Bramley-Moore Dock stadium takes significant step forward

"The report by the City Council's Planning Officer, which will be reviewed at the meeting next week, has also been published today.

"I am pleased to let you know that the Planning Officer, following a very thorough review of our application, is recommending that the Committee approves our plans."

I do welcome the news though. This is our only chance to get anywhere near the top sides. If the Bramley-Moore Dock stadium falls through, then the weak flame of hope that has flickered for 25 years will be extinguished, possibly forever.

We need this stadium and we need serious investment in the team.

That process may not simply be a rubber-stamping exercise.

I can't understand the long period of time this is taking.

Tony A.

Apply for an extension on your house and see the endless rigmarole, mate. A fuckin minefield to the man in the street. Multiply by a million and we are where we are.

The stadium will happen. It has to, to fit in with Moshiri's business plan.

Looks lovely that stadium they built sitting in Stanley Park...

"It's like being dragged around the city by the bollocks."

Sounds as if we're married to similar women!

As those above has said, the only question is: Why this needs to go through so many hoops and take so long? Yes, I'm an impatient one-eyed Evertonian and get the need for due diligence, as with any business project or development.

But I'm also a native of the city of Liverpool so I fail to see why this would receive so much scrutiny and seeming sucking of teeth and intakes of air given the benefits to the city and one of its biggest icons that will only get bigger because of it.

Make both happen.

Having had the misfortune of hearing the drivel these so-called Ministers of State have trotted out (almost) daily over the last 12 months, I just wish it did feel like a formality – because it should – but it simply doesn't.

I hope to high heaven I'm wrong.

We could play the theme immediately before kick-off to encourage our players to launch into the opposition.

You're right. Another step but cautious optimism I think.

The irony of more stadium news after last night, however welcome... priceless.

This is news from Liverpool city council, passed onto the club, and as such would have been released today anyway regardless of the result yesterday.

From a purely personal point of view, I can't improve on my seat at Goodison but, for the good of the club, I pray this goes ahead. May we be once again be seen as the premier club in the city.

Hopefully the funding is in place to start as soon as approval comes through and a new home for the start of 2024-25 season could be a reality.

I wish our team selection was this predictable.

Next it arrives on a government officials secretary's desk and sits there until she thinks it is important enough for her boss to have. He gets it and decides which minister it should go to and sends it to his secretary's desk. She makes out his or her schedule for the week and sends it to them with the rest of their schedule.

The minister then sends it to a junior minister to see if all the correct procedures have been followed for him to receive it. Next, he will ask his secretary to inform the members of the committee to set up the meeting. One month later, the meeting takes place and after a week of discussion an answer is sent to another minister for approval. 6 or 8 weeks later Everton get an answer.

And now you understand why people want a position in the government.

The new stadium will act as a development catalyst for the North docks and add to totally transforming the area to mirror the South end.

To turn down this opportunity, via local or national government objection, would be madness after Everton's thorough approach to satisfy planning requirements of a heritage site.

Regrettably, this is the state that we have become (the UK). We produce and manufacture very little (that the world wants at the prices we want to charge), our primary output is now "services" that can be got elsewhere (probably cheaper).

We have, however, become a massive bureaucracy, with layer upon layer of government and pseudo-government "Quangos", telling us how our lives should be lived and managed.

I honestly believe that, after the effects of Covid-19 and the devastation this has writ upon the economy, people will start to realise that the job of the bloke living next door to you, who works for the local council and is earning £20,000 a year more than you, isn't really necessary for the good order of your borough and that if that job disappeared tomorrow, no-one would be worse off, except your neighbour.

When that happens – then the new "economic revolution" in the UK will start to happen.

Until then, this is the "red tape" we have to suffer.

Just another depressed and cynical Blue after last night.

Germany meanwhile is the economic powerhouse of Europe. Because they have maintained a very healthy and strong manufacturing sector. Top of my head, without looking: BMW, Audi, Porsche, Mercedes, Volkswagen, Bose, Siemens, Bayer, Bosch, Adidas.

Now I've probably over-simplified matters and there are likely some economic wizards on here as this site genuinely never ceases to amaze, but is that is my high-level view.

Thanks for the pointer.

Right, as someone who can just about look after their savings, and is not an economic guru, I'll quit now, but good points raised on the subject.

It is 12,000 more than we currently have, with no obstructed seats to worry about.

I think the UK has always focussed on quality and standards hence the niche brands. Germany just takes it a step further as they do it on scale.

Positive area though with the pharmaceutical sector. Science and medicine an area we have rich heritage in and we can look to our own Liverpool University in that respect.

I can't see anything other than positive in this and it looks like it's happening.

I can quite easily envisage a world were stadiums and all 'public assembly' type places will be re-licensed for smaller numbers, at say 75% of the old capacity if we're lucky.

The Govt. / F.A. etc. will do it in stages, call it a phased return, a temporary back to normal road map thing and pluck a figure out of the air...say 20%, softly, softly, baby steps, no need to rush etc, in case it all turns to custard, start there and work it up.
But a full house, shoulder to shoulder, cheek and jowl, Goodison, I doubt it. BMD will be built before we get to that stage.

Yes, I know, its being so cheerful as keeps me going etc. But at the speed its going now, a good few on here...me for one...will be statistically doing well to see BMD actually built.
Under normal 2019 rules, I am/was fit enough to fly halfway round the world now and I had it pencilled in for this year and another for the grand opening - all just plans 18mths ago, but in 3, 4 or 5 yrs, who can tell.

Just get the 'kin thing built will yis.

Love it but it does sound a tad eye watering! Can we all come to the next one?

I don't think even this inept government will sit on this for very long; they're desperate for some good job creation news, especially in the north.

This will be the catalyst for the re-development of the north end docks area just as the Albert Dock was for the south end.

Or possibly somebody wants to know exactly where the sofa is now and what exactly the problem is the ring fence around the back of it is causing.

I don't think we need be concerned by the size of the stadium either. Sounds about right.

Regarding the capacity of the new stadium, is it not big enough?, who knows, but at least there is scope to increase it. Don't know if anyone is aware of this, but when Juventus built their new stadium, they actually reduced their capacity down to just over 41K. The reason being the old stadium, with a capacity of 67K was never full, so it was decided that a smaller, packed home ground would be more beneficial. On the big nights, it can be considered an arena worthy of one of the best clubs in the world. They also have scope to increase the capacity of required. So the old saying of "big is not always best" springs to mind!I

And I know we always sell out every home game, and have a waiting list of over 10K for season tickets, before some bright spark posts to remind me!

I know many hope that the new stadium will turn our fortunes around and lets hope they are right. My concern over the new stadium is how are we going to get 52,000 people in and out of the ground on match days. Unlike Goodison which is surrounded with Parking opportunities, the plans are to reduce parking at BMD to encourage people to use public transport. But how you get 52,000 people to the ground on public transport will need some planning. Maybe a purpose built railway that would run from Lime Street to BMD with trains running every couple of minutes like the tube to Wembley does. Wouldnt it have been great if they hadnt dismantled the overhead railway, could you imagine the sight of trains running into BMD on the overhead railway would be brilliant.

Dan Meis told me the acoustics were going to be amazing, so with 30,40,50.000 fans inside the ‘Grand New Lady’ the noise level should be more than satisfactory.

If it was up to me, I’d bring back the feet stomping on wooden floorboards and the use of rattles and rosettes. Let’s go all retro.

Regarding the capacity, I doubt it will ever reach the 62000. For an increase of 10,000 would lose 20,000 seats for 30000 safe standing places. Also lowering the roof means there is no opportunity for an additional tier.

We will get there with this owner and manager imo

Link

Many Councils in deprived areas are at breaking point.

But that people who were a few short months ago being praised by the BBC for showing the enterprise to keep the roof over their head are now being questioned by the standards agency highlights a little bit of the bureaucracy that has been alluded to. Especially in regards to how it stifles enterprise.

I'd like to think that everyone involved in the sale of domestic cooking is aware of the risks and benefits, for the record.

Where do you park on match days (Brian 68), mate, coz I always have a mare finding somewhere and normally have a 15/20 minute walk (although it is free). Aren’t they’re planning to have (paid) underground parking or some large car park next to it to accommodate traffic?

52k is bang on imo.

Also, there will be buses, taxis, bikes, rickshaws, donkey rides and even elephants to transport the rich and lazy.

I think we might take the old Trafford route, where a new station platform was built for a tram service.

I think it will only be a matter of time, before trams are brought in around Liverpool, it works well in a Manchester, Bury and parts of South Yorkshire, and the route to Bramley Moore dock is the perfect link up for starters.

Could also build a park and ride over the water, with a ferry service as a link, sure people will know a lot more than me, but just throwing out possible suggestions for match Day traffic and parking.

First though, let us get it rubber stamped next Tuesday.

Good shout mate

Unless he becomes Mr Bridger mk2

Much like the statue of liberty, it makes a statement of a city in blue. Welcome to the home of football, welcome to those who love Everton, they will travel from the four corners of the world just to be there. A pilgrimage that must be undertaken.Build it and they will come.

I woke at 5 am to write my posts above, it's still dark here at 6 am, but I am going to pull the covers back up, smile in the dark and dream of all things blue..

Seen lots of schemes, but they don't avoid that. Schalke has direct trams and your public transport for the day is free if you have a match ticket. Great on the way in, but they have to implement crowd control all the way from the ground to the tram station and it can take forever to actually get on a heaving one. I always end up walk a mile or so down the main road stop for a drink and then move on, much like at Goodison these days now I tend to get the train.

It's just inevitable when you have 40, 50 or 60,000 trying to leave a stadium at once. Maybe that is where we go with Tottenham's approach. Unfortunately they have barely got to test it, but they built restaurants and bars inside the stadium concourse. Not pie & pint stands, but actual bars - apparently the longest in Europe technically. The idea is the match day experience changes and fans remain in the stadium after the match for longer as there is more to do, dispersing as and when they want to. Good commercial aspect to that for the club too.

There may be more passengers on the New York ship who are familiar with the derogatory terms for the neighbours than you think.

Do you know about the Cunard Yanks?

Could kick the gig off with back in the ussr, with a sly wink to Usmanov.

Brent, I'll have the captain take it up to ramming speed. Bring a flotation device.

Already in hand - it’s Rob.

Brent, once John has made the mods to your pedalo can I cadge a lift with Rob please. Buy you a pint.

Trackless Trams
Article - The Conversation

as a potential low cost solution.

I can’t find my post but I suggested that the City of Liverpool and Peel share the costs of a pilot scheme from the bottom of James St to the new stadium.

The potential long term benefits to both organisations would seem to me be quite significant.

Wasn't that large overhanging bit deleted in the planning amendment? It looks like it contains significant terracing.

Failing that Brent could write it in marker pen on the side of his pedalo.

I assume that premium seats are the suites built within the stadium, so a significant increase in what we have now. Going on the basis that most executive boxes hold about ten people, that means there will be about 45 executive boxes around the stadium. The away allocation is only about 300 more than what it is now, so good news all round.

Agenda etc here:
Link

On the agenda link one of the supporting documents a downloadable PDF, Agenda Item 3 - Appendix 09 - Reasons for Approval, item 2, is well worth a read.

Nine pages long, an easy read, it has various sub-headings. For me, these are the main takeaways:

Principle of Development

'Having very carefully considered the information submitted the Local Planning Authority is satisfied there are compelling reasons for the stadium to be located at Bramley Moore Dock and a convincing case why the
significant public benefits will deliver outweigh the substantial harm to the heritage assets to justify the development.'

Heritage Issues & WHS

Whilst acknowledging that the site is 'sensitive from an historic environment perspective', with a likely 'impact historic assets', the club is praised as it 'has liaised closely with Liverpool City Council and Historic England all the way through the application process and been guided by the constructive
advice provided.

This section concludes by saying 'Although it is acknowledged that the development
will result in harm to heritage assets...it is considered the
development would bring significant public benefits to an area that is in real need. The application is a unique opportunity and it is considered there are compelling
reasons why on balance the development is necessary to achieve substantial public benefits that outweigh the harm that would occur.'

Transport, Highways & Traffic Management

The proposal 'meets with all current transport policy at national, regional and local levels... with only
a minor impact upon the operation of the [existing transport] network...and will not disadvantage the traveling public or businesses.'

'A package of traffic and pedestrian management measures. will manage and mitigate the impact of the traffic generated and ensure people's safety.'

Some of the listed measures to be implemented will be:

* Kerbside parking across a wide area within a 20 minute walk to the stadium
* Ensuring local residents and businesses are not disadvantaged
* Introducing a crowd corralling system is introduced at Sandhills Station on match days to ensure the platforms do not become overcrowded
* Additional shuttle buses from the City Centre
* Three additional taxi ranks on matchdays
* Coach parking to the north of the stadium on Regent Road, with additional coach parking to the north of Sandhills Rail Station

Design

'Historic England have been fully involved in all stages of the process and notwithstanding their reservations...HE have acknowledged the design is sensitive to its surroundings and respectful of its context.

'...the design is sympathetic to the local character
and history of the docks...[which will] create a distinctive and attractive building with good architecture that will make a strong impression and takes full advantage of its prominent waterfront location.

A number of sub-headings follow, related to the envionmental impact of the build:

* Environmental Impact Assessment and Habitats Regulations Assessment
* Ecology
* Flood Risk
* Land Contamination
* Air Quality
* Noise and Vibration
* Wind and Microclimate

A bit too jargony to my eye, but basically the proposal again meets all legal requirements.

Inclusive Access

For disabled supporters, whilst due to the site constraints the stadium will have a relatively low number of car parking spaces in comparison with other football stadiums which [impairs a] disabled supporter’s ability to access the stadium by private transport [there will be] facilities within the stadium and access arrangements for disabled people including the provision of additional shuttle
buses free of charge by prior appointment.'

The report even describes Everton's stadium proposal as 'exemplary' in terms of accessibility and inclusion for the disabled.

Impact on Surrounding Area / Neighbouring Businesses and Residents

Basically, an Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) considers 'that the stadium building and associated works will not have a significant adverse impact in terms of daylight / sunlight /overshadowing; noise and
vibration; wind/microclimate; and air quality either during construction or [once operating].

However, on match days or when events are held there, 'occupiers of nearby premises will [experience] road closures...[due to] public safety and security reasons. [Such] measures are temporary in nature and should not
compromise the quality of life or business continuity to an unreasonable extent.'

Conformity with Liverpool Waters

Personally, I found this part telling, how it all integrates with the Liverpool Waters overall plan which the report describes as 'a key strategic regeneration project for the city.'

In this regard, the stadium meets with the compatibility with the balance of the Liverpool Waters development.'

Indeed, the report adds 'the stadium proposals will not prejudice the Liverpool Waters [but]...will in fact help open up development opportunities within the docks and attract further investment in the wider Liverpool Waters scheme.'

A BIG positive for us, IMO.

Security

No isssues on this front.

Regeneration

Quite a biggie, I reckon, and why LCC is getting behind this. Do we even get an inkling of the expected stadium cost with the line that the proposal 'represents a £505m investment in the area..?'

The report goes on: 'The proposed stadium is a unique opportunity that will provide significant economic
social and environmental benefits for the Kirkdale ward, North Liverpool, the city of Liverpool and the wider city region...in an area of the city which has experienced a long period of economic decline and needs regeneration. This is an important land use planning consideration (my emphasis).

Potential benefits listed are:

* at least a £1.3billion boost to the economy
* create more than the initially estimated 15,000 jobs
* attract 1.4million visitors to the city
* a positive ripple effect that will be felt across the city region’s economy, with local families with members working on the development benefiting from £32million of income
* LCC seeing an annual return of £2.1million in Council Tax
* Business Rates income yielding a further £1.7million per year

Taken all together, 'the stadium development will provide physical, social and economic benefits that will transform the area...giving public access to the dock estate, re-developing disused land and creating job opportunities in an area where they are currently very few it is
considered there are sound regeneration reasons for approving the application.'

Finally...

Objections (aka 'We don't care what the RS say!'

'The vast majority of representations received have been overwhelmingly supportive of the proposed development.'

Thanks again Brent for flagging this up. Appreciated.

Let me guess, Brent.

Were the initials of the two complainants J.K. and VVD...?

I imagine the post-decision scenes with those answering the questions on zoom, will be similar to Saturdays dressing room.

'I hope other developers in the city are taking note and learning from EFC how to prepare and present a planning application.'

Laid into Historic England too, didn't he?

Very gushing in his praise of EiTC also which, he notes, does so much good work and has helped lay the ground work for the Goodison legacy project. He even said 'Everton truly is the People's Club.'

Good to hear the chair, Tricia O'Brien closing the meeting by saying the fact that the full quota of councillors on the Planning Commitee attended and all voted unanimously in favour on both submissions will hopefully facilitate matters when they fall on the desk of the Secretary of State.

Now. Why didn't we lose on Saturday so conspiracists could have had a field day today: 'Everton that! Coming out with distracting stadium news after a defeat.'

BoJo and his government will approve this asap as, I am guessing, it would represent the biggest new build in the whole country and would be a huge stimulus to the battered economy, post-pandemic, post-Brexit.

Up, up and away, Blues.

So hopefully in 3 years time we can look forward to moving into a new stadium, and if we listen to those closely involved in the new stadium it will be something special. Now whether it can create the same atmosphere as Goodison then time will tell, but I am sure in time it will create its own unique atmosphere.

I know Barry in post 200 mentions that of the many clubs who have moved to a new stadium Leicester are one of the few to see a marked improvement in results. I well remember Arsene Wenger saying when they have built their new stadium they will be able to compete financially with any club in the world, well it hasnt happened yet.

My one request to the club is why not try were possible to move the groups of supporters who sit in the same seats year on year into the same places in the new stadium. So for example all season ticket holders in Glawdys street are moved en block behind the home end, and the same for the main stand and bullens road where I sit. I think what happens is when clubs build new stadiums they don't keep the same supporters together, so you move into a new ground surrounded by unfamiliar faces. And thats why I believe it takes a long while to reproduce the same atmosphere as happened in the old ground.

Brain, that was my feedback as well, given West Ham problems.

It’s great to be an Evertonian at the moment.

They had character, history, tradition, smell and great atmosphere. I suppose we have to change with the times but I’ll miss Goodison and all he memories it’s given me.

Like Brian @221 said, the old grounds had a sense of community. You’d see familiar faces at every home. Have your own spot where to stand. The people in the pie shop knew what you’d ask for without saying - a cup of tea and a far drenched pork pie in my case. I doubt these new stadiums will ever match that.

And the value of his shares have gone up.

Made me laugh that one

A true vision!