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A Truly Incredible, Unbelievable Game

By Michael Kenrick :  05/02/2011 :  Comments (183) :

Goodison Park welcomed back James Beattie, who had been drafted in to the Blackpool team over the January transfer window, but his team arrived on a poor run of eight consecutive defeats. Everton were unchanged despite the return of leading scorer Tim Cahill after missing six Everton games at a crucial stage of the season due to the ridiculously timed Asian Cup that his Socceroos ultimately failed to win.

It was a very bright start for Everton, creating numerous chances in the early stages, with Heitinga, Rodwell, Distin and Fellaini all going close. A superb move down the left and a brilliant shimmy by Bily allowed him to pick out Louis Saha near the penalty spot and it was a glorious chance the Frenchman could not miss, a clinical finish to set the Blues hopefully on their way after 20 mins.

Rodwelll looked to benefit from an awful Blackpool throw-in, skipping into the Blackpool area and flicking the ball up stylishly over a defender for a shot but then completley miss-kicking as the goal gaped. A sweeping move let Coleman release Saha who returned the favour down the right as Everton looked to attack the nervy Blackpool defence, but it only won a corner.

Billy played a lovely littled chipped ball forward to Saha but the Frenchman could not control it and was crowded out. A bad bounce at the other end rolled off Distin's arm and was deemed handball but the wall did enough to block Adam's kick; however, from the corner, Abbot clipped the ball onto the post, from where it ran behind Howard along the line to Baines on the far post, who had a simple task to clear but clipped the ball at the incoming Baptiste and it rebounded into the net. Nothing is ever simple with Everton!

But Everton deservedly went ahead through Saha moments later when Coleman fought his way past Carney and pushed the ball into Saha who clipped it beautifully just inside the post but Referee Kevin Friend had decided Carney's attentions on Coleman merited a free-kick to Everton, calling the game back and criminally not playing a clear advantage after Carney had grappled Coleman, much to the huge frustration of crowd, players... everyone. Baines put the free-kick woefully high to add insult to injury.

Another beautifully crafted piece of football involving Baines and Bily down the left was well worthy of a goal but there was no-one on the far post to benefit from Bily's exquisite chip. Half-time and massive jeers for another useless referee.

Some simple beautiful football after the break, an incisive pass from deep by the excellent Rodwell to release Baines, who's cross was perfectly weighted for Saha to walk the ball into the Gwladys Street net for an excellent second goal, that should have been his hat-trick. Bily should have done better a few minutes later when a lovely touch on by Saha set him up but he could not lift it past Rachubka. Baines then shot wide.

Blackpool had a spell of free-kicks and corners as they attacked and tried to get Beattie in for the equalizer, with Puncheon running in dangerously from the right, but the Blues defence held firm and Saha won a free-kick that was taken quickly and got Rodwell in a superb position but his deft clip bobbled the wrong side of the post.

A dreadful piece of play from Everton eventually allowed Blackpool back into it. Coleman at fault for playing the ball back slopppily; Heitinga at fault for a feeble challenge, and from there it was Keystone Cops stuff that saw Beattie's cross converted on the far side by Puncheon. At the other end, a great Fellaini shot was cleared off the line. With a third of the game left, this surely could not end as another draw? No, said, Blackpool, who broke at speed and tore through the Everton 'defence', Puncheon smashing his shot off the bar and there was Adam to head the rebound into the empty net. Everton 2 - 3 Blackpool!!!

Another beautiful Everton move looked to be finished with Fellaini scoring but Baines had overun it and gotten himself offside.

An amazing moment when Rachubka tried to dribble out of his area, Rodwell got the ball and lobbed a perfect shot over the stranded goalkeeper that was all but in the back of the net until Evatt made an absolutely incredible recovery to scoop the ball away off the line for a corner as he ended up a crumpled heap in the corner of the Blackpool net.

Everton had played some of their absolutey most absorbing football in ages, yet were behind, and the all-too frequently dithering Moyes acted decisively for once, make some crucial changes: Cahill and Beckford on for Bily and Rodwell ? two of the players who had played key contributions to Everton's excellent display, but who arguably tend to fade. A huge gamble by Moyes in any event... Holloway swapped out Puncheon for Keith Edwards, a former member of the Everton Youth Academy.

Everton piled on the pressure, and a sequence of corners saw Louis Saha finally get his hat-trick, in lots of space at the far post, benefitting from the presence of Beckford causing havoc in fornt of him. 3-3 and everything to play for... a tremendous atmosphere and a tremendous game of football at Goodison Park.

Arteta overplayed a throughball that should have put Fellaini in on goal, but the go-ahead goal did come, and what a fantastic, fantastic finish to a brilliant ball from Baines it was, a beautifully deft touch By Beckford beating defender and goalkeeper to direct it past Rabchka, to the sheer dellierium of the Goodison faithful. 4-3, and an Everton game for once truly worthy of the adjectives "incredilble, unbelievable".

Blackpool pushed back, but Fellaini released Saha and the star man had a determined and pacey run-in on goal and a brilliant finish with the outside of his foot to make it five. Fantastic stuff. Four goals for Saha was enough for David Moyes, who pulled him off to tremendous adulation. Everton played out only their fourth home win of the season, a truly incredible, unbelievable game!!!

Reader Comments

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Max Main
1   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:06:16

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Good report, MK. Best game I've seen in a long time. Crazy day in the prem.

Well done, Blues.
Karl Masters
2   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:05:03

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My, my! What a thin line there is between success and failure....something some of the less tolerant on here people ought to remember.
Karl Masters
3   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:09:19

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No game in the Premier League ie easy and nothing should ever be taken for granted. Just ask Arsenal!
Joe McMahon
4   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:09:50

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Hopefully, we can push on a little to maybe finish around 10th. The Subs were right and worked, This is our first win over a promoted team this season- i'm hoping some confidence is gained. It feels good to win doesn't it!
Ernie Baywood
5   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:06:55

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Had a feeling that we would knock a few home today and so it proved. Blackpool were exactly the oppoition we needed. They come at you like a top team would, but they can't defend to that level.

There should be some concern about 2 of the goals conceded (first one was just a fluke) with Distin choosing the dragback for the 2nd and Heitinga out of character for the 3rd. If I'm being generous I'd say that both were showing the sort of confidence we're asking for - choosing to retain the ball and attack rather than simply lump it to be safe.

So that's Saha at his best?!!! Fellaini was exceptional, and hopefully Bily and Baines can kick on from there as they really started to understand what the other was doing. Even simple things like Bily dragging the fullback inside to leave room for Baines.

Very enjoyable! We've deserved a win like that!
Ajay Gopal
6   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:10:06

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Thought I would never say this of a David Moyes team ? "Classy strikers rescue shit defending"!! :-)
James Bernard
7   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:13:34

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I have never really been a fan of Newcastle but that result against Arsenal was beautiful. Wenger had a cheek to mouth off against Moyes when Wenger is the biggest moaner the Prem has ever seen. I fully expect there to be more moaning after this latest result.
Ian Hessey
8   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:12:32

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Great rollercoaster of a game. Finally we bag 3 pts and breath a little easier!
John Nelson
9   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:13:11

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Fucking brilliant blues - well done!
Alan Khan
10   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:20:12

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What a day!!! KIng Louis reigns supreme. Decent performances but the leaky defense is still concerning. However, today is a day to celebrate a famous win. Well done you Blues.... and Moyes too!!!
Seamus McCrudden
11   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:22:26

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Michael have to laugh, your grammar/ typos at times are totally indicative of the roller coaster ride we all just endured, absolutely brilliant!
Jamie Tulacz
12   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:21:11

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Ajay that just about sums things up!

Great character shown by the lads when we were 3-2 down. Especially with the injustice of our disallowed goal which could have been allowed to affect our performance.

Great to see Saha finally hitting some form ? vindicates Moyes sticking with him when out of form. Definitely the best game I've seen from Bily in a blue shirt, hopefully he's finally starting to settle down and make the left his own. Big Fella brilliant as always.
Michael Coville
13   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:21:46

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Great result, I will be able to watch the game tonight with my RS supporting brother-in-law who is coming in from the UK tonight. Hopefully the Laby Boy will score tomorrow to make my weekend.
David Booth
14   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:25:16

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Karl (2 & 3): points well made.

I still believe we're on the threshold of something positive and, despite our frustrating lack of progress so far, have much to look forward to and many positives to anticipate.

However, we'll doubtless check back later and find all the usual suspects moaning about conceding three, taking Rodwell & Bily off, not bringing subs on earlier, it was 'only' Blackpool etc etc etc.

Anyway, while there's still an optimistic tone prevailing, has anyone noticed that Beckford is quite a good finisher?

Virtually every goal he's scored (including a great header in the pre-season friendly against Everton Chile), has bordered on the spectacular. If he starts scoring taps-ins too, what an acquisition he will prove to be.

For all that David Moyes is lambasted by some on here (although not many off here), his talent for sniffing out a bargain is verging on legendary.

COYB!
James Martin
15   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:27:38

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Fellaini was brilliant? Offensively he was good but you don't have a brilliant game as defensive mid if you've conceded 3 goals. He doesn't track anything, there's a horrible balance in that midfield at the moment and for Blackpool's third neither him nor Arteta could be bothered to get back. Yeah, he played alright, a decent performance but not brilliant by any means.

The strikers rescued what was a bad defensive performance. Still it's nice to win for a change. Wonder what the hype over Suarez would have been like if he'd had even one of those finishes the other night, never mind his near open goal miss, would never have heard the end of it.

KPR Williams
16   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:34:54

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Ultra-attacking Holloway brings two attackers off when in a very fortunate lead and ends up getting twatted off the park... Don't let me ever hear anybody put this man's name forward as an Everton manager again...
Martin Mason
17   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:37:59

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A really great win regardless of it only being Blackpool. Happy for Saha and Bily. Unhappy that Fellaini is a beacon for the top clubs, he really is that good now. Perhaps we're destined to see him go to release funds for the rebuild that we badly need.
Leon Perrin
18   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:40:33

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Martin

He'll go to pay the mortgages not a rebuild.
Rory Slingo
19   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:33:03

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I, for one, could care less about conceding three ? the best form of defense is to score more than them which is what the boys did today and I'm proud of them! Yes, there's still room to tighten up at the back for sure, but they need to keep creating those chances up front!

Credit to DM for not throwing Jags on too early today. I thought he got the subs right on. Bily finally looks to be settling in on the left and Felli is looking more and more to be worth that £15M, I just hope we can keep him over the summer.
John Audsley
20   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:44:13

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Dont kow about you lot but I'm fuckin knackered after that!

Great to see the strikers score 5 and even better to be able to tell my oldest boy (4) that we scored 5 today.
Iain Love
21   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:40:34

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Talking to another blue last night i said we need to play 4-4-2 against Blackpool with Cahill on the bench, how right i was . It was always going to be an exciting game against Blackpool with goals galore and i enjoyed the game even as a Blue.
Great game lets kick on win our next game we could be 8th.
David Hallwood
22   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:49:11

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What a weird game! 1st half it looked like it would be 4 or 5 nil, then it was 2-3, then the party began, I'm going for a blood pressure test on Monday, so I could've done without it. Seriously a better team would've come away with all 3 pts, we are going to have to get back to clean sheets, if every game this season is a 1-0 win that's been ground out, that'll do for me
Matteo Rosingana
23   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:02:59

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Beckford finished well but his touch was otherwise poor, he seems to always have to make up ground cos of a poor first touch. Saha's was the best performance by a striker I've seen all season. He was hungry for it today, great to see.
Jamie Barlow
24   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:54:22

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Did we play 442 today?
Jon Cox
25   Posted 05/02/2011 at 17:59:37

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Moyes seemed to have that killer instinct today and got his subs just right.

Would it be possible for Moyes to have a spat with Wenger every week.

I think this is what caused the inspiration we saw today.

More of the same please.
Martin Mason
26   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:07:02

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Leon, unfortunately I believe you are correct. He's fast becoming a real favourite though and I'd hope he'll stay(whilst fearing the worst)

Matteo, Berbatov's 5 for United vs Blackburn were also good but he cost 30MM. Saha is a real gem though and if he can just stay fit.
Dominic Bobadilla
27   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:18:26

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Many upbeat Evertonians here. Seriously: our opponents were Blackpool and not Barcelona. Let Bily start every remaining game of the season and we shall slowly get over the loss of Peanuts.
Gavin Ramejkis
28   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:23:33

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Back from the game and have to agree that some great finishing paid for some pretty poor defensive errors, an enjoyable game to watch and on Radio Merseyside DM said the referee had already admitted denying Saha's goal was a mistake and had apologised.

Wonder if Arsehole Whinger saw those four Newcastle goals as he seems to have a problem missing the obvious.
Matthew Salem
29   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:05:51

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What a crazy game and what a crazy table. We can still easily make Europe with some luck and with a bit of misfortunae get relegated. Insane.
Ste Traverse
30   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:26:03

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I've never seen a game like that in years. Open,end to end stuff and both defences were shite so that just added to it.

Blackpool deserve huge credit for the way they have a go at teams and I hope they stay up. The more North West teams in the Premier League the better.

Our extra class told in the end and I thought Fellaini was our best player, despite Louis 4 goals.
John Talbot
31   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:33:24

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Just how good was Fellaini... brilliant!!!
Gavin Ramejkis
32   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:33:12

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I heard on the radio that today was Saha's first hat-trick in the EPL ? anyone confirm this?
Milos Milenkovic
33   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:20:15

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Fantastic game! Surely, one of the best Everton games in last 20 years.

While Saha is going to get all the headlines deservedly, but my impression is that Beckford was crucial to our win. He is a great prospect, always dangerous and always under pressure to produce. He came from the third division and he should be given a chance to show his ability. Moyes's treatment could have ruined his confidence, but he is still producing excellent performances every time he enters the pitch. He needs trust from his Manager and he will be a great player.

Guy Hastings
34   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:21:25

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Dominic (#27) ? agree with you 100% on Bily who may (does) lack pace but has superior technique and vision to Pienaar. He may even be able to last 80 minutes by the start of next season.
Roman Sidey
35   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:35:34

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David Booth
I am one of Moyes' biggest doubters on here, but I'll give him credit for today. He got it right.

Concerns definitely about the defence, and why we went to sleep when up 2-1 (a score I never thought would win it), but as someone has already pointed out, it doesn't matter how many you concede as long as you score more!

The usual applies ? why can't Moyes get his tactics right more often ? but today isn't the day to bring it all up. I, for one, am just enjoying it for the day. My mate is a city fan and keeps talking up Tevez. I have one word for him today ? Saha!
Matthew Salem
36   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:41:26

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Gavin @32, remember 2-3 seasons ago when we beat West Ham 3-1 after being 0-1 down most of the game? Didn't Saha score all 3 there?
Jon Cox
37   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:42:01

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Saha was awsome today but the best goal was Beckford's. Sheer poetry.
Kunal Desai
38   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:53:13

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I can confirm that it was Saha's first ever hat-trick. A couple of braces in the past for Man.Utd.

The game against Westham i'm pretty sure Saha got two and the other was by Yobo.
Denis Richardson
39   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:52:46

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Gutted I missed the game, sounds/reads like a screamer. Great to get the 3 points and bag full of goals for the strikers.

Who said Saha was finished?? Just needed more bloody support up front to get the best out of him. Thank fook for the points as it's getting really tasty at the bottom... come on, Wolves!!!
Ryan Holroyd
40   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:50:41

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It was Saha's 1st treble. Before today he has scored 8 doubles without getting a 3rd.

Ray Robinson
41   Posted 05/02/2011 at 18:47:31

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Matthew #36, Saha gty two in that game. Lescott got the other. Fantastic game today for which Blackpool deserve great credit. This game and the Spurs match have restored my faith in football.

One negative. I will personally drive Heitinga back to Holland after that wussy tackle that led to Blackpool's second goal. Hard man? Don't make me laugh! Jags back next week.
Mike Green
42   Posted 05/02/2011 at 19:33:42

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Fingers crossed today was a watershed moment for us today.

WELL DONE BOYS!!!!

A learning experience for me:

a) We need to score 5 and win by a 2 goal margin for Michael Kenrick to write a positive report about us. Good read though Michael.

b) Are you there Ciaran McGlone? Remember our close season debate about our "4th choice striker" (erm..... 2nd choice like I said), doff your cap to him today.

COYB. Brilliant.

And as for Dick Anderson when 3-2 down....! Ho hum.
Simon Jenkins
43   Posted 05/02/2011 at 19:40:39

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Fantastic match today, in many different ways. A good and fair report from Michael too - well done. You can put the 'incredible, unbelievable' stuff to bed now, you've made you're point. Should be pointed out the entire Gwladys Street end was loudly singing Moyes name towards the end of the game. A sign that he is nowhere close to having lost the majority of the Everton fans.
Max Main
44   Posted 05/02/2011 at 19:06:51

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Glad you pointed that out, Ray. I was absolutely livid with Heitinga after that "tackle". Disgraceful.

Awesome goal by Beckford.

How good was that Puncheon lad for Blackpool? Had Baines in knots at one point. And I'll be extremely disappointed in the Blackpool fans if they haven't already nicknamed him "Judy".
Matty Dawkins
45   Posted 05/02/2011 at 19:45:28

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Best attacking performance I've watched in years... Special mention to Bily, he's had some (deserved) stick this season but was excellent today. Someone needs to have a quiet word with Heitinga though, that's twice he's bottled tackles and the opponents have raced upfield and scored.

COYB.
Matteo Rosingana
46   Posted 05/02/2011 at 19:52:10

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Martin, what a short memory I have. Yes Berbatov's performance was great, of course. I was really excited today by Louis, he seemed so fired up, running back to cover, retrieving the ball himself from midfield or out by the touchline, and he could (should? actually did?) have more than 4.
Ian Tunstead
47   Posted 05/02/2011 at 19:46:19

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Great game, and even better not seeing Osman come. Just like I was 100% certain we would lose against Arsenal when we were 1-0 up when Osman jogged onto the field, I was 100% certain we would beat Blackpool when we were 3-2 down and at 3-3 when I knew Osman would not be coming on. It was only a matter of time before we scored 2 or 3.

Simon I agree, there is no way Moyes has lost the majority of Everton fans, I don't know anyone who wants rid of Moyes. It's the loud minority as opposed to the usualy quiet majority who have too much to say and talk a lot of bollocks.
Albert Perkins
48   Posted 05/02/2011 at 20:07:41

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Puncheon above his weight?
Max Main
49   Posted 05/02/2011 at 20:08:28

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Nice, Albert. Very nice.
Jeff Armstrong
50   Posted 05/02/2011 at 19:45:20

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Got to agree with Ray #41, Heitinga was the weak point today, Jags back in his place alongside Distin. We scored 3 goals when Moyes went 4-4-2 late on, at home, to a defensively naive team.

Why does he insist on everybody back for corners? The number of times we clear corners only to see it coming back for a second phase attack is infuriating! An out ball gives the defender something to think about if an attacker is in the vicinity, with no one arround he simply starts another attack via the long ball or if he's any good a simple wide ball. It's not rocket science Moyes.

Why bring Saha off with 12 minutes remaining when he's on fire? let's win 6-3, instead of allowing the opposition to stop worrying about a potent forward and start playing for a possible grandstand finish. Did not happen I know, but why take the chance for the sake of a standing ovation? It's not like he was knackered, he ran the whole defence for his last goal 3 minutes previously!

Just a couple of negatives from an otherwise vital win, and a good effort from most of the team.

Peter Bourke
51   Posted 05/02/2011 at 20:13:21

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@Ian 21.
What game were you watching.
We didn't play 442 until Cahill came on.
How wrong you were.
Peter Bourke
52   Posted 05/02/2011 at 20:15:04

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@James 15.
You can hardly blame Felli for those 3 goals today. He was clearly the best player on the field along with Saha.
Mike Gaynes
53   Posted 05/02/2011 at 19:58:24

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I would change this headline to A Truly Incredible, Unbelievable Day. We'll all remember this day in the Prem for many years to come. 41 goals in eight games, a lifetime game for Saha and a brilliant comeback, Sir Alex loses his unbeaten season at the bottom of the table, and Wenger is on the wrong side of one of the greatest comebacks in history. We could watch this league for another 20 years and not see a day like this again. Savor it.
Mike Green
54   Posted 05/02/2011 at 20:18:29

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Good for you Mike Gaynes :D

COME ON!!!!!!
Mike Green
55   Posted 05/02/2011 at 20:20:46

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As Our KId said:

"MOTD tonight might be a "keeper""

COYB!
Leon Perrin
56   Posted 05/02/2011 at 20:41:08

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Ian

Read it again, the point is about crowds....not Moyes being Hitler.

I might not rate him but even I'd draw the line at calling him a dictator involved in ethnic cleansing.
Leon Marshall
57   Posted 05/02/2011 at 19:40:57

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Ray (#41) ? it was Fellaini who got the other goal that day, not Yobo or Lescott. But great result today... let's kick on from here now and finish the season on a high.
David Moorcroft
58   Posted 05/02/2011 at 21:23:49

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Karl Masters@2 and 57, Great game, great entertainment today. But what happened today has got nothing to do with the way that twat Kenwright is destroying our club. That is what you heard people moaning about. Not the game today.
Eugene Ruane
59   Posted 05/02/2011 at 21:21:00

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Ian you say..

"..Just like I was 100% certain we would lose against Arsenal when we were 1-0 up when Osman jogged onto the field, I was 100% certain we would beat Blackpool when we were 3-2 down".

100%?

WOW!

Ladbrokes must cack themselves when you walk in.

I imagine you probably have to wear false beards and stuff to get a bet on?

By the way, can you be more specific about exactly how much is 'too much' re "the moaners normally have too much to say" or did you just mean it the the usual way (ie: anyone who disagrees with me has too much to say)
Lars Eidissen
60   Posted 05/02/2011 at 21:33:31

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#10 It was an exciting and fun game today. Nice to see us score five goals. And very relieved to shade within probably just one (to go with our numerous draws) win from safety. But famous win? Blackpool at Goodison? That is just sad.

#27 "Slowly get over the loss of Peanuts"?? Yes, we miss his goals and assists so dearly. Oh no? Oh well, then we obviously miss the silent contribution he made to all of the two wins this season he was on the pitch the for (I think he played 16 or 17 for us? With us winning 6 from 24 in total). Overrated mercenary.
Mike Green
61   Posted 05/02/2011 at 21:42:16

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Eugene "I'm allergic to the term 100%" Ruane is in the room!

Wha-hoo!!

100% is 100% Eugene, means rightly or wrongly, convinced. Let it roll.
Ian Tunstead
62   Posted 05/02/2011 at 21:43:09

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I don't gamble Eugene. But the reason I am so confident is because I've seen the outcome so many times when Osman has played on the wings. It's not just me though, there are a lot of people who are aware as well so I am not proclaiming to be a genious.

As for the moaners who complain about Moyes and want rid, none of them can come up with a realistic replacement. Not to mention what his peers think about him who are a lot more clued up than than some of the people who come on here.

I know Moyes isn't perfect which is why I have been moaning myself about him playing Osman but there are a lot more reason why he needs to stay at Everton.
Eugene Ruane
63   Posted 05/02/2011 at 21:53:00

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Mike.

What room?
Mike Green
64   Posted 05/02/2011 at 21:54:31

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The virtual room Eugene. The room we are in with each other.
Eugene Ruane
65   Posted 05/02/2011 at 21:53:55

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Ian, you say..

"none of them can come up with a realistic replacement. Not to mention what his peers think abouit him who are a lot more clued up than than some of the people who come on here"

Sorry but... bollocks.

How EXACTLY are his peers more clued up?

If it's a choice of them (who watch highlights of Everton two or three times a year) and form their opinions based on how liberal Kenwright is with the Champers. Or the Everton-obsessed on TW who watch most games and follow the fortunes of the club EVERY day of their lives, I know who I'll trust.

I say fuck his peers (and fuck the 'experts' like Lawro and Prentice).

We won today and I'm made up... but don't get carried away.

We beat Blackpool... at home... and conceded 3.

(nb: at 3-2, even the Amazing Kreskin couldn't have been sure of the result).

To many like me, right now, almost anyone would appeals more than Moyes. >You say no one can come up with a realistic replacement? Sorry but again, bollocks.

They might not come up with a replacement YOU accept, but if Moyes is your man, you'll certainly find fault in any replacement no matter who people suggest ("Martin Jol? Wanker, Holloway, idiot" etc)

But lists have been printed on TW of alternative managers and some of them I'd have swapped with Moyes in an instant. Not because I think they're all miles better, but because I think Moyes is out of ideas.

I've NEVER slagged 'the man', but I think he lacks imagination and if you offered me a swap for Holloway now, I'd take it, just to freshen the place up (nb: and I think Holloway is a goon)

Peter Warren
66   Posted 05/02/2011 at 22:26:22

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Loved watching Bily today. My god he is so slow it's untrue but a very good footballer.

Fellaini, great as usual, Arteta better than he has been. Saha gives us all hope for Chelsea away.

Distin was poor, but had been steady all season. But Heitinga...... I feel a fool because I thought he was a good player but now realise he is poor and a coward. Jags for me should be playing.

Peter Warren
67   Posted 05/02/2011 at 22:30:04

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Eugene - agree with you - sadly, because I would like Moyes to succeed, he's honest, hard working, determined, I like his demeanour and way he handles the press - but unfortunately, I don't think we are coached to play in a certain style.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I think a lot of people refuse to see Moyes is not right man for us because of his qualities and fact we don't want to turn on someone who we consider one of us, an evertonian
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
68   Posted 05/02/2011 at 22:36:20

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Ian: You are sailing very close to the wind.

This is how it works: Evertonians come on here to share their views and opinions... as do you. If you have no respect for that, then fine. Just let me know, okay, and I can provide a solution.
Dermot Ryan
69   Posted 05/02/2011 at 22:57:53

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So pleased for Saha, Bily, and Beckford. How well did Beckford take his goal?

I thought a load of our players had amazing passages of play: Rodwell, Arteta, Coleman.

We were awful defensively, but I have to say that was the most entertaining Everton match I've seen all season.

We obviously need to work on our defense, but when our winds up we are an absolutely amazing team to watch now. Lots of amazing passing are really inventive stuff.

And I thought Moyes' squad selection and subs were excellent this time.
Nick Entwistle
70   Posted 05/02/2011 at 23:16:12

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Just watched on MotD. Didn't know the score beforehand, though Lineker spoilt it by stating it was going to be a thriller. Why? How does that help? Now I know it's going to be ding dong score line... yawn. Just had to hope the final whistle came when we were leading.

Any who, Bily is playing like he always should have done, and Saha's the man. Lovely.

Andrew James
71   Posted 05/02/2011 at 23:15:30

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Watched it on a stream and just watched MOTD. We MUST keep Fellaini in the summer. We can let Mikkel go because he is one of the older players but if we keep Fellaini, a midfield of him, Rodwell, Billy and Coleman will be one to match any side in the Prem.

However, we do need another striker as King Louis is getting on (he had a wonderful game today but long term we need a striker in their mid 20's) and, judging from today, a centre back. Heitenga was utterly culpable for the second goal, keeps making comments about going elsewhere so sell him for a big fee in the summer.

Pienaar meanwhile started on the bench today. Glad he made his decision to leave based purely on "footballing reasons".
Sam Hoare
72   Posted 05/02/2011 at 23:42:29

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Happy days.

Was going mental with BBC updates when we went 3-2 down! Just seen MOTD Very nice.

Agree with Andrew. Fella is unsellable.

If we need to raise funds let Arteta, Heitinga and maybe even Rodders go if the administrators are closing in but not the big Fella. Please.
Ian Tunstead
73   Posted 05/02/2011 at 23:23:53

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Eugene

I?ll tell you how his peers are more clued up; I?m not talking about Lawro and Prentice, I?m talking about the managers who have voted for him to win the manager of the season award 3 times. The people that do the job on a day to day basis and know what is involved in managing a team at the highest level.

Yes you probably watch a lot more of Everton than they do, but I bet they watch a lot more football than you. What you don?t seem to appreciate is there are other teams up and down the land who have sites just like this. I bet if you look at Man Utd forums SAF is taking a bashing tonight and Wenger and Harry Redknapp after the Fulham game. Does that mean they should be sacked? Or do you look at the bigger picture and think realistically who could do better in the circumstances?

I?ve seen lots of these list over the years of managers and nearly all have had their chance in the prem since and haven?t done much. It was Martinez last season and Holloway this, but time and time again Moyes finishes above them. What has Holloway done exactly? He?s done no better than George Burley with Ipswich a few seasons back when he finished 4th or 5th, A one season wonder. Even Phill Brown was probably doing better at this stage than Holloway with Hull a couple seasons ago until the 2nd part of the season when it went tits up. It looks as though Holloway could be going on a similar run of defeats, but no ? you want to swap him for Moyes.
Jamie Crowley
74   Posted 05/02/2011 at 23:49:10

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I'm in Gainesville, Florida for one of my son's soccer tournaments. We finish our second game of the day and it's 3:45. Just in time to see the 4:00 pm replay on Fox Soccer here in the States. I've "dodged" the score in the chance this might happen....

Off to Mother's Irish Pub in Gainesville and miss the first five minutes but see 90 minutes of one of the most entertaining games I've had the pleasure of viewing.

Just absolutely fantastic! Father and Son off on a weekend of soccer catching the Blues in an absolutely scintilating match....

I live for moments like this.

SAHA!!! WWAAAHOOOO!!!!!

I'm over the moon at the moment!
Ian Tunstead
75   Posted 05/02/2011 at 23:51:27

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Michael I?ve got no idea why you feel the need to get involved, Eugene and i are having a discussion, If somebody has an opinion about Moyes and wants rid that?s fine we can discuss it but if someone has an opinion and wants him to stay you have a problem, seems a bit biased and hypocritical to me.
Jim Lloyd
76   Posted 05/02/2011 at 23:37:58

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Well Michael, I think you got carried away a bit tonight with your report. Yes, there were positive signs but with 20 minutes to go it looked like an absolute disaster was going to occur.

Still, it was an exiting game and some really excellent performances today. Fellaini was magnificent, Saha too. (He gave a great centre forward's display today.) Jack Rodwell played really well, some excellent searching balls from midfield and Seamus Coleman was again full of running and enthusiasm. A great finish to an exiting match and I hope nobody underrates the effect that Beckford had on the outcome. A good day for all Evertonians.

But don't get carried away. "One Swallow" and all that. If we carry on frightening teams to death, then we might be getting somewhere... let's wait and see.

As it is, I'm worried that this game allows that bloody charlatan Kenwright to get on the box with his Cheshire Cat grin and claim some sort of credit for today's display.
IMHO if he doesn't sell this club, we are well and truly fecked.
Good report though! :@)

Martin Faulkner
77   Posted 05/02/2011 at 23:49:52

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Thought Bily played really well today, showed some really good touches and understanding with baines, when he drifted inside though he looked dangerous, played saha in with a sublime ball, also noticed Arteta doing quite well wide left when billy went off.

I'll give Jonny the benefit of the doubt cause I think his class will show through in the end, we look a much better footballing side with him as opposed to Jags (I think Moyes will be having a wee word in his ear about the half hearted tackles)

As already mentioned above the big Fella was immense, as was Saha and Coleman had a good game too.
David Israel
78   Posted 05/02/2011 at 23:20:27

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Being sullenly out on the Continent I couldn't even get a stream today but I've just watched the highlights. The two goals conceded in the 2nd half were awful defending ? gaping holes in midfield ? but our goals were all very good, especially Beckford's and Saha's last one ? what an amazing run! And he didn't even pull a muscle!

Bily is an obviously skillful player but he certainly lacks pace as we all know, but he can make others play, and that's very important You don't win by toil alone.

Heitinga ? oh my! I'm lost for words. Bring back the Jag!
Aiden Doyle
79   Posted 06/02/2011 at 00:46:45

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Heitinga?s mistake for the second goal was pretty poor (though I thought that it was because he was trying to be too clever, rather than due to lack of conviction) but it was no worse than the tangle that Distin got himself in to in the run-up to Blackpool?s third.
Eugene Ruane
80   Posted 06/02/2011 at 01:07:45

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Ian, I explained my reasons as clearly as I could.

I repeat.

"Not because I think they're all miles better, but because I think Moyes is out of ideas. I've NEVER slagged 'the man', but I think he lacks imagination and if you offered me a swap for Holloway now, I'd take it, just to freshen the place up (nb: and I think Holloway is a goon)".

Fresh thinking, fresh ideas and something new is needed.

Moyes has (for the most part) done his best and probably is doing his best and...we're going backwards.

NOTHING you, me, or anyone else says is going to develop imagination in Moyes.

Consequently the (imo) required fresh ideas needed has to come from elsewhere.

I say (as long as it's not Rafa) bring it/him (her?) on.

John Daley
81   Posted 06/02/2011 at 00:44:14

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At 2-3, I was fuming and thinking here we go again. Although Saha was on top of his game today, the introduction of Beckford turned the tide. That was a truly world class finish that deserved to win any game. I admit to being slightly more pleased than usual when ol' stretch-neck scores because I don't believe he's been given a fair crack of the whip and has come in for some unjust criticism from the manager at times this season.

Defensively, we still look as solid as a 76-year-old's erection and Heitinga, despite his distribution and fake fist-pumping passion for the cause, is never going to be the type to truly put his body on the line. I for one will never forget his embarrassing shit me kecks, jump out the way and feign injury cover-up in the first home game of this season v Wolves. Despite his patchy form this season, I'd much rather rely on Jagielka when our backs are against the wall.

Anyway, I'm pished, delighted with the win and the only thing to put a dampener on the occasion was that some deluded fat lass took a shine to me on the train home, started stroking my leg like she was a stunningly seductive temptress irresistible to any man, and shouted at the top of her voice that I was a "gay Everton twat" when I told her I didn't like big birds!

Roman Sidey
82   Posted 06/02/2011 at 00:48:36

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Heitinga had on off game. He is class though. He will be a hero more times than a villain for us. As many who have read my posts before know, I'm stoked that Bily is starting to perform. I think he should have been in our first XI since signing, and he will get his pace back which he had when he was at Locamotiv.

On the Moyes argument, for the people who praise him no matter what he does, tell me if he was who you would have picked when Walter Smith was so awful... Just because we can't all agree on who should take over in place of Moyes does not mean that he should stay. As someone mentioned, it'd be good just to have a change to see if we could kick on to the next level.
Andrew James
83   Posted 06/02/2011 at 01:30:48

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John Daley - you had an interesting night.

But I agree. Get Jags back in. He's more committed, taller and better in the air. Yes, he does hoof it but he never shies from a challenge and is tall enough to get a header in thus allowing Fellaini more space.
Ian Tunstead
84   Posted 06/02/2011 at 01:21:56

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Eugene

You are missing the whole point, there is nothing Moyes, Holloway, Jol, Martinez, Di Matteo, Coyle or anyone else you want to mention could do. Not that they would come to Everton but you could get Mourinho, Wenger and Ferguson in as manager of Everton and they are not going to win the league if they don't have a penny to spend to improve the squad. It doesn't matter how much imagination a manager has, results will not improve so dramatically that we will challenge for the league.

The style of play might change and there might be a short-term response from the players but you can't get blood out of a stone... meaning you won't make Osman turn into Messi because your name is Pep Guardiola.

You can't say we are going backwards until we see where we finish at the end of the season; if we finish out the top 10, fair enough... but even then it would be more to do with teams like Man City, Spurs etc improving by spending millions on top draw players while Moyes continues with what he's got , and if anything, losing players.
Andrew James
85   Posted 06/02/2011 at 01:36:46

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Eugene and Ian - get a room
Andrew James
86   Posted 06/02/2011 at 01:39:33

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Order room service, a nice bottle of vino and crack on. Hey it's Valentine's next week... so go for it.
Ian Tunstead
87   Posted 06/02/2011 at 01:37:18

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Roman

Moyes has proved time and time again that he is pound for pound the best manager in the league, he has proved overall that season after season he gets more from his players than anyone else.
His signings have been amongst the best in the league over the past 9 years.

For every Bolton and Spurs that seem to have improved due to change of management there is a Charlton and Newcastle that have been relegated because they thought a change of manager would take them to the next level.

Nobody that we could realistically attract has proved they have what it takes to take Everton to the "next level".
Ian Tunstead
88   Posted 06/02/2011 at 01:53:13

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Only if you join in Andrew ;-)
Roman Sidey
89   Posted 06/02/2011 at 02:58:36

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Well, Ian, like I said a few weeks ago about young forwards not scoring goals because they aren't getting on the pitch, the same goes for other managers. You can't say they haven't proven that they can take Everton to the next level because they haven't managed Everton. As I said earlier, how many of you said at the start of 2002 that there was a young manager at PNE that could get us up to 4th within 3 years? I doubt that.

And, Ian, past past past. You guys always point to the past when defending Moyes. What about the now? 6 wins by mid-February? What a great job he's doing.

I really didn't want to get into the Moyes debate on a day where we should just be stoked for the team and in particular Saha for his great return, but you guys brought it on before any of us said anything against the Ginger Twat.
Liu Weixian
90   Posted 06/02/2011 at 03:48:37

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A terrific game, but our defending was truly woeful. And someone please teach Heitinga how to make a proper block tackle!
Colin Potter
91   Posted 06/02/2011 at 09:02:04

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Ian, Moyes has had a good day at last, stop going overboard about it. How many has he had this season? Fingers on one hand springs to mind.

You think Moyes is the best manager in the league? I hope it isn't true, but you sound as if you live a bit of a dreary life.

Dave Wilson
92   Posted 06/02/2011 at 08:37:06

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In my experience, a manager's "imagination" is usually gaged by the form of his strikers.

Max/Albert ? Very childish boys.. very funny though.
Lori Fekete
93   Posted 06/02/2011 at 09:39:36

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Amazing game!

Might have known that Good old TW would have the usual suspects still saying we should get rid of Moyes. For fuck's sake. If that last transfer window didn't just sum it all up! Dominated most teams this year with great passing football and with any fucking luck we could've been around European places.

By rights we should be where Leeds and Forest have been the last few years. Be careful what you wish for.
Eugene Ruane
94   Posted 06/02/2011 at 10:16:36

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Lori says..

"Might have known that Good old TW would have the usual suspects still saying we should get rid of Moyes".

STILL!?

What...you mean after a home win against Blackpool (one that sees us conceding 3 goals) I'm supposed to say I've completely changed my mind?

Fucking hilarious!

Also I love the inference of "after all the glory, the accolades, the success, you're STILL moaning".

Seriously, five year-olds put more thought into debate.

For people to be crowing about Moyes, after a home win against Blackpool is worrying, because it suggests there are many who's standards are lower than a snake's ball-bag.
Bertie Alloff
95   Posted 06/02/2011 at 11:48:30

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With all the handbags between Eugene and Ian I fear we have overlooked a ToffeeWeb classic, @Ian 62:

"I am not proclaiming to be a genious." (sic)

Loving that.
Ian Tunstead
96   Posted 06/02/2011 at 11:47:28

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Roman,
The reason we needed to change under Walter was because we were nearly relegated season after season, finishing 15th and 16th in his last couple of seasons. Moyes's positions have usually been 5th and 6th.

I look to the past because if you don?t learn from your history you will continue to make the same mistakes over and over and over again. What about now? You say well what about now? The season hasn?t even finished yet to judge him. The league is very tight, we could finish anywhere from 6th to 16th but let?s at least wait and see. 6 wins by mid-February, you say is irrelevant because the season doesn?t finish in February, it?s been a similar story in a few seasons but we have always managed to turn it around.
Ian Tunstead
97   Posted 06/02/2011 at 11:56:37

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Yes Colin, a very dreary life it would be if Moyes left Everton. That is for certain.
Eugene Ruane
98   Posted 06/02/2011 at 11:59:54

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Bertie Allof - no doubt you would have used the Linekerism 'handbags' to describe the Yalta conference (have a feeling you're probably big on 'banter').

Andrew James - you are Bluekipper and I claim my £5
Alan Clarke
99   Posted 06/02/2011 at 12:59:12

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Whoop Whoop, fantastic, unbelievable - Everton won a home game against relegation candidates!!

WOW.

I'm speechless. Moyes obviously is a genius and I was wrong all along. In fact, because we won, I must have been wrong about Kenwright too.
Ian Tunstead
100   Posted 06/02/2011 at 13:01:09

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Eugene

You say "What... you mean after a home win against Blackpool (one that sees us conceding 3 goals), I'm supposed to say I've completely changed my mind?"

But this is the the Blackpool side managed by the great Ian Holloway who is so gooed he should manage Everton. Moyes showed him how it is done like he normally does.
Leon Perrin
101   Posted 06/02/2011 at 13:32:15

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Ian

You're Dodd-speak is getting worse, Holloway deserves plaudits for what he's done.
They didn't have a prayer at the start of the season, no money, no stadium but they overcame and I hope they survive.
Ian Tunstead
102   Posted 06/02/2011 at 14:33:11

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Well well well, Di Matteo one of those managers listed on toffeeweb numerous times as the man to replce Moyes and take us to the next level.... Sacked by West Brom.
Roman Sidey
103   Posted 06/02/2011 at 14:36:36

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Ian, you missed the point completey. I wasn't saying Smith shouldn't have gone. What I said was, noone would have suggested Moyes as the candidate to take over. So, the people saying that we can't come up with a suitable alternative to Moyes (albeit a suitable replacement in THEIR ginger colour eyes) really aren't using a good debate to shut us down. Who knows who would be the next great Everton manager, but without giving someone a try we'll never know, and Moyes probably won't win anything (maybe a cup if he's lucky) while at Everton.

On the learning from your history point Ian, I'm a history teacher, so I know about learning from mistakes to save yourself in the future. Maybe the club could employ me to give Moyes a few lessons in learning from past mistakes - repetetive bad subs, selling players a little earlier to get more money for them and to have time to spend that money, etc.
Ray Robinson
104   Posted 06/02/2011 at 14:57:56

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Leon #57. Lescott it was, sorry. http://www.evertonfc.com/match/report/0809/west-ham-united-v-everton.html
David Israel
105   Posted 06/02/2011 at 14:22:49

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Well, well, let's not get carried away just because we managed to come back with a certain style at home to a team that, for all its endeavours, will probably be fighting for survival to the very last day of the season.

There were some very positive signs by all accounts, but our defensive play remains very suspicious and I can't see us climbing up the table if we don't fix that.

Going back to the Heitinga subject, why not play him and Jagielka? Distin has had his hiccups, even though he's been having a better season than the last one.
Dave Wilson
106   Posted 06/02/2011 at 14:42:09

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You make a good point Ian.
the list of alternative managers comes up every season and as the De Matteo's of this world get found out, it dwindles and is usually gone by the end of February.

Holloway has enjoyed having no pressure or expectation, its easy to "go for it " when your fans just feel lucky to be here. but like Tony Mowbrey and Phil Brown before him , the increasingly gobby "Goon" is being found out and will soon be managing at a level more suited to his Schoolboy naivety.

Jamie @12

You also make a very good point. Moyes benched Saha and Beckford at West Ham and his critics went hysterical. They were prepared to let them get away with stinking the place out, the Ginger fella had far bigger balls than that, he wasn't having it . . seems he got that right too. He`ll probably turn his attention to those individual defensive errors, expect JH to be dropped next week.

He`s a really good manager Moyesie . . I wish to fuck he`d start work before Chrimbo though.




Ian Tunstead
107   Posted 06/02/2011 at 15:08:24

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Roman

Let?s face it the chances of us replacing Walter and getting an improvement, i.e. taking us away from fighting relegation every season were favourable. The chances of bringing someone in who can take the club to the champion?s league are pretty slim; because that is the next level we are talking about here. Who ever comes in will not be able to compete with the millions spent by the current top 5.

As you know you history, tell me how many clubs and managers or teams outside of Man Utd Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea have made it into the top 4 in the last 10 years? There was only one until last season that I can think of and his name is David Moyes with Everton.

Only Moyes, Redknapp and Sir Bobby Robson in relatively recent times have shown they have the pedigree to break the top 4. Sadly Bobby has left us, and Redknapp is a crook who copys Moyes homework, which you should detest being a teacher.

Let?s not forget what happened to Robson when Newcastle thought he had taken them as far as he could, he was given the boot and Newcastle have been on a downward spiral ever since.

As for your other points, Moyes is not the only manager who makes repetitive bad subs, but Moyes gets it right more than he gets it wrong. I don?t understand your final point about selling players early to get more money?
Roman Sidey
108   Posted 06/02/2011 at 15:36:07

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Ian, have you heard of two clubs from up north that go by the names Leeds United and Newcaslte United?
One of them wear white, the other black and white stripes. One plays at a plays called Elland Road the other at Saint James' Park. Am I getting through to you?
Ian Tunstead
109   Posted 06/02/2011 at 16:12:13

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Erm... maybe if you were an English teacher instead of a History teacher you would be able to read properly.

I clearly mentioned Newcastle when i talked about Sir Bobby Robson. But my question was more specifically "tell me how many clubs and managers or teams outside of Man Utd Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea have made it into the top 4 in the last 10 years?" I dont remeber Leeds breaking the top 4 in the last 10 years, but you are the History teacher so i'll have to take your word for it i suppose.
Ian Tunstead
110   Posted 06/02/2011 at 16:30:30

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Just checked it out Roman and your History is Correct Leeds broke the top 4 in the last 10 years... seems a lot longer ago than that, but lets not forget what they did to get there and what the outcome was.
Martin Mason
111   Posted 06/02/2011 at 16:19:44

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Moyes has put together a very good squad that can play top class football and, on their day, beat anybody. In that respect, he has done exceptionally well.

He is totally frustrating though with selection, formation and substitution but I'd fear where we'd go if he left. The chances of finding a manager who could do better with no resources is small and I don't believe in miracles. The likelihood would be descent into oblivion which would be a very real risk.

If we had more money, there would be a chance of finding a manager who could do well but until then it would be absolute lunacy to change Moyes.

I'm not sure why some of us believe that a team in our financial position should be doing a lot better than we are doing or how that would be possible. Do we just quote the club motto that has become a millstone around our necks?

David Booth
112   Posted 06/02/2011 at 17:07:35

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Roman, am I interpreting one of your last posts (107), correctly: you're citing Leeds and Newcastle as examples we should be aspiring to?

If so, you'd better remove that bullet from your foot?
Bertie Alloff
113   Posted 06/02/2011 at 17:45:00

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@98 Careful with that axe, Eugene. ;)
Roman Sidey
114   Posted 06/02/2011 at 17:42:05

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No David, I don't think we should be aspiring to that, but Ian asked me to tell him another club that had "broken the big 4" in the last ten years.

Ian, you did mention Robson, so why did you say that you could only think of one club to have "broken the big 4" in the last ten years?

I keep "ing the term "breaking the big 4" for reason too. We "did it" in 05, the season before that was the so called "big 4" who previously made up the top 4 positions in 1998!

Also, everyone knows that Moyes isn't the only manager that makes poor subs and uses negative tactics, but this site is called TOFFEEweb, so we naturally focus on EVERTON rather than other clubs.
Andy Crooks
115   Posted 06/02/2011 at 18:14:39

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Ian, Walter Smith had a pittance to spend compared to David Moyes. Money for the likes of Krøldrup, AJ, Yakubu, Bily, Fellaini was unavailable to Walter. He, unlike David Moyes, is a proven winner. Sure, you'll come back with the "Scotland is nothing" argument. Well, Walter Smith took a Rangers squad, infinitely inferior to the squad David Motes has, to the final of the Uefa Cup.

When David Moyes eventually goes to Celtic, we will see just how he copes with the most pressurised environment in British football. Yesterday was magnificent; however, the fact that we look upon it as great shows how we have fallen. We conceded three goals against a side who will struggle to get another point this season.

In answer to your earlier comments, many names have been put forward as alternatives to David Moyes. He's been here too long. Hoddle, Poyet, Bilic. Maybe any one of those can do better than 13th.

Ian Tunstead
116   Posted 06/02/2011 at 18:10:07

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Roman, i'm talking about mangers that we could bring in to replace Moyes who have broke into the top 4, there is only Redknapp becuase as i said, sadly Bobby is no longer around.

Yes you are right this is toffeeweb, so we are going to discuss Evertons tactics but if we are talking about replacing Moyes then i thought it was worth while mentioning that his potential replacements have also been critcised for the same things so we wouldnt be making much progress.

The "big 4" have been the same big 4 since your names sake arrived at chelsea, and now that Man City have spent millions they have taken Liverpools place in the pecking order.

Yes spurs got 4th last season not Man City but it was undecided untill the last game when they played each other, i dont think Spurs will take 4th this time now that City have spent further millions even though Spurs have splashed a bit as well.
Ian Tunstead
117   Posted 06/02/2011 at 18:27:37

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Andy Moyes took Everton to the final of the FA Cup so what, they both lost and came out with nothing.

Moyes didnt do too badly in the UEFA cup a few seasons ago when we won every game in the group beating the eventual UEFA and Super Cup winner Zenit along the way only knocked out on penalties to a good Florentina side who went on the following seasons to show what a good side they were.

As for comparing the money hes spent, most of that has come from having to sell players, fair enough he was lucky to be able to get money from the Rooney deal, but overall he has used the money very wisely.

As for down playing the result against Blackpool, this is the team with the manager that many think is the ideal man to replace Moyes. The other people you have put forward are a joke, Poyet cant even speak English properly i heard him on MOTD or football focus not so long ago and he made less sense than Marcel Desailly who cant even string propper sentences together so how is he supposed to communicate with the players? he would do as well as Di Matteo and Martinez.
Roman Sidey
118   Posted 06/02/2011 at 18:30:23

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And when did my namesake take over at Chelsea? I'm thinking it was 2003, preceding the 03-04 season when the "big 4" was top 4 until we replaced Liverpool. What I'm saying is, we keep praising Moyes for "breaking into the big 4" when the "big 4" was a very flawed term. Basically we "broke into the top 4" before it was established. Doesn't make sense to me.

Back to the real issue here, Yesterday's game was a fantastic football game, but if that was Moyes' judgement day, I have to agree with Andy Crooks and say we are worse off than we all thought.

It's obvious anyway, Moyes wants out, and knows that if he quits he gives up a massive amount of money, but if he performs badly and is sacked it's payday.
Roman Sidey
119   Posted 06/02/2011 at 18:44:43

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Ian, have you heard Ancelotti speak English? He's terrible and took a stale Chelsea side to a double last year... You sound like a scared little man that can't fathom the unfamiliar.
Craig Bellew
120   Posted 06/02/2011 at 18:43:57

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I've just had a quick look at Bluekipper and came across an article titled "Moyes puts the record straight", it's via their homepage with a pic of DM and the title "Leaving".

My point is after reading pretty much what was reported by the Echo amongst others recently, there have been 6 comments on the article all singing from the rooftops that, in the words of one poster "long live the Moyesiah"

Are they all blind or are these fans watching the Everton of Chile? (I've not checked there recent form or league placing before you advise they are worse than us.)

Firstly that word 'Moyesiah'; never liked it ? even when I did like him (beauts). Secondly, the man we call our manager needs replacing, albeit I'd say come the end of the season as no point now... and please can he take Round and BK (once his 24/7 search has finally come to fruition) with him.

The fans on Bluekipper gave me a giggle if nothing else, but in reality seem to have been living on a different planet to most, and seem to have only posted after another dodgy defensive display, the only difference being our strikers converted the chances presented to them.

I don't need to go into what our manager has done wrong or lacks, as it has been covered already and I would be here all day, but please don't let one decent result put a gloss on a shite season. I hope come the start of next season that he has been replaced with a manager with fresh and new ideas and a board that is willing to stump up more than £1.75 for fresh faces, because another season like this just is not good enough!!

Thanks Louis for your efforts yesterday... long overdue, but better late than never. I woke up this morning with a smile on my face, I had forgotten how good it felt to take 3 points from an average side, so long may it continue. Let's get this season finished and re-group hopefully without the "Moyesiah".

Ian Tunstead
121   Posted 06/02/2011 at 19:11:31

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http://www.toffeeweb.com/season/00-01/table.asp
10 years ago this year when Leeds broke into the top 4

http://www.toffeeweb.com/season/03-04/premtable.php The top 4 established as the "big 4"

http://www.toffeeweb.com/season/02-03/premtable.asp It could also be argued that the big 4 was established the year before but Newcastle broke into it.
Ian Tunstead
122   Posted 06/02/2011 at 19:20:15

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And yes i have hear Ancelotti speak, and i can tell you he makes a lot more sens than Poyet. If you heard him on football focus or what ever it was a couple of weeks ago you would no what i was talking about.
Ian Tunstead
123   Posted 06/02/2011 at 19:23:14

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Craig

"one decent result" off the top of my head what about Spurs, City and Chelsea?
Eugene Ruane
124   Posted 06/02/2011 at 19:16:11

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Bertie, the first person I remember making that 'joke' was my cousin Peter. I didn't really know what he meant and later that evening as I sat watching The Monkees....

Roman Sidey
125   Posted 06/02/2011 at 19:30:52

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Chelsea was a draw. Enough said.
Roman Sidey
126   Posted 06/02/2011 at 19:33:34

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Ian those tables back up exactly what I was saying.
Dave Wilson
127   Posted 06/02/2011 at 19:36:12

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Andy

You say you are a lover of football and I believe you, so please stop putting Walter Smith getting to a final up there as an achievement.

I have never seen witnessed the sort of turgid anti-football Walter employed to get there. Every football fan in Europe wrung their hands in frustration, he is without dobut the most negative manager in the game, he makes Davey Moyes look like Ossie Ardiles.

Did you see the match today? The Hoops are down to 10 for an hour and Walter's STILL got eleven behind the ball.

The tactics he employed at Old Trafford were utterly utterly shameful.

Roman Sidey
128   Posted 06/02/2011 at 19:48:32

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I'm happy to hear that Smith wasn't/isn't a good manager, but if losing the UEFA Cup Final can't be listed as an achievement (which I believe is right - it's Mickey Mouse at best) then people need to stop trying to list Moyes' "achievements". Losing a final isn't one.
Ian Tunstead
129   Posted 06/02/2011 at 19:59:05

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Roman

I thought you were trying to say that Moyes braking into the top 4 was not such a big thing because the "big 4? had not established themselves. But from the those tables you can see Chelsea, Arsenal , Man U and Liverpool were all up there even before Roman arrived and strengthened Chelsea even further.

Even looking at the league now and comparing it to 10 years ago it is the same except Man City have been swapped for Leeds and Spurs have been swapped for Newcastle.

As for Chelsea being stale, I?m not excepting that one. Man Utd have been stale but are still top of the league, Most of Chelsea?s players would still walk into any team.
David Booth
130   Posted 06/02/2011 at 19:54:29

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Andy (115), you'd rather have Walter Smith than David Moyes then?

We were absolutely hopeless when he was in charge, playing the most dreadful football, looking to the likes of Chadwick to give us hope for the future and wasting money on couldn't-care-less mercenaries and has beens like Matterazi, Dacourt and Collins.

Lovely man that he is, in 45 years as an Evertonian, I have never seen such dreadful football, blatantly backward progress and a total lack of future prospects/anticipation.

I know you're an avid Moyes detractor and can manage to get a dig in to that effect on ANY post
(even in what should be a celebratory one such as this), but do us a favour....

He was as dire as he is dour at Everton. To champion him over David Moyes is ludicrous and to do so just exposes but one major flaw in your boringly repetitive 'Moyes out' mantra. More than that, it's laughable.

Like others have posted elsewhere, Ferguson, Mourinho and Guardiola could not have turned more sows ears into silk purses at Everton than David Moyes.

And I dispute your assertion that Moyes has had more money to spend. Apart from the three former players mentioned above, Smith was allowed to indulge himself much more freely - but can you name anyone he bought that you remember fondly?

I could probably name a whole international team from Moyes, all or most of whom are coveted by all or most of our rivals.

There are NO easy games this year in case you haven't woken up to that yet and although one swallow does not make a Summer, it was a great win yesterday, especially after the setback of losing a lead twice and facing defeat with 20 minutes to go. Blackpool can play a bit you know...

But we fought back, showed skill, style and spirit - and that's what counts. It's what we did, not who we did it against that matters.

Let not anyone forget, before that fortune-changing win at Oxford more than quarter of a century ago, we were dying on our arse under Howard Kendall.

Then it all changed.

Odd quibbles aside (Heitinga and Distin having on off-day for example), it was like a mini-flashback yesterday with everyone else showing what they could do.

I don't know how old you are, or if you were around back in the mid-eighties? I was and went to virtually every game, home and away.

Players like Stevens, Ratcliffe, Steven, Sheedy, Sharp, Heath metamorphosised overnight and became the great Evertonians we now rightly revere them for.

I saw signs of that against Blackpool. Not as seismic maybe, but positive all the same.

Can you never find anything positive to say?

If we'd won 10-0 yesterday, I'm sure you'd still have found something to moan about. Indeed, I warned early on in this thread that people needed to keep an eye out for the handful of people like yourself who would be hell-bent on finding fault as it progressed.

To you and the rest of your perpetually-unhappy band: lighten up. We won 5-3.

David Booth
131   Posted 06/02/2011 at 20:22:45

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PS: and David Moyes can do better than 13th too Andy - indeed he's done it on numerous occasions since he's been here.
Roman Sidey
132   Posted 06/02/2011 at 20:24:20

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Ian, I'm not saying the "big 4" aren't/weren't the biggest clubs for a long while, and, yes, Chelsea were in and about before Abramovich took charge. All I ever did was answer your question and point out that you missed some when you said: "There was only one until last season that I can think of and his name is David Moyes with Everton."

David Booth, I for one, and can't find many others finding fault with the Blackpool game. What we keep repeating is that beating Blackpool shouldn't be what we celebrate at the end of the season.

We have a decent run of league games coming up, none of which are against teams we should be losing to and most we have a good chance of beating. Let's hope that Moyes learns from this Blackpool game and puts the right players in the right places at the right times. If he can consistently do this, I'd love to see him do it for as long as he can.
Ian Tunstead
133   Posted 06/02/2011 at 20:34:45

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Ok fair enough, and they were David O'Leary... Just making it into the 10 year bracket who spent millions and top players that they couldn?t really afford resulting in them being lost in the lower leagues, probably forever.

Then there was Sir bobby Robson, excellent manager and great man, he would be the one i would think about swapping with David Moyes but as we know, that is not possible. But what happened to him? The same thing that happened with Moyes. The fans thought they knew best, saying the same things they say about Moyes, like, ?he's took us as far as he can, we need a change, someone with imagination, someone who can take us to the next level. ?The next thing ,they are down at the bottom of the table until they were eventually relegated.

Then there is Harry Redknapp who took over a top 6 side under a terrible run of form. They sacked Jol and brought in a manager who couldn?t even speak English and things went from bad to worse. Harry took over and it was perfect timing selling one or 2 of Jols players for big money and added more depth to the squad giving them enough to turn them from a top 6 side to a top 4 side, crucially they qualified for the Champions League which unfortunately we never succeeded with which has given Spurs the momentum and most importantly money to stay up there.

But I don?t need to give you a History lesson because you already knew all this but for some reason you think we have a good chance of bringing someone in who can turn this club around with no money and compete against the "Big 4" plus Man Citys Millions and Spurs Champions League Cash not to mention most of the other clubs spending more than us.

I think it would be a huge gamble and would prove to be a very big mistake, eventually we would follow in the footsteps of Leeds or Charlton or Newcastle etc. etc.
Roman Sidey
134   Posted 06/02/2011 at 21:06:34

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So what happened to Spurs was this, they were decent, sacked their manager after a bad run, had a shite manager, then replaced him with another, and now they're in the UCL beating Inter Milan. The start of that story doesn't sound too different to our situation. I don't think anyone would think our aim should be challenging for a top 4 spot at the moment. I'll be stoked if we finish in the top 10 this year, but still very dissappointed with the season we've had. Next season, not so much.

I come from a belief system that "anything less than the Premier League is a failure". Sorry to have higher standards than those that think the sun shines out of Moyes's arse, but 9 years with nothing shiny... Fuck that!

Andy Crooks
135   Posted 06/02/2011 at 21:16:48

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David , I just think that Walter Smith gets a pretty raw deal. He did steer us through grim times. He was replaced by a dynamic ambitious young coach who turned the club around. In my view he is now stale. We need to find another one.
David Thomas
136   Posted 06/02/2011 at 21:18:11

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Roman,

Who do you think we could bring in then who is going to have us winning shiny things with the finances we currently have and the finances that other teams we are competing with currently have?
Roman Sidey
137   Posted 06/02/2011 at 21:25:05

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I honestly can't put forward one candidate that people aren't going to give me all sorts about. I, personally, am a fan of Roy Keane, but I know that people are going to say that he couldn't even do a good job at Ipswich. The problem is, no matter who I say, they have probably been lousy somewhere. What people forget is that some match ups just don't work. Who's to say that SAF wouldn't be really ordinary at Stoke, and who's to say that Moyes wouldn't succeed tremendously if given a shot at United or even Arsenal. What I do know is that Moyes brought us to a point that was somewhat sustainable, but has gone stale and probably won't be able to reproduce 04-09 again unless he started over from scratch.
David Thomas
138   Posted 06/02/2011 at 21:42:42

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Roman,

Yes Moyes would more than likely succeed tremendously at United or Arsenal because he would have a significant amount of money to utilise than he has at present. SAF would not win as many shiny things at Stoke because he would not have loads of cash to splash out ie He would not be able to slash out £8 million on a defender who played less than one season in top level football or £7 million on a striker he had never seen play.

The point is how many managers have been winning shiny things without money whilst Moyes has been at Everton.

Also, you state we will not be able to produce 04-09 again without starting again. Well we are only 3 points off 8 and 9 as we stand. However, i would obviously agree that i would like us to be aspiring for a higer finish than 8 or 9th.
Ian Tunstead
139   Posted 06/02/2011 at 22:37:27

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Yes, you are right about Spurs, but haven't we established that what Redknapp has done at Spurs is a bit of a one-off? Will they make the top 4 this season? I'm not sure. To have a repeat reaction for Everton with a new manager would be a bit of a long shot. What I do know is that it is a thin line between success and failure and Spurs were very close to not making that 4th place last season. Plus Harry has had a bit more money to play about with than Moyes.
Ben Wellings
140   Posted 07/02/2011 at 00:28:19

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Hey, Mr 'Incredible Unbelievable' Kenrick

It would appear that you seem to think you've struck upon some so called 'comedy gold' (as the constant repetition would suggest) but just to let you know, your reference to the words incredible and unbelievable were not actually witty, amusing or otherwise, the first time.

Your relentless cynical 'journalism' is tiresome, boring and childish.

Why don't you give it a rest for a little while, or at the very least think up some new titles to your articles... I'm all laughed out!
Michael Kenrick
141   Posted 07/02/2011 at 03:51:30

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Thanks for that, Ben. I wasn't planning to make any more reference to the patently ridiculous descriptives our esteemed manager came out with to herald his "underachievement" at losing 2 points rather than 3 in numerous draws at Anfield during his reign...

But sadly all we could manage in the three subsequent games after he came out with that rubbish were ? guess what ? fucking draws!!! Three more incredible, unbelievable DRAWS! That bit was not of my making, Ben. But sadly it summed up only too well the dreadful season he has overseen to date. Which is why I made reference to it.

That brings us to Saturday and the indisputable fact that this WAS, for once, a game truly worthy of those maligned descriptors. This was a truly incredible, unbelievable game ? the like of which we have very rarely seen on his watch. Perhaps that provides mitigating circumstances for him misusing such terms to describe an all too consistent failure to beat our arch rivals at their gaff... but I don't think so really.

Feel free to carp; let us know when we can look forward to some meaningful contribution from you.

Nick West
142   Posted 07/02/2011 at 11:38:38

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I'm with Ian Tunstead. We're lucky to have Moyes for a myriad of reasons, most of which he's listed. And quite honestly, it seems blindingly obvious.
David Price
143   Posted 07/02/2011 at 11:31:47

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Weather's getting bad up here... was that thunder or the sound of Ben's smacked arse!?!
KPR Williams
144   Posted 07/02/2011 at 11:26:46

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Moyes is terrible: negative, tired, useless. we need a change, freshen things up... Blah blah blah ? It's crap, absolute crap.

Holloway over Moyes? Lost more in the last 10 games than we have all season, but he plays great football dont he? .... Does he? 2-3 up after 2 very lucky goals and he takes off his best attacking players and brings on 2 defenders.... result?

Di Matteo....P45, deserved? His record suggests justified ? too many defeats.

Ask any supporter in the prem who they would realistically have as manager if their manager was sacked in the morning. But let's sack him for the sake of change eh...

Onwards and downwards.

Eugene Ruane
145   Posted 07/02/2011 at 13:24:02

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I'm with Eugene Ruane, the man hits the nail on the head every time, nothing short of genius.
Tony J Williams
146   Posted 07/02/2011 at 13:38:14

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So we shouldn't overreact when we beat "lowly" Blackpool (who actually above us at the start of play) but it's ok to go over the top when criticising the team/manager when we get beat by a single goal to the 2nd placed team in the league? Great logic that!
Karl Masters
147   Posted 07/02/2011 at 14:20:49

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David Moorcroft #58

''What happened today has got nothing to do with the way that twat Kenwright is destroying our club. That is what you heard people moaning about. Not the game today.''

YOU MUST BE HAVING A LAUGH, MATE!

This site has been awash with misery drenched Evertonians crying for Moyes to leave in recent weeks. We even had the ludicrous thread entitled ''If we don't win today (v Blackpool) Moyes must Resign!''

Fickle isn't even close!
Eugene Ruane
148   Posted 07/02/2011 at 16:02:23

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'Misery- drenched and fickle', that is what Karl Masters thinks of me (and many of you)

Well let's do 'misery drenched' first.

Me?

Guilty as charged.

I have, for most of this season, been drenched in misery.

But...I don't understand why it comes across as an accusation against ME, instead of those who have done the drenching.

You drench me in trophies and/or attacking football and that's what I'll be drenched in, you drench me in misery....et-fucking-cetera

As for fickle?

Incredible, it seems one decent game against average opposition and there's self-righteous, 'better blues' all over the show.

Giving it loads to those with the temerity to suggest we might be better replacing a man who has been in his job 9 years, won fuck-nothing, is over-cautious, defensive and lacks imagination.

The NERVE!

Seriously, if that's the best you can do 'MATE', you should wind your fucking neck in

(nb: and seriously - stick your better blue-ist shite up your tea-towel holder).
Jamie Barlow
149   Posted 07/02/2011 at 17:30:18

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Brilliant Bertie @95. Made me chuckle.
Colin Potter
150   Posted 07/02/2011 at 17:41:40

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Sorry Eugene, but these Moyes apologists are far more comical than you today... not that I'm laughing, just shaking my head in dismay.
Andy Crooks
151   Posted 07/02/2011 at 18:44:05

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Eugene, well done. To question what has gone on this season is apparently unacceptable.
Andy Crooks
152   Posted 07/02/2011 at 18:48:56

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Incidentally, it seems to me that those who think David Moyes is God are a lot less tolerant than those who don't. David Booth, does disagreeing with you make me less of an Evertonian?
Karl Masters
153   Posted 07/02/2011 at 19:28:38

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Eugene.

Have I said you in particular are fickle?

Before you answer that with one of your long-winded replies, the answer is No. You have nailed your anti-Moyes colours to the mast a long time ago, so you are consistent and not fickle and I doubt Everton beating Liverpool 4-1 in the Campions League Final would actually satisfy you and some others completely.

However, the point I was making to somebody else was that as usual we now see a huge over-reaction. This time it's joy at winning a game 5-3 against a team on a run of 7 defeats in 8, while earlier this week it's utter despair at losing a game narrowly away to Arsenal.

Many things have gone wrong this season and I question much of it myself. However, when I asked for sensible suggstions to a Moyes replacement on here a while ago there were no responses. If nobody has a better plan, perhaps we can only accept who we have got and question why he has been given very little to spend compared to others in the last three transfer windows.

By the way, Eugene, who would you like to see brought in?
Dave Wilson
154   Posted 07/02/2011 at 19:18:26

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I can't see the post where anybody claims to be a better blue. Nor can I see anywhere where people claim Moyes is God. I do see people who seem determined to wallow in their misery.

I can understand people being miserable when we lose, at a stretch, I can even understand people being really unhappy when we only managed a draw against the current Champions, but when we've just been royally entertained, got three points, and you're still fucken moaning...

Seriously guys, I wanna know, why put yourselves through it?

Andy Crooks
155   Posted 07/02/2011 at 20:01:17

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Dave, Saturday was brilliant, really brilliant. I see you as someone who can see both sides of a debate. So, why can you not see that one result does nor make it all well? That the problems that were there before Saturday are still there? That taking a negative view of David Moyes does not make one not an Evertonian?

I am not drenched in misery; believe it or not I want the same as you, David Booth and Ian Tunstead. I just see the way there differently.

Dave Wilson
156   Posted 07/02/2011 at 20:14:27

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Andy

Of course you are right, an awful lot of our problems are still here, and they will still be here if we win 5-3 next week too. But let's be fair here, you have been one the first to attack Moyes after a defeat and, if we lost on Saturday, you and the rest of Moyes`s critics would have had a field day.

Next time you see a thread calling for Moyes`s head, take time out, look at it from both sides, his supporters not only have to put up with the constructive criticism, they also have to put up with digs and insults, it works both ways.

I personally find the word apologist, deeply insulting; I think it can only ever be used by people wanting to create division, it lacks respect and will always draw retaliation.

We won on Saturday and we won in style. But if what we have seen so far is anything to go by, there`ll be plenty of opportunities to criticise between now and the end of the season and Moyes`s critics will once again point the finger at his supporters.

You`re right, we all want the same thing, so let's just enjoy the win, we can always resume hostilities after the next defeat
Eugene Ruane
157   Posted 07/02/2011 at 20:46:29

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Dave Wilson, you say...

"I can't see the post where anybody claims to be a better blue".

Really, well then let me help you out.

The dictionary defines fickle...

"Persons or things that are not firm or steady in affection".

Not much room there for confusion is there?

I mean it couldn't mean person who likes cheese or person prone to skin blisters ? right?

Ok, well according to Karl, as I'm in favour of a change of manager, I am not firm or steady in affection ? fickle (nb: please feel free to point out where I am confused or have 'got the wrong end of the stick').

You finish by asking "Why do you put yourselves through it?"

Goood question, maybe because we're not....I'll let you fish that.

Karl Masters you say you didn't say I in particular was fickle.

Wrong, that is EXACTLY what you said ? I disagreed with you, those who disagree with you are fickle, therefore I'M fickle... you MUST be the better blue.

The truth is, to state that others are fickle is saying TWO things VERY clearly.

1) I'M not fickle (I'm good)

2) THEY are (they're bad)

And if you fuck off all the semantics of "I didn't literally say..." or "what I meant was.." this IS better blueism and used in ANY Everton-related debate, as desperate as it gets... in my opinion

By the way, your 'long winded' comment?

Well I could change my style to suit you but.....well, that would be fickle.
Karl Masters
158   Posted 07/02/2011 at 22:48:32

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The trouble with you Eugene is you just want to create your own agenda.

Nowhere have I said that I am a better Blue than you or anybody else. That would appear to be your interpretation of it and you have either got the wrong end of the stick or just love an argument..

I implied I'm not fickle and I'm not. I have a very clear view on Everton FC, expressed plenty of times on here: The playing side of it is better under Moyes than it would be under anyone else I can think of (and I note that you still have not given me a name of the man you think should be Manager) and I think the off-the-field activities are by and large a shambles.

Are you fickle? Well, not in the variance of your beliefs which are consistently anti just about everything (including Pink shirts), but as a Supporter? Who knows, but offering support does not seem to be one of your strengths, does it?

I am just bored, even saddened at times, by reading the over-reaction of some people on here, especially when things go well. Saturday's game was a great spectacle. Not perfect because we let in 3 bad goals, but on this occasion that just made the 5 we did get even sweeter. Yet some people want to argue, moan, continue to denigrate Moyes and the players even then. Can you not be happy just for one week?

I am not calling myself a Better Blue (whatever that means anyway), but I am calling you a Bitter Blue. Liverpool fans must love an argument with you, you seem to fit their stereotypical Evertonian to a tee.
Jamie Crowley
159   Posted 07/02/2011 at 18:49:05

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I just finished reading all this banter...

Can we agree Saturday was specatular in many respects?
Can we not also say it was a refreshing change from the utter garbage we've been saddled with watching on many occassion this season?

Saturday = fantastic, utterly enjoyable watch where you can still be critical on many levels of many things that occured. Yet happy at the approach and just the fun of watching a match, any match, like that? 8 goals! We won....

Season = utterly disappointing in many aspects.

Can you have enjoyed Saturday AND simultaneously still be miffed at Kenright and many of Moyes's decisions this year?

Yes?

Am I riding a fencepost?
Karl Masters
160   Posted 07/02/2011 at 23:41:40

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Jamie.

Perfectly put.

Good Night. :)
Andy Crooks
161   Posted 07/02/2011 at 23:56:26

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Dave, I don't use the term "apologist" and I agree with you that is utterly inappropriate. I have strong views on David Moyes but the idea that some who opposes me is in some way apologising for David Moyes is ludicrous.

I'd like a change, in fact, I think a change is vital for the future of the club. However, it doesn't mean that I don't respect the job Mr Moyes has done.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
162   Posted 08/02/2011 at 05:50:28

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I guess one thing I've never understood is why some fans take it upon themselves to decide how other fans should support the club. They decide when fans should be happy; when fans should be contemplative; when fans can be bitter. They decide to call fans who dare to break their rules all sorts of silly names... starting with this fucking word ... 'fickle'. I'm done with 'fickle'. Henceforth, it's BANNED!

And to that, let's add another exceedingly annoying claim we see far too much on here: "short memories". Enough already.
Eugene Ruane
163   Posted 08/02/2011 at 07:29:36

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Karl - wrong again (what a suprise!)

And I'll prove it.

You say I'm 'anti-everything' - here are a few things I'm FOR.

Attacking football.

Trophies.

Shareholders meeting.

Freshening things up when they become stale.

Positive tactics on the field.

Tradition

Etc

Blah

Dave Wilson
164   Posted 08/02/2011 at 08:33:55

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Eugene
You are indeed correct, that's exactly what the dictionary says, so I`m not sure how you interpret what Karl says as him claiming to be a better blue.

We fans are all in some way guilty of "not being firm or steady in affection".

I called Bily all the lazy bastards under the sun at the Emirates... but I was singing his praises on Saturday. I freely admit to not being steady with my affections: if someone plays well I think he`s wonderful; if he plays badly, I think he`s a twat... thought that was how it worked

Does that make me a lesser blue in some peoples eyes? More to the point, should I give a fuck?

Andy, Fair answer.
Karl Masters
165   Posted 08/02/2011 at 09:48:14

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Eugene,

You say '' here are a few things I'm FOR.

Attacking football.

Trophies.

Shareholders meeting.

Freshening things up when they become stale.

Positive tactics on the field.

Tradition


I'd agree with a lot of that, but don't forget that Moyes is only responsible for the events on the pitch so you cannot blame him for Shareholders Meetings being stopped (clearly outrageous) and I think he told us he was a traditionalist when asked about going to Kirkby (implying he understood the Club's traditions). I think he'd love a few trophies too!

As for positive, attacking football, I agree he's made some mistakes this season (4-5-1 against the likes of Wolves and Wigan for example), but of course this leads us back to one thing:

Would he play differently with better attacking players, does he get the support from the Boardroom to really do that (ie, buy real top drawer players raher than polishing rough diamonds) properly? And if things have gone stale, for the third time of asking, just WHO would you bring in Eugene to do a better job? I'd really be interested in your opinion on that one.
Tony J Williams
166   Posted 08/02/2011 at 12:12:44

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But Michael "fickle" is what most football supporters are.

At the match, a player can one minute be a world beater and then the next an effen useless barsteward in my eyes.

Football fans are not logic and "fickle" fits in nicely with all the illogical thoughts going around our heads.

Banning the word will just make a lot of fans use lond winded sentences to say the same thing.

Up with "Fickle", Hell no we won't go etc etc
Eugene Ruane
167   Posted 08/02/2011 at 12:40:15

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Karl you say..

"And if things have gone stale, for the third time of asking, just WHO would you bring in Eugene to do a better job? I'd really be interested in your opinion on that one".

OoooooOOOOOO - for the THIRD time of asking!

Well here's a question - why dIdn't you read ALL the bleeding posts (clue: particularly 65).

If you'd done this, you'd have seen that you didn't have to ask three times as the answer to your (ultimately pointless) question had...how can I put this... ALREADY FUCKING WELL BEEN ANSWERED!.

Seriously - were you confused by 'If you offered me a swap for Holloway right now I'd take it"?

It wasn't clear somehow?

Anyway, I look forward to your belated "HOLLOWAY, FUCKING NOB-HEAD, WON FUCK-ALL...." etc response.

By the way, should I write this all down again a couple of times, just so you get it?
Eugene Ruane
168   Posted 08/02/2011 at 13:15:48

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Dave Wilson and Tony J Williams.

I don't dispute your interpretations of 'fickle' but you both make the point that your interpretations include 'all'.

The problem when used, as it was by Karl, is that it is/was patently NOT inclusive but rather 'you are fickle' and by inference, 'I'm not'.

Big difference and I repeat, imo, better blueism.
Karl Masters
169   Posted 08/02/2011 at 13:36:03

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Apologies Eugene for not taking your comments in #65 seriously. I thought you were joking as your comments hardly suggested this was a real solution. You wrote,

''I've NEVER slagged 'the man', but I think he lacks imagination and if you offered me a swap for Holloway now, I'd take it, just to freshen the place up (nb: and I think Holloway is a goon)''

So, in your desperation to ''freshen things up a bit'', you'd entrust the most important job at the Club to someone you consider ''a goon''???

Says it all really..........
Eugene Ruane
170   Posted 08/02/2011 at 13:56:25

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Apology accepted.
Michael Kenrick
171   Posted 08/02/2011 at 20:22:34

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So this is about the struggle between retaining affection and yet applying critical analysis? I retain my affection for Everton FC while I apply critical analysis to the bits that can be improved. If they improve by the next game, is my affection level increased? Possibly. But "fickle" implies that the affection level goes away or drops to zero, then comes bounding back when things improve.

That's the way Karl's using it and I think it's garbage. Tony is applying the same confusion: applying critical analysis to something you like and care about DOES NOT MAKE YOU FICKLE. I reject as abhorrent any notion that it does.
Tony J Williams
172   Posted 08/02/2011 at 22:52:37

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Definition "marked by erratic changeableness in affections or attachments" He is shite Saha, well passed it - He is unplayable on his day. Fickle no?

Critical analysis is one thing Michael..... one thing that rarely gets a look in here immediately following a game.
Michael Kenrick
173   Posted 08/02/2011 at 23:23:54

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No Tony, that's bullshit. There is no change in affections or attachments ? there's a recognition and acknowledgement of a player's current form ? as on show in the last game he played.

Critical post-match analysis involves assessing that performance from the basis of a fan who maintains constant affection and attachment for his club and their players.

Form changes from game to game (or hadn't you noticed?) Fans remain loyal (ie NOT FICKLE ? in case you hadn't noticed) despite their ability to recognize and analyse such fluctuations in form, performance, delivery and results.

On behalf of all the genuine fans who contribute critical post-match analysis to this website, I totally and categorically reject your labelling of them as "fickle".
Roman Sidey
174   Posted 09/02/2011 at 01:09:48

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Imagine how much time is wasted debating semantics, rather than the actual issues the club faces.
Eugene Ruane
175   Posted 09/02/2011 at 06:44:53

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Please Roman, no anti-semantic slurs.
Tony J Williams
176   Posted 09/02/2011 at 08:54:08

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Roman, I am more than happy to waste time arguing semantic, as due to the missus taking my money, I have no life and it's not busy in work, but the problem is when you are arguing with a site owner, you can't really win, as he could a) edit your post if he so chooses to (not likely, but it has been done) or b) ban you if he wants.

Talk about the Sword of Damocles per se.

Michael, so we are allowed to change our affections/attachments every single game then? Is not that the very definition of "Fickle" You state current form, surely that is more than just one 90 minute game. "He's shit he is", scores four and it's back to "King Lois" We get beat by Arsenal, "He's tactically naive", beat Blackpool by scoring five,"He's the Moysiah" again. Fickle?
Dave Wilson
177   Posted 09/02/2011 at 11:29:36

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I can't make the connection, whilst I can see that calling somebody fickle may offend, I really don't see how it can be construed as a claim to be a better blue. Eugene takes to big a leap in my opinion ? a cracking one liner though (175)

Karl has repeatedly stated that it wasn't his intention, why can't that be accepted?

And why is post 150 ? a very obvious attempt to insult the people who had posted after being at the game ? considered ok? No opinion was expressed, just a direct attack, one which is often repeated and designed to somehow deter people who want to support the Everton manager.

Michael/ Eugene: Do you consider calling a fellow blue 'fickle' a greater insult than calling him an 'apologist'?

Michael Kenrick
178   Posted 09/02/2011 at 14:35:58

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Tony, you seem to have trouble reading...

I said "There is no change in affections or attachments" ? read it again, you obviously don't get it cos you keep harping back to your silly little 'examples' of critical comments that ? wow! change based on the display! ? when your real agenda appears to be to deny or denigrate valid post-match analysis by those who have watched the game. It's not something new: you seem to do it with some frequency on here and it's a negative stance that is certainly not appreciated.

I'm totally with Eugene on this "fickle" nonsense. Karl's idiotic comments at #147 started this off and it is elitist in exactly the way Eugene has characterized him ? brilliantly at times. Read #157 again ? bang on the nail.

Dave, according to my dictionary, an 'apologist' provides a defence by argument, an example given being a defence of Christianity. What can be offensive about that usage? The word could not be MORE appropriate in the way it is being used here.

People who believe or trust in Moyes or Kenwright, and put forward their reasons, usually by way of defense against attacks from those less inclined to believe or trust ? all done by way of argument. A perfect application of the word. To me, it conveys loyalty to a position, and the conviction to defend that position against all-comers. And in religious terms, that usually involves faith or belief in something that runs contrary to the apparent facts or revealed wisdom which some see but which are rejected as heresey by the true believers... the parallels with adherents of our Moyesiah are legion!

And Dave, I can't see how Post 150 is "a very obvious attempt to insult the people who had posted after being at the game" and "not expressing an opinion"? It's expressing bemusement at the arguments being offered by the Moyes apologists in his defence. Perhaps the reason you don't like it is because it's on a par with many of your put-downs???
Dave Wilson
179   Posted 09/02/2011 at 15:26:32

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Michael.

If somebody wants to deny or attack my God and I defend against all detractors on all points I am indeed an apologist.

If somebody wants to attack my football manager and defend the points I disagree with, that imo makes me open minded, for instance you wont find me ? or anybody else ? defending the starts we make every season. Although I support Moyes, but I can still draw up a lengthy list of his shortcomings.

The term 'apologist' is a derogatory and divisive term used by people who are unable to counter an argument on a particular point. If you don't agree with every criticism of DM, you should be considered an apologist... it's a preposterous notion, you are for, or against, no grey areas and if you are not an apologist you cannot praise Moyes after Saturdays games because... well only apologist can do that. Somebody who follows blindly? ... what???

The open minded will see both positives and negatives, those with closed and already made up minds will see only the latter.

As for put downs, I like to think I try to put down the point rather than the individual, that got me into trouble. But if the day arrives when I can only counter an argument with by name-calling I`ll probably withdraw from all types of discussion and become a hermit ? take that smile off your face.

The majority were not offering a defence for Moyes, he didn't need it this time: we won. They were giving what they see as praise where it's due.
Tony J Williams
180   Posted 09/02/2011 at 18:36:44

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Michael, please take your own advice and re-read my post.

I got into the debate just about the meaning of the word 'fickle'. I couldn't care less about poster critique in regards to the game, everyone has their different views and as I said, mine change within the game itself. Nothing to do with "silly little examples" . Without examples, there is no proof or backing up of a point.

Then again I am labelled an apologist etc etc... that's ok, just don't call me fickle then..... strewth!
Karl Masters
181   Posted 09/02/2011 at 21:51:19

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Bloody Hell!

Is this ' fickle ' thing still chuntering on behind the scenes with the man who runs the site the Chief Antagonist it seems?

Michael. Like football, life and how we interact as people is based on opinions and beliefs. We'll never all agree, some people can accept that, others can't.

But isn't that the whole point of your Site? For people to express opinions and others to react.

I don't believe myself any better or worse than another Evertonian.

Elitist? Never!

Irritated by people who are seemingly always complaining, who can never offer a constructive alternative ( Eugene's suggestion was to employ, in his words, '' a goon '' - Holloway - as our next Manager to '' freshen the place up a bit'') ? Most certainly.

I can express that opinion just as much as he can use his F-word littered 'genial' replies to express his opinions about me.

I can take it, I'm a grown man. It's good healthy debate even if it seems that some of you just love an argument no matter what. Being fickle is something we all do from time to time whether it's doubt our football team, fancy your wife's best friend, don't turn up to a friend's social event, etc,etc. It's hardly crime of the century!

As far as I am concerned, I respect your views, and I would expect that you can respect mine. I agree with some of your views ( eg Kirkby ),but I don't agree with the 'woe is me' angle from many posters. Maybe they need to just get it off their chests? Who knows? I can respect that, but I should also be able to disagree with it, should I not? Or is the Editor a Censor only happy to endorse people with his views whilst castigating anybody he disagrees with?

Anyway, time to move on as far as I am concerned.
Eugene Ruane
182   Posted 10/02/2011 at 05:42:55

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Karl.

"Bloody Hell! Is this ' fickle ' thing still chuntering on behind the scenes"

Yes it is Karl....particularly at post 181.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
183   Posted 10/02/2011 at 06:18:25

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Karl, what I like about the discussions on this site is reading through the views, often contrary, that people have about Everton, the players, the manager, the Chairman... everything.

What I don't like reading is fans making out that they are better fans than other fans. That's what's divisive. That's what's offensive. That's what's abusive.

Most contributors address the issues at hand regarding the things most of us are interested in ? all things Everton. That, I like... no matter what their opinions, whether we agree or disagree ? no problem.

A few fans decide it's their prerogative to have a go at other fans who contribute to this site. That I am increasingly annoyed by.

Why do you have to do it? Karl, Dave, Tony ? just look at this discussion; you are all setting your selves up as "proper" fans and denigrating the responses of other fans ? responses that I believe and maintain they as Everton fans are perfectly entitled to make. Furthermore, I am protective of these fans expressing their opinions, [almost] no matter how wacky ? see recent defences of one Richard Dodd to some of the more abusive stuff.

The problem is a simple one: we all think we are right and we are not inclined to change our views when someone challenges them. Well, I'm challenging your pretentious tendencies to denigrate other fans using this site.

Just think about that for a minute, please.

If they express their opinion about something regarding Everton, why not address the issue and show how there is an alternate view, rather than castigating the person for having that view?

And sadly, Karl, your posts are for me perfect examples of such unwarranted castigation ? starting with the first one: "something some of the less tolerant on here people ought to remember" ? Why? Who the fuck do you think you are telling other people what they ought to be thinking? ? And ending with this 'woe is me' bollocks. Again, you decide some fans should be happier than they are... WTF?!?! Who has given you the right to make such determinations?

Why can't you just accept that the wide diversity of fans we have on here are going to exhibit a wide diversity of opinions? Instead of attacking them directly, as you do persistently...

As you might be able to tell by now, that attitude drives me mad!

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