The 26-year-old, who is something of a free-kick specialist, has been with Hertha since 2014 after joining the Berlin club from Nuremberg and has made over 100 Bundesliga appearances in that time.
Capped by his country at all levels from Under-17, he is in Germany's World Cup squad for this month's World Cup Finals in Russia.
Reader Comments (94)
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1 Posted 12/06/2018 at 18:23:49
2 Posted 12/06/2018 at 18:29:10
3 Posted 12/06/2018 at 18:30:33
Baines will definitely make sure we've got cover at left-back if it's in the Lars Jacobsen mold.
4 Posted 12/06/2018 at 18:51:58
5 Posted 12/06/2018 at 19:15:22
In 81 minutes in the away draw with France, he looked completely composed, won every ball with strong, physical challenges (always on his feet, no slide tackling) and got down the wing beautifully when he had the chance. And he knows what to do when he gets there – the stepover and assist against Bolivia was sweet, and against France he had a nice cross and then calmly chipped Lloris and forced him to tip over the bar.
Defensively he does have a tendency to get a bit tight, and he ball-watches too much, making him vulnerable to people running off his back shoulder, but I can't emphasize enough how quick he is to recover, both in close and over distance – he'll be our fastest player. In fact, he's sometimes too confident in his recovery speed, continuing his run too far up the left when he should stop and go back because the ball isn't coming. He won't always get away with it in the Premier League. And he also needs to work on his first touch. But those are fixable flaws.
I know most folks here want us to drop big bucks on more proven entities like Rose or Shaw or Bertrand or Sessegnon or even this fellow, but I think we may already have our left-back. And I'd rather spend the money someplace else instead of pushing Robinson down the pecking order.
6 Posted 12/06/2018 at 19:19:44
7 Posted 12/06/2018 at 19:24:07
Hector plays for Köln who have just been relegated and would fit into Silvas (apparent) preference for overlapping full backs to allow the wingers to cut inside and offer a goal threat.
8 Posted 12/06/2018 at 19:35:44
The development of Robinson might be why we're being linked with this German left-back and the City U23 left-back, Angelino. We're still going to need two left-backs when Baines leaves in 12 months time.
Buying a player like this instead of spending a fortune on someone like Danny Rose gives Robinson a better chance to fight for a starting place a year down the line.
9 Posted 12/06/2018 at 19:37:54
He's just signed a new five-year contract but I wonder whether that's been done to keep his value up?
10 Posted 12/06/2018 at 19:46:46
11 Posted 12/06/2018 at 19:57:51
I suppose the answer is – they'll develop elsewhere and then we live to regret letting them go.
I still find it hard to believe that, when we had no fit left-back last summer, Koeman spent a shed load of money on other positions and signed Cuco Martina on a free and played him on the left.
12 Posted 12/06/2018 at 20:02:57
So did Daniel Day-Lewis.
13 Posted 12/06/2018 at 20:03:35
Spend the funds on a centre-back if we are looking at the defence. Robinson and Kenny as cover? No-brainer in my opinion.
14 Posted 12/06/2018 at 20:18:51
By the way, anybody who picked France in their World Cup pool should be a bit concerned. Playing at home in front of 60,000 against a USA side averaging about 12 years old, they looked very short of ideas.
15 Posted 12/06/2018 at 20:22:21
16 Posted 12/06/2018 at 20:26:28
17 Posted 12/06/2018 at 20:27:24
Talk about building someone up to fail. This is the same kind of talk we had with Galloway and Garbutt who had a couple of decent games and were the best thing since sliced bread. We still need to buy a new left-back regardless. Baines's legs have gone now. He'll be even slower next season. Even if we didn't buy a left-back and play Robinson, we'd still need to go out and buy a new left-back once Baines's contract runs out in 12 months. That's unless people are saying we should have another rookie from the U23s backing Robinson up. It's putting a lot of pressure a on a kid who had a solid season playing in the bottom half of the Championship.
I would imagine we'll sign someone like this German who's at a good age and won't cost a fortune in today's market. Loan Robinson out for another season, and then have the two fight it out for the shirt once Baines leaves in 12 months.
18 Posted 12/06/2018 at 20:28:04
I don't think we will buy anyone until the new guys have a look at what we have got. Also, I know you are a punting man. It looks to me like the first group games could turn a profit with backing draws in every game.
19 Posted 12/06/2018 at 20:38:43
20 Posted 12/06/2018 at 20:43:53
21 Posted 12/06/2018 at 20:48:00
I've been impressed by Southgate, simply because he's gone with a system which he thinks suits his squad rather than trying to just shoe-horn all his best players onto the pitch, which is what happened repeatedly with the so-called golden generation.
One thing England do possess is genuine pace; with this being so vital in the modern game, I wouldn't rule them out, but then again England always do well in friendlies, so like Antonee Robinson, let's just see how it goes when the serious stuff starts?
22 Posted 12/06/2018 at 21:06:16
23 Posted 12/06/2018 at 21:12:56
Unless Baines can roll back the years, to 2014, then I cant see a starting place for him, other than as a defensive specialist in a big game. His lack of pace undermines the crucial element of the fullbacks in Silvas tactics.
Id prefer to let Leighton go to America and sign Danny Rose and have Robinson as back up. Otherwise, go for someone up and coming (sorry mike but a year or two further down the line than Robinson) and have Baines as backup.
The 2018 vintage Leighton Baines is lacking too much, is too injury prone, and I fear seeing the 2019 vintage. I want to remember Leighton in his Pomp, not watch him in decline.
24 Posted 12/06/2018 at 21:14:52
Because of our excellent relationship with Watford, this could make things interesting, but it could also be journalistic excrement stirring!
He does sound like a player worth pursuing, hopefully not at the expense of Antonee Robinson though... Having said that, I'm not sure if Robinson is ready to step right into the side just yet.
25 Posted 12/06/2018 at 21:41:55
26 Posted 12/06/2018 at 21:47:14
FourFourTwo has an interesting snippet on him from 2017, when it touts him for Arsenal. He's not described as quick, but quick on the break. So perhaps a clever player like Baines in his pomp, getting forwards well without being particularly pacey. It implies that in addition to getting forwards well, that he plays a big part in counter attacks with his accurate passing.
Which reminds me of Jefferson from Estoril and Sporting, both under Silva. He had a great left loot, was great at free-kicks, got forwards well, but was not fast at all. Just a clever player. Perhaps Silva sees a Jefferson in him. Which then raises the question as to whether we would need a new left back if Silva can cope without pace. Perhaps we keep with Baines and look to give Robinson some opportunities?
I'd love to know what someone who watches a lot of Bundesliga and particularly Hertha thinks?
27 Posted 12/06/2018 at 21:52:22
From memory, there's not even one in my time going back to the early 60s but I'm sure someone will correct me. That position and goalkeeper seem never to have been graced by home grown talent since Andy Rankin last played, and that's a bit weird to me.
28 Posted 12/06/2018 at 21:59:59
Ideally, I too hope Antonee Robinson can break into the team as I think he is looking like he can cut it with some polishing that will only come through experience. He needs to get some Premier League game time with us or on loan this season.
29 Posted 12/06/2018 at 22:03:47
30 Posted 12/06/2018 at 22:09:02
31 Posted 12/06/2018 at 22:23:55
32 Posted 12/06/2018 at 22:28:07
33 Posted 12/06/2018 at 23:09:37
I have just been talking to his daughter today.
34 Posted 13/06/2018 at 05:18:27
35 Posted 13/06/2018 at 06:55:28
36 Posted 13/06/2018 at 07:16:03
He did however stand off his man a few times when defending and if I recall Brazil netted their winner from a cross from his side. He was defending the width of the box rather than going out to meet his man. Odd tactics as he did not look the tallest so not likely to head anything away.
We definitely need a good left-back and from what I have seen so far German players generally transition well into the Premier League – even those who are not household names.
Huddersfield's CB was picked up on the cheap and did well, and Brighton had a midfielder who did extremely well.
So this lad maybe good option in an area where we clearly have a gap. Suggests to me that Shaw has found a club. Plattenhardt's arrival would mean clearing the decks with Martina, Garbutt, Galloway needing to be moved on, as Robinson looks as if he could be ready to be blooded next season.
37 Posted 13/06/2018 at 07:16:05
On the subject of them two – it shows what a bad loan can do to a career, who knows what they would have been like if they'd have stayed with our coaching and been Baines understudy for a few years. Robinson could easily go the same way – loans are sometimes a lottery.
Victor – we don't need to be starting 6-7 youngsters, but there's nothing wrong with having them on the bench or around the first team.
38 Posted 13/06/2018 at 08:23:45
39 Posted 13/06/2018 at 09:24:25
Talking of Michael Ball, a good player indeed, I recall he was once disciplined with A N Other for laughing on the coach back after a defeat somewhere. Walter "Disappointing" Smith took huge umbrage at such unprofessional behaviour apparently, and then sold him to his first love, Rangers.
40 Posted 13/06/2018 at 09:46:46
Phillip Max & Plattenhardt are likely to be the two left-backs for Germany after the World Cup.
Either one of these two would be a great addition. Plattenhardt seems to fit the Premier League a bit better.
With regards to Antonee Robinson - I think he's ready to rotate at left-back at the moment. However, I'd rather let him have one more season playing every game, so he can develop & grow much more than rotating with Baines.
Then next season he'll come in and compete for the starting position with Plattenhardt. Baines taking on a squad role.
41 Posted 13/06/2018 at 10:17:53
I don't think that qualifies as keeping someone else out of the side, especially during the 8 months he was out injured.
42 Posted 13/06/2018 at 10:32:42
43 Posted 13/06/2018 at 10:54:28
44 Posted 13/06/2018 at 11:29:23
Who knows how Galloway or Garbutt would have progressed if they'd have had that 50 games experience instead of a £4.5 million back up.
That's exactly the reason we don't need to sign a back-up player who will deny Robinson the opportunity to pick up this kind of experience.
If he will replace Baines then sign him, if not then stick with Robinson as back up and see if he develops.
45 Posted 13/06/2018 at 11:39:47
I think that Loans in general are really good – given the team they're sent to is a good fit and they have a realistic chance of starting.
After that – it's up to the players to prove that they're good enough.
Unfortunately for both Garbutt and Galloway - it seems that their attitude and workrate was simply not good enough. And that's on them. They are good enough to start for the teams they went to, but they didn't give it their all & they have no-one to blame but themselves.
Looking at the likes of Robinson, Connolly, Joe Williams, Dowell (for the most part) – they worked hard, put in the effort and had good attitudes that allowed them to get into the starting positions and improve over the season (with the exception of Dowell – where I think fitness was the biggest issue).
46 Posted 13/06/2018 at 11:50:15
47 Posted 13/06/2018 at 12:01:16
48 Posted 13/06/2018 at 12:07:59
But Baines needs replacing, end of. Keep him around, but he is not and should not be a first team player any more.
So if Silva/Brands find a good option for left back, we need to sign them. 2 players for each position.
Hope Robinson can have that top impact, but he aint ready to play 45 games.
49 Posted 13/06/2018 at 12:10:52
But while we have had links with players at other clubs, I've heard next to nothing about potential suitors for players we are probably looking to offload. It seems it is not an orderly queue to prise away such talents as Schneiderlin, McCarthy, Williams, Funes Mori, Bolasie, Besic, Martina, Mirallas, Klaassen, Ramirez et al. In fact, there appears to be no queue; even Rooney is still yet to go and I would be very surprised if we do not end up paying a large percentage of his wages, such is our weak negotiating position.
Does anyone have any idea what we might hope to raise from eliminating our weakest links? Are all these on wages so generous that they might prefer to 'do a Bogarde' and hang around like a bad smell? If sources are correct, the combined wage bill for that lot is close to £50m per annum, which make them look a lot less like assets, more like huge liabilities.
50 Posted 12/06/2018 at 12:29:55
But if we're rolling out Baines as a regular, his legs will break down without some rest. We're going to have to accept a defensive howler or 3 from Antonee, if he's the option. For sure, he'll get picked on. Then again, so will Baines. So who knows how it will play if the kid actually works his way into Silva's plans for next season.
But if his plans are to send Robinson out again for more seasoning, we might have to accept a Baines/Martina stop-gap for one more season. Unpalatable to many, no doubt. Certainly not optimal.
But I remain of the mind that this season's plan is just to find a team while Brands and Silva sort out the current mess. If that mean one more go-round with Baines/Martina, I can live with it.
For me, it's 19-20 and 20-21 when we will see what's what. And to go back with my agreement with Mike's assessment of young Antonee, I expect him to be right in that mix.
Anyways. we'll find out Silva's plans for the kid soon enough.
51 Posted 13/06/2018 at 12:45:01
Oviedo, already a full international, signed for us in 2012 aged 22 when Leighton Baines was in his prime. Only injury to Baines would see Bryan promoted to the first team in front of him.
Luke Garbutt was poached from Leeds in 2009, aged just 16, still only 19 when Oviedo first signed for Everton. He was loaned out to Cheltenham and Colchester respectively, either side of Oviedo's arrival at Everton, aged just 19 and 20. Very much down the pecking order.
Brendan Galloway signed for Everton 2 years after Oviedo, aged just 18. It is already 2 full seasons since he last played PL football for Everton, aged 20.
Neither Garbutt nor Galloway in their loan spells away from the club have advanced their cause or suggested they are capable of being Leighton's understudy, let alone replacing him.
Given the timing of their arrival at Everton, their respective ages and experience, it is a real stretch for you to claim Oviedo somehow denied them the "50 games experience" that could have made all the difference.
But for his injury at Stevenage 4 years ago, Bryan Oviedo was clearly showing signs of being more than a "£4.5 million back up" you label him.
For those of us who like to follow the young 'uns, it is no surprise that Antonee Robinson is now being spoken of in terms of the first team. It is still a leap to conclude he is ready now to fulfil the left-back role full-time.
Conclusion: it would be negligent for Everton to go into a successive second season without adequate first-team ready over at left back.
52 Posted 13/06/2018 at 13:16:28
The sad reality is young players make more mistakes and despite doing well last season the reality was that in some games Kenny was exposed especially away from home. If you want the team to be at the top level then the young players have to succeed on loan at lesser clubs like Danny Rose did for Sunderland, Moses at Liverpool before stepping up to West Ham and Chelsea, this is what we need to do with our young players.
In today's modern game, you need top class full backs and let's be honest when we had Martina and Kenny playing the team was really suffering, we need to buy a replacement for Baines and have Baines as the back up with a younger player.
53 Posted 13/06/2018 at 13:17:35
Oh interesting – I didn't realize he'd been injured. After looking at the stats, it seems he missed about 3 months...
Definitely seems a character & has one thing that seems to be almost gone in the modern game – loyalty. Fair enough, I respect that!
It seems he won't be leaving Germany any time soon – plus he is getting on a bit.
Plattenhardt – from what I've heard and seen – is a bit more physical, and definitely has a much better crossing, passing and dead ball ability. I think he'd be a very good addition – a left foot option from set pieces, that we've been missing since Baines has seemed to deteriorate over the last few years. I've heard Plattenhardt is better defensively than Phillip Maxx, so that's also a good sign. Defensive ability should be a priority. Good age too, at 26.
54 Posted 13/06/2018 at 13:21:38
He seems very driven & I think over the next few years – Everton will become a massive attraction to players. Not that it isn't at the moment, but there is that lack of stability & the reputation of being just below the top 6.
Give him time, I think he'll solidify & build a platform for great things to come.
55 Posted 13/06/2018 at 13:25:41
56 Posted 13/06/2018 at 13:28:12
I think there was another player caught laughing, what a terrible crime !!!! Maybe Frannie Jeffers, if it was those three players got Everton close to £20M, not bad... Who laughed last? – that is the question.
57 Posted 13/06/2018 at 13:28:43
The point I was getting at is that if Oviedo wasn't there then Galloway and Garbutt would have had more of a chance to shine and might have potentially been on track to become Baines successor. We're not in Europe and we have a huge wage bill, there is no point spending money on a reserve when we have a good prospect already who would probably only feature in 5 - 10 games anyway. We have far bigger priorities than spending money on reserve players.
Imagine if we weren't “negligent” and bought a seasoned international to be a reserve in every position on £40k a week. That's £400k a week or £20million a year doing nothing except getting in the way of the academy, we might as well do a Newcastle and scrap it altogether.
As for Oviedo – he was never going to replace Baines so was always just going to be a back up player.
58 Posted 13/06/2018 at 13:31:18
I'd love to see it. I'd rather him there than Schneiderlin.
59 Posted 13/06/2018 at 13:51:29
And the point I made (and one that still remains) was that the two younger players were either too young to be realistically considered as understudy to Baines, or weren't even at the club in Oviedo's time. They were out on loan or, in Galloway's case, he signed two years after Oviedo (aged just 18).
You can't time warp those facts. Nor can you airbrush out of history the further facts that, at considerably lower levels, neither Garbutt nor Galloway have made a case for their inclusion in Everton's matchday Premier League squads.
Your argument about the finances of recruiting another left-back is another discussion altogether. My position is we were very clearly exposed in that position last season when Baines got injured. Your own position about Garbutt and Galloway is further undermined by another inconvenient fact that even though Oviedo was no longer at the club last season, Garbutt remained in the U-23s even though we were crying out for a natural left-back in Baines's absence and Galloway, for the second consecutive season, was again packed off on loan where he was unable to break into a woeful, relegation-bound Sunderland side.
As for Oviedo, we will have to disagree about your claim that "he was never going to replace Baines so was always just going to be a back up player." A fully fit, pre-leg break Oviedo would have been the obvious and natural successor to Leighton.
60 Posted 13/06/2018 at 14:55:18
61 Posted 13/06/2018 at 15:08:03
He is still an experienced man to have but they have to get in a younger man soon and quite honestly it fails me to understand how a player like Ashley Young can get picked for England ahead of a man like Baines. Oh, I forgot he plays for Man Utd.
62 Posted 13/06/2018 at 15:08:36
I think the funds are still there to buy new players, but Moshiri appears reluctant to authorise a spending spree having done so last summer. I also believe that he will want to divert as much funding as possible towards the stadium.
63 Posted 13/06/2018 at 15:13:45
My main fear is that Baines cannot be relied on to play 30+ games next season. He missed 16 league games last season, only 6 league games the season before, but 20 league games the season before that. That's 42 league games missed in the last three seasons and he's 34 in December.
64 Posted 13/06/2018 at 15:15:29
65 Posted 13/06/2018 at 15:17:58
As for Garbutt and Galloway, they were simply found out as insufficient, which happens all the time with young players. Garbutt never had the talent, outside of crossing the ball. Galloway had talent but also a huge flaw in his defensive game and lost his confidence. I see Robinson as head-and-shoulders above both, acknowledging once again that I've only seen him play two full games.
66 Posted 13/06/2018 at 15:25:40
I don't think Baines is up to a 38 game season. Therefore, we need to sign someone. If we got in someone like Rose, then I'd encourage Baines to leave to carry on playing, the transfer to LA Galaxy seemed interesting, which would mean Robinson is still able to be the backup and have a good chance of getting 5-10 games, including cup games.
BTW, are you a Kaylor Navas fan, or just being tongue-in-cheek?
67 Posted 13/06/2018 at 15:50:36
I'm certainly not a Navas "fan", since I cheer for Barca in Spain, but I consider him clearly the best international keeper on the planet. He was absolute magic in getting an under-talented Costa Rica (best player Bryan freaking Ruiz) into the World Cup, and he was excellent for Real in La Liga. Why he turns into Fumbles Fabianski in the Champions League is beyond me, but he's transcendent for his country, and my pick to win the Golden Glove in Russia.
68 Posted 13/06/2018 at 16:16:27
Chelsea will probably sort themselves out, by appointing the excellent Sarri for one, but there's still a chance that their current issues get worse (the whole Abramovich situation) and they properly implode, and so fall below us.
Burnley will not be anywhere near where they were last season. They cannot do what they did last season, whilst playing an extra 12+ games. That's them below us, and maybe even going down. So who will finish above us who was below us last season? Maybe Wolves, if they spend well? Maybe, Newcastle? Leicester?
I think we can regain our Best of the Rest title without doing too much next season. And as stated above, maybe Arsenal or Chelsea, or both, have a bad season and fall below us (rather than us doing something incredible and overtaking them).
Let's face it, the current squad, as crap as it played, was still top 6 or whatever on all those "since Allardyce came" tables. So, why on earth can't a decent coach continue that form and retain where Allardyce had us, whilst modifying how we play. In other words, achieving the same results, but in a manner more pleasing on the eye.
As for the squad, I do think there is quality there. Pickford, Coleman, Baines, Jagielka, Keane, Schneiderlin, Gueye, Sigurdsson, Lookman, Walcott, Tosun. That's a better XI than anyone but the top 6 sides have, those players just need to hit their best form, as previously shown, even if it was some time back for some of them. We've hired a coach to make that happen.
Who knows maybe Holgate, Robinson, Davies, Lookman, Dowell, or Calvert-Lewin can have a breakout season and really fulfill their potential? Maybe a couple of astute signings can transform the side?
I for one have high hopes and expectations for next season.
69 Posted 13/06/2018 at 16:27:03
I love your starry-eyed optimism.
70 Posted 13/06/2018 at 16:27:08
Looks like we are willing to do anything to get wages off the books. Loan deals to Turkish clubs is the last chance saloon for a selling club.
It is probably just bluster to flush out any lower Premier League teams who may be interested.
71 Posted 13/06/2018 at 16:56:48
72 Posted 13/06/2018 at 17:43:03
73 Posted 13/06/2018 at 20:47:26
74 Posted 13/06/2018 at 21:31:54
75 Posted 13/06/2018 at 21:57:14
76 Posted 13/06/2018 at 21:59:17
If Oviedo wasn't there they might have progressed with constant exposure to the first team squad and a sprinkling of 40-50 games over 4 years and this thread may never have happened. We'll never know.
Oviedo hampered their progress by being an international back up.
77 Posted 13/06/2018 at 22:00:34
78 Posted 13/06/2018 at 22:31:26
You are clearly determined to try and contest the chronological facts to comply with your original claim.
Your latest claim – that both Garbutt and Galloway went out on loan because they didn't want to be 3rd choice when Oviedo was back – is pure speculation on your part.
Is it really necessary to reiterate as I already detailed @ 51 how old all 3 players were when Oviedo signed for us in 2012, or the fact that Galloway only signed for us 2 years later, AFTER Bryan broke his leg (and wasn't the same since)?
Is it really necessary to repeat that in the period you are contesting that Bryan's presence at the club denied the 2 younger players valuable game time, when Leighton Baines was in his prime, that Bryan himself couldn't get game time?
Pure speculation on my part, but I would hazard a guess that most Blues in the time frame you attempt to place the debate would accept Bryan Oviedo as the natural and superior cover alternative to Leighton Baines.
And yet somehow, you conclude from your very warped logic that it is Bryan Oviedo's fault that Garbutt and Galloway "notably regressed during their 2 years out on loan", seemingly exonerating the two players from any personal failure or inadequacy on their part.
Oh! And I personally would rather fancy Everton having "international [class] back up" in every position. You know... that thing that the most successful clubs in the modern era have ?
79 Posted 14/06/2018 at 05:32:29
Anybody remember the way the lad was playing when left-back was injured? The 1-0 winner he scored against Man Utd? The only thing that kept Oviedo out of the team was that Leighton Baines was still Leighton Baines.
I think somewhere along the line their trajectories would have crossed, and Leighton would be sitting in his track suit, warming the bench. But wtf do I know? I had $100 on us making the Champions League this season, so clearly I'm demented.
As for Galloway and Browning, it's a big step down, and a harder step up from the Championship to the Premier League, a lot of good players get lost in that whirlwind. Both young lads too, away from home, out of form... it's not easy.
80 Posted 14/06/2018 at 09:33:11
Did Galloway and Garbutt both look promising when they started games in Baines and Oviedo absence? - Yes
Did they both subsequently get loan deals when Oviedo was back as they wouldnt get the game time to continue their development? - Yes
Did they regress from their initial promise during these loans? - Yes
Therefore - did the presence of an international left back who was never going to replace Baines in his prime hinder the development of 2 promising players? - Yes
Im not doubting that Oviedo was good, it was a comparison to purchasing an international left back solely for cover and how it could impact Robinsons development.
Im also not saying that we signed Oviedo when we had these players - it was a comparison for the presence of a back up player.
As for having international back up in every position...
1. Robinson is a USA international.
2. Are you happy with the international cover in Williams, Besic, Klassen, Martina, Funes Mori, Rooney etc? Id much rather have players who are hungry to play than those moving to pick up a paycheque.
Another point about purchasing players just for cover is that the manager may feel obliged to use them occasionally rather than keeping a settled team. Leicester won the league with a settled team who knew each others strengths, Chelsea did the year they werent in the Champions league. A squad packed full of international cover for every position when were not in Europe will only encourage disharmony and a less than settled first XI.
81 Posted 14/06/2018 at 11:22:23
82 Posted 14/06/2018 at 12:55:49
But Brands has said as much:
"First of all we need to offload players to raise money [to spend], and also salary-wise"
What is not quite clear from that is whether the idea is to use the accounting method I believe Everton use, to write down a players value- essentially the fee we paid for them- over the course of their contract. I suspect that will be the measure for Moshiri, he wants to make sure there is no loss on player trading. But to raise that funding, you need a player whose market valuation substantially exceeds their book value. At one extreme, you would have Lukaku for whom we would have booked the vast majority of his transfer fee as a player trading profit- his book value would only have been around £12m.
Unfortunately the players we wish to sell are, I would suggest, unlikely to fetch much above book value. Take Bolasie as an example. We would need to get £20m for him to make even a modest profit of a few million. Or Klaassen, where we would need to raise his original fee of £25m to raise roughly £5m book profit.
From an accounting point of view, you can certainly include salary savings into the potential sums available to spend on new players but only provided you include the newcomer's salary as part of the equation. And while it would be ideal to trim the wage bill, one of the barriers to that is the wages some of them are on. Klaassen for example is supposedly on £5m per year, Bolasie is on £4m so we need to find a club who can fund those kind of wages as well as paying the transfer fee we are talking about. This creates a problem. As Brands himself says:
"..if you make a new signing, with the salaries in England, and the player is not successful, then what do you do? In most countries players cannot make the wages they get in the Premier League, so a lot of players who dont play here cannot play anywhere, because the salaries are not comparable"
I'll give you a classic case in point, Sandro Ramirez. We could certainly expect a fee in excess of his book value of around £4m. But where would we find a club willing to pay his £6m wages given he has basically been a flop? Again back to Brands:
“I always say when you buy 10 players eight or nine have to do well."
That might be a touch ambitious, but he is broadly correct and certainly it is a strike rate we are a country mile away from. Of all the players we have bought in the past couple of years, there are probably only 3 who we could realistically sell above their book value, taking into account wage affordability for the buyer- Pickford, Gueye, and Calvert Lewin.
Of the earlier vintages, ironically we could probably make a decent turn on Besic of all people. He is near zero in book value, is still only young, and his wages are among the lowest in the squad so the potential suitors cover a wider range. He is even affordable for Chamionship clubs.
I think we are in a pickle here and already the noises are around trying to bring through youth, which may not be the worst idea as we should certainly be trying to integrate promising players like Lookman. But I think the position we are in is pretty much articulated by Brands. Hopefully we can leverage a bit of money from people like Besic, maybe Funes Mori is another we could make money on, and maybe even sell one of our younger players with minimal book value to raise some proper money; Calvert Lewin? Davies?
I think we had an earlier chat about managers and your support for Silva was based on his supposed tactical ability and maximising player potential. At the time, I was hoping that Mosh hadn't splashed all his cash and with a surfeit of top managers, we might have aimed a bit higher, for example someone like Jardim.
In hindsight, I think you made the more accurate call. We are maybe lucky to have Silva and Brands
83 Posted 14/06/2018 at 13:31:57
I don't vehemently disagree with your opening gambit @ 37, namely:
"If this fella (the HB player) is the long-term replacement to Baines then buy him." I also want to recruit 'first-team' ready players, rather than take an expensive punt on 'promise and potential', particularly at left back.
Why? Because in December Leighton turns 34. Since he joined Everton in the 2007-08 aged 23, even though Moyes 'eased' him into the 1st team, he still made 29 appearances for us that season - 22 in the PL.
Since that debut season, in the subsequent 10 seasons Leighton, in just 2 seasons, played less than 30 PL. Not only were his performances of a consistently high standard, he very rarely missed games due to injury, certainly not in the clusters of the last 3 seasons as time waits for no man.
In 2015-16 he played just 18 PL games, in 2016-17 he recovered to play 32 PL games. Last season it was down to 22 PL games. These are the signals of a player whose spirit may be willing, but whose ability and endurance are on the wane.
It was therefore hugely negligent of the club to not have adequate cover for Leighton in a season in which we also had Europa League games to contend with in addition to the domestic fixture league. The inevitable happened and we lost Leighton's services for half a season and had to 'make do' without him. It would be hugely negligent of the club to repeat that error again this summer.
Which brings me to the point you contest the most, as you stated again in your post @ 37: "if [Plattenhardt is not the long term replacement for Baines] he serves nothing more than Oviedo did – hanging around blocking the development of Robinson just like Oviedo did with Galloway and Garbutt."
This is a separate issue and a claim based on a false premise, as I have already demonstrated. Let me spell it out for you (again) just why.
Luke Garbutt was a mere 16 years old when he was poached from Leeds in July 2009. For the next 3 seasons - aged 16-17-18 - he was nowhere near the first team. Indeed, in the 3rd of those seasons he was loaned out to League Two Cheltenham where he saw a lot of game time - 37 appearances in total. Note: League Two, at 18.
Bryan Oviedo wasn't even at Everton in those 3 seasons. Bryan only joined us in August 2012, aged 22, already a full Costa Rica international. So you can exclude those seasons from your claim that Oviedo 'blocked' Garbutt's development.
In 2012-13 - the first season both were together at the club - both made appearances for the U-21s, Garbutt made 1 appearance for the 1st team - in a League Cup tie as a sub. Oviedo made 15 PL appearances, mostly as a late sub for a total game time of just 226 minutes. Evidently, the management preferred the 22-year-old Oviedo over the 19-year-old Garbutt as understudy, but did not select the Costa Rican to usurp Baine's place.
In 2013-14, Garbutt continued his development with the U-21s and was also sent out on loan to League One Colchester where he played 20 games.
For Oviedo, this was his 'breakthrough' and (sadly) his 'break a leg' season. Bryan made 13 appearances for the 1st team covering for the injured Baines, but also many as sub. His season was over in January 2014 after breaking his leg at Stevenage.
No evidence there of Oviedo 'blocking' Garbutt's development.
Brendan Galloway only joined Everton in the summer of 2014 at 18 when Bryan was still on the long road to recovery.
In the 2014-15, the now 21-year-old Garbutt played 10 games for the 1st team and a total of 768 minutes - an average of 77 minutes per game. In his debut season, the 18-year-old Galloway played largely for the U-21s, but at the end of the season played twice for the first team for a total of 174 minutes. Oviedo, by contrast, appeared 11 times for the 1st team for a total game time of 665 minutes - a full 100 minutes less than Garbutt.
Again, the data further undermines your claim that Oviedo was 'blocking' Garbutt's and Galloway's development.
In 2015-16, Garbutt was packed off to Championship Fulham. He played 26 times for them, but was not a regular starter and the reports about his form were not encouraging.
The now 19-year-old Galloway, by contrast, at the start of that season, held down a starting berth in place of injured Baines, ahead of Oviedo (even though he is a centre back, rather than left back by default). He played 14 of the first 15 PL games of the season before Baines returned from injury. In total, Galloway made 19 1st team appearances that season for a total game time of 1463 minutes.
Bryan Oviedo by contrast also made 19 1st team appearances and played a total of 1508 minutes. Pretty much parity with Galloway. It should also be noted that on returning to the U-21s, it was frequently reported how Galloway's performances and application fell away.
Again, that season's data undermines your premise Kevin about Oviedo 'blocking' the young 'uns development.
In 2016-17, the 23-year-old Garbutt was again loaned out to Championship side and soon-to-be-relegated Wigan. He couldn't make the side, playing a token 8 games. Similarly, the 20-year-old Galloway was loaned to WBA. He played just 5 games for them and the loan deal was ended early. Bryan Oviedo played just 7 more times for Everton that season before being sold to Sunderland in January 2017.
Taken all together, I regret to say Kevin, but your belief that Oviedo somehow blocked the development and progress of Garbutt and Galloway - given the respective ages of all three players, the time they were actually at the club together and all available for 1st team selection - just doesn't stand up to close inspection.
84 Posted 14/06/2018 at 15:05:50
2014/2015 - Garbutt played mostly towards the back end of the year when Oviedo was injured with a hamstring injury then a broken metatarsal. He didnt return until August 1st of the 2015/16 season.
Garbutt, after playing for the first team, wanted a new contract and wanted first team football which he wasnt going to get when Oviedo was back. He went out on loan and disappointed. If Oviedo wasnt in the squad, he would probably have hung around knowing he would get some game time.
Oviedo was injured again on 29th August in the 2015/16 season, meaning he was back in training for just 4 weeks. This lack of match fitness and subsequent injury at the same time as Baines meant that Galloway got some game time. Galloway succeeded in keeping Oviedo out of the team when he returned at the end of September, however this is hardly surprising when he had only been fit for 4 weeks out of 5 months. When Baines returned, Galloway fell back to the bench. The next season he was loaned out as well.
Both of them only played initially when Baines and Oviedo were injured. Both of them got loaned out to get more game time as they would have been 3rd choice left back (or in Galloway case, 5th or 6th centre back) while Oviedo was at the club.
85 Posted 14/06/2018 at 15:09:57
I know that Baines has been out a bit in the last 3 years, however with us not being in Europe this year and with no midweek to contend with. I reckon his body will have more time to recover and hell be less susceptible to injuries.
86 Posted 14/06/2018 at 15:40:09
Thank you for reinforcing my 'data' with examples of your own that Oviedo suffered further injuries on the road to recovery following his leg break, thus further freeing up more opportunities to claim the 'back up' berth to Baines for Garbutt and Galloway. Yet more evidence Bryan in no way can be considered to have 'blocked' the 2 younger players development and progress as you continue to pedal.
Professional sport and PL football is based on meritocracy. That is, the best player plays. If that player isn't available, the next best player plays.
Different Everton manager's clearly had a plan in place to develop Garbutt and Galloway, as demonstrated by their respective loan spells to 4 different clubs, at different levels. Neither player has progressed as much as was hoped.
Bryan Oviedo's presence at the club was not the unique and exclusive reason why their development stalled as you speculate. It can also be down to the players themselves, their coaches and many other factors.
You are attempting to pass off a coincidence, a correlation - that the 3 players were (very fleetingly) at Everton at the same time - implies a single causal effect - that it was only Oviedo's presence at the club that has impacted negatively on Garbutt's and Galloway's development.
It just ain't so.
87 Posted 15/06/2018 at 10:13:44
Don't think we're ever going to agree on this one regarding Oviedo...
However, my original point was that there is no point signing cover when we have Robinson there. If he is going to be the long-term left-back - fair enough, if he's not then there's no point this year.
If we were in Europe and we're looking at a fixture list containing 50+ games then I would agree that we would need cover. I can see Baines playing around 35 games so it would be a big ask for Robinson to cover up to 20 games. However we are probably looking at a fixture list containing 40-45 games, so it is ideal for Robinson to get that first team experience.
If we are in Europe next season then we have to decide if Robinson has made the necessary improvements and consistency to be considered a suitable back up player who could be called upon for a large number of games. This season - we don't. So there is no point spending money on a player who will warm the bench for the large part of the season.
ps: I'm still right about Ovied!o 😂
88 Posted 15/06/2018 at 10:38:23
89 Posted 15/06/2018 at 11:33:29
What a foresenically brilliant post.
I actually think you're correct and recall Galloway being a prospect but I'm not sure what went wrong (attitude?)
I never ever rated Garbutt. The chap simply can't defend (and if remember correctly, turns his back to the ball when hit hard!!!). He's just not up to it.
Oviedo was also overrated. His ‘purple patch' still wasn't amazing and he similarly had issues defending. His claim to fame was the winner at Man Utd and suddenly he was God's gift to Everton.
Baines has consistently been my favourite Everton player for years and perhaps the best offensive full back I've ever seen. However, he simply cannot stop a cross and on that basis is not good enough anymore (and it pains me to say that).
We can make do with Baines for one more season but that's about it, I'd proffer.
90 Posted 15/06/2018 at 13:55:31
"Dont think were ever going to agree on this one regarding Oviedo."
You think..? I divined that by your 2nd post in our exchange.
For me Kevin this is typical of some exchanges that pop up on TW now and again. A poster (you) makes a bold claim (Oviedo's presence at Everton blocked the progress of 2 young players, namely Garbutt and Galloway) which is challenged by other posters.
The original poster (you), rather than concede the considerable counter-evidence that torpedoes their original premise, and unable to effectively counter the counters, introduces a number of 'distractors' laced with conditionals, ifs, buts and maybes that has nothing to do with their (your) primary claim.
The examples of Garbutt and Galloway you are so eager to quote should serve as a warning sign to you to not place so much faith in Antonee Robinson being able to adequately cover for Leighton Baines, or even be considered now as his long-term replacement.
Why? Because both Garbutt and Galoway were of a younger age than Robinson (who turns 21 in August) when they made their Everton first team debuts. They have had considerably more first-team appearances with Everton than Robinson, which isn't difficult as Antonee has the grand sum of ZERO appearances for Everton's first team. After initially impressing, both have failed to 'kick on', although given every opportunity to do so.
Yes, Robinson played on loan at struggling Bolton in the Championship last season and he played recently for the US. How does that promote him, in your eyes, to be Leighton Baines' back-up next season and long-term replacement for LB? Who is to say with absolute confidence now he will become our 'new Leighton', or...if he will go the way of Garbutt and Galloway?
I will repeat, it was hugely negligent of the club last season to loan out nearly all our fit left-sided defenders and expect the 33-year-old Baines to complete a fixture-packed season unscathed. It will be doubly negligent if, on the back of last season's experience, the club repeat the error and do not ensure adequate left back cover for the coming season.
91 Posted 15/06/2018 at 14:27:00
We were right to sign Oviedo when we did, we had no cover for Baines.
Garbutt broke into the team and looked promising when both Baines and Oviedo were injured, it is doubtful he would have got a game were our understudy fit.
Oviedo, and Baines, were expected to be fit by the time the next season started. Therefore, in order not to be 3rd choice (and a condition of him signing his new contract if I recall, remember he was in his last few months and a Liverpool were sniffing around) he went on loan and has regressed since. If We didn't have a reserve left back at the time, Garbutt may have stayed, got the 15 or so games that Galloway got and built on his promise. Therefore the presence of Oviedo had a potentially negative effect on Garbutt being able to build on his early potential at Everton.
When Oviedo and Baines were injured at the start of the next season, Galloway broke into the team, played 15 times and kept an unfit Oviedo out of the team for a period. When Baines returned Galloway dropped out. We had a choice in the next season, keep Galloway as a 3rd choice left back (behind Baines and our understudy - Oviedo) or loan him out for some game time. We loaned him and his career has regressed since. Therefore the presence of Oviedo had a potentially negative effect on Galloway being able to build on his early potential at Everton.
I've never said that Robinson will be Baines long-term replacement – that is something you have made up to suit yourself – I've said he should be back up this season to give him that opportunity to develop and we can make a more informed choice next season. I think his spell on loan has justified this.
I've never said it wasn't negligent to be left without left back cover last season, especially since we were in Europe. Robinson was no where near ready last season, however without Europe he is more than ready to fill in a few times this year. Especially if we can do what Ferguson used to do at Utd and what Zidane has done for Ronaldo last year and plan times for Baines to rest to manage his body.
I don't believe that any counter-evidence has torpedoed my original claim. Galloway and Garbutt would not have got the game time they did without BOTH (thought I'd counter your bold writing with some capital letters!!) left backs being injured. Therefore they would not have got the chance to show their potential with the presence of a fit understudy to Baines and both went on loan when the understudy to Baines was once again fit (or believed to be in Garbutts case) and they were relegated to 3rd choice left back.
If we sign an understudy left back and Baines is fatigued, suspended or injured, it will be the understudy who plays, thus denying Antonee Robinson the chance to play and thus potentially preventing his progress at Everton.
Like I've said, for the sake of covering a few games while we're not in Europe, I'd much rather see Robinson given the chance to prove himself so we can make a better-informed decision next season if we are in Europe.
92 Posted 15/06/2018 at 15:05:54
The fact that both Garbutt and Galloway regressed is more to do with their failures. Dowell went on loan and thrived, hopefully we will benefit this season. Pickford at Sunderland went on loan and is England no1 as a result. Kane went on loan and it helped him become one of the best strikers in the world. Robinson went on loan and played well and is now in contention to join the first team.
Galloway and Garbutt didn't thrive. Why? No idea. But many a player can come in for 10-15 games as a youngster and look promising, but to maintain the level, improve, have the discipline etc etc over a long period; not all players can, including these two.
And in terms of back up for baines. We need to replace Baines now, not have back up. Imo, anotherand left back is a must and Robinson as back up/competition. Baines as 3rd choice, maybe FA and League Cup. Next season Baines to join the coaching staff.
93 Posted 15/06/2018 at 15:38:45
I think we're done here now Kevin.
Your latest post now concedes that we were right to sign Oviedo when we did because "we had no cover for Baines". Exactly the situation we find ourselves in now, only worse because Leighton is 33, going on 34, not 27 and in his prime.
You further concede "It is doubtful [Garbutt] would have got a game were our understudy [Oviedo] fit." But you are willing to 'chance' it next season with only the totally untried Robinson (who I like, incidentally) as Leighton's cover.
The bulk of the rest of your last post is just self-justifying flannel.
94 Posted 16/06/2018 at 08:49:24
Garbutt not getting a game when Oviedo was fit isnt conceding - its justifying a point that his presence prevented him getting an opportunity sooner.
As for self justifying flannel - we all have opinions - some of us prefer to deal in them without backhanded insults.
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