FAN ARTICLES
Ask Me No Questions...
By Steve McBride : 19/07/2007 : 
Comments (51) :
.. I'll tell you no lies?
Comments (51) : We?re moving to Kirkby and those who still believe the vote will make the slightest bit of difference to that are sadly pissing against the wind. There may well be a sizeable number, even a majority, of fans that will vote ?no? but looking at the surveys and based on the posts to this and other sites, for every post supporting the move there is counter post rejecting it so, with the undecided having to make a decision, I would guess it will probably only be around 60-40 one way or the other. Not enough to dissuade, not that I believe it would anyway, our ?guardians?.
One thing that is really annoying me is the number, (majority), of posts from the pro-Kirkby contingent who ?accuse? the ?Kirkby Resistance? as saying ?no? based purely on an emotional attachment to GP.
I assume that the majority of posters read TW and other sites on a regular basis, sometimes I wonder, and, in my experience of it/them, the majority of fans ?resisting? the ?Deal of the Century?, although wishing a redeveloped GP was an option, are intelligent enough to understand that this is very unlikely and a move to a new stadium is essential but, it?s where we move to that causes concern.
Let?s look at the reasons many cite as why ?no? must be the vote.
Doesn?t feel right ? No it doesn?t, but I suppose you could say any move would be strange. Moving the Pier Head to Otterspool wouldn?t feel right, you?d still get the ferry there but?Or maybe this ?gut feeling? is linked to something mentioned further down the page (if you can be arsed reading that far)?
Erosion of fanbase ? The safeguarding of future fans I believe to be in our hands, not the club?s, if we do as we have always done, as our fathers did, (my family are RS by the way, ?born not manufactured?), then it?s arguable that we should continue unabated.
History ? Can?t be changed it?s there, it?s done, nothing can take it away from us.
Tradition ? Bit trickier, we can still have a Toffee Lady, still wear the same colours, I?m sure we?ll find some decent pubs with EFC persuasions for pre and post match discussions, we will still have the fans currently occupying the Lower Gwladys trying to break the world?s fastest football chant record but one of our biggest ?traditions? is striving to live up to our motto and this is where some concerns lie over Kirkby. I have seen pro Kirkby posts using the terms, ?state of the art?, ?stadium to be proud of?. Now I don?t profess to have knowledge of construction costs but a ?£75m? stadium doesn?t go hand in hand with labels which, surprisingly, the PR machine of EFC, whose job it is to convince/assure us that the biggest and most controversial decision in living memory of our club is the right one, have chosen to stay clear of.
Trust ? Now this to me is the biggy. Those in favour suggest that we should trust the board to do what?s right for the club, oh how I wish. To trust them on this decision you would first have to already trust in them and, in my mind, this is the whole crux of the problem. We are asked to trust people who have continually been very secretive about just about everything, people who, yes, before the ?BK is a True Blue? brigade respond, bought out PJ, (after sitting quietly on the board while it was all going on), people who have lied over investment, FSF, to maintain their position when under threat, (i.e. for personal benefit), have made phoney bids for players, Owen, and then failed to tell us where the money went afterwards, people who say they have no other alternatives BEFORE they sit down with LCC.
Don?t get me wrong, as some people may remember, I am not a big fan of Warren Bradley at all and believe his council to be contributory to this whole sorry situation, (and I don?t believe he has any alternatives that include viable financial partners), but the fact remains that Bradley himself admitted he hadn?t even met BK until Christmas AFTER he was ?tipped off? that EFC were talking to Knowsley. If this is the case when did BK actually explore all opportunities with the council to enable them to make comparisons and end up with Kirkby as the best option? Was the very strong link with Leahy, who is a big supporter of BK, an advisor to the club, who stands to gain personally from the deal, (more outlets, more turnover, more profits, bigger bonus), and would know exactly which buttons to push for the desired response, the reason we didn?t even consider a plan B? Tesco will have identified the site in Kirkby a long time before any exclusivity period began, and would have been aware of the criteria needed by KMB to get permission to build, so did BK not ?renew? discussions with the council, who had had a change of leadership since the last cock up, because Tel had already tipped him the wink? Conspiracy theories I know but the question still remains unanswered.
I can tell you now that I was pro move but undecided on Kirkby as the location as I was awaiting the finer details to see ?what we were getting?. After Wyness? comments this week I am now, for what it?s worth, decided on ?no? and it has absolutely nothing to do with emotional attachments to GP, (and I live 50 yards from it), or for that matter the city boundary.
The change of stance on the fan?s vote, the lack of a basic business requirement, (a contingency plan), the carefully worded statement, (all the quantifiable parts of the deal were vague in content , ?more or less debt free? implies debt free but actually means no additional debt, as his reference to Arsenal indicates, ?nice stadium?, no mention of the phrases used by our pro Kirkby fans, whereas the non so quantifiable were very specific, ?extra(?!) £10m for players each season?), these all tell my head, not my heart, that all is not as black and white as it seems and, on lesser decisions, if I trusted someone, I would probably take the risk and go with it but a decision of this magnitude requires 100% honesty and clarity for me to follow, (it?s not like moving house and then finding out your neighbours are crap so you move back is it?), something in very short supply from this board.
I can?t help but think, (note, think) that this deal is made to suit the board and their ?friends? in the knowledge that, no matter what, we will still turn up in our droves which will more than likely mean more income but would we be maximising the long term income potential by moving out of the city? Who knows at this stage, but I would like to make my decision content in the knowledge that all this has been looked at, preferably by an independent body, that all options have been explored and judged on their merit and all the findings made public. If this is the ?Deal of the Century? then the club has nothing to lose and everything to gain by doing this as they will show the ?dissenters? once and for all that they can be trusted with the future of OUR club.
So please, ?yes? men, have your vote for whatever reasons you believe to be correct, trust in the board by all means, you?ll be getting your choice anyway, but do not dismiss those of us who choose to question where there is no clarity by suggesting we are merely emotional, short sighted idiots. It takes a lot more thought to question the CEO?s ?deal? than it does to merely quote it.
How many times have you heard the phrase ?If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is?.
I hope I?m wrong and you?re right, I really, really do.
Reader Comments (51)
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Peter Young
2 Posted 20/07/2007 at 08:07:49
2 Posted 20/07/2007 at 08:07:49
OK,Steve,I wouldn’t buy a used car from Terry Leahey but I’d accept a free one if he offered it!I’m not orgasmic about Kirkby but it’s the best deal we’re ever likely to get.At leasst it won’t saddle the club with loan repayment charges which might well see us in a local state of the art stadium but totally unable to compete in the Premier transfer madness.
Head not heart, mate,is why this cynical old Evertonian will be voting ’YES’.
Head not heart, mate,is why this cynical old Evertonian will be voting ’YES’.
Steve McBride
3 Posted 20/07/2007 at 08:26:45
3 Posted 20/07/2007 at 08:26:45
Guys, I understand all of what you are saying, as I said, I am pro move from GP, but how do we really know that there isn’t the chance of an option that may cost more initially but will be a better long term option? Who is to say that if LCC identified a prime site for us that potential retail or other investors might look at it and think, ’I want to be part of that’? The whole point is we don’t know because BK hasn’t even asked. They have nothing to lose by actually doing what any ’business’ worth it’s salt would do. Would you book the first holiday you saw because it looked so cheap, or would you just check to make sure?
Is it too much to ask the board to act professionally for once on what could be the most crucial moment in our history? I think not.
We all know that we are unlikely to be worse off by moving to Kirkby but the least the board owe us is to make absolutely sure there isn’t a better gravy train to jump on. If they did and Kirkby came out on top for short and, the more important, long term, then I, and I’m sure many others, would be a resounding ’yes’.
For one thing, talking to LCC and them not being able to come up with a better alternative will stop a lot of doubt as I’m sure LCC will forever say ’We’re sure we could have come up with a viable option for EFC to stay in the city but they wouldn’t talk to us’ and ’no’s’ will forever hang that question over BK’s head and drive the wedge deeper.
Only time will ever tell if it’s a good piece of business won’t it?
Oh, If Bully did say ’world class stadium comparable with anything in the PL’, comparable with Old Trafford, Emirates, City of Manchester, for £75m? (Ricoh £68m wasn’t it?). I’m sure the drawings will make it look great but even you are questioning the reality. Trust? I rest my case.
Is it too much to ask the board to act professionally for once on what could be the most crucial moment in our history? I think not.
We all know that we are unlikely to be worse off by moving to Kirkby but the least the board owe us is to make absolutely sure there isn’t a better gravy train to jump on. If they did and Kirkby came out on top for short and, the more important, long term, then I, and I’m sure many others, would be a resounding ’yes’.
For one thing, talking to LCC and them not being able to come up with a better alternative will stop a lot of doubt as I’m sure LCC will forever say ’We’re sure we could have come up with a viable option for EFC to stay in the city but they wouldn’t talk to us’ and ’no’s’ will forever hang that question over BK’s head and drive the wedge deeper.
Only time will ever tell if it’s a good piece of business won’t it?
Oh, If Bully did say ’world class stadium comparable with anything in the PL’, comparable with Old Trafford, Emirates, City of Manchester, for £75m? (Ricoh £68m wasn’t it?). I’m sure the drawings will make it look great but even you are questioning the reality. Trust? I rest my case.
Peter Laing
4 Posted 20/07/2007 at 09:04:35
4 Posted 20/07/2007 at 09:04:35
Change happens Steve, history, legacy and tradition I believe are in the making, nothing ever stays the same and evolution should dictate the future. I am personally in favour of the ground move, I’m certainly not ecstatic by the prospect of moving to Kirkby but remaining at Goodison without the prospect of redevelopment, apparently no other financial package that will facilitate construction costs and a City Council by and large ambivilent to Everton’s needs I honestly believe there remains little option. Before the 1930’s we didnt have our famous club crest and motto, Theo Kelly created both a wonderful if grandiose latin phrase and a badge to befit the status of Everton FC. Evertonian’s its said are born not manufactured, its the fans that make Everton who we are, gives us an identity and an affinity to follow the blues. It will be a sad day to see the passing of Goodison, to watch the grand old lady being torn apart, but my hope is that we can begin another chapter and a brand new start with a new stadium even at Kirkby being the catalyst to make more history for generations to come. I have two sons who will follow in my footsteps, after all Everton is all that matters.
steve lyth
5 Posted 20/07/2007 at 09:38:52
5 Posted 20/07/2007 at 09:38:52
Well stated case Steve Mc, I hope it makes a difference for those undecided.
Steve McBride
6 Posted 20/07/2007 at 09:31:15
6 Posted 20/07/2007 at 09:31:15
Peter, read it again mate. I am happy to go if I am content that all options have been explored first, they haven’t, that the club act with 100% honesty and clarity, don’t think so.
One opportunity we’ve got to make sure it’s right for the long term future of the club, as I said, too much to ask?
One opportunity we’ve got to make sure it’s right for the long term future of the club, as I said, too much to ask?
Blue_Singh
7 Posted 20/07/2007 at 10:22:24
7 Posted 20/07/2007 at 10:22:24
I’m from Mauritius and I have supported Everton since my childhood. An Everton fan in Mauritius is very rare, though now my wife(an ex manure fan) and my son are following my step, they support Everton too now.If this possible here in Mauritius so it must not be difficult for you in Merseyside guys. When I see the distant between Goodison Park and Kirkby through Google Earth, its only some miles away. I would not tell you to vote yes or no, because i dont have the right. One thing is for sure that we must always be satisfied of what we have and what we will get in the future. We are proud of having GP though it is old and not modern. Thus we must also be proud of what will be the next stadium for us. We must not compare stadiums between teams, rather our quality of football on the pitch. I will only urge the everton supporters to be united in whatever decision is taken afterward. United we stand divided we fall. Glory to Everton.
Brian Waring
8 Posted 20/07/2007 at 10:35:00
8 Posted 20/07/2007 at 10:35:00
Good piece Steve.I don’t want the Kirkby move,not because of my sentiment towards Goodison.I know we have to move.I just feel un-easy about getting into bed with Tesco.There just seems a lot more we are not being told,I just can’t put my finger on it.When talks started it seems from the off there was only one thing on Kenwrights mind and that was to accept this deal.As you said why havn’t they explored some more avenues.What harm could it do?Is Kenwright scared he may be offered a better package somewhere else?And that is why he seems reluctant to do it.All the pro-Kirkby fans need to see just because they think it’s the ’deal of the century’we don’t have to agree with them.
Andy Mackenzie
9 Posted 20/07/2007 at 11:05:25
9 Posted 20/07/2007 at 11:05:25
Those pics do not give me a "WOW" factor, Sorry Bill! Looks like Blackburn with more glass!
Phil Smith
10 Posted 20/07/2007 at 10:37:14
10 Posted 20/07/2007 at 10:37:14
Mr. Wyness says that we have to leave GP because we have been offered the "Deal of the Century" so I was going to reluctantly vote yes. Then he spoils it by saying that it cost £500k in the Summer to maintain the stadium and that this money could have been used by DM to buy players.Who was he going to buy for £500k when even no-marks like Alan Smith are being touted for £6m? I have subsequently studied his statements on the proposed move much more closely and have concluded the move to Kirkby suits him and the board, not Evertonians.Congratulations Mr. Wyness,having read your ridiculously superfluous statement and because of the rest of the condescending nonsense you spout,it is now a resounding "no" and I suspect you have helped many others to make up their minds.
Nick Wjitham
11 Posted 20/07/2007 at 11:18:38
11 Posted 20/07/2007 at 11:18:38
I quite liked the look of the stadium from the side on however overall not enough detail, no daytime pictures, no pictures from inside the ground. Overall somewhat underwhelmed. As Andy said no ’wow’ factor. You compare it to say Portsmouths new ground - its just not good enough imo.
Doreen Lethcote
12 Posted 20/07/2007 at 11:50:51
12 Posted 20/07/2007 at 11:50:51
How drastically would season ticket prices be affected? In other words will the supporters be burdened with the extra cost.
Daniel Barton
13 Posted 20/07/2007 at 11:57:24
13 Posted 20/07/2007 at 11:57:24
Steve - I understand your point of view, and I too would rather redevelop GP or preferably within the city boundaries, but now the facts are beginning to emerge I am beginning to support the move to Kirkby. I have to agree with Wyness when he say’s there is no Plan B and this is quite simply because of our current financial position. Even if we could redevlop GP (which we can’t), we can’t afford it, and even if there was alternative sites within the City (which there isn’t) we can’t afford them either. The only time Plan B will ever materialise is if new investment is found to the tune of circa 𧶲m to enable us buy and develop our own stadium indepentantly. This clearly isn’t going to happen anytime in the near future.
Whilst I don’t think Kirkby would be any evertonians first or second choice location, you can’t hide from the fact this represents an excellent opportunity to turn around the finacial well being of the club.
It’s a difficult decision to make and we still don’t have all the facts, but I believe, it’s far easier to say "no" and hide behind blaming the club for a lack of options, than it is say "yes" and accept change and reality for what it is and to grab what is in the best interests for the whole club - not just those who live within the city boundary themselves.
P.S I think the new staduium pictures look great!!
Whilst I don’t think Kirkby would be any evertonians first or second choice location, you can’t hide from the fact this represents an excellent opportunity to turn around the finacial well being of the club.
It’s a difficult decision to make and we still don’t have all the facts, but I believe, it’s far easier to say "no" and hide behind blaming the club for a lack of options, than it is say "yes" and accept change and reality for what it is and to grab what is in the best interests for the whole club - not just those who live within the city boundary themselves.
P.S I think the new staduium pictures look great!!
Steve Mc
14 Posted 20/07/2007 at 12:31:30
14 Posted 20/07/2007 at 12:31:30
Daniel, I don’t think I am blaming the club for lack of options, that’s a different ’investment’ argument altogether.
If you read my post, I’m pretty sure I am saying that BK hasn’t even checked to see what options are available, big, big difference. Didn’t say Kirkby wasn’t the best deal because, I don’t know and the point is that BK doesn’t know either.
The club want us to go to Kirkby without even making the effort to show us that they’ve tried everything possible to find land and financial partners to keep us in the city and failed to get the right deal. As I keep saying, is it asking too much to put all this mistrust to rest once and for all?
If you read my post, I’m pretty sure I am saying that BK hasn’t even checked to see what options are available, big, big difference. Didn’t say Kirkby wasn’t the best deal because, I don’t know and the point is that BK doesn’t know either.
The club want us to go to Kirkby without even making the effort to show us that they’ve tried everything possible to find land and financial partners to keep us in the city and failed to get the right deal. As I keep saying, is it asking too much to put all this mistrust to rest once and for all?
Brian Waring
15 Posted 20/07/2007 at 13:18:01
15 Posted 20/07/2007 at 13:18:01
Is it just me? Or does it seem as soon as there is some unrest amongst the fans about a statement Wyness makes,he then comes out and contradicts himself.After saying the stadium cost could be £75m.Cue the fans saying it can’t be much of a stadium for that money.He then comes out, denying he said that,and the stadium would now be costing £150.Or am I just being too cynical.
Tony J
16 Posted 20/07/2007 at 13:47:56
16 Posted 20/07/2007 at 13:47:56
Look, Steve Mc’s right on this. I think this is the biggest decision ever made by this club. We need a period of non-exclusivity now! The board have a duty to talk to the council and Peel holdings. If nowt comes of it, then at least we have the full picture and have made the best decision we possibly could. To make a decision without all the facts is daft! VOTE NO and lets try and get the full picture!
John Charles
17 Posted 20/07/2007 at 13:55:15
17 Posted 20/07/2007 at 13:55:15
I think what Wyness means with the 75m/150m is that the bricks and mortal of construction will cost 75m and the land, development of utilities and infrastructure of building a enw stadium would cost a little but less than the same.
I maybe wrong but I imagine the ’stands’ cost 75m and everything else make sit up to the full amount.
I believe this wa sbecause everyone was moaning saying "it will only cost 75m’ without even seeing it first.
Its like saying "that Arteta, only cost 1.8m, fook off, I want Reo-Coker for 8.5m instead".
I maybe wrong but I imagine the ’stands’ cost 75m and everything else make sit up to the full amount.
I believe this wa sbecause everyone was moaning saying "it will only cost 75m’ without even seeing it first.
Its like saying "that Arteta, only cost 1.8m, fook off, I want Reo-Coker for 8.5m instead".
Ed
18 Posted 20/07/2007 at 14:22:52
18 Posted 20/07/2007 at 14:22:52
I agree with every sentiment in your article Steve. I am sick of being portrayed as an over emotional blue, just because I dont want to go to Knowsley. Ask any Evertonian whether they would have gone to the Kings Dock or any other appropriate site in the city and the answer would be a resounding yes! The problem is that we all know the Kirkby "option" is going to be very much second best (and thats putting it mildly). As for trust in those who lead (?) our club have the pro-Krikby lobby forgetten the number of funding/investment debacles this lot have presided over. There is no other option becuse the exclusivity deal was struck whatever the shortcomings of the city council are. Therefore how could any meaningful debate take place with any other interested party.Why should we trust them now? I can see no shred of evidence to do so, giving me a chance to vote when a negative outcome can be disregarded is a PR exercise at best and an insult to our intelligence. Kenwright is a disgrace he should of gone long ago if he had the long term interests of the club at heart. Everything about his leadership smacks of short term thinking and lack of vision.
The images provided thus far remind me of a kit stadium in the mould of Derby, Boro, Southampton, hardly inspiring.As for the sign declaring the peoples club, that just adds insult to injury. The policy of the club on the whole debate has been patronising and they have about as transparent as crude oil.
The images provided thus far remind me of a kit stadium in the mould of Derby, Boro, Southampton, hardly inspiring.As for the sign declaring the peoples club, that just adds insult to injury. The policy of the club on the whole debate has been patronising and they have about as transparent as crude oil.
Steve Green
19 Posted 20/07/2007 at 15:00:42
19 Posted 20/07/2007 at 15:00:42
So, Steve, you’d rather pass on a certain thing in the hopes that something better MIGHT come down the pipe in a few years? You say, "What if it does?" But, then again, what if it doesn’t?
That’s one hell of a gamble you’d be wanting the club to take, in my mind anyway.
That’s one hell of a gamble you’d be wanting the club to take, in my mind anyway.
Steve Mc
20 Posted 20/07/2007 at 15:32:20
20 Posted 20/07/2007 at 15:32:20
Steve Green, I suggest you actually read the article before making a comment on what you think has been said.
Steve Green
21 Posted 20/07/2007 at 16:39:18
21 Posted 20/07/2007 at 16:39:18
Who is to say that if LCC identified a prime site for us that potential retail or other investors might look at it and think, ?I want to be part of that??
Steve, I believe you wrote that in your first response. That’s what I was referring to, and that’s what I feel is a gamble as it may or may not come about. If I misread that, I apologize, but I don’t think I did
Steve, I believe you wrote that in your first response. That’s what I was referring to, and that’s what I feel is a gamble as it may or may not come about. If I misread that, I apologize, but I don’t think I did
Lord Dunshelm
22 Posted 20/07/2007 at 16:45:44
22 Posted 20/07/2007 at 16:45:44
while not one to endorse other rival (Everton) websites i would invite anyone who contributes to these discussuions or is indeed an "actual" everton supporter to check out the virtual images of our proposed new stadium in kirky on the BlueKipper website. Whether you are for the move or against there can be no doubt it is indeed a step up from what we currently have. Of course with Tesco putting a quoted 50 million towards the project, albeit with the mandatory shopping complex(es) along with the new ground. I for one would like to stay where we are but that just isint possible now. The old lady has done us pround for 115 years but a lick of paint and some major refurbishments just wont work. I only hope other people will conucur and understand my sentiments. Times change. Dont get nostalgic.
Steve Mc
23 Posted 20/07/2007 at 17:28:45
23 Posted 20/07/2007 at 17:28:45
Steve Green, you don’t know what LCC have been doing, probably FA, but my point was not to say no to a move but not to say yes without all the facts. This time scale thing is a marketing ploy to rush people into thinking they have to decide now or it won’t be there in a year’s time, (DFS, ’Hurry sale ends Sunday’)Well I’m sorry mate but I won’t be railroaded to make a quick decision based on ever changing ’facts’ from people proven to be less than truthful on something that will effect the club well after my days are done. The fact remains that Tesco and Kirkby’s plans will also falter if we don’t go with it, they need us just as much as we need a stadium.
The exclusivity period is to use up time, other businesses would be open to different proposals at the same time so they could compare and even play them off against each other. We purposely leave ourselves open to one option and then rush through a ’vote’. It may end up to be the right choice but the way it is being handled smells very fishy to me. Once it’s done, it’s done so, no going back.
The exclusivity period is to use up time, other businesses would be open to different proposals at the same time so they could compare and even play them off against each other. We purposely leave ourselves open to one option and then rush through a ’vote’. It may end up to be the right choice but the way it is being handled smells very fishy to me. Once it’s done, it’s done so, no going back.
Dave K
24 Posted 20/07/2007 at 17:45:27
24 Posted 20/07/2007 at 17:45:27
Trust:
No, I don’t trust the board but you can’t blame the board for not trusting LCC either, when they "give" Stanley Park to the RS and support use of Redevelopment funds (Euro community hand outs, I believe) for their stadium, and yet won’t "give" 50 mill to EFC.
Erosion of fanbase:
My guess is scouse kids will still support EFC outside the city IF we remain in the Premiership, less likely if we stay in the city as a Championship team.
City limits:
Easy solution(!). Next local govt reorganization,we push to extend the city boundary.
No, I don’t trust the board but you can’t blame the board for not trusting LCC either, when they "give" Stanley Park to the RS and support use of Redevelopment funds (Euro community hand outs, I believe) for their stadium, and yet won’t "give" 50 mill to EFC.
Erosion of fanbase:
My guess is scouse kids will still support EFC outside the city IF we remain in the Premiership, less likely if we stay in the city as a Championship team.
City limits:
Easy solution(!). Next local govt reorganization,we push to extend the city boundary.
J.harris
25 Posted 20/07/2007 at 16:05:24
25 Posted 20/07/2007 at 16:05:24
Why is everyone saying a new stadium in Liverpool will cost $150-250m?
Everything is about supply and demand.
A stadium in LIverpool has to be much more attractive to Investors, sponsors,corporate marketeers etc.
WHY? - because population, infrastructure, City of culture , ETC etc.
Would BK prefer to put one of his shows on In Kirkby no theatre or in the City of Culture.
Wake up guys this deal is to line some pockets and protect BK’s ownership not to develop the legend that was Everton pre BK.
Everything is about supply and demand.
A stadium in LIverpool has to be much more attractive to Investors, sponsors,corporate marketeers etc.
WHY? - because population, infrastructure, City of culture , ETC etc.
Would BK prefer to put one of his shows on In Kirkby no theatre or in the City of Culture.
Wake up guys this deal is to line some pockets and protect BK’s ownership not to develop the legend that was Everton pre BK.
roy coyne
26 Posted 20/07/2007 at 19:21:21
26 Posted 20/07/2007 at 19:21:21
Good post Ste What concerns me is I just do not trust Kenwright or Wyness and like you have a feeling we are moving for their benefit not Evertons I accepted we were moving as soon as the voting was changed to taken into consideration have never said I didn’t want to move its the locality and motive I have concerns over,no doubt some one will tell me I am not a evertonian because of this 4.5 miles thing only time will tell If our fears are groundless I would love it if in a couple of years someone posted ridiculing the doubts I have now as they where groundless
G Smith
27 Posted 20/07/2007 at 20:20:09
27 Posted 20/07/2007 at 20:20:09
Can anyone out there come up with a decent argument that actually involves a viable solution to our current problems? We have been looking for a new ground since I first started going and that?s back in the 80?s, but to no avail.
BK bought this club when we were desperate for a change and things have got better regardless of the setbacks. At every turn he seems he feels he has to answer his critics as if he wants are acceptance when in truth his position should not allow this. This is his only mistake because the vast majority if not all is rubbish based on her say and emotion. A move is the only way forward for EFC and this has been known as long as I have being going, and to be honest this has been the only viable option thrown up in over 20 years of watching the blues.
Liverpool CC never wanted city center football so forget the Kings Dock as an argument.
BK bought this club when we were desperate for a change and things have got better regardless of the setbacks. At every turn he seems he feels he has to answer his critics as if he wants are acceptance when in truth his position should not allow this. This is his only mistake because the vast majority if not all is rubbish based on her say and emotion. A move is the only way forward for EFC and this has been known as long as I have being going, and to be honest this has been the only viable option thrown up in over 20 years of watching the blues.
Liverpool CC never wanted city center football so forget the Kings Dock as an argument.
paul
28 Posted 20/07/2007 at 21:14:56
28 Posted 20/07/2007 at 21:14:56
Bargin basement shopping to a big name i would put money on it. What do i mean?.
We are moving and just to make sure the vote goes their way. KW and BK will suddenly produce the cash to buy a star player thats been lacking the last few months. That would sweeten the pot so to speak.
We are moving and just to make sure the vote goes their way. KW and BK will suddenly produce the cash to buy a star player thats been lacking the last few months. That would sweeten the pot so to speak.
Aarron Kehoe
29 Posted 20/07/2007 at 21:01:16
29 Posted 20/07/2007 at 21:01:16
I do agree that with ste that BK should have looked at other avenues, i dont see why tesco would not want to be part of it, if it WAS in the city boundaries. No disrespect to kirkby but if you had the choice of having your business there or Liverpool City, then the city would be a more attractive and lucrative move obviously (not according to BK). i also think that some fans dont want to move just through the convenience of GP, not because they care about OUR future. i heard in a forum about LCC having a place in Speke that EFC could build a stadium, and the amount of Evertonians that thought that was ludacris was surprising, Afterall whats up with speke, its n the city boundaries, its home to our airport, just beacuse some of us may just have to get a bus or travel, doesnt mean we should rule it out.
Looking at it from the other side, moving to kirkby does sound like it IS going to happen, and if they arent talking BS then it does generate a more healhy revenue for us, and put us in better sted for the future. its deffinately a competition between our heads and our hearts on this one. finiancially it makes sense, and it is only 4.5 miles away (Roger Bannister could have ran that in 18 minutes).
But it will be a very sad day to see us leave our city, afterall we introduced the game to the city, we were here first, and i really hope in 10 years we can turn round and give LCC the finger and have the finances, support and credit we deserve. all this said i think ii will be voting ’YES’ for moving to kirkby, but with a heavy heart.
Looking at it from the other side, moving to kirkby does sound like it IS going to happen, and if they arent talking BS then it does generate a more healhy revenue for us, and put us in better sted for the future. its deffinately a competition between our heads and our hearts on this one. finiancially it makes sense, and it is only 4.5 miles away (Roger Bannister could have ran that in 18 minutes).
But it will be a very sad day to see us leave our city, afterall we introduced the game to the city, we were here first, and i really hope in 10 years we can turn round and give LCC the finger and have the finances, support and credit we deserve. all this said i think ii will be voting ’YES’ for moving to kirkby, but with a heavy heart.
Chris roberts
30 Posted 20/07/2007 at 22:47:14
30 Posted 20/07/2007 at 22:47:14
"A stadium in LIverpool has to be much more attractive to Investors, sponsors,corporate marketeers etc."
No no it isn’t. Let’s be honest L4 is a bit of a hole with rubbish transport links. Ask yourself why an area so close to heart of formerly one of the greatest cities in the world looks so bad. If it’s so attractive why aren’t people investing in Everton there?
Besides which the new ground is a part of greater Liverpool to anyone but the most wool baiting scouser.
Personally I think it’s a great deal and no I’m not related Wyness.
No no it isn’t. Let’s be honest L4 is a bit of a hole with rubbish transport links. Ask yourself why an area so close to heart of formerly one of the greatest cities in the world looks so bad. If it’s so attractive why aren’t people investing in Everton there?
Besides which the new ground is a part of greater Liverpool to anyone but the most wool baiting scouser.
Personally I think it’s a great deal and no I’m not related Wyness.
Ian
31 Posted 20/07/2007 at 22:59:26
31 Posted 20/07/2007 at 22:59:26
The drawings look crap. Anyway I could not stomach going to "Tesco Park".
Danny Mullally
32 Posted 20/07/2007 at 23:20:19
32 Posted 20/07/2007 at 23:20:19
I really hope for the sake of the future of our club that this proposed move does not happen. Yes we need to get out of goodison before it crumbles around us, but I believe that we will be jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.
I have heard fans say that Bill Kenwright has steered us away from the Dark days of Agent Johnson. What a crock of s*$t. The only people who deserve credit for where we are today are the fans, the players and Davey Moyes.
The board have shown me nothing during the Kenwright tenure. It makes me mad to see statements like Wynesses this week. It is all about benefits to the board not the fans. Before everyone jumps down my throat by saying we will be getting a new ground and not much debt blah blah, look at the record of these people in charge. We hear nothing from them for 90% of the season while we continue to spend suporting our beloved blues, they appear only to try and grab some of the limelight from Moyes whe we produce a result.
It absolutely stinks from top to bottom, I just want to know facts and they aint forth coming.
If this Kirkby thing does fall through, I think it might be interesting to see what happens with the board. It could finally see off some of the time wasters only there for personal gain.
If I trusted this board, and all options explored were not good enough for Evertons long term development then I would be behind the board completely on this, but it is clearly not the clubs interests in my opinion. They say this stadium will be built in 3 years....just in time for a nice retirement £££££ package for Mr Wyness and Kenwright? Alledgedly of course
I have heard fans say that Bill Kenwright has steered us away from the Dark days of Agent Johnson. What a crock of s*$t. The only people who deserve credit for where we are today are the fans, the players and Davey Moyes.
The board have shown me nothing during the Kenwright tenure. It makes me mad to see statements like Wynesses this week. It is all about benefits to the board not the fans. Before everyone jumps down my throat by saying we will be getting a new ground and not much debt blah blah, look at the record of these people in charge. We hear nothing from them for 90% of the season while we continue to spend suporting our beloved blues, they appear only to try and grab some of the limelight from Moyes whe we produce a result.
It absolutely stinks from top to bottom, I just want to know facts and they aint forth coming.
If this Kirkby thing does fall through, I think it might be interesting to see what happens with the board. It could finally see off some of the time wasters only there for personal gain.
If I trusted this board, and all options explored were not good enough for Evertons long term development then I would be behind the board completely on this, but it is clearly not the clubs interests in my opinion. They say this stadium will be built in 3 years....just in time for a nice retirement £££££ package for Mr Wyness and Kenwright? Alledgedly of course
Dave Moorcroft
33 Posted 20/07/2007 at 23:31:14
33 Posted 20/07/2007 at 23:31:14
I have been watching the toffees for 40 yrs,I have never felt so fucking angry,There is 100s of millions of pounds being spent on rebuilding this city to something like it was many years ago,And all the visitors that will visit the city in culture year,They will see our home and there will definitly be many who will come to visit in future years,A lot of them will see that although the RS have more silverware they will see by walking around our great city that Evertonians are the real culture of this city not the weekend visitors.Once we move theirs no going back.Dont get me wrong,I welcome support from anywhere on the planet.I cant understand any of the shit coming out of the club.Why move from a large catchment area to a smaller one,I think its time for EFC to invent an exclusivity deal with LCC even if its only for 1 week then we might get some clarity about what wyness is on about.The whole thing stinks of corrupt innuendo and lies by EFC who i LOVE,And LCC who seem to do everything the Shite ask.By the way i have spent well over £100,000 watching the Toffees home and away in those 40 yrs plus many more £1000s in merchandise for my children and grand children.These so called custodians BK,Can move to anywhere on the planet because of their status in life,Real Evertonians are here forever.I dont believe anywhere near enough has been done by the main players in all of this to keep EFC in the city.I was born and bred in Kirkby and i dont know anyone in Kirkby or this city,Or anywhere else who wants to watch EVERTON play in Kirkby.So i think we should tell them the same thing we told Secret agent Johnson.They didnt ask me was i a season ticket holder when i was giving all my money over to them for 40 yrs,Or stop me going spending all my money in the club shops,So give me a vote.No because they have already rigged it.Give us Walton hall park.
steve
34 Posted 21/07/2007 at 00:34:11
34 Posted 21/07/2007 at 00:34:11
I can’t believe people some of the comment i am reading. People really do have short memories, Kenwright is a true blue, with blue blood running through his body, to say he is aiming for his retirement package is an insult to the guy, i respect him, for trying to do his best for the blues, he isn’t wealthy enough in his own right to provide funding for a new stadium but i remember the days when he stuck his hand in his own pocket to buy players because the club didn’t have it. The work to bring in fellow blues like Terry lehay the tesco chairman was a masterstroke, i’m not keen on the area chosen for the new stadium but we shouldn’t look a gift horse in the mouth.
I am 45 years a blue and i will follow them to kirby or anywhere else.
I am 45 years a blue and i will follow them to kirby or anywhere else.
Dave Moorcroft
35 Posted 21/07/2007 at 00:58:11
35 Posted 21/07/2007 at 00:58:11
Rooney was a TRUE BLUE and look what that greedy bastard done.Its all about the select few.From what LCC are saying i think somewhere would be found in the city that would be acceptable to everyone.But if you dont try you wont succeed.
steve
36 Posted 21/07/2007 at 01:11:51
36 Posted 21/07/2007 at 01:11:51
Clearly Rooney wasn’t a true blue, as some of his actions subsequently have confirmed.
Dave Moorcroft
37 Posted 21/07/2007 at 01:46:43
37 Posted 21/07/2007 at 01:46:43
Thats what i am saying(money talks).
lee rogers
38 Posted 21/07/2007 at 01:36:21
38 Posted 21/07/2007 at 01:36:21
just remember what it was like when johnson was chairman look where we are now.....no more earl barrats woohoo....
Aarron Kehoe
39 Posted 21/07/2007 at 05:05:32
39 Posted 21/07/2007 at 05:05:32
For Chris roberts, i think you should read what i said again, i said a ’BUSINESS’ would be more attracted to moving to a big city rather than kirkby, nothing about a stadium, or did you forget that tesco (who are a BUSINESS) are playing a pretty big part in this whole thing.
Steve Pugh
40 Posted 21/07/2007 at 06:25:08
40 Posted 21/07/2007 at 06:25:08
We talk about trust. I think that BK and co are cowering in the shadows because everything they do is criticised by a section of supporters, and always has been. Don’t get me wrong I think its time he stood aside and let Bill Gates buy the club (nice dream), but I also think we should so some gratitude for what he has done. As for the stadium, I don’t think a four mile move will cause too much of a problem as far as the fan base goes, I don’t care who invests in it, as long as it doesn’t cost the club too much in the long term. Finally, after the Stanley Park betrayal it is clear that LCC want one team in the city and we are not it. So a move out to Kirby, where we will grow as a club, become bigger than RS and stick two fingers up at LCC sounds good to me.
Steve
41 Posted 21/07/2007 at 09:11:13
41 Posted 21/07/2007 at 09:11:13
I agree we havn’t had Mickey and Donald come in and buy the club like the S***E. Kenwright has already got us out of one mess with Johnson and he will not let the club go to anybody who has not got the best interests of everton at heart. As a fan and the chairman he would have deliberated more than most over the kirby move. People have got to trust him he’s not in it for his own big payday, he is pasionate like all true blues and wants the best for EVERTON.
Brian Waring
42 Posted 21/07/2007 at 09:31:43
42 Posted 21/07/2007 at 09:31:43
Yeah Steve,trust a man who has thrown us so many lies about investors who never even existed.That is the problem Steve,he has chipped away at my trust for him.It has got to a point now that if I see him getting interviewed(only happens though when things are going well)I actually cringe.I remember someone saying "if he said it was raining outside,Iwould look out the window to make sure"And all this he saved us from agent Johnson,remember,he was quietly sitting on the board as it was happening.Didn’t his best mate Gregg lend him most of the money to buy Johnson out?Look what he did to him,stabbed him in the back.He has brought all this mistrust on himself.
Tom Darbey
43 Posted 21/07/2007 at 11:02:10
43 Posted 21/07/2007 at 11:02:10
As a born evertonian from North Wales, I travel to most games on the coach and get dropped off at the blue house and pick up the atmosphere from there. We then leave the pub half 2 and get into the streets which are rammed with blues because its so narrow, then when you get into goodison your in the mood and the atmosphere feels class and you really can’t beat it.
Basically what i’m saying is you can’t create an atmosphere in the ground without one on the outside.
I can imagine it becoming like Bolton’s built on a retail park and everyone going shopping and spread out before the game and no decent pubs for miles, then you get in the ground and all game all the home fans do is cheer along to some tit with a drum, and its s***e!
Basically what i’m saying is you can’t create an atmosphere in the ground without one on the outside.
I can imagine it becoming like Bolton’s built on a retail park and everyone going shopping and spread out before the game and no decent pubs for miles, then you get in the ground and all game all the home fans do is cheer along to some tit with a drum, and its s***e!
Robert Balmain
44 Posted 21/07/2007 at 11:49:16
44 Posted 21/07/2007 at 11:49:16
I don’t trust anything anyone at Everton says.They’ve not been truthful in the past why should now be the exception.
Being in love with a footbal club is basicaly illogical and my opposition to going to Kirkby is essentially the same. The club think that we will blindly folow them. Well I won’t. I’m already sick and tired of being taken for granted. I am of less importance to the club than hte Sky money. I’m fed up of games being moved willy nilly for the sake of TV. The etra bit of travel to Kirkby may as well as be a million miles. It’s too much for me. I shan’t be going. Just one more reason not to have a season ticket.
Being in love with a footbal club is basicaly illogical and my opposition to going to Kirkby is essentially the same. The club think that we will blindly folow them. Well I won’t. I’m already sick and tired of being taken for granted. I am of less importance to the club than hte Sky money. I’m fed up of games being moved willy nilly for the sake of TV. The etra bit of travel to Kirkby may as well as be a million miles. It’s too much for me. I shan’t be going. Just one more reason not to have a season ticket.
Terrymarsbar
45 Posted 21/07/2007 at 12:15:05
45 Posted 21/07/2007 at 12:15:05
If its on merseyside, and its Everton, I will go...after all Im an Evertonian..Ive been going to Goodison since 1970..and remember people saying they would not sit at football matches...
It will still always be Everton..and if you really are an Evertonian..well , I,ll see you there.
It will still always be Everton..and if you really are an Evertonian..well , I,ll see you there.
Lynn Ivers
46 Posted 21/07/2007 at 15:56:19
46 Posted 21/07/2007 at 15:56:19
Just wondering when the tesco store opens will they be selling or in fact giving away Everton mints or toffees for that matter Just a thought.
robbie b
47 Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:12:28
47 Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:12:28
would watch everton anywhere we need to move forward lcc havent bent over backwards to help until now and the harsh facts now are football is a cutthroat buisness this looks like its the only way to compete
Dave
48 Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:00:27
48 Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:00:27
Totaly agree with steve mc’s comments.
GP will very soon be just a beautiful memory,this is fact,but surely even the most pro-kirkby blues want to be absolutely certain that this is the very best deal on offer. our club is in very real danger of being split in two, that would break all of our hearts. The board can easily prevent this, by merely looking at all the other options.
Why the reluctance if they’re so sure they’re right ?
We would all love to stay in the city, I really, really, dont want to go to Kirkby, but if all possibilies had been explored and it turned out to still be the best deal on the table - for the club - then I suspect there would be no need to even have a vote, I and thousands of others will stop agonising and simply follow
GP will very soon be just a beautiful memory,this is fact,but surely even the most pro-kirkby blues want to be absolutely certain that this is the very best deal on offer. our club is in very real danger of being split in two, that would break all of our hearts. The board can easily prevent this, by merely looking at all the other options.
Why the reluctance if they’re so sure they’re right ?
We would all love to stay in the city, I really, really, dont want to go to Kirkby, but if all possibilies had been explored and it turned out to still be the best deal on the table - for the club - then I suspect there would be no need to even have a vote, I and thousands of others will stop agonising and simply follow
Nick H
49 Posted 21/07/2007 at 18:34:44
49 Posted 21/07/2007 at 18:34:44
It embarrasses me when I go to some of the other premiership grounds, because the harsh reality is that Goodison is a dump. The move MUST go ahead.
joe mcp
50 Posted 21/07/2007 at 21:47:00
50 Posted 21/07/2007 at 21:47:00
i and my wife and kids are all season ticket holders who live in scotland. anyone who complains about having to travel 4.5 miles extra should get their heads out of the sand. as much as i love goodison, it is outdated and so far as i can see nobody has come up with a viable alternative to kirkby. if somebody does come up with a new stadium in the city boundaries and it is as financially sound as the kirkby proposal then we should look at it, if not put up and shut up
Paul Johnson
51 Posted 21/07/2007 at 11:20:51
51 Posted 21/07/2007 at 11:20:51
A fine article.
It’s good to see that Warren Bradley has finally come out fighting on the GP move, as witnessed in yesterday’s Post. About bloody time Wozza!
I agree that BK should step aside, as David Moores wisely did across the park, and that we look like we’re getting an out-of-town shed to replace GP.
My view is that we are being forced into a move to Tesco Town by a board that no-one trusts, and a ’partner’ whose motives are questionable.
BK appears to be achieving the impossible - he gets to keep his shares, put no money of his own in (he doesn’t have any) and pull of an almost debt-free move to a new stadium. There’s no such thing as a free lunch though, is there?
Unfortunately, this all benefits BK and not EFC. The fans will be around long after Tesco Town is built, and long after BK and KW are gone.
Will future generations of EFC fans look on a Kirby shed with the same affection as we have for GP today? I doubt it. Will the fans still turn up in the same numbers and park in the EFC car park, drink EFC beer all day and buy EFC goodies at every home game? Maybe not.
Will the supposed extra revenue (of which there is no guarantee) transform our on-field performances? I doubt it.
Apart from death and taxes, I can think of two more certainties at the moment: the board won’t be bound by a ’no’ vote, no matter how overwhelming (the fans are not shareholders after all), and Tesco would not have committed the time and money that they have spent so far unless they were 100% sure of the outcome.
The claim that there are no serious external investors is unproven - BK would have to stand aside for this to happen. I don’t believe that the merchant banks couldn’t find an investor in one of England’s most historic and successful clubs, so long as there was real appetite to stand aside form the majority shareholding bloc headed by BK.
The claim that there are no suitable sites in the city is unproven. Yes, they may all have ’issues’ associated with them, but so does Tesco Town.
The claim that we won’t be able to use GP for much longer is unproven. This is scaremongering.
The claim that we can’t re-develop GP is a sham. I’ll believe it when Lord Rogers says so.
Extra corporate and ticket revenue from a new stadium is unproven. What makes Tesco Town more attractive to corporates than L4?
How much difference can an ’up to £10m per year’ extra for players really make? Maybe a lot. Maybe none. Risking the entire future of EFC on a potentially ill-founded move in chase of this objective is what it boils down to for me.
I’ll be voting ’no’ firmly of the opinion that it won’t mean a thing, which breaks my heart, it really does. Kirkby here we come...
It’s good to see that Warren Bradley has finally come out fighting on the GP move, as witnessed in yesterday’s Post. About bloody time Wozza!
I agree that BK should step aside, as David Moores wisely did across the park, and that we look like we’re getting an out-of-town shed to replace GP.
My view is that we are being forced into a move to Tesco Town by a board that no-one trusts, and a ’partner’ whose motives are questionable.
BK appears to be achieving the impossible - he gets to keep his shares, put no money of his own in (he doesn’t have any) and pull of an almost debt-free move to a new stadium. There’s no such thing as a free lunch though, is there?
Unfortunately, this all benefits BK and not EFC. The fans will be around long after Tesco Town is built, and long after BK and KW are gone.
Will future generations of EFC fans look on a Kirby shed with the same affection as we have for GP today? I doubt it. Will the fans still turn up in the same numbers and park in the EFC car park, drink EFC beer all day and buy EFC goodies at every home game? Maybe not.
Will the supposed extra revenue (of which there is no guarantee) transform our on-field performances? I doubt it.
Apart from death and taxes, I can think of two more certainties at the moment: the board won’t be bound by a ’no’ vote, no matter how overwhelming (the fans are not shareholders after all), and Tesco would not have committed the time and money that they have spent so far unless they were 100% sure of the outcome.
The claim that there are no serious external investors is unproven - BK would have to stand aside for this to happen. I don’t believe that the merchant banks couldn’t find an investor in one of England’s most historic and successful clubs, so long as there was real appetite to stand aside form the majority shareholding bloc headed by BK.
The claim that there are no suitable sites in the city is unproven. Yes, they may all have ’issues’ associated with them, but so does Tesco Town.
The claim that we won’t be able to use GP for much longer is unproven. This is scaremongering.
The claim that we can’t re-develop GP is a sham. I’ll believe it when Lord Rogers says so.
Extra corporate and ticket revenue from a new stadium is unproven. What makes Tesco Town more attractive to corporates than L4?
How much difference can an ’up to £10m per year’ extra for players really make? Maybe a lot. Maybe none. Risking the entire future of EFC on a potentially ill-founded move in chase of this objective is what it boils down to for me.
I’ll be voting ’no’ firmly of the opinion that it won’t mean a thing, which breaks my heart, it really does. Kirkby here we come...
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1 Posted 20/07/2007 at 07:42:36
Just a quick point to make and that is Wyness does say a ’world class stadium comparable with anything in the premiership’ in the video on OS.
I personally dont think you can get a world class facility for 75 - 95 million either but it will be a damm site better than GP and a dam site better than anything we could buy for our reported contribution of £20m - £25m.
Something else to consier is the amount of debt clubs like Liverpool Arsenal ands Utd have gotten themselves into lately. Arsenal £600m Utd £800m and Liverpool £500m (after stadium costs). Which is all well and good when the sky money is sloshing around and CL but what happens when thre bubble bursts (and it will) or when you stop winning. Everton are going to be set up pretty well for the future regardless of outside events with a new stadium and training facilities and a moderate debt. And whatever you think of BK and Bully you have to admit that if they deliver the above scenario it has been a good bit of business.
Like you I believe that we as fathers will always generate the next generation of blues and while our new stadium may not be the best in the world it will be the best we can achieve and it will be ours and not some foriegn bank’s.