Face-to-face fan consultation begins over new stadium

But what the fuck is 1878-style seating? And what the fuck is a Vomitory? Somewhere to spew up safely?

Love the look of it. At last!!!

Just build it, for fuck's sake.

It will be even more interesting to see the external façade of the stadium and how it reflects the local heritage of the surrounding dockland.

The club and its respective partners in the project now need to press on and get the 'funding' in place. We need to see 'spades in the ground'. That may shut the doubters up.

Make it happen, Everton.

It registered that it's superimposed over Goodison's footprint and is much bigger. Can't argue with that like.

Looks good to me, but there's a long way to go.

Big thing for me is seeing what we can build on the site before getting hung up on numbers.

There're double-decker (at least) stands on three out of four sides, mate.

This isn't a complaint, Dan Meis is very clearly very excited to share renderings of the exterior when allowed to do so.

In terms of layers or cantilevering he did explain that it's a lot more expensive and gives less concourse space inside.

There were also side elevation images showing the distance from the pitch of all the seats and comparisons with other stadiums. The only one that compares will be the new Stamford Bridge with the London Stadium being almost double the distance.

He also talked about taking elements of Goodison with us but not in a cheesy – Las Vegas – way but in a subtle, tasteful way.

The biggest thing I took away from the event is that ‘he gets it', ‘he gets the club', ‘he gets us' – I am really positive and can't wait to see the full renderings.

Yes as in 'tiers' but not 'double-decker' – Top Balcony style, so to speak.

I suspect the only difference might be die-for location, good catering, floors without wood rot, boxes to bring in decent income, an ability to see the whole pitch, a better atmosphere, proper disabled facilities etc – and that is just the inside.

The real challenge will be to improve on that beautiful prefab chic of the outside of Goodison. To me, corrugated metal offsetting decidedly poor church architecture will be so hard to beat.

In the absence of new songs, at least in the new one we can sing "If ya know yer history" with a bit of gentle humour.

Dan Meis reassured me that rising ocean levels will be factored into the plans – thus dashing the RS hopes that it'll be submerged in 30 years.

My gut impression is that its being done on the cheap. A capacity of 50k is not forward thinking at all. We are spending hundreds of millions to get a measly 10k boost on capacity

One last thing – please god, let it be a symmetrical stadium – not a mish-mash of odd shapes.

I'm 100% unimpressed.

I thought the majority of fans had favoured a square design, this illustrates a “bowl” concept.

To allow for future “safe standing”, the home “wall” has been designed with a more “shallow rake” which will result in less home fans being close to the pitch reducing the intimidation factor of having a single wall of seats.

This compromise doesn't make sense for me and we would be better putting the “shallow rake” for safe standing in a different part of the ground, possibly the opposite end, which could even resulti in us having two “loud” ends to kick towards.

Verging on fantasy in modern Premier League...

Verging on fantasy in modern PL

,,michael.kenrick@gmail.com ,1,20:22:27,,90.204.68.198,ok,19546,04/02/2018 20:22:27,debyrne,reader,, 908122,36467,toffeeweb,02/04/2018,Ian Burns,penedes9@gmail.com,"Gareth (#13) and Bill (#18) – Thanks for those brief notes, appreciated.

At last, I can believe this is all happening and it looks terrific from the plans/drawings produced thus far.

Question: Who is going to have the honour of putting the first spade in?

Sorry, lads... just dream on. Gillmoss, here we come!!!

The last couple of paragraphs, I hate this downplaying of the size in favour of either intimacy or keeping the tickets in demand. It still lacks confidence in our fan base and the size of our club. I don't get it at all. 60,000 plus it must be to match our competitors. Presumably that means 50k Newcastle then?

Great location, I agree. But, for half a billion plus, the hints being given are for a capacity of not much more than 50,000. May as well just expand the Park End by 5,000 and modernise the Main Stand roofing to allow the removal of the ugly pillars that currently hold it up and obscure so many views, saving Mishiri 𧹺m (to spend on overhauling our pathetic squad).

It's not going to happen, of course, since Moshiri and his backers' prime focus is the whole northern docks area with the massive potential for the development and expansion of the city.

Only thing is, after spending fortunes on hospitality over the past 10 years, a pal of mine said he'd been asking Everton for a decent bottled beer and some other drinks to be made available, just like every other Premier League ground.

He says the club just ignore him and every other request anyone makes. He tells me it's now a running joke. You can't exactly take your custom elsewhere, can you?

Meis definitely has the look of a young Philip Green, though!

I may be misinterpreting you but when you say the above, is that the good side as you see it?

I think the design is trying to accommodate the fans' wish to have a more square design whilst avoiding wasting valuable (and profitable) space. The overlay on top of Goodison shows just how much wastage there is even without the higher level extension beyond the current footprint. It also shows how hemmed in we are and why (sadly) a re-vamped Goodison is not an option.

Looking at the designs and taking them at face value, where the stadium meets the pitch, it does so at four points; like a square / rectangle.

Call me pedantic, but even externally that doesn't look like a bowl to me. Last time I looked, even an extended 8 sided shape was called an octagon.

Ah... you mean as in one directly on top of the other?

Definition of vomitory, plural vomitories: an entrance piercing the banks of seats of a theater, amphitheater, or stadium.

In fact it doesn't look that impressive to me – very bitty with lots of interruptions and those vomitories should be in the corners not almost behind the goals in prime viewing positions .

I thought concept design is usually what makes you go "Wow!" And the real thing is usually a watered down version, hope it's the other way round this time.

I'm underwhelmed, but maybe these are preliminary designs? I really hope so. Anybody saying it will look better with a roof – yes I agree, but 3 sides of the Nou Camp have no roof and that is impressive. Not sure about this tbh.

After months of emphasising the intimate atmosphere importance, it looks like any other ground. I was expecting a much steeper gradient. A much larger imposing 'Dortmund'-style safe-standing end.

55,000 should be an absolute minimum. West Ham are getting over that attendance and they absolutely hate their stadium and have an even worse team.

Totally agree that 55,000 should be the minimum.

The kudos of a bigger stadium than Liverpool, Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea should not be underestimated.

Spurs are the blueprint for us on and off the pitch. Ironic when you think Green and Earl, a pair of cock(erel)s, had so much influence over this Club for so long.

I look forward to further comments from those who have been there.

I wonder what they've got lined up for next week? Pictures of the roof?

Tonight, I am with Lori and have confidence in Dan Meis. It seems we have a new doubt or bad rumour every week and we all crawl back into our fearful selves. But the project slowly plods on and we sheepishly re-emerge!

I think it was Moshiri who recognised the importance of the first spade in the ground to show this is actually going to happen. I agree and when it does start being built, that will be so exciting.

Of course, it will never ever be exciting for some – life just isn't – but for most of us.

It will be interesting to see what the outer facade will be like. I'm in favour of brick to tie in with the docks and it would be great to have something different with some character and not just another modern bowl.

"'Everton' and 'fuck-up' seem to be synonymous, no?"

Afraid that's too often true, Alan! But let's wait till they piss on this bag of chips before we mock them!

But as Uncle Mort (I Didnt Know You Cared) used to say..."The trouble with this world is that there's too much bloody optimism!"

Let's hope it's vinegar, eh, not piss...

Entry to the first two tiers is level with the external ground level, which covers an underground car park. Upper two tiers are suspended above the lower on reinforced concrete columns. The three tiers flow upwards and the higher seats are some way from the pitch.

I'm not an engineer but it seems that they could have built partly out over the lower tier to add to the intimidation factor.

Seats were comfortable and significantly wider than at Goodison Park.

If we manage to pull this off, it would be a massive coup for everyone concerned. I am hoping and praying we all witness the diggers moving on to Bramley-Moore next summer.

Now, all we need is the finance to pay for it, along with the planning permission to be granted to build it, which must be granted by a Kopite love-in council committee. Let's not forget, we are asking this same council to arrange a loan for EFC to pay for the lion's share of this build deal. It is all well and good looking at imaginary drawings but the reality is a lot different. A lot more worrying.

There are more obstacles to this deal at Bramley-Moore Dock than any fans' survey, forum or meeting in a church will ever understand. This Bramley-Moore stadium situation is much more than just throwing up a new ground in a run-down part of the City. The whole area looks like Dresden after WW2 and that's no disrespect meant to the poor souls in Germany.

Again, this evening, I drove home along the Dock Road to avoid all the road works that start from just after Bootle down to the Tia Pan. It's not a pretty sight. Needs a development of Salford Quay proportions. Is that feasible?? I am not sure it is really. If the stadium build and dock drainage is coming in at around 𧺬 million, I can only imagine how much is needed for the infrastructure repairs. Another 𧺬 million wouldn't scratch the surface.

My honest opinion is the project is too big, too expensive, and would take too long to ever get off the ground. For those of you who don't know Liverpool so well, this proposed site at Bramley-Moore is a billion miles away from the Kings Dock location. Kings Dock is bang in the middle of town, next door to the Albert Dock and Liverpool One. Bramley Moore is next door to a sewerage Plant in a forgotten part of the City. Enough said, Guys. Sorry.

Much of tonight was about the technical stuff about the site and particularly the seating rather than the aesthetics but there was enough (for me anyway), about the design ideas, to be happy that he knows what he's doing and understands the fans.

He is clearly being held back from giving all of the information he has at the moment. Frustrating but I think the club are trying, possibly too hard, to manage the flow of information. Once bitten, and all that...

Spurs ‘home' End has 17,500 seats. Rest of stadium is 3 tier, capacity: 62,000.

Google it, then look at this, draw your own comparisons. Me? Disappointed.

But, wait for it... we'll have the biggest telly in Europe!

I've seen a pic on Twitter that suggests the Archibald Leitch criss-cross will feature within bar/hospitality areas of the ground.

My impression is generally positive. I'm not sure about the score board end. Reminds me of the score board end at the old White Hart Lane. It doesn't look like a 60,000 stadium on the basis of that end of the ground to me.

From the pics, maybe 55.000 at a push. It has to be 55k minimum. Anything less is showing the same lack of foresight that we had when the board said that the plans for the new Park End would be more than sufficient in the early days of the Premier League.

Having been going to games since the end of the golden 80s era, in how many games do you think we'd have filled 60,000? You lot are off your head. Some of you forget the likes of Newcastle are a one-team city.

There will be a very fine balance between extra seats and 25 years worth ££ in repaying the stadium.

For one I'm happy with a new 40k stadium that packs out every week and spend the money on the team imagine a 60,000-seater stadium with 10,000 empty seats every week, great atmosphere that would be... not!

COYB.

Don't get me wrong: If we do move, I want it to be groundbreaking, multi-functional, and the envy of the rest of the Premier League. I want to be able to enjoy the experience as well as the football.

I don't want to be embarrassed by thousands of empty spaces. I hope we can generate an atmosphere and not oversize but have the ability to extend if the needs comes to it.

What Premier League ground has the best atmosphere? In my opinion, it's Palace, not the soulless big boys. Most other grounds are lifeless places that want to take the most money from you and provide the least amount with the away fans making the atmosphere.

Man City haven't even sold out their ground for the champions league clash against Liverpool. Arsenal are running out of excuses as to why their ground is half-empty... whilst Sunderland are in total free fall.

The club have to box clever by maximising the corporate and floating fan base whilst retaining existing support. Moshiri also needs to keep ploughing money into the 1st team squad otherwise a new stadium means nothing if the team is awful.

The capacity has to be 61,878. 50,000 is a lack of ambition and so is the so few private boxes.

The actual look of stadium design is perfect in my opinion because as some have already suggested it closely resembles Goodison Park and retains intimacy.

The bigger the safe standing area, the better

I understand where you're coming from but these meetings have been planned for weeks.

I was told back in January that there would not be that many executive boxes in the new stadium. Probably less than what the RS's new stand holds. The stadium was to be built for the fans, and not the Prawn Sandwich brigade. I believe there will be about 75 boxes in total. The RS's new stand has over 7000 corporate seats.

I've always said that corporate facilities is where the most money is generated, but as many have told me, if we have between, say, 200 – 300 corporate boxes, could we sell them all? I don't know. You sometimes see the boxes in front of the main stand where maybe one of two are not occupied.

Still, we shall wait and see.

The reason I state it's a bowl is because it is labelled on the third diagram above, but I do take your point. I would have thought ‘bowl' or ‘square' would refer to the exterior appearance and the space would be optimised as you describe in either scenario.

Very similar to Juve Stadium if you Google their stadium images.

It's not as simple as the club or designers choosing to do it.

However, there was no real info so I'm only assuming.

You're never going to please everybody.

What's the outside going to look like?

Start digging, ffs.

Now that the general images are released, I'm sure it wont be too long before the full inside, roof and outdoor images are released.

As a matter of interest, do you have any relatives in the northeast? You have an unusual surname and I used to work with someone with the same name in the past.

Also, was there any talk of whether the pitch will be at or below the existing quay level? In other words is the dock going to be completely filled in?

On the eight sided configuration - I think that is a good thing. The people seated at the corners won't have to turn their heads much to see every part of the pitch. They will be good seats, I reckon.

I am really happy the disabled are getting a better view and that they are being realistic with the capacity. 61,878 means nothing really, no more than 51,878. The incorporation of the bits of Goodison is a great idea but it must not end up tatty.

The 200 longest serving season ticket holders could have filled the questionnaires for everybody and watched a 60,000 capacity stadium built. That seems to be the desired size from most fans.

The longer these drawings and meetings take place, the more fans bickering about design will be inevitable.

https://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com/2018/4/2/17190436/everton-new-stadium-designs-revealed-bramley-moore-large-steep-home-end-dortmund-yellow-wall

Everton is so badly managed. . . therefore, confidence is in short supply that they will be able to manage this project.

Please aim for 55,000+. If the football on the pitch warrants it, then 45,000 fans will supply the noise.

"Wow. I can't believe we got them again."

"I know. Every year! Every year! We throw some absolute bollocks out there and it completely distracts the lot of them."

"You'd think they'd have learned by now. It's the same time every year and it works every time!"

"Don't fix it if it isn't broken. This time next year, we'll pretend we've identified a potential financer and they'll be hooked again."

"Hahahaha. I bloody love season ticket renewal time!"

"Me too Bill. Me too!"

I can't wait. But by the looks of it, I'll be eligible for a pensioner's season ticket before we even get underway.

I have to agree with you mate. The impressions look impressive superimposed over other Premier League grounds. Especially given it's bigger than Anfield. That said, it's misleading knowing we could end up with something in the region of 50k.

On the whole, I'm happy with what I've seen and like the idea of the home end. The ground has to be 55.000+ plus though.

My fear with Dan Mies is that he has spent too much time with Kenwright and Moshiri so this is his 99.9% when he refers to most blues.

Wind and rain factors have to be taken into account on a big scale so the bowl shape it will probably be with hopefully no less than 60,000

However, Are we going to be sold a 50k stadium with an increase to 55k “if” the safe-standing law ever happens.

To me anything less than 55k seats and we are just a mid-table also ran in current Premier League terms and will be just running to stand still.

The club are fearful we will not fill it and want a demand for tickets at the end of the day; the club are also cautiously watching the pennies. When it comes to the construction costs, both the club and Meis are scared of empty seats.

Meis cites it's not good for an intimate/intimidating atmosphere. Many fans doubt we can fill more than 55k and there is a reasonable arguement about the London factor for London teams, the international support for Man Utd and Liverpool and the success for Man City now with their stepped-up increase in stadium capacity over time.

Fair enough. But the poll on here also tells 62/63% want 60k or more. The footprint images seem to say it's 60k plus as it matches other stadiums and bigger even!

My opinion is we need to be bold and ambitious and confident in our fan base to build a 60k plus stadium. Otherwise, who are we? Who are our rivals/peers?

We need a new stadium; we have to applaud the club for going for it, it's a big spend. But we have to match the ambitions of our rivals. These days, the top 6.

For empty seats etc, why not have a variable capacity? One that can "hide" seats for the less bigger games (in the corner for example)? How about selling tickets cheaper for these games (Category B)?

What I do like are the comparisons to rival stadiums, and the fact that he is clearly trying to fit in the fabric of the city and make it an enclosed ground (avoid all references to 'bowls' Dan!!!). We're also set to see externals and how the roof will fit. Dugout on the left... dear god its like our first ground! At least the Directors will have view over the river... call me cynical 'but'!

As we all know, this has been a long journey and there is still some mileage left in this story. I am however optimistic at least that we will finally build our new home, and lets be honest, its long overdue!

It's a long time since we honestly had something to be proud about, bar waking every morning and remembering you're a blue; I'll be buying a ticket – and I hope to see you all there.

COYB

Andy, you should look into it. I've made the argument before on these pages and in my Place to Call Home piece last year that it can be designed to be completely safe if the sections are kept small.

As those who travel to aways and who stand the whole game on existing seated terracing, the current model is actually far more dangerous as people can get flung down several rows of seats during goal celebrations (admittedly not a big problem this season – ha ha!).

Rail seating has high barriers that prevent this and, as I say, the sections would be kept small and with allocated "seat" numbers (they can have fold-down seats too) to prevent over-crowding. it doesn't have to be anything like the "grim" old days of thousands of standing fans swaying and causing crushes against barriers and fences.

The row widths are not less than 80 cm and the sight lines "C" values between C90 and C60. Both comparable with or better than the New White Hart Lane stadium specs.

For those of us who like a bit of technical stuff, page 52 of this document is interesting reading.

Uefa Guide to Quality Stadiums

Sell the seats furthest away from the pitch, and so least effecting the atmosphere, last – the net effect is the same as having a 50k seater.

When we do sell out 60k, it will be extra special. When there are spare seats, sell them for buttons on the day to kids or give them to EitC.

Ha Ha, I used to to laugh at posts like that and think, poor old buggers. This was when we were moving to our lovely new stadium on the Kings Dock... Now, I'm watching that clock.

The People's Club concept may not be enough to let us compete at the top table, but at this point I just don't know. I'm also not keen on the jumbo screen end – just looks a bit mid table to me. Looking at that big jumbo screen plus the lack of executive boxes smacks of cost cutting, but I may be wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I get that English football attendances are better than Italy's but I wouldn't be disappointed with under 60k. Though 50k would be minimum for me. I reckon 55,000 with the option to expand would be a good starting point.

Oh, forgot, smiley face!

In all seriousness, how the feck will they put a roof over that big telly? Apart from that, it's pretty good... maybe a bit daft to put the wheelchairs upstairs – if an evacuation is required, imagine the poor buggers scrambling to the lift.

I am more familiar with the City centre, Albert Dock and King's Dock area and you could say that these were perhaps also largely forgotten areas until major re-development took place. These areas turned out well.

Given a few years, I am sure we will have a stadium, that is just part of a whole development, that we will be proud of. Meanwhile, when it comes to naming parts of the stadium, we could also consider naming the various exits after the managers that have left the club. Martinez Out, Koeman Out etc.

these initial illustrations seem like a typical 'flat pack' stadium. looks like a bigger version of the Madjeski Stadium

http://www.footballgroundguide.com/leagues/england/championship/madejski-stadium-reading.html

Exciting times, would be great if safe-standing becomes reality in the Premier League. As a few others are saying, bigger isn't all better when it comes to capacity.

The average cost of a seat in a stadium is around ٤k, but it's not linear. to go from 55k to 60k wont just be 5k seats at ٤k each, as Meis has mentioned.

As for those saying well West Ham can fill their 60k stadium so we should be able to. Yes, West Ham OCCASIONALLY get close to filling theirs, but they also massively discount the tickets trying to scrape fans in. You often see adverts in the papers for their games with ٣ tickets.

So the logic is, if it costs you 㿞m+ to add an extra 5k seats to the stadium, yet you can barely scrape ٣ per ticket to fill them (when you actually fill them as they will likely be empty for half the games), is it really worth doing it? Isn't it better to fill 55k at full ticket price? The club has to finance the repayments, yet if those expensive last 5k seats aren't actually bringing money in, they are just an expensive status symbol luxury. And if the club fails to perform on the pitch, the finances get even worse, as the repayments won't go away.

The executive box argument is the same: people saying we need more. If you were in charge of corporate hospitality at a big company, and you wanted to impress clients, would you book them a nice trip to Everton vs Stoke? Or do you think a Man City, Liverpool, or Spurs option would impress your clients more? You know, a high flying, attacking team, full of real international names and quality? Yes, it may be our ambition to join this level, but we are absolutely no where near it, and there are absolutely NO cast iron guarantees we will get there.

So yes, the club will have far better data than any of us will have, and they will be making an educated decision based on future income, attendance, league position etc. They won't, like most on here, just say lets build a bigger one so we can say ours is bigger than yours. That is school playground mentality.

If Spurs drop out of the top 6, or Arsenal, or Chelsea, once their fancy new stadiums are built, do you think they will still have money to splash on their squad? or do you think they will have to tighten their belts due to lost income and crippling repayments that may send them into a downward spiral? I for one don't want our club to go under, just for the greed of a section of fan base who want to brag about capacity we will rarely ever fill.

Deluded.

Hi mate. The Albert Dock and Kings Dock Area is slap bang in the middle of the City center, close to all the facilities and with minutes walking distance to the Pier head. The Bramley-Moore area is very isolated and really run down with no infrastructure in place whatsoever. This particular area of Liverpool has been all but abandoned for decades.

The dock Rd used to be the heart beat of the city but now it's derelict beyond belief. My concern is the fact that so much money would have to be generated to bring the area in to this century. Where will that finance come from? The Council are saying they will be borrowing money to lend to EFC so they don't have it.

It's all well and good discussing the roof and capacity on a new stadium but we need to get real. EFC are basically telling us they are potless yet at least a Billion quid needs to be found to make this Bramley-Moore Dock scheme viable. I am not being negative, just realistic.

It wouldn't surprise me to see government inquires start popping up over finance, feasibility studies and objections from Council members etc etc and LCC eventually walk away. Which leaves us where exactly?

Evertonians who have not yet been to the proposed site should do so before debating such things as standing only areas and Archibald Leitch designs. I promise you it will stop you in your tracks... This stadium is a million miles away from where a lot of you think it is.

Have you been to the Goodison morgue lately? How anyone can see this as imposing is beyond me.

Personally I was hoping for something wildly different (I'm not sure why) but that should appease a lot of supporters, shouldn't it?

It's also worth noting the wording on the designs as being 'bowl design'. One would imagine Meis will design more than one option before they settle on a final plan. I'm not an expert but I think that's how these things work.

There will be a naturally imposed limit on the capacity due to restrictions of the site and the financial burden on the club over the long-term.

The worrying aspect – disregarding any change in the law relating to standing – is that the capacity set at the beginning of the build, will forever be the limit on this particular site. Therefore, I do hope it's closer to 60k rather than 50k and like others have said I too see it being a compromise of circa 55k.

Biggest TV screen? What purpose does that serve, save to make the ground look a bit more filled in – unless of course they plan to show films on it, if the game is a little dull. I suppose they could relay away games on it.

As long as the club can afford to build it, albeit with a little help from its friends, then a revamped, updated version of Goodison Park is okay by me – I might just reach pensionable age by the time the doors open though.

A ground of 50-55,000 probably gets you the right size for we're Everton are. The ground I believe we shoot it for is the 60-62,000 one.

The reason if there is one to think cautiously about it is do we have a board room capable of forceful long that vision? Categorically no. Unless there is a major shakeup upstairs then I fear the small ground will be a poor legacy.

Now I will ask fellow posters a different view who are not sure about the design, let's just say it was possible with all the obstacles removed, if this was a plan of Goodison how it would be if we knocked the stands down, removed obstructed views and rebuilt the extensions as outlined, with the old Goodison on the inside of the images that are shown.

How many would be more than happy with the end results? Sometimes you have to take a different outlook, I would be made up if this was Goodison, just by looking at the main stand, you can see it is not possible where it curves in towards the park stand to build a stand further out, like on the photo of the new stand, add to that the houses in the Street End, the school, church and houses side of Bullens Road.

None of these obstacles are there at Bramley-Moore Dock; not only that, with being right in the heart of the City, will be pride of place for tourists.

I personally think if we get anything close to the photos, I would be happier than at Goodison and it's obstructed views and wooden seats, but it has to be more than 50k.

Until I see such a model, I'm going to keep my opinions to myself.

Would much rather have a 55,000 seater with an electric atmosphere and intimidating crowd presence than a 65,000 seater that sounds like a graveyard.

Perhaps increased demand is something that will be factored in and a modern stadium can faciliate expansion more easily than older ones? I've no idea.

I think it's inevitable that VAR will become more like the Rugby version and fans inside the stadium watching the replays will become part of the experience.

Answer: about 8 seconds!!

Your right. Although I like what I see and hear so far..whats really not been addressed here is how 50000+ fans get to and from there in the pissing down and windy winter days and nights. It's a good old walk from the town centre and the nearest rail station.

For this to be a total success, a real plan involving travel infrastructure needs to be included in any long term plan. I'm sure I've read in the past that there could be an opportunity to open an old rail line nearer to the location.

However this should not be an after thought and serious transport links should be incorporated into the overall plan. Otherwise you have 50000+ fans all walking along the the Dock Road as that's the only way out, east or west.

There's no chance of buses driving along there freely, before or after the game. A light railway would be ideal... but who would pay for that?

I'm sure the transport side is being thought through. Rail links, hovercraft etc.

"Otherwise ,you have 50000+ fans all walking along the the Dock Road as that's the only way out, east or west".

Going west from BMD gets you a tad wet?!

I suggest you go read up on Liverpool Waters, and perhaps take a trip down to Princes Dock to see the preparatory work that is underway as they start to begin this project. Some people don't half make up a load of crap on here. Let's not let reality get in the way of an excuse to have a rant against the owner.

Dave (#127) "I am going to apply now to be one of the first to have my ashes buried behind one of the goals".

I'm also going to ask for my remains to be scattered there on my death. Not cremated just scattered.

Obviously with it being fairly close to town there are not many places to have a park and ride from. Maybe they could run ferries to a park and ride at Otterspool prom. They could also set up a park and ferry ride from the Wirral.

Mind, knowing football clubs, fans parking comes way down the pecking order.

Yes, a fair degree of the seating capacity would be close to the pitch though it would not seemingly be particularly steep at the bottom tiers.

As for a 'Blue Wall' possibly accommodating just 12,000 – don't we currently have nigh on this number in the Street End, albeit in two tiers?

The increase in the number of spaces for the disabled is laudable though would seem to outstrip demand judging by the sparsity of supporters in the new Gwladys Street area. And having the areas skirting 3 sides of the pitch, doesn't this militate against the 'intimidation' objective, given that the effect is to reduce the concentration of perimeter numbers compared to other seating? In the modern era disabled areas should be custom built and provide for much better viewing than currently, not just positioned at ground level to facilitate easy access.

As for the 'vomitories', with intimidation and atmosphere again in mind, why on earth would you plan to carve out areas behind the goals?

Just some early thoughts, and views based solely on what I'm reading and seeing on these pages. But I have to say I'm a bit disappointed – and would be immensely let down with a capacity of just 50,000. Does anybody know, would this increase compared to current capacity be the smallest proportional new stadium increase (25%) of any top Division Club in the Premier League era?

Kings Dock and Albert Dock were also derelict previously and the regeneration proposal will transform North Liverpool. It has already started if you've ever visited the fantastic Titanic Hotel or the new apartment buildings that are sprouting up. As Steve says, this is part of a multi-billion project that will be supported by serious investment in the transport links needed. It will be much easier to route fans directly to Bramley-Moore by road and rail than through the city centre.

After years of rightfully slagging off the complacency and zero ambition of the club, get behind the plans as they are world class. If only we had a football team that wouldn't embarrass the new stadium.

You honestly believe we will attract 5k+ in casual tourist visitors to games?!! Ha ha ha ha...

Any tourist visiting Liverpool area that isn't affiliated with a club will go to a game at Anfield. Sad, but true. They have a far bigger worldwide reach, plus they play exciting football. Tourists from China etc will know all the Liverpool players. I bet they couldn't name 3 from our squad.

It's all well and good building in growth room, but what if the growth doesn't happen? The repayments don't stop if there's no growth!!

I will make a point of doing that. I'm aware of what they intend to build there..the housing, retail and recreational areas.. and that this was going to be 20 yr or so plan..

What I was not aware of was the plan for any mass transit facility to transport large numbers to this area... and over what time frame? ( I'm assuming the stadium will probably the first large build in the area.

I shall take your advice and go take a gander... interesting to see those transport plans.

Ha, ha, ha, ha. Your lack of ambition for your own club is pathetic.

I think that lacks ambition, Liverpool as a City is very popular for many reasons and actually you do need to court non-Evertonian, non-footballing people to the game. That is modern life.

Liverpool only play every other week, there is a market there to be seized! Your match going Evertonian cannot multiply and take up more than one seat.

It's important to show ambition and people will come for the new experience. If you limit yourself it's a problem, if you try and expand later on it's even more expensive with additional inconvenience.

Everton can make their gate receipts with a good ticketing strategy and ensure those extra seats are priced correctly to bring Evertonians who couldn't afford it and new people who want to experience something new.

I'll reiterate, the current board room has little or no expertise in this kind of vision and executing a plan to grow the club. So despite my desire to see us go big, sadly I think the result will be a stadium around 50,000.

"Any tourist visiting Liverpool area that isn't affiliated with a club will go to a game at Anfield" and find that they're playing at Brighton.

But, hang on, if you really want to see a game there's another top flight club right next to the cruise liner, there in that big fuckin' stadium there. And they're playing Chelsea. Would you like to go?

James, if this stadium looks the part and Everton can get a professional PR company in instead of Boys Pen Bill's mincing mates from Pantoland, then plenty of tourists will visit Bramley-Moore.

If the end product is world class along with its surroundings it will be a massive draw. Having a glass of beer outside a bar overlooking the estuary on a nice day. The stadium a hundred meters away. Easy public transport to and from town .

Maybe, just maybe, I'm biased but If I was a tourist I know where I'd rather go.

Plenty of cruise liners arrive in Liverpool these days. It's all about timing which team is at home when they arrive.

Should be an option on every cruise liner that docks near to match days. If marketed professionally, those punters are there for the taking.

On top of the visitors, there's also three big universities in the city. I know when I went to uni, I went and watched local sides, but then again it was only a tenner.

As for the work starting, take a drive past Costco and you'll see all the work started already on the next phase of Liverpool Waters. We're in the third phase, the one after this.

I personally will pay for your flight to Switzerland and a visit to the Dignitas clinic. How depressed can you be?

This stadium will be a game-changer so just say something positive for a change.

Having said this... don't as your posts make my whole family laugh out loud!

http://www.liverpoolwaters.co.uk/the-project/bramley-moore-dock/#statistics

Look at the Liverpool Waters plans. As far as I can see, transport links involves road restructure and more buses.

I'm just back from this afternoon's workshop with Dan Meis. From his presentation it was clear the stadium layout will be north - south. Although that creates a tight fit at the north end, the site is just about big enough to accommodate it.

There were predictably plenty of questions and comments about capacity. Meis repeated his point about the final 10,000 seats being the dearest to build while generating the least amount of revenue and reiterated his view that it will be better for the club to have a stadium sold out at every fixture than one with a larger capacity which the club struggles to fill. He clearly understood, however, that the majority of fans would like a stadium nearer to 60,000 than 50,000.

In answer to a question he said they had looked at a retractable roof but the cost is prohibitive: it would add 𧶀m. The rake of the stands would afford great sight lines, much better than most new stadia. There were plenty of great ideas floating around about making the concourses inside and outside the stadium atmospheric.

Overall I came away feeling more confident this thing will happen and that it will be great.

This obsession with "it must be 60,000", or "it must be bigger than Chelsea's"...when the priority should be what is best for us. In some ways, the obsession with size demonstrates that we still can't measure ourselves except by others.

I'd far prefer to have a fierce, intimidating, modern and superb quality 50,000 stadium than worrying about an extra 10,000 seats that might or might be filled (and there's nothing in our history to suggest that we'd consistently fill 60,000).

Link

Juventus having a small stadium is constantly discussed in the press in Italy as being a massive problem, and part of a larger issue with the other Italian clubs not being competitive when it comes to stadium capacity. Bad example to use. And there have been discussions with their stadium architect to see how they can expand the capacity by up to 20,000 in order to compete financially.

I am so happy I amuse you. It's obvious you have never been near the proposed stadium site. I would love to be moving out of Goodison Park full of joy and positivity but this is Everton FC we are talking about.

We are nearly 2 years down the line on this new stadium saga and we still don't have any real proof it will happen. There are far more cons than pros at the moment. We don't yet have planning permission to build on the site yet so how can we all jump the gun so readily??

I want this to happen as much as anyone else but years of being lied to and let down by the club has toughened me up and made me less trusting... If it happens Brilliant – but there are still too many pitfalls to overcome before I get my hopes up.

Can anyone see this job being completed within the next 4 years? With each passing month and each passing forum, it appears it won't be. I really do hope I am completely wrong.

Dermot Byrne (#86),

Tony Marsh... do some research on the future... Peel etc in North Liverpool. Then try some frigging balance for once, you miserable sod!

Juventus moved to a smaller stadium because they couldn't fill an excessively large one. And I don't believe it's purely coincidence that they have coincided massive success with a full stadium and the atmosphere of such a stadium, versus a half full Stadio Delle Alpi.

Juventus have now won the title six times in a row. They're 33 times Italian champions. They're one of the biggest teams in the world. They are based in a city that has roughly double the population of Liverpool. And they are just now, based on developing need, investigating expanding their capacity to 60k.

...and we're talking about how it would be in some way unambitious for us to not build to 60k immediately?

Not that I suggest a 40k capacity. But a modern 50k is a big stadium, absolutely acceptable for our needs as a club, and can be built with scope for expansion.

More to the point, base the decision on genuine need. On the likelihood of a consistent 90% filled capacity. On the balance between cost and revenue and accessibility to fans. Not on "we need 60k because Liverpool have 58k".

I'm not kicking up a stink about this. I just hope the United Utilities site won't either!

"I am going to apply now to be one of the first to have my ashes buried behind one of the goals."

Unless Sam Allardyce's football gets you first!

I worry you may spontaneously combust in rage if you have to endure much more at his hands.

Still, looking on the bright side, if the worst does happen your ashes will be immediately scattered in your preferred seat at Goodison Park!

Or...are you more likely to experience death by ennui and utter boredom by what you are watching these days, Dave?

How does that ditty go again?

"Always look on the bright side of life!" Whistle-whistle...

Seriously though, the housing development which went up in Fazakerley in the mid '90's hasn't had any problems with the United Utilities site over the road and the waste incinerator next door.

The old Stadium was huge, built for athletics and was miles outside Turin, it had massive transport issues.

One of the great white elephants of club football.

Everton are doing none of the above, it is massively incumbent upon the club to build an experience which serves both the regular match-goer and the extra revenue out there attracting new and extra customers.

The whole concept has to be bold, forward thinking, brave and hi-tech. Otherwise truly what is the point of leaving the old lady?

An experience to serve the regular match goer and to attract new and extra customers. Bold, forward-thinking, brave and hi-tech approach.

And 50k, 55k or 60k is only one, and not the most important, of all those things. And in my gut, I think an over-ambitious 60-65k would be a worse experience, and serve all those needs worse, than a high quality and full capacity 50-55k.

Why must anyone stand? Would you stand at the theatre? All is fine until alcohol and dissent arrive. People behave in a more civilised and less confrontational way when seated. In fact, I believe that those standing in seated areas should be removed and banned. I cannot bear it when, the moment we cross the halfway line, everyone stands.

I guess Allardyce has cut down this activity, though.

I will admit to being a little biased in my argument. I was injured in a crush many years ago when, quite simply, too many people who were not fit to be allowed out on their own had too much drink. I would not wish that experience on my grandchildren.

What are the advantages of standing other than squeezing more people in and pandering to a macho culture?

Meis is saying on the capacity he isn't bothered about other sizes at all but our feedback is pushing it nearer 60k than 50k. I'd still like 61,878.

Goodison is so quiet these days, unless we the supporters make the atmosphere, you could have 100,000 and it still be rubbish.

Of course that's in part due to our shitty team, but looking ahead it's about us making a lot of noise regardless of how many people fit in the ground.

What makes you sure a 55k will have an electric atmosphere that somehow 65k will be a graveyard? Show some ambition – we are Everton... world's greatest club, and I for one want to aim for the top.

Even in my work life standing in meetings, I have a standing desk & it gives more energy and would generate a better atmosphere. Question how to make it safe & viable in 21st century.

My email response, which I sent by clicking on the link – I have not mis-spelt anything in the address – was as follows earlier tonight:-

service.desk@evertonfc.com

Dear Sirs,

Re: Season Ticket renewal – Membership number XXXXXXX (my real one was supplied)

Please note that while Sam Allardyce purports to be manager of my football club, Hell would freeze over before I renew my season ticket, and travel a round trip of 300+ miles every other week to watch turgidity in the extreme led by that self-aggrandising fraudster.

I assume by the ever increasing methods of contacting those season ticket holders that I personally know that sales are not progressing like previous seasons. And do not think that replacing him with David Moyes, as apparently Keith Harris wants to do, will placate anyone at all.

Remove Messrs Walsh, Allardyce, Lee and Shakespeare with the utmost alacrity, put Unsy in temporary charge again – at least for this weekend where you can guarantee fire and brimstone against our self-exalted neighbours – and a win this weekend, coupled with the disappearance of Allardyce et al would guarantee season tickets being sold out again.

I don't expect any valid reply to this, but if a human being does read it, it is not too late to act. Please also pass on best wishes to Bill Kenwright if he is as ill as I am led to believe.

Regards,

Ex-season ticket holder Park End 2

Keith Harrison
North West Cumbria.

The reply I got from mailmaster – almost immediately, to be fair was :-

Your message to service.desk@evertonfc.com couldn't be delivered.

service.desk wasn't found at evertonfc.com.

So even the Peoples Club are false addressing me. Sums up the whole clusterfuck.

Saturday with it's stupid O'Clock kick off time and our current team's lack of spirit will see Goodison a lot quieter than it should be and as the Echo reliably and almost gleefully informs us, it's the biggest game of our season, whilst it's not even our opponents biggest game of the week. Sad times that have to be changed by somebody – how long must we wait?

The Merseyrail line from Southport to Hunts Cross via Sandhills, Moorfields and Central runs parallel to the river and goes past Bramley-Moore Dock. This line links South Liverpool with the North end via the city centre.

Merseytravel are considering a station in the Bramley-Moore, Titanic Hotel area but even if that doesn't happen Sandhills is only just over half-a-mile away.

I live in Huyton, I have a car but go to Goodison by train to town and then the 919 football bus. Bramley-Moore Dock will be even easier to get to.

I think football moves in cycles and I am quietly confident (without any real evidence) that we will start improving from now on and happier times are not far away for us Blues. A lot of hope attached to that, mainly for the young fans, not only in my own family, but for young Evertonians wherever they are.

Little apples will grow again, just hope I see some of it, but it will happen, I'm very confident of that. It was a long time from 1970 to 1984 but the good times came back, and how sweeter they were after the famine we all had to endure.

Juve's new stadium was built inside the older one, Stadio delle Alpi. It is the same site.

Might dig a little deeper on that. Very interesting study. I guess if its on half the site the parking must have improved, as this was one of the major bugbears.

In many ways, I would like a 60k+ capacity stadium, but am happy to leave the outcome to the judgement of Meis and Co. There is a strong argument in favour of a full stadium, not least in terms of the impact of banks of empty seats on players.

And while Allardyce is here, I won't renew – I'll go watch my lad play Rugby. I do hope we get a new stadium, with a team to make us all proud. Not holding my breath though.

The site is restricted for a North - South stadium. The ideal but not essential. Goodison isn't quite and Anfield less so. The high, steep stands would limit the light problem with a E/W stadium.

If we got Bramley-Moore Dock for 㿅m, how much would it have cost to get a lease on the adjacent, southern dock? Maybe a lot since it would cut into Peel's potential developments, maybe not.

Either way we are looking at a North - South stadium around 55,000 capacity.

That stadium will look to reference Goodison in its internal structure, rather than externally. I think that the idea of 1,878 seats transposed to the home wall is cute, but I'd sooner sit on the seats of the Allianz I visited last week. My arse isn't getting thinner.

The job of architects is to make virtue of necessity. All four sides of the ground have to be different. They will be.

On other matters, we still don't know about vehicle traffic management. A late Saturday KO coinciding with an Arena concert could prove a challenge to anyone going south.

Trains on the Northern line are 12 an hour in each direction. Should be enough, especially if they can be six car. It appears to me that the busiest are on the Southport line so that might be a priority. Another station south of Sandhills might help to ease congestion.

How about a recreation of a small part of the Overhead? James St to Sandhills via Bramley Moore Dock, light rail? Would take Wirral fans off the main rail. Munich CC spent 𧶀m on rail station improvements when the Allianz was built.

I remember when the Albert Dock was first done up. Although I was in my early 20s I didn't know where it was. Ditto until very recently for lots of people re. Bramley Moore Dock. I do understand that the area is a bit out on a limb at the moment, but it won't be in 10 or so years.

Regarding public transport Bill Watson (#178), yes the transport problems can be overcome but we need to recognise that not everybody will be able to get on a train. Space for car parking should not be a problem given the amount of dereliction.

The big issue for me are buses. Whereas County Road is a main thoroughfare in and out of the city and is served by both Arriva and Stagecoach, there is currently not one bus route that goes along the Dock Road. Until the area is repopulated to necessitate a 7-day-per-week demand, there will need to be special buses from lots of points including several places in the city centre perhaps. I would look at using the Rotunda as a pick up point for a free bus for those who can catch an existing bus along Stanley Road, Walton Road and Great Homer Street.

I think the trick with the ferries could be a pre-match cruise picking up both sides of the river. Even if a ferry terminal could not be built, they could lay on a couple of double-decker buses from the Pier Head.

Well he will have a job to top this being built right now.

http://new-stadium.tottenhamhotspur.com/

The new Spurs stadium looks genuinely world class.

1. How big is the pitch?

2. What is planned for the area between the stadium and the Dock Road?

Over the past 20 or so years I have watched the Melbourne Docklands transformed from this:

Arial History Melbourne Docklands - Before

to this:

">Arial History Melbourne Docklands - After

If the Melbourne example is anything to go by, the people of Liverpool will benefit greatly from the new jobs and business opportunities created.

For these reasons, I believe we should trust the judgement of both Farhad Moshiri and Dan Meis to get this right and get behind them both 100%.

I don't want to be negative in regards to our new stadium, but it's just so difficult not to be.

I've had the privilege to project manage multiple million dollar construction projects over the last few years and, in every case, the financing is in place before the project gets off the ground. Where does that leave us, as regards the true timeframe?

On a lighter note, maybe it's a good thing we haven't started construction just yet. With the performances on the field this season, we fans might have requested installing the seats facing away from the playing field!

I'm in Dubai and its still growing; the north docks would be one small development here – I'm also receiving calls and emails to 'register' for potential commercial/residential property in the North Dock area in anticipation of development.

I would love to see some form of DLR system put into to loop the north docks to south docks with a spit to James street to connect to Merseyrail, a la Dubai Metro which is a fantastic system – automated, no drivers/conductors, and reliable! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_Metro

Like you, Laurie, I'm 100% behind this.

Let's hope it all goes to plan and we can regain our place at the top table.

COYB

The space between the stadium and the dock road wall is indicated as a fan zone. This is much bigger than that which we have at the moment and would appear to be prime space for other money-making developments.

Yes, the area needs regeneration and major investment – isn't that the point? Of course they could knock down St George's Hall and build it there – would that be better?

But public transport is an issue. Yep, Sandhills isn't too far and there's the very good potential of a station at Vauxhall that Joe Anderson has spoken about, which will be akin to walking from County Road to Goodison Road. But no buses.

It is okay walking to/from town – many people walk to Goodison now. The emergence of Liverpool Waters etc will in time develop and link this to town. But I still think there should be land purchased, maybe by the council in partnership with the club, to build a car park off the Dock Road.

I too posted over my concerns about getting 50,000 in and out of Bramley-Moore Dock. I go by car to the game and park in Alsop school on Queens drive costs ٥. It is then about a 10-15 minute walk to Goodison.

But if no car park facilities are available then I cant see how we get 50,000 on public transport, given there is no space for a park-and-ride area within the City.

From what I can figure out, the width of the site is the major constraining factor on the stadium configuration.

As the pitch will run North to South, it is no surprise that they have kept the length of the pitch the same as Goodison. It also seems to be the reason that the North end stand is the smallest.

Regarding the fan zone and the car parking issue, I still haven't seen any answer as to whether or not the dock is going to be completely filled in. If the dock is 9 metres deep that's about 420,000 cubic metres – that is a lot of ground fill!

In previous posts I have suggested they might drain the dock, tank the walls and convert it to an underground car park. Has anyone who has been to the meetings asked this question?

You brought family into your post, as anyone could for dewy impact. Given the variation in Everton kick-off times, I doubt there is cause and effect in attendance of games and the family event mentioned.

Here's something as wrought as your initial post @176:- At a difficult time for all supporters, I am fed up to the back teeth of some using most threads, including this one which concerns a stadium that offers at least hope of a brighter future, as an opportunity for relentless "I'm withdrawing my support" posturing.

The need for some people to state in swaggering and/or tearful public posts why they are in a variety of ways 'not supporting Everton anymore' escapes me.

Every gasping and confused quanta of my being screams – in the name of fuck, why don't you just go?

Irrespective, apart from the stadium, which as stated, I really hope happens, we – as in all of us – pay good money to be entertained. If I go to see a tribute band at a concert, I expect them not to be as good as the original (possible exception Aussie Pink Floyd). I do, however, expect them to be competent, and trying their hardest, i.e. putting the effort in.

Man City were tremendous on Saturday, but did we get into their faces? Were there any bookings? Did all our boys break sweat, or should they have been sitting with me admiring a masterful team instead of doing that on the pitch?

Under the present manager, this for me, isn't happening. And if I choose to put that on every thread on here, that's my choice – or the mods. If a brighter future to you is a world class stadium with a shite team and fraudulent manager, well, that's your choice.

I will always support Everton, but until something changes I won't be there to see them every week. Now, where's the Kleenex?

Anyway, can we back away from getting personal guys? We're all blues, we all want the blues to be the best, and we're all gutted about how things are going.

Transport links to the new stadium are a red herring guys. Don't worry about it. As things stand the stations aren't really any further than Goodison and plans are afoot for the Liverpool Waters project, including proposed new stations (on the Northern Line), metro service (appears very unlikely to me though).

I like the underground parking idea though. Is it Ajax that have parking under their stadium?

Standing up when we cross the halfway line.

Those were the days.

The previous information disclosed on TW and media about the North Docks regeneration plans have mentioned about a radical restructure including road, rail and possible new ferry links. This is positive not concrete hope but the design issue looks good.

A long way to go, and a ray of hope in the worst season in decades.

Not sure on the huge TV that Meis is so keen on but, apart from that, it looks like a good start from people who seem to know what they are doing. I'm looking forward to seeing what the stadium will look like from the water and a scale model that others have also mentioned in previous comments.

Everton have a habit of letting people down, but I'll allow myself to get a bit excited about this one! I know, I know...

I really don't mean to labour this point but I'm genuinely interested in this part of the development, i.e. the transport infrastructure for this area.

Is this car park at Princes Dock almost empty of cars on a Saturday afternoon or is it mostly full with shoppers or visitors at present? I wonder how many spaces available after say... midday, 1 o'clock?

I suspect that most fans travelling from the north side, Bootle, Crosby etc and may well use use Sandhills as it's direct (I'm also thinking could there be anywhere along that route to incorporate a park & ride?)

There was a good point made earlier about using the Rotunda as a staging point for transfers to Bramley-Moore Dock.

Ideally, a Parkway station could be built in the Vauxhall area and, I suppose, if there's a will, there's a way. If there's money to be made there's always a way! A la Gillespie Road Tube station aka Arsenal Tube Station.

The Ferry is interesting... I did read somewhere that there was a some plan to run a Ferry to the Dock from Birkenhead.

I remember seeing some footage about a football barge that travels along the canal to Old Trafford on match days... now there's a relaxing trip to the docks on a sunny day.

Like I said... if there's money in it.

The Docklands in Melbourne is just about the best stroll anyone can take after a game of football. Of course, it's not just football in that sport mad city but the bars alongside the river are beautiful, as are the beers and food they sell.

There was a time in the eighties when there were a few fun pubs around the Bramley-Moore end of town so, if the right people can put some decent bars and restaurants along the way to the new stadium, then it won't be just about the football but a good night out too and bring back some atmosphere to the area.

The sunshine does help in Melbourne though!

Dan Meiss was asked about the feasibility of a ferry link and he liked the idea but said it would be difficult because of the height of the dock wall.

To me, trains seem the commonsense way to get to Bramley-Moore from both the North and South ends,The Wirral, the Ellesmere Port and Chester Merseyrail links and other points that terminate at Lime Street.

Trains to and from Southport, Ormskirk, Kirkby and Hunts Cross all pass through Sandhills and trains from The Wirral go via Mooorfields where a simple changeover gets you the one stop to Sandhills.

From Lime Street Station you can either change at the underground at Central or walk over to Central and get a direct train. They all go to Sandhills. On the return trip trains stop at both Lime Street and Central.

Even if there's no Park and Ride, parking is relatively easy at many suburban stations. Far less hassle than trying to park near a football ground.

I think we'll eventually see a new stadium station between Sandhills and Moorfields but, even without that, Sandhills is only a short distance away (0.6 of a mile).

As soon as the weather picks up, I may take a ride out there to see how long the walk actually takes!

Everyone sitting inside would be reminded on a regular basis who the city really belonged to. Looking out from the ‘blue wall' to see Moshiri's Liver Building bathed in royal blue on match days!!

This Merseyrail link demonstrates how easy Sandhills Station is to get to from most parts of Greater Merseyside and beyond.

Anthony (#224) – I think Meiss said the North Stand (home end) may have a part glass wall with views out to the city centre.

I agree but having one station when travelling there is all good and well as arrive times for fans are staggered. It's the return that's the problem when thousands will be arriving at Sandhills, all at the same time meaning huge queues and a long wait for boarding trains. Hence a good idea for other platforms in Vauxhall area.

Regarding the ferry, yes I did consider that and I suspect the wall couldn't be interfered with as probably listed.

This is a shame as it would be a great way to arrive. However I'm sure the idea can be revisited and some type of landing stage built nearby.

Sorry, getting my North and South mixed up. I meant the home end South stand.

Stephen (#226)

Yes, good point about after-match congestion. There's obviously a lot of logistical planning that needs to be done.

...and David (#227).

What I valued more than anything else was his candour and the fact that he wouldn't be cowed by fans' demands for increasing the capacity to 60k. His responses were reasoned, logical and based upon expertise and experience.

It was refreshing for the club for once, to have someone speaking with authority, transparency and eloquence. After listening to him today it is abundantly evident that the design elements of the project are at fairly advanced stage, let's hope those who have stewardship of the finances at the club – don't let us down – again!

I'm the world's biggest sceptic, but admit to being excited about the prospect of us getting an iconic stadium on the Banks of the Royal Blue Mersey.

Jamie (#218). I laughed like mad.

But do agree with Craig Walker: "This is the one remaining hope for us as a football club. Take away any optimism over a new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock and we have nothing left but a proud history."

I think we need to get away from the idea that bigger is better. The stadium needs to fit us and it is clear it is an atmosphere not capacity led design. Capacity does not equal atmosphere. The best atmosphere Goodison has seen in the last 25 years was against Wimbledon. And the Park End didn't exist.

Dan has made it quite clear that being tight to the pitch and selling out every week is more important than having 200 seats more than Liverpool. I for one am sold on the idea of a slightly smaller capacity but with everything else in place. I still think it will be circa 55,000.

It wouldn't be difficult to close off an upper tier or two for less attractive games in the cups, for example.

I find it odd that the Club are only thinking about the here and now – we are pulling in 40,000 in an old stadium with 5,000 obstructed view seats, playing terrible football and without a trophy in nigh on quarter of a century.

Any improvement in that and crowds will jump again plus the new stadium effect. Very short term and realistically very hard and expensive to extend later, but once a corner shopkeeper, always a corner shopkeeper. I really should not be surprised!

Yes, that's not too bad at all. What I was trying to point out was that, if Sandhills becomes the most popular means of transport by many of the fans, then trying to get on a train when everyone arrives back there at the same time becomes problematic and there will be a lengthy wait to board.

I'm not sure what the service times are for a Saturday afternoon/evening service (or even a Tuesday night for that matter) but I would hope that extra train services would be put on to cope with the demand... but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Excellent. That's what I was hoping to hear.

Do you know where I can find further info as all I can find is improved roads?

One thing I do know is the atmosphere and location will be more important than 5,000 people here and there. In the end, does the attendance at Old Trafford make headlines and are Chelsea or Tottenham trying to beat their capacity to make a statement? No. They are building for their own needs. They have the confidence to do that.

So maybe our intuitive desire to hit 60,000 is not the most important thing and we could fall into the trap of being led by the RS even in designing OUR stadium. Now that would be sad.

We need to be more sophisticated in our thinking perhaps?

There is but I can't put my hands on it I'm afraid at the moment.

Gavin (#239),

It is bigger and steeper than Dortmund's and safe standing (rail seating) v seating has no impact on capacity, it is just more expensive to do the former.

Dermot (#240),

Dan made it crystal clear that he is not remotely interested in capacity of other clubs. His ideas are based around what is right for Everton, nothing else.

Thanks to all the people who went to the workshops, and reported back on here, in almost unfailingly glowing tones. Let not this pivotal moment in our history slip, or that's what we just might be consigned to.

(Sneaks off to renew ST...)

Thanks for the info. That's good to know. I've seen figures of 25,000 attributed to Dortmund's Great yellow wall so 12 to 15,000 didn't seem that impressive.

"If you build it, they will come!!!" then just sit back and wait for the stampede!

I'm not referring to transport links, but pedestrian access. At the end of a match, I assume the whole crowd will have to exit East onto the Dock Road, whereas most stadiums allow egress around the whole complex. To compound matters, I assume the wall between the site and the Dock Road is listed or has some other heritage protection so cannot be demolished. It sounds a bit tight.

2. Transport to and from will be sorted with new rail station, park and ride, busses and additional ferries, walk ways.

3. This is going to be a new lifestyle experience on match days. People will be going earlier, people will be staying longer. The Fanzone, walk ways back to the city, bars and restaurants on the way will break up the 20- to 30-minute walk to Pier Head, Liver Building, Park and Walk, Lime Street etc.

4. Iconic brick cathedral vision beamed across the globe millions of times.

5. This will allow us not only to own the City, Liver Building HQ to boot, it will also be there for every child on The Wirral to see a great stadium and fall in love with our great club, every day and every night, when lit up.

6. New projects from EitC will take advantage of the redevelopment projects in the area and city.

7. For the doubters, things are stacked in our favour: Peel needing to convert their land banks; LCC gets income; LCC sees the regeneration of North Liverpool given a kick start; Moshiri plus his mates diving in to invest in the property surge of the new revitalised waterfront – too many vested interests for this not to be a slam-dunk.

I am hopeful, excited and supportive of everything our great club is doing. I mean everything. I am a supporter – not a moaning dick.

"Is your Wi-Fi working, Keith, this isn't 4G, and you haven't renewed yet. Just wanted to sign you up before I go back to Rugby League."

How could I refuse, even when he said I couldn't use my Newcastle voucher as a ٣ discount off it?

Your sausage is safe.

">Car Parking at Liverpool Waters

This also being where thousands stay in the ground after games for the free concerts put on in the huge bars under the stands. The fans are also mixed freely, both inside and outside the stadium. This could be a potential source of trouble, especially considering last night's shenanigans, if all fans are essentially 'herded' the same way. I appreciate this happens now to an extent at Goodison, but the away supporters buses are nearby, which may not be the case with the new stadium.

Just sayin...

Link

The angle is too steep for current regulations and also Meis himself said they angle will need to be more shallow to actually allow for possible future standing areas.

Everton had towering double-decker stands on all four sides (the only club in England to have four sides like this). Liverpool was single-tier on all sides, although almost half the fans were concentrated behind one goal, giving it a unique asymmetric atmosphere. Everton's own unique asymmetry was provided by the church jutting into one corner of the ground.

The double-decker stands meant Everton had a smaller stadium ‘footprint', with more fans closer to the action. This point is demonstrated clearly in Dan Meis's diagrammatic section showing the outline of the new Bramley-Moore Main Stand superimposed on the present Main Stand at Goodison Park.

While Dan Meis argues rightly that fans should be as close as possible to the action, he seems to have given a greater priority to all fans being able to see each other, as in a standard single-tier Arena ‘bowl', without overhangs. Average distances from the pitch (for a given capacity), while rightly minimised at the front, are therefore little different from the norm in any other single-tier stadium (e.g. Anfield, Southampton, Leicester), and considerably greater than in stadiums with overlapping tiers such as Goodison Park, Cardiff National Stadium or the Nou Camp in Barcelona. The Cardiff stadium, in particular, is renowned for its atmosphere, and holds 74,000 in multi-tiers on a very tight city-centre footprint.

At the beginning of the Premier League, the ‘gold standard' for seating capacity was 40,000. Old Trafford, for example, was designed for 44,000. The equivalent gold standard is now 60,000, and this is being actively pursued by all the clubs in the current Top 6. This ‘gold standard' may well rise further in the future, as – we hope – will Everton's expectations.

I agree that to achieve ‘first-class' seating in all parts of the ground, a capacity of less than 55,000 may be the optimum (e.g. new ‘ideal' stadiums for Juventus, Roma, Shakhtar Donetsk, etc), but it is notable that, when the architect recommended 56,000 for Spurs, he was over-ruled by his Chairman, who said that they had to match their immediate competitors – and a further 5,000 seats were added.

For Everton, my own recommendation would be for 52,000 immediately, with two overhanging 10,000-seat upper stands (West and East ‘top balconies') to be allowed for and added when required, giving an ultimate capacity of 72,000.

That seems to make sense. LFC spent 𧴜m on an additional 8,000 seats. Seems to reinforce his oft-qouted remark about the last 10,000 seats being the most expensive.

Its not just about seeing the whole pitch, there's an expectation about the big screens too.

Having seen Dan Meis's preliminary sections, I can't see any technical reason why one or more long-term phases can't be allowed for (e.g. 'top balconies' on each side, each with an independent structure, services and access) – those possibilities would become part of every Evertonians' ultimate dream.

Me and our kid, me 11 him 8, used to get in to Gladwys St as soon as the gates opened, mid-60s. Before the walls were raised for the World Cup we'd get a spec at the front. We could both see. After that he couldn't. We'd go halfway up the terrace at a point were the horizontal and vertical barriers crossed. He'd sit on the crossover point and I'd stand in front of him.

That solved the problem. We couldn't be arsed bringing milk crates with us.

Last month at Stoke I could see little of the game. Two seats in front of me were occupied by lads who were well over six foot. I'm 5'11". There aren't that many small kids at away games. I have seen them lifted by parents and standing on the seats trying to see.

Can't see any way that safe-standing would solve these problems. Imagine buying your season ticket and finding yourself behind somebody six inches or more taller.

Adding just 2-4 metres to the distance to the front row can have a dramatic effect on this and add sufficient space for future capacity at the rear.

From the designs thus far the tv screen end (it will be the biggest tv in the country like I says sarcastically) why can this not be a double decker stand? It is shown on the Goodison footprint that it is the same size as the Gwladys Street so what about a modern double decker Gwladys Street opposite the new 'blue wall'?

Re the capacity great point Steve (256). While he's single minded It's clear the club have given him a low 50k's brief. I'll not be moved that it's nothing to do with size envy it's about being ambitious and aspiring to be the best. Low 50's smacks of a small-time mentality and short-termism.

Yet with only one day left to renew season tickets for 2018-19, sales are ahead of last season's record-breaking figure.

Everton Season Ticket members have until midnight on Friday to renew and guarantee their seat for the 2018-19 season.

Fans who do not renew before the deadline will not only lose their seat but could miss out on a 2018-19 season ticket altogether, with thousands of Evertonians on a waiting list to become new Season Ticket Members for next season.

What part of a new ground, possible additional fans gained and a new manager in charge, are the club missing.

If we can get record sales with the shite this season and thousands on waiting list, there will be an even bigger demand for the new stadium.

Wake up and smell the coffee and forget about 50k, it needs to be closer to 60k, if this is the case now in regards to season ticket sales.

Okay, Newcastle and West Ham don't pose a threat to the now innate hierarchy but by coincidence those with the largest capacities tend to win the most trophies and it'll get better/worse, depending on your personal take on the way monies are dispersed courtesy of TV, the Premier League and UEFA. Liverpool buck the trend this season with 54k as their sell-out figure.

Happily though, we seem to have an owner/board with sufficient confidence to plan to buck this trend for years and years to come by merely matching the Liverpool capacity as of now, at best, yet still achieve consistent qualification for the Champions League as a minimum, and all this whilst being renowned, if we're even known at all, for being embarrassingly inept in any of our rare ventures into Europe. We pay top six salaries for sure, especially to a manager, but only every has-been or never-will-be sees us a lucrative destination, and that's the Kenwright legacy.

I don't know what the Latin is for "Only The Bog Standard Is Good Enough" but maybe that deserves to be our 21st century motto.

"Only Bog Standard is Good Enough" = 'palus est non satis vexillum'

"Only The Bog Standard Is Good Enough" = 'satis est modo vexillum palus obducat'

One way to increase capacity would be with rail seating. When the topic of safe standing/rail seating came up, this seemed to be glossed over. Quote ratio is 1:1, rail seats are more expensive, nothing is gained. I know the legislation doesn't allow it at the moment, but in four year's time, it probably will.

Back to the ratio. Even on the plans 1:1 was an assumption. With 2 rows of steps, between each row of seats, the ratio is 1:1.8. Even the maximum rake angle can be increased. Celtics safe standing area has a rake of over 29° in the rear rows. The tread depth (700mm) was too small to allow two rows of steps.

The initial cost of the rail seats is about 30% Higher than the conventional seats. Not a lot in a £Â½ Billion budget. Every 5,000 seats would give standing room for 9000. I hope the club look into this Further before deciding on the final plans.

And thanks to Mr Cadman too (#272). He raises a very important point regarding ground capacity vis-a-vis a putative running track that needs an explanation from the club and/or Joe Anderson as far as I'm concerned, to sustain the integrity on which Bramley-Moore Dock was in the first place put forward to Evertonians as our salvation by way of mega-capacity....... with a running track?

It advised me that once I registered, the club would then call me in mid April to ‘secure my seat'. It wasn't vague about it being subject to availability or anything. I thought it was a bit strange to do this if we already have thousands waiting in a queue as I'm not currently on any waiting list.

We're lapping it up, yet not long ago he was tweeting hints about a 60k capacity. Even outlining that it's very difficult to expand once built seems short-sighted..

I'm really excited by the plans, but I've got to say Dan is a fantastic salesman and knows how to work his audience!

As if! Hmmm.

There is no waiting list.

Bayern Munich built the Allianz Arena with a capacity of 66k and almost instantly regretted this decision. They have used every corner and trick to get it up to 75k without doing major structural work, but to go any higher would be a very expensive move.

Now we are no Bayern Munich, but some smaller German teams are looking to expand as well. FC Köln is a team that gets relegated every odd season over the past 20 years. They have a stadium with a capacity of around 50k and are looking to expand or build a new stadium with at least 75k capacity. And they are not the only team.

Ticket prices in Germany are lower than in the Premier League. While Bayern Munich is an absolute financial powerhouse, FC Köln is not.

How can it be that for those teams, it makes sense to go (far) beyond 60k, but for Everton, it doesn't? I cannot believe that it is solely due to standing areas as both teams have played in Europe and need to install seats for those games.

I've said it before on these pages, but for not much more than the cost of the new Wembley, the Germans built six new stadiums and refurbished two more. Something about the cost of British steel I think, which is why I'm confused by all of this, considering Usmanov, is one of Moshiri's biggest friends.

Hopefully just more money to be made when he sells us, because if one of your best mates owns a lot of steel, then surely you should be able to make a shiny new stadium, for a steal?

They've got the Jay-Z and Beyoncé concert there too. This is something we need to tap into. How can we ensure that the biggest pop acts use our stadium instead of the Echo Arena, or skip Liverpool altogether?

The Echo Arena is owned by LCC. Now our stadium will be built on land owned by Peel. Are Peel not interested in owning a concert venue for these pop acts as part of the Liverpool Waters scheme? Can they themselves not be persuaded to invest in the stadium, and so ease some of the financial concerns?

I see Liverpool fans or reps were up looking at it recently. It generates a great atmosphere. Maybe it's something to look into when we actually have something to shout about.

Neat and tidy but nothing exceptional, totally agree. But also it has a better atmosphere than almost every new 40k+ ground I visited over the last ten or fifteen years. Also, I can get a beer within one or two minutes invariably. It is very efficient.

For me, I want a stadium that looks exceptional on the outside (Cologne's stadium does not, it is not an example in that regard) but has a great and intimidating atmosphere on the inside.

Yes, Cologne's stadium only holds 50k/46k. And they, as a team that at best can be considered mid-table (they're in a relegation spot right now) are looking for a much bigger stadium. Why would they want that if those extra seats cost a lot of money and hold little revenue?

According to you, what is wrong with having limited corner sections? Goodison has limited corner sections as well...

I also stood at the back of the stadium, on little concourse at the side, (no ticket) and this was also good, but behind the goal was definitely better, because with it being so steep, the noise stays in the ground, which is what you should want if atmosphere is important?

The Germans, modelled their new stadiums on the old English grounds, getting the fans close to the pitch, which surely gives the home team a better advantage? And the English started building shite round stadiums, that do absolutely nothing to create a real atmosphere!

Same with the football, English clubs dominated by playing high intensity, non stop football, that keeps the crowd involved, and is something your opponent hates, and is now called gengapress I think?

An old phenomenon with a new name, but it creates so much atmosphere on the terraces, and makes people want to go the game.just imagine how big the waiting list for season tickets would be like, if Everton's present team now, could start working as hard as our last great team, which has got to be the most important thing for any serious football club? Do it Out on the pitch, and the rest will take care of itself!

I wasn't really being critical of the Cologne stadium, but merely trying to explain its relatively low cost in relation to ours and other British stadia costs.

Of course there is nothing wrong with partial or empty corner sections per se, just referring to the relative inefficient use of space etc, plus the rather awkward views they offer if those straight stands continue parallel to the pitch right into the corner. In the Cologne case the reasoning was simply to minimise costs, as cost per seat can be excessive in these structurally more complex areas.

Trust the man to get it designed and build the fucking thing!

Consultations mean delays, get it built and stop arseing about, the longer we're at Goodison the longer we will stagnate.

Fact is, the architect has been engaged for years now, and this consultation could've probably took place at almost any point in that time. So why now? I think the loss of the Commonwealth games bid, and the resultant financial shortfalls has led to a rejigging of the process. So why not take the opportunity to understand the design ethos that will influence the make-up of our new home?

Even if it was built tomorrow it wont get us three points if the team is terrible. That's where our focus needs to be. Whether that means buying new players, changing the manager or coaching staff or just working with what we've got long enough to actually get somewhere.

I don't think a universally unpopular manager playing a universally unpopular style of football represents the best building block to start off with though. So, the first step seems pretty obvious.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for you as an Evertonian and your knowledge around design and technology, having read all of you input on this site for over 10 years.

The thing is this. I have no interest in understanding design ethos, all I'm interested in is a fit for purpose stadium and a flourishing club.

I get the feeling all this consultation process is just another stalling tactic designed to prolong the build.

Maybe I'm just impatient? I'm getting on in years now, smoke to much and drink to much. Just want to see the club progress my friend.

I also think he will now have learned that he needs better for interim than we have had but still think the big days come with the ground.

Insanely optimistic? Probably.

Moshiri is not new to football. He was at Arsenal, with his mate Usmanov. So it's not like he's jumped in thinking he can syphon off some of the TV money and make a few quid.

His plan is surely to buy Everton for a knockdown price, to spend a few quid building a ground, stay a few years as the value soars, then to sell for top dollar.

If he gets the ground right, maintains the club as a top 10 Premier League side (only 3 bottom half finishes since 2004), and football continues to grow at home and abroad (signs are there is a lot of growth in China and America), then Everton's value will grow substantially and he can make a killing.

If he delivers it, I'm sure we'd thank him for his leadership, investment and wish him well for the future.

Intimidate and rattle Citeh as much as possible, by whatever means, and the fans were unstrimental in this. It worked, they won, and we're judging them.

I would swap their problems for ours all day

The list goes on Eric.

He is likely, in the list of possible carpetbaggers, not the worst but he has as much heartfelt, none financial interest as my next door neighbours dog. Which,by the way, is called Shankly.
How rife, just of a matter of interest, and totally unrelated is distemper these days?

There comes a time when money is just a lubricant. I think that Mr Moshiri wants the ride, wants the project.

He likes being No 1 after being a tea boy at Arsenal, I see him as a proud individual who wants his own agenda and his own legacy. He is very mild mannered but he has an iron will .

I think he wants to see his bold plans come to fruition, more than the business of just making a few more million.

He knows it's a good investment and will get a return but I don't think that is th be all and end all.