We?re moving to Kirkby and those who still believe the vote will make the slightest bit of difference to that are sadly pissing against the wind. There may well be a sizeable number, even a majority, of fans that will vote ?no? but looking at the surveys and based on the posts to this and other sites, for every post supporting the move there is counter post rejecting it so, with the undecided having to make a decision, I would guess it will probably only be around 60-40 one way or the other. Not enough to dissuade, not that I believe it would anyway, our ?guardians?.
One thing that is really annoying me is the number, (majority), of posts from the pro-Kirkby contingent who ?accuse? the ?Kirkby Resistance? as saying ?no? based purely on an emotional attachment to GP.
I assume that the majority of posters read TW and other sites on a regular basis, sometimes I wonder, and, in my experience of it/them, the majority of fans ?resisting? the ?Deal of the Century?, although wishing a redeveloped GP was an option, are intelligent enough to understand that this is very unlikely and a move to a new stadium is essential but, it?s where we move to that causes concern.
Let?s look at the reasons many cite as why ?no? must be the vote.
Doesn?t feel right ? No it doesn?t, but I suppose you could say any move would be strange. Moving the Pier Head to Otterspool wouldn?t feel right, you?d still get the ferry there but?Or maybe this ?gut feeling? is linked to something mentioned further down the page (if you can be arsed reading that far)?
Erosion of fanbase ? The safeguarding of future fans I believe to be in our hands, not the club?s, if we do as we have always done, as our fathers did, (my family are RS by the way, ?born not manufactured?), then it?s arguable that we should continue unabated.
History ? Can?t be changed it?s there, it?s done, nothing can take it away from us.
Tradition ? Bit trickier, we can still have a Toffee Lady, still wear the same colours, I?m sure we?ll find some decent pubs with EFC persuasions for pre and post match discussions, we will still have the fans currently occupying the Lower Gwladys trying to break the world?s fastest football chant record but one of our biggest ?traditions? is striving to live up to our motto and this is where some concerns lie over Kirkby. I have seen pro Kirkby posts using the terms, ?state of the art?, ?stadium to be proud of?. Now I don?t profess to have knowledge of construction costs but a ?£75m? stadium doesn?t go hand in hand with labels which, surprisingly, the PR machine of EFC, whose job it is to convince/assure us that the biggest and most controversial decision in living memory of our club is the right one, have chosen to stay clear of.
Trust ? Now this to me is the biggy. Those in favour suggest that we should trust the board to do what?s right for the club, oh how I wish. To trust them on this decision you would first have to already trust in them and, in my mind, this is the whole crux of the problem. We are asked to trust people who have continually been very secretive about just about everything, people who, yes, before the ?BK is a True Blue? brigade respond, bought out PJ, (after sitting quietly on the board while it was all going on), people who have lied over investment, FSF, to maintain their position when under threat, (i.e. for personal benefit), have made phoney bids for players, Owen, and then failed to tell us where the money went afterwards, people who say they have no other alternatives BEFORE they sit down with LCC.
Don?t get me wrong, as some people may remember, I am not a big fan of Warren Bradley at all and believe his council to be contributory to this whole sorry situation, (and I don?t believe he has any alternatives that include viable financial partners), but the fact remains that Bradley himself admitted he hadn?t even met BK until Christmas AFTER he was ?tipped off? that EFC were talking to Knowsley. If this is the case when did BK actually explore all opportunities with the council to enable them to make comparisons and end up with Kirkby as the best option? Was the very strong link with Leahy, who is a big supporter of BK, an advisor to the club, who stands to gain personally from the deal, (more outlets, more turnover, more profits, bigger bonus), and would know exactly which buttons to push for the desired response, the reason we didn?t even consider a plan B? Tesco will have identified the site in Kirkby a long time before any exclusivity period began, and would have been aware of the criteria needed by KMB to get permission to build, so did BK not ?renew? discussions with the council, who had had a change of leadership since the last cock up, because Tel had already tipped him the wink? Conspiracy theories I know but the question still remains unanswered.
I can tell you now that I was pro move but undecided on Kirkby as the location as I was awaiting the finer details to see ?what we were getting?. After Wyness? comments this week I am now, for what it?s worth, decided on ?no? and it has absolutely nothing to do with emotional attachments to GP, (and I live 50 yards from it), or for that matter the city boundary.
The change of stance on the fan?s vote, the lack of a basic business requirement, (a contingency plan), the carefully worded statement, (all the quantifiable parts of the deal were vague in content , ?more or less debt free? implies debt free but actually means no additional debt, as his reference to Arsenal indicates, ?nice stadium?, no mention of the phrases used by our pro Kirkby fans, whereas the non so quantifiable were very specific, ?extra(?!) £10m for players each season?), these all tell my head, not my heart, that all is not as black and white as it seems and, on lesser decisions, if I trusted someone, I would probably take the risk and go with it but a decision of this magnitude requires 100% honesty and clarity for me to follow, (it?s not like moving house and then finding out your neighbours are crap so you move back is it?), something in very short supply from this board.
I can?t help but think, (note, think) that this deal is made to suit the board and their ?friends? in the knowledge that, no matter what, we will still turn up in our droves which will more than likely mean more income but would we be maximising the long term income potential by moving out of the city? Who knows at this stage, but I would like to make my decision content in the knowledge that all this has been looked at, preferably by an independent body, that all options have been explored and judged on their merit and all the findings made public. If this is the ?Deal of the Century? then the club has nothing to lose and everything to gain by doing this as they will show the ?dissenters? once and for all that they can be trusted with the future of OUR club.
So please, ?yes? men, have your vote for whatever reasons you believe to be correct, trust in the board by all means, you?ll be getting your choice anyway, but do not dismiss those of us who choose to question where there is no clarity by suggesting we are merely emotional, short sighted idiots. It takes a lot more thought to question the CEO?s ?deal? than it does to merely quote it.
How many times have you heard the phrase ?If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is?.
I hope I?m wrong and you?re right, I really, really do.
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1 Posted 20/07/2007 at 07:42:36
Just a quick point to make and that is Wyness does say a ’world class stadium comparable with anything in the premiership’ in the video on OS.
I personally dont think you can get a world class facility for 75 - 95 million either but it will be a damm site better than GP and a dam site better than anything we could buy for our reported contribution of £20m - £25m.
Something else to consier is the amount of debt clubs like Liverpool Arsenal ands Utd have gotten themselves into lately. Arsenal £600m Utd £800m and Liverpool £500m (after stadium costs). Which is all well and good when the sky money is sloshing around and CL but what happens when thre bubble bursts (and it will) or when you stop winning. Everton are going to be set up pretty well for the future regardless of outside events with a new stadium and training facilities and a moderate debt. And whatever you think of BK and Bully you have to admit that if they deliver the above scenario it has been a good bit of business.
Like you I believe that we as fathers will always generate the next generation of blues and while our new stadium may not be the best in the world it will be the best we can achieve and it will be ours and not some foriegn bank’s.
2 Posted 20/07/2007 at 08:07:49
Head not heart, mate,is why this cynical old Evertonian will be voting ’YES’.
3 Posted 20/07/2007 at 08:26:45
Is it too much to ask the board to act professionally for once on what could be the most crucial moment in our history? I think not.
We all know that we are unlikely to be worse off by moving to Kirkby but the least the board owe us is to make absolutely sure there isn’t a better gravy train to jump on. If they did and Kirkby came out on top for short and, the more important, long term, then I, and I’m sure many others, would be a resounding ’yes’.
For one thing, talking to LCC and them not being able to come up with a better alternative will stop a lot of doubt as I’m sure LCC will forever say ’We’re sure we could have come up with a viable option for EFC to stay in the city but they wouldn’t talk to us’ and ’no’s’ will forever hang that question over BK’s head and drive the wedge deeper.
Only time will ever tell if it’s a good piece of business won’t it?
Oh, If Bully did say ’world class stadium comparable with anything in the PL’, comparable with Old Trafford, Emirates, City of Manchester, for £75m? (Ricoh £68m wasn’t it?). I’m sure the drawings will make it look great but even you are questioning the reality. Trust? I rest my case.
4 Posted 20/07/2007 at 09:04:35
5 Posted 20/07/2007 at 09:38:52
6 Posted 20/07/2007 at 09:31:15
One opportunity we’ve got to make sure it’s right for the long term future of the club, as I said, too much to ask?
7 Posted 20/07/2007 at 10:22:24
8 Posted 20/07/2007 at 10:35:00
9 Posted 20/07/2007 at 11:05:25
10 Posted 20/07/2007 at 10:37:14
11 Posted 20/07/2007 at 11:18:38
12 Posted 20/07/2007 at 11:50:51
13 Posted 20/07/2007 at 11:57:24
Whilst I don’t think Kirkby would be any evertonians first or second choice location, you can’t hide from the fact this represents an excellent opportunity to turn around the finacial well being of the club.
It’s a difficult decision to make and we still don’t have all the facts, but I believe, it’s far easier to say "no" and hide behind blaming the club for a lack of options, than it is say "yes" and accept change and reality for what it is and to grab what is in the best interests for the whole club - not just those who live within the city boundary themselves.
P.S I think the new staduium pictures look great!!
14 Posted 20/07/2007 at 12:31:30
If you read my post, I’m pretty sure I am saying that BK hasn’t even checked to see what options are available, big, big difference. Didn’t say Kirkby wasn’t the best deal because, I don’t know and the point is that BK doesn’t know either.
The club want us to go to Kirkby without even making the effort to show us that they’ve tried everything possible to find land and financial partners to keep us in the city and failed to get the right deal. As I keep saying, is it asking too much to put all this mistrust to rest once and for all?
15 Posted 20/07/2007 at 13:18:01
16 Posted 20/07/2007 at 13:47:56
17 Posted 20/07/2007 at 13:55:15
I maybe wrong but I imagine the ’stands’ cost 75m and everything else make sit up to the full amount.
I believe this wa sbecause everyone was moaning saying "it will only cost 75m’ without even seeing it first.
Its like saying "that Arteta, only cost 1.8m, fook off, I want Reo-Coker for 8.5m instead".
18 Posted 20/07/2007 at 14:22:52
The images provided thus far remind me of a kit stadium in the mould of Derby, Boro, Southampton, hardly inspiring.As for the sign declaring the peoples club, that just adds insult to injury. The policy of the club on the whole debate has been patronising and they have about as transparent as crude oil.
19 Posted 20/07/2007 at 15:00:42
That’s one hell of a gamble you’d be wanting the club to take, in my mind anyway.
20 Posted 20/07/2007 at 15:32:20
21 Posted 20/07/2007 at 16:39:18
Steve, I believe you wrote that in your first response. That’s what I was referring to, and that’s what I feel is a gamble as it may or may not come about. If I misread that, I apologize, but I don’t think I did
22 Posted 20/07/2007 at 16:45:44
23 Posted 20/07/2007 at 17:28:45
The exclusivity period is to use up time, other businesses would be open to different proposals at the same time so they could compare and even play them off against each other. We purposely leave ourselves open to one option and then rush through a ’vote’. It may end up to be the right choice but the way it is being handled smells very fishy to me. Once it’s done, it’s done so, no going back.
24 Posted 20/07/2007 at 17:45:27
No, I don’t trust the board but you can’t blame the board for not trusting LCC either, when they "give" Stanley Park to the RS and support use of Redevelopment funds (Euro community hand outs, I believe) for their stadium, and yet won’t "give" 50 mill to EFC.
Erosion of fanbase:
My guess is scouse kids will still support EFC outside the city IF we remain in the Premiership, less likely if we stay in the city as a Championship team.
Easy solution(!). Next local govt reorganization,we push to extend the city boundary.
25 Posted 20/07/2007 at 16:05:24
Everything is about supply and demand.
A stadium in LIverpool has to be much more attractive to Investors, sponsors,corporate marketeers etc.
WHY? - because population, infrastructure, City of culture , ETC etc.
Would BK prefer to put one of his shows on In Kirkby no theatre or in the City of Culture.
Wake up guys this deal is to line some pockets and protect BK’s ownership not to develop the legend that was Everton pre BK.
26 Posted 20/07/2007 at 19:21:21
27 Posted 20/07/2007 at 20:20:09
BK bought this club when we were desperate for a change and things have got better regardless of the setbacks. At every turn he seems he feels he has to answer his critics as if he wants are acceptance when in truth his position should not allow this. This is his only mistake because the vast majority if not all is rubbish based on her say and emotion. A move is the only way forward for EFC and this has been known as long as I have being going, and to be honest this has been the only viable option thrown up in over 20 years of watching the blues.
Liverpool CC never wanted city center football so forget the Kings Dock as an argument.
28 Posted 20/07/2007 at 21:14:56
We are moving and just to make sure the vote goes their way. KW and BK will suddenly produce the cash to buy a star player thats been lacking the last few months. That would sweeten the pot so to speak.
29 Posted 20/07/2007 at 21:01:16
Looking at it from the other side, moving to kirkby does sound like it IS going to happen, and if they arent talking BS then it does generate a more healhy revenue for us, and put us in better sted for the future. its deffinately a competition between our heads and our hearts on this one. finiancially it makes sense, and it is only 4.5 miles away (Roger Bannister could have ran that in 18 minutes).
But it will be a very sad day to see us leave our city, afterall we introduced the game to the city, we were here first, and i really hope in 10 years we can turn round and give LCC the finger and have the finances, support and credit we deserve. all this said i think ii will be voting ’YES’ for moving to kirkby, but with a heavy heart.
30 Posted 20/07/2007 at 22:47:14
No no it isn’t. Let’s be honest L4 is a bit of a hole with rubbish transport links. Ask yourself why an area so close to heart of formerly one of the greatest cities in the world looks so bad. If it’s so attractive why aren’t people investing in Everton there?
Besides which the new ground is a part of greater Liverpool to anyone but the most wool baiting scouser.
Personally I think it’s a great deal and no I’m not related Wyness.
31 Posted 20/07/2007 at 22:59:26
32 Posted 20/07/2007 at 23:20:19
I have heard fans say that Bill Kenwright has steered us away from the Dark days of Agent Johnson. What a crock of s*$t. The only people who deserve credit for where we are today are the fans, the players and Davey Moyes.
The board have shown me nothing during the Kenwright tenure. It makes me mad to see statements like Wynesses this week. It is all about benefits to the board not the fans. Before everyone jumps down my throat by saying we will be getting a new ground and not much debt blah blah, look at the record of these people in charge. We hear nothing from them for 90% of the season while we continue to spend suporting our beloved blues, they appear only to try and grab some of the limelight from Moyes whe we produce a result.
It absolutely stinks from top to bottom, I just want to know facts and they aint forth coming.
If this Kirkby thing does fall through, I think it might be interesting to see what happens with the board. It could finally see off some of the time wasters only there for personal gain.
If I trusted this board, and all options explored were not good enough for Evertons long term development then I would be behind the board completely on this, but it is clearly not the clubs interests in my opinion. They say this stadium will be built in 3 years....just in time for a nice retirement £££££ package for Mr Wyness and Kenwright? Alledgedly of course
33 Posted 20/07/2007 at 23:31:14
34 Posted 21/07/2007 at 00:34:11
I am 45 years a blue and i will follow them to kirby or anywhere else.
35 Posted 21/07/2007 at 00:58:11
36 Posted 21/07/2007 at 01:11:51
37 Posted 21/07/2007 at 01:46:43
38 Posted 21/07/2007 at 01:36:21
39 Posted 21/07/2007 at 05:05:32
40 Posted 21/07/2007 at 06:25:08
41 Posted 21/07/2007 at 09:11:13
42 Posted 21/07/2007 at 09:31:43
43 Posted 21/07/2007 at 11:02:10
Basically what i’m saying is you can’t create an atmosphere in the ground without one on the outside.
I can imagine it becoming like Bolton’s built on a retail park and everyone going shopping and spread out before the game and no decent pubs for miles, then you get in the ground and all game all the home fans do is cheer along to some tit with a drum, and its s***e!
44 Posted 21/07/2007 at 11:49:16
Being in love with a footbal club is basicaly illogical and my opposition to going to Kirkby is essentially the same. The club think that we will blindly folow them. Well I won’t. I’m already sick and tired of being taken for granted. I am of less importance to the club than hte Sky money. I’m fed up of games being moved willy nilly for the sake of TV. The etra bit of travel to Kirkby may as well as be a million miles. It’s too much for me. I shan’t be going. Just one more reason not to have a season ticket.
45 Posted 21/07/2007 at 12:15:05
It will still always be Everton..and if you really are an Evertonian..well , I,ll see you there.
46 Posted 21/07/2007 at 15:56:19
47 Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:12:28
48 Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:00:27
GP will very soon be just a beautiful memory,this is fact,but surely even the most pro-kirkby blues want to be absolutely certain that this is the very best deal on offer. our club is in very real danger of being split in two, that would break all of our hearts. The board can easily prevent this, by merely looking at all the other options.
Why the reluctance if they’re so sure they’re right ?
We would all love to stay in the city, I really, really, dont want to go to Kirkby, but if all possibilies had been explored and it turned out to still be the best deal on the table - for the club - then I suspect there would be no need to even have a vote, I and thousands of others will stop agonising and simply follow
49 Posted 21/07/2007 at 18:34:44
50 Posted 21/07/2007 at 21:47:00
51 Posted 21/07/2007 at 11:20:51
It’s good to see that Warren Bradley has finally come out fighting on the GP move, as witnessed in yesterday’s Post. About bloody time Wozza!
I agree that BK should step aside, as David Moores wisely did across the park, and that we look like we’re getting an out-of-town shed to replace GP.
My view is that we are being forced into a move to Tesco Town by a board that no-one trusts, and a ’partner’ whose motives are questionable.
BK appears to be achieving the impossible - he gets to keep his shares, put no money of his own in (he doesn’t have any) and pull of an almost debt-free move to a new stadium. There’s no such thing as a free lunch though, is there?
Unfortunately, this all benefits BK and not EFC. The fans will be around long after Tesco Town is built, and long after BK and KW are gone.
Will future generations of EFC fans look on a Kirby shed with the same affection as we have for GP today? I doubt it. Will the fans still turn up in the same numbers and park in the EFC car park, drink EFC beer all day and buy EFC goodies at every home game? Maybe not.
Will the supposed extra revenue (of which there is no guarantee) transform our on-field performances? I doubt it.
Apart from death and taxes, I can think of two more certainties at the moment: the board won’t be bound by a ’no’ vote, no matter how overwhelming (the fans are not shareholders after all), and Tesco would not have committed the time and money that they have spent so far unless they were 100% sure of the outcome.
The claim that there are no serious external investors is unproven - BK would have to stand aside for this to happen. I don’t believe that the merchant banks couldn’t find an investor in one of England’s most historic and successful clubs, so long as there was real appetite to stand aside form the majority shareholding bloc headed by BK.
The claim that there are no suitable sites in the city is unproven. Yes, they may all have ’issues’ associated with them, but so does Tesco Town.
The claim that we won’t be able to use GP for much longer is unproven. This is scaremongering.
The claim that we can’t re-develop GP is a sham. I’ll believe it when Lord Rogers says so.
Extra corporate and ticket revenue from a new stadium is unproven. What makes Tesco Town more attractive to corporates than L4?
How much difference can an ’up to £10m per year’ extra for players really make? Maybe a lot. Maybe none. Risking the entire future of EFC on a potentially ill-founded move in chase of this objective is what it boils down to for me.
I’ll be voting ’no’ firmly of the opinion that it won’t mean a thing, which breaks my heart, it really does. Kirkby here we come...
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