Face-to-face fan consultation begins over new stadium

Monday, 2 April, 2018 303comments  |  Jump to most recent
Dan Meis began the next phase of supporter engagement over the proposed ground at Bramley-Moore Dock today with workshops at St Luke's Church.

With Everton having solicited feedback from fans with a survey based on 11 Key Principles that will guide the move away from Goodison Park, Meis, selected to design the club's new stadium on Liverpool's north docks, is meeting with fans at the site of the Blues' current home to gather further ideas and present initial concepts.

The first images of those concept ideas have been surfacing on social media and they feature components that have been prominent in the minds of many Evertonians when thinking about the new development, including proximity of the stands to the pitch, a large, imposing home end and the possibility of a safe-standing section.

The new main stand featuring executive boxes, press corps section and prominent disabled supporters area


A "north stand" concept with what Meis hopes would be the UK's biggest stadium screen


Meis's concepts include possible safe-standing options at the new ground

Article continues below video content



East stand concept with the away supporters' corner and further disabled seating positions


The proposed new stadium overlaid on top of Goodison Park for comparison

Images © Meis Studio from Twitter via @ToffeeTV

The conversation around capacity has been a prominent one over the past couple of weeks, ever since CEO Robert Elstone's remarks at a Liverpool business meeting in which he intimated that the capacity at Bramley-Moore Dock would not represent a massive jump from Goodison's ~40,000.

Meis himself has also hinted that the maximum attendance at the new ground would be guided by the need for intimacy and to create an intimidating venue and he has backed that up again today.

Meis was quoted as saying that while 99% of Evertonians want a 50,000-plus capacity, he is cautious of going as high as 60,000, the number favoured by the majority of Blues.

According to the Liverpool Echo's Chris Beesley, he says that he believes in scarcity of seats and the importance of selling out a venue. He said that the last 10,000 seats in a stadium are the most expensive and bring in the least revenue."

 

Reader Comments (303)

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Colin Glassar
1 Posted 02/04/2018 at 18:50:08
Safe standing in part of the New Gwladys Street. Looks ace tbh.

But what the fuck is 1878-style seating? And what the fuck is a Vomitory? Somewhere to spew up safely?

Love the look of it. At last!!!

Gerry Quinn
2 Posted 02/04/2018 at 18:54:02
I will like the look of it, same as Colin, when we actually get to see it... if that is the stand, then you will be feckin freezin at the top end, even in May!
Brian Williams
3 Posted 02/04/2018 at 18:54:40
Col. How do I get to see it, mate? I don't do Twatter or Fakebook.
John G Davies
4 Posted 02/04/2018 at 18:56:20
Only Everton would have meetings to allow fans an input to design.

Just build it, for fuck's sake.

Peter Laing
5 Posted 02/04/2018 at 18:57:35
The home end has a distinctive Dortmund Yellow wall, or in our case blue wall feel to it. Looks like capacity will between 50 and 60k – 55,000 seems to be realistic.
Keith Harrison
6 Posted 02/04/2018 at 19:15:33
Is it me, or does that just look like a re-vamped Goodison?? With the Church built over.
Steve Hogan
7 Posted 02/04/2018 at 19:16:32
This development with the potential seating plan and layout of the new stadium is really positive news and a welcome beacon of light amongst the current doom and gloom.

It will be even more interesting to see the external façade of the stadium and how it reflects the local heritage of the surrounding dockland.

The club and its respective partners in the project now need to press on and get the 'funding' in place. We need to see 'spades in the ground'. That may shut the doubters up.

Make it happen, Everton.

David McMulllen
8 Posted 02/04/2018 at 19:16:34
Lacking double-decker stands. It would be great on the main stand there, but otherwise pretty stylish. Needs to be 60,000 plus.

It registered that it's superimposed over Goodison's footprint and is much bigger. Can't argue with that like.

Dermot Byrne
9 Posted 02/04/2018 at 19:21:50
Looking closely at the drawings, I see on Main Stand there is a "Field Vomitory".

So Sam staying long term then.
Paul Tran
10 Posted 02/04/2018 at 19:25:22
Brian (#3), these are the pictures I've seen on Twitter.

Looks good to me, but there's a long way to go.

Big thing for me is seeing what we can build on the site before getting hung up on numbers.

Joe McMahon
11 Posted 02/04/2018 at 19:28:10
If this is anything to go by, I love it. Lets just hope it happens just hope it doesn't take years.
Brian Williams
12 Posted 02/04/2018 at 19:29:09
David (#8).

There're double-decker (at least) stands on three out of four sides, mate.

Gareth Prytherch
13 Posted 02/04/2018 at 19:29:35
I've just got back and I have to say that the plans were purely stadium interiors so there are no roof images and only mood boards for the concourse and exteriors.

This isn't a complaint, Dan Meis is very clearly very excited to share renderings of the exterior when allowed to do so.

In terms of layers or cantilevering he did explain that it's a lot more expensive and gives less concourse space inside.

There were also side elevation images showing the distance from the pitch of all the seats and comparisons with other stadiums. The only one that compares will be the new Stamford Bridge with the London Stadium being almost double the distance.

He also talked about taking elements of Goodison with us but not in a cheesy – Las Vegas – way but in a subtle, tasteful way.

The biggest thing I took away from the event is that ‘he gets it', ‘he gets the club', ‘he gets us' – I am really positive and can't wait to see the full renderings.

Brian Williams
14 Posted 02/04/2018 at 19:29:40
Cheers, Paul (#10).
David McMulllen
15 Posted 02/04/2018 at 19:35:59
Yeah, Brian (#12),

Yes as in 'tiers' but not 'double-decker' – Top Balcony style, so to speak.

Dermot Byrne
16 Posted 02/04/2018 at 19:38:30
Keith (#6)

I suspect the only difference might be die-for location, good catering, floors without wood rot, boxes to bring in decent income, an ability to see the whole pitch, a better atmosphere, proper disabled facilities etc – and that is just the inside.

The real challenge will be to improve on that beautiful prefab chic of the outside of Goodison. To me, corrugated metal offsetting decidedly poor church architecture will be so hard to beat.

In the absence of new songs, at least in the new one we can sing "If ya know yer history" with a bit of gentle humour.

Joe McMahon
17 Posted 02/04/2018 at 19:49:59
Keith (#6) – how about a stadium to be proud of!
Bill Watson
18 Posted 02/04/2018 at 19:51:33
Overall, I thought it was a very positive meeting. It will sit North to South with the main stand being alongside the river and (if I'm not mistaken) the big home end on the South side, ie, nearest town.

Dan Meis reassured me that rising ocean levels will be factored into the plans – thus dashing the RS hopes that it'll be submerged in 30 years.

Daniel A Johnson
19 Posted 02/04/2018 at 19:55:58
So if it is 50,000 it would be a capacity less than recently promoted Newcastle United and only 1.5k more than soon-to-be-relegated-twice Sunderland.

My gut impression is that its being done on the cheap. A capacity of 50k is not forward thinking at all. We are spending hundreds of millions to get a measly 10k boost on capacity

One last thing – please god, let it be a symmetrical stadium – not a mish-mash of odd shapes.

I'm 100% unimpressed.

Drew O'Neall
20 Posted 02/04/2018 at 20:02:17
Two points from me:

I thought the majority of fans had favoured a square design, this illustrates a “bowl” concept.

To allow for future “safe standing”, the home “wall” has been designed with a more “shallow rake” which will result in less home fans being close to the pitch reducing the intimidation factor of having a single wall of seats.

This compromise doesn't make sense for me and we would be better putting the “shallow rake” for safe standing in a different part of the ground, possibly the opposite end, which could even resulti in us having two “loud” ends to kick towards.

George Cumiskey
21 Posted 02/04/2018 at 20:15:28
Isn't it strange... a hammering on Saturday – the new stadium pictures come out on Monday, or is it me just being cynical?
Dermot Byrne
22 Posted 02/04/2018 at 20:29:32
Two “loud” ends"???

Verging on fantasy in modern Premier League...

,"two “loud“ ends" ?

Verging on fantasy in modern PL

,,michael.kenrick@gmail.com ,1,20:22:27,,90.204.68.198,ok,19546,04/02/2018 20:22:27,debyrne,reader,, 908122,36467,toffeeweb,02/04/2018,Ian Burns,penedes9@gmail.com,"Gareth (#13) and Bill (#18) – Thanks for those brief notes, appreciated.

At last, I can believe this is all happening and it looks terrific from the plans/drawings produced thus far.

Question: Who is going to have the honour of putting the first spade in?

Brent Stephens
23 Posted 02/04/2018 at 20:29:59
Did anybody ask about any implications of the sewage treatment works next door?
Alan McGuffog
24 Posted 02/04/2018 at 20:30:38
Well that's sorted then. Some smallish details to be ironed out...you know, planning permission and such. Oh and finding half a billion quid down the back of the sofa.

Sorry, lads... just dream on. Gillmoss, here we come!!!

Brent Stephens
25 Posted 02/04/2018 at 20:33:50
What's the basis for saying we won't raise the finances, Alan? Apart from a vague guess?
David McMulllen
26 Posted 02/04/2018 at 20:42:43
"Meis was quoted as saying that while 99% of Evertonians want a 50,000-plus capacity, he is cautious of going as high as 60,000, the number favoured by the majority of Blues".

The last couple of paragraphs, I hate this downplaying of the size in favour of either intimacy or keeping the tickets in demand. It still lacks confidence in our fan base and the size of our club. I don't get it at all. 60,000 plus it must be to match our competitors. Presumably that means 50k Newcastle then?

Chad Schofield
27 Posted 02/04/2018 at 20:43:52
I think it's great they're consulting the fans... of course, not everyone will be happy, but it should mean that we'll get something good.
Steve Carse
28 Posted 02/04/2018 at 20:44:15
I'm not impressed by the three-tier approach. It just serves to break up the transporting of noise unless the acoustics are really good.

Great location, I agree. But, for half a billion plus, the hints being given are for a capacity of not much more than 50,000. May as well just expand the Park End by 5,000 and modernise the Main Stand roofing to allow the removal of the ugly pillars that currently hold it up and obscure so many views, saving Mishiri £450m (to spend on overhauling our pathetic squad).

It's not going to happen, of course, since Moshiri and his backers' prime focus is the whole northern docks area with the massive potential for the development and expansion of the city.

Paul Jones
29 Posted 02/04/2018 at 20:45:33
That second photo - 1878 stand. Can someone please explain what on earth a 'vomitory' is? Somewhere to throw up once the fans have seen 45 minutes of player non-comiital?
Brent Stephens
30 Posted 02/04/2018 at 20:46:40
Paul, the vomitory is the large exit to get the mega lawnmowers out.
Kevin Tully
31 Posted 02/04/2018 at 20:49:03
I'm a little confused (nothing new there). Is the point of these consultations to ask fans what they think of the design? Or if they have any ideas of their own to add to the outline plans?

Only thing is, after spending fortunes on hospitality over the past 10 years, a pal of mine said he'd been asking Everton for a decent bottled beer and some other drinks to be made available, just like every other Premier League ground.

He says the club just ignore him and every other request anyone makes. He tells me it's now a running joke. You can't exactly take your custom elsewhere, can you?

Meis definitely has the look of a young Philip Green, though!

Dermot Byrne
32 Posted 02/04/2018 at 20:57:08
Steve Carse: "Not going to happen, of course, since Moshiri and his backers' prime focus is the whole northern docks area with the massive potential for the development and expansion of the city."

I may be misinterpreting you but when you say the above, is that the good side as you see it?

Danny O'Neill
34 Posted 02/04/2018 at 20:58:54
Drew,

I think the design is trying to accommodate the fans' wish to have a more square design whilst avoiding wasting valuable (and profitable) space. The overlay on top of Goodison shows just how much wastage there is even without the higher level extension beyond the current footprint. It also shows how hemmed in we are and why (sadly) a re-vamped Goodison is not an option.

Looking at the designs and taking them at face value, where the stadium meets the pitch, it does so at four points; like a square / rectangle.

Call me pedantic, but even externally that doesn't look like a bowl to me. Last time I looked, even an extended 8 sided shape was called an octagon.

Brian Williams
35 Posted 02/04/2018 at 20:59:25
David (#15).

Ah... you mean as in one directly on top of the other?

Mark Wilson
36 Posted 02/04/2018 at 21:04:56
Great stuff, just so TW, a nice thread with interesting information and the usual smattering of “It's all bollocks and I totally hate every provisional design image I've seen and how can we trust anyone who uses a big word like 'vomitory'?”
Rob Halligan
37 Posted 02/04/2018 at 21:08:41
Never in my life have I heard the word 'Vomitory'.

Definition of vomitory, plural vomitories: an entrance piercing the banks of seats of a theater, amphitheater, or stadium.

Karl Masters
38 Posted 02/04/2018 at 21:09:19
That doesn't look like it would have any more than 50,000 capacity to me.

In fact it doesn't look that impressive to me – very bitty with lots of interruptions and those vomitories should be in the corners not almost behind the goals in prime viewing positions .

I thought concept design is usually what makes you go "Wow!" And the real thing is usually a watered down version, hope it's the other way round this time.

I'm underwhelmed, but maybe these are preliminary designs? I really hope so. Anybody saying it will look better with a roof – yes I agree, but 3 sides of the Nou Camp have no roof and that is impressive. Not sure about this tbh.

Lori Fekete
39 Posted 02/04/2018 at 21:12:42
I have confidence that Dan Meis will deliver something exciting in the end, but I can't help but feel disappointed in what I've just seen.

After months of emphasising the intimate atmosphere importance, it looks like any other ground. I was expecting a much steeper gradient. A much larger imposing 'Dortmund'-style safe-standing end.

55,000 should be an absolute minimum. West Ham are getting over that attendance and they absolutely hate their stadium and have an even worse team.

Richard Reeves
40 Posted 02/04/2018 at 21:14:15
Looks a right mess, what I would expect of a rebuild of Goodison – not a state-of-the-art, unique new build on the waterfront.
Bill Watson
41 Posted 02/04/2018 at 21:23:22
Lori (#40),

Totally agree that 55,000 should be the minimum.

Karl Masters
42 Posted 02/04/2018 at 21:24:16
I agree 100%, Lori Fekete.

The kudos of a bigger stadium than Liverpool, Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea should not be underestimated.

Spurs are the blueprint for us on and off the pitch. Ironic when you think Green and Earl, a pair of cock(erel)s, had so much influence over this Club for so long.

Danny Baily
43 Posted 02/04/2018 at 21:27:46
Looks great! Just get the damn thing built ASAP.
David McMulllen
44 Posted 02/04/2018 at 21:29:23
Yeah Brian (36).
Alan McGuffog
45 Posted 02/04/2018 at 21:35:46
Brent. No basis at all except for my being a long suffering Evertonian. I would LOVE us to move to a beautiful new stadium on the docks... but 'Everton' and 'fuck-up' seem to be synonymous, no?
Peter Mills
46 Posted 02/04/2018 at 21:45:33
I applied to attend one of these consultation meetings, but it looks like I’ve missed the cut.

I look forward to further comments from those who have been there.

Andy Crooks
47 Posted 02/04/2018 at 21:54:17
I believe there is no such thing as "safe standing"; in my view, it is a throwback to grim days and should not be considered in any modern stadium.
Colin Glassar
48 Posted 02/04/2018 at 21:55:34
I love the look of it but isn't it a bit of a coincidence that, after another spanking on Saturday, we get a glimpse of a possible blueprint?

I wonder what they've got lined up for next week? Pictures of the roof?

Dermot Byrne
49 Posted 02/04/2018 at 21:57:32
We all have that feeling at times, Alan. Know what you mean. Then, other times, we dare to dream... and face the consequences.

Tonight, I am with Lori and have confidence in Dan Meis. It seems we have a new doubt or bad rumour every week and we all crawl back into our fearful selves. But the project slowly plods on and we sheepishly re-emerge!

I think it was Moshiri who recognised the importance of the first spade in the ground to show this is actually going to happen. I agree and when it does start being built, that will be so exciting.

Of course, it will never ever be exciting for some – life just isn't – but for most of us.

Dermot Byrne
50 Posted 02/04/2018 at 21:58:45
Good and very fast event planning, Col.
Brian Hennessy
51 Posted 02/04/2018 at 22:01:00
I like what I am seeing so far – especially the idea of a "Blue Wall".

It will be interesting to see what the outer facade will be like. I'm in favour of brick to tie in with the docks and it would be great to have something different with some character and not just another modern bowl.

Brent Stephens
52 Posted 02/04/2018 at 22:01:41
Alan:

"'Everton' and 'fuck-up' seem to be synonymous, no?"

Afraid that's too often true, Alan! But let's wait till they piss on this bag of chips before we mock them!

Alan McGuffog
53 Posted 02/04/2018 at 22:17:08
Fair play, Brent.

But as Uncle Mort (I Didnt Know You Cared) used to say..."The trouble with this world is that there's too much bloody optimism!"

Let's hope it's vinegar, eh, not piss...

Peter Lee
54 Posted 02/04/2018 at 22:23:18
I was at the Allianz Arena last week. 70,000 built 10 years ago for €340M.

Entry to the first two tiers is level with the external ground level, which covers an underground car park. Upper two tiers are suspended above the lower on reinforced concrete columns. The three tiers flow upwards and the higher seats are some way from the pitch.

I'm not an engineer but it seems that they could have built partly out over the lower tier to add to the intimidation factor.

Seats were comfortable and significantly wider than at Goodison Park.

Kevin Tully
55 Posted 02/04/2018 at 22:24:29
I certainly wouldn't be worried about "vomitories" (a new name for the bogs in The Winslow) or capacity issues at this stage.

If we manage to pull this off, it would be a massive coup for everyone concerned. I am hoping and praying we all witness the diggers moving on to Bramley-Moore next summer.

Tony Marsh
56 Posted 02/04/2018 at 22:25:53
Brilliant! Fantastic!! Absolutely Amazing!!!

Now, all we need is the finance to pay for it, along with the planning permission to be granted to build it, which must be granted by a Kopite love-in council committee. Let's not forget, we are asking this same council to arrange a loan for EFC to pay for the lion's share of this build deal. It is all well and good looking at imaginary drawings but the reality is a lot different. A lot more worrying.

There are more obstacles to this deal at Bramley-Moore Dock than any fans' survey, forum or meeting in a church will ever understand. This Bramley-Moore stadium situation is much more than just throwing up a new ground in a run-down part of the City. The whole area looks like Dresden after WW2 and that's no disrespect meant to the poor souls in Germany.

Again, this evening, I drove home along the Dock Road to avoid all the road works that start from just after Bootle down to the Tia Pan. It's not a pretty sight. Needs a development of Salford Quay proportions. Is that feasible?? I am not sure it is really. If the stadium build and dock drainage is coming in at around £500 million, I can only imagine how much is needed for the infrastructure repairs. Another £500 million wouldn't scratch the surface.

My honest opinion is the project is too big, too expensive, and would take too long to ever get off the ground. For those of you who don't know Liverpool so well, this proposed site at Bramley-Moore is a billion miles away from the Kings Dock location. Kings Dock is bang in the middle of town, next door to the Albert Dock and Liverpool One. Bramley Moore is next door to a sewerage Plant in a forgotten part of the City. Enough said, Guys. Sorry.

Andrew Clare
57 Posted 02/04/2018 at 22:30:40
Stop saying 55k minimum. It should be 60k minimum. We will fill it no problem. Look at the evidence all clubs with new stadiums have increased attendances significantly.
Brent Stephens
58 Posted 02/04/2018 at 22:30:56
Alan (#54) – I heard that, pardon! Another of my favourites.
Anthony Murphy
59 Posted 02/04/2018 at 22:47:41
Not as blown away as I was hoping. Still, happy to wait and see. Please not 50k, it just isn’t going to satisfy demand in the current market.. Did the Archibald Leitch criss-cross which signifies our home more than anything else feature in his ideas?
Karl Masters
60 Posted 02/04/2018 at 23:12:51
Of course, only Everton could date these plans April 1. Fool's Gold? Haha!
Gareth Prytherch
61 Posted 02/04/2018 at 23:31:14
Anthony (#60) Yes! But not necessarily in the way it is now. Dan Meis was talking about the possibility of using it to front the bars on the concourse. I'm not a designer but I got the gist and like the thinking.

Much of tonight was about the technical stuff about the site and particularly the seating rather than the aesthetics but there was enough (for me anyway), about the design ideas, to be happy that he knows what he's doing and understands the fans.

He is clearly being held back from giving all of the information he has at the moment. Frustrating but I think the club are trying, possibly too hard, to manage the flow of information. Once bitten, and all that...

Karl Masters
62 Posted 02/04/2018 at 23:31:59
Blue wall capacity overlaid on the Park End looks roughly twice as many seats as now, so 12,000 approximately. Other end only about 7-8,000 seats maximum. Indicates capacity is 50,000-ish to me.

Spurs ‘home' End has 17,500 seats. Rest of stadium is 3 tier, capacity: 62,000.

Google it, then look at this, draw your own comparisons. Me? Disappointed.

But, wait for it... we'll have the biggest telly in Europe!

Gavin Johnson
64 Posted 02/04/2018 at 23:40:56
Anthony (#60),

I've seen a pic on Twitter that suggests the Archibald Leitch criss-cross will feature within bar/hospitality areas of the ground.

My impression is generally positive. I'm not sure about the score board end. Reminds me of the score board end at the old White Hart Lane. It doesn't look like a 60,000 stadium on the basis of that end of the ground to me.

From the pics, maybe 55.000 at a push. It has to be 55k minimum. Anything less is showing the same lack of foresight that we had when the board said that the plans for the new Park End would be more than sufficient in the early days of the Premier League.

David Hadwin
65 Posted 02/04/2018 at 23:45:18
Most of you seem to think size matters? It's what you do with it that counts...

Having been going to games since the end of the golden 80s era, in how many games do you think we'd have filled 60,000? You lot are off your head. Some of you forget the likes of Newcastle are a one-team city.

There will be a very fine balance between extra seats and 25 years worth ££ in repaying the stadium.

For one I'm happy with a new 40k stadium that packs out every week and spend the money on the team imagine a 60,000-seater stadium with 10,000 empty seats every week, great atmosphere that would be... not!

COYB.

Rob Dolby
66 Posted 02/04/2018 at 23:52:42
Has anyone seen the Emirates or stadium of light recently on the TV or even the Ethiad.

Don't get me wrong: If we do move, I want it to be groundbreaking, multi-functional, and the envy of the rest of the Premier League. I want to be able to enjoy the experience as well as the football.

I don't want to be embarrassed by thousands of empty spaces. I hope we can generate an atmosphere and not oversize but have the ability to extend if the needs comes to it.

What Premier League ground has the best atmosphere? In my opinion, it's Palace, not the soulless big boys. Most other grounds are lifeless places that want to take the most money from you and provide the least amount with the away fans making the atmosphere.

Man City haven't even sold out their ground for the champions league clash against Liverpool. Arsenal are running out of excuses as to why their ground is half-empty... whilst Sunderland are in total free fall.

The club have to box clever by maximising the corporate and floating fan base whilst retaining existing support. Moshiri also needs to keep ploughing money into the 1st team squad otherwise a new stadium means nothing if the team is awful.

Paul Smith
67 Posted 02/04/2018 at 23:56:56
You don't want much then, Rob.
Alan Smith
68 Posted 03/04/2018 at 00:06:53
I can't believe the middle of the new Bullens Stand and new Park End stand aren't private boxes. I wanted the disabled areas to have premium viewing but surely the area marked out in the main stand are enough?

The capacity has to be 61,878. 50,000 is a lack of ambition and so is the so few private boxes.

The actual look of stadium design is perfect in my opinion because as some have already suggested it closely resembles Goodison Park and retains intimacy.

The bigger the safe standing area, the better

Tony Stanley
69 Posted 03/04/2018 at 00:26:36
Field Vomitory? Why is the safe-standing area in front of the seated area?
Bill Watson
70 Posted 03/04/2018 at 00:27:35
Colin (#49),

I understand where you're coming from but these meetings have been planned for weeks.

Rob Halligan
71 Posted 03/04/2018 at 00:33:45
Alan.

I was told back in January that there would not be that many executive boxes in the new stadium. Probably less than what the RS's new stand holds. The stadium was to be built for the fans, and not the Prawn Sandwich brigade. I believe there will be about 75 boxes in total. The RS's new stand has over 7000 corporate seats.

I've always said that corporate facilities is where the most money is generated, but as many have told me, if we have between, say, 200 – 300 corporate boxes, could we sell them all? I don't know. You sometimes see the boxes in front of the main stand where maybe one of two are not occupied.

Still, we shall wait and see.

Drew O'Neall
72 Posted 03/04/2018 at 00:42:47
Dan (#35),

The reason I state it's a bowl is because it is labelled on the third diagram above, but I do take your point. I would have thought ‘bowl' or ‘square' would refer to the exterior appearance and the space would be optimised as you describe in either scenario.

Stephen Davies
73 Posted 03/04/2018 at 00:58:07
Google 'Buro Happold Everton' (leaked papers) possible pics of inside, roof and outside.

Very similar to Juve Stadium if you Google their stadium images.

Stephen Davies
74 Posted 03/04/2018 at 00:59:37
http://members.boardhost.com/peoplesforum/msg/1522712901.html
Simon Smith
75 Posted 03/04/2018 at 01:06:37
Like the look of inside, but what about the outside?
Gareth Prytherch
76 Posted 03/04/2018 at 01:20:41
Although there are ideas for having safe standing areas, it’s worth remembering that in England it would require a law change.

It’s not as simple as the club or designers choosing to do it.

Gareth Prytherch
77 Posted 03/04/2018 at 01:23:30
Stephen (#74 & #75). I would be amazed if any of those are even close to the design. The palette was very old, industrial. Red brick, Steel, Glass.

However, there was no real info so I'm only assuming.

Derek Thomas
79 Posted 03/04/2018 at 01:43:30
Gareth @77; also, anybody seated behind or to the sides of a safe standing area whose view is obstructed will stand to see... and thus be in an unsafe standing area.

You're never going to please everybody.

What's the outside going to look like?

Start digging, ffs.

Stephen Davies
80 Posted 03/04/2018 at 01:54:05
I don't know, Gareth... it's just something I found that seemed interesting.

Now that the general images are released, I'm sure it wont be too long before the full inside, roof and outdoor images are released.

As a matter of interest, do you have any relatives in the northeast? You have an unusual surname and I used to work with someone with the same name in the past.

John Smith
81 Posted 03/04/2018 at 02:00:55
Big plus: No Obstructed views!!!! lol
Laurie Hartley
82 Posted 03/04/2018 at 02:53:10
Bill Watson (#18) – can you confirm that the pitch will be running North to South, in other words, parallel to the river?

Also, was there any talk of whether the pitch will be at or below the existing quay level? In other words is the dock going to be completely filled in?

On the eight sided configuration - I think that is a good thing. The people seated at the corners won't have to turn their heads much to see every part of the pitch. They will be good seats, I reckon.

Brian Sephton
83 Posted 03/04/2018 at 04:42:39
Danny (#35), it is a lozenge shape rather than an octagon to be really accurate, the seating obviously is in straight lines but that doesn't need to relate to the exterior.

I am really happy the disabled are getting a better view and that they are being realistic with the capacity. 61,878 means nothing really, no more than 51,878. The incorporation of the bits of Goodison is a great idea but it must not end up tatty.

Stephen Davies
84 Posted 03/04/2018 at 05:21:40
Scrap my post... those pics are from 2017.
Dermot Byrne
85 Posted 03/04/2018 at 07:10:05
Tony Marsh... do some research on the future... Peel etc in North Liverpool. Then try some frigging balance for once, you miserable sod!
Paul A Smith
86 Posted 03/04/2018 at 07:12:57
John G Davies (#4). I thought exactly the same thing.

The 200 longest serving season ticket holders could have filled the questionnaires for everybody and watched a 60,000 capacity stadium built. That seems to be the desired size from most fans.

The longer these drawings and meetings take place, the more fans bickering about design will be inevitable.

Gerry Quinn
87 Posted 03/04/2018 at 07:24:08
Very good drawings relating to other grounds superimposed...


https://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com/2018/4/2/17190436/everton-new-stadium-designs-revealed-bramley-moore-large-steep-home-end-dortmund-yellow-wall

Colin Glassar
88 Posted 03/04/2018 at 08:14:55
Lead story in the Mail Online today. I only read that rag for the footy news, btw.
Jerome Shields
89 Posted 03/04/2018 at 08:42:05
I will only believe Everton will get a new stadium when it is built. The performance of the Everton management team and players are a concern. The process of consultation, meets, charts on walls, talking big numbers, will be a welcome diversion for Executives and the Boards.

Everton is so badly managed. . . therefore, confidence is in short supply that they will be able to manage this project.

Alan McGuffog
90 Posted 03/04/2018 at 08:53:06
We would fill a 60,000-seater probably only two or three times per season. But so what? Goodison and indeed Anfield are sold out week-in and week-out and both resemble morgues in terms of atmosphere.

Please aim for 55,000+. If the football on the pitch warrants it, then 45,000 fans will supply the noise.

Terry McLavey
91 Posted 03/04/2018 at 09:01:44
It looks great, all we need now is a decent team to play in it!
Scott Hall
92 Posted 03/04/2018 at 09:18:23
A conversation between Bill Kenwright and Robert Elstone this morning...

"Wow. I can't believe we got them again."

"I know. Every year! Every year! We throw some absolute bollocks out there and it completely distracts the lot of them."

"You'd think they'd have learned by now. It's the same time every year and it works every time!"

"Don't fix it if it isn't broken. This time next year, we'll pretend we've identified a potential financer and they'll be hooked again."

"Hahahaha. I bloody love season ticket renewal time!"

"Me too Bill. Me too!"

Michael Lynch
93 Posted 03/04/2018 at 09:30:16
John @82 – totally right! No obstructed views – let's just build it! I was in the "bigger is better" camp, thinking we needed between 60-70,000 capacity to show our ambition but right now I don't care. Anything over 45,000 will do for me, as long as we fill it every week and put together a decent attacking team under an inspirational manager. Nobody will be counting the seats if we're winning trophies.

I can't wait. But by the looks of it, I'll be eligible for a pensioner's season ticket before we even get underway.

Gavin Johnson
94 Posted 03/04/2018 at 09:30:28
Gerry (#88),

I have to agree with you mate. The impressions look impressive superimposed over other Premier League grounds. Especially given it's bigger than Anfield. That said, it's misleading knowing we could end up with something in the region of 50k.

On the whole, I'm happy with what I've seen and like the idea of the home end. The ground has to be 55.000+ plus though.

Pete Clarke
95 Posted 03/04/2018 at 09:39:52
We all know what Goodison is like so we don't need reminders in the new home. The only thing we should take to the new place is the Dixie Statue and all the fans' wall plates.

My fear with Dan Mies is that he has spent too much time with Kenwright and Moshiri so this is his 99.9% when he refers to most blues.

Wind and rain factors have to be taken into account on a big scale so the bowl shape it will probably be with hopefully no less than 60,000

Derek Thomas
96 Posted 03/04/2018 at 09:46:10
Michael @94; tbh, nobody was counting obstructed views in 1985 either
Tony Everan
97 Posted 03/04/2018 at 10:03:26
It's all a bit basic at the moment, but welcome nonetheless. It's hardly awe inspiring at the moment but hey, a picture!

However, Are we going to be sold a 50k stadium with an increase to 55k “if” the safe-standing law ever happens.

To me anything less than 55k seats and we are just a mid-table also ran in current Premier League terms and will be just running to stand still.

David McMulllen
98 Posted 03/04/2018 at 10:10:10
There's still this "arguement" between everyone (fans, the club, Meis) about the capacity and, although I'm firmly in the 60k plus camp, it's getting boring.

The club are fearful we will not fill it and want a demand for tickets at the end of the day; the club are also cautiously watching the pennies. When it comes to the construction costs, both the club and Meis are scared of empty seats.

Meis cites it's not good for an intimate/intimidating atmosphere. Many fans doubt we can fill more than 55k and there is a reasonable arguement about the London factor for London teams, the international support for Man Utd and Liverpool and the success for Man City now with their stepped-up increase in stadium capacity over time.

Fair enough. But the poll on here also tells 62/63% want 60k or more. The footprint images seem to say it's 60k plus as it matches other stadiums and bigger even!

My opinion is we need to be bold and ambitious and confident in our fan base to build a 60k plus stadium. Otherwise, who are we? Who are our rivals/peers?

We need a new stadium; we have to applaud the club for going for it, it's a big spend. But we have to match the ambitions of our rivals. These days, the top 6.

For empty seats etc, why not have a variable capacity? One that can "hide" seats for the less bigger games (in the corner for example)? How about selling tickets cheaper for these games (Category B)?

Andrew Heffernan
100 Posted 03/04/2018 at 10:18:07
If I'm honest – there are certain things I like, and certain things I don't, but at this stage they're initial drawings, and like a lot of you, if it edges towards 55,001+ I'll be happy because I think the club can attract support with the right infrastructure.

What I do like are the comparisons to rival stadiums, and the fact that he is clearly trying to fit in the fabric of the city and make it an enclosed ground (avoid all references to 'bowls' Dan!!!). We're also set to see externals and how the roof will fit. Dugout on the left... dear god its like our first ground! At least the Directors will have view over the river... call me cynical 'but'!

As we all know, this has been a long journey and there is still some mileage left in this story. I am however optimistic at least that we will finally build our new home, and lets be honest, its long overdue!

It's a long time since we honestly had something to be proud about, bar waking every morning and remembering you're a blue; I'll be buying a ticket – and I hope to see you all there.

COYB

Lyndon Lloyd
101 Posted 03/04/2018 at 10:26:42
Andy (48): 'I believe there is no such thing as "safe standing", in my view it is a throwback to grim days and should not be considered in any modern stadium.'

Andy, you should look into it. I've made the argument before on these pages and in my Place to Call Home piece last year that it can be designed to be completely safe if the sections are kept small.

As those who travel to aways and who stand the whole game on existing seated terracing, the current model is actually far more dangerous as people can get flung down several rows of seats during goal celebrations (admittedly not a big problem this season – ha ha!).

Rail seating has high barriers that prevent this and, as I say, the sections would be kept small and with allocated "seat" numbers (they can have fold-down seats too) to prevent over-crowding. it doesn't have to be anything like the "grim" old days of thousands of standing fans swaying and causing crushes against barriers and fences.

Laurie Hartley
102 Posted 03/04/2018 at 10:28:46
Gerry (#88) – thanks for the link to those images which were very informative. The sections in particular reveal that Dan Meis is not skimping on quality.

The row widths are not less than 80 cm and the sight lines "C" values between C90 and C60. Both comparable with or better than the New White Hart Lane stadium specs.

For those of us who like a bit of technical stuff, page 52 of this document is interesting reading.

Uefa Guide to Quality Stadiums

Alan McGuffog
103 Posted 03/04/2018 at 10:33:20
Lyndon, kinda playing devil's advocate here but vis-a-vis "atmosphere", with ticketed rail seating and no crushing or swaying what would be the point of standing? Suppose it would be kinder to me Nuremburgs, mind you!
Drew O'Neall
104 Posted 03/04/2018 at 10:35:21
I don't understand the fear about not selling out a 60k seater.

Sell the seats furthest away from the pitch, and so least effecting the atmosphere, last – the net effect is the same as having a 50k seater.

When we do sell out 60k, it will be extra special. When there are spare seats, sell them for buttons on the day to kids or give them to EitC.

Jimmy Salt
105 Posted 03/04/2018 at 10:40:59
Michael @94 – "I can't wait. But by the looks of it, I'll be eligible for a pensioner's season ticket before we even get underway."

Ha Ha, I used to to laugh at posts like that and think, poor old buggers. This was when we were moving to our lovely new stadium on the Kings Dock... Now, I'm watching that clock.

Anthony Murphy
106 Posted 03/04/2018 at 10:42:39
Slept on it, had another look and still not sure. I'm torn on the idea of using premier seating on three quarters for wheelchairs. Part of me thinks it's groundbreaking and fantastic but part of me also thinks we need to cater for the executive consumer too – just a reality of modern, Premier League football.

The People's Club concept may not be enough to let us compete at the top table, but at this point I just don't know. I'm also not keen on the jumbo screen end – just looks a bit mid table to me. Looking at that big jumbo screen plus the lack of executive boxes smacks of cost cutting, but I may be wrong.

John G Davies
107 Posted 03/04/2018 at 10:59:57
Dortmund don't have a problem with standing Lyndon. 25,000 standing section if I'm not mistaken.
James Morgan
108 Posted 03/04/2018 at 11:16:37
Didn't Juventus, one of Europe's biggest clubs, move in to a 41,000-seater stadium to ensure weekly sell-out and intimidating atmosphere?

Don't get me wrong, I get that English football attendances are better than Italy's but I wouldn't be disappointed with under 60k. Though 50k would be minimum for me. I reckon 55,000 with the option to expand would be a good starting point.

Brian Williams
109 Posted 03/04/2018 at 11:24:06
What I'd like to know with regard to so-called safe standing is "how the hell can you sleep through 90 minutes of dross while you're standing up"?

Oh, forgot, smiley face!

Liam Reilly
110 Posted 03/04/2018 at 11:37:12
I like it, but progress is very very slow and I won't believe it until a spade goes in the ground.
Duncan McDine
111 Posted 03/04/2018 at 11:41:32
I'm mainly excited that the new location means there will be no need for any roof at all. Bramley-Moore Dock is somewhere in California I assume?

In all seriousness, how the feck will they put a roof over that big telly? Apart from that, it's pretty good... maybe a bit daft to put the wheelchairs upstairs – if an evacuation is required, imagine the poor buggers scrambling to the lift.

Ian Jones
112 Posted 03/04/2018 at 12:00:01
Hi Tony (Marsh), not being a local, I don't know the Bramley-Moore area at all so you are probably right about the area being in a forgotten part of the City. However, isn't reviving these 'lost' areas part of what urban regeneration is all about?

I am more familiar with the City centre, Albert Dock and King's Dock area and you could say that these were perhaps also largely forgotten areas until major re-development took place. These areas turned out well.

Given a few years, I am sure we will have a stadium, that is just part of a whole development, that we will be proud of. Meanwhile, when it comes to naming parts of the stadium, we could also consider naming the various exits after the managers that have left the club. Martinez Out, Koeman Out etc.

Scott Phelps
113 Posted 03/04/2018 at 12:05:17
Not impressed with the initial plans at all. For me, this opportunity needs to used to create something unique and iconic.

these initial illustrations seem like a typical 'flat pack' stadium. looks like a bigger version of the Madjeski Stadium

http://www.footballgroundguide.com/leagues/england/championship/madejski-stadium-reading.html

Keith Young
114 Posted 03/04/2018 at 12:26:09
I totally agree with Lori (40). I am reminded of the low rake at Arsenal's Emirates 60,000+ where the low rake is more a “saucer” than a bowl. The result is completely the opposite of Goodison Park with less than 40,000. The higher rake uses less footprint thus allowing for retail, cafe, or even residential (eg student) accommodation) around the perimeter.
John Hammond
115 Posted 03/04/2018 at 12:34:06
They consult the fans and they're given shit, they don't consult the fans and they're given shit. Damned if they do... Some people are just never happy are they!

Exciting times, would be great if safe-standing becomes reality in the Premier League. As a few others are saying, bigger isn't all better when it comes to capacity.

James Ebden
116 Posted 03/04/2018 at 12:36:42
All you guys saying we "must" have 60k+ are hilarious. I bet none of you have the slightest clue about club finances.

The average cost of a seat in a stadium is around £6k, but it's not linear. to go from 55k to 60k wont just be 5k seats at £6k each, as Meis has mentioned.

As for those saying well West Ham can fill their 60k stadium so we should be able to. Yes, West Ham OCCASIONALLY get close to filling theirs, but they also massively discount the tickets trying to scrape fans in. You often see adverts in the papers for their games with £5 tickets.

So the logic is, if it costs you £50m+ to add an extra 5k seats to the stadium, yet you can barely scrape £5 per ticket to fill them (when you actually fill them as they will likely be empty for half the games), is it really worth doing it? Isn't it better to fill 55k at full ticket price? The club has to finance the repayments, yet if those expensive last 5k seats aren't actually bringing money in, they are just an expensive status symbol luxury. And if the club fails to perform on the pitch, the finances get even worse, as the repayments won't go away.

The executive box argument is the same: people saying we need more. If you were in charge of corporate hospitality at a big company, and you wanted to impress clients, would you book them a nice trip to Everton vs Stoke? Or do you think a Man City, Liverpool, or Spurs option would impress your clients more? You know, a high flying, attacking team, full of real international names and quality? Yes, it may be our ambition to join this level, but we are absolutely no where near it, and there are absolutely NO cast iron guarantees we will get there.

So yes, the club will have far better data than any of us will have, and they will be making an educated decision based on future income, attendance, league position etc. They won't, like most on here, just say lets build a bigger one so we can say ours is bigger than yours. That is school playground mentality.

If Spurs drop out of the top 6, or Arsenal, or Chelsea, once their fancy new stadiums are built, do you think they will still have money to splash on their squad? or do you think they will have to tighten their belts due to lost income and crippling repayments that may send them into a downward spiral? I for one don't want our club to go under, just for the greed of a section of fan base who want to brag about capacity we will rarely ever fill.

Deluded.

Geoffrey Williams
117 Posted 03/04/2018 at 13:31:52
A capacity of 50k would, sadly, reflect Everton's true standing in the Premier League and a testimony to the lack of ambition of the owner.
Tony Marsh
118 Posted 03/04/2018 at 13:32:39
Ian @ 113,

Hi mate. The Albert Dock and Kings Dock Area is slap bang in the middle of the City center, close to all the facilities and with minutes walking distance to the Pier head. The Bramley-Moore area is very isolated and really run down with no infrastructure in place whatsoever. This particular area of Liverpool has been all but abandoned for decades.

The dock Rd used to be the heart beat of the city but now it's derelict beyond belief. My concern is the fact that so much money would have to be generated to bring the area in to this century. Where will that finance come from? The Council are saying they will be borrowing money to lend to EFC so they don't have it.

It's all well and good discussing the roof and capacity on a new stadium but we need to get real. EFC are basically telling us they are potless yet at least a Billion quid needs to be found to make this Bramley-Moore Dock scheme viable. I am not being negative, just realistic.

It wouldn't surprise me to see government inquires start popping up over finance, feasibility studies and objections from Council members etc etc and LCC eventually walk away. Which leaves us where exactly?

Evertonians who have not yet been to the proposed site should do so before debating such things as standing only areas and Archibald Leitch designs. I promise you it will stop you in your tracks... This stadium is a million miles away from where a lot of you think it is.

James Marshall
119 Posted 03/04/2018 at 13:33:23
This whole thing about a blue wall looks like bullshit to me. The yellow wall in Dortmund is a 25,000 standing only stand. Ours is bring mooted as 12/15,000 seated Evertonians..

Have you been to the Goodison morgue lately? How anyone can see this as imposing is beyond me.

Bobby Mallon
120 Posted 03/04/2018 at 13:39:37
I like the fact that it will be a brand new Goodison on the waterfront and 50 or 55 thousand is perfect.
James Marshall
121 Posted 03/04/2018 at 13:42:17
One thing to note is that the way it overlays directly over the top of Goodison does appear to suggest it's going to be pretty much a Goodison on steroids type design.

Personally I was hoping for something wildly different (I'm not sure why) but that should appease a lot of supporters, shouldn't it?

It's also worth noting the wording on the designs as being 'bowl design'. One would imagine Meis will design more than one option before they settle on a final plan. I'm not an expert but I think that's how these things work.

Lawrence Green
122 Posted 03/04/2018 at 13:57:16
I can understand the reasoning behind those saying that a capacity over 55k is surplus to requirements; however, as somebody else pointed out where is it in the rules that any stadium has to sell out every time it's used?

There will be a naturally imposed limit on the capacity due to restrictions of the site and the financial burden on the club over the long-term.

The worrying aspect – disregarding any change in the law relating to standing – is that the capacity set at the beginning of the build, will forever be the limit on this particular site. Therefore, I do hope it's closer to 60k rather than 50k and like others have said I too see it being a compromise of circa 55k.

Biggest TV screen? What purpose does that serve, save to make the ground look a bit more filled in – unless of course they plan to show films on it, if the game is a little dull. I suppose they could relay away games on it.

As long as the club can afford to build it, albeit with a little help from its friends, then a revamped, updated version of Goodison Park is okay by me – I might just reach pensionable age by the time the doors open though.


John Pierce
123 Posted 03/04/2018 at 14:18:05
The capacity issue is about creating demand and growing the club to non Evertonians. I think that many comments are about the here and now and rightly or wrongly cannot see Everton growing and attracting non Evertonians, especially tourists.

A ground of 50-55,000 probably gets you the right size for we're Everton are. The ground I believe we shoot it for is the 60-62,000 one.

The reason if there is one to think cautiously about it is do we have a board room capable of forceful long that vision? Categorically no. Unless there is a major shakeup upstairs then I fear the small ground will be a poor legacy.

Brian Wilkinson
124 Posted 03/04/2018 at 14:20:21
More than happy with this design, right shape, interior spot on, big one-tier home stand, away fans in the corner, right in the heart of the waterfront, has to be 55k upwards for me.

Now I will ask fellow posters a different view who are not sure about the design, let's just say it was possible with all the obstacles removed, if this was a plan of Goodison how it would be if we knocked the stands down, removed obstructed views and rebuilt the extensions as outlined, with the old Goodison on the inside of the images that are shown.

How many would be more than happy with the end results? Sometimes you have to take a different outlook, I would be made up if this was Goodison, just by looking at the main stand, you can see it is not possible where it curves in towards the park stand to build a stand further out, like on the photo of the new stand, add to that the houses in the Street End, the school, church and houses side of Bullens Road.

None of these obstacles are there at Bramley-Moore Dock; not only that, with being right in the heart of the City, will be pride of place for tourists.

I personally think if we get anything close to the photos, I would be happier than at Goodison and it's obstructed views and wooden seats, but it has to be more than 50k.

Colin Malone
125 Posted 03/04/2018 at 14:25:13
Diagrams can be a bit confusing and deceiving to some people. Normally architects show a small moulded structure of the builds that are proposed. Is there one available? Is it bowl shaped or not? How big is the roof? How spacious are the refreshment areas etc etc.

Until I see such a model, I'm going to keep my opinions to myself.

Dave Abrahams
126 Posted 03/04/2018 at 14:26:59
Whatever the capacity of the new ground I think it's going to be smashing, try and look on the bright side, I am going to apply now to be one of the first to have my ashes buried behind one of the goals..
Philip Bunting
127 Posted 03/04/2018 at 14:31:05
I like the look of the interior, harks back to Goodison but with a modern feel. The end with the screen looks like it could be extended therefore future proofing expansion same with safe standing. All positive from me. 55k would be ideal with the option to extend that end with the Tele.
Sam Hoare
128 Posted 03/04/2018 at 14:34:14
Seems a bit simplistic to equate bigger with better.

Would much rather have a 55,000 seater with an electric atmosphere and intimidating crowd presence than a 65,000 seater that sounds like a graveyard.

Perhaps increased demand is something that will be factored in and a modern stadium can faciliate expansion more easily than older ones? I've no idea.

Brian Hennessy
129 Posted 03/04/2018 at 15:00:21
Laurence (#123) – I think with the introduction of VAR a large screen is going to become vital at all grounds.

I think it's inevitable that VAR will become more like the Rugby version and fans inside the stadium watching the replays will become part of the experience.

Nicholas Ryan
130 Posted 03/04/2018 at 15:07:28
I was wondering how long it would take for my LFC-supporting stepson, to say: 'It'll be the best ground in the Championship...'?

Answer: about 8 seconds!!

Stephen Davies
132 Posted 03/04/2018 at 15:24:19
Tony (#119),

Your right. Although I like what I see and hear so far..whats really not been addressed here is how 50000+ fans get to and from there in the pissing down and windy winter days and nights. It's a good old walk from the town centre and the nearest rail station.

For this to be a total success, a real plan involving travel infrastructure needs to be included in any long term plan. I'm sure I've read in the past that there could be an opportunity to open an old rail line nearer to the location.

However this should not be an after thought and serious transport links should be incorporated into the overall plan. Otherwise you have 50000+ fans all walking along the the Dock Road as that's the only way out, east or west.

There's no chance of buses driving along there freely, before or after the game. A light railway would be ideal... but who would pay for that?

Brent Stephens
133 Posted 03/04/2018 at 15:31:46
Stephen (#133),

I'm sure the transport side is being thought through. Rail links, hovercraft etc.

"Otherwise ,you have 50000+ fans all walking along the the Dock Road as that's the only way out, east or west".

Going west from BMD gets you a tad wet?!

Steve Ferns
134 Posted 03/04/2018 at 15:34:58
Tony (#119) and Stephen (#133), why are you completely ignoring Liverpool Waters (I mean it's only a £4bn project that will see Liverpool have the biggest tower (Shanghai Tower) outside of London)? This is a project that will span from the Princes Dock to Bramley-Moore Dock and will see lots of residential, retail, and recreational areas built, of the type that will surpass anything on offer in the city at the moment.

I suggest you go read up on Liverpool Waters, and perhaps take a trip down to Princes Dock to see the preparatory work that is underway as they start to begin this project. Some people don't half make up a load of crap on here. Let's not let reality get in the way of an excuse to have a rant against the owner.

Brent Stephens
135 Posted 03/04/2018 at 15:35:58
Still nobody has asked about the impact of the sewage works next door? Or have I missed it?

Dave (#127) "I am going to apply now to be one of the first to have my ashes buried behind one of the goals".

I'm also going to ask for my remains to be scattered there on my death. Not cremated just scattered.

Brian Harrison
136 Posted 03/04/2018 at 15:43:44
I too will be very interested to see what plans are in place for 50,000 fans to get in and out of the stadium without it taking hours. I know going to the Echo Arena and parking in the car park next to the Arena it took 45 -50 minutes to get out of the car park after a concert. I know it was destroyed by fire, but in people attending was nothing like trying to get 50,000 in and out.

Obviously with it being fairly close to town there are not many places to have a park and ride from. Maybe they could run ferries to a park and ride at Otterspool prom. They could also set up a park and ferry ride from the Wirral.

Mind, knowing football clubs, fans parking comes way down the pecking order.

Steve Carse
137 Posted 03/04/2018 at 15:47:07
Much is heard from Meis and others within the Club about the end product being one to generate atmosphere and to intimidate. Does it succeed in what's been produced so far?

Yes, a fair degree of the seating capacity would be close to the pitch though it would not seemingly be particularly steep at the bottom tiers.

As for a 'Blue Wall' possibly accommodating just 12,000 – don't we currently have nigh on this number in the Street End, albeit in two tiers?

The increase in the number of spaces for the disabled is laudable though would seem to outstrip demand judging by the sparsity of supporters in the new Gwladys Street area. And having the areas skirting 3 sides of the pitch, doesn't this militate against the 'intimidation' objective, given that the effect is to reduce the concentration of perimeter numbers compared to other seating? In the modern era disabled areas should be custom built and provide for much better viewing than currently, not just positioned at ground level to facilitate easy access.

As for the 'vomitories', with intimidation and atmosphere again in mind, why on earth would you plan to carve out areas behind the goals?

Just some early thoughts, and views based solely on what I'm reading and seeing on these pages. But I have to say I'm a bit disappointed – and would be immensely let down with a capacity of just 50,000. Does anybody know, would this increase compared to current capacity be the smallest proportional new stadium increase (25%) of any top Division Club in the Premier League era?

Steve Brown
138 Posted 03/04/2018 at 15:54:14
Tony (#119), as a fellow local you are being seriously misleading. You talk about Bramley-Moore Dock as though you have to head toward the Sahara and turn left. It is a 5-10 minute drive from the Albert Dock or 2 km walking.

Kings Dock and Albert Dock were also derelict previously and the regeneration proposal will transform North Liverpool. It has already started if you've ever visited the fantastic Titanic Hotel or the new apartment buildings that are sprouting up. As Steve says, this is part of a multi-billion project that will be supported by serious investment in the transport links needed. It will be much easier to route fans directly to Bramley-Moore by road and rail than through the city centre.

After years of rightfully slagging off the complacency and zero ambition of the club, get behind the plans as they are world class. If only we had a football team that wouldn't embarrass the new stadium.

James Hughes
139 Posted 03/04/2018 at 16:04:10
Brent (#136), the last paragraph is quality, thank you. It just prompted visions of the staff throwing assorted parts over the 18-yard box.
James Ebden
140 Posted 03/04/2018 at 16:07:15
John Peirce (#124)

You honestly believe we will attract 5k+ in casual tourist visitors to games?!! Ha ha ha ha...

Any tourist visiting Liverpool area that isn't affiliated with a club will go to a game at Anfield. Sad, but true. They have a far bigger worldwide reach, plus they play exciting football. Tourists from China etc will know all the Liverpool players. I bet they couldn't name 3 from our squad.

It's all well and good building in growth room, but what if the growth doesn't happen? The repayments don't stop if there's no growth!!

Dave Abrahams
141 Posted 03/04/2018 at 16:12:17
Brent (136), scattered? You'll be all over the place, my soul will be watching all the action from behind the goal!!!
Stephen Davies
142 Posted 03/04/2018 at 16:13:36
Steve (#135).

I will make a point of doing that. I'm aware of what they intend to build there..the housing, retail and recreational areas.. and that this was going to be 20 yr or so plan..

What I was not aware of was the plan for any mass transit facility to transport large numbers to this area... and over what time frame? ( I'm assuming the stadium will probably the first large build in the area.

I shall take your advice and go take a gander... interesting to see those transport plans.


Steve Brown
143 Posted 03/04/2018 at 16:15:54
So, James, your proposal is that we build a stadium where we will be for the next 100 years to house our current attendance as a 9th place club?

Ha, ha, ha, ha. Your lack of ambition for your own club is pathetic.

John Pierce
144 Posted 03/04/2018 at 16:41:15
James (#141). I might be off the the mark but I genuinely feel Everton market to their own too much.

I think that lacks ambition, Liverpool as a City is very popular for many reasons and actually you do need to court non-Evertonian, non-footballing people to the game. That is modern life.

Liverpool only play every other week, there is a market there to be seized! Your match going Evertonian cannot multiply and take up more than one seat.

It's important to show ambition and people will come for the new experience. If you limit yourself it's a problem, if you try and expand later on it's even more expensive with additional inconvenience.

Everton can make their gate receipts with a good ticketing strategy and ensure those extra seats are priced correctly to bring Evertonians who couldn't afford it and new people who want to experience something new.

I'll reiterate, the current board room has little or no expertise in this kind of vision and executing a plan to grow the club. So despite my desire to see us go big, sadly I think the result will be a stadium around 50,000.

Ray Roche
145 Posted 03/04/2018 at 16:42:26
James (#141).

"Any tourist visiting Liverpool area that isn't affiliated with a club will go to a game at Anfield" and find that they're playing at Brighton.

But, hang on, if you really want to see a game there's another top flight club right next to the cruise liner, there in that big fuckin' stadium there. And they're playing Chelsea. Would you like to go?

James, if this stadium looks the part and Everton can get a professional PR company in instead of Boys Pen Bill's mincing mates from Pantoland, then plenty of tourists will visit Bramley-Moore.

Tony Everan
146 Posted 03/04/2018 at 17:02:25
We can attract tourist match goers with the new stadium.

If the end product is world class along with its surroundings it will be a massive draw. Having a glass of beer outside a bar overlooking the estuary on a nice day. The stadium a hundred meters away. Easy public transport to and from town .

Maybe, just maybe, I’m biased but If I was a tourist I know where I’d rather go.

Rob Halligan
147 Posted 03/04/2018 at 17:02:59
Good point Ray. Also don't forget, it all depends on what day these tourists arrive in the city. If they were to arrive the day before an Everton home game, then what do they do? Attend a game in our shiny new stadium the next day, or wait around for another week so they can go to Big Stand FC?

Plenty of cruise liners arrive in Liverpool these days. It's all about timing which team is at home when they arrive.

Tony Everan
148 Posted 03/04/2018 at 17:06:52
Yes Rob, And the first thing those cruise passengers will see is our iconic stadium.

Should be an option on every cruise liner that docks near to match days. If marketed professionally, those punters are there for the taking.

Brian Wilkinson
149 Posted 03/04/2018 at 17:12:56
Brent @136, we have spent a good few years next to the stench across the park, I am sure we will get used to the smell.
Steve Ferns
150 Posted 03/04/2018 at 17:13:09
67 cruise liners last year. And once we build the new terminal we expect a lot more. Liverpool Waters say they had 250,000 visitors last year. We can expect a lot more by the time the stadium is built.

On top of the visitors, there's also three big universities in the city. I know when I went to uni, I went and watched local sides, but then again it was only a tenner.

As for the work starting, take a drive past Costco and you'll see all the work started already on the next phase of Liverpool Waters. We're in the third phase, the one after this.

Brent Stephens
151 Posted 03/04/2018 at 17:16:48
Brian (#150) – nice one. But I really am curious. Not doom-mongering, just curious. I want to be reassured about what's next door to Bramley-Moore Dock.
Mark Smith
152 Posted 03/04/2018 at 17:32:45
Tony Marsh,

I personally will pay for your flight to Switzerland and a visit to the Dignitas clinic. How depressed can you be?

This stadium will be a game-changer so just say something positive for a change.

Having said this... don't as your posts make my whole family laugh out loud!

Stephen Davies
153 Posted 03/04/2018 at 17:54:51
Brent #152
Nelson Dock. A Marina and floating residential and retail units .

http://www.liverpoolwaters.co.uk/the-project/bramley-moore-dock/#statistics

Look at the Liverpool Waters plans. As far as I can see, transport links involves road restructure and more buses.

John Raftery
154 Posted 03/04/2018 at 17:59:43
The stadium better had be a game changer because there is nothing else on the horizon.

I'm just back from this afternoon's workshop with Dan Meis. From his presentation it was clear the stadium layout will be north - south. Although that creates a tight fit at the north end, the site is just about big enough to accommodate it.

There were predictably plenty of questions and comments about capacity. Meis repeated his point about the final 10,000 seats being the dearest to build while generating the least amount of revenue and reiterated his view that it will be better for the club to have a stadium sold out at every fixture than one with a larger capacity which the club struggles to fill. He clearly understood, however, that the majority of fans would like a stadium nearer to 60,000 than 50,000.

In answer to a question he said they had looked at a retractable roof but the cost is prohibitive: it would add £200m. The rake of the stands would afford great sight lines, much better than most new stadia. There were plenty of great ideas floating around about making the concourses inside and outside the stadium atmospheric.

Overall I came away feeling more confident this thing will happen and that it will be great.

Robin Cannon
155 Posted 03/04/2018 at 18:12:40
Are Juventus an unambitious club? Juventus Stadium has a capacity of 41,570.

This obsession with "it must be 60,000", or "it must be bigger than Chelsea's"...when the priority should be what is best for us. In some ways, the obsession with size demonstrates that we still can't measure ourselves except by others.

I'd far prefer to have a fierce, intimidating, modern and superb quality 50,000 stadium than worrying about an extra 10,000 seats that might or might be filled (and there's nothing in our history to suggest that we'd consistently fill 60,000).

Brent Stephens
156 Posted 03/04/2018 at 18:13:17
Stephen (#154) – North of Bramley-Moore Dock, not south of it, is the United Utilities site:

Link

David Barks
157 Posted 03/04/2018 at 18:17:04
Robin,

Juventus having a small stadium is constantly discussed in the press in Italy as being a massive problem, and part of a larger issue with the other Italian clubs not being competitive when it comes to stadium capacity. Bad example to use. And there have been discussions with their stadium architect to see how they can expand the capacity by up to 20,000 in order to compete financially.

Tony Marsh
158 Posted 03/04/2018 at 18:19:12
Mark (#163),

I am so happy I amuse you. It's obvious you have never been near the proposed stadium site. I would love to be moving out of Goodison Park full of joy and positivity but this is Everton FC we are talking about.

We are nearly 2 years down the line on this new stadium saga and we still don't have any real proof it will happen. There are far more cons than pros at the moment. We don't yet have planning permission to build on the site yet so how can we all jump the gun so readily??

I want this to happen as much as anyone else but years of being lied to and let down by the club has toughened me up and made me less trusting... If it happens Brilliant – but there are still too many pitfalls to overcome before I get my hopes up.

Can anyone see this job being completed within the next 4 years? With each passing month and each passing forum, it appears it won't be. I really do hope I am completely wrong.

Dermot Byrne
159 Posted 03/04/2018 at 18:19:19
The sign of insanity they say is doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for a different outcome. In an effort to prove that wrong, let's try again:

Dermot Byrne (#86),

Tony Marsh... do some research on the future... Peel etc in North Liverpool. Then try some frigging balance for once, you miserable sod!

Stephen Davies
160 Posted 03/04/2018 at 18:28:37
Apologies Brent..my bad. I'm not sure if anyone would know that at present as the Liverpool Waters development ends at BMD
Geoffrey Williams
161 Posted 03/04/2018 at 18:34:04
Still think a stadium with a retractable roof would help generate millions of pounds through concerts, boxing matches etc, and would be more of an iconic 21st Century stadium.
Robin Cannon
162 Posted 03/04/2018 at 18:34:09
Stadiums being built with scope for expansion is one thing, it provides options without making a commitment to crowds that can't necessarily be sustained.

Juventus moved to a smaller stadium because they couldn't fill an excessively large one. And I don't believe it's purely coincidence that they have coincided massive success with a full stadium and the atmosphere of such a stadium, versus a half full Stadio Delle Alpi.

Juventus have now won the title six times in a row. They're 33 times Italian champions. They're one of the biggest teams in the world. They are based in a city that has roughly double the population of Liverpool. And they are just now, based on developing need, investigating expanding their capacity to 60k.

...and we're talking about how it would be in some way unambitious for us to not build to 60k immediately?

Not that I suggest a 40k capacity. But a modern 50k is a big stadium, absolutely acceptable for our needs as a club, and can be built with scope for expansion.

More to the point, base the decision on genuine need. On the likelihood of a consistent 90% filled capacity. On the balance between cost and revenue and accessibility to fans. Not on "we need 60k because Liverpool have 58k".

Brent Stephens
163 Posted 03/04/2018 at 18:34:35
No probs, Stephen. Interestingly Bing Maps on their road view show the dock to the north of BMD, Wellington Dock, as still an open dock but their aerial view shows the more recent extension to the United Utilities sewage works built on the Wellington Dock. If I read my maps right!

I'm not kicking up a stink about this. I just hope the United Utilities site won't either!

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

164 Posted 03/04/2018 at 18:44:42
Dave @ 127.

"I am going to apply now to be one of the first to have my ashes buried behind one of the goals."

Unless Sam Allardyce's football gets you first!

I worry you may spontaneously combust in rage if you have to endure much more at his hands.

Still, looking on the bright side, if the worst does happen your ashes will be immediately scattered in your preferred seat at Goodison Park!

Or...are you more likely to experience death by ennui and utter boredom by what you are watching these days, Dave?

How does that ditty go again?

"Always look on the bright side of life!" Whistle-whistle...

Iain Johnston
165 Posted 03/04/2018 at 18:48:18
Brent, can't we just drop an Aldi triple pack of blue toilet blocks in the treatment plant?

Seriously though, the housing development which went up in Fazakerley in the mid '90's hasn't had any problems with the United Utilities site over the road and the waste incinerator next door.

John Pierce
166 Posted 03/04/2018 at 18:50:56
Robin, I’d suggest you try elsewhere with Juve.

The old Stadium was huge, built for athletics and was miles outside Turin, it had massive transport issues.

One of the great white elephants of club football.

Everton are doing none of the above, it is massively incumbent upon the club to build an experience which serves both the regular match-goer and the extra revenue out there attracting new and extra customers.

The whole concept has to be bold, forward thinking, brave and hi-tech. Otherwise truly what is the point of leaving the old lady?

Robin Cannon
167 Posted 03/04/2018 at 18:57:22
John - I agree. All of the things you mention are musts.

An experience to serve the regular match goer and to attract new and extra customers. Bold, forward-thinking, brave and hi-tech approach.

And 50k, 55k or 60k is only one, and not the most important, of all those things. And in my gut, I think an over-ambitious 60-65k would be a worse experience, and serve all those needs worse, than a high quality and full capacity 50-55k.

Brent Stephens
168 Posted 03/04/2018 at 18:59:34
Iain, that's the sort of reassurance I'm looking for. Thanks. Is the Fazakerley site for sewage treatment?
Andy Crooks
169 Posted 03/04/2018 at 19:43:07
Lyndon (#102). I see your point but continue to disagree. In the grim days in the 1970s we looked at the US family orientated football games and envied them. The family model of folk sitting down and appreciating football.

Why must anyone stand? Would you stand at the theatre? All is fine until alcohol and dissent arrive. People behave in a more civilised and less confrontational way when seated. In fact, I believe that those standing in seated areas should be removed and banned. I cannot bear it when, the moment we cross the halfway line, everyone stands.

I guess Allardyce has cut down this activity, though.

I will admit to being a little biased in my argument. I was injured in a crush many years ago when, quite simply, too many people who were not fit to be allowed out on their own had too much drink. I would not wish that experience on my grandchildren.

What are the advantages of standing other than squeezing more people in and pandering to a macho culture?

David McMulllen
170 Posted 03/04/2018 at 19:55:32
Any (safe) standing is governed by legislation; it's all hypothetical at the moment. But the ratio is 1:1 meaning no increase in capacity just by switching. Think Meis said it's actually more expensive too. But anyway, I'd love safe standing.

Meis is saying on the capacity he isn't bothered about other sizes at all but our feedback is pushing it nearer 60k than 50k. I'd still like 61,878.

James Marshall
171 Posted 03/04/2018 at 19:57:53
I'm watching Juve v Madrid right now and the atmosphere is electric with their mere 40,000 supporters. Atmosphere is as much about fan culture as it is numbers.

Goodison is so quiet these days, unless we the supporters make the atmosphere, you could have 100,000 and it still be rubbish.

Of course that's in part due to our shitty team, but looking ahead it's about us making a lot of noise regardless of how many people fit in the ground.

John Cartwright
172 Posted 03/04/2018 at 19:58:14
Sam (#129),

What makes you sure a 55k will have an electric atmosphere that somehow 65k will be a graveyard? Show some ambition – we are Everton... world's greatest club, and I for one want to aim for the top.

Phil Walling
173 Posted 03/04/2018 at 20:02:11
Difficult to fight when you are sitting down and clamouring over seats to get at 'the enemy' cannot be the easiest art to master! But the piss-heads probably think their 'uman rights are being subjugated, so what can you do?
John Pierce
174 Posted 03/04/2018 at 20:02:25
Standing is the new sitting. Standing has one thing going for it; energy. The verve and connection you get from standing far exceeds that of the sedentary life.

Even in my work life standing in meetings, I have a standing desk & it gives more energy and would generate a better atmosphere. Question how to make it safe & viable in 21st century.

Keith Harrison
175 Posted 03/04/2018 at 20:13:58
I wonder if the workshops have anything to do with the current sales of season tickets, at which Everton have been contacting me piecemeal to 'renew your season ticket before it goes on general sale'. Letter last week, 2 emails today – my boss has had a text. I expect no less than Bobby Elstone travelling all the way up here and trying to persuade me tomorrow.

My email response, which I sent by clicking on the link – I have not mis-spelt anything in the address – was as follows earlier tonight:-

service.desk@evertonfc.com

Dear Sirs,

Re: Season Ticket renewal – Membership number XXXXXXX (my real one was supplied)

Please note that while Sam Allardyce purports to be manager of my football club, Hell would freeze over before I renew my season ticket, and travel a round trip of 300+ miles every other week to watch turgidity in the extreme led by that self-aggrandising fraudster.

I assume by the ever increasing methods of contacting those season ticket holders that I personally know that sales are not progressing like previous seasons. And do not think that replacing him with David Moyes, as apparently Keith Harris wants to do, will placate anyone at all.

Remove Messrs Walsh, Allardyce, Lee and Shakespeare with the utmost alacrity, put Unsy in temporary charge again – at least for this weekend where you can guarantee fire and brimstone against our self-exalted neighbours – and a win this weekend, coupled with the disappearance of Allardyce et al would guarantee season tickets being sold out again.

I don't expect any valid reply to this, but if a human being does read it, it is not too late to act. Please also pass on best wishes to Bill Kenwright if he is as ill as I am led to believe.

Regards,

Ex-season ticket holder Park End 2

Keith Harrison
North West Cumbria.

The reply I got from mailmaster – almost immediately, to be fair was :-

Your message to service.desk@evertonfc.com couldn't be delivered.

service.desk wasn't found at evertonfc.com.

So even the Peoples Club are false addressing me. Sums up the whole clusterfuck.

Lawrence Green
176 Posted 03/04/2018 at 20:25:46
Undoubtedly the energy and abiltiy of the team helps to pump up the enthusiasm of the fans regardless of whether there are 10k or 100k in attendance. I feel that attending the match for many fans in recent years has become more akin to going to the cinema or theatre rather than the experience it used to be not too long ago.

Saturday with it's stupid O'Clock kick off time and our current team's lack of spirit will see Goodison a lot quieter than it should be and as the Echo reliably and almost gleefully informs us, it's the biggest game of our season, whilst it's not even our opponents biggest game of the week. Sad times that have to be changed by somebody – how long must we wait?

Bill Watson
177 Posted 03/04/2018 at 20:26:42
Tony Marsh.

The Merseyrail line from Southport to Hunts Cross via Sandhills, Moorfields and Central runs parallel to the river and goes past Bramley-Moore Dock. This line links South Liverpool with the North end via the city centre.

Merseytravel are considering a station in the Bramley-Moore, Titanic Hotel area but even if that doesn't happen Sandhills is only just over half-a-mile away.

I live in Huyton, I have a car but go to Goodison by train to town and then the 919 football bus. Bramley-Moore Dock will be even easier to get to.

Dave Abrahams
178 Posted 03/04/2018 at 20:30:36
Jay (165), no, I will not explode with rage, too old for that I think, although it is very hard watching the Blues at present. I fully expect the manager to be replaced and then we will see what happens next season.

I think football moves in cycles and I am quietly confident (without any real evidence) that we will start improving from now on and happier times are not far away for us Blues. A lot of hope attached to that, mainly for the young fans, not only in my own family, but for young Evertonians wherever they are.

Little apples will grow again, just hope I see some of it, but it will happen, I'm very confident of that. It was a long time from 1970 to 1984 but the good times came back, and how sweeter they were after the famine we all had to endure.

Tom Hughes
179 Posted 03/04/2018 at 20:32:28
John (#167),

Juve's new stadium was built inside the older one, Stadio delle Alpi. It is the same site.

Peter Mills
180 Posted 03/04/2018 at 20:34:59
If the Main Stand is to have its back to the river, I would prefer the ‘home’ end bank to be to the left (North), in the same orientation as Gwladys Street is to the current Main Stand.
Dave Evans
181 Posted 03/04/2018 at 20:36:39
Keith there is always Carlisle or you could put your slippers on and watch the rugby.
John Pierce
182 Posted 03/04/2018 at 20:40:05
Tom, well bugger me, I didn’t know that. Got to presume they fixed some of the transport issues, no running track has to help.

Might dig a little deeper on that. Very interesting study. I guess if its on half the site the parking must have improved, as this was one of the major bugbears.

Keith Monaghan
183 Posted 03/04/2018 at 20:40:08
I was at this afternoon's 2pm presentation and came away with an increased belief and confidence that our new owner has made a great choice in Dan Meis and will deliver us a stadium of which Evertonians and the city will be proud.

In many ways, I would like a 60k+ capacity stadium, but am happy to leave the outcome to the judgement of Meis and Co. There is a strong argument in favour of a full stadium, not least in terms of the impact of banks of empty seats on players.

Alan McGuffog
184 Posted 03/04/2018 at 20:45:36
Peter, I am sure there will be someone on here who will show us how we can re direct the river get it flowing East-West. Sort of...
Keith Harrison
185 Posted 03/04/2018 at 20:52:47
Dave (#182), you're absolutely right, but that wasn't my point. Every year, we seem to be treated as idiots with ''the money's ring-fenced', 'it'll be like a new signing' etc etc, which always surface around renewal time.

And while Allardyce is here, I won't renew – I'll go watch my lad play Rugby. I do hope we get a new stadium, with a team to make us all proud. Not holding my breath though.

Dermot Byrne
186 Posted 03/04/2018 at 20:59:36
Keith... big thanks to you and the others for reporting back to rest of us.
Peter Lee
187 Posted 03/04/2018 at 21:26:00
Keith, if this is a con to get people to sign on for next season then it is elaborate, expensive and, to listen to people on here, beyond the imagination of our club's leaders. Sometimes things are what they seem.
Dick Fearon
188 Posted 03/04/2018 at 21:31:51
What with age and its accompanying ills, I will be fortunate indeed to sit in our great new stadium. At least I can dream about it with the same kind of optimism that one day we will thrash or even just scrape a win over that other lot.
Keith Harrison
189 Posted 03/04/2018 at 21:36:37
It's the cynic in me, Peter. I hope beyond hope it is true.
Geoff Lambert
190 Posted 03/04/2018 at 21:43:30
If it took them 12 months to come up with that, it's going to take 20 years to build the bloody thing!
Peter Lee
191 Posted 03/04/2018 at 21:59:42
From this evening's meeting there are conclusions to be drawn.

The site is restricted for a North - South stadium. The ideal but not essential. Goodison isn't quite and Anfield less so. The high, steep stands would limit the light problem with a E/W stadium.

If we got Bramley-Moore Dock for £25m, how much would it have cost to get a lease on the adjacent, southern dock? Maybe a lot since it would cut into Peel's potential developments, maybe not.

Either way we are looking at a North - South stadium around 55,000 capacity.

That stadium will look to reference Goodison in its internal structure, rather than externally. I think that the idea of 1,878 seats transposed to the home wall is cute, but I'd sooner sit on the seats of the Allianz I visited last week. My arse isn't getting thinner.

The job of architects is to make virtue of necessity. All four sides of the ground have to be different. They will be.

On other matters, we still don't know about vehicle traffic management. A late Saturday KO coinciding with an Arena concert could prove a challenge to anyone going south.

Trains on the Northern line are 12 an hour in each direction. Should be enough, especially if they can be six car. It appears to me that the busiest are on the Southport line so that might be a priority. Another station south of Sandhills might help to ease congestion.

How about a recreation of a small part of the Overhead? James St to Sandhills via Bramley Moore Dock, light rail? Would take Wirral fans off the main rail. Munich CC spent £200m on rail station improvements when the Allianz was built.

Neil Madden
192 Posted 03/04/2018 at 22:20:43
Tony Marsh (#119). Rather ironic that you mention the King's Dock and Albert Dock. Before both were redeveloped, the description you give of Bramley-Moore would have been perfect to sum up both those areas which are now very much part of the city centre.

I remember when the Albert Dock was first done up. Although I was in my early 20s I didn't know where it was. Ditto until very recently for lots of people re. Bramley Moore Dock. I do understand that the area is a bit out on a limb at the moment, but it won't be in 10 or so years.

Regarding public transport Bill Watson (#178), yes the transport problems can be overcome but we need to recognise that not everybody will be able to get on a train. Space for car parking should not be a problem given the amount of dereliction.

The big issue for me are buses. Whereas County Road is a main thoroughfare in and out of the city and is served by both Arriva and Stagecoach, there is currently not one bus route that goes along the Dock Road. Until the area is repopulated to necessitate a 7-day-per-week demand, there will need to be special buses from lots of points including several places in the city centre perhaps. I would look at using the Rotunda as a pick up point for a free bus for those who can catch an existing bus along Stanley Road, Walton Road and Great Homer Street.

Neil Madden
193 Posted 03/04/2018 at 22:24:56
Sorry one other point, is that BM is a 30 minutes walk from the city centre, not 20 as pitched by the club. I don't think too may will fancy the walk on a wet Saturday in Feburary. The bus provision HAS to be done correctly.
Ray Roche
194 Posted 03/04/2018 at 22:27:17
Neil, a Ferry Terminal at the Dock would be useful .and bring in revenue for the Ferry operators.
Neil Madden
195 Posted 03/04/2018 at 22:30:42
Ray Roche (#195). Yes it would be a fantastic way to arrive. That said the capacity and the turn around time to get back over the river means that only a few thousand per hour could use it, or so I am reliably informed by people who seemed to know what they are talking about.

I think the trick with the ferries could be a pre-match cruise picking up both sides of the river. Even if a ferry terminal could not be built, they could lay on a couple of double-decker buses from the Pier Head.

Neil Madden
196 Posted 03/04/2018 at 22:37:32
Final point re transport is that we are lucky in having so many black cabs. They'll do a good business running from town to the Bramley-Moore Dock and back for a good few hours before and after a match.
Daniel A Johnson
197 Posted 03/04/2018 at 22:48:19
Dan Meis wants to design/build the best Premier League stadium in England for Everton FC.

Well he will have a job to top this being built right now.

http://new-stadium.tottenhamhotspur.com/

The new Spurs stadium looks genuinely world class.

Laurie Hartley
198 Posted 03/04/2018 at 22:53:13
Peter (#92) – has anyone asked the following questions:

1. How big is the pitch?

2. What is planned for the area between the stadium and the Dock Road?

Tom Bowers
199 Posted 03/04/2018 at 23:04:29
I am sure that on match days special match buses will be available for getting to the stadium even if it isn't a regular route right now. It's a source of revenue the bus companies won't pass up.
Laurie Hartley
200 Posted 04/04/2018 at 01:09:14
Evertonians and the people of Liverpool in general should take great heart from the proposed new stadium and Liverpool Waters development which go hand in hand.

Over the past 20 or so years I have watched the Melbourne Docklands transformed from this:

Arial History Melbourne Docklands - Before

to this:

Arial History Melbourne Docklands - After

If the Melbourne example is anything to go by, the people of Liverpool will benefit greatly from the new jobs and business opportunities created.

For these reasons, I believe we should trust the judgement of both Farhad Moshiri and Dan Meis to get this right and get behind them both 100%.

Denny Kerr
201 Posted 04/04/2018 at 05:14:04
Geoff (#191), my thoughts exactly! It looks like a CAD drawing that could be put together in a week.

I don't want to be negative in regards to our new stadium, but it's just so difficult not to be.

I've had the privilege to project manage multiple million dollar construction projects over the last few years and, in every case, the financing is in place before the project gets off the ground. Where does that leave us, as regards the true timeframe?

On a lighter note, maybe it's a good thing we haven't started construction just yet. With the performances on the field this season, we fans might have requested installing the seats facing away from the playing field!

Andrew Heffernan
203 Posted 04/04/2018 at 09:26:23
Good post, Laurie – as I've said before; this is nothing to do with the stadium, that's merely the 'enabler', to the total regeneration of this area, something Peel have been struggling to progress as they just hold land banks, never invest themselves.

I'm in Dubai and its still growing; the north docks would be one small development here – I'm also receiving calls and emails to 'register' for potential commercial/residential property in the North Dock area in anticipation of development.

I would love to see some form of DLR system put into to loop the north docks to south docks with a spit to James street to connect to Merseyrail, a la Dubai Metro which is a fantastic system – automated, no drivers/conductors, and reliable! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_Metro

Like you, Laurie, I'm 100% behind this.

Lee Whitehead
204 Posted 04/04/2018 at 09:27:22
Well said, Laurie!!!

Let's hope it all goes to plan and we can regain our place at the top table.

COYB

Craig Walker
205 Posted 03/04/2018 at 09:29:33
This is the one remaining hope for us as a football club. Take away any optimism over a new stadium at Bramley Moore and we have nothing left but a proud history.
David S Shaw
206 Posted 04/04/2018 at 09:45:42
I think the stadium is the best it can be considering the tight constraints of the site size. There are compromises on the design, the small North Stand being the main one.
Peter Lee
207 Posted 04/04/2018 at 10:22:26
Laurie, the graphics show the pitch same size as Goodison. This is currently 110 x 74 yds, 100.5 x 68 m. That's about the going rate for the Premier League. Interesting, to me anyway, that the pitch at the Allianz was quoted in the tour as being 63.5 m, noticeably narrower. Might help with pressing, but City's is wider than most.

The space between the stadium and the dock road wall is indicated as a fan zone. This is much bigger than that which we have at the moment and would appear to be prime space for other money-making developments.

James Lauwervine
208 Posted 04/04/2018 at 11:11:23
Tony (#119), it's 2.6 miles from Lime Street to Goodison, it's 2.4 miles to Bramley-Moore Dock and it's 1.8 miles to King's Dock. That does not appear to me to be significant enough to warrant your 'a million miles from where a lot of you think it is' comment.

Yes, the area needs regeneration and major investment – isn't that the point? Of course they could knock down St George's Hall and build it there – would that be better?

David McMulllen
209 Posted 04/04/2018 at 11:33:24
This transport debate is important. I don't think car parking is part of the plans for instance match days en masse at Stanley Park and around in cars. Coaches can park on the dock road that'll probably be closed off on match days.

But public transport is an issue. Yep, Sandhills isn't too far and there's the very good potential of a station at Vauxhall that Joe Anderson has spoken about, which will be akin to walking from County Road to Goodison Road. But no buses.

It is okay walking to/from town – many people walk to Goodison now. The emergence of Liverpool Waters etc will in time develop and link this to town. But I still think there should be land purchased, maybe by the council in partnership with the club, to build a car park off the Dock Road.

Brian Harrison
210 Posted 04/04/2018 at 12:18:40
David

I too posted over my concerns about getting 50,000 in and out of Bramley-Moore Dock. I go by car to the game and park in Alsop school on Queens drive costs £7. It is then about a 10-15 minute walk to Goodison.

But if no car park facilities are available then I cant see how we get 50,000 on public transport, given there is no space for a park-and-ride area within the City.

Laurie Hartley
211 Posted 04/04/2018 at 12:26:11
Peter @ 208 – thanks for the feedback on the proposed pitch size.

From what I can figure out, the width of the site is the major constraining factor on the stadium configuration.

As the pitch will run North to South, it is no surprise that they have kept the length of the pitch the same as Goodison. It also seems to be the reason that the North end stand is the smallest.

Regarding the fan zone and the car parking issue, I still haven't seen any answer as to whether or not the dock is going to be completely filled in. If the dock is 9 metres deep that's about 420,000 cubic metres – that is a lot of ground fill!

In previous posts I have suggested they might drain the dock, tank the walls and convert it to an underground car park. Has anyone who has been to the meetings asked this question?

Dave Evans
212 Posted 04/04/2018 at 12:33:31
Keith (#186),

You brought family into your post, as anyone could for dewy impact. Given the variation in Everton kick-off times, I doubt there is cause and effect in attendance of games and the family event mentioned.

Here's something as wrought as your initial post @176:- At a difficult time for all supporters, I am fed up to the back teeth of some using most threads, including this one which concerns a stadium that offers at least hope of a brighter future, as an opportunity for relentless "I'm withdrawing my support" posturing.

The need for some people to state in swaggering and/or tearful public posts why they are in a variety of ways 'not supporting Everton anymore' escapes me.

Every gasping and confused quanta of my being screams – in the name of fuck, why don't you just go?

Keith Harrison
213 Posted 04/04/2018 at 13:00:43
Dave, did I used to bully you at school? You brought up the Rugby etc mate.

Irrespective, apart from the stadium, which as stated, I really hope happens, we – as in all of us – pay good money to be entertained. If I go to see a tribute band at a concert, I expect them not to be as good as the original (possible exception Aussie Pink Floyd). I do, however, expect them to be competent, and trying their hardest, i.e. putting the effort in.

Man City were tremendous on Saturday, but did we get into their faces? Were there any bookings? Did all our boys break sweat, or should they have been sitting with me admiring a masterful team instead of doing that on the pitch?

Under the present manager, this for me, isn't happening. And if I choose to put that on every thread on here, that's my choice – or the mods. If a brighter future to you is a world class stadium with a shite team and fraudulent manager, well, that's your choice.

I will always support Everton, but until something changes I won't be there to see them every week. Now, where's the Kleenex?

Steve Ferns
214 Posted 04/04/2018 at 13:29:20
There's a thin line between love and hate, or so the cliché goes. I do think it's true with Everton, but it seems more like I love them, and they hate me!

Anyway, can we back away from getting personal guys? We're all blues, we all want the blues to be the best, and we're all gutted about how things are going.

Steve Ferns
215 Posted 04/04/2018 at 13:39:18
There's a massive multi-story car park on Princes Dock (part of the Liverpool Waters project). It has space for 760 cars. Google maps says it is a 20-minute walk and 1 mile from the Bramley-Moore pub. It's only 250 yards further than Alsop School (as mentioned above) from Goodison. I'm sure many of the places down the dock road will find ways to accommodate cars of a match day to earn a few quid.

Transport links to the new stadium are a red herring guys. Don't worry about it. As things stand the stations aren't really any further than Goodison and plans are afoot for the Liverpool Waters project, including proposed new stations (on the Northern Line), metro service (appears very unlikely to me though).

I like the underground parking idea though. Is it Ajax that have parking under their stadium?

Peter Mills
216 Posted 04/04/2018 at 13:55:59
Thanks for the feedback on this; I understand more now about the site constraints, rationale for a smaller stand at the North end etc.
Jamie Evans
217 Posted 04/04/2018 at 13:58:18
Andy 170.

Standing up when we cross the halfway line.

Those were the days.

Paul Birmingham
218 Posted 04/04/2018 at 14:41:00
Hopefully, hopefully this a genuine ray of hope and promise for the future.

The previous information disclosed on TW and media about the North Docks regeneration plans have mentioned about a radical restructure including road, rail and possible new ferry links. This is positive not concrete hope but the design issue looks good.

A long way to go, and a ray of hope in the worst season in decades.

Philip Jeffries
219 Posted 04/04/2018 at 14:59:47
The more I look at the plans, the more impressed I am.

Not sure on the huge TV that Meis is so keen on but, apart from that, it looks like a good start from people who seem to know what they are doing. I'm looking forward to seeing what the stadium will look like from the water and a scale model that others have also mentioned in previous comments.

Everton have a habit of letting people down, but I'll allow myself to get a bit excited about this one! I know, I know...

Stephen Davies
220 Posted 04/04/2018 at 15:26:53
Steve (#216),

I really don't mean to labour this point but I'm genuinely interested in this part of the development, i.e. the transport infrastructure for this area.

Is this car park at Princes Dock almost empty of cars on a Saturday afternoon or is it mostly full with shoppers or visitors at present? I wonder how many spaces available after say... midday, 1 o'clock?

I suspect that most fans travelling from the north side, Bootle, Crosby etc and may well use use Sandhills as it's direct (I'm also thinking could there be anywhere along that route to incorporate a park & ride?)

There was a good point made earlier about using the Rotunda as a staging point for transfers to Bramley-Moore Dock.

Ideally, a Parkway station could be built in the Vauxhall area and, I suppose, if there's a will, there's a way. If there's money to be made there's always a way! A la Gillespie Road Tube station aka Arsenal Tube Station.

The Ferry is interesting... I did read somewhere that there was a some plan to run a Ferry to the Dock from Birkenhead.

I remember seeing some footage about a football barge that travels along the canal to Old Trafford on match days... now there's a relaxing trip to the docks on a sunny day.

Like I said... if there's money in it.


Pete Clarke
221 Posted 04/04/2018 at 15:34:34
Laurie (#201),

The Docklands in Melbourne is just about the best stroll anyone can take after a game of football. Of course, it's not just football in that sport mad city but the bars alongside the river are beautiful, as are the beers and food they sell.

There was a time in the eighties when there were a few fun pubs around the Bramley-Moore end of town so, if the right people can put some decent bars and restaurants along the way to the new stadium, then it won't be just about the football but a good night out too and bring back some atmosphere to the area.

The sunshine does help in Melbourne though!

Bill Watson
222 Posted 04/04/2018 at 16:36:31
Stephen (#221),

Dan Meiss was asked about the feasibility of a ferry link and he liked the idea but said it would be difficult because of the height of the dock wall.

To me, trains seem the commonsense way to get to Bramley-Moore from both the North and South ends,The Wirral, the Ellesmere Port and Chester Merseyrail links and other points that terminate at Lime Street.

Trains to and from Southport, Ormskirk, Kirkby and Hunts Cross all pass through Sandhills and trains from The Wirral go via Mooorfields where a simple changeover gets you the one stop to Sandhills.

From Lime Street Station you can either change at the underground at Central or walk over to Central and get a direct train. They all go to Sandhills. On the return trip trains stop at both Lime Street and Central.

Even if there's no Park and Ride, parking is relatively easy at many suburban stations. Far less hassle than trying to park near a football ground.

I think we'll eventually see a new stadium station between Sandhills and Moorfields but, even without that, Sandhills is only a short distance away (0.6 of a mile).

As soon as the weather picks up, I may take a ride out there to see how long the walk actually takes!

Anthony Murphy
223 Posted 04/04/2018 at 16:57:14
Just a thought, but wouldn't it look great if that big jumbo screen was a big window instead with breathtaking views of the city - bit like the Lucas Oil Stadium.

Everyone sitting inside would be reminded on a regular basis who the city really belonged to. Looking out from the ‘blue wall' to see Moshiri's Liver Building bathed in royal blue on match days!!

Bill Watson
224 Posted 04/04/2018 at 16:58:43
http://planetolog.com/maps/map-metro/big/liverpool-metro-map.gif

This Merseyrail link demonstrates how easy Sandhills Station is to get to from most parts of Greater Merseyside and beyond.

Anthony (#224) – I think Meiss said the North Stand (home end) may have a part glass wall with views out to the city centre.

Stephen Davies
225 Posted 04/04/2018 at 17:00:48
Bill (#223). Thanks.

I agree but having one station when travelling there is all good and well as arrive times for fans are staggered. It's the return that's the problem when thousands will be arriving at Sandhills, all at the same time meaning huge queues and a long wait for boarding trains. Hence a good idea for other platforms in Vauxhall area.

Regarding the ferry, yes I did consider that and I suspect the wall couldn't be interfered with as probably listed.

This is a shame as it would be a great way to arrive. However I'm sure the idea can be revisited and some type of landing stage built nearby.

David McMulllen
226 Posted 04/04/2018 at 17:34:57
Bill, it's the south stand (blue wall end) that will have the concourse looking to town. Totally agree with Anthony (224) but he's doing the stadium the other way around, sadly.
Bill Watson
227 Posted 04/04/2018 at 17:39:46
Anthony (#224).

Sorry, getting my North and South mixed up. I meant the home end South stand.

Stephen (#226)

Yes, good point about after-match congestion. There's obviously a lot of logistical planning that needs to be done.

...and David (#227).

Nicholas Ryan
228 Posted 04/04/2018 at 17:50:33
'Build it, and they will come'!!
Ed Fitzgerald
229 Posted 04/04/2018 at 18:08:40
I attended the session at St Luke's today and was genuinely impressed by what I heard from Dan Meis. He was passionate, articulate, and as you would expect knowledgeable on all aspects concerned with the project.

What I valued more than anything else was his candour and the fact that he wouldn't be cowed by fans' demands for increasing the capacity to 60k. His responses were reasoned, logical and based upon expertise and experience.

It was refreshing for the club for once, to have someone speaking with authority, transparency and eloquence. After listening to him today it is abundantly evident that the design elements of the project are at fairly advanced stage, let's hope those who have stewardship of the finances at the club – don't let us down – again!

I'm the world's biggest sceptic, but admit to being excited about the prospect of us getting an iconic stadium on the Banks of the Royal Blue Mersey.

Philip Bunting
230 Posted 04/04/2018 at 18:10:45
Bill...19-minute walk from Bramley-Moore to Sandhills, according to Google maps. That's not bad at all to be honest.
Keith Harrison
231 Posted 04/04/2018 at 18:13:15
My mate young Rob attended today and appeared similarly blown away. Everything crossed that this goes ahead.

Jamie (#218). I laughed like mad.

Dermot Byrne
232 Posted 04/04/2018 at 19:24:17
Another day and more reports back that make me optimistic.

But do agree with Craig Walker: "This is the one remaining hope for us as a football club. Take away any optimism over a new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock and we have nothing left but a proud history."

Gareth Humphreys
233 Posted 04/04/2018 at 19:34:43
I went yesterday and was very impressed with what Dan and Frankie had to say.

I think we need to get away from the idea that bigger is better. The stadium needs to fit us and it is clear it is an atmosphere not capacity led design. Capacity does not equal atmosphere. The best atmosphere Goodison has seen in the last 25 years was against Wimbledon. And the Park End didn't exist.

Dan has made it quite clear that being tight to the pitch and selling out every week is more important than having 200 seats more than Liverpool. I for one am sold on the idea of a slightly smaller capacity but with everything else in place. I still think it will be circa 55,000.

Karl Masters
234 Posted 04/04/2018 at 19:35:37
If we don't go to 60,000 we will live to regret it.

It wouldn't be difficult to close off an upper tier or two for less attractive games in the cups, for example.

I find it odd that the Club are only thinking about the here and now – we are pulling in 40,000 in an old stadium with 5,000 obstructed view seats, playing terrible football and without a trophy in nigh on quarter of a century.

Any improvement in that and crowds will jump again plus the new stadium effect. Very short term and realistically very hard and expensive to extend later, but once a corner shopkeeper, always a corner shopkeeper. I really should not be surprised!

Stephen Davies
235 Posted 04/04/2018 at 19:59:03
Phil (#231).

Yes, that's not too bad at all. What I was trying to point out was that, if Sandhills becomes the most popular means of transport by many of the fans, then trying to get on a train when everyone arrives back there at the same time becomes problematic and there will be a lengthy wait to board.

I'm not sure what the service times are for a Saturday afternoon/evening service (or even a Tuesday night for that matter) but I would hope that extra train services would be put on to cope with the demand... but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Gareth Humphreys
236 Posted 04/04/2018 at 20:10:36
There is a new station being put in, Stephen.
Stephen Davies
237 Posted 04/04/2018 at 20:13:08
Gareth (#237).

Excellent. That's what I was hoping to hear.

Do you know where I can find further info as all I can find is improved roads?

Gavin Johnson
238 Posted 04/04/2018 at 20:15:10
While the south stand looks impressive, it's not going to be unique with Spurs having a similar size home end. If we want a stand that truly emulates Dortmund's yellow wall it needs to be standing for me. Simple as that. It also increases capacity capability.
Dermot Byrne
239 Posted 04/04/2018 at 20:28:53
Gareth (#234): very interesting. Our intuitive feeling is bigger is better and we get hung up on size of Anfield. Looks like Dan Meis may be giving us an alternative perspective.

One thing I do know is the atmosphere and location will be more important than 5,000 people here and there. In the end, does the attendance at Old Trafford make headlines and are Chelsea or Tottenham trying to beat their capacity to make a statement? No. They are building for their own needs. They have the confidence to do that.

So maybe our intuitive desire to hit 60,000 is not the most important thing and we could fall into the trap of being led by the RS even in designing OUR stadium. Now that would be sad.

We need to be more sophisticated in our thinking perhaps?

Gareth Humphreys
240 Posted 04/04/2018 at 20:40:07
Stephen (#238),

There is but I can't put my hands on it I'm afraid at the moment.

Gavin (#239),

It is bigger and steeper than Dortmund's and safe standing (rail seating) v seating has no impact on capacity, it is just more expensive to do the former.

Dermot (#240),

Dan made it crystal clear that he is not remotely interested in capacity of other clubs. His ideas are based around what is right for Everton, nothing else.

Stephen Davies
241 Posted 04/04/2018 at 20:42:36
Thanks Gareth that makes a lot more sense. I will see if I can find anything further..Thanks for your that.
Dermot Byrne
242 Posted 04/04/2018 at 20:44:25
That I find really encouraging Gareth.
Keith Harrison
243 Posted 04/04/2018 at 21:56:20
He's certainly talking the talk is Dan. Getting optimistic now.

Thanks to all the people who went to the workshops, and reported back on here, in almost unfailingly glowing tones. Let not this pivotal moment in our history slip, or that's what we just might be consigned to.

(Sneaks off to renew ST...)

Gavin Johnson
244 Posted 04/04/2018 at 22:25:21
Gareth (#241),

Thanks for the info. That's good to know. I've seen figures of 25,000 attributed to Dortmund's Great yellow wall so 12 to 15,000 didn't seem that impressive.

Rob Halligan
245 Posted 04/04/2018 at 22:26:20
Glad about that, Keith. Otherwise, what would I have done for me Cumberland sausage?
Simon Smith
246 Posted 04/04/2018 at 23:46:46
Capacity should be 60k and added to our Nil Satis motto should be.

"If you build it, they will come!!!" then just sit back and wait for the stampede!

Peter Mills
247 Posted 05/04/2018 at 07:41:16
Has there been any discussion about how 50,000 people are going to get in and out of the stadium site?

I’m not referring to transport links, but pedestrian access. At the end of a match, I assume the whole crowd will have to exit East onto the Dock Road, whereas most stadiums allow egress around the whole complex. To compound matters, I assume the wall between the site and the Dock Road is listed or has some other heritage protection so cannot be demolished. It sounds a bit tight.

Steven Jones
248 Posted 05/04/2018 at 08:22:55
1. Capacity will be 53,000 to 56,000. More than ample. (51,878?)

2. Transport to and from will be sorted with new rail station, park and ride, busses and additional ferries, walk ways.

3. This is going to be a new lifestyle experience on match days. People will be going earlier, people will be staying longer. The Fanzone, walk ways back to the city, bars and restaurants on the way will break up the 20- to 30-minute walk to Pier Head, Liver Building, Park and Walk, Lime Street etc.

4. Iconic brick cathedral vision beamed across the globe millions of times.

5. This will allow us not only to own the City, Liver Building HQ to boot, it will also be there for every child on The Wirral to see a great stadium and fall in love with our great club, every day and every night, when lit up.

6. New projects from EitC will take advantage of the redevelopment projects in the area and city.

7. For the doubters, things are stacked in our favour: Peel needing to convert their land banks; LCC gets income; LCC sees the regeneration of North Liverpool given a kick start; Moshiri plus his mates diving in to invest in the property surge of the new revitalised waterfront – too many vested interests for this not to be a slam-dunk.

I am hopeful, excited and supportive of everything our great club is doing. I mean everything. I am a supporter – not a moaning dick.

John Smith
249 Posted 05/04/2018 at 08:33:00
Ferries will transport people back and forth too. They're building new roads. Probably a train station too.

Keith Harrison
250 Posted 05/04/2018 at 11:33:38
Rob (#246). After being bombarded with emails, a letter, texts, announcements on the local radio station and a plane fly-over, Robert Elstone finally knocked on my door this morning with a chip and pin machine.

"Is your Wi-Fi working, Keith, this isn't 4G, and you haven't renewed yet. Just wanted to sign you up before I go back to Rugby League."

How could I refuse, even when he said I couldn't use my Newcastle voucher as a £5 discount off it?

Your sausage is safe.

Eric Myles
251 Posted 05/04/2018 at 12:46:30
Seems like there will be no parking issues??

Car Parking at Liverpool Waters

Keith Harrison
253 Posted 05/04/2018 at 13:30:03
The egress from the stadium may be a valid concern. I go to Twickenham at least twice a year, and although it holds 80,000 plus, there is basically only 1 way out of the stadium and back into the town. Whether getting bussed to Richmond, or to Twickenham rail station back to Waterloo, it literally takes a few hours for the scramble to die down to reasonable proportions.

This also being where thousands stay in the ground after games for the free concerts put on in the huge bars under the stands. The fans are also mixed freely, both inside and outside the stadium. This could be a potential source of trouble, especially considering last night's shenanigans, if all fans are essentially 'herded' the same way. I appreciate this happens now to an extent at Goodison, but the away supporters buses are nearby, which may not be the case with the new stadium.

Just sayin...

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

254 Posted 05/04/2018 at 13:53:35
Very good 5 minute interview with Dan Meis on the fan consult meetings this week available on the Echo:

Link

Steve Carse
255 Posted 05/04/2018 at 14:05:23
Gareth (241, final paragraph), so Meis alone knows what is best for Everton? He's an architect. So yes, he'll know how to design an impressive stadium. But what great gift does he have that means he will know future demand and whether a capacity of 50,000 or 60,000 is warranted?
Rob Young
256 Posted 05/04/2018 at 14:56:47
The home end design cannot be right.

The angle is too steep for current regulations and also Meis himself said they angle will need to be more shallow to actually allow for possible future standing areas.

Trevor Skempton
257 Posted 05/04/2018 at 15:40:58
When I first started going regularly to Goodison in the 1960s, plus the occasional visit to Anfield, I was struck by the contrast between the two grounds.

Everton had towering double-decker stands on all four sides (the only club in England to have four sides like this). Liverpool was single-tier on all sides, although almost half the fans were concentrated behind one goal, giving it a unique asymmetric atmosphere. Everton's own unique asymmetry was provided by the church jutting into one corner of the ground.

The double-decker stands meant Everton had a smaller stadium ‘footprint', with more fans closer to the action. This point is demonstrated clearly in Dan Meis's diagrammatic section showing the outline of the new Bramley-Moore Main Stand superimposed on the present Main Stand at Goodison Park.

While Dan Meis argues rightly that fans should be as close as possible to the action, he seems to have given a greater priority to all fans being able to see each other, as in a standard single-tier Arena ‘bowl', without overhangs. Average distances from the pitch (for a given capacity), while rightly minimised at the front, are therefore little different from the norm in any other single-tier stadium (e.g. Anfield, Southampton, Leicester), and considerably greater than in stadiums with overlapping tiers such as Goodison Park, Cardiff National Stadium or the Nou Camp in Barcelona. The Cardiff stadium, in particular, is renowned for its atmosphere, and holds 74,000 in multi-tiers on a very tight city-centre footprint.

At the beginning of the Premier League, the ‘gold standard' for seating capacity was 40,000. Old Trafford, for example, was designed for 44,000. The equivalent gold standard is now 60,000, and this is being actively pursued by all the clubs in the current Top 6. This ‘gold standard' may well rise further in the future, as – we hope – will Everton's expectations.

I agree that to achieve ‘first-class' seating in all parts of the ground, a capacity of less than 55,000 may be the optimum (e.g. new ‘ideal' stadiums for Juventus, Roma, Shakhtar Donetsk, etc), but it is notable that, when the architect recommended 56,000 for Spurs, he was over-ruled by his Chairman, who said that they had to match their immediate competitors – and a further 5,000 seats were added.

For Everton, my own recommendation would be for 52,000 immediately, with two overhanging 10,000-seat upper stands (West and East ‘top balconies') to be allowed for and added when required, giving an ultimate capacity of 72,000.

Tom Hughes
258 Posted 05/04/2018 at 15:46:09
The rake angle can go up to 34° according to the green guide for seated areas, but only 25° for standing. At Spurs they have accommodated it by graduating the rake in sections. Shallower near the front. This then roughly equates with the ideal increasing curve of a constant c-value stand. Spurs have put a large riser step half way up to allow a lower standing section with seated area unaffected behind. I assume Meis plans the same.
Peter Lee
259 Posted 05/04/2018 at 15:48:27
At the meeting, Dan Meis made clear that the tightness of the site would mean that later additions would be impossible. He also said that they are always very expensive unless the services and related infrastructure are part of an initial build.

That seems to make sense. LFC spent £100m on an additional 8,000 seats. Seems to reinforce his oft-qouted remark about the last 10,000 seats being the most expensive.

Peter Lee
260 Posted 05/04/2018 at 15:57:12
I like the idea of overhanging stands too. However, getting 50,000+ in the space available requires steep stands. Any overhung tier above them would need to be monstrously high and incredibly steep to avoid impacting the view from the rear of the lower tier.

Its not just about seeing the whole pitch, there's an expectation about the big screens too.

Trevor Skempton
261 Posted 05/04/2018 at 16:05:24
Peter: Both Robert Elstone and Dan Meis have played down the possibility of future expansion, but it is surely logical that Everton's realistic expectations should rise to at least the level of the current 'Top 6' clubs.

Having seen Dan Meis's preliminary sections, I can't see any technical reason why one or more long-term phases can't be allowed for (e.g. 'top balconies' on each side, each with an independent structure, services and access) – those possibilities would become part of every Evertonians' ultimate dream.

Peter Lee
262 Posted 05/04/2018 at 16:09:42
Safe-standing.

Me and our kid, me 11 him 8, used to get in to Gladwys St as soon as the gates opened, mid-60s. Before the walls were raised for the World Cup we'd get a spec at the front. We could both see. After that he couldn't. We'd go halfway up the terrace at a point were the horizontal and vertical barriers crossed. He'd sit on the crossover point and I'd stand in front of him.

That solved the problem. We couldn't be arsed bringing milk crates with us.

Last month at Stoke I could see little of the game. Two seats in front of me were occupied by lads who were well over six foot. I'm 5'11". There aren't that many small kids at away games. I have seen them lifted by parents and standing on the seats trying to see.

Can't see any way that safe-standing would solve these problems. Imagine buying your season ticket and finding yourself behind somebody six inches or more taller.

Tom Hughes
263 Posted 05/04/2018 at 17:05:13
If tightness of site is an issue then overlapping tiers are imperative. Making the front row within spitting distance of the touchlines sounds great, but sends the rake angle of the lower tier upwards the knock-on effect is the upper tiers are sent higher and further back, like LFCs. As a result that overall average viewing distance is no better than in a single tier, and there is no real increased benefit of elevation in the upper tiers as they are so far away. This can also increase construction cost as the volume of material required increases too.

Adding just 2-4 metres to the distance to the front row can have a dramatic effect on this and add sufficient space for future capacity at the rear.

David McMulllen
264 Posted 05/04/2018 at 18:19:27
When did double-decker stands become 'overhangs'? Is this an American terminology?

From the designs thus far the tv screen end (it will be the biggest tv in the country like I says sarcastically) why can this not be a double decker stand? It is shown on the Goodison footprint that it is the same size as the Gwladys Street so what about a modern double decker Gwladys Street opposite the new 'blue wall'?

Re the capacity great point Steve (256). While he's single minded It's clear the club have given him a low 50k's brief. I'll not be moved that it's nothing to do with size envy it's about being ambitious and aspiring to be the best. Low 50's smacks of a small-time mentality and short-termism.

Brian Wilkinson
265 Posted 05/04/2018 at 22:18:49
So on one hand we are being told the last ten thousand seats are the hardest and that possibly 50, to 55k is the most likely so that there are not empty seats, then Everton release this:

Yet with only one day left to renew season tickets for 2018-19, sales are ahead of last season's record-breaking figure.

Everton Season Ticket members have until midnight on Friday to renew and guarantee their seat for the 2018-19 season.

Fans who do not renew before the deadline will not only lose their seat but could miss out on a 2018-19 season ticket altogether, with thousands of Evertonians on a waiting list to become new Season Ticket Members for next season.

What part of a new ground, possible additional fans gained and a new manager in charge, are the club missing.

If we can get record sales with the shite this season and thousands on waiting list, there will be an even bigger demand for the new stadium.

Wake up and smell the coffee and forget about 50k, it needs to be closer to 60k, if this is the case now in regards to season ticket sales.

Gareth Humphreys
266 Posted 05/04/2018 at 22:20:18
Steve, 256, he's been tasked with designing a stadium within various constraints. His way of thinking is that he would rather it be a sell out every week and a shortage of tickets than a shortage of buyers. It seems that the club concur. Personally I was always of the opinion of 60,000 - 70,000 capacity but he has changed my mind.
Brian Wilkinson
267 Posted 05/04/2018 at 22:59:53
See my comment above Gareth in regards to club comment on season ticket renewal. Now we have thousands on the waiting list, which will grow even more with a new stadium.
Gareth Humphreys
268 Posted 05/04/2018 at 23:15:40
Yup, which hopefully means it is always full.

Don Alexander
269 Posted 05/04/2018 at 23:17:06
Right now Man Utd, City, Liverpool, Newcastle, Arsenal and West Ham already have capacities in excess of 50k. Very soon Spurs and Chelsea will join them.

Okay, Newcastle and West Ham don't pose a threat to the now innate hierarchy but by coincidence those with the largest capacities tend to win the most trophies and it'll get better/worse, depending on your personal take on the way monies are dispersed courtesy of TV, the Premier League and UEFA. Liverpool buck the trend this season with 54k as their sell-out figure.

Happily though, we seem to have an owner/board with sufficient confidence to plan to buck this trend for years and years to come by merely matching the Liverpool capacity as of now, at best, yet still achieve consistent qualification for the Champions League as a minimum, and all this whilst being renowned, if we're even known at all, for being embarrassingly inept in any of our rare ventures into Europe. We pay top six salaries for sure, especially to a manager, but only every has-been or never-will-be sees us a lucrative destination, and that's the Kenwright legacy.

I don't know what the Latin is for "Only The Bog Standard Is Good Enough" but maybe that deserves to be our 21st century motto.

Lawrence Green
270 Posted 05/04/2018 at 23:32:44
Don (#270)

"Only Bog Standard is Good Enough" = 'palus est non satis vexillum'

"Only The Bog Standard Is Good Enough" = 'satis est modo vexillum palus obducat'


Geoffery Cadman
271 Posted 05/04/2018 at 23:48:29
I enjoyed the workshop I attended, and the initial plans look promising. The confines of the site are disappointing, with no possibility for expansion. How was this going to accommodate a running track for the Commonwealth Games.

One way to increase capacity would be with rail seating. When the topic of safe standing/rail seating came up, this seemed to be glossed over. Quote ratio is 1:1, rail seats are more expensive, nothing is gained. I know the legislation doesn't allow it at the moment, but in four year's time, it probably will.

Back to the ratio. Even on the plans 1:1 was an assumption. With 2 rows of steps, between each row of seats, the ratio is 1:1.8. Even the maximum rake angle can be increased. Celtics safe standing area has a rake of over 29° in the rear rows. The tread depth (700mm) was too small to allow two rows of steps.

The initial cost of the rail seats is about 30% Higher than the conventional seats. Not a lot in a £½ Billion budget. Every 5,000 seats would give standing room for 9000. I hope the club look into this Further before deciding on the final plans.

Don Alexander
272 Posted 05/04/2018 at 23:57:56
Thanks Lawrence! (#271)

And thanks to Mr Cadman too (#272). He raises a very important point regarding ground capacity vis-a-vis a putative running track that needs an explanation from the club and/or Joe Anderson as far as I'm concerned, to sustain the integrity on which Bramley-Moore Dock was in the first place put forward to Evertonians as our salvation by way of mega-capacity....... with a running track?

Chris Leyland
273 Posted 06/04/2018 at 00:15:08
Do we actually have thousands on the waiting list for season tickets? The reason I ask is that I received an unsolicited text message from the club today inviting me to register my interest for one for next season.

It advised me that once I registered, the club would then call me in mid April to ‘secure my seat'. It wasn't vague about it being subject to availability or anything. I thought it was a bit strange to do this if we already have thousands waiting in a queue as I'm not currently on any waiting list.

Peter Lee
275 Posted 06/04/2018 at 00:36:25
The only club statement I recall re waiting list was before the start of last season when it was said that we had one for the first time. Don't recall numbers from the club.
Anthony Murphy
276 Posted 06/04/2018 at 00:41:03
Is it possible that the club have a limited (reduced) budget than first anticipated and that this is why Dan is outlining the ‘benefits' of a reduced capacity, not many executive boxes, and site constraints?

We're lapping it up, yet not long ago he was tweeting hints about a 60k capacity. Even outlining that it's very difficult to expand once built seems short-sighted..

I'm really excited by the plans, but I've got to say Dan is a fantastic salesman and knows how to work his audience!

Don Alexander
277 Posted 06/04/2018 at 00:56:02
Chris, Peter and Anthony (posting since I did) if you read anything into your truthful comments/beliefs you'd be forced towards the conclusion that even our own owner/chairman takes us as fools.

As if! Hmmm.

Tom Hughes
278 Posted 06/04/2018 at 06:13:18
I got multiple messages before I renewed. I think the waiting list evaporated by last October.
John G Davies
279 Posted 06/04/2018 at 06:47:50
Anyone who wants a season ticket for next season but is put off by a "waiting list" only needs to apply after the cut off point for renewal. They will welcome you with open arms.

There is no waiting list.

Erik Dols
280 Posted 06/04/2018 at 08:19:38
I've read some seemingly sensible explanations on why less than 60k might be wise. And that the last 10k seats are the most expensive and the least profitable. But can someone explain to me what the difference is with German stadiums?

Bayern Munich built the Allianz Arena with a capacity of 66k and almost instantly regretted this decision. They have used every corner and trick to get it up to 75k without doing major structural work, but to go any higher would be a very expensive move.

Now we are no Bayern Munich, but some smaller German teams are looking to expand as well. FC Köln is a team that gets relegated every odd season over the past 20 years. They have a stadium with a capacity of around 50k and are looking to expand or build a new stadium with at least 75k capacity. And they are not the only team.

Ticket prices in Germany are lower than in the Premier League. While Bayern Munich is an absolute financial powerhouse, FC Köln is not.

How can it be that for those teams, it makes sense to go (far) beyond 60k, but for Everton, it doesn't? I cannot believe that it is solely due to standing areas as both teams have played in Europe and need to install seats for those games.

Tony Abrahams
281 Posted 06/04/2018 at 08:59:07
Is FC Köln, the same as Cologne, Eric? I ask because I went to that stadium twice during the 2006 World Cup, and thought it was a fantastic stadium.

I've said it before on these pages, but for not much more than the cost of the new Wembley, the Germans built six new stadiums and refurbished two more. Something about the cost of British steel I think, which is why I'm confused by all of this, considering Usmanov, is one of Moshiri's biggest friends.

Hopefully just more money to be made when he sells us, because if one of your best mates owns a lot of steel, then surely you should be able to make a shiny new stadium, for a steal?

Erik Dols
282 Posted 06/04/2018 at 11:04:14
I'm sorry, Tony, Köln is German spelling and I forgot to translate it. Cologne (French and English spelling) indeed, same club/stadium. I live under 90 minutes away from Cologne and I try to visit the stadium once a year. I like the stadium as well, would be great if the stadium on the docks had the same intensity.
Tom Hughes
283 Posted 06/04/2018 at 12:10:50
Fc Koln's stadium is only 46k capacity in fully seated mode. It is quite a basic design with only limited corner sections and a catenary supported roof. Neat and tidy, but nothing exceptional.
Steve Ferns
284 Posted 06/04/2018 at 12:17:19
50k for regular games and 46k for international games. Is this what you mean Tom?

They've got the Jay-Z and Beyoncé concert there too. This is something we need to tap into. How can we ensure that the biggest pop acts use our stadium instead of the Echo Arena, or skip Liverpool altogether?

The Echo Arena is owned by LCC. Now our stadium will be built on land owned by Peel. Are Peel not interested in owning a concert venue for these pop acts as part of the Liverpool Waters scheme? Can they themselves not be persuaded to invest in the stadium, and so ease some of the financial concerns?

Shane Corcoran
285 Posted 06/04/2018 at 12:27:43
I haven't read much of this thread (or much on the website lately as it's a pretty glum time being a blue) but has anyone mentioned the safe standing that Celtic have?

I see Liverpool fans or reps were up looking at it recently. It generates a great atmosphere. Maybe it's something to look into when we actually have something to shout about.

Erik Dols
286 Posted 06/04/2018 at 12:39:36
Tom, I respect your opinion greatly as you are clearly knowledgeable on the subject matter.

Neat and tidy but nothing exceptional, totally agree. But also it has a better atmosphere than almost every new 40k+ ground I visited over the last ten or fifteen years. Also, I can get a beer within one or two minutes invariably. It is very efficient.

For me, I want a stadium that looks exceptional on the outside (Cologne's stadium does not, it is not an example in that regard) but has a great and intimidating atmosphere on the inside.

Yes, Cologne's stadium only holds 50k/46k. And they, as a team that at best can be considered mid-table (they're in a relegation spot right now) are looking for a much bigger stadium. Why would they want that if those extra seats cost a lot of money and hold little revenue?

According to you, what is wrong with having limited corner sections? Goodison has limited corner sections as well...

Tony Abrahams
287 Posted 06/04/2018 at 13:18:37
I can imagine that stadium, to be full of atmosphere, when Koln play, Eric? I sat behind the goal, and it was very steep, big steps, so you don’t catch the person in fronts head, and it was a great view all round.

I also stood at the back of the stadium, on little concourse at the side, (no ticket) and this was also good, but behind the goal was definitely better, because with it being so steep, the noise stays in the ground, which is what you should want if atmosphere is important?

The Germans, modelled their new stadiums on the old English grounds, getting the fans close to the pitch, which surely gives the home team a better advantage? And the English started building shite round stadiums, that do absolutely nothing to create a real atmosphere!

Same with the football, English clubs dominated by playing high intensity, non stop football, that keeps the crowd involved, and is something your opponent hates, and is now called gengapress I think?

An old phenomenon with a new name, but it creates so much atmosphere on the terraces, and makes people want to go the game.just imagine how big the waiting list for season tickets would be like, if Everton’s present team now, could start working as hard as our last great team, which has got to be the most important thing for any serious football club? Do it Out on the pitch, and the rest will take care of itself!

Tom Hughes
288 Posted 06/04/2018 at 14:35:54
Erik,

I wasn't really being critical of the Cologne stadium, but merely trying to explain its relatively low cost in relation to ours and other British stadia costs.

Of course there is nothing wrong with partial or empty corner sections per se, just referring to the relative inefficient use of space etc, plus the rather awkward views they offer if those straight stands continue parallel to the pitch right into the corner. In the Cologne case the reasoning was simply to minimise costs, as cost per seat can be excessive in these structurally more complex areas.

Philip Bunting
289 Posted 06/04/2018 at 19:29:04
Externally, how do people want the stadium to look. Just came across Atlanta Falcons new stadium. Wow. Looking at their digital screen we should try that as well.
Dave Lynch
290 Posted 06/04/2018 at 19:34:36
Look! Fuck all this fans consultation shit.

Trust the man to get it designed and build the fucking thing!

Consultations mean delays, get it built and stop arseing about, the longer we're at Goodison the longer we will stagnate.

Tom Hughes
291 Posted 06/04/2018 at 20:13:09
We could2ve said that about Kirkby too Dave look how that turned out. Our trust would've been entirely misplaced.

Fact is, the architect has been engaged for years now, and this consultation could've probably took place at almost any point in that time. So why now? I think the loss of the Commonwealth games bid, and the resultant financial shortfalls has led to a rejigging of the process. So why not take the opportunity to understand the design ethos that will influence the make-up of our new home?

Grant Rorrison
292 Posted 06/04/2018 at 20:38:24
I don't see the harm in letting fans get involved in the design of the stadium. Least when it's built they cant really complain about it if they've had their say. Although they probably still will.

Even if it was built tomorrow it wont get us three points if the team is terrible. That's where our focus needs to be. Whether that means buying new players, changing the manager or coaching staff or just working with what we've got long enough to actually get somewhere.

I don't think a universally unpopular manager playing a universally unpopular style of football represents the best building block to start off with though. So, the first step seems pretty obvious.

Dave Lynch
293 Posted 06/04/2018 at 20:54:04
Tom.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for you as an Evertonian and your knowledge around design and technology, having read all of you input on this site for over 10 years.

The thing is this. I have no interest in understanding design ethos, all I'm interested in is a fit for purpose stadium and a flourishing club.

I get the feeling all this consultation process is just another stalling tactic designed to prolong the build.

Maybe I'm just impatient? I'm getting on in years now, smoke to much and drink to much. Just want to see the club progress my friend.

Dermot Byrne
294 Posted 06/04/2018 at 20:54:26
I still think the Moshiri plan re our club has always been the ground and the plan for team/manager etc is all linked to this.

I also think he will now have learned that he needs better for interim than we have had but still think the big days come with the ground.

Insanely optimistic? Probably.

Steve Ferns
295 Posted 06/04/2018 at 21:09:35
Dermot, I agree about Moshiri's plan involving the ground.

Moshiri is not new to football. He was at Arsenal, with his mate Usmanov. So it's not like he's jumped in thinking he can syphon off some of the TV money and make a few quid.

His plan is surely to buy Everton for a knockdown price, to spend a few quid building a ground, stay a few years as the value soars, then to sell for top dollar.

If he gets the ground right, maintains the club as a top 10 Premier League side (only 3 bottom half finishes since 2004), and football continues to grow at home and abroad (signs are there is a lot of growth in China and America), then Everton's value will grow substantially and he can make a killing.

If he delivers it, I'm sure we'd thank him for his leadership, investment and wish him well for the future.

Tom Hughes
296 Posted 06/04/2018 at 21:21:24
I couldn't disagree with your sentiment Dave... I'm a bit of a stadium anorak, but even I am weary from being wary about our never-ending stadium dilemmas. I'm also long enough in the tooth to understand that impatience too. Let's hope we eventually get to see the finished article, and that it does fulfil all our needs and ambitions.
Dave Lynch
297 Posted 06/04/2018 at 21:42:29
Amen to that Tom.
Paul Smith
298 Posted 06/04/2018 at 22:00:06
I'm not condoning what those lot did last night but they were organised on and off the pitch.

Intimidate and rattle Citeh as much as possible, by whatever means, and the fans were unstrimental in this. It worked, they won, and we're judging them.

I would swap their problems for ours all day

Jeff Armstrong
299 Posted 06/04/2018 at 22:13:23
299, “I'm not condoning what those lot did last night” but I admired the nonsensical Galatasaray circa ‘95 behaviour as acceptable.
Eric Paul
300 Posted 06/04/2018 at 22:26:27
Paul
Stealing tickets from their own fans,
Destroying away grounds toilets,
Attacking ambulances with injured opposition players in,
Throwing excrement and urine onto opposition fans below,
Throwing socks full of excrement onto the pitch at goodison.
That’s why I judge them
And heysel.
Brian Williams
301 Posted 06/04/2018 at 22:39:21
Very grown up thinking Paul.
Rob Halligan
302 Posted 06/04/2018 at 22:54:12
Storming the gates at wolves when they won the league there in the 70's, and then turning cars over on the M6 which was at a standstill on their way back.

The list goes on Eric.

Eric Paul
303 Posted 06/04/2018 at 23:06:23
Storming the gates at Wembley 2012 rob
Paul Smith
304 Posted 06/04/2018 at 23:23:42
When was the last time we stormed the gates of wembley ?
Anthony Murphy
305 Posted 06/04/2018 at 23:48:50
Don’t want to be too sanctimonious but while we are at it can we add gassing the mancs and fans at Anfield in the 80’s?
Eric Paul
306 Posted 07/04/2018 at 00:02:42
Paul
You tell us !
Andy Crooks
307 Posted 06/04/2018 at 00:04:32
Steve, # 296 I believe you are are one of the most astute posters on this site but would you really be happy to see Moshiri or, frankly, any other carpetbagger make a " killing" from our club.
Of course that is what he is here for but the idea that he worthy of respect and admiration is ( I know that is not your view) is utterly ludicrous.

He is likely, in the list of possible carpetbaggers, not the worst but he has as much heartfelt, none financial interest as my next door neighbours dog. Which,by the way, is called Shankly.
How rife, just of a matter of interest, and totally unrelated is distemper these days?

Mike Connolly
308 Posted 07/04/2018 at 09:21:12
Anyone notice every time we get beat embarrassingly, the stadium gets a big mention and more images shown. Probably got more images ready for Monday... hope not.
Tony Everan
309 Posted 07/04/2018 at 09:59:30
It’s very cynical to say that Mr Moshiri is in it purely for the money. It’s just not true.

There comes a time when money is just a lubricant. I think that Mr Moshiri wants the ride, wants the project.

He likes being No 1 after being a tea boy at Arsenal, I see him as a proud individual who wants his own agenda and his own legacy. He is very mild mannered but he has an iron will .

I think he wants to see his bold plans come to fruition, more than the business of just making a few more million.

He knows it’s a good investment and will get a return but I don’t think that is th be all and end all.

Anthony Murphy
310 Posted 08/04/2018 at 19:23:52
I see Dan Meis has got himself a 1878 tattoo... No going back now!
Brian Foley
311 Posted 08/04/2018 at 22:16:52
Vomitory (prefer aisle myself) IS a passage or entry/exit from the amphitheatre (Roman) we’ve got them at the Principality (Millennium) Stadium. Field vomitory (only one) in the NE corner of the Principality called the ‘Dragons Mouth’ is used for the Speedway bikes/shale tractors entry and exit for brass bands guards ets even trucks for concerts eg Rolling Stones coming up again on June 15 so a very necessary ‘vomitory/aisle’. The new ‘Goodison’ looks like it will have more than one so useful for maybe concerts etc., to look forward to, but the pitch will need to be ‘mobile’. Capacity as stated 61878 like it. Name: THE Merseyside Stadium. Take cover Bri.

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