Allardyce: Everton are resigned to losing Barkley

Looks like Moshiri was speaking the truth when he said a £35 million deal was agreed and he was having his medical at Chelsea. Barkley lied about it by denying it on Twitter.

When Barkley plays, the opposition are scared of him – scared of his unpredictability – scared he'll pick the ball up and run at them with pace and power (remember that????). This means more than one player is forced to focus on Barkley and this creates space for our other players.

He's not the greatest or cleverest of players, but he's much, much better than the shite we've endured this season.

We have had incessant posts telling us Barkley would sign after Koeman was gone; It's all Koeman's fault... Barkley has been treated like shit...

HE DOESN'T WANT TO PLAY FOR HIS BOYHOOD CLUB.

It is that point that really upsets me.

And, before anyone goes on about Rooney, that was a totally different situation .

"Doesnt want to" and "has to" are two separate things.

As for unlocking his talent, the level he set in 2013-4 and the level he set from January to April 2017, don't forget we were a top four team in the second half of last season, or if we tailed enough to miss out, we just missed out. So for a sustained period, Barkley did show just how good he is.

Some have unrealistic expectations and want him to beat 5 men every time he gets the ball. If he does something crap 3 times for every time he does something right, then he's doing enough. And quite simply, he is by far our best player and we have struggled without him.

Why else has this team gone from Challenging for 6th to being as poor as we have been? If it is all Lukaku, then why haven't the strikers all been missing sitters? It's more than we've created nothing. And that, my friends, is due to missing Barkley.

As a player, he's just not that great. I certainly do not see him playing regularly for a club considered better than Everton, yet he seems determined to move. Having said that, I think he'd be a real asset at Everton which is why I'm sad to see him go.

To me, it makes no sense though. Barkley will not do better than Everton so why not stay? Is he that miserable here? Is he delusional? Does he think he's some sort of superstar?

It isn't. It wasn't. He could have signed a new contract by now. He wants to go.

Doesn't want to be here and hasn't wanted to be since Martinez left.

Martinez was the only one who got anywhere near some good football from Barkley, notably 2013-14 and a brief three month spell at the start of the 2015-16 campaign.

He doesn't want to stay, he shouldn't have screwed us over last August.

I'll put good money on this time in three years he's at Newcastle, West Ham or some other mid-table rabble.

I'd hope he'd give the new regime at least 6 months before trying elsewhere if necessary!

At the moment I'd say we need him but I think he also needs us as can't see him getting on Spurs or Chelsea teams!

Come on Ross - tell your agent to do the right thing!!

As for the "contract offer", does anyone actually know what he was offered? It could have weird or wonderful terms or clauses to it to make it sound lucrative but at the same time be less than reasonable.

He's doing the right thing for his career and has every right to do so. Have a problem with it? Blame the ownership of Everton for allowing this club to sink to the state that it is currently in.

I agree, it's really hard to even begin to comprehend what is going on in Ross Barkley's mind.

But on previous threads, a number of posts have identified his personal off-field situation on Merseyside as the causative factor, rather than the club, it's managers, or fans.

The fact that it started to affect his game so long ago, and does not appear to have changed despite changes in owners, managers, projects and philosophies in the meantime would seem to support that – while neatly giving everyone at the club a pass on this incredible failure to hold on to one of our best ever prospects.

We've seen far better players than Barkley leave this Club. If he doesn't want to be here then thank you and goodbye.

If he feels he'll get more game time at Chelsea or Spurs then good on him and time will tell. It's entirely his decision to leave regardless what the Club offer his head has been turned.

Let's move on and concentrate on more important matters.

The point is Barkley can move to Southport or Formby, West Manchester, East Cheshire, or The Wirral. All lovely areas inhabited by footballers with big mansions playing at Everton and other northwest clubs. He can change his personal life without changing his club.

Sign a new striker and then bury the bad news about Ross under the confetti.

'tis a bittersweet experience being a Toffeeman.

He wants off and has done for quite a while.
Ready made excuses make it easier for him.

Where are all the posts blaming Allardyce?

Fucking unbelievable.

I know people are critical of Allardyce but to actually mention his name in a post about Barkley leaving is completely out of order.

Post 15 doesn't mention Allardyce. It says he must have been gutted when Koeman was sacked because Koeman being here would have provided an excuse for him leaving, presumably for those who believed that it was Koeman's treatment of the player that led to Barkley refusing the contract.

Are you seriously saying it is not a relevant factor to mention that he had one manager, in Koeman, who has publicly critical of him, far above that of criticism of any other player we had, to go to another manager who selected Livermore and Antonio ahead of him?

It is a factor that Allardyce didn't pick him. And I never said that it's Allardyce's fault, but it would certainly be something Barkley would consider.

Ross, lad – you ain't seen nothing yet until you'r playing in London with the notoriety of the player-bashing London meedia and the standards of the likes of those Johnny Come Lately Chelsea fans.

If you don't have 29 great games in 30, they'll rip you apart... and if you are fragile mentally, you are screwed up and sold off!!!

Are you really so bigoted??

Barkley made his feelings known to the manager and Club long before Allardyce was even thought of as manager here. How can you even imply it would be something Barkley would consider??

Had Barkley been a member of every England squad before and after the single one Allardyce was responsible for, then there may be something to mention in passing but you are really scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

The Barkley situation has got absolutely nothing to do with Allardyce; mentioning his name as if it had a minuscule to do with him leaving just shows the pathetic hatred shown towards Allardyce.

I can't really comment anymore as I'm getting disgusted by the anti-Allardyce feeling shown on every thread.

This thread is about Barkley leaving and nothing else.

Jamie Redknap, who had done a couple of interviews with Barkley, told us about a year ago that Spurs wanted Barkley. He was clearly interested. His head was turned at a time when Koeman was acting the twat. Now all we can do to counter interest from Spurs and Chelsea is offer him a stiff neck playing for Allardyce.

Cant think why he hasn't signed..

So I am home in 1983 and receive abusive call from EFC . Wanted to know why I wasn't renewing my season ticket. Conversation was a bit terse, did I know that other Cities were not as good as ours. Why are you leaving, this is the club you support, etc.
So it happens to all of us.

Very lame story aside,the only real grievance we can have, is that he is (possibly/probably) leaving on a Bosman. Hope he stays but denying your boyhood club a transfer fee is not how it should go.

I just don't see Barkley doing well here because of the above and I've got no doubt he'll bench warm elsewhere with the occasional England game and shine. It's not just a physical game and definitely a mental one too.

From my experience training marines I've seen plenty of hardcore recruitment fall mentally.

I'd like a bid for Zaha as my first choice player Aubameyang has Arsenal lurking.

Anyone know if Garbutt can come back from loan asap? Haven't seen his loan deal.

I'd counter the opinion on Barkley. The reason we went from nearly top 6 to bottom 3 was because the defence was leaking goals at an alarming rate. Not because we were missing Barkley. Now we've sort of got the defence solid we've picked up form and points.

Adds some perspective hey.

On the matter of Barkley possibly being pissed off with Koeman for the latter's behaviour, if this were the case then it's conceivable that he'd also be pissed off with the Everton board, since they apparently did little or nothing to stop Koeman. Which would, of course, do nothing to prevent him leaving for pastures new.

If you believe Barkley has had issues with Everton managers. then changing the manager should be cause for him to reconsider his position. Then, the fact that he is still offski despite having a new manager could indeed mean that Allardyce is a factor in confirming his decision to leave.

If you believe it's down to being scapegoated for poor performances, largely by the crowd, but to an extent by Koeman as well, then Koeman having gone should logically force a rethink... but it doesn't seem to have done. So again, perhaps Allardyce is a factor?

If you believe it's down to the poor terms offered in his new Everton contract, then that's a very simple "greedy bastard" rationale that enables you to reject all other explanations very easily.

If you believe the off-field explanation, and that he decided to leave a long time ago, and have all his Everton tattoos removed, that seems to show a desire to completely start over somewhere else, irrespective of who is the Everton manager.

Take your pick.

I always felt that Lukaku's lack of willingness to run the channels left Barkley stranded. Barkley needed a striker to run the channels so that he could pass to the striker or the striker needed to run the channel to create a diversion to open up space for Barkley.

If there's a way of keeping him at the club, it must be explored; he is a genuine talent and we need him.

But with Barkley, he's either going to a smaller club than Everton (if he wants to start) or else he'll be a depth player on on a Top 6 squad. I just don't understand *why* he sees either of those outcomes as desirable.

When the primary thought was he hated Koeman, it made sense. It no longer makes sense.

Although his leaving has nothing to do with Allardyce on the face of it, you can imagine that Alladyce's presence here is hardly motivation for Barkley to stay, given the 'style' of Allardyce's football as highlighted in hundreds of ToffeeWeb posts.

All that aside though, overall it's almost inevitable that Barkley would leave sooner rather than later, just like any other player here targeted by a top side. If he wants to actually win things, it makes sense for him.

It's got nothing to do with managers, fans, gangsters, or any of that stuff. And the idea that Barkley went "oh fuck Big Sam's coming, that's me off then", is beyond ridiculous.

Galloaway could be recalled from his Sunderland loan deal, which again hasn't done much for his career.

I agree with much of your comment on Ross, started off at seventeen with very good form and enormous potential, the potential is still there seven years later, don't know about the progress, maybe, possibly whatever.

If Ross was half as good as some of our fans seem to think, the big offers would have rained in ages ago – what happened to the 㿨M bid Citeh were preparing 2-3 years ago? It was just paper hype.

The evidence of our eyes tells us that he is very ordinary and rarely performed to his much hyped potential – no chance of being worth a place in a top 6 team – couldn't even get game time in a mediocre England team in the 2016 Euros.

Get what we can for him – he'll achieve very little in the game, just like he has in the last couple of years; mentally weak, poor decision-maker, lazy & not a team player. The sooner he goes, the better for the club & us fans.

Then drive down to the airport and catch a flight to London and sign for Chelsea or Spurs. He should not just hang around the Finch farm until the end of the season, and create a bad atmosphere. He owes that much, out of respect to the fans.

Doesn't matter what the reasons are/were he's been leaving from RIGHT THEN, always was and nothing's changed, and all the "I still think he'll stay" and "now Koeman's left it'll be different" hypotheses are just wishful thinking and daydreaming. (IMHO).

I like your inference, Stan, that Allardyce's appointment simply underlines and confirms that sad fact 1000 times over. But John isn't gonna like it...

I came to that conclusion after watching him fail to chase back on many occasions when he lost the ball, which was often. When Sigurdsson loses the ball, he chases back to get it, Rooney likewise (though he loses the ball far more often than he should).

I have watched Barkley for many years lose the ball and then his immediate reaction was to look up to the sky, arms outstretched, thus losing precious seconds to get back and help out the defence and midfield get the possession back that he had lost.

I have watched him go for goal when others have been better placed. I have watched him pick the wrong passes and I have seen games just literally pass him by. Yes, I am mentioning the negatives, but with the plaudits he receives and the importance fans put on the player, there shouldn't be so many negatives.

He has been dropped by Everton on occasions and overlooked by several England managers because his form made it possible for him to be overlooked (though I do have my own theories about England's selections, but that is one for another day).

I have no idea why he wants to leave, all is guesswork but it is just a pity that the club that have nurtured him, stood by him through injuries and poor form will get next to nothing in return for letting him go at 24. It just doesn't sit right.

Moshiri was well and truly fucked over by the collapse of Barkley's move to Chelsea and as the owner and having spent heavy to replace Ross my feeling is that from the hierarchies perspective there is no going back.

Ross has decided that his future lies elsewhere and to be honest we just need to move on. Given the extent of the injury, lack of game time and general state of mind Barkley has zero chance of making the England World Cup squad. It will be interesting to see where Ross does end up and whether playing for Everton really was the pinnacle of his professional career.

No point in keeping him till the summer. Get some kind of a fee for him and get him off the weekly payroll. If he knows he is moving on in a few months I don't expect him to put in a shift for us till then - plus it will take him weeks more to get match fit once he is ready.

Koeman, Unsworth and Allardyce can't all be at fault and I am sure he was offered a decent contract to stay.

Looks like Sam is hoping to create a bidding war - all be it a low priced one considering the short time left on his contract.

By bye Ross - don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out

Since then, I've realised , he's played us like a fiddle. Whether on the instructions of his management 'team', or what, he was on the verge of signing for Chelsea, before someone (or club), whispered in his ear, and said 'Hang on, get fully fit at Everton, on full money, and we'll be back in for you, with the added bonus, of a couple of million signing on fee'

Nice work if you can get it. The only people not to benefit are his boyhood club, who he has 'shafted' good style.

I'm convinced he could have made at least a substitute appearance by now, given the length of Bolasie's injury.

I'm putting my money on Spurs.

Or that winner against United , Arsenal, Chelsea or City???

No nor me because like Lukaku was so often slated , he never turned up for the big games.

Actually think the loss of the pacy winger Deulofeu was always greater anyway!!

SPOT ON - Agree 100%

I never agree with fans booing players (even the opposition ones, it makes them more determined, and it is just so bloody childish), the criticism levied at a 19 year old Tom Davies is ludicrous. But, do you think Chelsea, Spurs, Man Utd fans etc. will be more charitable to him?

My reference is to Barkley, if he hits a poor run of form, what do you think will happen?

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough!

Put the clock back 3 or 4 years to the U19 or U20 World Cup when he was the stand out player, head and shoulders above the rest and Harry Kane looked a complete donkey and Deli Ali was still in the MK youth team.

They have both absolutely flourished at Spurs and kicked on to much greater things including a regular place in the England team whilst Ross seems to have gone backwards.

Surely he must want to go to Spurs to develop into the player we all hoped that he would be with Everton? The Spurs players will have told MP how much raw talent he has and what he could add to the team there.

He will get to play in his best (only real) position of collecting the ball from the defenders and driving forward to create chances for Harry Kane and Deli Ali.

Or he could stay with us and create for Niasse and Siggurdson - which option would help fulfill his potential and get him back into the England set-up?

He had the potential to be very good but in reality he will be lucky to play in the premiership in a couple of years time with his lack of work rate.

Neither of us know! So, do we know he is being hounded out by his own fans? My point was, if that is the case, other fans will be less forgiving at the 'top' clubs. Lukaku has already had stick at Man U, he is there top scorer. Whether Everton fans' booing is more detrimental to Barkley as a Liverpool lad than that of other clubs, we can only guess at, but he certainly won't be treated more charitably imo. Again, we don't really know.

What we do know is that he is likely on his way out regardless!

One last point regarding the vitriolic comments of some, one of the biggest clubs in the country see his value. As did City with John Stones, I remember the good riddance comments about him too, and as for the ridiculous comparisons with Rodwell.. he has already outstripped by a country mile his achievements..
I personally look forward to hearing, at some point, the reasons why this boyhood blue, wanted to leave. Till then, nothing more to say but good luck.

I too don't agree with booing our individual players - if anyone could say he was hounded out by our fans it would be John Stones with the park End's reaction to him dribbling his way out of our penalty are v. Spurs in his last full season here.

No way has Ross suffered from this type of booing - if he's suffering it's from being too often told how what a diamond he is/was and realising he's not living up to it.

I too think some of the recent criticism of Tom Davies on here is way over the top and totally unjustified. Our younger players aren't being helped at all by the performances of the senior players. Tom, DCL, Holgate and Kenny have had too much pressure on them at their age and experience level - Barkley, with his several years in the squad should be classed as a senior player this season if he'd been physically fit to contribute.

All of this is indicative of the club , we spent a decent few quid this summer with a view to challenging the top six and are disappointed by our lack of progress.
In reality a decent few quid is about £200M too few to change things.
In reality Ross mesmerising lower teams defences wont get him on the plane to Russia whoever he plays for.

I would feel a great deal happier if Juan Mata and the left back from Bristol City were passing him on the way in. But hey, I gave up dreaming a long time ago.

Has Ross had his day? Would he if motivated and enthusiastic about playing with the new players...I just don't know.

Ross Barkley for whatever reason has decided to leave Everton, and although I don't personally remember Dixie Dean playing for the club, I always use his leaving Everton, as the starting point, when I name influential players who have either left by their own choice, or by the choice of the club.

Dixie Dean left, 'Everton are still here', Tommy Lawton left, 'Everton are still here', Alan Ball left, 'Everton are still here'.

There is a long list of good players who have left the club down the years, add Ross Barkley to that list, and I'm quite sure that Everton will survive.

It's a shame but players always come & go and it's not worth getting worked up over anymore.

Part of me still thinks he wants out of Liverpool as much as he wants out of Everton.

Maybe that's just too much pressure for him to bear.

Maybe he just wants to be a footballer with a bit of talent in a squad of talented players so he can have a fair degree of anonymity.

Maybe it's the reason he said no the Chelsea.

Maybe it's time we started to consider just how all of the saturated media coverage effects certain players.

I guess their managers know fuck all about football or Ross, maybe they should come on here and learn something from the fifa managers are us brigade.

I wish he was in our midfield now we might have someone trying to drive forward and look for a pass in the opposition box for once.

John Stones - City
Gerard Deulofeu - Barcelona
Romalu Lukaku - United
Ross Barkley - ???

All four of exactly the right age, profile, ability and potential to transform our club.

All four exactly the type of player we should be looking to recruit and retain if we are serious about competing at the sharp end of English and European football.

A truly impressive spine to a team. All gone.

What does that say about the custodians and management of our club, their ambitions and intentions for our club, and the status of our club?

The club has handled the Ross Barkley affair extremely poorly to the point we are only likely to receive relative pennies for our investment in the lad.

Not that I'm completely exonerating Ross. At least when Rooney left we got some considerable coinage for him. Ross' own choices and actions have denied us a similar compensation.

All very sad and inevitable for quite some time now.

Any long term progression up the league can only take place when we stop selling to our rivals.

If he wants to go this month and a club are prepared to buy him then sell. Better getting a few quid than nothing.

if he wants to go at season end then fair enough. Once fit IF Allardyce wants to play him then do so, if Allardyce wants to keep him away from the first team squad then so be it.

As mentioned before we have seen far better players leave this Club.

It's a great pity there has been no comment from Barkley as it might have made things far more comfortable for all interested parties.

Maybe no one will want to sign him and he'll be desperate to sign a contract to prove himself or he will be just another sad story of talent unfulfilled like Odemwingie.

Imagine Ross sitting outside White Hart Lane on the last day of the transfer window pleading with them to sign him

He's no Evertonian.

If you want to see past episodes of the club handling players dispassionately, with only the club's business in mind, I refer you to the way the club handled two of our greatest players, Alex Young and Alan Ball.

It's football business, not EitC.

Whilst I'll not lower myself to insulting RB, I can't slap him on the back and wish him well either.

He is a self confessed blue and there is no doubt that he has been helped in his career by a whole bunch of people at the club. He has known for quite some time (probably more than a year) that he didn't want to extend his contract but instead of moving on gracefully and ensuring 'his club' got something back for their investment in him, he decided to run his contract down so that the club get nothing or next to nothing.

Whilst that's his prerogative, that is disrespectful to the club and fans so, whilst I won't enter that party myself, he (you) can't argue that others shouldn't be disrespectful to him in return.

The club need to learn from this.

The amount of stick Ross got from Evertonians was nothing short of a disgrace. All I ever saw was a boyhood blue trying his very best. Never shying away from the ball, always trying to make things happen even when he wasn't able to pull it off. When he was able to do this, it was spectacular.

I think Everton fans wanted so much from him. They saw his stature and shooting ability and wanted him to be our version of Steven Gerrard. When he wasn't able to show this, the fans turned on him. Maybe they wanted him to be the Rooney we never got to see. Well he isn't that type of player, he doesn't have the natural aggression that those players have which makes his impact less noticeable in the premier league.

Make no bones about it, Ross is possibly the most talented product of our youth academy, ever. With the exception only of Wayne Rooney. He leaves us with his best years ahead of him and some other club will enjoy the qualities that most evertonians could simply not appreciate

My view is that he has looked at what was on offer from the club -say 150k per week - and thought or been advised 'run the contract down , get a massive signing on fee say 10 mill and still get a minimum 150k per week somewhere else' so he is off. His choice and we have lost much better players and coped with it and we will do so this time.

If he leaves, Ross will be taking his problems along with him. I fear another Jack Rodwell.

What would any of you lot on here do stick around the shambles that is EFC sharing baths and toilets in the crumbling changing rooms at Goodison Park or go to a team fighting for the Championship in a state of the art stadium playing CL football every year? Never mind being an Evertonian it's a No brainer. Getting knocked out in town last year has probably forced Barkley's hand. Last one out turn off the lights, that's current day Everton for you. Everyone wants to leave, Billionaire or no Billionaire Shareholder/Owner.

Good luck Ross, thanks for the memories

I don't know the ins and outs of why Barcley is leaving the Blues but after watching him since he came into the team and waiting for his potential to evaporate into a real and consistant talent I am still, after seven years, waiting for this flower to bloom.

Ross's lack of fight is the part of him that really got to me, lose the ball, then chase after his man for three or four yards then just give up, really and truly riled me, I just could not accept that side to his game and do not understand any fan who does.

I never heard any boos directed at Ross, from The Upper Bullens Stand anywa, plenty of moans and groans, but none of them were as loud as those directed at Wayne Rooney in the recent game versus Swansea, although Wayne was given generous applause when he was substited, mind you he had scored the final goal by then.

He doesn't want to play for us, it's a matter of getting the best deal we can and moving on.

I've thought for a long time that he wants to a follow Stones and Lukaku to bigger clubs he no longer thinks we can be. If you want to shout at anyone, shout at the people who failed to strengthen the squad quickly enough to keep these players interested in staying.

Ross Barkley has the natural ability but for me he just doesn't do the business often enough.
Who knows how he will do at the likes of Chelsea. In terms of better footballers around him that should help him but he will have the pressure all right - every game he plays.
Regards Ross calling off the January move to Chelsea , Kenwright apparently was the mystery caller just after he had his medical , pleading Barkley to stay at Everton.
Kenwright dreams of another "holy trinity" in Rooney , Barkley and Davies , but that just isn't going to work out long term.
Barkley not signing for Chelsea ( because BK called him ) was the reason Moshiri and his relationship going cold , Moshiri was fuming apparently.

Someone also mentioned on here that our new manager would hardly be inspirational in getting Barkley to stay , I would agree with that.

I think Barkley would be mad to sign for anyone in January , if he is looking to get as much money as he can , surely he would be better off signing on a free.

I posted a few months ago that he was defo going to Chelsea and the deal was done, despite his desire to go to Spurs.

My accountant is familiar with Barkley's chef (he cooks 3 nights a week in Ross's house in Formby; the other 4, he stays with his mum in Wavertree).

His chef confirmed all the dealings with other clubs, for want of a better way of putting it... But added that it was indeed as you put forward – his social life here that was basically making his life in Liverpool become untenable. So fucked up this situation has become.... and a shame all-in-all. But that really is it.

Sam has no attacking midfielder, so we will never know.

Don't lambasted Sam for not having that particular tactical option. He simply does not have the personel to do so.

Daniel Levy will sign him for £10m plus add-ons or for free in June if not.

For a club that has nurtured and cared for him, for the fans who adored him, we have been financially and emotionally shafted by Ross.

With respect Dave, your point about John Stones and Lukaku is a redundant one. Do either either of them have any greater affinity to Man City or Man Utd than they had at Everton? No. And you can say the same of the overwhelming majority of Premier League footballers, certainly all overseas imports.

Don't confuse the point I made with the fact Ross is a local boy with a close affinity to the club. The issue for me isn't a question of fidelity. It is more one of ambition and genuine desire to challenge at the sharp end for trophies again.

As recently as 2-3 years ago we gathered together 4 extremely talented young footballers, be they through the academy, from lower or Premier League clubs and from overseas, around whom we could build a genuinely serious team.

Successive custodians and managers at the club failed to enhance the side at key moments and, in the case of Stones and Lukaku, the club's ambitions did not appear to match their own.

Together with other talent coming through the academy, Moshiri's investment and the riches pouring in from TV money, we were extremely well-placed to crack the code.

Can you honestly say we have signed better players to replace those 3 + 1 more to go this month? I would argue 'no'.

I repeat, those 4 players [had] exactly the age, ability, ambition, potential and profile we should seek to recruit and retain more of.

It is a wickedly missed opportunity, IMO.

That hasn't happened and we are now left to speculate on whether that is because of ineptness on the part of the club's contract negotiators, or Ross being a greedy little beggar and is looking for a fat signing-on fee from his new club.

It might serve him well to look at the fate of the last two who pulled this type of contract stunt – ie, Messrs Gosling and Moyes.

With Sigurdsson and Rooney on the books he is probably best moving on. That said he would be foolish to go to Chelsea or Spurs. Won't make it off the bench. Rodwell Mk 2 if that happens.

He never really became a consistent performer after all the early hype and whilst he does possess a lot of skill he will never be the player we all hoped he would be.

It's time for a few others to be traded also as Sam tries to create a squad that has the right attitude and ability to perform on a consistently high level.

That will take a few more signings as he will weed out some of the ''Koeman'' brigade.

It would be a good experience for him and he would be well away from Merseyside.

For a guy who is supposed to be a Blue, he has had us over a barrel and took the piss!

He didn't want to play for us anymore because he had his head turned by ‘a Champions League club' the modern day footballers disease! He should've been honest to the club and told them so and given us the chance to recoup a fair fee for an English footballer of his age and potential!!

I think he is making a big mistake and will get swallowed up and benched by any team needing to maintain very high standards every week. I've watched him from day one and he has improved a fair bit but he is still a long way off being a top top-level footballer.

He lacks the concentration, work rate and intelligence to cut it with the best in the Premier League and Europe!

I think every Evertonian in the ground for our last home game of the season against Watford knew then, when he scored there was very little celebration from Ross, just arms half heartedly raised with no kiss of the badge or clutching of his shirt or sliding on his knees.

Never before have I ever seen Ross not celebrate wildly after scoring a goal for Everton. After the game, I said to my brother, "Ross will be on his way out no matter what we offer him." His body language said as much that Friday night.

Good luck to the guy. We have had players come and go before, it will happen again, but we will still be following Everton and no player is bigger than Everton Football Club.

What we do need to do is ensure we never let a prospect get down to the last year of their contract again. Contracts are nothing nowadays, it just means more money for a selling club, so get a long-term contract nailed down. Gueye and Kenny are a start.

I'm not terrifically happy about the way the club is run either but what would have persuaded these lads to stay?

Regarding the theory of Ross getting away from Merseyside, why didn't he move a bit further away and hire a driver for training etc?

He must spend most of his time pissing his pants laughing that someone is prepared to pay him such an outrageous amount of money. No wonder he's looked useless whenever he's played!!

Flatters to deceive... and even Woy who was pretty useless as England manager, saw that Barkley was a liability.

I won't be shedding tears when he goes and fully expect him to be labouring in Stoke's or Newcastle's midfield within 3 seasons.

Who's next to leave? Anyone with ability to beat a man. Have we got one?

Somebody on here said that Barkley would go to a team who are "mid-table dross" and then included Jeffers and Lescott among his examples who did. So, if Arsenal and Man City are mid table dross then what are they all leaving?

The only thing that does seem apparent is that few if any of us have much idea as to why he wants away.

These guys get well paid, can live where they like, travel in style, and have the pick of the girls at such a young age. What more could a fella want in life and come out of it with enough money and security for life.

Sorry, but get £30 million plus for him and move on. Anyone else ????
Up the Blues!!

In my opinion, it wouldn't make much difference if they charged 㿀 a head to get in across the board and a tenner for OAPs and kids.

Money is secure if you're in the Premier League as long as Sky are there and the world is watching. 𧴰 grand a week is fuck all! I'm sad to say but that's it nowadays.

Not showing the same loyalty to the club that nurtured and helped him since a small child, through career-threatening injuries too. Guilty of treason against the state of Evertonia. In my view, yes.

If he wants to leave for personal reasons, or even footballing reasons, that is acceptable but not to look after the club that grew him by signing a deal that meant we get a proper fee, is treasonous against the state of Everton. Lukaku came to a gentleman's agreement clearly. Why not Ross? Greed of agent? Tail wagging dog? The agent works for the player. Shafted by the diamond from Wavertree indeed.

Creating and scoring goals is the most difficult and therefore expensive element of a team. With Ross's age, nationality, proven ability to create chances in the Premier League. Leaving for £15m to Chelsea. What a shambles.

Up the Toffees.

The 'gangster' in question may be gaoled, we are told, but that seems insufficient to stop him from seeking a fresh start. All very strange.

It's odd that no-one will come out say what it is... there must be a lot more ITK who are keeping very quiet about the real reasons.

I don't think we've had a mysterious one like this since Gary Speed left under very strange circumstances almost 20 years ago. His tragic death years later prevented discussion of the reasons back then, and the long list of possibilities raised at the time eventually faded from the memory without ever being resolved.

If he leaves Liverpool at least Ross will know his mum is safe seeing how the chef is staying with her.

Michael there is no maybe about it.
The situation where he was threatened was 2/3 years ago, still being used as an excuse for him leaving.

My main point, although I never asked you, was do you really think Ross is a great player and will he become one. You obviously know your football and if you think Barkley is capable of becoming a consistently good player, never mind a great one, then that surprises me honestly.

Ross is going so whether we fans like him or not so there is little we can do about it, it is how they leave Everton that leaves a lasting impression, so for me when Ross goes he's gone. When a player like Gary Speed was practically forced out of the club then e goes/ went with my upmost sympathy and regret, and he was always held in the upmost respect by me and a lot of Evertonians. That's life I suppose Jay.

Probably the best outcome for the club at this late stage considering he wants out.

I'm happy that it is over, I am bored to death of talking about him. However , it will remain interesting to see if he can fulfill his undoubted potential. I wanted him to stay , but wish him luck for his future.

In the interest of balancing the squad I'm not sure that the money should be reinvested in another midfielder. I would say get in another quality striker with some pace.

Walcott or Welbeck can give us more threat , and give us that danger we need. They get no game time for Arsenal.

Our younger players then can be given more time to develop over the next season.

amazes me people defending him when all he has tried to do is line his pockets and shaft the club who nurtured him from a boy.

The one thing that niggles at me however is the deep rooted damage that Koeman has done to some of these players while he was in charge. It looks to me players like Gueye, Schneid's, Davies, Lookman and Siggy etc have suffered terrible losses in confidence. Something wasn't right about that mans tenure at the club.

Clearly he doesn't want to play for Everton; so let him go and move on. The club will be here long after he hangs up his boots.

Still undecided on whether he'll kick on like Rooney or end up in the wilderness like Rodwell. One things for sure though - straight into the England team if he signs for either Chelsea or Tottenham.

I am assumimg we knew at the club what was happening, that we were being mugged, and I'm surprised we haven't gone public with it. We've been stitched up good and proper, but that's life as Esther Rantzen so succinctly put it.

Whatever has happened recently he really shouldn't forget that when he was 17 he had a triple leg break which the club helped him through allowing him the chance to flourish as a pro footballer and become a multi millionaire! He's also just received top notch treatment for his hamstring whilst being paid just to lose his boyhood club £20m!!

However you dress this up it's really poor and makes Rooney, Jeffers, Rodwell and Ball seem like angels!

Very disappointed! I'm not a malicious person but hope it goes tits up for him!

The lad gets older and like we all do our priorities and perceptions change. Maybe he thought he was the best of the best and could get untold riches and trophies elsewhere.

I have no doubt that it's true that players and agents from other clubs meet, talk, tap up etc and more than likely this added to Barkleys mindset.

The fact is once we get into the realms of millions and league championships boys dreams and allegiances take a hit.

Barkley made his mind up ages ago. He was going regardless there was never going to be enough money to keep him, we can't compete at the top end. We can't compete with the winning of championships and cups.

When Barkley has been rotated until his head spins off at Chelsea until the end of his career he will no doubt return to his boyhood Club, tell everyone Everton is the love of his life and drive off in his Ferrari.

Lets move on. Bye Ross. Thanks for the 15 million, we could have got nothing.

Stones Lukaku Deulofeu and Barkley , I hoped these 4 would make us great again and their potenal couldn't be argued but for one reason or another either miss management on the pitch or in the boardroom or an arm around the shoulder instead of a kick up the butt we have lost all four of them and replaced them players will half the ability or in lukaku's case not replaced at all

This miss management of letting players leave or as with Ross letting his contract run down is a massive disappointment we need to learn from

I would also add that some people on here need to be careful what they wish for as all four of these players have been moaned at and booed more than any I've seen in a blue top , now they've left and look what we're left with

Good luck to Ross. Will be interesting to hear his thoughts on leaving Everton if ever he talks.

The most disappointing aspect is that he appears to have almost gone out of his way to damage the club.

Can't say I'm that arsed though really. Hated watching him play.

As and when he returns here I hope this fake gets what's coming. His commitment as a so-called True-Blue was even less than his commitment to a meaningful tackle, if that's possible.

World class???? He couldn't even get in the England squad let alone team! I will add that Rom could in time be a world class player, but currently he has scored the same amount of goals as our has been, and I bet if you look at it less match effecting ones. But to call Ross world class? You are off your bean lad

In fairness to the player, what he goes on to achieve in the future is not set, but currently he is a better than average prem midfielder recovering from a long term injury.

Moving to Chelsea will be a gamble on his part but not much of one. He may well be nothing more than a bit part player there, he may sink without trace but he has the opportunity to learn from a top class manager, has a chance of playing Champions League football and a chance of medals not to mention a salary topping £100k per week. We might have matched the salary but can offer little else other than mid-table football with a mediocre squad and a set of fans all too ready to look for scapegoats. Who can blame him for seeking pastures new?

That may be the case, except that Barkley himself said that he pulled out of the medical. Chelsea were aware of the injury at the time - they weren't going into a medical blind, thinking he was fit, they'd clearly already taken into account his hamstring problem. Chelsea were happy to pay £35m for him at the time, as seen. At some point someone - be it Chelsea, Barkley or Barkley's agent - decided to leave it, knowing that the next four months were going to be all about getting Ross back to full fitness. No brainer for Chelsea/Ross - let Everton sort all that out, come in with a much lower bid in January. The only risk for Chelsea was Spurs coming in.

But, if anything, it would have been Ross reassuring Chelsea that he'd sign in January rather than the other way round.

Bakayoko, Fabregas, Kante, Drinkwater in the deeper roles.

All the best Ross.

I think you and I Stan have very similar thoughts about the mindset that permeates the corridors of Goodison Park.

Maybe, eventually, with time it will shift with Moshiri at the helm, but nearly 2 years into his reign there really doesn't seem to be much of a change as to how the club operates. The most talented players either want out or are sold to fund incoming transfers.

There appears to be a perception both within and outside the club that - yeah! - decent enough club, 'n all that, but the potential to be a real contender again?

Phtt! Yer 'avin a larf...

And that leads me on to you question, Dave.

Let's turn the clock back to Roberto Martinez's 1st season (2013-14), which Stan also references, correctly recalling some of the truly scintillating football we played with the 4 young guns mentioned.

John Stones was 19
Gerard Deulofeu also 19
Ross Barkley 20
Romelo Lukaku also 20

Now because how things panned out in Martinez's next 2 seasons, that 1st season tends to get air brushed out of recent history. Some go as far to say the fall off under Martinez started at the end of that season.

The data shows that is absolute bollocks. Yes, Everton stumbled at the death with losses to Palace, Southampton and City. Ironically, given the core subject under discussion, Ross scored an absolute beauty in that City game. Indeed, it won the club's goal of the season award. But also, rather bizarrely, many a blue (I wasn't among them!) actually WELCOMED that defeat to City as it potentially denied the pinkies the chance to win the title.

What was I saying about the mindset that permeates Everton FC...?

Any way, back to that 1st season under Martinez. Check out these numbers. In the final 12 games of that season, our record read:

P 12 W 9 D 0 L 3 F 24 A 12 Pts 27

Included in that run were 3-0 and 2-0 THRASHINGS of Arsenal and United, respectively. That kind of return, projected over a season, is title challenging form.

Now add to that quartet of young 'uns the following more senior players, but not yet 'aged' players, who were in their prime: Howard, Coleman, Jags, Distin, Baines, Pienaar, Osman, plus the likes of James McCarthy (just 23) and Bryan Oviedo (also 23) , it was more than merely a reasonable, workman-like team. It was a team on the cusp of really, but REALLY challenging for trophies.

Indeed, I recall Lukaku saying in an early interview that season how he told Jags the quality of players at Everton was as good as at Chelsea. Jags response? He laughed at him. That 'Everton mindset' again, from the club captain, no less.

We ended that season comfortably in 5th (could have been 4th!), well clear of both Spurs and United with a record points haul in the PL era, the 6th most potent attack and the 3rd best defensive record.

There was genuine excitement and anticipation as to what this team could achieve under Martinez.

But, this being Everton, Martinez seemingly stopped doing what he had got so right in his first season. Yes, Lukaku was recruited full-time, but Gerard returned to Spain in his 2nd season, only returning in Roberto's final season.

Recruitment was subsequently poor. The football poorer. Martinez's pressers exposed a man living in a parallel universe nobody else inhabited.

Those players in their prime aged, their abilities waned, but rather than be replaced, they were given contract extensions. The four young guns also drifted away.

I wanted to paint that picture first Dave before answering your specific questions:
1) do I think Ross is a great player and will he become one?
2) do I think he is capable of becoming a consistently good player?

To reference Martinez again, Ross was not helped when - still very young - Roberto made one of his super-hyperbole statements, claiming Ross WAS (not could be, or has the potential to be) but WAS THE best footballer England has ever produced.

That said, Ross played his best football under Martinez and consistently so. The age he and the other young guns were, of course he had poor moments within games, or bad games, but he and the other 3 had REAL ability and offered much more to the team than pretty much anyone in our current squad, I believe.

Even under Koeman, Ross was still one of the better players - on his day, I admit. Now for me, Koeman made some legitimate comments about Ross, his maturity and his need to step up to the plate more. But Koeman (and by association the club) did not play a smart game with Ross, given the proximity of the termination of his contract.

So in conclusion Dave, I believed Ross had the potential to be a truly great player. His development and progress to greatness has definitely stalled and I feel now he won't achieve true 'greatness'. He is still a very, VERY good footballer. The type of footballer I would wish to recruit and retain at Everton. In his case, it is not to be.

I also consider Ross over his career at Everton has performed more consistently than many credit him with.

Taken overall, we had 4 young and exceptional talents on our books who, with the right guidance, the necessary additions to other areas of the team, at the right time, could have formed the spine of an exceptional team for a decade.

And we blew it.

To repeat what I said earlier, it is a wickedly missed opportunity, IMO.

Like so many have mentioned, he has promised potential, for how long now?

If he does sign for Chelsea, again like many have said he will find his chances extremely limited; not only will he be found out; but I expect if he does play; and scores a goal, he will kiss the badge; says it all really.

Normally I would wish him all the best; but the way he has treated Everton recently excludes him from that send off.

Ross was probably set on leaving already, but as a club we've pretty much stated now that we're only bothered with Premier League survival rather than actually winning anything.

Anybody can put in the effort, only a few have that little bit special that gets you up off your seat.

He's never pushed on as he might have but still scored or assisted around 30 goals in the Premier League over last two seasons with us.

I gave up with the sour grapes over players after Gary Speed left, so this one won't be too hard to take. The whole thing about player loyalty went out with the Ark – supporters would do themselves a favour by forgetting about that notion these days (I mean that sincerely).

Yeah, we're losing some money on Ross, but it isn't my money so why should I care? We're paying 㿇m for Tosun which could be brilliant or terrible business, do I care? No, again, it's not my money. EFC is a business like any other, and players are traded here, there & everywhere. None of it affects me.

I wish Ross luck anyway – for me the issues are deeper than football & money, though I have no real backing for this stance, I do feel he needs to get out of Liverpool.

The problem is, the 'special' players also put in the effort these days. For me, the biggest problem we have is lack of effort from everyone on the pitch.

Think about the likes of Kane, Silva, Hazard - they are constantly on the move, looking for the ball and ready for it.

Ross has maybe had 5 games with that attitude in all the time he's been here.

Epitomised, for me, in one player already at Chelsea... Willian

Probably the best outcome and a reasonable amount of cash under the circumstances.

But, sorry, the guy is either really as thick as some of us already thought (including me) or he really does not have any football ambitions. No way is he anymore than a benchwarmer there. Hopefully someone is talking about Batshuayi coming the opposite way.

Ross does lack work rate, I think we can all agree on that.

It's true that four years ago we had a truly exciting team with some young talents poised for greatness and an excellent blend with experienced (but not yet old) Premier League players. Since that excellent first season under Martinez it has been truly downhill, our recruitment that Summer just didn't quite cut it.

Atsu was a poor replacement for Deulofeu, Besic was signed off the back of one good world cup game, Eto'o seemed to upset the dressing room balance and we didn't buy the dominant centre-back to replace Distin who was beginning to age. If only we'd had Moshiri's money then, we would have had a much stronger foundation to build upon.

Personally, I feel that we have a ready-made replacement for his creativity in the U23s with Liam Walsh but he needs to get into the gym, bulk up (a la Sterling) and stay injury free. 2018 will be a big year for this kid; I would love him to get a chance in the first team.

He's about to sign for the current champions!

As for the rest of the comments, they remain conjecture. He hasn't spoken about his reasons for wanting to leave. Maybe one day he will. It's possible he just doesn't think we're that ambitious – a view many of us hold.

At the end of the day, our club will carry on... it's Ross whose career is at stake. Good luck to him.

Doesn't sound like Conte asked for Ross. Chelsea making a quick double-your-money signing. Don't blame them really and I'm surprised more clubs aren't in for him for the price.

Evertonians make great fans but seldom do anything good for the club pitchside.

Ian Rush, Michael Owen, Lallana, McManaman, Fowler and Carragher all turned out to be the worst kind of blue. Barkley, though, can still surpass them for treachery if he does a Steve McMahon and returns to the city a few years from now and joins that mob in red.

Evertonians make great fans but seldom do anything good for the club pitchside.

Ian Rush, Michael Owen, Lallana, McManaman, Fowler and Carragher all turned out to be the worst kind of blue. Barkley, though, can still surpass them for treachery if he does a Steve McMahon and returns to the city a few years from now and joins that mob in red.

Evertonians make great fans but seldom do anything good for the club pitchside.

Ian Rush, Michael Owen, Lallana, McManaman, Fowler and Carragher all turned out to be the worst kind of blue. Barkley, though, can still surpass them for treachery if he does a Steve McMahon and returns to the city a few years from now and joins that mob in red.

We'd also enjoyed the benefit of two players for free which now had cost us £30m, the best part of BBS's budget.

I think the pre seasons affected the players too, before 14/15 we didn't really have one and didn't win a game whereas in 13/14 we'd enjoyed a morale boosting USA trip, everyone returned on a high and I think that was reflected in our play especially prior to Christmas...

The Stoke & Fulham games stand out for me and we were only really properly beaten once before new year, the 3-1 at City... I've tried to forget the stupid 1-0 loss to Sunderland.

We were definitely poorer after new year performance wise although results taken on face value reflect a different story. I remember feeling uneasy during home games against Villa, WHU & Cardiff plus away at Fulham where we needed an o:g to get back in it and the same to win at Sunderland.

I don't think our 5th place was so comfortable as some would make out either as we were only 3pts ahead of Spurs and with 5 to go threw away 4th from being 2pts ahead of Arsenal to ending up 7 pts behind them.

I do believe the rot had started to set in even then. 14/15 was horrendous to the point where we were only 2 pts better off then at the same stage as when Allardyce took over.

The managers have been backed financially as, including Tosun we've spent nearly 380m since Moyes left... More than enough to replace Stones, Lukaku, Deulofeu and Barkley twice over.

Regarding Lukaku, he was always going to go, IMO, no matter how we performed so we will have to disagree on that one, same with Stones once Chelsea had turned his head and money started talking, City'smoney was the loudest.

Delboy, sadly he hasn't really progressed, or it looks that way, whatever the reason Ross has gone for I haven't got a clue, so will net hazard a guess.

Jay for one reason or another you seem to be putting the blame on other people for Barkley not realising his undoubted potential, how about Ross himself, didn't he realise how good he could / can become with more work and effort on and off the pitch, he never plays very good two games on the run, has great spells and very poor spells in a single game, consistently.

I know every person is different so maybe it is not a good argument, but Alan Ball and Kevin Keegan were not born with natural skill but worked at it continually to become the great players they were,closer to home Stevie McMahon went to Bellfield every day, hail, rain or what ever the weather, wasn't really getting noticed at sixteen or seventeen but was determined to play for Everton wouldn't let nothing stop him, it is about wanting and fighting to get where you want to be.

Give Ross his due he came back from an injury that might have stopped a lot of players, so he did have some fight in him, so what has stopped his progress since, it looks like something has stopped him, maybe it is Ross himself.

Personally, I don't blame the lad one little bit. I was absolutely amazed to hear booing when he got the ball and never went past three players; "Terrrrnnn Rosssss"

I made my feelings known about these 'supporters' at the time.

We can all flog our blue-faced opinions on this all afternoon, but Ross will still leave.

Given the length of contract he has left, and the injury he's had (have you SEEN the scar!?) it might be that we're lucky to get anything for him at all at this point in time.

*dons tin helmet*

"Give me 5 min of skill over 85 min of effort every day.
Anybody can put in the effort, only a few have that little bit special that gets you up off your seat."

I'll call that the Georgi Kinkladze School of Thought (Honorary Graduate G.Deulofeu) and while it looks great on MotD highlights it is always a disaster from any other viewpoint of genuine football success.

How about 90+ minutes of effort as an absolute minimum with however many minutes of skill you can throw in in top of that? Is that too much expectation once a week for the salaries these guys get?

There is a very good reason Messi and Ronaldo are better than everyone else; it is because they work harder than anyone else and don't hide, like every other genuinely great player. Wayne Rooney also had/has this same ethic. It's why we had him less than two years before he was eagerly snapped up and why teams seem to be happy to let Barkley run his contract down, quite possibly purely for speculative resale value

This particular penny never seems to have dropped with the likes of Barkley and Deulofeu, whatever few and far in-between moments they have given us which we could probably all point out.

"for one reason or another you seem to be putting the blame on other people for Barkley not realising his undoubted potential, how about Ross himself, didn't he realise how good he could / can become with more work and effort on and off the pitch, he never plays very good two games on the run, has great spells and very poor spells in a single game, consistently."

No Dave. I think you have completely misunderstood the gist of my posts in this thread.

Firstly, on Ross himself, I agree with you. Naturally gifted footballer that he is, he seemingly lacks the fire in the belly, the raw hunger to succeed, as possessed by the players you mention. It is a vital ingredient to achieve true greatness.

So no. I am not excusing Ross for failing to achieve more in his career and passing the buck on to others.

My posts clearly refer more to the malaise and mindset as I see it that pervades Everton FC, with particular reference to 4 extremely talented youngsters we gathered in one place 4 years ago.

Heaven knows TW is full of posts and posters bewailing the appointment of Allardyce and the football being played under him. Yet some of those very same posters vehemently criticised all or some of those 4 young guns, ironically calling for 'more effort' from them rather than revel in the football skills they brought to the table.

Those 4 lads represented the nucleus of a potentially very good team we could have become under the right management, schooling, investment and recruitment.

And we blew it.

Such a shame. Ross, his history, and his home meant a lot to me and for many others. The 'thick Ross' narrative is boring, insulting, and gratuitous. But he has in my view made a massive mistake here. Think Drinkwater, Ross. He will get more time than you.

Alas, I see Ross in a few years from now with persistent injuries in a basement Premier League team regretting the day he met Koeman for the first time and wishing that he had never left the club he still supports.

I would wish him luck but the "U" turn in the summer has left a bitter taste in my mouth. Some people blame BK for that. I'm not sure. It sounds manufactured between Chelsea and his agent to me.

That the club was badly run, hardly anyone will argue against and yet one of the culprits is defended and admired by many, but that is another debate.

Hope you enjoy the game tonight Jay, all those for and against Barkley will leave that argument alone for now, if we win tonight. Gueye, Keane and Niasse are not in the squad.

These are just off the top of my head in no particular order. Rodwell, Deulofeu, Jeffers, Anichebe, Vaughan, Ebrell, Grant, Garbutt, Browning, Cadamateri, Pennington, Galloway, probably Davies and I'm sure there are plenty of others. All these players had "potential" but they all failed to live up to it. Especially Rodwell, Deulofeu and Jeffers who had opportunities at richer clubs and still flopped. The only young player Everton have produced in the last 30 years who actually realised his potential is Rooney.

I'm tired of hearing about this or that youngster bubbling under with bags of potential playing in Everton's first team. I want to see players who have realised their potential playing for Everton's first team. Personally I doubt Barkley will make much impact at Chelsea at all. He'll be a little fish in a pond full of great whites. The pressure to perform game after game will tell on him just like it did on Rodwell and Jeffers and he'll be an expensive bench warmer before they move him on in a season or two.

I would also point out that to allow young players to come through means not buying older players in their positions. So buying Tosun is blocking the development of Calvert-Lewin. We can't have it both ways. If we want success we have to buy players who are ready to play regardless of what youngsters we may have. There isn't any spiky haired scouse Pele's that are going to save Everton's bacon stewing in the U23s. If we want success we have to buy it just like the top six do.

Yeah. I'm not hung up on the specifics as to why Ross is leaving. You can argue that until the gangsters' molls come home...

My key point in this thread is with the right investment in the right players at the right time, under the tutelage of the right manager, the likes of Stones and Lukaku could have been excited by the 'project' and the direction the club was going and been encouraged to stay and commit more years to the club.

And don't forget, both still had years rather than months on their contract like Ross, so the club chose to sell them rather than insist they respect their contracts, as other clubs have done with star players.

Look at the state of the squad 'then' - a mere 4 years ago - to the state of the squad 'now'. Those senior players in their prime are now aged and rapidly on the wane. The younger players are not of the same caliber as that 'Fab Four'.

The squad 'then' just needed tweaking and upgraded when necessary. To come close to replicating that scenario 'now', IMO our starting position is far more distant then it was 'then'.

For me the issue here is not the loyalty, desire or application of the individual players, but the entrenched mindset at the club fossilised in past glories, rather than striving to write new ones.

And you really do know how to depress a guy with your snippet about Lookman!

Are you or Tony going the game tonight, or don't you like to soil your soul by attending Mordor...? A bet on the pinkies by you wouldn't go amiss!

Either way, here's hoping!

Ross is a diamond. But he can't be put into a crown until you polish him up and have him consistently sparkling. The thing is, his cut may be wrong and you'll never get that brilliance out of him. It would be bittersweet if someone was able to get him shining like all of us believed he could but I don't foresee that happening.

I'm largely just disappointed with Ross... It definitely feels as if he has done the club wrong. In general, I try not to get too bothered by these things because it is a business from all sides. The players careers don't last forever and one injury can end it all so I don't fault them leaving when someone comes with the offer to double or treble their already ridiculous wages or gives them the chance to play when they've been stuck on the bench. But I think one can still make those moves with class and grace so everyone can have positive feelings about it. Everything about Ross' protracted exit has felt quite shady and I think a lot of the positive will he had built up with Evertonians has been depleted by now. So long and thanks for all the fish Ross.

Well Jay we will never know now if the four you mention plus good additions would have made us into a trophy winning squad, not continuing the debate but I am honestly more upset at Liam Walsh going to Bristol City, really really rated this lad, don't know the ins and out of this deal but it doesn't look like Everton (again) have done us any favours.

Tony has gone to the game with his sons Sonny and Cameron and my great grandson Alfie, I couldn't get a brief, tried to rob one of theirs, but they were too wise to me, don't like the look of the team but hope springs eternal, 2-1 to the Blues.

I knew you'd be as gutted as I was, given our exchanges on the lad in the past and how highly we both rated him.

I reckon he is someone who could break back into a PL side down the line.

Here's hoping for tonight, as you say.

COYB!!!!