least demonstrated how the environment could be improved and desolation transformed into something for the public good. This led to the willingness to develop the whole of the Toxteth docks area including the gem itself, the Albert Dock.

Do you think Liverpool One would have been built if the Albert Dock it overlooks had been as it was when an episode of 'Boys from the Blackstuff' was filmed there in 1982? No it would not. Do you think the Museum of Liverpool would have been built where it is, or the new apartment blocks, the old White Star building turned into a hotel, the Leeds-Liverpool canal extension? No, they would not.

From desolation to one of the most iconic waterfronts in the world and none of it would have been likely if it hadn't been for the permanent improvement provided by the temporary garden festival. All this was obviously more piecemeal than the plans for Liverpool Waters but a new stadium could do very much the same for the desolation of the north end docks.

David Price
156 Posted 18/05/2016 at 12:27:51
Hearing rumours of second investor. Usmanov perhaps ?
Colin Hughes
157 Posted 18/05/2016 at 12:39:18
That's three venues for the new stadium location that have bit the dust now.

We all thought Kirkby was a done deal a few years back, the Kings Dock was believable at the time circa 1996 as a lot of clubs were redeveloping or building stadiums then so why not us I thought.

Now the Walton Hall Park venture didn't surprise me that it never got off the ground what with our past record and Kenwright's failure to deliver anything at the helm of the club.

We are slowly running out of cards to deal on the ground move so I'm not holding my breath at the very least until the builders have started laying bricks on site.

Graham Mockford
158 Posted 18/05/2016 at 12:42:40
Dave Roberts

That all could be true but just wanting it to be true doesn't neccesarily mean it is. As I said I'd be really happy if it is but I will start getting excited when someone puts a spade in the ground.

Tony

I can't see your New York to Liverpool match week special by boat catching on, but nice thought.

Tony Abrahams
159 Posted 18/05/2016 at 12:49:01
Just a dream Bill, I mean Graham. Life is just a dream!
Mike Green
160 Posted 18/05/2016 at 12:50:17
James #143 - I'll drink to that, cheers.
Iain Latchford
161 Posted 18/05/2016 at 12:51:49
David, what rumours are they, and from where?
Brent Stephens
162 Posted 18/05/2016 at 13:03:13
Sorry they did away with the old overhead railway (dockers' umbrella) running the length of the docks, north-south. Would be a great tourist attraction as well as practical transport.
Eric Myles
163 Posted 18/05/2016 at 13:05:12
Graham #158, didn't Gillette and Hicks put spades in the ground at Stanley Park?

Better wait until the topping out party.

Helen Mallon
164 Posted 18/05/2016 at 13:46:15
With the news from Mayor Anderson that Everton will have a new sparkling stadium within 3 years, should the club's next appointment as manager be someone who will keep us in the Premier League (eg, Allardyce or Hughes – safe hands that won't put us in danger)... who can be changed once we move in?

Or should it be an unknown like De Boer, who may or may not keep us there and risk loosing 3 years of TVs revenue?

Iain Latchford
165 Posted 18/05/2016 at 13:48:31
Bit early to be drinking isn't it Helen?
James Marshall
166 Posted 18/05/2016 at 13:50:29
Where is all this talk of Usmanov coming from? He upped his stake in Arsenal in February, and I was under the impression he wouldn't be allowed to invest in another PL club while holding an interest already?

Anyone?

Iain Latchford
167 Posted 18/05/2016 at 13:57:12
I was thinking the same thing James. Surely he'd have to pull his money out of Arsenal (as Moshiri did) before he could get involved with us. I'm sure we'd hear if that was happening.
Barry McNally
168 Posted 18/05/2016 at 14:00:10
Helen, mine's a large G&T.
Mark Melton
169 Posted 18/05/2016 at 14:03:04
In April 2011, Kroenke extended his ownership of the club by purchasing the shareholdings of Nina Bracewell-Smith (15.9%), Danny Fiszman (16.11%) and other directors of the Arsenal board, taking his shareholding to 66.64%. Under company law Kroenke, as majority shareholder, is obliged to make an offer for the remaining shares in the club, which would include those owned by Red & White Holdings as well as any stakes held by the remaining minority shareholders of the club;[2] these include those owned by former players as well as three shares owned by the Arsenal Supporters' Trust. (From Wikipedia)
David Stevens
171 Posted 18/05/2016 at 14:11:23
Just a thought, but do you reckon Kenwright might have insisted on, as part of the investment agreement, an obligation from the new major shareholder (and friends) to put stadium construction funds in place and construction work begun before he sells the remainder of his shares?

Also, as part of Moshiri's (and friends) investment did they insist on something in place in terms of a stadium plan on a different site to Walton Hall Park before making their initial investment. Basically a guarantee that they can add extra value to their investment by increasing their net assets.

If it's a yes, to all of the above then that makes the timescale of 3 years sound doable. The statements from Joe Anderson seem so cock-sure that it sounds like he is privy to some pretty concrete evidence that spades are going to be in the ground very soon. How long does a decent stadium take to build/plan? I'm presuming it'd be more than 2 years, which means we'll be starting 2016 and an announcement cannot be far off.

Kenwright may not have managed us well over the years and took god knows how long to find investment, but i'm pretty sure he and his ego would like to feel he has contributed to a legacy that would be of benefit to Evertonians for generations to come.... and a spanking great 60,000-seater, waterfront stadium (am I dreaming?) would fit that spec.

I personally believe Usmanov, or other very rich associates of Moshiri will join us (just a gut feeling) as his own personal wealth is not enough for the initial investment,

Thoughts?

PS: as a footnote I noticed on this Link a quote 'The offshore takeover vehicle used by Farhad Moshiri, Blue Heaven Holdings, was setup eight months ago, in August 2015' ....which would suggest they have had plenty of time to sound out the city Council, Peel and other land owners as well as stadium contractors

PPS: There is no way these guys are going to pass up the opportunity to build on the waterfront (if it's definitely an option). They want the control they weren't given at Arsenal and they want to make a statement. Unlike the past I don't think cash is going to be an issue!

David Price
172 Posted 18/05/2016 at 14:16:25
Iain nothing substantial but there maybe something brewing mate.
James Marshall
173 Posted 18/05/2016 at 14:39:14
Following some Internet research, it turns out I live less than a mile from Usmanov's London property......which cost him £48m. I might pop round.

I also found a comment which says (regarding Arsenal), "Usmanov, who remains a major shareholder, states that he has no intention of selling his shares".

Stewart Lowe
174 Posted 18/05/2016 at 14:49:11
A common wealth games stadium would be a massive mistake. It would be structured in such a way the seating would not be tight to the pitch. It would absolutely kill the atmosphere we have at goodison.

Ideally we need a 55000 seater where the closest seats to the pitch are just a meter away and the stands have a steep incline that keeps the noise in. I love the stadium Valencia have where the noise is something else.

Iain Johnston
175 Posted 18/05/2016 at 15:01:45
Usmanov became the owner of "Everton"

Russian businessman Alisher Usmanov has become the owner of the club of the English Premier League, "Everton". This "Championship" said a source in the English Premier League close to the deal. Usmanov also owns part of the shares of the London "Arsenal" (about 30%), but because it is not a majority owner of the "Gunners", that has the right to be the owner and other clubs from the same national league. Usmanov became a shareholder of "Arsenal" in 2007, by acquiring 14.58% of the shares. As for the "Everton", this team after 26 rounds is located on the 11th row in the Premier League table.

This has been translated from the original Russian text... I don't know how old it is though?

James Watts
176 Posted 18/05/2016 at 15:22:47
If only Iain (175) ....
Eric Myles
177 Posted 18/05/2016 at 15:29:36
Mark #169, you forgot to include the bit that says Usmanov refused to sell. He now has 30% of Arsenal which would presumably exclude him from owning shares in us without selling them

David #172, Moshiri has an agreement in place to take his share ownership to 75%, the 25% extra may be coming from Usmanov if he sells his Arsenal shares, who knows? We'll have to wait and see.

Stewart Lowe
178 Posted 18/05/2016 at 15:30:18
IAIN#175: consider it old newschool. This was bandied around just before Moshiri took control.
Kev Nulty
181 Posted 18/05/2016 at 17:26:21
I reckon they will build it on the waterfront ready for the Commonwealth Games bid. I would like a design like Sunderland's stadium but I will believe it when I see it. COYB
Ian Burns
182 Posted 18/05/2016 at 17:30:42
I have read every single word on TW with regards to the development of the new stadium, so I can fully understand the discussions and siting having been away from the city for many years.

Kevin - 145 thanks for the Link;
David - 147 - thanks for the posting;
David - 149 - thanks for a terrific post.

Fascinating stuff; enjoying every post.

John Louis Jones
183 Posted 18/05/2016 at 17:41:39
I find that a really interesting Link David #171 THANKS!

Indeed it does point to the fact that Mr Moshri has been planning ahead, You would not expect anything else from a accountant.

Gary Willock
184 Posted 18/05/2016 at 18:01:57
If someone put a 10 year season ticket contract in front of me now, for £800 a year in a docklands stadium, I'd sign for at least 2 of them (no more than most pay for car!)

If 25,000 others did the same - that would be £400m. Enough to build it. Add corporate hospitality and sponsorship = cost to run it covered.

Too simple, surely?!

Ray Robinson
185 Posted 18/05/2016 at 18:31:25
Gary, you want 25,000 to commit to £16,000 up front? What sort of job do you have? Most people take their single season-ticket out on finance and many can only dream of having one. Get real.
Gary Willock
186 Posted 18/05/2016 at 18:41:59
Ray, fair comment I guess. My point was that I WOULD do if it got us a stadium on the dock. I am not 'well off', but the way I see it that's no worse than buying a focus on tick, but over 10 years not 5. I didn't mean paying 16,000 up front either.
Dan Davies
187 Posted 18/05/2016 at 18:47:56
Bit harsh that Ray! Gary if your that flush mate I think you should be asking the club about debentures.

Debenture seats would be a quick way to raise money towards funding a new stadium even if it seems the funding is already there.

As Ray pointed out though you would need large numbers taking them up to raise substantial amounts of cash and for some it's not possible.

Saying that a shiny new Docklands stadium might tempt people to invest in them!

Chris Jones [Burton]
188 Posted 18/05/2016 at 18:49:53
Len, 57, how about 'Peel and Dean Stadium', just think of the advertising revenues!

FM is a billionaire. He's likely arrived at EFC with a plan already more than half-formed in his mind. The waterfront sounds mint - and could catapult us back in front of our noisy neighbours in one go.

But this is EFC, please don't fuck it up!

Brendan Fox
189 Posted 18/05/2016 at 18:50:28
Hopefully there will be some substance to some of the various rumours about potential locations but ATM I will not get carried away until an official announcement is made. Hopefully Mr Moshiri is as ambitious as everyone is making him out to be.

Come on Sevilla pump them gobshites tonight!

Tony Williams
190 Posted 18/05/2016 at 18:51:09
Heard so much of the new ground over the years it's becoming an (oh yeh, not that again) but if this is real it has to be the Waterfront.
Ray Robinson
191 Posted 18/05/2016 at 18:56:48
Gary, as Dan pointed out, maybe I was a bit harsh! Sorry. Funnily enough, despite my being a committed Evertonian, other than being a season ticket holder, I've never invested a penny in the club. There's something about committing money long term to the club that makes me break out in a cold sweat. The prospect of Martinez leading us into the Championship (thankfully passed) or the fact that we may have to write £13m off on a very dodgy forward makes me very cautious!
Gary Willock
192 Posted 18/05/2016 at 19:06:56
Thanks Dan, and no worries Ray! Was a bit naive of me to think that many others would do the same. To me the very thought of watching us in a world class docklands stadium with my kids (rotating - not that flush!!) is just exciting beyond belief. People take finance like that for all kinds of things (weddings, holidays, extensions, cars) and I'd do it to watch us in a place like that.
Jay Harris
193 Posted 18/05/2016 at 19:14:06
Gary
A good bit of thinking outside the box there but don't forget although it will help the funding it also denies a return for 10 years.

Bit like "Devastated Bill" mortgaging our advance gate receipts.

Moshiri must know that retail is all about location, location, location and therefore the dock site is a no brainer unless Peel are looking at an exorbitant sale or lease amount.

The cost of building the stadium will be about the same no matter where it is located so the enabling conditions will be the deciding factor.

Alan Peake
194 Posted 18/05/2016 at 20:33:07
If its true that Moshiri is starting to make decisions now, then Kenwright can't lose.

If things start to look up on the team and stadium front Kenwright just goes along for the ride taking all the praise.

If anything goes belly up, then you can rest assured that he will make it clear that he was against it.
Peter Laing
196 Posted 18/05/2016 at 23:48:31
Slightly off topic, I've now been to Wembley on four occasions and the atmosphere, facilities and general match experience for supporters is of very low quality. We need something iconic for Everton that can generate much needed revenue but retains the bear pit atmosphere created when the old lady is rocking.
Phil Parker
197 Posted 19/05/2016 at 01:13:39
The site on the North docks is even better than the Kings dock site. Every ship sailing in or out of Liverpool will pass it. It is a big piece of land, right on the riverside, inside the dock wall. Clear, flat and ready to be developed. It's an industrial area at the moment, with the exception of the Titanic hotel. This will be the biggest game changer in all our lifetimes, along with Mr Moshiri and his finance of course. Got my prayer mat out.
John Louis Jones
198 Posted 19/05/2016 at 07:43:57
The Echo this Morning have named 2 areas of Dockland land that Everton are looking at.

Clarence Graving Dock on Regent Road
And
Collingwood Dock

I think that the site In Croxteth just might be a smoke screen.

I don't know the docklands that well what are you thoughts?

Dan Aspinall
199 Posted 19/05/2016 at 07:54:44
There is a huge amount of land underemployed right along the river. It's a no-brainer for the club and the city. Just by St Michael's Station there's a huge plot more or less empty that would be nice. It seems like there's a million parking spaces there for a couple of rusty old eyesore warehouses.
Ian Cowhig
200 Posted 19/05/2016 at 08:55:28
The revenue generated by a dock location will be far greater than out in Croxteth.
Just imagine a visitor to the city looking for something to do. Someone suggests a tour of the new Everton stadium. 'Great is the reply. How do I get there'.

'Just along the waterfront' comes the reply - visitor heads of down past the Liver buildings on his way to the stadium.

'Get the bus from Liverpool to Croxteth, take a left, then a right and you will be nearly there' comes the reply - visitor heads of to see if the WackerQuacker is back, up and running.

Jim Lloyd
201 Posted 19/05/2016 at 09:06:15
A couple of points that I'm thinking about.

It's great that we now have some indicators that Mr Moshiri is beginning to take over at Goodison Park. It looks like we are going to get the best manager available to us. There are signs that the politicians are now beginning to think of supporting Everton at last, in terms of finding a suitable site for a new stadium.

However, what happens regarding Everton's future if it involves a new ground, will have a massive effect on the area of Kirkdale/Walton.

I regularly walk round Stanley Park/Anfield Cemetery/Walton Church and County Road and think what iot would be like if EFC made their new home in Stanley Park.

There was provision, I seem to remember, for LFC to build a new 60,000 seater ground in the Park, on the site of the old sports centre and it's car park.

I also seem to remember that there was a plan developed by the two sets of supporters, for a Footbal Village and museum, of football to sort of link the two stadiums.

I'd hope, before the City Council get carried away with the rush to generate the business/retail opportunities, a new ground would bring, that the Club and the Council, think about what effect the move (if indeed the club decided to move, rather than re-develop Goodison Park) on the area.

Some might argue that' it's no concern of EFC what happens to the area but I think it should be a major consideration of the Council's thinking should a new ground be the way forward.

Put simply, a lot of small businesses would likely die along County Road/Walton Rd?City Road, in what is already a deprived area. The deprivation would likely increase with the closure of those businesses.

I would hope that included in the thinking of the Council, is a new Stadium in Stanley Park for Everton Football Club, with the ensuing benefitsfor the area that of a football village/museum, would bring.

It looks like the Council are providing the site of the proposed stadium in the Park, as a sort of processional way to the lfc ground. Before it is too late, I hope the the club look at the the long term benefits that a stadium in the park would bring before rushing into the area of Clarence Dock or Croxteth.

For information. There is absolutely nothing in the way of facilities in Croxteth eg pubs, food bars, , although there would likely be some development of these, it would I think, be only whatever was in the ground.

There is nothing in the area of Clarence Dock either; although, again, retail outlets are probably likely and there would be space for a hotel included, I would think.

Transport to/ and parking at or neart both sites are limited as the East Lancs Road and the Dock Road are the only major routes to/from the two sites mentioned.

So, although it might seem a great idea at the moment, and the hope of the Council to bring the Games to Liverpool might be part of their thoughts; to me there is a lot more at stake for the club and the area, than the Mayor's desire to see those games in Liverpool.

As for us, then I can see that it is an argument that the supporter's main thought is go the match and see our club successful again and not be concerned about local considerations. But I see no harm in considering both.


Brian Harrison
202 Posted 19/05/2016 at 09:18:49
Jim

I think you can take it the we will not be interested in moving to Stanley Park, nor will we be thinking of redeveloping Goodison Park.
There seems according to Joe Anderson a straight choice between 2 sites, and the speculation is its either the docks or Croxteth. Yes it will seem very strange not going to Goodison but times change. But Goodison and the surrounding area has had its day, but I do hope the community will be given some help by both the Council and the club.

Charlie Gibson
203 Posted 19/05/2016 at 09:49:45
Just over two years ago, at the end of Martinez's wonderful first season in charge, I wrote this - even then we all recognised the urgent need to solve the stadium issue:

"1892: Goodison. 2014?" Link

If you ignore the sunny optimism concerning the manager and his performance in 2013/14, I think the rest of the article still holds true. A move to the northern docks, to a state-of-the-art, 60,000-seater iconic stadium in the heart of the city, would give the club a massive, massive boost. The point was that in 1892 the club aimed big, emerging from the fallout at Anfield to build the country's first purpose-built football ground. We need that same level of ambition now.

Interestingly, a lot of the comments at the time were along the lines of "sure, sounds fantastic - but impossible without a billionaire buyer".

Enter Mr. Moshiri!

Peter Morris
204 Posted 19/05/2016 at 10:08:34
John (#198),The precise location is a huge area of cleared warehousing roughly opposite the Bramley Moor pub, before you get to the Stanley Dock warehouse, coming out of town.

Last summer there was a music festival on the site and a temporary drive-in cinema was also erected. I know that the council are keen to see the area between Leeds St and the Stanley Dock in-filled with new developments, but the problem for the city is that the land 'over the dock wall' is all owned by Peel and this is where they have their permission to build Liverpool Waters.

Since securing planning permission on this scheme, Peel will have been working extremely hard lobbying potential foreign wealth funds to join the vanguard of this development, and I think that all that can be said on that front is that it has been 'quiet'. This will have tested Peel's resolve to see through what even they claimed is a 30 year plus project.

Their experience of the last 3 or 4 years may just encourage them to reconsider the scale of the whole project, and to think about what the benefit a large scale sports stadium project could do for their ambitions, albeit curtailed ones. Much of the high rise stuff would have to be sacrificed to make room for the stadium.

Personally, I think Peel will be pragmatic. I think they would rather have a large slice of a scheme in the bank, rather than all of something that will never happen.

Charlie Gibson
205 Posted 19/05/2016 at 11:20:38
@John Louis Jones (198) - Both sites are next to each other and make a huge amount of sense.

A new station between Moorfields and Sandhills could serve a ground at Collingwood, Trafalgar or Clarence Dock – the station could be built in the scrub north of Sherwood Street, where there is loads of space for sidings for shuttle trains running into Moorfields on match days. A 5-minute walk from where the new stadium would be.

Could also build a big underground multi-storey car park into the station to cater for those driving in from north.

It looks like the perfect spot –- in desperate need of regeneration, with potentially excellent transport links; on the waterfront and in the heart of the city.

Iain Latchford
206 Posted 19/05/2016 at 11:29:28
I'm beginning to wonder if the club are going to announce everything in one hit...

New Manager
New Stadium
New Owner
Money to spend

What a day that could be!

Mike Doyle
207 Posted 19/05/2016 at 11:51:37
Peter [196]. Totally agree – in terms of environment and atmosphere, Cardiff beats Wembley hands down.

I live not far from Twickenham and that Stadium also beats Wembley – possibly by virtue of being a short(ish) walk from the Thames.

Alan McGuffog
208 Posted 19/05/2016 at 11:55:48
I just can't get away from one major issue here. This is Everton Football Club... always a dead cert to get things wrong.

If there is going to be a ground move, we will go for the most shortsighted, cheap and nasty option. An iconic ground on the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey near the centre of a city that has become one of the leading short break tourist destinations in Europe? Or a flat pack in a cultural desert on the East Lancs, handy for Gillmoss and... er, that's it.

If there is a major sea change in our leadership we may have a chance of the first. Me? I remember once there was a rumour of Widnes, for Chrissakes !

Andrew Clare
209 Posted 19/05/2016 at 11:57:06
If West Ham can sell 50,000 seats in their new stadium I have no doubt that Everton could do the same in a new 60,000 seat stadium in the right location.
Without doubt if this happens we will thrive. A new chapter will begin.
Rob Halligan
210 Posted 19/05/2016 at 12:17:49
I'm not quite sure where this Trafalgar Dock is? Is it the same site where the heritage market is / was? The missus has told me the heritage market is no longer there. I do know the market site, and from what I remember it's massive. Haven't been down that way for a few years though.
Iain Latchford
211 Posted 19/05/2016 at 12:55:05
North docks Rob, adjacent to Costco.
Rob Halligan
212 Posted 19/05/2016 at 13:01:37
Cheers Ian. I know where the Costco is. Opposite the Williams BMW showroom. (I think).
Iain Latchford
213 Posted 19/05/2016 at 13:05:06
Yes, that's right. Maybe they could bring the Manxman nightclub back as part of the deal.
Andy Burke
214 Posted 19/05/2016 at 13:17:20
Why can't it be built on Stanley Park where Liverpool were going to build?
Dennis Stevens
215 Posted 19/05/2016 at 13:37:23
㾼,000 on a car? Only if it came with a 25-year guarantee, Gary!
Gary Willock
216 Posted 19/05/2016 at 14:02:55
25 years, Dennis? Don't make them like that anymore, although I'm sure one of Bill's mates could come up with something for you.
Tony Dove
217 Posted 19/05/2016 at 14:06:05
Wake me up when these latest pie-in-the-sky schemes are recognised as unachievable/unaffordable. I imagine Moshiri has some sort of brain in his head so he will looking over at Anfield and taking note of the development going on there. It might even cross his mind that – if Liverpool can't afford a new stadium – how the hell can we???
Brent Stephens
218 Posted 19/05/2016 at 14:17:32
Trafalgar Dock I think is nearer Sandhills Station than is Goodison Park. So presumably the Soccerbus would still do the trick from Sandhills and no need for any new stations.
Mark Stone
219 Posted 19/05/2016 at 14:21:44
As things stand, 187 in the ToffeeWeb poll want to move to Croxteth. Does that mean 187 ToffeeWeb readers live within walking distance of Croxteth? I truly can't think of any other reason why anyone would consider that a better location than Trafalgar Dock.
Jay Wood
220 Posted 19/05/2016 at 14:28:45
Mark Stone @ 219

Rogue visitors to TW Mark ...?

Gordon Crawford
221 Posted 19/05/2016 at 14:40:12
It's a conspiracy, Mark. 🤔
Gordon Crawford
222 Posted 19/05/2016 at 14:43:07
Let's go for a 70,000 seat stadium. Really be ambitious about the whole thing. 😎
Steavey Buckley
224 Posted 19/05/2016 at 15:13:25
A 70,000-seat stadium would encourage to keep prices as low as possible, and be very competitive attracting supporters from other clubs such as from Liverpool FC. The location at Trafalgar Docks would also be a attractive location for other types of supporters.

In an age when Premier League clubs don't have to rely upon gate money for a big part of their income, when the bulk of the money is now coming from TV rights to screen matches live within the UK and rest of the world.

Brian Harrison
225 Posted 19/05/2016 at 15:15:11
I see the Liverpool Echo is carrying out a poll to see where Evertons new ground should be. 85% say the docks and 15% say Stonebridge Cross.

Let's hope the powers that be are taking notice of both this poll and the Liverpool Echo poll.

Joe O'Brien
226 Posted 19/05/2016 at 15:17:58
Because we've got more money than them now Tony (#217)... simple. They keep going on about how big their new stand is going to be. I hope it is in their dive of a stadium... hopefully it's big enough to see our spanking new ground lighting up down in the city centre. Exciting times to be a blue.
Dennis Stevens
227 Posted 19/05/2016 at 15:26:28
Funny you should say that, Gary. I recently bought a 25-year-old car, decided it wasn't quite what we needed & moved it on at a small profit. Went for a more modern one, only 18 years old!
Ernie Baywood
228 Posted 19/05/2016 at 15:34:48
We don't, do we, Joe? We have a guy with a lot of money who owns a portion of us but, as a club, our income isn't greater than theirs.

With their income, I'm sure they could afford it, it's just a matter of whether the business case stands up. They seem to have decided it doesn't. It may do for us given the poor state of our current home.

Bill Watson
229 Posted 19/05/2016 at 15:46:16
Alan (#208),

The 'Widnes rumour' was actually the old Cronton Colliery site which is very firmly in Knowsley. Tarbock Island junction M62/M57.

Joe O'Brien
230 Posted 19/05/2016 at 15:47:24
I know it's all only rumours Ernie but I think our new owner has some serious investors ready to join him. Eventually Usmanov will be on board. That aside, I think Liverpool after hearing our plans to build our new ground on the waterfront are after realising that they've definitely missed a trick by not getting there 1st.
Dave Roberts
231 Posted 19/05/2016 at 16:24:58
It might be a BIG stand at Analfield but that doesn't mean it's going to be pretty! Size isn't everything....or at least that's what my missus keeps telling me.

As for being able to see it from New Brighton, so what? You can see the roof of the Main Stand at Goodison from there as well. I'm looking forward to when passengers on Cruise Ships will be able to see our new stadium, especially if they arrive at night when there's a night game on and blue lasers are spelling out 'Kopites are gobshites' on the clouds.

Can't wait.

Tony Dove
232 Posted 19/05/2016 at 17:27:16
Joe @217. I hope you are right about the money. No-one will be more delighted than me if that proves to be the case but I am nowhere near being convinced. In any case, I have to own up to being a 'redevelop Goodison' man.
Brent Stephens
233 Posted 19/05/2016 at 18:12:49
Dave #231 "especially if [cruise ships] arrive at night when there's a night game on and blue lasers are spelling out 'Kopites are gobshites' on the clouds".

Naughty. But nice.

Daniel A Johnson
234 Posted 19/05/2016 at 18:21:05
This is all bollocks.

Any stadium development plan would need to jump through at least 600 hoops before construction can start.

Plus I've yet to even see Moshiri even open his mouth never mind design plan and fund a new stadium.

It's all pie-in-the-sky bollocks as all EFC stadium plans have been so far.

When I see the stadium, only then will I believe it. In the mean time lets have a whip-round to re-paint Goodison Park.

Ian Burns
235 Posted 19/05/2016 at 18:35:32
Daniel (#234),

I've been thoroughly enjoying this thread for 2 days, losing myself in the excitement of the posters and the thought of what could be – until your miserable post!

Colin Glassar
236 Posted 19/05/2016 at 18:37:25
Brent,

After reading about our neighbours pre- and post-match antics they could build a solid gold stadium and they would still smell of shame. What an embarrassment to the city some of that lot are.

Daniel A Johnson
237 Posted 19/05/2016 at 18:38:53
Ian, I'd like nothing more... but, until it's being built, I refuse to believe. After Kings Dock and Destination Kirby, I refuse to get carried away.

I'm beginning to think Moshiri cant speak – we've heard nothing from him.

Alan McGuffog
238 Posted 19/05/2016 at 18:40:30
Bill 229, yeah I recall it now... the old Cronton site. And I'd been worrying that it was in the middle of nowhere.
Brent Stephens
239 Posted 19/05/2016 at 18:50:13
Colin - hear hear. An embarrassment they are.
Martin Mason
240 Posted 19/05/2016 at 18:53:27
I like Moshiri's style. I believe he's working with the club behind the scenes and will say nothing until he has something to say and/or it's his time to take the reins if he ever does. BK's mistake was that he gave information regarding the possible developments at KD and DK and ridiculously raised expectations. He should have said absolutely nothing or absolutely minimum until the deal was done as good businessmen do.
John Keating
241 Posted 19/05/2016 at 19:02:52
Martin

one really good thing is that your nemesis KEIOC are back on watch.

Those lads will ensure those responsible for moving forward on any stadium issue are well "advised"

I am sure you will join me in welcoming them back on the scene – not that they really went away!

Colin Glassar
242 Posted 19/05/2016 at 19:13:16
Daniel has a point Ian. The only person who has spoken, so far, is Joe Anderson and although Joe might have inside information not a peep has come out of the club.

If this is indeed true I can imagine BK is wetting his pants trying to keep his trap shut and not start spouting off his usual OTT crap.

John Keating
244 Posted 19/05/2016 at 19:44:20
Colin
I think The Worlds Greatest Evertonians days are numbered and hopefully more business like figures will soon be talking for the Club about these important matters
Dan Davies
245 Posted 19/05/2016 at 19:46:59
Build it, and they will come! Ha ha!
Martin Mason
246 Posted 19/05/2016 at 19:58:07
John@241

KEIOC are a tiny and irrelevant minority group that is neither needed nor wanted by Evertonians, they have no relevance to the real problems that the club or fans face at the moment.

Stephen Davies
248 Posted 19/05/2016 at 20:06:54
What are the 'real' problems that our club and fans face?

And I would like to know about the 'unreal' ones too while you're at it.

Thanking you

John Keating
249 Posted 19/05/2016 at 20:07:13
Martin
how did I know almost word for word your reply.
In fact I should have written it myself and saved you the time and trouble.
Regarding their irrelevance I am afraid I cannot agree with you
Tony Abrahams
250 Posted 19/05/2016 at 20:17:12
irrelevance? Do you think we would be getting excited about a possible move to The Docks Martin, if KEIOC, hadn't stood up for a large part of the fan Base?
Joe McMahon
251 Posted 19/05/2016 at 20:17:53
It also has to be remembered that if Liverpool (the city) does host the 2026 Commonwealth Games, it won't be us that inherits the large new shiny stadium. Mind you Goodison wouldn't last another 10 years, already being 20 years past it's sell by (Nice one Bill).
Lyndon Lloyd
253 Posted 19/05/2016 at 20:39:39
Daniel (237), why does Moshiri have to say anything? The fact that he hasn't even taken a seat on the board but has installed a proxy for when he's needed is a good indication of how he wants to go about things from a public point of view.

I like the fact that he seems to be just getting on with greasing the wheels of our forward progress. I would far rather a silent man of action than someone who talks a good game but is never actually able to do anything.

Colin Metcalfe
254 Posted 19/05/2016 at 20:56:51
Interesting comments in The Echo that Peel stating that Liverpool Waters does need need kick starting and have projects in the works that have not been made public as yet ! Hmmmm playing hard ball me thinks !
Daniel A Johnson
255 Posted 19/05/2016 at 21:10:58
Lyndon, you are 100% correct he doesn't need to say anything and actions do speak larger than words.

But before I can get excited about 65,000 capacities and laser lights it would be nice for Moshiri to just actually say something about what his future plans are for the club and what's in development.

Maybe I'm a cynic but after Kings Dock and Destination Kirby I'll believe it when I actually see it.

Dan Davies
256 Posted 19/05/2016 at 21:21:00
All in good time, maybe Mr. Moshiri only talks when he knows he can deliver the goods?

Patience is a virtue and all that!

Ian Burns
257 Posted 19/05/2016 at 22:41:40
Colin - 242 - I take your point and I understand Daniel's reticence to get excited - but there is enough being said in the Echo; from the mayor and general social media to allow some optimism and I am praying the vote on TW and the Echo carries some weight. Moshiri only needs to come out when he is good and ready.

I have been a supporter for almost 60 years but despite the ups and downs over that frightening period of time, this is something to really get excited about, which is the general consensus on this thread over the past couple of days.

Kevin Rudge
258 Posted 20/05/2016 at 15:35:05
Sorry to add a dose of reality to proceedings but has anything official actually been proposed or are we feeding off Big Joe's ramblings still?

Surely if there was anything in the pipeline, the usual suspects would be shouting it from the rooftops, but we have been fed a morsel and made a stadium on the docks out of it... madness has ensued... long summer ahead!

Ian Robert
259 Posted 20/05/2016 at 19:45:12
when did KEIOC represent a large part of the fan base???
Tony Abrahams
260 Posted 20/05/2016 at 20:53:37
.??? When they faced Everton football club, and Tesco, over destination Kirkby, Ian.
Ian Robert
261 Posted 21/05/2016 at 07:27:16
oh I see that was all down to their massed thousands ??
Jeff Armstrong
262 Posted 21/05/2016 at 22:35:44
KEIOC, Martinez out, we are Everton, we only do things by halves.

Meek and mild, that is what we are...

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