Heritage body recommends that Bramley-Moore Dock plan be called in

Tuesday, 8 September, 2020 86comments  |  Jump to last

Historic England, a public heritage body that seeks to preserve and care for “England's historic environment” have called on the Government to scrutinise Everton's plans to build a new stadium on Liverpool's derelict north docks.

In a statement on their website, Historic England argue that Liverpool's docklands, a Unesco World Heritage Site, are the “pride” the city and “key to its global significance” and they are concerned that Everton's plans to build on the biggest of the docks in the Stanley Dock complex poses a significant threat to special character of the area.

“A new stadium for Everton Football Club is close to the hearts of its fans and football has long formed part of Liverpool's identity,” the statement reads. “We have had extensive and productive discussions with the Club about how best to develop the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock and understand the attraction of this exceptional location.

“Due to the impact of the proposals on a World Heritage Site, which has the highest level of heritage protection and is internationally significant, we regrettably think that this application should be determined by the Secretary of State and will ask for it to be called in for his determination. We have also advised that the application should be refused, unless the decision-maker concludes that the public benefits would outweigh the damage to Bramley-Moore dock and the harm to the World Heritage Site which the proposals would cause.”

Liverpool's docks have undergone years of regeneration that has transformed the city's waterfront — from the development of the Albert Dock and the erection of the Echo Arena at the King's Dock (to where, of course, Everton hoped to relocate back in 2004) to the Museum of Liverpool on the southern end closer to the city centre.

Meanwhile, Liverpool Waters under the auspices of Peel Holdings have long had a £5bn regeneration plan to redevelop the docks from Prince's Dock to the wastewater treatment plant north of Bramley Moore Dock primarily with residential buildings on the existing footprints.

Historic England's objections appear to be based not on Everton's plans to build on the dock site per se but on the club's desire to fill Bramley-Moore Dock in to create the footprint for the 52,000-plus stadium.

“We acknowledge the potential benefits that a new stadium could bring to north Liverpool and we understand the challenges that the area faces,” their statement continues. “The dock has planning permission for residential development so there are potential alternative solutions that could retain the water-filled dock whilst developing the currently derelict area. We do not believe that the city faces a stark choice between dereliction or football stadium.

“[W]e consider that the proposal to infill the dock would fundamentally change its historic character as a water-filled basin which so clearly tells the story of the docks and has contributed to its status as a World Heritage Site. The loss of the water would result in substantial harm to the significance of the Grade II listed Bramley-Moore Dock and cause harm to the World Heritage Site.

“Due to the impact of the proposals on a World Heritage Site, which has the highest level of heritage protection and is internationally significant, we regrettably think that this application should be determined by the Secretary of State and will ask for it to be called in for his determination.

“We have also advised that the application should be refused, unless the decision-maker concludes that the public benefits would outweigh the damage to Bramley-Moore dock and the harm to the World Heritage Site which the proposals would cause.”

Despite these perceived risks to the dock site and its heritage, Everton's plans are likely to be viewed favourably by the Government whose “Build, build, build” mantra is central to its hopes of stimulating the economy in the wake of the Covid-19 pandemic and the United Kingdom's exit from the European Union.

As such, a major construction project that is expected to bring thousands of jobs to Liverpool and has the potential to generate £1bn in benefits to the city could receive plenty of backing in Westminster, particularly if the Secretary of State feels that the club and the developers, Laing O'Rourke, have met the requirements of making the design sensitive to the character of the surrounding area.

 

Reader Comments (86)

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Colin Glassar
1 Posted 08/09/2020 at 16:22:26
I knew sooner or later some group of nerds would try and derail this.
Chris Williams
2 Posted 08/09/2020 at 16:26:53
Colin,

It will be interesting to see how this Tory government, desperate to get the economy moving, and big infrastructure projects and employment opportunities, might respond to the request to call it in.

Steve Ferns
3 Posted 08/09/2020 at 16:31:02
Not a fan of the Tories, but doubt there's a better government for us in this instance. They'll dismiss the challenge as they're more interested in the economic aspects and they'll score more political points from letting us build the stadium than stopping it.

Added to that, Moshiri will hire the best legal team money can buy, I doubt Historic England has the funds to go toe-to-toe with us and it'll probably be thrown out long before needing a court decision.

Danny O’Neill
4 Posted 08/09/2020 at 16:35:16
Ties in with their policy of levelling the economy as well, Steve. It's something they can align that policy to.
John Pierce
5 Posted 08/09/2020 at 16:38:11
This is just nonsense, the government will ignore it. Everton have already done a significant amount to mitigate objection, can point to massive economic regeneration and other similar projects.

It's white noise and they need to make the objection – otherwise, what's the point in their existence?

Or...

Our new Colombian links will smooth things over.

Chris Williams
6 Posted 08/09/2020 at 16:41:47
Also, they’ve just driven a horse and cart through the planning process for builders and developers. I think it’s called red tape.
Danny O’Neill
7 Posted 08/09/2020 at 16:42:50
I like that John. No problem here, nothing to see here!

I guess these heritage people would rather see it remain a derelict eyesore than regenerated.

Has anyone checked they're not a Liverpool supporters club masquerading?

Brian Williams
8 Posted 08/09/2020 at 16:43:41
World Heritage said the area would be in danger of losing it's World Heritage status if the stadium is built.

World Heritage status, certainly in this instance, means and stands for absolutely nothing. The area gets nothing out of it!

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

9 Posted 08/09/2020 at 16:50:52
I'm sure the club would have anticipated that given Heritage England's earlier statements.

Given the (potentially very damaging) slack the Tory Government wishes to allow planning permission in the UK to combat what BoJo himself calls 'Nimbyism', and given the state of the economy in the wake of Brexit and Covid-19, it would be a huge shock if the government puts the mockers on this.

They need it, the city needs it, the region needs it and we the club very much need it.

Tony Everan
10 Posted 08/09/2020 at 17:19:57
''Threat to the special character of the area''

Have any of those ladies and gentlemen had a good look at the long term decay and dereliction of that area?

Far from detracting from a World Heritage Site, this investment and sympathetic development will be the unique saviour of this historical area.

It will inspire more careful and respectful investment, reinvigorate the local economy and bring new life, in every sense, to the surrounding environment. The past and the future working in harmony to create a better present.

Anthony Murphy
11 Posted 08/09/2020 at 17:25:47
So what exactly do they want to see happen on that site?
John Graham
12 Posted 08/09/2020 at 17:26:09
Why don't these people realise that the once great port of Liverpool no longer survives as a dock port and so needs to redevelop derelict land so the city can grow and prosper?

Even if the land wasn't proposed to be used for a football stadium, they would dispute any modernisation of an area which is now wasteland and a total eyesore.

Maybe if they don't want a football stadium there, they need to put their money where their mouth is and build up the area so it can do justice to the great city of Liverpool.

Jack Convery
13 Posted 08/09/2020 at 17:27:46
A Conservative Secretary of State deciding on a Planning Application from a football club supported by Tory-hating scousers. That should go well.

I ask English Heritage how many of their board would want to buy a residence in that part of Merseyside. The Albert Dock it ain't.

Liverpool Docks were hugey involved in the Slave Trade – should we preserve that filthy stain on our heritage too? FFS, let us move on.

EFC are providing a huge chance of significant regeneration in an area that has been crying out for it for decades. Don't stop it now.

Steve Ferns
14 Posted 08/09/2020 at 17:34:53
Jack, Farhad will invite them for nibbles on Alisher's yacht in London. They'll leave with a doggy bag of goodies and it'll all be agreed. No need to consider the Tory-hating scousers.
John McHugh
15 Posted 08/09/2020 at 17:42:44
Like I've said on other forums, it's their job to ask the government to look at sites that they feel have a significant heritage status. This could be buildings or specific areas in cities all around the country.

The fact the club has bent over backwards in every aspect of the planning application and the economic implications it will have for the city, there's no way this will be called in. Especially in the current climate when this government wants to create jobs in a market that's on the downturn.

John Mckay
16 Posted 08/09/2020 at 17:47:08
What kind of crack have these people been smoking, some twisted gear for sure.

No offence to anyone who lives in that area but it's a shit-hole and it really needs new life and I think all the local residents would agree and it would improve the area also.

I understand the docks had a significant heritage because it was the backbone and heartbeat of the city, But it's unused land now crumbling into nothing.

Really annoys the hell out of me all these graded buildings and sites, out with the old and in with the new I say. No one will care about our history if there is no future, the future of this area needs this new generation, its exciting times not just for us as fans but the entire city and surrounding areas.

I'm from the Wirral myself but when they built Liverpool one up it has taken Liverpool city centre to a whole new level, it's the place to go for anything you want, be it shopping, entertainment, food or a night out the place is absolutely buzzing constantly.

Having a new stadium and building up those docks will create a new legacy for Liverpool. Can't wait either!

Can't see the planning getting overturned though; too much investment and income. Those heritage England do-gooders will just have to suck it up.

Paul Tran
17 Posted 08/09/2020 at 17:57:50
They have a job to do and they're doing it. I suspect our case, including regeneration & jobs in post-Brexit England, will suit the 'levelling up' agenda of the current UK government.

Our case is stronger. It will win.

Lilboy Blue
18 Posted 08/09/2020 at 17:59:26
So that's this guy then:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Dowden
Bill Watson
19 Posted 08/09/2020 at 18:00:11
Much better to preserve a water-filled dock surrounded by derelict buildings!
Paul Mannix
20 Posted 08/09/2020 at 18:02:52
Might be worth remembering that Michael Heseltine was very much supportive of this project and may well be able to wield some influence in Whitehall.

Stephen Vincent
21 Posted 08/09/2020 at 18:11:08
I've dealt with these bigoted pedants on a one-to-one basis. Cost a small fortune to prove them wrong.

Liverpool City Council could just revoke the WHS status then we save a fortune. Just left with the Grade 2 listing then.

Jonathan Tasker
22 Posted 08/09/2020 at 18:11:10
The new ground will conveniently fail on finance or planning or both.

I have never veered from this view.

Mike Benjamin
23 Posted 08/09/2020 at 18:13:46
We already knew this, it's been on English Heritage's web site since the design changes were announced. Everton acknowledged it in their statement at the time. No matter what the club proposed they were going to object because of the location and the infill of the dock.

They do acknowledge that if the Secretary of State concludes that the benefits outweigh any damage to the site, then it will go ahead. Given that part of the government justification for the billions being spent on HS2 is the creation of 22,000 jobs, then £500 M creating 15,000 jobs is a no-brainier.

Hopefully the club, contractors and Liverpool City Council are lobbying the appropriate politicians, including all in the north-west with many of their constituents likely to benefit. With the economy being on its knees, even this incompetent Cabinet will come to a positive conclusion on the project. I wonder whether anyone from English Heritage has actually visited the site? Even on TalkSport it was accurately described as derelict with no public access.

Phil Wood
24 Posted 08/09/2020 at 18:15:13
Jesus Christ!

Just wake me up when it's all over. Like a bloody never-ending nightmare. Thank God moving house is slightly easier.

Stephen Vincent
25 Posted 08/09/2020 at 18:15:19
And their office is in Manchester.
Colin Glassar
26 Posted 08/09/2020 at 18:22:25
I'm all for protecting our heritage and architecture (where were these nobs in the '60s and '70s when Liverpool was getting ripped apart?) but this is a wasteland!!

What the fuck are these “English Heritage” Anoraks protecting anyway? A smelly, dank, water-filled hole? A place where even the seagulls and local rodents avoid like the plague!

This has all the hallmarks of an rs Sabotage campaign.

Derek Taylor
27 Posted 08/09/2020 at 18:50:54
I went down there last month - with 2 Mancs and 'One of Them' and to a man they all agreed the area is a total shithole. Anything, but anything would improve this rotting site.

I've never been a great fan of leaving Goodison – believing it to be a means towards an altogether different end for Russian money – but how the funding from Government and the National Lottery can find its way to the Heritage loonies defies belief!

Len Hawkins
28 Posted 08/09/2020 at 18:51:38
Christ I'd hate to go for a pint with Johnathon Tasker I would be straight out of the pub to JLA and get to Geneva asap and find Dignitas.

Johnathon, other than having a good whinge about EFC, what else do you enjoy? Russian Roulette, playing chicken on the M62, or swinging from the overhead wires on the railway?

Dermot O'Brien
29 Posted 08/09/2020 at 18:52:11
English Heritage can fuck right off.
John Chambers
30 Posted 08/09/2020 at 18:58:20
Lilboy #18,

Different department for called-in planning applications: Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government

As was previously mentioned, this was highlighted alongside the news of the revised design, so I am sure the club, council etc are on the case. It is something we need to keep an eye on though and it may be that at some point we may need to highlight our support of this in terms of the benefits it brings to the city and club.

Karl Meighan
31 Posted 08/09/2020 at 19:05:05
It's a fucking shithole at the minute, gobshites. Would it be called in if Liverpool wanted to build there? Unlikely.
Geoff Cadman
32 Posted 08/09/2020 at 19:17:51
So it could be used for residential development to preserve the dock.

Just imagine... luxury apartments next to a sewage farm.

Tony Abrahams
33 Posted 08/09/2020 at 19:30:25
Convenient to whom, Jonathon T?
Jamie Abbott
34 Posted 08/09/2020 at 19:43:18
I liked the solution at 13. Get black lives matter brigade onto it and prove it was the biggest slave trade dock of the 19th century and it will be filled in before we've left the EU!
Si Pulford
35 Posted 08/09/2020 at 20:38:25
Jonathan. Do you know how much the club have already ploughed into this?

How would it be convenient for them for this to fail? It would be a massive, massive cost to the club.

So what exactly is the conspiracy your insinuating? That the club have pumped millions into a publicity stunt that they hope fails?

Billy Bradshaw
36 Posted 08/09/2020 at 20:47:51
Just had a great couple of days with our three signings being confirmed then miserable hole John Tasker comes along.
Paul Birmingham
38 Posted 08/09/2020 at 20:55:24
Hopefully, the clubs, done it’s homework, and will have anticipated such feedback.

The E H, need to take off, their historical nostalgia gigs, and get real, to the 21century, and than mankind, Athens world and the Port of Liverpool, move on.

The days of the Onedin Line, passed, years ago, and the North Docks regeneration, plans are huge to the transformation of the City and it’s future prosperity.

Hopefully the government will tell, them to get real.

EFC, have complied with all asks, from all parties and surely, this irritation, can be cleared very soon, and the DIG, is not delayed.

These type of people,

Paul Birmingham
39 Posted 08/09/2020 at 20:56:39

Need to look beyond the industrial past and build a new future.
Kieran Kinsella
40 Posted 08/09/2020 at 20:57:46
There was a point in time when homeless people, gathered, rocks were quarried and garbage dumped at a crumbling eyesore in Rome. Some bright spark decided at some point it was old enough that now it should be saved. And now we have the Colliseum as a tourist attraction. I think we are about 1500 years away from anyway truly feeling the same way about restoring and saving the dock but obviously these far sighted do gooders are thinking long term.
Paul Burns
41 Posted 08/09/2020 at 20:59:20
Where were this crew when the sewage plant was built on the "historic environment"?

These crackpots don't know history from shit and seek to hold the city back in some heritage Disneyland that never actually existed for their own private amusement.

They'll be given their marching orders from all sides of the political spectrum and any local politicians throwing their weight behind the whinging for their own gain will pay the consequences.

Tony Abrahams
42 Posted 08/09/2020 at 21:03:13
Just show them a picture of Melbourne docks, Laurie H, has got the pictures.
Brian Wilkinson
43 Posted 08/09/2020 at 21:04:56
I have come to a conclusion, the shock of Everton signing the three midfielders is pushing our neighbours over to tipping point, they have to come up with a slight derail, now the protected Newts fell flat.

Announcing the stadium after the week we have had would be all too much for our lovable neighbours, and we cannot have that can we, especially while they still wait to have a victory parade.

Neil Gribbin
44 Posted 08/09/2020 at 21:16:55
As much as I despise these Tory tits in power, there is no way, when this country is going to be screwed, that they will knock this back. Particularly when there are numerous modern buildings in the area already. All the hotels between the three graces and Bramley-Moore?
Dave Abrahams
45 Posted 08/09/2020 at 21:23:13
Some really funny comments on this thread, Len @(28) and Billy @ (36) leading the laughter, got me giggling away.
Tommy Davis
46 Posted 08/09/2020 at 21:27:07
I can just see the English Heritage, doing a tour of the Bramley Moore Dock with, certain public dignitaries in tow (With a Margaret Thatcher type, speaking into a microphone) "This is the dock where the ships landed from Africa, after many weeks of sailing, full of slaves in a strange land" cue BLM, throwing the speaker into the dock Cheers & applause echo around Bramley Moore Dock, as the English Heritage group nervously ask, "So what's a good starting date to fill in this decrepit reminder & get the new stadium going?"
Philip Bunting
47 Posted 08/09/2020 at 22:01:18
Historic England are only doing their job. They have to be seen to be looking after our heritage and they know full well by not speaking out that makes them look irrelevant to a degree. So by speaking outt knowing the battle is as good as lost they have at least earned their corn and job title for a while yet. To be expected.
Barry Rathbone
48 Posted 08/09/2020 at 22:15:09
Heritage wallahs behaving exactly as expected one can only hope the club anticipated this predictable outcome and have plans in place to kick them in the bollocks. The club endorsing the dreadful Meis design in the first place doesn't fill me with confidence though
Dave Speed
49 Posted 08/09/2020 at 22:28:26
I sent this to Joe Anderson a year or so ago when it was pointed out that English Heritage et al might object:
I would just like to comment about my team Everton planning to build our new stadium on the Bramley Moore site (thanks for all you have done), and the objections raised by some people who are using the World Heritage threats to have it stopped. The "World Heritage Status" objection in my view is just snobby, jealous and judgemental people's way of getting in the way of progress. The Heritage of this City is based on world trade, migration and the culture of football, amongst other things. If Everton build our new stadium it will fit perfectly into our heritage with regard to migration and football. People departed these shores from the Liverpool Docks and took their football with them. I am sure that, just as there are Evertons around the world, there are other names of teams taken from British and Southern Irish clubs. A football stadium on a World Heritage site is a fitting and lasting tribute, and the case should be taken up by our City Council and argued. If we don't build the stadium then the site will remain an eyesore for at least 20 years or so, based on Peel Port's plans for the redevelopment of the site. I hope that these ridiculous objections can be ended once and for all.
Peter Fearon
51 Posted 08/09/2020 at 22:52:56
Anyone would think we were trying build on the site of Westminster Abbey. This is a pool of sewage held in my a 170 year old brick wall. I wonder if any of these Heritage guys have ever been along the dock road and seen what a neglected, derelict, abandoned, blighted urban nightmare some parts of it are. World Heritage Site! Give them a donation and send them off to extort some other developer.
Rob Hooton
53 Posted 08/09/2020 at 23:03:19
It’s not internationally significant because most of the world doesn’t give a shit, the place is a dump and it is an insult to future generations not to redevelop the area and bring it back to life.
It’s legacy is to that of the slave trade and the empire, I can only put these claims down to mischief.
Steve Ferns
54 Posted 08/09/2020 at 23:12:20
One thing is that Liverpool Waters project has stalled. It’s been around for a few years, they’ve scaled back on the plans, such as reducing the proposed height of the Shanghai Tower, and nothing has happened yet. Everton, and I’m sure Peel holdings would support them, could argue that the whole £4 BILLION project depends on Everton getting their stadium as the catalyst for the project to take off. No Tory government, especially one battling to restart the economy, will go against that.

I doubt this will be called in and will be dismissed quietly. With discussions done behind the scenes and brown paper bags changing hands.

Laurie Hartley
55 Posted 08/09/2020 at 23:52:24
Very short sighted of the WHS in my opinion.

I would have thought that the location of the sewerage plant makes any residential development on the BMD site unlikely.

On the other hand once the stadium is built any multi storey commercial or residential development becomes a much more attractive proposition and the preservation of the remaining docks between BMD and the pier head almost guaranteed.

In response to Tony @ 42 - With a little bit of collaboration between the various stakeholders waterfront can be transformed into something like this.

Link

Scroll down the page to see the transformation that took place over 20 years.
Then look at the the jobs created and private investments.

I would question the integrity of any government that stood in the way of this sort of regeneration.

John Maxwell
56 Posted 09/09/2020 at 07:00:58
How many other dockland sites have been called in? Did Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Southampton have this problem? This can only happen to Everton.

As it's been mentioned before, this project will add jobs, regeneration to the area.

Who are these fucktards? Why don't they move there and send us a postcard.

Tony Abrahams
57 Posted 09/09/2020 at 07:26:10
Thanks Laurie, I love looking at that for some reason and hasn’t this helped Melbourne to be voted the best city in hemisphere on countless occasions? Our waterfront is made for this type of redevelopment, it will take a long time but they do say all the best thing are worth waiting for!
Derek Moore
58 Posted 09/09/2020 at 07:29:47
Steve Ferns and others are right. If this doesn't get through under a Tory Government it never will.

The Housing Secretary, Robert Jenrick, has been accused of taking cash from billionaire developers to facilitate a development and of improperly taking the taxpayer of £100k in parliamentary expenses for a country house his family and he were isolating - all this just in the last five months.

I suggest that Jenrick could easily become an enormous supporter of the redevelopment up to the cabinet level and I'd be disappointed if that wasn't the case. The club should pull out all the stops here to get the support necessary to proceed.

In the interim, though, it is bad news. If the new stadium is not allowed to proceed, then there isn't a path to profitability for Moshiri and he has little or no financial incentive to retain his ownership stake. This is the worst case scenario and one we must do everything possible to avoid. Without a new stadium, we're sunk.

Christine Foster
60 Posted 09/09/2020 at 08:27:43
Frankly, it didn't matter one fig what designs incorporated what, the fact is they don't want a football stadium anywhere near the site. They don't want the dock filled in, even if it's reversed at some point in the future.

Just exactly what they would consider as appropriate development appears to exclude any actual commercial activity at all. Residential? With the sewerage plant a 100 mtrs away? Not a good option. It's a badly run-down area both inside the dock walls and along the Dock road.

I think the sewerage plant has been the only development in the past 50 years if you exclude the current Stanley Dock project... has anyone ever taken a walk across the road behind the side streets such as Dublin Street, where the rats run free during the day! It's a nightmare, truly is.

Let's face it, is there any wonder the area has fallen into such decline when you have the restrictions placed on any development by the heritage lobby? If this doesn't get through, nothing will for another 50 years!

Len Hawkins
61 Posted 09/09/2020 at 08:55:24
Considering someone pointed out English Heritage is based in Manchester, why did they not stop the Salford Docks redevelopment?

Surely a dirty unsightly shithole is far more popular than a new multi-use leisure, commerce, arts, and housing project which they developed by trying to stop a fantastic football Stadium close by a sewage treatment works.

It is a very unfunny cost-spiralling joke, by the time this is sorted there'll be a sharp intake of breath and the price of materials will have gone through the roof.

Andrew Ellams
62 Posted 09/09/2020 at 09:15:41
So would this land on the desk of Robert Jenrick then? The crook who recently pushed through a development for Richard Desmond despite the local council pushing back on it and ensuring £40m in taxes stayed in Desmond's back pocket and not the taxpayer's?

I wonder how we could convince him?

Derek Thomas
63 Posted 09/09/2020 at 09:45:59
Southern and Internationally based rs stalling tactics. We've consulted the shit out of the whole Stadium Plan thing just in case of such a ploy.
Added to that, present them with the obvious defence... 'So you're happy to see the disused, derelict and totally un-useable docks remain disused, derelict etc. and thus deteriorate further.'

Funny how the Sewage Plant next door, didn't cause such historic dock heritage driven angst.

Last throw of the dice in the Kopite jealousy stakes. Not totally unexpected.

Tell 'em to do one and stick their blue plaque where the sun don't shine.

Si Cooper
64 Posted 09/09/2020 at 10:23:36
I'm not supporting them but the Heritage lot aren't saying the dock shouldn't be developed, just that they don't want the dock filled in and would prefer something that wouldn't require that. It's up to the Government to decide which option outweighs the other.

My worry is that the obsession with building residential property, fuelled by the State-led misinformation campaign about the housing market, may cause the minister to give too much credence to any putative mainly residential scheme.

Barry Hughes
65 Posted 09/09/2020 at 12:01:59
One of the people who represent Historic England is Alex Balfour. On Historic England Biography page about Alex it says... In one of his other jobs... Alex is CEO of Digital Services Uk ltd. Which helps some of the biggest Sports and Entertainment brands grow their digital properties.

He is senior consultant to a team which manages the rights to The Uefa Champiosn League. On his website, AlexBalfour.com, four of his searches are for stories relating to Liverpool FC... (maybe it was research!!!) Interesting what you can find... in plain sight.

Jack Ledwidge
66 Posted 09/09/2020 at 12:39:07
The Heritage society i'm sure are just doing their job. They've had their monthly meeting and it was decided to send off a stiff letter. If they didn't it would be seen as then not earning their keep.
Dublin's North Quays in the 80's was pretty similar. Decrepit old red brick building half derelict. Weeds growing through the roofs. Old train lines rusting away. Undesirables roaming these areas at night. All of this 1 mile from the city centre. Sound familiar ?
Hey presto Government decides to put in a financial centre- followed by apartments. Then hotels follow. Think Liverpool Waters. Then the old disused ( heritage site of a goods train station) is converted into the 3 Arena and bingo you've gotten a fabulous new area right along the river which is thriving ( Covid excepted)
So unless the UK Govt are total imbeciles it will happen, and quickly, as they will want to be cutting the ribbon
Anthony Dove
67 Posted 09/09/2020 at 13:14:39
I imagine the sewage works were built before it became
a heritage site. It therefor begs the question that if the area met heritage requirements with the sewage works
already in situ,why would the stadium not?
Nicholas Ryan
68 Posted 09/09/2020 at 13:20:11
The relevant Secretary of State, would be Robert Jenrick; the same Robert Jenrick who granted permission for a development in London Docklands on the 14th January, when from the 15th January the developer would have had to provide costly 'affordable' housing. It then emerged that the developer had made a £10,000 donation to the Conservative Party and had raised the issue of the development at a dinner where he sat next to Jenrick.

Jenrick's decision went against the advice of the local authority planning departments and the decision of the [government-appointed] planning inspector.

The local authorities concerned sued him for judicial review, on the basis of 'apparent bias' in the decision-making process.

Just before the document disclosure stage, Jenrick admitted 'apparent bias' and the case was settled, so he didn't need to disclose the relevant documents to the court. He declined invitations to resign.

Some planning lawyers I know, regard him as a laughing stock. Whether this is good or bad for us, I'm not quite sure.

Tony Shelby
69 Posted 09/09/2020 at 13:23:16
So, do we leave it as a derelict shithole (literally) or construct a gleaming new stadium built in a manner that is sensitive to its environment?

Surely the right answer is obvious?

Steve Ferns
70 Posted 09/09/2020 at 13:31:39
Nicholas, as I said previously, the relevant ministers and their staff will be dining aboard Usmanov’s yacht and leaving with goodie bags and I’m sure Farah or Alisher will make a sizeable donation to a foundation or Tory campaign funds. If anyone knows how to grease the wheels of government to get things done it’s our owner and our shadow director.
Liam Reilly
72 Posted 09/09/2020 at 15:57:28
So... let's leave it as a derelict shithole so folk all over the World can come and marvel at it.

Who's running this 'Heritage Society'? – Alan Partridge?

Jonathan Tasker
73 Posted 09/09/2020 at 16:35:56
There’s a lot of blaming going on here.
It would be better to acknowledge that, as they have consistently shown throughout the Kenwright era, the people running the club just can’t get anything right.
Am surprised that any of you are surprised at the latest turn of events.
Si Cooper
74 Posted 09/09/2020 at 17:04:26
Are some people not even bothering to read the article? Some ridiculous confirmation bias in evidence. Absolutely no one is saying just leave it as a derelict shithole. Absolutely everyone is saying it needs development. It’s just some don’t want the dock to be filled in.
I can kind of see their point even though I don’t agree with it. I don’t see that history necessarily has to be preserved to that nth degree and the bureaucrats should have that flexibility too.
As I’ve posted, my concern is the hyped up importance of residential developments will give the minister a sound bite he can’t resist.
John Chambers
75 Posted 09/09/2020 at 17:48:17
Anthony Dove #67. When the sewage plant was built The dock was sand filled as, I believe, is proposed for BMD so the wall would be preserved and could be returned to a dock at a future state. If it was OK for UU don’t see why it shouldn’t be for us
Ray Roche
76 Posted 09/09/2020 at 17:58:05
John, maybe it’s the water, then, that is historically important?
I mean, the dock walls etc. are being preserved so the only thing that’s going is the water in the dock.
You couldn’t make it up.🤦🏻‍♂️
Neil Copeland
77 Posted 09/09/2020 at 18:00:02
It’s not just the redevelopment of BMD that is at stake, there is also the plans for the existing GP site. So, whilst WHS are only interested in what happens at BMD the government will take into consideration GP as well.

I find it very difficult to imagine a Tory government at any time standing in the way of such a fantastic project for the city of Liverpool. When taking the current economic plight into account the timing of the objections by WHS is probably actually pretty good for EFC.

Billy Bradshaw
78 Posted 09/09/2020 at 18:14:13
Good article in the echo today about council plans for the northern docks development, Bramley Moor and Everton get a mention, plus trying to keep the heritage society happy.
Martin Berry
79 Posted 09/09/2020 at 23:27:50
Are there some great crested newts swimming in Bramley Moore Dock?

There is no way on earth Everton's proposals for development will be turned down. To miss out on the prosperity that a project like this will generate and the growth catalyst in the vicinity would be sheer madness to turn down.

Rest easy the faithful, we will be moving in!

Adam Fenlon
80 Posted 10/09/2020 at 09:28:04
Remember when the shite were looking to build their stadium on Stanley Park itself? People actually would have missed the parkland that would be lost. Cant imagine that's the case here.
John Zapa
81 Posted 10/09/2020 at 10:37:08
As others have already mentioned, they just need to show they objections officially for the records. The decision is not for them to make, they are just in an advisory capacity. The Government will not make any serious attempt to stop the project, but they may make some additional demands that add more millions to an already inflated and rising construction costs.
Anthony Flack
82 Posted 10/09/2020 at 10:53:39
Maybe the heritage crew should take a stroll from the dock to the city centre at around midnight

Heritage is not how I’d describe it

Chris Williams
83 Posted 10/09/2020 at 12:12:10
I see that the Everton Stadium Consultation has just won a National award for its scope, effectiveness etc.

Won’t hurt I guess

Patrick McFarlane
85 Posted 10/09/2020 at 16:15:10
Everton FC official website have announced that the club has submitted its ammended plans for the stadium:

The next step is for Liverpool City Council to review and process the amended planning application before starting their formal public consultation period. Led by the Council, the public consultation is a legal requirement that is anticipated to last 28 days and offers the public an opportunity to comment on the Club’s amended planning application.

Due to the size of the application Liverpool City Council may need to convene a special planning committee meeting towards the end of the year to make its determination. Subject to planning approval as well as the finalising of funding, the Club hopes that work could commence on-site early in 2021.


Amended plans submitted

Billy Roberts
86 Posted 10/09/2020 at 17:19:19
There is a number of sympathetic, admittedly sensible posts trying to justify English heritage objections.
I cant agree, to say they are just trying to keep themselves relevant isn't clearly an excuse for what to me is just obstruction.
Everton have made every concession to sensitive regeneration as far as I can see, notably actually improving the hydraulic tower ? And more.
Will this same group object to the demolition of Goodison??
Been quiet on that haven't they ?
After all it's only over a hundred years old, has been integral to the city of Liverpool, home to a founder member, the first purpose built ground, record attendances, world cup venue and much much more heritage.
Am I missing something here, why aren't they objecting to its demolition while they are fuckin at it.
Barry Hughes
87 Posted 10/09/2020 at 22:36:31
I'm still pointing the finger at Alex Balfour from Historic England, do your own research on him. Or is it just coincidence that he is involved with Champions league digital rights In his other business and possibly supports Liverpool?

Surely with his sports business hat on. (He is involved with UEFA, Olympic stadium etc, he should be on side!!)

He was reappointed to the board of Historic England in 2017 by the Department of Culture Media and Sport. Has to be some sort of conflict of interest!! Or am I just being a bit of a conspiracy theorist...

Tony Abrahams
88 Posted 10/09/2020 at 23:02:14
I think you’re on to something here Barry, imagine if the boot was on the other foot, they’d be screaming from the rooftops, or maybe it proves that a lot of Liverpudlians don’t really like football, more just the team they profess to support!
Mike Keating
89 Posted 11/09/2020 at 09:38:53
I see the Victorian Society are now using the scheme as a cause to justify their existence:

Second heritage group gives red card to £500M Everton stadium

If their efforts to preserve the facade of the Futurist cinema (a well supported local campaign) are anything to go by, we have little to worry about.

Billy Roberts
90 Posted 12/09/2020 at 10:04:14
The Victorian society meanwhile stand by while cinemas, public baths, fantastic pubs and houses are pulled down regularly, yet this will cause incontrovertible harm? To what? A wall that no-one can see and is mostly under water.

You couldn't make this stuff up, could you? Let's preserve something no-one can see or has access to...

These same people I bet you would not give a fuck for the men who built the wall or worked on the docks, they would walk past you as you were breaking your back in the pissing-down freezing rain. admiring the stonework.

Join your friends at English Heritage (whatever) and get a real cause.

David Matthews
91 Posted 15/09/2020 at 21:40:32
Completely agree with Heritage England. They've got this spot on. Liverpool's water front is a World Heritage Site. This puts the water front in the same league as the pyramids of Egypt and Stonehenge!

Having this accolade is for the very important issue of heritage and history and all Evertonians should respect this, just as we and the club should respect our own heritage by re-developing Goodison Park, our home of 128 years!

John Keating
92 Posted 15/09/2020 at 22:25:18
While they're at it, they should insist the Council rebuild the streets from the Dock Road up to Netherfield Road. Old Courts, slum houses with associated rats, bedbugs. A few bomb sites wouldn't go amiss either.

Greatie Market should be recreated "everything on the floor a happeny". Anyone who moved out in the '50s and '60s to Kirkby, Skem, wherever should be decanted back and issued demob suits and flat caps.

These pricks should be made to live there, six in a room, coats on the bed, cooking on the fire and an outside bog. Heritage, my arse!


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