Liverpool hopes the truth will finally out

It appears only outright blame on Thatcher's government and police will satisfy Merseyside and if that doesn't come forth then cries of 'whitewash' will happen.

The truth will come out, but people should be prepared to accept it, whatever shape it takes.

It seems.

It may be, as Nick says, that "the truth" is something different from what people were expecting. I don't know. I guess we'll find out today.

What ever happens today as Nick Entwistle says, it won't be good enough for some.

When you see it as 96 innocent people tragically killed at a sporting venue caused in good part by mistakes of the authorities it's a cause everyone supports, particularly when lies abound protecting said authorities.

Unfortunately the hijacking by gormless football chanting morons with, I suspect, different agenda it becomes something else.

The police have accepted their part in it and apologised on two occasions. What about the Hillsborough stand architects? What about the FA? What about the shoddy building work? What about ticketless fans? What about drunkenness?

It was a football match in the 80's. There were certainly drunk fans there. They didn't mean to be involved in a crush. They didn't know they were pushing people, who were pushing people, who were pushing people to their deaths.

How can you put that on one man's shoulders?

It doesn't help now that JFT96 is now almost a Liverpool FC catchphrase. 90% of the people who shout it don't even know what they're asking for.

Interestingly the 'c-word' is currently trending on twitter in relation to Hillsborough. It says a lot about the people who have hijacked the cause.

Justice for the 96, by all means. But this blinkered view and bandwagoning must stop.

Of course there were drunk fans. Of course there were fans without tickets. This happens at every major event there has ever been. What happened was, instead of managing the congestion outside the ground and delaying the kick off, the police opened an extra gate behind the Leppings Lane end. We all know the outcome.

When have the police ever apologised?

Of course the FA are also culpable, giving LFC the smaller stands wasn't the best of ideas was it? You really should do some research. Your assertion that people 'pushing people, who were pushing people, who were pushing people to their deaths' is below contempt.

No matter how devastating this tragedy was, there are pockets of supporters that will not be happy unless one person is blamed totally.

There were mistakes by police officers, big ones, to err is to be human and there were drunk fans, there always is before a semi, I was wasted when we played Man U, there were ticketless fans, I saw a lad bunk in right in front of me when we played Chelsea in the final.

It was a culmination of bad decisions AND drunk ticketless fans trying to get in to see their beloved team play a game of togger.

There was nothing disgraceful about Nick's comments at all, he just expressed a view that many have but are too touchy feely to express.

Factions will seize on this % or that % saying no this is wrong it should be more ( or less ) and nothing will be solved

If it is possible what I would like to see is an accurate version of what actually happened.

On a personal note:

My Dad and his mates went to Rome and saw the police do nothing about the attacks pre-game, in fact set the dogs on the out-numbered supporters when they fought back.

Walked into Heysel, saw the bodies being pulled out, and walked out again and drove home.

On the day of the semi-final he just decided in the morning not to go, unbeknownst to me at the time, but much to my relief when I rung home to check.

On Sunday afternoon we watched a top Police spokesman giving it the "...it's early days yet, blah blah, more information, blah blah, full facts blah blah" etc etc.

And we both said it together along the lines of... aka "we're going to go away and get our stories straight".

Football fans were teated like criminals in the Eighties. Anyone who went to the match will know what I mean.

The police changed statements, and the Government of the day were happy to go along with their version of events at any cost, and place the blame squarely at the feet of Liverpool fans.

I hope the likes of Kelvin McKenzie, Thatcher and her ministers, are all held to account.

Young kids & girls lost their lives that day - and Liverpool as a city was branded by politicians forever.

Justice for these fans will help to ease the pain for parents & relatives.

We should all be on their side today, as one city.

All the family (red and Blue) went away to Cyprus on holiday for the non-event final and didn't even watch it on the box in the bar, choosing to play snooker until it was all over.

I winced when I read that, as the very first sentiment in the very first post in this thread. Callous.

We won't know until these docs are released what the current truth is. But we seem to know even before this that some very disgusting and dishonest and criminal things happened - such as police notebooks having been rewritten. If I were the parent of a young lad who died at H'boro and knew the deceit already known, I would want to know the full truth. So I respect their search for that truth, backed by the Bishop of Liverpool etc etc.

If what comes out is generally accepted as the full and final truth (if there ever can be such a thing), and some of the 96 families and others don't accept that, well ok we can comment then. But not now; let's not guess at what they might or might not do.

By the way, I agree with everything else you say.

That day changed my Dad too. A young Everton fan realised that football isn't a matter of life and death. Neither My Grandad Bill or my Dad went to Wembley for the final. They watched it together on tele whilst my Mum and Nan went shopping. Both have said since that the result didn't even matter. I get the impression that my Dad and Grandad weren't that close until that day, but the realisation that both were lucky, one way or another, to be still be there brought them together. As my Dad said to me the other day watching that documentary on ITV – 'It could so easily have been us that day'.

And you know what the irony of it all is? This Saturday I'm moving out. To Sheffield. And one of the first things I'll do is visit the Hillsborough memorial garden and lay an old Everton shirt of mine down. The truth will come out one way or another. I hope it's today. JFT96.

What the truth is, and what people hope it to be could possibly be two very different things, and yes, possibly the same thing. But no one knows the truth as of right now and if it doesn't fit people's desires when revealed then this should be accepted in the same manner as if it gave you everything you hope for.

Your post only serves to underline my point. That only total and outright blame on the establishment and total and outright exoneration of the fans is good enough for some people, and nothing in-between is acceptable.

I hope whatever the report says that as much closure that can come from this will come from this.

I do the same myself mate! But the difference is, every time I have entered the stadium 2 minutes before kick off time, it has been safe to do so. By opening that gate at Hillsborough, the police created an entrance to the stadium that caused an accident. The kick-off should have been delayed. Or, they should have carried on as they were, even if some fans missed the first 20 minutes or whatever.

By opening that gate behind the Leppings End, and then not directing those fans to the stands at the side of the pitch as opposed to behind the goal, they created a problem. And the fans got the blame.

Oh, and by the way, all scousers were tarred with the same brush. What was written in the Sun was an attack on the people of Liverpool, with intended attacks about pickpocketing the dead etc. It was sickening, and Everton fans should not need to be reminded of this. JFT96.

The only controversy here is the strength of your post in response to Nick's opinion.

He hasn't cast doubt on the sheer heartache felt by the families, but on the fact that some sections will only be happy with the finger of blame being pointed solely at the police. They are the proximate cause but not the whole cause.

They even took blood samples from children, trying to apportion blame FFS !!!

Shocking how the establishment treated these people.

Shame on all these people. They are the only scum involved - not the fans.

Loathing of the great unwashed at the highest levels of government at the time was contexted on the battle with the miners five years earlier, and Thatcher's debt of gratitude to SYP for what they went through as they imposed order. Was the role that must have played in the Hillborough cover-up at the highest levels part of the Independent Panel's remit?

But quite clearly lays the blame on the corrupt police who altered their statements to make out that the fans were responsible. When it was their gross inefficiency that led to this disaster.

The emergency services also must shoulder their lack of ability to deal with this disaster, were if they had acted as they should many lives could and should have been saved.

The coroners who decided despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary that everybody was dead by 3:15pm.

The media and most of all the Sun newspaper for their disgusting and disgracefull reporting of the events, and in particular Kelvin McKenzie the editor who allowed this foul story to be printed.

Finally, I would know hope that the family, friends and relatives of the 96 now get the justice they so richly deserve.

So there you have it, I'm guessing. Perhaps no documents exist; perhaps not. Cameron says everything was given to the Panel.

Mr Speaker, over all these years questions have been raised about the role of the government – including whether it did enough to uncover the truth.

It is certainly true that some of the language in the government
papers published today was insensitive.

But having been through every document – and every government document including Cabinet Minutes will be published – the Panel found no evidence of any government trying to conceal the truth.

At the time of the Taylor Report the then Prime Minister was briefed
by her private secretary that the defensive and – I quote - “close to
deceitful” behaviour of senior South Yorkshire officers was
“depressingly familiar.”

And it is clear that the then government thought it right that the
Chief Constable of South Yorkshire should resign.

But as the Rt Hon Member for Leigh has rightly highlighted,
governments then and since have simply not done enough to challenge publicly the unjust and untrue narrative that sought to blame the fans.

Also the legal advice to the police at the time was to gather evidence 'under the assuptiom that you are the accused'.

Apparently Thatcher was concerned that the inquiry report would prove to be devastating for the SYP........indeed the same police who fought her battles at the miners' strike.

Obviously (unfortunately) people are going to hide behind the "I had no reason not to believe what I was told." line, so there is surely nothing to be gained by trying to force apologies out of all who should.

Who amongst us wouldn't have gone through that gate when it was opened and pushed through into the nearest piece of terracing in our enthusiasm. None of what the fans did merited the subsequent behaviour of the authorities (and those whose job it was to hold them accountable) which was wholly done to deflect the blame they deserved.

Only practical thing left to do is have the 'accidental death' verdicts re-examined.

Nick Entwistle: You, like many others over the 23 years since this tragedy took place, have chosen to comment on a subject you know very little about it seems.

"Liverpools desired version of the truth"?....or not your truth do you mean?

Most people on Merseyside have known the truth for a long, long, time.

The families of the victims have known the truth for a long, long, time.

This battle for the truth wasn't just about having it confirmed to them, it was also about having it laid out in irrefutable black and white, by a completely independent and impartial panel, so that fucking imbeciles like you, may finally accept that the blame lies with the state and it's agencies and that some of those people should be held accountable for their actions.

I do wonder whether any other tragedy of this extent would have been systematically covered up? My sense has always been that because it was people from Liverpool who died, because it was families of Liverpool that suffered made it OK - as it has been for all segments of society to repeat this debased truth and claim there must be some basis to it - like Nick Entwistle

There obviously was some political implication to it as Liverpool was a resolutely socialist city during a Thatcherite era, also widespread institutional prejudice against football as a sport of drunken hooligans and mobs.

For all of the contemptible apologists for this disgrace like Nick Enwhistle # who peddled these myths and lies.

But I hope we remember the 96 innocents who died, almost half of them under 21. Somebody's father, mother, son, daughter, friend, loved on.

If you want to tell me what lies and myths I've peddled or what I've not been unable to accept that's up to you but you'll have a hard time finding anything.

My second post should adequately help you out on my position, which admittedly is better than my awkward 'desired version' comment which can easily be chosen to mean something more than it meant to.

What we've heard today is what many of us have expected to hear. Me included.

So which is it? You expected to hear something (outright blame on the police etc) which you believe to be the false narrative which Liverpool fans feel they deserve? Or did you expect to hear something which justified your view that this narrative was false?

That the people of Liverpool would only accept a report that validated their version of what happened, that our response was bitter, illogical and hysterical. That it was the desired truth we were after and not the simple truth. Wrong, all the family of the dead asked for was simple honesty about how their loved one died and they finally got it today after some many years.

Your original post tried to put an angle on the events of Hillsbrough and the deaths of the 96 fans that the people of this city have had to suffer for years. Don't try and backtrack from your original posts because the devastating evidence from today has proven them to wrong.

"That only total and outright blame on the establishment and total and outright exoneration of the fans is good enough for some people, and nothing in-between is acceptable"

shows that you know nothing about what this battle for justice has been about, the families of the victims ALWAYS knew the victims and supporters would be exonerated from blame. The evidence was always there to prove this, they always knew who was to blame.

This battle has been about those guilty parties holding their hands up and accepting that blame, it's also been about educating people like you who cannot or will not accept the real truth of what happened on that day.

The Hillsborough Tragedy is, and always has been, a very emotive issue. I lost a good mate that day, a mate who I actually lent the money to to get his ticket, one reason I don't go in for the hatred and bile that rises it's ugly head on Derby Day. Having said that I might now upset some of you with what I'm going to say. If I do I apologise but it's what I believe and I will stick to it.

What exactly is everybody looking for ? Is it one person to point a finger at and say, it's all your fault Mr Policeman, your fault Mr Politician, your fault Mr F.A, your fault fellow fans. . The Copper who decided to open the gates has stated that if he hadn't a lot more would have perished. There is no way of singling out one person to blame. Yes what they did after the tragedy was disgraceful, with cover ups and lies aplenty.

But what happened is exactly what happened, nobody meant or wanted anyone to get hurt that day let alone die. It was a catalogue of events, although avoidable, that happened and cost the lives of 96 people. Nobody wanted it, the same way nobody wanted the Herald of Free Enterprise to sink, nobody wanted the Bradford fire, nobody wanted Munich 58, nobody wanted Concorde to crash, nobody wanted the Ibrox Disasters of 1902 and 1971, nobody wanted the Summerland disaster in 1971, but they happened.. It wasn't terrorism, it wasn't somebody purposely setting out to hurt and maim. As I've said it was a catalogue of events the ended in the death of 96 Liverpool supporters, it could have been us or any other team that day.

If, and it's a big if, they do find someone to blame, the poor souls who lost their lives will still be dead. Please let them rest in peace, put this behind us and move on. As long as people mass in great numbers there will always be tragedies. History is dotted with such events going back hundreds, if not thousands of years, I've listed a more recent ones above. None of it is meant and most of them are avoidable, but they still happen. It's life and death in it's most tragic form.

I was stating that if 'outright blame...' was not delivered by the inquiry then it should still be accepted.

Don't go thinking therefor I was implying this means a transference of blame from the state to the fan.

I'm not sure how much the government are implicated with these first reports, but many were seeing this as a police/Thatcher cover-up and she seems to be removed from criticism. Won't stop some still calling it a cover up.

Good post, same question crossed my mind about what the "goal" is.

To compare him to Kelvin McKenzie is ridiculous.

The enquiry was never set up to make judgements. The panel were asked some pertinent questions by reporters today, and they have stated they are not there to make any " value judgements "

Their brief was to uncover the evidence as papers were released by the authorities, and present it on behalf of the families.

It is now up to the Attorney General and the High Court as to whether there will be any further actions.

That Sun story "The Truth" came from a Sheffield news agency being briefed by .......South Yorkshire Police and a local Conservative MP.
The report finds that this was part of police efforts 'to develop and publicise a version of events that focused on allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence.'

It is a cover up, at the highest levels, and grounds exist to bring charges against a number of people for perverting the course of justice.

In 1995, I spent 2 months workiing on Jimmy Mcgovern's "Hillsborough."

I worked alongside the three real-life families depicted in the programme, and in particular, with the Spearritt family, who's fourteen year-old son, Adam, was one of the 96, and his story was featured.

No "desired version." They simply wanted their story told, and the honest facts unambiguously established.

Thanks.

Nobody, but nobody, has the right to adopt a 'let bygones be bygones' approach. This whole episode was a stain on our nation, the authorities and the legal system of our country.

I hate Liverpool football club but some of my best mates support Liverpool.

What happened that day was a tragedy that was nothing but sad. It could easily have happened to us.

They lost ppl they loved and then were told their behaviour caused their own deaths. They were also told that fellow fans robbed the dying and urinated on the dead.

Fking hell, if I lost someone I loved and then heard their name dragged through the mud, I'd want the truth too. Not my 'version' of the truth (have some respect Nick), but the actual truth. Isn't that worth fighting tooth & nail for?

Some of the comments on this thread are pretty ignorant

A good, thoughtfull post.
Brian Denton @216.
Let's hope that by achieving that noble goal, as you so eloquently put it, will help the bereaved familes gain some form of satisfaction and be able to move on with their lives.

Or is that hopelessly idealistic?

Or is that hopelessly idealistic?

I honestly think that there is something in this "it was Liverpool" line. Anyone, like me, unfortunate enough to come of age under Thatcher in our gritty city knows what I'm knocking on about.

The treatment of Liverpool BEFORE Hillsborough was a disgrace. Thatcher never forgave us for the Toxteth riots; for holding out against the council tax; and for having an overall attitude (at least that it how it was presented to her in the press and elsewhere) of defiance and standing alone. Going to university in the 1980s, there was actually a lot of respect for the fact that I came from Liverpool. Not in Number 10, apart from Heseltine. He came to the city after Toxteth and his diagnosis was of impoverishment and deliberate neglect by withdrawing firms and government.

Thatcher never once visited Liverpool in her entire despicable reign (I am right about that aren't I?). That fat smug cunt Howe told the cabinet to abandon the city in the midst of the dustbin strike, we know that now.

And in Thatcher's warped mind that strike and the city morphed into the miner's strike (like many, I climbed aboard minivans to heard off to Lancs picket lines and later Selby). Let's not forget how the South Yorkshire Police treated decent striking miners: remember the scenes, leaning down the fucking cowards from their horses to beat anyone in sight.

Hillsborough. I was at Villa; one of the best and then worst days of my life. Hillsborough: Thatcher's and Howe's already set-in-stone attitude to our gritty city, abandoning us, letting us rot (this was the time when the 'Sign on, Sign on ... ' shite began; scousers were good-for-nothings for the most part (although let's wheel out that cunt Liverpool MP who turned the blame on the kopites), Derek Hattons everywhere, a police force full of thugs as we saw in 1984-85. These were the prejudices and caricatures swimming round in the days after Hillsborough: oh they're at it again, whitewash, blackwash, fucking bastard lying coppers and higher-ups and all of them.

I wonder, if this had been Chelsea playing say Norwich at Villa Park in a semi if the same sort of blinkered mind-made-up-never-mind-what-actually-happened about the good folks of Liverpool would have been quite different in response. I think it would be. Giving a ten-year-old lad an alcohol test: fucking shameful. And remember later, the same set of attitudes about Liverpool burst to the surface over the appalling Jamie Bulger killing: only in Liverpool, right. The Sun had another hey-day.

Through thick and thin, the Merseyside music, drama, screenplays, novels, press articles, non-fiction writing, poems, kept on coming. Relentless. In adversity the city hit back, politically, culturally, socially.

Hillsborough bound us together like nothing else in my life up to now. I'm so happy for anyone with any link of any sort to the 96, from blood-ties to simple heartfelt support. A man-made tragedy; 41 could have been saved. It's a fucking tragedy. A city let down in part because of the broader context of the 1980s and the cunts in the cabinet. I can only look on with deep deep sympathy and admiration when those mothers and fathers spoke today with love and dedication for those they lost. Such dignity, such belief, such sources of inspiration.

Geoff Howe let it implode.

Of course, all people want is the truth. To many of us, including people like myself living away from Liverpool, it was clear that there was some sort of cover up, massaging of the details etc and that we were not told everything.

I was at the other semi at Villa Park and I know that had those little balls come out of the semui final draw just slightly differently, I could have been behind that goal at Hillsborough. In those days, the big matches were a carnival day out and yes, many fans had plenty to drink and yes, terraces were dangerous. But, when you read that crap in The Sun about fans urinating near bodies and generally being portrayed as animals you just knew a Merseyside Cup Semi was not like that.

We, as football fans were already treated like animals and Thatcher was desperate to bring in her Fottball ID card scheme ( that was shelved after Hillsborough as it would delay people getting in if computers failed ). To my mind, if you look for motives for the authorities standing by whilst the SYP covered it all up, you can point at Thatcher owing them after the Miners Strike and she hardly had a like for the City of Liverpool after Hatton and Militant Tendency made her look stupid during the 80's and persuaded one of her softer Ministers ( name escapes me for now ) to hand over a load of regeneration grants out of the Government coffers, while she was happy to let the City decay as a slapdown to ' lazy, workshy Scousers' who had brought it all on themsleves. I don't know her thoughts, but it does kind of fit. At present, the Panel seem to state there is no direct link to senior Govt, but all of us should want is to know the real happenings.

The extent of the cover up now coming out is appalling and the whole country should want to know the truth, Nick, not just some embittered old moaners in Liverpool as your post implies. For me, the most shocking thought is that it seems that up to 41 of the 96 could possibly have survived had the authorities got their act together.

These days it is striking actually how green Liverpool is in the Summer, and remarkably 'Tarzan' has become something of a Champion for the City, so maybe he wasn't all bad after all.

Frankly though, you only have to cast your minds back a year or two to see the jaundiced, stereotypical view of Liverpool is still alive in Tory-land with Boris Johnson's ill chosen comments.

As a man living in Kent, I can tell you that sadly the Kelvin McKenzie, Harry Enfield, Bread etc image of Liverpool is still alive in many people's minds down here. This is more due to a laziness in many people's minds to search out the real truth than any malice. Just as people in Britain think Germans are like humourless robots or Italians are cowards, some people just accept whatever description they read or see on TV and think it must be true. With that in mind, I think it's vital that the whole truth comes out and that Merseyside football fans can finally establish 'The real Truth' and not that disgraceful Sun version of events.

I agree with Karls last point, I was appalled to read that 41 of those victims could have survived under different circumstances.

Reflecting on todays disclosures, it seems this really is the beginning of the end in the fight for justice for those people who died and, as an Evertonian, I am extremely proud to say that my name appears on both of the petitions that got us to this day.

RIP the 96 YNWA.

The message being that if the inquiry finds the prime minister of the time and the cabinet not culpable with partaking in a cover-up then this should be as accepted in the same manner as if their suspicions were realised.

It was not uncommon through the years that a vocal percentage viewed Thatcher and the Police as one and the same in the cover-up that was know to have taken place. And though this had potential this hasn't been revealed to be true from what we heard today.

I have though listened to many phone ins on different channels since the findings broke and no one has voiced or tried to perpetuate this opinion anyway.

(Then again having had some years within national the radio industry, this is not the day you would allow those on air).

The only thing I would rescind is that within my first post I mentioned Merseyside as a whole, where were it a reasonable hour I would have corrected that to a percentage.

How big or small, I don't know. But enough to make that viewpoint common place within the listener/reader generated content on radio, print and internet.

People will either accept this or condemn me. But if you do condemn, perceptions can so often be choices. And if I'm going to be called everything that I have been on this thread, its because of this I know those posts to be the least important of all.

When so much good has come from today, balls to you for your choices.

Cheers.

Luckily I never had a relative at that game but I want to see the people who altered the police and ambulance statements prosecuted! I do not think that closure has been reached until the people responsible are brought to book.

Many of those policemen and politicians are now retired on pensions, they should be named and dragged to court to face criminal charges. To fail in their duty to control the crowds and then to soil the names of relatives and friends of the deceased so that they can crawl away from their crimes is totally unacceptable.

This 23-year-old aberration on the justice system of this country cannot be allowed to be shelved because of an oral apology from the Prime Minister whose party were in power when the tragedy occurred. Heads should roll and the culprits named. Only David Duckenfield has been mentioned by name and the buck doesn't just stay with him.

Let's have REAL justice and expose all the culprits including any politicians who had a hand in the cover-up.

I hope that those who were negligent or who played their part in the deceit receive their true justice. I only wish it had happened sooner, and give credit to the way it was handled by Cameron in bringing this out.

At present it appears that no documentary evidence links the PM and senior Ministers to knowing the real truth. But then again, people don't get that high without being good at covering the angles and leaving few tracks. David Cameron has already begun the process with that apology today - very good at distancing the Tory party from support of the Police cover up in many naive eyes.

A full Enquiry will surely follow. I just hope they look in ALL the right places.

However, before (before!) this report became public, based upon the information many, many people had regarding Hillsborough, is it really that much of a stretch to have assumed / come to the conclusion that some of the Liverpool supporters would have been partially to blame?

It is very clear now that there was a massive cover up and negligence at the highest levels.

But I have seen scenes like this before. And yes, it is a massive, and upon reflection, horrible assumption to have made that the supporters may have been partially to blame now that we know the facts.

Any venue. Concerts, sporting events, et al - a lot of people waiting impatiently (not in their proper mind due to drinking) for doors to open and they bum rush the place when those door do open to "get a seat" or "get in". That is wholly dangerous and unacceptable. But it does happen alot!

Couple that with the hooliganism that occurred at the time, and again the "reports" I've even read before today, and one could quite easily come to the conclusion (read assumption) that some of the fans surely were culpable of bad judgement, rushing the gate, and causing trouble while waiting for the gates to open.

That clearly now (again for emphasis) didn't happen.

But contextually I don't feel it was a thought process at the time that could be discounted. Rash? Stereotypical? Unfair?

Yes.

But seeing Nick get vilified for an assumption that really wasn't that much of a stretch also doesn't seem very fair IMO either. I personally think Nick, from what I've read, is a very, very true Blue and isn't caustic, bombastic, etc. He made an assumption based upon the information that was available at the time.

Nick - I apologize to you if I've characterized your comments incorrectly.

I also apologize if I've offended anyone - and God please know I mean this - who lost anyone close to them on that day.

I feel it's absolutely necessary and incumbent on anyone viewing another's comments regarding this terrible tragedy before the report came out to bear in mind the information they were presented with, the reports, etc., were seemingly outright lies and cover ups.

But if someone believed these abhorrent misrepresentations of the truth and therefore came to have an opinion that today we know was completely flawed, surely we shouldn't crucify them?

Again, please understand my comments. I truly hope no one is offended. It's simply another view from a different prism that I think everyone should take into account before they pass judgement.

At that point in time, it surely could have been assumed that there was a mob mentality, a gate rush, and that those people engaging in that were partially to blame for the tragedy.

Now we know it was gross negligence, and a subsequent diabolical cover up.

The truth was revealed today. Thank God for that and I hope it brings consolation to many of the people who had loved one's memories dragged through the mud by very despicable people.

What I now know of how anyone in a position of authority acted truly disgusts me. They lied and used the deceased to cover their own ass. Sickening on any and all levels.

All were partially responsible to a greater or lesser degree. Yes there was a cover up, but if anyone believes that the only person responsible is the person who gave the order to open the gate, then they are very blinkered indeed.

It was not uncommon through the years that a vocal percentage viewed Thatcher and the Police as one and the same in the cover-up that was know to have taken place. And though this had potential this hasn't been revealed to be true from what we heard today."

The report says:
Among the new documents released on Wednesday was a memo from a senior civil servant to Baroness Thatcher about the interim report into the tragedy by Lord Justice Taylor.

She was told the August 1989 report had found that the chief superintendent in charge at Hillsborough had "behaved in an indecisive fashion" and senior officers had infuriated the judge by seeking to "duck all responsibility when giving evidence" to his inquiry.

The memo made it clear that Mr Hurd thought South Yorkshire Chief Constable Peter Wright would have to resign, adding: "The enormity of the disaster, and the extent to which the inquiry blames the police, demand this."

And it added: "The defensive, and at times close to deceitful, behaviour by the senior officers in South Yorkshire sounds depressingly familiar. Too many senior policemen seem to lack the capacity or character to perceive and admit faults in their organisation."

The report, the memo added, would "sap confidence in the police force" and could encourage aggressive behaviour by fans who would feel "vindicated" by its conclusions.

But in a handwritten note, Mrs Thatcher made it clear that she did not want to give the government's full backing to Lord Taylor's criticisms, only to the way in which he had conducted his inquiry and made recommendations for action.

She wrote: "What do we mean by 'welcoming the broad thrust of the report'? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome? Surely we welcome the thoroughness of the report and its recommendations - M.T."

To put it another way, none of what the fans did merited the subsequent behaviour of the authorities (and those whose job it was to hold them accountable) which was wholly done to deflect the blame they deserved.

'But seeing Nick get vilified for an assumption that really wasn't that much of a stretch also doesn't seem very fair IMO either.' i.e. with regard to blaming fans.

I'd point you to post 204 where I said... 'Don't go thinking therefor I was implying this means a transference of blame from the state to the fan.'

I've never once blamed the fans or implied this. People have taken it upon themselves to choose this angle, then believe it. Slightly ironic considering the effect The Sun had on tarnishing reputations on Merseyside.

This tragedy happened due to many little mistakes and some whopping ones, there isn't just one person, one sole villain who was ultimately responsible for this and there was a multitude of little things happening that led up to the idiotic idea of opening the gates.

"Thatcher never once visited Liverpool..."

You're wrong there. How do I know? Because her limo in police convoy nearly ran me over the day after (or very soon after anyway) the L8 Riots as I was walking home from school crossing Hall Lane. I looked to my left as I dodged this hurtling black car going towards Edge Lane and there she was, plain as day sitting in the back deep in conversation.

And yes they were speeding. There's a footnote to that whole story if I hadn't been so quick on my feet as a lad eh?

That's my fears in post no.1 manifesting in reality. What I was guarding against has transpired on these very pages.

You thought I meant something else and ran with it. You continue to be wrong.

However you say 'there is nothing more than the truth'. You can read from my posts above that we can in the least agree on that.

Nothing else to add.

You appear to be unfamiliar with the remit of the Hillsborough Independent Panel.

You also appear to be unfamiliar with Thatcher's 'form'..

The truth will eventually come out... pity you appear to be using this thread to rather churlishly pre-empt it.... ironic really, given your first post.

I did feel a bit sick though.

However the consequence of this, as we have seen in many many tragedies from 9/11 to the death of Lady Di, is that people become hyper sensitive to anything that can be seen as conflicting with their views and are prone to vent their anger on a third party. Get a group of humans together, inject emotion and you will often find those outside the group are not trusted. Not right or wrong — just human nature.

My view is that it was a tragedy and made worse as many tried to cover up their mistakes and made it worse.

I think everone here agrees with that?

I think stretching this into a class war is a little bit too much and possibly a source of conflict here. Because there was a Tory Govt at the time and cover up then 2+2 = 5. In the 23 years since there have successive governments of Labour and Tory (even Liberal now!) and you can guarantee that if there was political capital in this it would have been made in that time. There was none made in the Commons yesterday. There is no "football class" even though most attendees at Hillsborough would probably have been labelled working class. Trevor Hicks owns his own business and stated yesterday that he was a Thatcher supporter.

People may well link SYP with the Miner's Strike evermore but in my view, anyone who attended away matches at Sheffield or Leeds in the 80s knows what kind of a bunch of pieces of work these people were from personal experience. I don't know whether that is chicken or egg I just know they seemed to hate everyone who they decided they did not like rather than act as even handed coppers. They obviously did not like football fans.

As I have posted elsewhere my most vivid memory of South Yorks Police is 16 months before H'boro when we played Wednesday in I think the third or fourth replay of the FAC3 when we stuffed them 5-0. My coach was stopped multiple times "searching for alcohol" including with 5 mins to go to kick-off when they could see people were getting angry and anxious and had no intention of putting the KO back. My overriding impression is that they were deliberately antagonising so they could arrest anyone who objected. I only missed a few mins and saw all the goals but more than half the away fans didn't get in until after half time when all the action was over.

What a bunch of charmers the SYP were. My memory is that the only two police forces that acted in this manner were SYP and the West Midlands force. Coincidence? I don't really recall problems travelling with any police forces other than these.

Like other people here I was at Villa Park that day and it could have easily been us at Hillsborough but for the luck of a draw.

Your opinions are wrong, ignorant and not welcome. After all the work and years of those who demanded the truth, to then have some gobshite like yerself come out with such rubbish is offensive and obscene.

You say that... "[for some in Liverpool] only total and outright blame on the establishment and total and outright exoneration of the fans is good enough for some people, and nothing in-between is acceptable."

It is not others, but YOU who refuse to accept the truth, rather than your own version. This report completely exonerates the fans, even the Prime Minister made that absolutely, categorically clear in Parliament yesterday.

There was a cover-up, and libel against the fans, and the dead. Even The Sun now says that.

So get head out of yer arse, and if you have nothing useful to say, like "sorry, I was being twat", yer can piss off.

"Maybe they will now understand what Juve fans and families went through on that other awfull [sic] day for football" - what in God's name does that mean? Do I need to lose one of my children in a disaster to understand what other parents have gone through?

The parents have not been looking for 'compensation', or at least not in the sense that I suspect you mean. Nor are they looking for 'scapegoats' - they are looking for 'perpetrators'. Not the same thing at all.

Your last paragraph seems to miss the point entirely.

Sadly what was feared by many came to pass, and that was a conspiracy at the top level of government and public administration. Such behaviour is not new, has been perpetuated by governments and corporations for generations, and will again in the future, but probably with a bit more "malice of forethought".

If there is any positives to come out of this, it will be the holding to account of those who were criminally responsible. I doubt it will happen – the length of time that has passed means many are already dead, or are in retirement with access to sufficient funds, probably public, to get a good lawyer who will play every health card and other delaying tactics to ensure the accountability sought by the families remains the last challenge.

Ending it there.

This thread is the best example.

If there was cause for claiming victory (not a good term but it will have to do) it was the release of the truth, not what that truth is.

As it is, the report has provided 2 main points. 1. that lives could have been saved. 2. that there was a cover up that sought to smear scousers. Those points are in order of significance. The 2nd is done now, the 1st still needs to be looked at.

That said, I've found reading the reports today quite upsetting. It wasn't a surprise to see a cover up – but the lengths my country went to smear my city is an upsetting surprise. Fuck me, are we really considered so badly that the state could do that? And I include the Government – they should have been critical of the reports. The truth didn't come out because they didn't want it to.

On the other matters raised on the thread... I think that the club have basically turned JFT96 into a sickening piece of marketing. The club and fans seem to forget Heysel or, even worse, lump it in with Hillsborough as if the death of their own has somehow levelled the scorecard. None of that diminishes my condolences or respect for those that lost people.

I don't see why all of this can't be discussed by adults. It's as if Hillsborough has become the ultimate taboo. Any discussion beyond spouting taglines like "JFT96" or "die Duckenfield you cunt" is considered non PC.

You have my sympathy (if not 100% exact experience) for any loss you may have suffered, but some of what you have written is out of order.

How can anyone, even in a weak moment, look at the events of Hillsborough as somehow balancing those at Heysel? Do you really think no Liverpool fans truly regretted what happened at Heysel as soon as it happened? Who are you accusing of only waking up to that tragedy now? Or do you think that the families of those who lost their lives at Hillsborough are deserving of sharing the pain of those who lost loved ones at Heysel?

Who are the 'them' and the 'they' you refer to in such a denigratory way? My brother and his friend were in that part of the crowd on the day. Fortunately they were able to scramble up to the section above, but then they (and many others) became part of the amateur 'emergency services' that tried to help others much less fortunate than themselves. I know they aren't looking for 'blood and recompense' and are not shouting 'loud enough for the whole country to hear'.

'at last all the relatives and families can hold their heads up high and with dignity' - it isn't other people knowing that makes you hold your head high and act with dignity, you do that because you already know. This was all about bringing to light the callous and shameful actions of those who sought only to protect their own reputations, which demonstrates nicely that some justice can be delivered after all this time and the true perpetrators have not covered their tracks too well.

Sometimes it is the other way around, where Liverpudlians are made to think they are not allowed to grieve for those who died at Hillsborough because they are jointly held accountable for the deaths at Heysel.

There was a need for pressure to be maintained on the authorities to get the inquiry that led to the results published yesterday, so it is hard to criticise LFC for supporting that campaign so vigorously.

Unfortunately, the modern way seems to be for people to assume the mantle of grief by the remotest association. For me, the family and friends of those who lost loved ones and anyone who was affected by actually being present are the only ones for which the Hillsborough tragedy has a true meaning.

Responsibility works differently. The events at Heysel should be honestly and deeply regretted by all associated with LFC, and I think that all I personally know do, but anyone who is aware of those events has some responsibility for making sure they don't happen again.

My heart goes out to the families and friends of those who died and I hope that national awareness has now been raised to this issue and the proper action will be taken.

One interesting thing on the radio yesterday was the journalists who had severe reservations about the stories coming out of Whites at the time, and were reluctant to print them. Strange that few (any?) followed up on those doubts in the months that followed...

Thats another argument. Thanks for response. Always good to know you are read on TW.

I agree that it wasn't only an attack on Mersyside in fact in that direction it was only an attack on the Liverpool supporters who were there. In reality it was an attack on every normal person, it was the arrogance of the police, the politicians and the media in believing that they could shift the blame for total incompetence from themselves to a group of fans.

It is forever to the credit of the pressure groups and perhaps even modern politicians for in the end getting to the truth. I'd love to see a remembrance March maybe in London where we normal fans and people remember the dead fans and remind the ruling classes and their media stooges that we exist and are watching them.