Liverpool hopes the truth will finally out

, 12 September, 139comments  |  Jump to most recent
Independent panel's Hillsborough findings due for release

The city of Liverpool will stand united today amid hopes that the families of 96 Liverpool fans who lost their lives at Hillsborough 23 years ago will finally see the truth of what happened that tragic April day fully exposed.

An independent panel of experts, chaired by James Jones, the Bishop of Liverpool, will deliver the results of a 20-month investigation involving some 450,000 documents relating to the tragedy, one whose cause has never been satisfactorily explained or acknowledged.

Many expect the panel's findings to reveal critical errors and incompetence by the authorities and a potential cover-up in their aftermath. Though the Lord Taylor Report concluded that the actions of senior authorities were a direct cause of the disaster, no one was ever disciplined or sanctioned and a verdict of accidental death reached in the flawed inquest into Hillsborough meant that the real truth has remained hidden.

The victims' families and Liverpudlians as a whole are also hoping that this latest investigation exonerates those supporters, who, as The Guardian put it, "were maligned as drunk, ticketless and unruly, a portrayal perpetrated by police and articulated by the Sun newspaper under the headline: 'The truth'."

Hillsborough brought together Red and Blue in shared grief and Evertonians have stood by their Red neighbours during a fight for justice that has, incomprehensibly, lasted over two decades. They will stand together again today hoping that what they have always believed to be the real truth is finally uncovered.

Everton FC offered a tribute to the victims by displaying a "Remembering the 96" jersey in the window of the megastore today.

Quotes or other material sourced from The Guardian



Reader Comments (139)

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer


Nick Entwistle
1 Posted 12/09/2012 at 06:47:33
Watching from afar 'Liverpool hopes the truth will finally out'. Unfortunately that should read 'Liverpool hopes for their desired version of the truth to come out' instead.

It appears only outright blame on Thatcher's government and police will satisfy Merseyside and if that doesn't come forth then cries of 'whitewash' will happen.

The truth will come out, but people should be prepared to accept it, whatever shape it takes.

Tom Dodds
2 Posted 12/09/2012 at 08:19:16
Yes Nick 107;
The version which you will believe under the missguided jingoed epithet of 'my country right or wrong'


It seems.

Alan Williams
3 Posted 12/09/2012 at 08:58:53
Hi Nick,

I think you will find that the government was also lied too at the time and the cover up of sorts was done at local level via the emergency services. Apparently they agreed their stories on mass and kept to it so the government was told what the local Chief Inspector wanted them to hear. Part of this came out in the report but it’s the notes and files for the day’s happenings which is most prevalent. Thereafter it was opinion or lies manifested from the original untruths.

Let's hope this puts closure for those concerned as I don’t have the stomach to put up with it for another 20 years. Football has changed a lot since then so there is also a positive legacy from the disaster which doesn’t seem to get mentioned much. I take my son (8 years old) home and away to watch EFC; I wouldn’t have been able to do that in 1989 as all you did was fight your way to and from the away games, terrible really when you look back.

I now look forward to LFC and its fans lobbying for justice for the Heysel Families too...
Phil Sammon
4 Posted 12/09/2012 at 09:26:00
Very well said, Nick.

Danny Kewley
5 Posted 12/09/2012 at 09:07:55
Seeing a couple of Mothers on the news whose kids died on that awful day, really made me sad. For their sake and all the other parents+families,relatives+friends that the truth can be delivered today.
Kev Johnson
6 Posted 12/09/2012 at 09:34:28
I recall as a teenager standing right against that wall to watch the League Cup final replay in the mid-70s. That was before the fences, of course. When the disaster happened I felt like it could have been me, or someone I knew, if circumstances were different. I have nothing but respect for the way LFC fans have pursued this.

It may be, as Nick says, that "the truth" is something different from what people were expecting. I don't know. I guess we'll find out today.

Peter Laing
7 Posted 12/09/2012 at 10:11:39
It's not a case of Liverpool's desired version of the truth, Nick Entwistle, as you know an independent panel has been set up to examine the evidence and official papers and documents and the subsequent findings will be reported today.

Your comments are quite frankly disgusting on such a solemn day; as a Liverpool resident and Evertonian, obviously I am able to appreciate the scars and injustice felt by family and friends who have been affected by this tragedy and the pervading injustice that has followed has only served to deepen the wounds.

I am glad you are watching from afar as your comments in this city are not welcome — now fuck off, you're a disgrace.
Shaun Kinnair
8 Posted 12/09/2012 at 10:12:33
I feel what ever happens today, it still won't be good enough. I just hope it is and we move on but then again if my family member was one of the dead then maybe I'd think differently.

What ever happens today as Nick Entwistle says, it won't be good enough for some.

Barry Rathbone
9 Posted 12/09/2012 at 10:07:31
Trouble is the event has taken on the attributes of a football match, the "LFC, YNWA" has been counter productive IMO.

When you see it as 96 innocent people tragically killed at a sporting venue caused in good part by mistakes of the authorities it's a cause everyone supports, particularly when lies abound protecting said authorities.

Unfortunately the hijacking by gormless football chanting morons with, I suspect, different agenda it becomes something else.

Danny Broderick
10 Posted 12/09/2012 at 10:19:11
Extremely poor comments from Nick, in very bad taste. Ditto Phil Sammon. Why can't you just respect what the families have been through, and why they want history to correctly record the reasons for the tragedy?

If it had been caused by drunken fans, this country would never have been able to stage an event again, as people drink at any public event in England.

I am really embarrassed by your comments. Evertonians lost friends and family members on that day too.
Phil Sammon
11 Posted 12/09/2012 at 10:30:25
Nobody is disrespecting the victim's family's. It was a tragedy and I think everyone accepts that it was avoidable.

The police have accepted their part in it and apologised on two occasions. What about the Hillsborough stand architects? What about the FA? What about the shoddy building work? What about ticketless fans? What about drunkenness?

It was a football match in the 80's. There were certainly drunk fans there. They didn't mean to be involved in a crush. They didn't know they were pushing people, who were pushing people, who were pushing people to their deaths.

How can you put that on one man's shoulders?

It doesn't help now that JFT96 is now almost a Liverpool FC catchphrase. 90% of the people who shout it don't even know what they're asking for.

Interestingly the 'c-word' is currently trending on twitter in relation to Hillsborough. It says a lot about the people who have hijacked the cause.

Justice for the 96, by all means. But this blinkered view and bandwagoning must stop.

Danny Broderick
12 Posted 12/09/2012 at 10:48:24
Phil,

Of course there were drunk fans. Of course there were fans without tickets. This happens at every major event there has ever been. What happened was, instead of managing the congestion outside the ground and delaying the kick off, the police opened an extra gate behind the Leppings Lane end. We all know the outcome.

When have the police ever apologised?

Of course the FA are also culpable, giving LFC the smaller stands wasn't the best of ideas was it? You really should do some research. Your assertion that people 'pushing people, who were pushing people, who were pushing people to their deaths' is below contempt.

Danny Broderick
13 Posted 12/09/2012 at 10:56:00
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730
Paul David
14 Posted 12/09/2012 at 10:59:48
I find it hard to believe that all the relevant information has been passed over to the independant panel.
Tony J Williams
15 Posted 12/09/2012 at 10:53:25
Peter, the lad is expressing his view. It wasn't put across in a nasty vindictive way at all.

No matter how devastating this tragedy was, there are pockets of supporters that will not be happy unless one person is blamed totally.

There were mistakes by police officers, big ones, to err is to be human and there were drunk fans, there always is before a semi, I was wasted when we played Man U, there were ticketless fans, I saw a lad bunk in right in front of me when we played Chelsea in the final.

It was a culmination of bad decisions AND drunk ticketless fans trying to get in to see their beloved team play a game of togger.

There was nothing disgraceful about Nick's comments at all, he just expressed a view that many have but are too touchy feely to express.

Pablo Connelly
16 Posted 12/09/2012 at 11:08:57
Some people on here need to think through before adding really poor comments. Try and realise that plenty of Evertonians who lost family that day will read what you say.

This is not about 'accepting the truth' whatever that may be. It is about answering unanswered questions. It is about accountability being forced upon the incompetent who cowarded away from the accountability 23 years ago.

In those last 23 years, only the fans have been made accountable. That now has to change. If it doesn't then the fight will rightly go on. I know this is a forum but if you don't understand these things or you don't have any affinity with the city, then it might be best to keep silly comments to yourself on this one. JF96.
Derek Thomas
17 Posted 12/09/2012 at 11:00:08
Like most of these 'accidents' there is seldom one cause but many. I don't think that a 20% this 22% that 18% the other etc etc 'blame game' report will do any one any favours...and nothing will do the victims and their families any good.

Factions will seize on this % or that % saying no this is wrong it should be more ( or less ) and nothing will be solved

If it is possible what I would like to see is an accurate version of what actually happened.

On a personal note:

My Dad and his mates went to Rome and saw the police do nothing about the attacks pre-game, in fact set the dogs on the out-numbered supporters when they fought back.

Walked into Heysel, saw the bodies being pulled out, and walked out again and drove home.

On the day of the semi-final he just decided in the morning not to go, unbeknownst to me at the time, but much to my relief when I rung home to check.

On Sunday afternoon we watched a top Police spokesman giving it the "...it's early days yet, blah blah, more information, blah blah, full facts blah blah" etc etc.

And we both said it together along the lines of... aka "we're going to go away and get our stories straight".

Kevin Tully
18 Posted 12/09/2012 at 11:14:14
The whole incident has been covered up by the authorities from start to finish.

Football fans were teated like criminals in the Eighties. Anyone who went to the match will know what I mean.

The police changed statements, and the Government of the day were happy to go along with their version of events at any cost, and place the blame squarely at the feet of Liverpool fans.

I hope the likes of Kelvin McKenzie, Thatcher and her ministers, are all held to account.

Young kids & girls lost their lives that day - and Liverpool as a city was branded by politicians forever.

Justice for these fans will help to ease the pain for parents & relatives.

We should all be on their side today, as one city.

Derek Thomas
19 Posted 12/09/2012 at 11:20:30
BTW, he never to went to another game again for years (and that was at Goodison one Boxing Day) and his season ticket for that season was still in the draw where he left it the day he died.

All the family (red and Blue) went away to Cyprus on holiday for the non-event final and didn't even watch it on the box in the bar, choosing to play snooker until it was all over.

Brent Stephens
20 Posted 12/09/2012 at 11:11:56
Nick #107 says "Watching from afar 'Liverpool hopes the truth will finally out'. Unfortunately that should read 'Liverpool hopes for their desired version of the truth to come out' instead".

I winced when I read that, as the very first sentiment in the very first post in this thread. Callous.

We won't know until these docs are released what the current truth is. But we seem to know even before this that some very disgusting and dishonest and criminal things happened - such as police notebooks having been rewritten. If I were the parent of a young lad who died at H'boro and knew the deceit already known, I would want to know the full truth. So I respect their search for that truth, backed by the Bishop of Liverpool etc etc.

If what comes out is generally accepted as the full and final truth (if there ever can be such a thing), and some of the 96 families and others don't accept that, well ok we can comment then. But not now; let's not guess at what they might or might not do.

Kev Johnson
21 Posted 12/09/2012 at 11:27:33
KT (139) - didn't football fans sometimes behave like criminals in the 80s? There seemed to be a fashion for violence, whether racist, nationalist or just plain mentalist. The causes for that, and the way the Tory government deal with it, is another matter, which I don't think we'll be able to do justice to on a TW thread. But criminal behaviour - and I mean nasty, genuinely anti-social stuff - did happen. So (rightly or wrongly) the fences went up, and we know what happened next...

By the way, I agree with everything else you say.

Adam Cunliffe
22 Posted 12/09/2012 at 11:20:09
Despite only being 18, and not having even been on this Earth that day, Hillsborough has always been close to my heart. One of my Grandad's is a huge red who used to watching Liverpool all the time. After that day, he's never been to a Liverpool match since. My Grandma helped man the Hillsborough help lines, trying to speak to and calm relatives of others who were seeking information on loved ones. Whilst at the same time, his future Son in law (My Dad), was at Villa Park watching us. His joy at us winning, quickly turning into worry about my Mum's Father. 'Fuck, Billy's at that game' was his first reaction.

That day changed my Dad too. A young Everton fan realised that football isn't a matter of life and death. Neither My Grandad Bill or my Dad went to Wembley for the final. They watched it together on tele whilst my Mum and Nan went shopping. Both have said since that the result didn't even matter. I get the impression that my Dad and Grandad weren't that close until that day, but the realisation that both were lucky, one way or another, to be still be there brought them together. As my Dad said to me the other day watching that documentary on ITV – 'It could so easily have been us that day'.

And you know what the irony of it all is? This Saturday I'm moving out. To Sheffield. And one of the first things I'll do is visit the Hillsborough memorial garden and lay an old Everton shirt of mine down. The truth will come out one way or another. I hope it's today. JFT96.

Alan McGuffog
23 Posted 12/09/2012 at 11:25:03
Danny you say that there are drunk and ticketless fans at all major events. Er no, there aren't. One and I emphasise, one, of the factors that contributed to the disaster was that people expected to spend as long a time in the ale house as possible and then still get into the ground for kick-off. One pint or seven is immaterial. How do I know this? ...because I was doing the same at Villa Park the same day.

I had three or four with my mates in a boozer close to the ground, got into the Holte End and proceeded to slide onto a step behind the goal at two minutes to three, thereby probably causing the guys in front to move down a step or two. These guys may have been there in good time. But hey, thats what we did at the match in those days.

I don't consider myself a yobo , I'm a middle class educated fella and I enjoy the theatre and the opera... I've never seen anyone turn up for the curtain full of ale. Mate of mine goes to Wimbledon every year... likewise.

My point, Danny, is that the culture of watching football was totally different from other events.
Nick Entwistle
24 Posted 12/09/2012 at 11:31:01
Peter Laing, I didn't feel the need to respond when reading your post but then you told me to fuck off for being a disgrace.

What the truth is, and what people hope it to be could possibly be two very different things, and yes, possibly the same thing. But no one knows the truth as of right now and if it doesn't fit people's desires when revealed then this should be accepted in the same manner as if it gave you everything you hope for.

Your post only serves to underline my point. That only total and outright blame on the establishment and total and outright exoneration of the fans is good enough for some people, and nothing in-between is acceptable.

I hope whatever the report says that as much closure that can come from this will come from this.

Brian Denton
25 Posted 12/09/2012 at 11:40:01
You can be damned sure that if it had happened to another section of society - say at a Rugby Union match - justice would have been achieved far more quickly. When I saw some of the transcripts of the Coroner proceedings, and the sheer contempt with which the bereaved families were treated by the authorities, I felt an anger that no amount of comments like the first in this thread will ever overcome.
Danny Broderick
26 Posted 12/09/2012 at 12:15:42
Alan,

I do the same myself mate! But the difference is, every time I have entered the stadium 2 minutes before kick off time, it has been safe to do so. By opening that gate at Hillsborough, the police created an entrance to the stadium that caused an accident. The kick-off should have been delayed. Or, they should have carried on as they were, even if some fans missed the first 20 minutes or whatever.

By opening that gate behind the Leppings End, and then not directing those fans to the stands at the side of the pitch as opposed to behind the goal, they created a problem. And the fans got the blame.

Oh, and by the way, all scousers were tarred with the same brush. What was written in the Sun was an attack on the people of Liverpool, with intended attacks about pickpocketing the dead etc. It was sickening, and Everton fans should not need to be reminded of this. JFT96.

Peter Lavvaf
27 Posted 12/09/2012 at 12:05:31
I am stunned by some of the comments posted on here today tbh. Anyone with any semblance of intelligance can see that the ''official'' line, bandied around by the Thatcher govenment at the time is at best misguided and at worst represents one of the largest miscarraiges of justice perpetrated by any British govenment in history.

What happenned that day was a tragedy caused by the poor management of crowds, at an unfit for purpose stadium and rightly so leasons were learned. What followed however was the blackening of people's names who could not defend themselves. The very idea that accidental death was recorded on the birth certificates of the victims is sickening, and at the very least this should be changed to reflect the actual cause of death.
Peter Laing
28 Posted 12/09/2012 at 12:35:04
Do the right thing Nick and withdraw your initial despicable comments, the truth is now coming out and it doesn't fit your obvious agenda.
Peter Laing
29 Posted 12/09/2012 at 12:38:50
Not what the findings are revealing, Tony J.
Tony J Williams
30 Posted 12/09/2012 at 12:39:29
What agenda Peter?

The only controversy here is the strength of your post in response to Nick's opinion.

He hasn't cast doubt on the sheer heartache felt by the families, but on the fact that some sections will only be happy with the finger of blame being pointed solely at the police. They are the proximate cause but not the whole cause.

Michael Kenrick
31 Posted 12/09/2012 at 12:47:26
Sounds like Thatcher's government has been exonerated...
Peter Laing
32 Posted 12/09/2012 at 12:44:12
The smear campaign is over Tony, hopefully justice and closure will now happen for the families, Liverpool FC and the City of Liverpool. As an Evertonian regardless of the rivalry and obvious bitterness that exists between us, Hillborough transcends such issues and I stand shoulder to shoulder with them in their campaign for justice.
Brent Stephens
33 Posted 12/09/2012 at 12:52:05
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/12/hillsborough-disaster-report-panel-released-live
Danny Broderick
34 Posted 12/09/2012 at 12:52:05
The lies have been exposed!
Kevin Tully
35 Posted 12/09/2012 at 12:48:11
The fact that 116 out of 164 police officers changed their statements says it all.

They even took blood samples from children, trying to apportion blame FFS !!!

Shocking how the establishment treated these people.

Shame on all these people. They are the only scum involved - not the fans.

Paul David
36 Posted 12/09/2012 at 12:53:14
As I said in an earlier post, the only documents that will have been released will be what the goverment and South Yorkshire police deem fit. There is no chance the whole truth will have been revealed, it's been a disgusting cover-up from day one.
Brent Stephens
37 Posted 12/09/2012 at 12:55:52
From the Guardian: "Today's report is black and white. The Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster, he [Cameron] says".
Dave Charles
38 Posted 12/09/2012 at 12:58:12
Spot on Michael Kenrick @153. Cameron trying to worm his party out of any blame. Is there no shame to this lot?
Peter Laing
39 Posted 12/09/2012 at 13:07:37
Don't forget the Thatcher government of the day were largely indebted to organisations such as the South Yorkshire Police for their earlier work in crushing the miners strike in 84/85. The Police, elements of the media and those instructed by the government of the day ensured that a cover up happened.
Michael Kenrick
40 Posted 12/09/2012 at 13:10:02
Dave, I assume it's an outcome from the Independent Panel's findings, not Cameron worming.

Loathing of the great unwashed at the highest levels of government at the time was contexted on the battle with the miners five years earlier, and Thatcher's debt of gratitude to SYP for what they went through as they imposed order. Was the role that must have played in the Hillborough cover-up at the highest levels part of the Independent Panel's remit?

Brian Harrison
41 Posted 12/09/2012 at 13:10:12
I think that today's evidence from the report completely rubbishes the lies that this was the fault of the fans.

But quite clearly lays the blame on the corrupt police who altered their statements to make out that the fans were responsible. When it was their gross inefficiency that led to this disaster.

The emergency services also must shoulder their lack of ability to deal with this disaster, were if they had acted as they should many lives could and should have been saved.

The coroners who decided despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary that everybody was dead by 3:15pm.

The media and most of all the Sun newspaper for their disgusting and disgracefull reporting of the events, and in particular Kelvin McKenzie the editor who allowed this foul story to be printed.

Finally, I would know hope that the family, friends and relatives of the 96 now get the justice they so richly deserve.

Michael Kenrick
42 Posted 12/09/2012 at 13:24:11
"No documents disclosed on briefing by SYP given to Thatcher the day after." (I'm paraphrasing)

So there you have it, I'm guessing. Perhaps no documents exist; perhaps not. Cameron says everything was given to the Panel.

Chris Barnes
43 Posted 12/09/2012 at 13:23:12
There is no doubt that the families of the 96 hopefully will get closer to closure by today, and I sincerely hope they do.

What I am annoyed by, goes without saying the tragic loss of life and devastation of many Merseyside families, is that twat Kelvin MacKenzie constantly on TV passing off his forthright views on this, that and the other. He and anyone who worked for that shite newspaper at that time should be brought to book also. Why are they allowed to walk away scott free from the biggest amount of slander this country has ever seen?

At least from today, the truth (or some of it) will come out and answers can start being given. JFT96.
Michael Kenrick
44 Posted 12/09/2012 at 13:45:51
Cameron on the Conservative government led by Margaret Thatcher:

Mr Speaker, over all these years questions have been raised about the role of the government – including whether it did enough to uncover the truth.

It is certainly true that some of the language in the government
papers published today was insensitive.

But having been through every document – and every government document including Cabinet Minutes will be published – the Panel found no evidence of any government trying to conceal the truth.

At the time of the Taylor Report the then Prime Minister was briefed
by her private secretary that the defensive and – I quote - “close to
deceitful” behaviour of senior South Yorkshire officers was
“depressingly familiar.”

And it is clear that the then government thought it right that the
Chief Constable of South Yorkshire should resign.

But as the Rt Hon Member for Leigh has rightly highlighted,
governments then and since have simply not done enough to challenge publicly the unjust and untrue narrative that sought to blame the fans.

John Ford
45 Posted 12/09/2012 at 13:44:38
The swift alteration to both the police and ambulance staff witness statements is something which has never been acknowledged/confirmed until now.

Also the legal advice to the police at the time was to gather evidence 'under the assuptiom that you are the accused'.

Apparently Thatcher was concerned that the inquiry report would prove to be devastating for the SYP........indeed the same police who fought her battles at the miners' strike.

Si Cooper
46 Posted 12/09/2012 at 13:31:54
Cameron has said it was wrong that the families have had to wait so long to have the truth come to light. There is an implicit criticism of the government at the time for simply believing the information they got from the police and not instigating a robust inquiry that would have exposed the cover-ups.

Obviously (unfortunately) people are going to hide behind the "I had no reason not to believe what I was told." line, so there is surely nothing to be gained by trying to force apologies out of all who should.

Who amongst us wouldn't have gone through that gate when it was opened and pushed through into the nearest piece of terracing in our enthusiasm. None of what the fans did merited the subsequent behaviour of the authorities (and those whose job it was to hold them accountable) which was wholly done to deflect the blame they deserved.

Only practical thing left to do is have the 'accidental death' verdicts re-examined.

Danny Kewley
47 Posted 12/09/2012 at 14:30:15
Adam @ 143 that was a brilliant post son!
Steve Smith
48 Posted 12/09/2012 at 15:05:11
Well said, Adam #143

Nick Entwistle: You, like many others over the 23 years since this tragedy took place, have chosen to comment on a subject you know very little about it seems.

"Liverpools desired version of the truth"?....or not your truth do you mean?

Most people on Merseyside have known the truth for a long, long, time.

The families of the victims have known the truth for a long, long, time.

This battle for the truth wasn't just about having it confirmed to them, it was also about having it laid out in irrefutable black and white, by a completely independent and impartial panel, so that fucking imbeciles like you, may finally accept that the blame lies with the state and it's agencies and that some of those people should be held accountable for their actions.

Brian Denton
49 Posted 12/09/2012 at 15:27:59
Spot on Stteve Smith. Many people (including may I suggest some of the posters on here) cannot and will not accept the possibility that people in high places are prepared to lie and connive to head off a threat to 'the establishment'. They are the sort of people who say 'we are all middle class now' and call people who live in council houses 'chavs'.
Steve Brown
50 Posted 12/09/2012 at 15:25:45
Watching the Hillsbrough families news conference is extremely moving. After 23 years of calumnies, the truth is out and the extent of the systematic cover-up is more awful than I could imagine. Police, ambulance services, MPs, government, coroners all implicated, inventing lies and doctoring statements. 46 lives that could have been saved with more prompt action.

I do wonder whether any other tragedy of this extent would have been systematically covered up? My sense has always been that because it was people from Liverpool who died, because it was families of Liverpool that suffered made it OK - as it has been for all segments of society to repeat this debased truth and claim there must be some basis to it - like Nick Entwistle

There obviously was some political implication to it as Liverpool was a resolutely socialist city during a Thatcherite era, also widespread institutional prejudice against football as a sport of drunken hooligans and mobs.

For all of the contemptible apologists for this disgrace like Nick Enwhistle # who peddled these myths and lies.

But I hope we remember the 96 innocents who died, almost half of them under 21. Somebody's father, mother, son, daughter, friend, loved on.

Nick Entwistle
51 Posted 12/09/2012 at 15:41:44
Steve and Steve, read what I've posted again and you'll see, funnily enough, I never said people from Liverpool are liars and I love Maggie Thatcher.

If you want to tell me what lies and myths I've peddled or what I've not been unable to accept that's up to you but you'll have a hard time finding anything.

My second post should adequately help you out on my position, which admittedly is better than my awkward 'desired version' comment which can easily be chosen to mean something more than it meant to.

What we've heard today is what many of us have expected to hear. Me included.

Brian Denton
53 Posted 12/09/2012 at 15:51:07
You can't have it both ways Nick. You say in #190 that you heard today what you expected to hear. In post #107 you say "It appears only outright blame on Thatcher's government and police will satisfy Merseyside and if that doesn't come forth then cries of 'whitewash' will happen." I would say that the Report has said exactly that.

So which is it? You expected to hear something (outright blame on the police etc) which you believe to be the false narrative which Liverpool fans feel they deserve? Or did you expect to hear something which justified your view that this narrative was false?

Steve Brown
54 Posted 12/09/2012 at 15:53:18
Strangely enough people from Liverpool can read Nick, including me. You are absolutely typical of the 'nuanced' perspective that people from outside this city have felt comfortable in peddling for 23 years.

That the people of Liverpool would only accept a report that validated their version of what happened, that our response was bitter, illogical and hysterical. That it was the desired truth we were after and not the simple truth. Wrong, all the family of the dead asked for was simple honesty about how their loved one died and they finally got it today after some many years.

Your original post tried to put an angle on the events of Hillsbrough and the deaths of the 96 fans that the people of this city have had to suffer for years. Don't try and backtrack from your original posts because the devastating evidence from today has proven them to wrong.


Brian Denton
55 Posted 12/09/2012 at 16:05:07
Steve Brown (#194). Masterly post.
Steve Smith
56 Posted 12/09/2012 at 15:55:21
Nick Entwistle:
Both of your posts allude to what you think about the tragedy, otherwise you wouldn't have made the first post and, this in the second........

"That only total and outright blame on the establishment and total and outright exoneration of the fans is good enough for some people, and nothing in-between is acceptable"

shows that you know nothing about what this battle for justice has been about, the families of the victims ALWAYS knew the victims and supporters would be exonerated from blame. The evidence was always there to prove this, they always knew who was to blame.

This battle has been about those guilty parties holding their hands up and accepting that blame, it's also been about educating people like you who cannot or will not accept the real truth of what happened on that day.

Peter Lavvaf
57 Posted 12/09/2012 at 16:09:53
As was expected, the worst football disaster this country has seen has today been found to also be this country's biggest govenmental cover-up ever to be unmasked. Cause of death MUST now be changed for the victims and a new inquest carried out as a minimum. Criminal procedings should now be brought against the Police involved. Only then will the families of the victims be able to rest.
Kevin Jones
58 Posted 12/09/2012 at 16:25:21
I've debated over the last few hours wheather to post this or not. Anyway I decided to get it off my chest, Please note I do not pretend to understand how the families of the 96 feel and can not imagine how I would react if this had happened to one of my loved ones.

The Hillsborough Tragedy is, and always has been, a very emotive issue. I lost a good mate that day, a mate who I actually lent the money to to get his ticket, one reason I don't go in for the hatred and bile that rises it's ugly head on Derby Day. Having said that I might now upset some of you with what I'm going to say. If I do I apologise but it's what I believe and I will stick to it.

What exactly is everybody looking for ? Is it one person to point a finger at and say, it's all your fault Mr Policeman, your fault Mr Politician, your fault Mr F.A, your fault fellow fans. . The Copper who decided to open the gates has stated that if he hadn't a lot more would have perished. There is no way of singling out one person to blame. Yes what they did after the tragedy was disgraceful, with cover ups and lies aplenty.

But what happened is exactly what happened, nobody meant or wanted anyone to get hurt that day let alone die. It was a catalogue of events, although avoidable, that happened and cost the lives of 96 people. Nobody wanted it, the same way nobody wanted the Herald of Free Enterprise to sink, nobody wanted the Bradford fire, nobody wanted Munich 58, nobody wanted Concorde to crash, nobody wanted the Ibrox Disasters of 1902 and 1971, nobody wanted the Summerland disaster in 1971, but they happened.. It wasn't terrorism, it wasn't somebody purposely setting out to hurt and maim. As I've said it was a catalogue of events the ended in the death of 96 Liverpool supporters, it could have been us or any other team that day.

If, and it's a big if, they do find someone to blame, the poor souls who lost their lives will still be dead. Please let them rest in peace, put this behind us and move on. As long as people mass in great numbers there will always be tragedies. History is dotted with such events going back hundreds, if not thousands of years, I've listed a more recent ones above. None of it is meant and most of them are avoidable, but they still happen. It's life and death in it's most tragic form.

Peter Laing
59 Posted 12/09/2012 at 16:28:33
Nick Entwistle in my opinion joins the likes of Kelvin McKenzie, David Duckenfield, the Coroner and Lord Justice Taylor in prefaring to pervert the course of justice and peddle an alternative view on the events of Hillsborough. He cannot even have the dignity to apologise for his earlier comments as it is obviously beneath him.
Nick Entwistle
60 Posted 12/09/2012 at 16:27:34
Steve and Steve, you're both presuming too much.

I was stating that if 'outright blame...' was not delivered by the inquiry then it should still be accepted.

Don't go thinking therefor I was implying this means a transference of blame from the state to the fan.

I'm not sure how much the government are implicated with these first reports, but many were seeing this as a police/Thatcher cover-up and she seems to be removed from criticism. Won't stop some still calling it a cover up.

Nick Entwistle
61 Posted 12/09/2012 at 16:41:34
Stop Peter, you're making a twat of yourself.
Barry Rathbone
62 Posted 12/09/2012 at 16:42:00
Kev Jones

Good post, same question crossed my mind about what the "goal" is.

Alan Williams
63 Posted 12/09/2012 at 15:58:23
Before people get carried away in the emotion of what has come out, which is truly shocking, please don’t forget all clubs especially LFC has history of death and violence in abundance with their fans' behaviour prior to this incident. Whilst 96 innocent people died due to the complacency of the emergency services, every football fan including Liverpool fans played a part in this tragedy by sitting by and seeing 10 years of violence on the terraces lead to fans treating opposition fans with hatred and contempt.

In my mind this was a disaster waiting to happen and purely by coincidence LFC were the victims on this day. Yes, blame the police or whoever you wish and I’m sure this will rightly be done in the future but every football fan of the 80s with their poor behaviour contributed to this disaster; we were treated like animals because at times we all behaved like animals so whilst I see the finger pointing directly at SYP, me as a fan of the eighties have to realise we helped create this scenario.

Football has changed completely since this terrible day, and the legacy of these 96 souls is extremely positive. We as a fan, club, government and emergency services have all learnt to act in a proper manner when attending sporting events, whilst today we reflect on the loses, it hasn’t been in vain.

I was sat at Villa Park on this day in the little side stand which had TVs and we could see at a distance what was happening but when I asked a fellow blue what was going on he said “kopites fighting again” – that was everybody’s perception at the time, in hindsight that is terrible but sadly very true. This is not a conspiracy against our city – that is total BS! It took something so terrible to make everybody change their attitude across the whole country.
Aiden Jones
64 Posted 12/09/2012 at 16:48:43
I think you can take Nick Entwistle's comments a couple of ways but he has explained what he meant by them , others seem just to like their own interpretation.

To compare him to Kelvin McKenzie is ridiculous.

Kevin Tully
65 Posted 12/09/2012 at 16:49:49
Nick #204,

The enquiry was never set up to make judgements. The panel were asked some pertinent questions by reporters today, and they have stated they are not there to make any " value judgements "

Their brief was to uncover the evidence as papers were released by the authorities, and present it on behalf of the families.

It is now up to the Attorney General and the High Court as to whether there will be any further actions.

Steve Smith
66 Posted 12/09/2012 at 16:44:08
Nick:
The report states the police and emergency services made "strenuous attempts" to deflect the blame for the disaster onto innocent supporters.

That Sun story "The Truth" came from a Sheffield news agency being briefed by .......South Yorkshire Police and a local Conservative MP.
The report finds that this was part of police efforts 'to develop and publicise a version of events that focused on allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence.'

It is a cover up, at the highest levels, and grounds exist to bring charges against a number of people for perverting the course of justice.

Kevin Hudson
67 Posted 12/09/2012 at 17:01:02
This to Nick Entwistle,

In 1995, I spent 2 months workiing on Jimmy Mcgovern's "Hillsborough."

I worked alongside the three real-life families depicted in the programme, and in particular, with the Spearritt family, who's fourteen year-old son, Adam, was one of the 96, and his story was featured.

No "desired version." They simply wanted their story told, and the honest facts unambiguously established.

Thanks.

Peter Laing
68 Posted 12/09/2012 at 17:14:28
Nick I would suggest that the only person who has made a twat of himself is you as indicated by the condemnation that you have quite rightly received.
Brian Denton
69 Posted 12/09/2012 at 17:13:43
Kevin Jones/Barry Rathbone: the 'goal' is to obtain an admission that a sustained campaign of lies was instituted from the start, and that the bereaved and their families were treated by people in power with a mixture of contempt and inhumanity.
This was a noble goal.

Nobody, but nobody, has the right to adopt a 'let bygones be bygones' approach. This whole episode was a stain on our nation, the authorities and the legal system of our country.

Barry Rathbone
70 Posted 12/09/2012 at 17:25:10
Brian, does that mean today sees the end of it then?
Steve Smith
71 Posted 12/09/2012 at 17:29:30
Barry, I would say today is the beginning, the fight for real justice starts tomorrow when the attorney general starts reviewing the report to see if there are grounds for charging people with offences, and also apply to the high court to quash the original inquest and instigate a new one.
Brian Denton
72 Posted 12/09/2012 at 17:44:14
Barry, how can you possibly read my "Nobody, but nobody, has the right to adopt a 'let bygones be bygones' approach" to mean that "today sees the end of it then" ?
Barry Rathbone
73 Posted 12/09/2012 at 17:49:57
Brian because you were answering what the "goal" was and clearly there's more to it.
Kase Chow
74 Posted 12/09/2012 at 17:50:03
Normally fellow Evertonians exhibit great intelligence on toffeeweb. This thread has shown at best insensitivity by some and at worst, utter stupidity.

I hate Liverpool football club but some of my best mates support Liverpool.

What happened that day was a tragedy that was nothing but sad. It could easily have happened to us.

They lost ppl they loved and then were told their behaviour caused their own deaths. They were also told that fellow fans robbed the dying and urinated on the dead.

Fking hell, if I lost someone I loved and then heard their name dragged through the mud, I'd want the truth too. Not my 'version' of the truth (have some respect Nick), but the actual truth. Isn't that worth fighting tooth & nail for?

Some of the comments on this thread are pretty ignorant

Ray Roche
75 Posted 12/09/2012 at 17:40:16
Kevin Jones @199

A good, thoughtfull post.
Brian Denton @216.
Let's hope that by achieving that noble goal, as you so eloquently put it, will help the bereaved familes gain some form of satisfaction and be able to move on with their lives.

Ray Roche
76 Posted 12/09/2012 at 18:07:27
http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/picture-evertons-public-display-of-support-for-the-liverpool-hillsborough-victims-int-he-goodison-club-shop/
Kev Johnson
77 Posted 12/09/2012 at 18:20:47
I hope the sincere and heartfelt sense of unity with LFC fans shown by people on this thread can carry on to the next derby and beyond.

Or is that hopelessly idealistic?

Kev Johnson
78 Posted 12/09/2012 at 18:20:47
I hope the sincere and heartfelt sense of unity with LFC fans shown by people on this thread can carry on to the next derby and beyond.

Or is that hopelessly idealistic?

Paul Ferry
79 Posted 12/09/2012 at 18:16:16
Peter Laing (#202) – you are a fucking disgrace lad, to add Nick's name to that roll-call of deep and fundamental shame a d blame is fucking despicable and you should have the integrity to apologize.

I honestly think that there is something in this "it was Liverpool" line. Anyone, like me, unfortunate enough to come of age under Thatcher in our gritty city knows what I'm knocking on about.

The treatment of Liverpool BEFORE Hillsborough was a disgrace. Thatcher never forgave us for the Toxteth riots; for holding out against the council tax; and for having an overall attitude (at least that it how it was presented to her in the press and elsewhere) of defiance and standing alone. Going to university in the 1980s, there was actually a lot of respect for the fact that I came from Liverpool. Not in Number 10, apart from Heseltine. He came to the city after Toxteth and his diagnosis was of impoverishment and deliberate neglect by withdrawing firms and government.

Thatcher never once visited Liverpool in her entire despicable reign (I am right about that aren't I?). That fat smug cunt Howe told the cabinet to abandon the city in the midst of the dustbin strike, we know that now.

And in Thatcher's warped mind that strike and the city morphed into the miner's strike (like many, I climbed aboard minivans to heard off to Lancs picket lines and later Selby). Let's not forget how the South Yorkshire Police treated decent striking miners: remember the scenes, leaning down the fucking cowards from their horses to beat anyone in sight.

Hillsborough. I was at Villa; one of the best and then worst days of my life. Hillsborough: Thatcher's and Howe's already set-in-stone attitude to our gritty city, abandoning us, letting us rot (this was the time when the 'Sign on, Sign on ... ' shite began; scousers were good-for-nothings for the most part (although let's wheel out that cunt Liverpool MP who turned the blame on the kopites), Derek Hattons everywhere, a police force full of thugs as we saw in 1984-85. These were the prejudices and caricatures swimming round in the days after Hillsborough: oh they're at it again, whitewash, blackwash, fucking bastard lying coppers and higher-ups and all of them.

I wonder, if this had been Chelsea playing say Norwich at Villa Park in a semi if the same sort of blinkered mind-made-up-never-mind-what-actually-happened about the good folks of Liverpool would have been quite different in response. I think it would be. Giving a ten-year-old lad an alcohol test: fucking shameful. And remember later, the same set of attitudes about Liverpool burst to the surface over the appalling Jamie Bulger killing: only in Liverpool, right. The Sun had another hey-day.

Through thick and thin, the Merseyside music, drama, screenplays, novels, press articles, non-fiction writing, poems, kept on coming. Relentless. In adversity the city hit back, politically, culturally, socially.

Hillsborough bound us together like nothing else in my life up to now. I'm so happy for anyone with any link of any sort to the 96, from blood-ties to simple heartfelt support. A man-made tragedy; 41 could have been saved. It's a fucking tragedy. A city let down in part because of the broader context of the 1980s and the cunts in the cabinet. I can only look on with deep deep sympathy and admiration when those mothers and fathers spoke today with love and dedication for those they lost. Such dignity, such belief, such sources of inspiration.

Geoff Howe let it implode.

Karl Masters
80 Posted 12/09/2012 at 18:23:07
I have read some silly posts on here over the years, but the first one by Nick Entwhistle takes the biscuit.

Of course, all people want is the truth. To many of us, including people like myself living away from Liverpool, it was clear that there was some sort of cover up, massaging of the details etc and that we were not told everything.

I was at the other semi at Villa Park and I know that had those little balls come out of the semui final draw just slightly differently, I could have been behind that goal at Hillsborough. In those days, the big matches were a carnival day out and yes, many fans had plenty to drink and yes, terraces were dangerous. But, when you read that crap in The Sun about fans urinating near bodies and generally being portrayed as animals you just knew a Merseyside Cup Semi was not like that.

We, as football fans were already treated like animals and Thatcher was desperate to bring in her Fottball ID card scheme ( that was shelved after Hillsborough as it would delay people getting in if computers failed ). To my mind, if you look for motives for the authorities standing by whilst the SYP covered it all up, you can point at Thatcher owing them after the Miners Strike and she hardly had a like for the City of Liverpool after Hatton and Militant Tendency made her look stupid during the 80's and persuaded one of her softer Ministers ( name escapes me for now ) to hand over a load of regeneration grants out of the Government coffers, while she was happy to let the City decay as a slapdown to ' lazy, workshy Scousers' who had brought it all on themsleves. I don't know her thoughts, but it does kind of fit. At present, the Panel seem to state there is no direct link to senior Govt, but all of us should want is to know the real happenings.

The extent of the cover up now coming out is appalling and the whole country should want to know the truth, Nick, not just some embittered old moaners in Liverpool as your post implies. For me, the most shocking thought is that it seems that up to 41 of the 96 could possibly have survived had the authorities got their act together.

Ray Roche
81 Posted 12/09/2012 at 18:58:34
Karl, wasn't it Heseltine who made the regeneration of the Albert Dock and that area possible through the grant scheme?
Karl Masters
82 Posted 12/09/2012 at 19:02:24
Yes Ray, I think it was. He also famously stated that planting trees would make it all seem more pleasant and all those trees got planted on Everton brow and all over the City. Not much consolation if you were unemployed!!!

These days it is striking actually how green Liverpool is in the Summer, and remarkably 'Tarzan' has become something of a Champion for the City, so maybe he wasn't all bad after all.

Frankly though, you only have to cast your minds back a year or two to see the jaundiced, stereotypical view of Liverpool is still alive in Tory-land with Boris Johnson's ill chosen comments.

As a man living in Kent, I can tell you that sadly the Kelvin McKenzie, Harry Enfield, Bread etc image of Liverpool is still alive in many people's minds down here. This is more due to a laziness in many people's minds to search out the real truth than any malice. Just as people in Britain think Germans are like humourless robots or Italians are cowards, some people just accept whatever description they read or see on TV and think it must be true. With that in mind, I think it's vital that the whole truth comes out and that Merseyside football fans can finally establish 'The real Truth' and not that disgraceful Sun version of events.

Steve Smith
83 Posted 12/09/2012 at 19:03:20
It was Heseltine Ray, in spite of Thatcher, rather than because of her.

I agree with Karls last point, I was appalled to read that 41 of those victims could have survived under different circumstances.

Reflecting on todays disclosures, it seems this really is the beginning of the end in the fight for justice for those people who died and, as an Evertonian, I am extremely proud to say that my name appears on both of the petitions that got us to this day.

RIP the 96 YNWA.

Ray Roche
84 Posted 12/09/2012 at 19:32:54
Karl, I am, like you, continually angered by this everpresent picture that the media, particularly the BBC , enjoy portraying of Liverpool. The Harry Enfield thing was, for about 45 seconds, vaguely humorus , but what really pisses me off is the constant caricature of all Liverpool people being thieving, benefit scrounging, workshy doleites. Even in a subliminal way, for instance, anyone of nature, background etc. involving a criminal past is given a scouse accent. Just look at the Find My Past advert where the convict is an "Ey Der la" character. And before anyone blathers on about me coming from self-pity city, I moved to north Wales some 40 years ago and have had to put up with that sort of crap on a weekly basis, the last time was just last Saturday when we had the old "thieving scouser" line yet again. A short fuse. Yes, you could say that....
Nick Entwistle
85 Posted 12/09/2012 at 19:05:52
There are some who have taken exception to what I wrote, choosing to demonise my post as something from their own creation. Then there are those who understood the message.

The message being that if the inquiry finds the prime minister of the time and the cabinet not culpable with partaking in a cover-up then this should be as accepted in the same manner as if their suspicions were realised.

It was not uncommon through the years that a vocal percentage viewed Thatcher and the Police as one and the same in the cover-up that was know to have taken place. And though this had potential this hasn't been revealed to be true from what we heard today.

I have though listened to many phone ins on different channels since the findings broke and no one has voiced or tried to perpetuate this opinion anyway.

(Then again having had some years within national the radio industry, this is not the day you would allow those on air).

The only thing I would rescind is that within my first post I mentioned Merseyside as a whole, where were it a reasonable hour I would have corrected that to a percentage.

How big or small, I don't know. But enough to make that viewpoint common place within the listener/reader generated content on radio, print and internet.

People will either accept this or condemn me. But if you do condemn, perceptions can so often be choices. And if I'm going to be called everything that I have been on this thread, its because of this I know those posts to be the least important of all.

When so much good has come from today, balls to you for your choices.

Cheers.

Steve Smith
86 Posted 12/09/2012 at 19:53:12
Nick:
So your a big fan of Maggie Thatcher? why didn't you just say that instead?

Paul David
87 Posted 12/09/2012 at 19:52:55
Nick, why should people accept what comes out today and leave it? There has been a cover up from the start, so why should anyone believe that it has completely ended now?
Trevor Lynes
88 Posted 12/09/2012 at 19:46:28
The Sun newspaper absolutely blamed Liverpool fans for the disaster and I for one has never bought that paper since.

Luckily I never had a relative at that game but I want to see the people who altered the police and ambulance statements prosecuted! I do not think that closure has been reached until the people responsible are brought to book.

Many of those policemen and politicians are now retired on pensions, they should be named and dragged to court to face criminal charges. To fail in their duty to control the crowds and then to soil the names of relatives and friends of the deceased so that they can crawl away from their crimes is totally unacceptable.

This 23-year-old aberration on the justice system of this country cannot be allowed to be shelved because of an oral apology from the Prime Minister whose party were in power when the tragedy occurred. Heads should roll and the culprits named. Only David Duckenfield has been mentioned by name and the buck doesn't just stay with him.

Let's have REAL justice and expose all the culprits including any politicians who had a hand in the cover-up.

Brian Denton
89 Posted 12/09/2012 at 20:05:00
All the criminals in their coats and their ties/Are free to drink martinis and watch the sun rise.......
Ian Bennett
90 Posted 12/09/2012 at 19:39:28
I pass tribute to the families, support groups and MPs who have maintained their fight over the last 23 years. Merseyside has known the truth, and I only hope the rest open their eyes to the despicable cover-up, deceit and negligence that the review has uncovered.

I hope that those who were negligent or who played their part in the deceit receive their true justice. I only wish it had happened sooner, and give credit to the way it was handled by Cameron in bringing this out.

Brent Stephens
91 Posted 12/09/2012 at 21:00:50
"We live in a political world
The one we can see and can feel
But there’s no one to check, it’s all a stacked deck
We all know for sure that it’s real..."
Karl Masters
92 Posted 12/09/2012 at 21:23:23
Paul David is right. While the Police and The Sun will rightly be hung out to dry, bear in mind how convenient this could be for others further up the chain.

At present it appears that no documentary evidence links the PM and senior Ministers to knowing the real truth. But then again, people don't get that high without being good at covering the angles and leaving few tracks. David Cameron has already begun the process with that apology today - very good at distancing the Tory party from support of the Police cover up in many naive eyes.

A full Enquiry will surely follow. I just hope they look in ALL the right places.

Danny Broderick
93 Posted 12/09/2012 at 22:36:32
Nick,
Your comments were a cheap shot. I don't know what you were trying to achieve, you should have kept your mouth shut in any case and just respected that today the truth was going to be revealed. By the time the truth was told your comments looked quite stupid anyway.
Jamie Crowley
94 Posted 12/09/2012 at 23:04:14
I'm American, and I don't have the historical privilege of supporting Everton pre-2006. So I certainly am no expert on this tragic occurrence.

However, before (before!) this report became public, based upon the information many, many people had regarding Hillsborough, is it really that much of a stretch to have assumed / come to the conclusion that some of the Liverpool supporters would have been partially to blame?

It is very clear now that there was a massive cover up and negligence at the highest levels.

But I have seen scenes like this before. And yes, it is a massive, and upon reflection, horrible assumption to have made that the supporters may have been partially to blame now that we know the facts.

Any venue. Concerts, sporting events, et al - a lot of people waiting impatiently (not in their proper mind due to drinking) for doors to open and they bum rush the place when those door do open to "get a seat" or "get in". That is wholly dangerous and unacceptable. But it does happen alot!

Couple that with the hooliganism that occurred at the time, and again the "reports" I've even read before today, and one could quite easily come to the conclusion (read assumption) that some of the fans surely were culpable of bad judgement, rushing the gate, and causing trouble while waiting for the gates to open.

That clearly now (again for emphasis) didn't happen.

But contextually I don't feel it was a thought process at the time that could be discounted. Rash? Stereotypical? Unfair?

Yes.

But seeing Nick get vilified for an assumption that really wasn't that much of a stretch also doesn't seem very fair IMO either. I personally think Nick, from what I've read, is a very, very true Blue and isn't caustic, bombastic, etc. He made an assumption based upon the information that was available at the time.

Nick - I apologize to you if I've characterized your comments incorrectly.

I also apologize if I've offended anyone - and God please know I mean this - who lost anyone close to them on that day.

I feel it's absolutely necessary and incumbent on anyone viewing another's comments regarding this terrible tragedy before the report came out to bear in mind the information they were presented with, the reports, etc., were seemingly outright lies and cover ups.

But if someone believed these abhorrent misrepresentations of the truth and therefore came to have an opinion that today we know was completely flawed, surely we shouldn't crucify them?

Again, please understand my comments. I truly hope no one is offended. It's simply another view from a different prism that I think everyone should take into account before they pass judgement.

At that point in time, it surely could have been assumed that there was a mob mentality, a gate rush, and that those people engaging in that were partially to blame for the tragedy.

Now we know it was gross negligence, and a subsequent diabolical cover up.

The truth was revealed today. Thank God for that and I hope it brings consolation to many of the people who had loved one's memories dragged through the mud by very despicable people.

What I now know of how anyone in a position of authority acted truly disgusts me. They lied and used the deceased to cover their own ass. Sickening on any and all levels.

Brendan McLaughlin
95 Posted 12/09/2012 at 23:51:24
Let's not fool ourselves, folks.
Hillsborough, Bloody Sunday... shooting some young Brazilian cos he happens to run too fast in the Underground... if any of this happened again tomorrow, the first thing the establishment would do is... COVER UP! No lessons learnt here... more's the pity!!
Nick Armitage
96 Posted 13/09/2012 at 00:45:29
Hillsborough was a perfect storm of police underfunding and incompetence, creaking stadia, an uncaring establishment and disaffected fans.

All were partially responsible to a greater or lesser degree. Yes there was a cover up, but if anyone believes that the only person responsible is the person who gave the order to open the gate, then they are very blinkered indeed.

Steve Smith
97 Posted 13/09/2012 at 01:39:27
Nick #252
You say: "The message being that if the inquiry finds the prime minister of the time and the cabinet not culpable with partaking in a cover-up then this should be as accepted in the same manner as if their suspicions were realised.

It was not uncommon through the years that a vocal percentage viewed Thatcher and the Police as one and the same in the cover-up that was know to have taken place. And though this had potential this hasn't been revealed to be true from what we heard today."

The report says:
Among the new documents released on Wednesday was a memo from a senior civil servant to Baroness Thatcher about the interim report into the tragedy by Lord Justice Taylor.

She was told the August 1989 report had found that the chief superintendent in charge at Hillsborough had "behaved in an indecisive fashion" and senior officers had infuriated the judge by seeking to "duck all responsibility when giving evidence" to his inquiry.

The memo made it clear that Mr Hurd thought South Yorkshire Chief Constable Peter Wright would have to resign, adding: "The enormity of the disaster, and the extent to which the inquiry blames the police, demand this."

And it added: "The defensive, and at times close to deceitful, behaviour by the senior officers in South Yorkshire sounds depressingly familiar. Too many senior policemen seem to lack the capacity or character to perceive and admit faults in their organisation."

The report, the memo added, would "sap confidence in the police force" and could encourage aggressive behaviour by fans who would feel "vindicated" by its conclusions.

But in a handwritten note, Mrs Thatcher made it clear that she did not want to give the government's full backing to Lord Taylor's criticisms, only to the way in which he had conducted his inquiry and made recommendations for action.

She wrote: "What do we mean by 'welcoming the broad thrust of the report'? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome? Surely we welcome the thoroughness of the report and its recommendations - M.T."

Si Cooper
98 Posted 13/09/2012 at 01:23:23
Jamie (#304), it is not that the actions of a small number of fans couldn't have contributed to the problems that day, but the subsequent attempt to shift ALL of the blame onto the fans by the police, which gave rise to the slurs proclaimed by The Sun newspaper and even an attempted white-wash by the government of the day, is wholly unacceptable.

To put it another way, none of what the fans did merited the subsequent behaviour of the authorities (and those whose job it was to hold them accountable) which was wholly done to deflect the blame they deserved.

Ed Fitzgerald
99 Posted 13/09/2012 at 06:39:12
I am disgusted by some of the comments on this thread it is clear to any rational and fair minded person that the reason for what happened that fateful has nothing whatsoever to do with fan misbehaviour. For 23 years people have been fighting to reveal the truth and when it is revealed some Evertonians on this thread still seek to slur people who are our neighbours, friends and family. Shameful
Derek Thomas
100 Posted 13/09/2012 at 08:03:52
The (to me) key point of Nick's #107 is the last para. For his first 2 paras, he may have gone a bit OTT / Marsh-esque. But it doesn't seem much different in essence (again, to me) than what I said in parts of my #138.
Nick Entwistle
101 Posted 13/09/2012 at 08:29:37
Jamie, hold on a moment! I was done commenting on this thread but then you said...

'But seeing Nick get vilified for an assumption that really wasn't that much of a stretch also doesn't seem very fair IMO either.' i.e. with regard to blaming fans.

I'd point you to post 204 where I said... 'Don't go thinking therefor I was implying this means a transference of blame from the state to the fan.'

I've never once blamed the fans or implied this. People have taken it upon themselves to choose this angle, then believe it. Slightly ironic considering the effect The Sun had on tarnishing reputations on Merseyside.

Nick Entwistle
102 Posted 13/09/2012 at 08:49:48
You're right Derek, you made good points in that post. People may have wanted more from the truth and that's what I was guarding against.
Tony J Williams
103 Posted 13/09/2012 at 09:08:33
"I am disgusted by some of the comments on this thread it is clear to any rational and fair minded person that the reason for what happened that fateful day has nothing whatsoever to do with fan misbehaviour" - Ed, I don't think anyone here has suggested it was.

This tragedy happened due to many little mistakes and some whopping ones, there isn't just one person, one sole villain who was ultimately responsible for this and there was a multitude of little things happening that led up to the idiotic idea of opening the gates.

Peter Laing
104 Posted 13/09/2012 at 09:09:41
Nick you were guarding against fuck all, you stated quite clearly Liverpool's version of the truth 'instead'. I and many others interpreted that as a disgusting and inflammatory comment on such a solemn day after a 23 year wait for the truth to be out and hopefully the process of justice to be started.

In my opinion you were looking to continue to peddle this opinion of self-pity city, victims, looking for others to blame etc. There is nothing more than the truth Nick, that is all those grieving families were looking for and hopefully justice will now begin to prevail.
Peter Laing
105 Posted 13/09/2012 at 09:17:28
Tony J Williams, no shit Sherlock ?
Tony J Williams
106 Posted 13/09/2012 at 09:35:49
Some shit Peter, your post!
Joe Clitherow
107 Posted 13/09/2012 at 09:25:42
Paul Ferry #235

"Thatcher never once visited Liverpool..."

You're wrong there. How do I know? Because her limo in police convoy nearly ran me over the day after (or very soon after anyway) the L8 Riots as I was walking home from school crossing Hall Lane. I looked to my left as I dodged this hurtling black car going towards Edge Lane and there she was, plain as day sitting in the back deep in conversation.

And yes they were speeding. There's a footnote to that whole story if I hadn't been so quick on my feet as a lad eh?

Peter Laing
108 Posted 13/09/2012 at 09:44:01
Whatever Tony, from a fella who misses a semi final because he is saving up to get married ha !
Kev Johnson
109 Posted 13/09/2012 at 09:45:29
Literally run over by Thatcher? They would have erected a statue to you, Joe, as a shining symbol of all those who had been metaphorically run over by her!
Joe Clitherow
110 Posted 13/09/2012 at 09:48:58
Kev I'm not kidding! No horns, no braking nothing! Probably missed me by more than I recall but a statue would have been no consolation.
Nick Entwistle
111 Posted 13/09/2012 at 09:36:29
Peter, if I was guarding against fuck all, go and read all the Thatcher/cover-up sentiments on the other Hillsborough thread.

That's my fears in post no.1 manifesting in reality. What I was guarding against has transpired on these very pages.

You thought I meant something else and ran with it. You continue to be wrong.

However you say 'there is nothing more than the truth'. You can read from my posts above that we can in the least agree on that.

Nothing else to add.

Brian Denton
112 Posted 13/09/2012 at 09:55:20
T J Williams, can you point me to the posts which claim there was "just one person, one sole villain who was ultimately responsible for this..."? I seem to have missed them.
Ciarán McGlone
113 Posted 13/09/2012 at 10:12:25
Nick,

You appear to be unfamiliar with the remit of the Hillsborough Independent Panel.

You also appear to be unfamiliar with Thatcher's 'form'..

The truth will eventually come out... pity you appear to be using this thread to rather churlishly pre-empt it.... ironic really, given your first post.

John Ford
114 Posted 13/09/2012 at 10:12:11
John Clitheroe...you're right, I saw what must have been the same dark windowed car going up Mount Pleasant. Id like to say I gave her the two fingered salute, but no.

I did feel a bit sick though.

Tony J Williams
115 Posted 13/09/2012 at 10:29:30
"Whatever Tony, from a fella who misses a semi final because he is saving up to get married ha " - Yeah and my dads bigger than your dad....FFS
Tony J Williams
116 Posted 13/09/2012 at 10:30:51
Funny enough Brian, this tragedy is more often than not discussed amongst reds, not on here.
Ged Simpson
117 Posted 13/09/2012 at 10:09:40
Nick – sometimes it's just about your timing mate. Many find they are emotional on behalf of the victims (often even if they have no involvement in the tragedy) and think some kind of expressions of solidarity is a duty. Fair enough and if it works for them, then good.

However the consequence of this, as we have seen in many many tragedies from 9/11 to the death of Lady Di, is that people become hyper sensitive to anything that can be seen as conflicting with their views and are prone to vent their anger on a third party. Get a group of humans together, inject emotion and you will often find those outside the group are not trusted. Not right or wrong — just human nature.

My view is that it was a tragedy and made worse as many tried to cover up their mistakes and made it worse.

I think everone here agrees with that?

Brian Denton
118 Posted 13/09/2012 at 10:40:18
Ged, that's fair enough. But it wasn't just covering up their mistakes, it was the cowardly attempt to blame the fans themselves, and the disgusting (and in my view) class-based treatment of the families.
Joe Clitherow
119 Posted 13/09/2012 at 10:51:38
Brian

I think stretching this into a class war is a little bit too much and possibly a source of conflict here. Because there was a Tory Govt at the time and cover up then 2+2 = 5. In the 23 years since there have successive governments of Labour and Tory (even Liberal now!) and you can guarantee that if there was political capital in this it would have been made in that time. There was none made in the Commons yesterday. There is no "football class" even though most attendees at Hillsborough would probably have been labelled working class. Trevor Hicks owns his own business and stated yesterday that he was a Thatcher supporter.

People may well link SYP with the Miner's Strike evermore but in my view, anyone who attended away matches at Sheffield or Leeds in the 80s knows what kind of a bunch of pieces of work these people were from personal experience. I don't know whether that is chicken or egg I just know they seemed to hate everyone who they decided they did not like rather than act as even handed coppers. They obviously did not like football fans.

As I have posted elsewhere my most vivid memory of South Yorks Police is 16 months before H'boro when we played Wednesday in I think the third or fourth replay of the FAC3 when we stuffed them 5-0. My coach was stopped multiple times "searching for alcohol" including with 5 mins to go to kick-off when they could see people were getting angry and anxious and had no intention of putting the KO back. My overriding impression is that they were deliberately antagonising so they could arrest anyone who objected. I only missed a few mins and saw all the goals but more than half the away fans didn't get in until after half time when all the action was over.

What a bunch of charmers the SYP were. My memory is that the only two police forces that acted in this manner were SYP and the West Midlands force. Coincidence? I don't really recall problems travelling with any police forces other than these.

Like other people here I was at Villa Park that day and it could have easily been us at Hillsborough but for the luck of a draw.

Peter Laing
120 Posted 13/09/2012 at 11:07:56
Brian, like you I believe that there are greater sociological elements at play, sadly typified in the disaster at Hillsborough and the miscarriage of justice that has subsequently been played out since. To provide insight into how those on the right think you only have to cast your mind back to the comments in 2004 made by Boris Johnson in the Spectator magazine, and to think that he may be the next leader of the Conservative Party — frightening.
Brent Stephens
121 Posted 13/09/2012 at 11:18:41
Thanks to Steve Smith #329 for citing from the report that Thatcher was told that the police had shown themselves to be "close to deceitful behaviour". She did nothing to address that (conveniently for her I think). Doing nothing is in itself an action. She didn't have to conspire by agreeing with the police to continue the deceit - she conspired by doing nothing about it.
Roberto Birquet
122 Posted 13/09/2012 at 11:41:06
Phil Sammon

The new report shows that it was NOT drunkenness of fans. And that the police not only covered up their own incompetence, but deliberately set out to slander and blame the dead fans, and slander other fans via the national media.

Your opinions are wrong, ignorant and not welcome. After all the work and years of those who demanded the truth, to then have some gobshite like yerself come out with such rubbish is offensive and obscene.

Steve Smith
123 Posted 13/09/2012 at 11:35:15
Tony #362 I disagree,
On the day one person was and still is responsible, that is the Police commander in charge of managing the policing on that day, it is his sole responsibility for what transpired because he was the man in charge, that responsibility comes with his job title and what he was adequately paid for to do correctly, he didn't, and he should face the consequences of his actions rather than what actually happened, which was, he was allowed to retire early with a very handsome pension.
Roberto Birquet
124 Posted 13/09/2012 at 11:51:52
Nick
You're writing utter bollox.

You say that... "[for some in Liverpool] only total and outright blame on the establishment and total and outright exoneration of the fans is good enough for some people, and nothing in-between is acceptable."

It is not others, but YOU who refuse to accept the truth, rather than your own version. This report completely exonerates the fans, even the Prime Minister made that absolutely, categorically clear in Parliament yesterday.

There was a cover-up, and libel against the fans, and the dead. Even The Sun now says that.

So get head out of yer arse, and if you have nothing useful to say, like "sorry, I was being twat", yer can piss off.

Dave Lynch
125 Posted 13/09/2012 at 11:47:01
Been reading this thread with interest.

My opinion is we should as Evertonians now put it to bed, let them deal with it they way they see fit.

The truth has been outed and now they will demand blood and recompence, so let them deal with it the way they see fit. They will shout loud enough for the whole country to hear but sadly it will not bring those poor souls who died that day back. No amount of compensation or blood-letting will.

Maybe they will now understand what Juve fans and families went through on that other awful day for football.
Nick Entwistle
126 Posted 13/09/2012 at 12:14:51
Roberto - #356.
Brian Denton
127 Posted 13/09/2012 at 12:27:31
Dave Lynch - bad post, bad timing, bad taste.

"Maybe they will now understand what Juve fans and families went through on that other awfull [sic] day for football" - what in God's name does that mean? Do I need to lose one of my children in a disaster to understand what other parents have gone through?

The parents have not been looking for 'compensation', or at least not in the sense that I suspect you mean. Nor are they looking for 'scapegoats' - they are looking for 'perpetrators'. Not the same thing at all.

Dave Lynch
128 Posted 13/09/2012 at 12:37:56
Brian.
By compensation I did not mean or refer to monetary compensation, maybe that was your own twisted take on it but not mine. You can be compensated in many ways not just monetary. Also please point out where I used the word "scapegoat"?

I fear that after all these years the guilty people will never be bought to justice and due to the length of time since the incident the true perpetrators will have covered their tracks so to speak.

As for the Juve comment. Fair enough I didn't think it through properly and if I have caused offence I apologise. But as for understanding what other parents have gone through in losing a child? Trust me, unless it has happened to you (and I pray to god it hasn't, I really do mate) the pain and heartache is so unbearable it is unreal.
Brian Denton
129 Posted 13/09/2012 at 13:05:09
I was using 'scapegoat' as a snappier version of the sentiment of your 'blood-letting'.

Your last paragraph seems to miss the point entirely.

Matt Traynor
130 Posted 13/09/2012 at 13:14:03
There are many tragedies within the whole tragedy, and I suspect the heartache and anger felt by those directly affected will get worse, before it gets better.

Sadly what was feared by many came to pass, and that was a conspiracy at the top level of government and public administration. Such behaviour is not new, has been perpetuated by governments and corporations for generations, and will again in the future, but probably with a bit more "malice of forethought".

If there is any positives to come out of this, it will be the holding to account of those who were criminally responsible. I doubt it will happen – the length of time that has passed means many are already dead, or are in retirement with access to sufficient funds, probably public, to get a good lawyer who will play every health card and other delaying tactics to ensure the accountability sought by the families remains the last challenge.

Dave Lynch
131 Posted 13/09/2012 at 13:21:09
Brian.

I'm not going to get drawn into a "I'm right your'e wrong" scenario. I just can't be arsed to be honest. You where the one who stated "Do I need to lose one of my children...." Not me.

Bottom line is to feel that amount of pain and hurt, yes you do. But then again you lightened the mood by being "snappier" than me.

The one thing we can all agree on is that at last all the relatives and families can hold their heads up high and with dignity, knowing their sons, daughters etc did nothing wrong that day and the world finally knows it.

Ending it there.

Ged Simpson
132 Posted 13/09/2012 at 14:13:39
There is such a thing as black comedy - sad and crazy things that come from tragedyh

This thread is the best example.

Ernie Baywood
133 Posted 13/09/2012 at 14:26:15
This thread is a real shame. Nothing wrong with Nick's opinion in my view but some of the abuse directed at him is out of order. The families campaigned for the release of documents and a full inquiry – all Nick was saying is that they had to be prepared for the results of that, even if they didn't point the finger where they clearly wanted it to be pointed.

If there was cause for claiming victory (not a good term but it will have to do) it was the release of the truth, not what that truth is.

As it is, the report has provided 2 main points. 1. that lives could have been saved. 2. that there was a cover up that sought to smear scousers. Those points are in order of significance. The 2nd is done now, the 1st still needs to be looked at.

That said, I've found reading the reports today quite upsetting. It wasn't a surprise to see a cover up – but the lengths my country went to smear my city is an upsetting surprise. Fuck me, are we really considered so badly that the state could do that? And I include the Government – they should have been critical of the reports. The truth didn't come out because they didn't want it to.

On the other matters raised on the thread... I think that the club have basically turned JFT96 into a sickening piece of marketing. The club and fans seem to forget Heysel or, even worse, lump it in with Hillsborough as if the death of their own has somehow levelled the scorecard. None of that diminishes my condolences or respect for those that lost people.

I don't see why all of this can't be discussed by adults. It's as if Hillsborough has become the ultimate taboo. Any discussion beyond spouting taglines like "JFT96" or "die Duckenfield you cunt" is considered non PC.

Si Cooper
134 Posted 13/09/2012 at 14:27:18
Dave Lynch (#398), what a horrible post!

You have my sympathy (if not 100% exact experience) for any loss you may have suffered, but some of what you have written is out of order.

How can anyone, even in a weak moment, look at the events of Hillsborough as somehow balancing those at Heysel? Do you really think no Liverpool fans truly regretted what happened at Heysel as soon as it happened? Who are you accusing of only waking up to that tragedy now? Or do you think that the families of those who lost their lives at Hillsborough are deserving of sharing the pain of those who lost loved ones at Heysel?

Who are the 'them' and the 'they' you refer to in such a denigratory way? My brother and his friend were in that part of the crowd on the day. Fortunately they were able to scramble up to the section above, but then they (and many others) became part of the amateur 'emergency services' that tried to help others much less fortunate than themselves. I know they aren't looking for 'blood and recompense' and are not shouting 'loud enough for the whole country to hear'.

'at last all the relatives and families can hold their heads up high and with dignity' - it isn't other people knowing that makes you hold your head high and act with dignity, you do that because you already know. This was all about bringing to light the callous and shameful actions of those who sought only to protect their own reputations, which demonstrates nicely that some justice can be delivered after all this time and the true perpetrators have not covered their tracks too well.

Si Cooper
135 Posted 13/09/2012 at 15:35:28
Ernie, I agree with all you write apart from your penultimate paragraph.

Sometimes it is the other way around, where Liverpudlians are made to think they are not allowed to grieve for those who died at Hillsborough because they are jointly held accountable for the deaths at Heysel.

There was a need for pressure to be maintained on the authorities to get the inquiry that led to the results published yesterday, so it is hard to criticise LFC for supporting that campaign so vigorously.

Unfortunately, the modern way seems to be for people to assume the mantle of grief by the remotest association. For me, the family and friends of those who lost loved ones and anyone who was affected by actually being present are the only ones for which the Hillsborough tragedy has a true meaning.

Responsibility works differently. The events at Heysel should be honestly and deeply regretted by all associated with LFC, and I think that all I personally know do, but anyone who is aware of those events has some responsibility for making sure they don't happen again.

Kieran Carr
136 Posted 13/09/2012 at 15:50:44
I think as much of the truth as possible given the timescales has come out. Those fans who went to support Liverpool that day did not cause this and that has been made clear. The most deplorable aspect other than the death of 96 people is the atempt to some how cover this up.

One thing we need to remember is this is not an attack on Merseyside but on ordinary British people as a whole. Our so called "Establishment" or ruling class has consistently failed the people of this country on such a consistent level over the years they should bow their heads in shame. MP expenses, phone hacking, royals abusing privalage, the banks... where does it stop and this is recent times.

My heart goes out to the families and friends of those who died and I hope that national awareness has now been raised to this issue and the proper action will be taken.

Michael Kenrick
137 Posted 13/09/2012 at 16:20:32
I disagree, Kieran, I think it was very much an attack on Merseyside at the time, as many of the posts here have demonstrated. It was acceptable to make and sustain such attacks back then. Hopefully times have changed...

One interesting thing on the radio yesterday was the journalists who had severe reservations about the stories coming out of Whites at the time, and were reluctant to print them. Strange that few (any?) followed up on those doubts in the months that followed...

Kieran Carr
138 Posted 13/09/2012 at 16:58:49
Have to agree to disagree Michael. I think any part of the country outside of the Home Counties, London and wider South East would have the same view. I think a number of people have made the point that it could have been any team is valid. Thatchers attempt to make evryone a middle class home owner applied to all, even people living in London Boroughs.

Thats another argument. Thanks for response. Always good to know you are read on TW.

Martin Mason
139 Posted 13/09/2012 at 17:29:56
Kieran

I agree that it wasn't only an attack on Mersyside in fact in that direction it was only an attack on the Liverpool supporters who were there. In reality it was an attack on every normal person, it was the arrogance of the police, the politicians and the media in believing that they could shift the blame for total incompetence from themselves to a group of fans.

It is forever to the credit of the pressure groups and perhaps even modern politicians for in the end getting to the truth. I'd love to see a remembrance March maybe in London where we normal fans and people remember the dead fans and remind the ruling classes and their media stooges that we exist and are watching them.

Mike Green
140 Posted 13/09/2012 at 18:42:25
Adam Cunliffe #143 - that's a fantastic post, you should be proud of yourself. I'll be thinking of you when you lay that shirt down. Well done.

Add Your Comments

In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.

» Log in now

Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.


About these ads