Second Everton offer for Doucouré knocked back

Silva told us last week he wanted five more if Gueye left, he's got two of them in Gbamin and Kean and he told us he wanted a winger, centre-back and right-back. We also know that we want to shift McCarthy, Besic, probably Schneiderlin and Baningime, at least on loan. Therefore bidding £40M for this player, who isn't for sale, doesn't make sense on any level. If he's that good, and we wanted him all along, why did we buy all of the other three?

Whilst its great making new signings, this one makes me really worry about the transfer policy, and that we are just throwing money around in a haphazard way after all. I worry even more when Silva talks about having a 'small group' or whatever phrase he used. Your problem is having too many players, not too few. If you're a decent coach, you should be able to take the likes of McCarthy, Besic, Baningime and Davies and turn them into the players you want.

We still have up to ten players to sell, a big hole in the squad at centre-back and more central midfielders than we could possibly give any game time to and we're wasting time and energy bidding for a player who is not for sale, not needed and extremely expensive.

I haven't seen enough of the guy to comment on his ability, but position wise we seem well stocked in this area.

Therefore Doucoure takes the first choice defensive midfield role.

Perhaps we could offer the ineffectual Tom Davies as a sweetener.

I know. His "small squad" argument is funny considering we have still 30 plus in the first team. I guess "small squad" is code for "small number of players I actually rate." But nonetheless, would like to see us cut some deadwood. Worryingly there hasn't even been a hint of a whisper about Niasse leaving. Seems like that joker will be here for the duration.

Sorry but I have to totally disagree with you. Doucoure is a quality player and yes, plays in midfield. The only two midfielders we have bought really (as Gomes was here last season) are Gbamin and Delph.

Now we all know that Delph will not play every game all season, for one he will get injured at some point. Gbamin can also play centre-half and I'm sure that is one of the main reasons Silva bought him, not just to play as a defensive midfielder. So, if that happens, we still only have Gomes and Delph.

I think Doucoure will play more and Delph on the bench as backup. You need more cover these days with the amount of games and a good bench also.

I could understand Doucoure more if there was no Sigurdsson. That is two spots for Gomes, Delph and Davies. If so, then yes, we're a bit light, especially with the Delph injury.

So is Sigurdsson on his way out and we're about to get Zaha and go 4-3-3?

And £40m to £50m for this guy, Zouma and Zaha, what's this costing us? Is Usmanov going all-in? Or is Moshiri betting the mortgage on cracking the top 4 this season?

If there was ever a season to double down and go for broke on 4th, then I would agree this is it. Man Utd look a mess without strong leadership or a coherent squad, Chelsea have a transfer ban and a rookie manager, Arsenal are plagued by old deficiencies, and even Spurs are cracking under some internal strain. You could even throw Liverpool into the mix by pointing out they are far from perfect and have not signed anyone of note. Only Man City look infallible.

So, why oh why are we not addressing the centre-back issue? Why the fixation on Doucoure with multiple bids?

In fact I actually felt he was hard done by when he got dropped towards the end of last season. He had been one of our better players in the previous few games.

I admit, he would not currently start in a team with top 4 ambitions.

But, As an academy graduate, we can assume he is on a relatively low salary and happy to be a bit part player. He will not let us down when called upon. It would be difficult to find anyone of his quality, on his lower wages that would also accept so few minutes.

Much like Baines, he isn’t good enough to start but he is more valuable to keep as it would cost us more to replace.

There’s a queue of at least 10 players that should be shown the door permanently before him.

We certainly looked deficient in CM last season and also lacked goals from that position which Doucoure can help with.

It is a squad game these days and players understand they will not get 90 minutes every game.

What is there not to like about the quality of players we are bringing in compared to what we have.

Especially after getting Delph, who unfortunately, like Captain Lawrence Oates, may be 'out for some time' in addition to Gbamin, and what's looking also likely Sid Ibe ( RB, but he can also play in midfield according to Wiki) so all in all doesn't make a lot of sense.

I have no doubt he is a decent player, but do we really need him? I would rather we concentrate, while the clock is ticking (increasingly louder) on either Zah or a very similar type player, and nab Zouma in January!

The CB issue is another conundrum. Silva said very specifically the other day that he needed another one, because Holgate ain't it and Gibson isn't ready, and he didn't even mention Gbamin in that conversation.

It's possible all will become clear in the next 48 hours, or we may still be scratching our heads. But there's not a doubt in my mind that this is all part of a plan that is going to take more than one transfer window to execute. I believe we'll all look back a year from now and say, "Oh, okay, THAT'S what they were doing."

But in the meantime, there's no figuring the traffic jam that buying Doucoure would create in midfield.

Zaha had his heart set on the Gooners but they didn't value him at that high a price and obviously believe Pepe is a better acquisition.

The thing is Zaha's head has been turned and he may not want to stay anyway as could happen with Doucoure at Watford.

This of course contradicts myself. But, I'm not going to blindly sit here and cheer for Doucoure when there's a Zouma sized hole in defence. I'm going to ask what's going on.

Seems a bit rushed at the end of the window but I would assume a lot of these deals have been weeks or months in the making. Just waiting for one big move to start the financial merry-go-round.

Like, surely they wouldn't have let Kenny go without knowing they had a guaranteed back up to come in? Now the tabloids are reporting we're getting a right-back on loan for a season. Win-win, as Marco gets a good look at how he adjusts to the premiership while also keeping one eye on how Kenny progresses with what we assume will be regular game time in Germany. At the end of the season we will know if Kenny can cut it or not.

My fear is that their first choice for a particular position has now let them down and they are frantically trying to weigh up the alternatives. Is it better to take an expensive punt on someone who isn't first choice? Or is it better to wait until a candidate becomes available?

Is the dross we have in reserve capable of filling the hole in the meantime while we wait for the star (who will move us to the next level) to become available?

Last point of note. 12 months is a long time in football and their are no certainties. We could be bemoaning the lack of a centre-back when the window shuts, claiming it has ruled us out of any chance of top 6, then bam, Gibson kicks into gear and solves the problem. (For the record, I don't think he will.)

I think similar happened Spurs. They were forced to play Gareth Bale due to a long-term injury to Modric (?). Likewise with having no option but to play Kane.

Pickford
Coleman Keane Mina Digne
Gomes Gbamin Doucoure
Richarlison Kean Zaha

That's a very strong, dynamic team. It's possible Sigurdsson could play the Gomes role or maybe even one of the forward roles if you're expecting a low block and no space in behind.

We still need a new centre-back, unless Silva has a lot of faith in Mason Holgate and/or Lewis Gibson.

Thank god for the experts on here!!!

Watford? I've a feeling their brass just literally hates the fuck out of us. I don't blame them, quite honestly.

What value does this move create? Especially when we have other areas of the pitch that need addressing.

I hope this doesn't come off. I don't see us helping us enough to justify the cost. And I just can't see the point of bringing in Doucoure.

It looks very much to me, that it is business as usual for Sigurdsson. And I fully expect him to line up in the #10 role against Palace and against the Snake Shakers a week later.

As a direct response to Marc (9), we really have bought three midfielders already and have 8-10 players for 2-3 positions already. We’re not in Europe, so actually have very few games relatively (no midweek games until December except for the Carabao cup) and it is Silva himself who said he wants a centre-back, right-back and winger (who he specified be left-footed).

Talking generally again, my worry is that Silva and Brands don’t think they have the ability to coach young players to develop attributes and abilities that they want. Our promising young English players seem to be being systematically dumped instead of developed. We’re going to need some homegrown quality players at some point, and our policy this summer seems to be to get rid of them, in contrast to what we’d been told previously.

None of this, by the way, is any reflection on Doucoure, who is a good player in his own right, it’s just that the issues I’ve mentioned above outweigh the simplicity of him being decent.

Wilfried Zaha transfer: Crystal Palace winger expects to join Everton for £65m before window closes

It's called negotiation. I'm glad Brands is doing it and not some on here.

A lot will happen between now and the deadline. I'll wait until then before judging our window.

Never did see that, but it seems like a one-off rather than a budding tradition.

Not to mention they probably have their sights set on a top 6 finish themselves and selling their current best player to one of their main competitors will only strengthen us and weaken them.

There's still an outside chance but I seriously doubt it will happen.

We poached their manager. If it happened to us, we'd harbor resentment.

I understand their hatred. It doesn't bother me in the least, but I get why they think the way they do. And Silva did, indeed, give up at Watford. He wanted the move and started to put in about 50% effort after he didn't get it. That's conjecture, but it seemed that way to me.

Watford only sacked him after a crap run of games.

Either way, that's water under the bridge, and I take your point.

The real point and reality is there is bad blood. So I don't see this one coming off. And I can't understand why we'd want him to be honest. Why sign Delph? Go get a CB or a back up RB. Sign Zaha. This transaction doesn't make any sense to me.

IBWT

Thanks so much for providing me with that mental image.

My brain will now require pressure-washing before I can go back to work this morning.

DK, you are a very naughty boy! BTW if that's what you thought, why did you click the link to see said well endowed fans waving their "snakes"?

Sigurdsson, Gomes and latterly Gana all have their special skills but are ultimately not as rounded as this fella or Gbamin. They are applicable for all types of games.

Gomes fades in games and not just because of his fitness, he also is suspect when the ball goes beyond him, Sigurdsson is tactically inflexible, it's playing him at No 10 or bust. Gana offered little when we needed to break down poorer teams.

I can see we are taking a chance this season, and both strength and numbers will be needed. I still have many reservations about Silva but I applaud the strategy of as a club we are going for it.

We have nothing to lose and we should play that way. I guess should be blow up or failed spectacularly we now have several assets to sell on and balance out through player trading.

I was just thinking the exact same thing this morning.

If the Zaha deal comes off, and a few players are added on top of it, there's going to be a ton of pressure on Marco.

I think fans would be understanding of growing pains, but by January, the baying mob will want results.

And I won't blame them a bit.

I'm giving Marco three years no matter what. But if we make these signings and he doesn't win? It could start to get ugly.

But, glass half full, it won't! We're gonna win the league! ;0)

Sorry about this but I've seen it (and corrected it) so many times on this thread... I'm curious about your insistence on misspelling his name as 'Dacoure'. Does that not look wrong to you?

It's Doucouré. Easy to remember as both vowel parts are the same. (A bit like Deulofeu.)

We rarely agree any more! This is a lot of money to spend for "tactical flexibility."

I'd prefer a CB! Can't agree with this acquisition, should it come off. There's other, glaring, and pressing needs. Tom Davies is more flexible than he's given credit for.

On the surface, this feels like a decision made by Ed Woodward!

DK - I'm sure everyone believes you!

What you have posted makes sense.

I think it's safe to say Brands knows what he's doing.

IBWT, no doubt about it.

And I hear your depth argument. But we're not in Europe.

I'll second guess this one. But I will trust Brands, and be ok with it.

As if me being ok with it actually matters.

I have to work. This transfer stuff has me at zero productivity!

Cheers.

Maybe the odd journo is a bit worried about the business we've done and the rumoured business we're planning so they're attempting to stir shit?

Pickford
Coleman Keane Mina Digne
Gomes Gbamin
Zaha Siggy Richie
Kean

Subs: Lossl, Sidibe, Zouma/Surprise, Delph, Bernard, Walcott, DCL

Davies, Schneiderlin, Baines, Gibson, Tosun, etc. going to need to graft to get anywhere near the squad.

Shit man this is exciting.

Is being a RS fan today?

Prob not.

And that is how I deal with them and when they go 6 times I tell them that the PL is the aim and the Euro thing is just for money now.

Ooo that won't have that but as the best league in the world, of course to win PL title over 38 games is where the prestige lies.

Oh bollocks, we won the wrong one they think when honest. And Citeh know that.

So that should be our focus.

Good player but do we still need him?

I think we missed out by not getting Billing (Bargain) and the Brazilian who's gone to Russia, who's Zaha quality at a cheaper price.

I'm sure Watford will be making acquisitions of tapping up against us so they can maximise the fee.

Any chance of a job like that?

I, for one, have no complaints about the results of this window so far and am prepared to wait to see what Thursday brings, before passing any further judgement.

So far so good folks - let's just watch this space for another 48 hours.

McCarthy, Scheiderlin, Besic are firmly out of the picture and we are best rid of them. We have lost Gana and added Gbamin & Delf.

That's one more body added to the very small group of central players that Silva was generally prepared to select from (Gana & Gomes). I'm not sure he's too sold on Tom Davies in there either or he wouldn't be interested in all these players.

For absolutely years we've been undersized, lacked legs, aggression and quality of passing in there. So I'm all for trying to get him. Quite why we've left it this late I don't know although there has to be a reason as all kinds of cash seems to have appeared.

As others have noted though, centre back needs boxing and is probably where attention and cash should be focused at this point in time of the window, as we are going to be bedding in a virtually new week to week central defensive partnership. We need some options and pace in there.

He is a Yaya Toure type player and we don't have a midfielder in our squad who has his energy power pace and athleticism and along with Siggy he is the only real goal threat also.

If you look at our squad we have two players for every position so you would expect for 3 midfield roles we would want 6 players also as last season when Siggy was out of form we had no other option there.

As someone else mentioned this signing would give us tactical flexibility. For example if we were away at City Silva might want to play a compact midfield 3 of Gbamin Delph and Doucoure where as against Burnley at home he could be more adventurous and have Gomes in a quarterback role with Sigggy and Doucoure.

If you look individually at the 6 midfielders each has different traits;
Davies-youth energy and can control tempo
Gomes-vision and technician of the side
Delph-leadership, experience, winner and balance [left)
Gbamin-defensively strong, organiser and game reader
Siggy-goal machine, tactically clever and versatile
Doucoure-power pace and ability to break lines

I think Doucoure would be a really good and important acquisition though again in terms of the model of what Brands said he wanted it would be similar to Zaha in that it's a premium for a ready made player.

Gylfi as a false 9 with Rich and Zaha running the channels, Kean off the bench and Dacoure, Gbamin and Gomes in midfield?

Brands may also not consider him worth £30m.

For those who are more worried about the centre back situation as being more necessary I have a theory that both these are linked.

So far we have budgeted for all the signings made and we had funds for a CB and RW. Originally we had 30 mill or so earmarked forZouma who we believed would sign.

Lampard wants him to stay and I believe Zouma doesn't want to leave if he's first choice.As he pointed out this season he wants to play to secure his euros place. I think we have only agreed a loan for him as Lampard can't give him guarantees this season but rates him and knows Luiz may need replacing next year.

Even if I'm wrong there is talk of a loan with Timori so either way the funds allocated for the CB are available and so the next piece became Doucoure

That player won't be Timori. Ok he might be a little ahead of Gibson and Feeney by having a season at Derby, but how much further on is he really? And whilst I do rate Mina, with his injury record do we really trust Timori to come in and play a lot of games? Timori only makes sense as 4th choice. We still need a 3rd choice (depending on where we see Mina in the pecking order).

As for your point on the midfielders above. You make an excellent point regards how the players are different and Silva might play different players, but ultimately he's going to pick Sigurdsson most games and so that leaves one spot alongside Gbamin for Gomes, Delph and Doucouré, So that's a very expensive player who might not even make the bench. Such a player wouyld not be happy and this leads to decimation of the good dressing room atmosphere. Doesn't matter if you have quality, look at Man City, you need to keep the squad small enough that few big name players are failing to make the squad.

I think too much is being made of Rudiger because he is only going to be missing for 3 months maximum and Christeansen is his natural replacement regardless.

I wouldn't be as confident as you that he definitely starts as I think he is not viewed at Chelsea in the same way as we do and had it not for the aforementioned injury and transfer ban then I believe he would definitely be let go. I know that many Chelsea fans don't think he's good enough on the ball for them and his preseason form won't have enhanced their view. Don't forget he was fifth choice last season and rightly so on his previous two seasons.

It all depends on who Lampard prefers between the Dane and Zouma...if the answer isn't Kurt then he will probably force the move. The Timori link is one that just isn't going away so if we can't get Kurt perhaps he is the answer but like you I feel that Silva wants Zouma and his quotes imply that he is quietly confident of getting him.

With regards to our midfield I would say it would mostly be rotating 3 from 4 between Gbamin Gomes Siggy and Doucoure and the one for me to most likely start would be the Watford man as he is comfortable in a 2 or 3. I would guess he would play 3 midfielders and have 2 on the bench like last season with Davies missing out.

I accept all of what I have said is merely gut feeling and has no real credence.

As with most posters, I would be happy to see Zouma return on a permanent basis. It's certainly going to be an exciting final few hours. Here's hoping we get everyone Silva would like.

Paul @92, if you can't see the immense job done by Brands already, I think you have a problem.

Don’t get me wrong I think Siggy is a great player. He could feasibly play a deeper role instead of Gomes or even take one of the wide forward positions against a sitting defence. I know we’ve not seen this in pre-season but possibly due to lack of options.

I don’t think Silva will swerve buying a plater he wants just to accommodate Sigurdsson. He wants options and flexibility.

I’d feel much more confident about us defensively if we had Doucore in the middle alongside Gbamin.

I also wouldn’t rule out a Tomori loan. It’s a cheap way of offering pace to our defense till we can hopefully buy Zouma in January. Could even be a 6 month loan with the understanding that Zouma will stay to cover Rudigers injury and in the meantime we give Tomori some PL experience. Lampard rates Tomori quite highly so that could work for everyone in the long term.

Silva himself mentioned at the weekend we needed central midfielder. I agree this guy’s a powerhouse and we have nobody like him and to me massive upgrade on Gueye (who I rated high). To say this is a Silva signing is rubbish (as too are those who say Zaha a Moshiri signing) - those days are gone - Brands, Silva, coaches and staff decide on players together. If Brands doesn’t rate this guy or see where he fits we don’t bid for him, simple.

If we sign Doucouré I expect he will be the starting player in midfield and others will need to shift him which I consider unlikely unless he gets injured or rested as my opinion is that he’s one of the best box to box midfielders in the whole of European football. Like Gueye I think he falls under the Radar. I saw him play once and he stood out so I started watching him when Watford play on tv (I can get bored watching other teams) and concentrated on watching him and I just think he’s immense. I need hoping we got him last season when Silva moved.

If he plays, then up to others, be it Gbamin, Gomes, Delph, Siggy and Davies (& probably Bernard if we get Zaha) to challenge for the two (or three depending on tactics) spots left. 5 or 6 players for two or three positions which are crucial to how we play does not seem overly stocked to me.

Schneiderlin, Besic and Bangingme I don’t include.

The competition for places does not include Doucouré being dropped for lack of form, fitness or tactics. Nor does it include possibility of Gbamin being used in a back 3 or 5 in some games which I suspect will occur although I’ve still never seen Everton ever play well with back 3 ever despite many managers having tried.

People saying too many players I think I are mad and I wonder did you watch us last season? Players like Richarlison, Sigurdsson, Bernard and Gomes desperately needed resting at times last year (we hardly had any games after dropping out of both cups early) but played owing to lack of numbers. It’s a squad game now even without Europe if you want to be successful.

I’m keen we sign this player as consider it will transform our team.