Cleverley hurt and embarrassed by Everton disaster at Chelsea

Fuckin' disgrace.

Dour and reasonably successful
Exciting but unsuccessful
Dour but unsuccessful

This is not going well.

Perhaps Tom should at stay in a bad mood for a bit longer and not try to get over it. You were humiliated on Saturday and a self respecting player would be planning to take it out on the next opponent and not "put it to the back of your mind". Actually I find this attitude pretty disgraceful.

Just what is the manager doing when first team athletes come out with self help group shit like this?

The losses are a worry, especially the manner of this latest one. When does the "give him time" brigade start to realise that it is his job to fond solutions as quickly as possible?

This squad has gone from "our most exciting since the '80s" to "not good enough" in 18-24 months. It seems we're happy to find excuses to support the manager. I really do fear another blind faith scenario here with Koeman.

Sure, we're more organised these days and, until Saturday, harder to beat... but at what cost? We literally create about 3 chances a game on average and rely on individuals.

All of our attacking players are being asked to sacrifice their instincts for the good of the team (which in a twist of irony, was something Moyes was called for).

I'm seeing players who our new to the squad have average performances heralded as a "breath of fresh air". It's like some of us are desperate for this to be a success and will find straws to clutch at rather see the whole scenario in front of us.

For a manager who's not going to stick around long term, he's hardly in a hurry to get it right with us is he? By the time he's over a third of the way into his contract, we'll still be languishing mid-table saying 8-10 players "aren't of the quality he wants".

Excuse the negative nature of this post, but is it not his job (along with the expensive transfer guru) to ensure he has players up to the job? Ronald Koeman is paid very handsomely by our beloved club and is seemingly, at the moment, just cashing a fat cheque awaiting the next 'bigger job'.

Can we cancel the derby. We already know what's going to happen.?

Poor team layout on Saturday, poor tactics. Was as bad or worse than anything Martinez did in the last two seasons. We have too many bottlers in the team.

As previously stated we are light years behind and it seems Father Time is calling for many in this squad and can't happen soon enough. Koeman must be ruthless as at this rate it will be very bleak by Chrimbo. Too many pretenders and frauds in this squad and no fighters aside from Gueye and Barry.

If we can't turn over Swansea, then the stench reeking from Goodison Park and Finch Farm will be wretched for all Evertonians. The January transfer window may not be enough and I sense next summer will be the time if the there is any war chest...

Usual crap start to the week, the fans who went should get their transport and match ticket refunded. The RS are flying and watching the Chelsea players and The RS plus City, it seems that our players are taking the wrong stuff with their cornflakes, the urge and youthful vigour and never-say-die attitude are all traits this squad doesn't have.

Put Robles back in and seriously think about how we can beat Swansea. Living in blind hope at the moment.

So far, I've seen nothing to suggest a new dawn for the club under him and wonder if he saw it as just a pay rise.

Of course it will take time to implement his longer term plans for the team but there should be signs already of his intent. I haven't noticed them.

We don't have a football brain in the team – someone who can give a through-ball on the ground to Lukaku to create chances. Jags, Coleman, Cleverley, Barkley, McCarthy, Funes Mori Mirallas – all have to go just for starters... they are just not good enough. Probably Barry and Baines as well but they have served us well along with Jags.

He has to give the boys their chance, I don't know them all but so what if we get gubbed every other week – we wont get relegated and you will watch them evolve into a team of honest skilful triers worthy of wearing the jersey.

Ferguson had to do it with Man Utd in the early nineties, he had bought shite after shite and was almost out the door when he was forced to give the boys their chance and we all know what happened. I'm not saying this will happen to us but for goodness sake we have to change and try something different. I thought young Tom Davies looked very much at ease when he came on.

Give the lads their chance, Ronald.

Yes, I know they are obligated to reply if they are asked by the media; they could simply say words are not enough after such humiliation and we can only answer by our actions on the field.

One way is for these very, very rich people to have a whip round for the fans, the club has the names and addresses of all the fans who travelled to London on Saturday, even a tenner each would show these fans that the players care.

I will not be holding my breath and I know it is a ridiculous notion but the players owe these fans something – how about doing your duty and having a go in the next game and every game after that to the end of the season?

'I've had three or four bad days in my career.'

Fuck me, does he play for Barcelona? So if we get beaten 1-0, that's not a bad day?

'We're still learning...'

Are you 10 years old? Incredible.

'If we can beat Swansea at home it's not been a bad start for the manager.'

Disagree!

Tony, great post. I was one of those poor fuckers on the train (I made it as I left early). And Kevin, yes, they trot off back home with their 60 grand, they don't care Can you believe Cleverley earns a shed load? Why is he at the club?

The club is a shambles, cheers Kenwright.

Season's over; I said that after the Norwich game and still agree, unless we can miraculously win the FA Cup?

I'm 42 and still play to a decent amateur level and I would have definitely done more in an Everton shirt in your place given the number of appearances you have made than you have managed.

It amazes me that somebody playing central midfield can struggle to get more than 1 or 2 goals a season and is unable to do anything other than run around and give the ball to the nearest man. I'm tempted to say my 5-year-old lad would have offered more but that's stretching it.

Go and beat Swansea all you want. But it won't make a blind bit of difference to us because the next time we come up against anyone half-decent with a bit of pace up top, we're fucked.

We looked what we were Saturday: an ageing side with players who are just treading water And you all know who I mean. If this manager has anything about him, he'll blood the likes of Holgate, Davies and Walsh in place of Jagielka, Barkley and the suspended Barry. Unfortunately I won't hold my breath on that happening. It'll be Cleverley in ahead of Barry and possibly that'll be it.

That was shambolic on Saturday. But, if he keeps selecting these players, there'll be more of these days, I'm afraid. I'm not sure about buying too many players in January because it's never a good time to buy. But something's got to give because we need players and soon.

Forget that we weren't good enough, that is fair enough, it's the fact we just gave up, unforgivable. We fans will take a defeat from a team who is clearly better than us so long as we make them work hard for the victory.

It's very easy to say Chelsea were outstanding (they were) but how much of that was because we made them look outstanding? We just let them do what they wanted to do. We didn't compete and we didn't look to hurt them (apart from cheap shot fouls).

So you can fuck off with your comments, Tom, they mean nothing when you are able to just give up and let a team steamroller you. Come back when you and the team have grown a backbone and look as though you actually give a shit. Pathetic really.

Takes his wages home in a wheelie bin wanker etc etc'

You're probably going to get another four or five such interviews spaced over the next couple of weeks, all saying pretty much what you would expect. There's never any shock revelations or shooting from the hip. Just rote promises of going again and trying to make amends. Best to skip them altogether if such words are only going to further shove a bug up your arse.

Yes, of course it hurts like hell to get a drubbing and what makes it even worse is that lot across the park sitting on top of the league. There is still no reason at all to assassinate the character of the manager , players and board... YET!

Concerning the comments about Ronald Koeman using us as a stepping stone... isn't that what everyone does in some shape or form? Unfortunately there is no law that says everyone associated with the club has to swear lifetime service and allegiance.

Football and attitudes have changed and we have to accept that. As supporters, we have to believe that, given time, we will be competitive with the top teams again... but surprisingly it will not happen overnight.

Maybe the endless years of no money footballing mediocrity has turned you all in to manic depressives but come on, people, for goodness sake! Yes, of course have an opinion about our club, be it good or bad... but get behind them!

God help the player who went off script!

Bullshit 5 Sincerity 0.

Don't care much about interviews anyway. Do the talking on the pitch. Beat Swansea well and we will very possibly be in 6th spot above Mourinho's Utd after 12 games which I reckon is near the top end of what we could have expected given the shambles Koeman had to take over.

There are some very good teams in the Premier League this season and we are not one of them. Perhaps, with some new players and a new philosophy truly bedded in, we could be... but that takes a little time. As of now, I'd say 5th/6th would be a good achievement.

If you get 100% fit by working your bollocks off in training (Chelsea have apparently been doing double sessions daily for weeks), learn how to control the ball instantly, learn how to play an accurate pass to a speeding colleague, learn how to run like fuck to give the recipient an option for HIS pass, and learn how to shoot accurately – then you too will regularly win and even hammer the occasional team of lard-arse head-posers 5-0 or so.

That gives an insight into what we can expect in timespan plus a bit for clearing the mediocrities mentioned above. You are not going to get rid of 8 players in one go and replace them. We have seen from Spurs and the dark side what can happen when you do that, so I expect it will be a gradual process over a couple of windows underpinned with younger players coming through.

Off the field is a different story, and although Moshiri has brought in three new directors so far, I won't be comfortable until Kenwright and Elstone have left the boardroom so we can start operating as a commercial smart modern company and not a comfy cronies secret squirrel club.

Spot on. You have summed our situation up perfectly. Ongoing is the best we can hope for.

Next season may see us pushing for top 4, but that is through rose-tinted glasses!!

Is that the same embarrassment you had after the performances against Liverpool and Sunderland last season? I'm fucking embarrassed because I took time out to read this fucking meaningless nonsense.

I still believe Koeman will eventually make us a better team; the players are not putting the effort in that the manager requires and on Saturday they were very very poor. If you were in any way happy with that performance, you are very easily pleased.

I repeat again – we were talking about Saturday's game and the performance.

Interesting he was at the game with Usmanov on Saturday.

But nothing of substance from what I've read in the Echo reports.

Why doesn't he talk to the local media? Why doesn't he use the Club's media outlets and talk directly to the fans?

However, it is clear that Koeman is his manager and that he trusts him implicitly and he does mention that a stadium is on the agenda but no real details of where, when or how much it may cost.

We live in hope, as is the fate of an Evertonian.

'Nice words, how about showing your collective embarrassment by compensating the travelling supporters?'

Agree. Cost me over a ton for the day. If the manager and players clubbed together they could at least pay our ticket money back. If they did that, I would have more respect.

Then I checked my calendar and I am here. I am dreading that one, they can utterly take us to the cleaners like they have done a few times of late. I fear a drubbing.

Watching MotD last night, you could see even at 3-0 up they weren't content with retreating and sitting on it like we do when we score 3 in a first half, they know goals win games so just keep going for more.

Yes they will provably win the derby on current form; do you really think they will let their fans have a miserable Christmas a few days later? That privilege is always reserved for our fans in this city.

Tour of prospective sites for new ground:

"It was smashing being on the train with Bill. Give me one of his butties and everything he did"

Coping with defeat:

"The fans need to know Bill feels it more than the most feelingiest feeler from the planet 'Fondle-Fondle-Oops, Finger!-Fondle' when Everton get beat. He literally digs himself a large hole, burrows underground and lays there silent and dead, dead, still for ages, before thrashing about on his stomach like one of those Graboids from Tremors and popping his head back out when things take a turn for the good again."

Forget Bill, Farhad. It's all about you now. Just you.

Give us something solid to grasp on to. Maybe a firm statement of intent or an outline of the first steps ahead, rather than fluff about being bitten by that bastard 'Everton bug', a hazy vision of something, some indefinate distance off, that 'simply has to be better than what we have now surely' and a hand prematurely raised ready for a high-five.

He promised a new stadium as a prerequisite to achieving his ambition, but was at best sketchy on location etc. He described his investment had been based on the great work of David Moyes, which he'd admired for years, and went on to say that Everton were the last big club in the country not already in the hands of folks who are, my paraphrase, avaricious mega-rich entrepreneurs.

He also has a pleasing-sounding voice.

Moshiri on stadium options:

'For our club to complete in the North West of England, the Hollywood of football, we needed a star. So we got Koeman. I paid the debts, we have a very strong balance sheet and we need the stadium. The fans must know we have done the hard bit. We have repaid the debts, we're free to do what we want, we have the finances to do it.

I enjoyed the train ride to Liverpool with Bill, we visited all the sites with the mayor, the club has taken sounding from the fans. In our mind, we know where to go. We are committed. I want to reassure fans they will have a stadium that rewards their loyalty. That is my key aim.'

Why Moshiri bought Everton:

It started with David Moyes and they caught my attention. Bill educated me about the history and what the club was about. It's just unique, there was one big club left to buy and it was Everton. He is an amazing man, the fans should know he deeply loves the club. He actually gets sick when they lose, you can't speak to him. He goes into dark rooms.

Moshiri on Koeman:

The manager is committed and he's ruthless. If a player is not up to it, he'll say it. He is not sentimental. Koeman is Koeman, he does what he wants, and I support him. The job of the owner is to hire and fire the manager. Everything else is down to him. Our job is to back him. He has the aura and ability, we trust him.

Moshiri on the future:

I feel sadness seeing Everton lose more than I ever did from Arsenal. As a majority shareholder, you feel responsible. I avoided the Sunday papers but I couldn't get it out of my mind. Last year we had a terrible home record, the club is going the right way, our plan was to get into Europe at the start and we're on target. The manager will strengthen where necessary, it's not all doom and gloom.

Moshiri on transfer plan:

Farhad Moshiri says Koeman got four of the seven players he wanted. Mentions Koulibaly, Sissoko and Lucas Perez You don't really know if that would have helped up. Lucas has been injured, Sissoko is suspended, you just never know.

Moshiri on Stones & Lukaku:

I didn't want to sell Stones. I wanted to keep Romelu and we did. The three big stars were Romelu, Ross Barkley and Stones. The boy wanted to go, Martinez had promised him he could go the following year but I still didn't let him go until Koeman said we could. What is 㿛.5m? We tried to buy Koulibaly and they wanted 㿨m. It's monopoly money, it doesn't mean anything.

Shearer pointed it out on MotD2 with Swansea; standing off, no one prepared to put a tackle in, get a yellow card, do some fuckin thing to show you care.

It's been been pointed out, it isn't rocket science; as Shankly said all those years ago, work hard with the ball, and twice as hard without it.

Look at Hazard,a 'flair' player but was still closing down the embarrassed Tom (notso) Cleverley even with the game won.

A piss-poor display and we can only hope that it's a watershed.

https://soundcloud.com/the-esk/moshiriwhite-71116

Very good interview.

40 days until the derby. Any guesses on the score?

The 3 leagues games we have lost have been awful in terms of performance, and the fact 2 of them were at weaker teams gives me reason to worry.

Do I want Koeman out? No – that's maddness but far too many want to give the fella a free ride for his project. In Moshiri's own words, Koeman is ruthless, and I have said all along we should treat him by the same values he treats us and his players. Ruthless and direct.

So to date, 18 points isn't bad and has been achieved with performances that fail to ignite your heart but wins tend to gloss things over, I guess. Everton have not put more than a single half of decent footy together in any game.

Koeman's single improvement is we stay in games, at the cost of being unable to dominate for large periods. Yes, hilarious I know, on the back of a 5-0 ass-kicking but the remainder of the games played bares this out.

That doesn't cut it for ٤m a year. I want to see existing players improve, and a pattern of play I can recognize; if you are waiting for the transfer window just to swap out players here and there, you are not in my opinion doing enough

After nearly 15 years of patience, partly because I was so inclined and partly Everton's situation demanding nothing less, the time has come to be hard on all aspects of the club and not feel awful about it or be told by many that it's wrong, and too negative. We have the money and the vision to compete, based on Moshiri's words today.

Moshiri wanted ruthless, and as fans I don't want us to naval gaze and give Koeman an easy ride – we should hold him to task when he gets it wrong. 11 games in and out of the League Cup. To my mind, Koeman hasn't got that much too right.

The players can keep their nice little interviews and apologies... apply yourself and make the journey home for the many a proud one, even in defeat.

I believe the team got the train down there, did they get the train back??? I suspect not.

However, I don't think it's reasonable to expect Koeman to have made such a difference in so short a time. 8 of the team on Saturday were regulars for Martinez... I guess we need a couple more transfer windows.

Incidentally, how did Tom Davies do in his 25 minutes?

That said, the team were not at the races on Saturday in terms of mentality so this needs to be dealt with, but also Chelsea were fantastic.

Let's move on.

Since his arrival, he has made so many player selection and team tactical errors! (The majority of the losses could have been avoided with some management savvy...) I'm just waiting for him to get some game management, right for once. We've had some shocking losses this season already and it's only fecking November!!!

One bit of advice Duncan should give him is... have faith in the young lads, they will deliver more than those over-paid fuckwits he is playing every week and they keep letting him and us fans down every week... for fuck's sake, grow a pair!!!

Although, one good thing that came out of that embarrassing game – the performance of Tom Davies. The lads performance was exceptional considering the shit that was going on beforehand. If that performance don't earn him a regular place... feck all will! I'm proud he's one of us, a 'massive talent'. He is ready to start games, he has proved his worth to the team; all he needs now is a manager who does what he said he would do.

"If you're good enough, you're old enough!!"

Cleverley is not good enough for the present Everton let alone the Everton side in 2 years time. McCarthy and Besic need to prove they can stay fit or else they will be on the scrapheap too come summer.

ToffeeWebbers, like me, have always commented on the Everton habit of 'two halves' – one, crap, the second much improved, and why they can't seem to put the two together. Against Chelsea they finally did and provided us with the worst 90plus minutes of negativity possibly for decades.

Even my, now 'local' team, Toronto FC, put out a great display in the second leg of the MLS playoff semis, scoring a 5-0 win away to New Yorks Lampard and Co at Yankee Stadium the same night.

As a player, I am no fan of Cleverley at all and most certainly think that these youngsters would give the effort in every game but what manager would go to Stamford Bridge and pick them? Koeman has to go with the best he's got... for now!

We all know the January window will be farcical and extortionate, but I do think we have to get a couple in and then also try to move mountains in the summer. It's then really I think we can start to cast a much more cynical eye over the management and recruitment teams.

He'll be in a bad mood for a couple of days will he?

Try 20+ years you daft twat.

Lukaku and Bolasie knew it was all over, because they were starved of service, so had a laugh. I had to look at the team sheet to realise that Cleverley, Mirallas and Barkley were actually on the pitch. If Martinez was still charge, the fans would be still calling for him to be sacked.

Now... who to appoint next? Let's see, Unsy, Sheeds, Ferguson the choices the choices way above my pay grade and now I return to the good nurse for my medication.

The much smaller clique will know they're secure but until Koeman signs professionals worthy of the name they too don't really have to put a shift in.

Then there's the youngsters, keen as fuck to get into the team and probably increasingly frustrated to see what we all see and still not be given a chance to play.

January can't come quickly enough.

He was calling for the players to shut the fuck up and shove their apologies and promises up their arses all day yesterday.

Sound advice I thought... Perhaps Cleverley hadn't logged on!

I can't understand why Koeman didn't instruct the players to abandon the 'hoof ball' and play it through midfield/wings. Bolasie was anonymous because no-one passed to feet. Why he took Ovideo off and put Funes Mori at left back, I don't know. For about 10 minutes in the second half, they tried a bit of football but, when Chelsea scored again, it was abandoned.

Koeman should have subbed Barry at half-time for Davies; gone to 4-3-3 and played through Chelsea giving the midfield some ball. Unlike some here, I'm not as critical of Cleverley and Barkley because (apart from 10 mins in second half) they didn't get any real possession. They spent most of the day chasing Chelsea players!

Enough of this ignorant commentary. Nobody has called for him to be sacked, but people like you keep answering posts that clearly talk about the tactical failings with this ridiculous strawman argument that we are calling for the manager to be sacked. He didn't say that, I haven't said that, I haven't seen a single person call for him to be sacked.

Instead, why don't you try pointing out where Steavey or myself or many many others are wrong in our criticism of that match and other matches so far this season?

You think it was a good tactical decision to go into a match with 8 of the 11 players being defensive? Because the manager obviously knew he blew it after we quickly went two goals down and tried to change it up. We offered nothing in attack all match, nothing. We went into that match hoping to just be able to park the bus defensively and failed miserably.

For example, 4-4-2??? With a high press??? (dangers if caught on the break; energy levels to sustain a high press?).

The current back 4 incl Oviedo? Or bring in Holgate and bench Oviedo? Not much to choose from there.

Midfield: Barry, Cleverley, Lennon and Barkley? Again, not much to choose from, apart from possibly chancing Davies instead of Cleverley?

Lukaku and Bolasie? Mirallas and Delboy are offering little. Who else? Not a great deck for Ron to deal from. I would be interested in selections / formations / tactics for that game.

Cleverley has become our latest scapegoat but, like a few have already said, Koeman's choices are very limited. He was hardly going to throw a very inexperienced 18-year-old into the starting lineup against Kante and Co.

Moshiri does indeed sound very positive saying he's cleared all the debts first and we are now free to do as we want as we have the finances. That's a big statement and makes me think he wants to be the Man City of Liverpool (maybe with less millions).

He sounds like he's been following Everton for a while and he knows our fans have already been patient over the years and we don't run around like headless chickens making rash decisions.

For Koeman, this could be his real big success story. A big club with history, a new owner with money, a new stadium, great rivalry in one of the best leagues in the world. I think Koeman is not thinking about Barca but knows this is the biggest project he has had to date.

I'm not defending anybody's tactics or game-plan, it quite blatantly didn't work. However, many (including myself) have gone to great lengths to put forward some obvious points, such as a lack of investment, both last summer and previously, the failure of this group of players to fully implement ANY gameplan to any satisfactory level for a long period of time, and the failure of the current group of players to carry out the most basic fundamentals of football.

Koeman, or indeed any other manager, can't wave a magic wand and suddenly make this group of players do exactly what he wants if they refuse to listen or are unable to play the game to a basic level. He could choose to promote youngsters but that would be fraught with dangers too.

At the moment, the manager has to use the players available to him and give them directions which he must believe are best for this group of players, until he can replace the ones he doesn't believe are fit for purpose.

I'm not a professional football coach, I don't know what Koeman sees from his players every day in training but I can only trust that he knows what he is doing and he doesn't need me or anybody else to defend him.

Will he make mistakes? Of course he will. Will Everton lose games whilst he is the manager? of course they will. Will we as fans accept those defeats with good grace? ... Probably not – but we should reflect a little more on where we are and have been for a few years and realise that Koeman or A N Other have a massive task ahead of them in trying to find a formation that suits the current players and will accrue points more regularly and hopefully with a style of football that is good to watch.

For the moment, I'll leave him to get on with the job he is paid to do; if it goes pear-shaped, we'll see what the club does in response. We are fans and have only one clear choice: pay to watch the team or choose not to – everything else is in the hands of those who run the club; we can only hope they know what they are doing.

Most blues would agree we're in dire need of player investment, Chelsea brightened up their squad with Luis, Alonso, Kante and the young Belgian forward, the total investment around 𧴰m, also they recalled Moses who has now become a regular.

Chelsea added the above to a squad full of 㿊m players, full of players who would pretty much run our team even though they can't get a go for Chelsea.

Fabregas not in squad, Oscar, Begovic, Ivanovich, Terry and Batshuayi all on bench, imagine bringing a few of them into the team, Fabregas in centre mid, Oscar left mid, Begovic in goal and Batshuayi as a partner or sub for Rom.

Unfortunately that's the gulf in class because, if we're honest, how many of our starting 11 at The Bridge would get into their team? My honest guess would be Coleman for Moses at best.

In a way, it's not a bad thing we got hammered; a 1-0 defeat would have been accepted, but a 5-0 hammering will set the alarm bells ringing and will surely strengthen Koeman's hand when requesting transfer funds in January.

I believe we're a fair way off where we want to be, but we have the right people now within the club to push us on.

In my estimation at the beginning of the season, if Everton had ambitions for a top 4 place, only 2 players should have remained, that was Lukaku and Stones. Lukaku is the only one remaining.

Have the new signings improved Everton? Marginally. Williams is definetly better than Jagielka and Funes Mori. Yet, he is 32. Upfront, Bolasie is better than Mirallas and Deulofeu, but Evertonians expected more from him.

Have the tactics improved under Koeman? No. Everton still have no midfield unit, the Everton midfielders go where they like, and the defence still rely upon Barry to look after them. And there is still no width on the left.

What you trying to say, Tom Cleverley?

Patrick, how long have you got? You've been called out on your straw man case, but just because nobody is calling for Koeman's head, doesn't mean they should not expect big improvement on the shite we witnessed last season. We are not seeing it.

We want to see bravery from the manager – not gutless surrender before a ball is kicked. We want to see some signs that he is starting to know the strengths and weaknesses of the players. We want him to be more adventurous and, most of all, we want people to stop bleating about money. He's been turned over three times already by managers who can only dream of the budget he operates with.
We were garbage last season and having spent £50m we are still garbage.

BTW... what do you want? Placid acceptance?

If it was possible, I would settle for the late Howard Kendall and Harry Catterick as managers. They knew what players are needed and set them up to win matches. Under Martinez and now Koeman, wrong players playing in wrong positions and wrong tactics.

It's not as if football is rocket science and a university degree is needed to understand football. The goalkeeper has hands and feet to stop the ball going into the net. The back four defend as a solid unit without the 2 full backs disappearing up front as wingers. 3 midfield players hunt the ball down together then pass the ball to the 3 upfront and then support them. Score goals at one end and stop them at the other, and win matches. What is so complicated about that?

Struth. You really do think, don't you, that over one summer we could not only have managed to sell on 13 players (13/14 duds, including the bench less the 2 you mention) AND have bought in BETTER replacements for every one! All before "the beginning of the season", as you say! What world is this?!

Moshiri baby, you've got to really make it up to us this coming window, mate!!!

Pretty sure he meant only 2 players should have been retained at all cost, not that the rest of the squad should have been sold.

Between the mob who pretend that some people who want him sacked and the mob who pretend some of us love him unconditionally, there's a big block of common sense that says the jury's out, could do better, wait and see.

Interesting piece in The Times today, reflecting that a year ago Liverpool were booed off at Anfield and Klopp was complaining at the fans leaving early.

Let's criticise Koeman's obvious errors, while realising that it's going to take a bit of patience.

Steavey will correct me, perhaps.

The signs have been there all along: the lack of a striker, attacking central midfielder, and No 1 keeper in the window; the Norwich debacle; Stekelenburg and Jagielka coming straight back into the side; Barkley benched for one match (as if he's going to improve for that!); the embarrassment of grovelling after a washed-up over-weight and over-30-year-old to come and rescue us, then Chelsea.

The successful sides are more often than not unchanged sides; once you start tinkering and changing systems etc, the average unintelligent young Bling merchant gets all confused and refuses to do anything because he doesn't understand. If the 'new manager phenomenon' actually happened, I must have missed it.

How many games have we actually 'deserved to win' this season? I'd say we are in a totally false position thanks to a large dose of lady luck. But that won't help us for ever, and with Stekelenburg, Jagielka, Barkley, Mirallas etc in the side, I dread to think what will happen on 19th December.

I just hope all our squad go down with flu, we give them the points and get a fine, because if it's Klopp's speed merchants v 10 of Ronald's robots, I will have to barricade my doors and windows, smash the phone up ,and start watching Ice Hockey on the box.

Why don't you show us it hurts with your performances rather than bollocks sound bites after the event?

Koeman has taken over a club that finished in 11th last season, and without Lukaku's goals we might have been relegated. Remember the derby and the match against Sunderland under Martinez?!?

Koeman and Walsh need longer than 4 months to sort this mess out.

You asked what we want and what I gave you are a couple of easily achievable things we expect. It has nothing to do with knowledge. Just simple expectation that our team will manage the very basics.

You have repeated your strawman argument several times this weekend then get all sarcastic when it's pointed out to you that nobody has actually called for Koeman's head.

Stating that your never-ending complaint about not having funds doesn't stand up when we've been humbled by Bournemouth, Burnley and Norwich has nothing to do with knowledge either, it's just a simple counter-argument to which you don't seem to have an answer.

If I want to know how much we have spent in comparison to the RS, I will investigate. I don't see what that has to do with the current manager doing a twat of a job at the moment.

Nobody is expecting us to suddenly start winning trophies or play like Barca. Nobody has called for the manager to be sacked but we are entitled to expect some pride, balls... signs of life.

It was interesting that, after calling for people to state what "exactly it is they want?" You didn't answer when the question was turned around on you.

I like and respect your posts, Patrick, but we've been here before. Your calls for reasonable patience on the back of to these abject performances are in themselves, unreasonable. It's like asking a starving man to mind his table manners.

Put aside all the shite that's gone before, all the perennial disappointment. This is about Koeman, about the here and now... and right now, he ain't doing it.