Full details of the Planning Application submitted for Everton FC's proposed new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock are going up online before a month-long public comment period opens tomorrow.
This key step sees the breadth and extent of Everton's plans to build a 52,888-seater stadium on the derelict docks site presented to the public, via Liverpool City Council's Planning Explorer website
The highly detailed project planning documents are mainly in the form of Portable Document Format (PDF) files that can be freely downloaded for review by anyone who has an interest in the project and its potential impacts to the community and the environment.
The comment period opens officially on Friday 21 February and runs through 20 March 2020. A hard copy of the application is also at Central Library, William Brown Street, (1st Floor Reference Section) and is available to view during normal library opening times. Comments on the application need to be made in writing, quoting the application reference number 20F/0001.
Colin Chong, Everton's Stadium Development Director said: “A significant amount of work has gone into getting to this final stage of applying for planning permission, and extreme care has been taken to ensure that our stadium proposals enhance Bramley-Moore Dock and the surrounding area.
“A new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock will be truly transformational for North Liverpool, the city region and the Northern Powerhouse. This is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to make a difference to the future of our city. I would ask everyone, even if you are not a football fan, to consider this final planning application and submit your comments to the Council at this vitally important moment.”
Reader Comments (254)
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1 Posted 19/02/2020 at 16:19:27
2 Posted 19/02/2020 at 17:00:40
"High risk of flooding to the majority of the site when climate change is taken into account based upon existing site levels"
Bring your wellies lads.
3 Posted 19/02/2020 at 17:00:50
Would you know, Ryan, on the Dates Page relating to the application what 'Dates first advertised' and 'Dates of First Consultation' refers to? I ask because both are dated for a couple of days off - 21 February.
Would the first be like placing an ad/pubic notice of the application in local newspapers, and would the 2nd be a formal meet between the council planning committee and the club?
On the same page, would you also know what 'Stat Cons Expiry Date' refers to? It's dated for next month, 24 March. What needs to happen by that date?
Very interesting to read the various 'constraints' on the site, including 'Area Susceptible to Groundwater Flooding'. Eek! But then, it is the docks.
Also reassuring for me was to see a long history of many successful planning applications to the site dating back nearly 30 years in some cases, albeit none of them on the scale of Everton's plans.
LOADSA PDF and Word docs to download and read related to every aspect of the planning application.
Great thanks again for the link, Ryan.
4 Posted 19/02/2020 at 17:02:37
5 Posted 19/02/2020 at 17:13:14
Could that be statutory consultation?
6 Posted 19/02/2020 at 17:32:00
Still none the wiser what the hell it means!!!
This is a whole new lexicon for me!
7 Posted 19/02/2020 at 17:34:40
8 Posted 19/02/2020 at 17:41:31
Everton doing to a lot of work for something that's never going to happen!
9 Posted 19/02/2020 at 18:04:36
I'm scan reading some of the (many!) downloadable PDFs and Docs and there's one called 'PUBLICITY AND CONSULTATIONS RECORD SHEET' with loads of steps to be taken and different agencies to be informed with a target date of completing the same by 24 March.
There's some fascinating and detailed stuff to look at on this page with lots of downloadable stuff:
For example, the club commissioned Burohappold Engineering (Liverpool firm, anyone..?) more than a year ago to do a 'Privileged and Confidential Flood Risk and Surface Water Drainage' for the delightfully named 'Project Blue' â€“ the stadium build at Bramley-Moore Dock.
In February 2019 there was a meeting with many attendees, including reps from the club, Liverpool City Council, the Environmental Agency, Gardiner & Theobald (a global company that specialises in delivering large city centre mixed-use facilities), United Utilities (isn't that the local public water supplier for the region these days?) and a few others.
For those huffing and puffing 'all smoke and mirrors... I won't believe this is happening until a spade goes in the ground' might want to reconsider such thoughts.
10 Posted 19/02/2020 at 18:06:20
Not a believer then Ryan?
11 Posted 19/02/2020 at 18:25:42
12 Posted 19/02/2020 at 18:26:38
13 Posted 19/02/2020 at 18:30:27
Some of the downloads are taking an eternity, but thars gold in them thar PDFs and DOCS. Lots of minuted meetings throughout 2019 of different invested parties.
Definitely an exceedingly elaborate hoax if Moshiri and Co have no intention of seeing the Bramley-Moore Dock stadium to completion.
14 Posted 19/02/2020 at 18:31:50
ps: Why have I never seen you at away matches! Ah, of course! Call out at Arsenal on Sunday â€“ I'll listen out for you.
15 Posted 19/02/2020 at 18:45:43
16 Posted 19/02/2020 at 18:49:34
One report in the docs is saying there is 'excellent evidence' that they are a 'potential threat'.
There's some cracking stuff here!
17 Posted 19/02/2020 at 19:01:01
18 Posted 19/02/2020 at 19:02:33
19 Posted 19/02/2020 at 19:10:21
A lot of it is way over my head, but I now have a greater appreciation of just how much goes into a planning application on such a protected site as Everton is proposing to develop.
It appears they have left no stone unturned. Indeed, from the volume of documents and detail within them, they've looked under every one of them and into every nook and cranny on the site!
It really is very impressive.
20 Posted 19/02/2020 at 19:23:13
Well, if that IS the initial capacity, the introduction of safe standing, even if it was only in the home end terrace, would increase the capacity to 59,388 in one fell swoop! Sorted!
21 Posted 19/02/2020 at 19:31:46
22 Posted 19/02/2020 at 19:35:16
Some of the files run to 50+ pages with incredible detail.
Frustrated now that some PDFs won't download and I'm getting a 'corrupted file' msg.
23 Posted 19/02/2020 at 19:38:09
24 Posted 19/02/2020 at 19:44:21
As long as it's not a "corrupt file" message.
Don't want to be facing a Man City type situation before we even get there! ðŸ¤ª
25 Posted 20/02/2020 at 08:37:08
26 Posted 20/02/2020 at 09:19:39
Of great interest to me is the geotechnical and geoenvironmental work on the site, which looks to be quite comprehensive at first glance â€“ they have done a fair bit more than I expected, but I've not done a project like this in the UK for quite a while now, so that's down to my ignorance.
A big thing too is filling in the dock: Appendix_4.2_Dock_Infill_Method.pdf. They are going to rake the mud at the bottom to remove foreign objects, bits of metal, sunken ships, UXO etc, then sink a separateion membrane to lay over the bottom mud, before they pump in sand ('hydraulic fill') on top, dredged from somewhere out in Liverpool Bay.
Once the sand has settled, they will use rapid dynamic compaction to inccrease its density and packing, reducing the tendency for future settlement. Then it will form a stable base for constructing a massive pile cap that will support the new stadium structure, with piles extending below through the sand to the sandstone bedrock below.
In this process, it apppears they will bury the Grade II Listed dock walls... I've yet to read how that constitutes protection in perepetuity. I guess they'll still be there, obviously... just outa sight and outa mind.
27 Posted 20/02/2020 at 11:25:55
28 Posted 20/02/2020 at 12:25:10
Thanks to Ryan Holroyd on the Bradley Moore Dock thread anyone in the world can access a MOUNTAIN of info on the planning application. Follow this link:
In particular, scroll down to the bottom of that opening page and click the 'Related Documents' link (or this following link):
There are dozens of PDFs and Word Doc files to download covering every aspect of the bid, even minuted meetings with different agencies dating back more than a year.
It shows just how thorough Everton is being in preparing this planning application and just how much goes into a project of this scale.
It also makes a nonsense of the skeptical claims of some that this is all an elaborate hoax and is not going to happen.
Fascinating reading, or rather, scan reading! There are scores, hundreds of pages, to get through.
29 Posted 20/02/2020 at 16:09:15
The application documents were posted on the Council's website on 20 Februay sometime later than my first inspection of the site at around 9:30.
Us mortals it would appear have until 13 March to comment on the application online, whereas the statutory consultees (e.g United Utilities) have until 3 June. That seems rather odd to me and gives the public only a narrow window in which to read and then comment. The web site makes provision for posting the comments online but you will be limited to 2000 characters.
I am aware that ground capacity is giving rise to widespread interest. I think it likely the approved application will be conditioned to the figure shown. Any later increase would then be the subject of a further, albeit not so extensive application.
I intend to have a look at the documents over the weekend albeit for the most part the summaries and will post a short note possibly next week if there is anything worth highlighting.
In my first skim through the documents, I did read somewhere that paper copies of all the plans and documents could be seen at the Central Library. Can anyone confirm that as I cannot find the reference again.
30 Posted 20/02/2020 at 16:34:07
31 Posted 20/02/2020 at 16:54:39
32 Posted 20/02/2020 at 17:00:00
33 Posted 20/02/2020 at 17:35:39
34 Posted 20/02/2020 at 17:46:52
Whilst going to The old Lady is always a great, we need a new stadium. Build a new stadium too big then we remove one of our benefits, our support.
35 Posted 20/02/2020 at 18:09:36
It's also 6,000 more than our best ever average attendance.
36 Posted 20/02/2020 at 18:20:43
I believe 55,000 would be about right for now, don't know why, but psychologicaly, 55,000 seems a lot more than 52,000 to me, and would probably satisfy the majority of us.
37 Posted 20/02/2020 at 18:43:52
Interesting stuff...Well explained.
38 Posted 20/02/2020 at 18:52:36
My personal view is that we will only be building this stadium the once & so we should maximise the potential of the site, right from the start. Goodison Park operates at near capacity despite the offering, both on & off the pitch, being rather poor. Therefore, it makes sense to plan for the increased demand that will come with a much better offering both off &, especially, on the pitch.
39 Posted 20/02/2020 at 19:06:36
I know a hotel is being mooted to be built over the road but wouldn't it have paid us to build something like that to give us another revenue stream.
Pub/restaurant, even gym/fitness centre would give us something. If we didn't want to do these things alone possibly in a partnership with an established company?
Using the Club and it's amenities 7 days a week rather than just on matchdays would surely help us money wise.
40 Posted 20/02/2020 at 19:08:39
It has to be 60,000 minimum, I don't care if we have an upper tier empty on the occasions we don't sell out and anyone making a big deal about that is being short-sighted.
One of the things you should do in building a new stadium is factor in future growth but, yet again, the club are acting on the here and now.
41 Posted 20/02/2020 at 19:32:04
While I also appreciate that a larger capacity also increases the costs, but I 'm sure that a slightly larger stadium would reap the rewards down the line. and the atmosphere inside wouldn't be diminished too much.
It would be of little use finding out that after the project is completed, if we had only increased it's capacity we could have been able to host a plethora of events and bring in more income. Just a thought!
42 Posted 20/02/2020 at 19:38:26
43 Posted 20/02/2020 at 19:43:17
44 Posted 20/02/2020 at 19:45:18
We basically fill 40k into a dated dump with wood and restricted views and awful facilities now; surely a spanking shiny stadium will attract even more fans who are put off because of the restricted views.
45 Posted 20/02/2020 at 19:55:49
46 Posted 20/02/2020 at 20:02:42
47 Posted 20/02/2020 at 20:06:35
48 Posted 20/02/2020 at 20:15:25
49 Posted 20/02/2020 at 20:17:21
All this "we could easily fill a 60k, 65k, etc capacity stadium" â€“ is there any empirical evidence? No, it's merely opinion.
With a 13k home end seated capacity, there is a potential increase to 19.5k should safe standing be introduced there. (Check out Dortmund's yellow wall capacity.) That's an extra 6.5k capacity by introducing safe standing in one area only. New capacity: 59,388.
50 Posted 20/02/2020 at 20:37:29
Finally building a new stadium only to increase capacity by a mere 13k? Get a 60k-plus new stadium built and get it filled with reasonably priced tickets, reconnect with the people again in the city as the city's first football club.
I agree with pretty much everything Dennis Stevens has said, this lower capacity stadium just allows and almost encourages higher ticket prices. Bollocks to that. We are not all GPs on a GP's salary!
51 Posted 20/02/2020 at 20:50:54
Maybe the club did indeed pluck "52,888 out of thin air and/or 52,888 was the maximum capacity for the site but the club just decided BMD was the best site and bollocks to the capacity". Perhaps there is no "empirical evidence" in support of the stated capacity & "it's merely opinion".
52 Posted 20/02/2020 at 20:52:43
53 Posted 20/02/2020 at 20:54:00
And what's a “GP'sâ€ salary got to do with it?
54 Posted 20/02/2020 at 21:16:20
55 Posted 20/02/2020 at 21:21:31
Yep, West Ham has 60k seats available at London Stadium -- and supposedly plans to expand, first to 62,500 and then to 66k -- but watch their home matches and you'll see vast tracts of empty seats. That destroys the atmosphere.
According to an article I saw recently, 98.9% of the seats at Goodison are filled on average. I'm assuming that maintaining that figure, rather than raw attendance, is the club's priority statistic for the stadium designer.
56 Posted 20/02/2020 at 21:23:32
The alternative is that a 53k stadium that is sold out will drive up ticket demand, resulting in possibly higher season ticket sales. Season ticket sales are a better revenue stream as they are guaranteed revenue not affected by club form.
Personally I think a sold out every game 53k Bramley-Moore Dock stadium is going to look far more attractive to investors, sponsors, and occasional fans compared with what you get at West Ham. West Ham didn't build the stadium they moved in for next to nothing, I bet most of their fans would prefer less seating and a smaller stadium to what they have.
The only reason Spurs went to a larger capacity is due to the NFL games and possible team they hope to permanently attract as without the higher capacity the NFL would not consider them to host games.
Comparing to Anfield is not a good comparison, frankly our neighbours have a larger international following than us and can put more people in the seats. Even then the sightlines from the new stand are horrific in places and I don't expect much better with the new extension they are putting on the back. There ground will have more seats as I don't think they will ever dare go for safe standing for obvious reasons. The capacities in the end with our standing room will not be too far apart but we will have by far the better stadium with sight lines / closeness to pitch and overall atmosphere.
57 Posted 20/02/2020 at 21:25:10
55 000 is the big league, it's a better figure psychologically, ( to Jeff and me at least!)
When this planning get approved I wouldn't be at all surprised if another 2200 seats were squeezed in by reducing the seating bum area a fraction or utilising the space a bit differently.
And that's before the rail standing possibilities, which will take us possibly to the hallowed figure of 61878.
I wonder if any thought has been given to achieving that figure for the big matches. What a statement that would be, us fans would be in awe of that if they pulled it off.
That hallowed attendance figure would be, on its own, a marker that would contribute to the stadium being full to the brim of Everton's history and an impregnable true blue fortress.
58 Posted 20/02/2020 at 21:34:48
Our new 52,888 stadium will be chock o block every week and will be our new bear pit - something to look forward to and fight for (on and off the pitch).
Michael # 26. The good thing for Everton is the infill exercise and associated learning curve has been done before next door. That would have helped I am sure. Here is a link to how it was done which you may be interested in.
59 Posted 20/02/2020 at 21:40:31
60 Posted 20/02/2020 at 21:41:16
I'm glad you've 'turned up' and found this thread.
I thought of you immediately when opening Ryan's goldmine link yesterday.
I fancy you in particular will enjoy poring over all the included PDFs and Docs.
61 Posted 20/02/2020 at 21:47:05
Like you I live many thousands of miles away - and in my case have done for nearly half a century but I have never gotten the City and The River out of my system not to mention The Blues.
Also a big shout for Alisdair Jones @ 29 - he has put some effort into this.
The PDFs will keep me busy for a few weeks.
62 Posted 20/02/2020 at 22:04:56
Your previously analysis unlike what Everton produced, made the whole scheme seem more plausible for the first time. Will be interesting to see your analysis of this information. Usmanov purchasing the name rights helped a lot as well.
63 Posted 20/02/2020 at 22:52:38
64 Posted 20/02/2020 at 22:54:36
I was working around the RS ground today, and whilst it's grown there's no sense of proportion, and is becoming the blot on the landscape across Liverpool.
Interesting facts about our new stadium design, height limits.
Onwards and upwards, now to despatch Arsenal. That would cap a very good week, for EFC.
65 Posted 20/02/2020 at 23:10:35
I haven't found the bit in the geotechnical report where they decide, recommend or justify leaving the silt in place at the bottom of Bramley-Moore Dock but the problem is that it has a high water content and will tend to compress slowly with the weight of the sand on top. This can produce settlement of the sand over extended time, especially as the membrane is designed to allow the water released in the consolidation process to move upward, into the sand.
If the piles can fully support the pile cap, without any direct support from the sand fill, then there should be no problem. But if not, then the pile cap could suffer differential settlement.
66 Posted 20/02/2020 at 23:19:51
Why the assumption that at 52k there's likely to be a sell-out crowd, but there'll be no demand beyond that point? Even if that assumption was correct, the unused 8k seats would not form one large block of empty seats, anymore than the equivalent shortfall of spectators at Goodison Park (a little over 5k) would result in one large block of empty seats.
Although, the reason for wanting a higher capacity than proposed is simply the belief that there will be sufficient demand to utilise that capacity. Anybody who doesn't think that demand exists will, obviously, feel it makes sense to be rather more conservative.
I don't know what the maximum capacity of the Bramley-Moore Dock site is, although if it's as low as suggested, it seems overly restrictive to me. However, the Club aren't going to engage in construction on a grand scale very often, just look at the history of Goodison Park, so it makes sense to get the maximum out of the site straight away.
I don't have a set figure in mind as ideal, but I do think it would be a shame to be lacking in ambition at this stage in the process, especially if it ends up costing a lot more to increase capacity later on, should that even be feasible.
67 Posted 20/02/2020 at 23:22:26
If they (the council) are asserting it's in the interests of taste, where was this tastefulness when the darkside built their new skyscraper main stand on a piece of land that is on one of the highest points in the city?
68 Posted 20/02/2020 at 23:27:04
I think I read the height limitation had something to do with a "glass ceiling." ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
69 Posted 20/02/2020 at 23:33:22
What we do know is that the proposed number of seats is almost exactly 1/3 larger (33.65%, to be precise) than the current capacity of Goodison.
Will a new stadium, with its (presumably) higher ticket prices, attract 1/3 more fans?
But it now seems more than likely that we will, in fact, find out in September 2023.
70 Posted 20/02/2020 at 23:51:13
71 Posted 21/02/2020 at 00:03:36
72 Posted 20/02/2020 at 00:06:51
If we achieve that, the Bramley-Moore Dock "project" (and I use the word "project" only to show that I'm striving to move on from the lies perpetuated by Kenwright) should be a given, instantly.
And, given that all of the extra money will be spent on the new stadium rather than signing better players, the comfy Finch Farm squad should be totally relaxed too as they seek to put the requisite number of points on the board....
Or am I being too cynical?
73 Posted 21/02/2020 at 00:14:25
Don't forget, we are building on a (still) World Heritage Site.
We also need to be mindful of lighting which doesn't intrude on or even prejudice the river traffic, so no red (as if we would!!!) or green lighting allowed apparently but blue is OK!
There's so much fascinating detail in the shared documents if you care to look.
74 Posted 21/02/2020 at 00:14:52
75 Posted 21/02/2020 at 01:17:53
76 Posted 21/02/2020 at 01:53:10
I've been a season ticket holder and shareholder for years and wasn't consulted and I've never met anyone who was.
Like many others, I feel the (now) 52,888 is far too low and a huge missed opportunity. Yes, our best ever average attendance was circa 51,000 but that was when football was very localised. It now has global 24/7 coverage and even Everton have 'tourist' fans.
77 Posted 21/02/2020 at 02:15:52
78 Posted 21/02/2020 at 03:33:38
So happy to see things progress. If BMD stadium is opened for the 24/25 season, I'll be 76 and my ambition is to be there for the first game (living in Adelaide, Australia, for the past 33 years or so).
It's great to have that warm, fuzzy feeling about Everton again. Onward and upward.
79 Posted 21/02/2020 at 07:04:35
A season ticket for a senior, and there are plenty of us, costs £299 I think.
80 Posted 21/02/2020 at 08:09:02
81 Posted 21/02/2020 at 08:15:41
My view is the finance is already well and truly in place for BMD. Actually, Dan Meis said that after the presentation night.
Don #72 - I also think there will be plenty of “extra moneyâ€ for our new manager if he wants a few players.
Ray #79 - I got those prices of this web page
82 Posted 21/02/2020 at 08:23:13
83 Posted 21/02/2020 at 08:43:36
Prior to your comparison of Bramley-Moore Dock with the adjacent Sandon Dock development, the figures that were being presented by the Club, though few and far between, did not seem plausible.
84 Posted 21/02/2020 at 08:56:46
I want it in blue with blue under lighting at night please, this is so important.
85 Posted 21/02/2020 at 09:03:57
Silt has water. That water will seep into the sand thrown on top of it, causing it (the sand) to compact. Compaction would equate to settling / shifting. That's not good.
Their fast compaction process better be pretty damn thorough. And those pilings better be strong enough to hold up the entirety of Liverpool, in the event that sand base shifts.
How in the hell do you get nervous about silt, sand, and pilings?
I'm sure the experts know what they are doing, but it does concern me a bit. Probably unnecessarily.
86 Posted 21/02/2020 at 09:26:45
87 Posted 21/02/2020 at 09:33:37
Liverpool Echo (Nov 2018, so a year earlier) "If you live on Merseyside and earn less than £30,000 a year, you're not alone - nearly three quarters of all workers in the North West are on wages below this level".
88 Posted 21/02/2020 at 10:05:54
But in general, the major types of offshore oil rigs include the following: Fixed platform: anchored directly into the seabed, fixed-platform rigs consist of a tall, steel structure known as a "jacket" that rises up from the ocean to support a surface deck.
89 Posted 21/02/2020 at 10:33:58
The images have not only met about 95% of people's approval, they have actually exceeded our expectations of what a new modern build can achieve; in essence, it looks like something we can be proud to call home.
This is on top of the location, by the riverfront 10 minutes from the city centre and smack bang in the centre of a proposed regeneration of the docks that would literally extend the city "centre" as we know it. The process seems to have been handled impeccably and judging, by our more patient readers, exhaustively.
The petty comments about the attendance are ridiculous put against all this positivity, the time for that squabble has well passed. Why would you even get agitated by something that has been considered greatly and moved on now? Brian Williams correctly keeps pointing to the future increase or safe standing yet they still choose to moan and whinge about some magical figure.
Dennis and Graham, when this new stadium is complete, can you tell us where your seats are? â€” so I can make sure I sit far away from your mind-numbing negativity!
The "spade in the ground" moment is getting nearer and I can't wait.
90 Posted 21/02/2020 at 10:34:40
91 Posted 21/02/2020 at 10:44:31
Bobby #88, exactly, hence my question about bearing piles versus friction piles.
92 Posted 21/02/2020 at 10:54:40
We are building a new and historic stadium on the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey and Carlo Ancelotti is our manager!
Rejoice and believe, stand up tall, smile, then remember our song â€” the one that tells everyone why we have played more top-flight games than any other club in this country, and sing out loud, “We shall not be moved!â€
93 Posted 21/02/2020 at 10:57:55
94 Posted 21/02/2020 at 11:06:35
And that's not counting the weight of the concrete and steel used to build the structure. Like you I am hoping they have got it right.
I am pretty sure they will have given this subject a fair amount of thought - if it was my £500m I would certainly be asking the question.
Jerome # 83 - got you now.
95 Posted 21/02/2020 at 11:11:24
96 Posted 21/02/2020 at 11:12:22
The piles were then installed flush with the top of the piling mat without continuous reinforcement negating the need for pile capping, removing significant health and safety risk and expediting follow-on activities. The piles were installed on a 5m grid, lining up where required directly beneath the corresponding column of the SBR structure.
I think 'continuous reinforcement' and 'pile capping' refer to the top of the piles, where they would otherwise be integrally attached to the pile cap / base slab to transfer the weight of the entire structure above.
If settlement does occur, there's also a thing called negative skin friction, where it applies a down-drag force on the outer surface of the pile, increasing the load the pile has to take. This extra load can cause the piles to fail, but I think it's unlikely here.
Bobby (#88), it's not entirely like the oil rigs as they are entirely supported by the legs. Most buildings transfer some weight from their floor or base slabs directly to the ground below, and rely on it not settling. I'm just not sure what the balance is here between this and the pile load in their conceptual design.
ps: Bob (#80), thanks for spotting that mistake. I've corrected it now.
97 Posted 21/02/2020 at 11:13:01
The "intimidation" factor, making BMD an Everton Fortress is certainly going to be exaggerated as the Away fans gather in the shade of a miserable North stand (see the Elevation file), with little or no shelter from the Atlantic storm, having to huddle together and rotate who's on the outside, like penguins.
Meanwhile, we all gather in the South East corner, in the sunshine, under the trees, with a gentle breeze wafting through the wisps of hair growing from our ears, sipping ice cold beer, looking at our satisfied reflection in the glass of our new home. Which is nice!
98 Posted 21/02/2020 at 11:16:23
99 Posted 21/02/2020 at 11:17:40
100 Posted 21/02/2020 at 11:36:42
Try and look at the images of the new ground,maybe go down to the site now? Walk around Goodison inside and out, it has magic right throughout, it was monumental, look at the pictures of them floodlights ( another thread)and that amazing stand that sadly I didn't see, it's the past that has caught up with us, going the main stand or top balcony isn't a great experience today.
Don't get perplexed Dennis, if this doesn't happen now it never will, your imaginary 70,000 megadome is a fantasy based on fresh air, what appears to be happening at BMD is a lot of things but unambitious isn't one of them.
Can you and others who are bitching over capacity answer me one question?
Are Juventus ambitions?
101 Posted 21/02/2020 at 11:36:43
102 Posted 21/02/2020 at 11:46:29
103 Posted 21/02/2020 at 11:46:50
Take a (standing) ovation)!
104 Posted 21/02/2020 at 11:50:10
The facilities this will offer over the Grand Old Lady are immense. Clear sightlines for all the stadium; the scale of the hospitality areas and associated catering; proper viewing stations for disabled fans at a high level right around the stadium; wide concourses behind the stands; a large fan plaza.
Wind baffles positioned all around the sides to reduce the obvious risks, and you can see all sorts of analyses with the Environment Agency and United Utilities to mitigate any flood risk.
And, I'm no fluid mechanics engineer, but weren't the Liver Building and Liverpool One built on infilled docks?
My only concern is the travel plans which seem a little half-assed to me - Sandhills and shuttle buses won't cut it. Let's hope some private car parks (like Stanley Park and Alsop) emerge.
105 Posted 21/02/2020 at 11:55:26
Regarding UXB hazard, the RN attend Liverpool on a regular basis and sweep the river, can't remember if they do inside the docks.
Also, when United Utilities filled in the adjacent dock for their new building they used a system which appears similar to that proposed. Correct me if I am wrong.
Finally, is there mention of a landing stage? Would love one.
106 Posted 21/02/2020 at 12:05:19
107 Posted 21/02/2020 at 12:08:18
"Away fans gather in the shade of a miserable North stand (see the Elevation file), with little or no shelter from the Atlantic storm, having to huddle together and rotate who's on the outside, like penguins."
Having just watched the superb (as always) BBC nature documentary 'Dynasties' in which one episode showed King Penguins doing just that, your description and the mental imagery it conjured up gave me my first laugh out loud moment of the day.
108 Posted 21/02/2020 at 12:09:26
109 Posted 21/02/2020 at 12:28:16
As for ambition, I think we need look at the wider picture. In footballing terms, Moshiri (and Usmanov?) have invested millions in the squad (admittedly, much of it mis-spent), installed (at last!) a top manager and are committed to construction of a new stadium at enormous cost - the purchase of the Royal Liver Building is also not without significance. I don't see any lack of ambition there but in my view, such investment is no more than a "foot in the door" for Moshiri and Usmanov, the ultimate and greater prize being huge involvement in the wider regeneration of the area and the profits that will bring - that, again obviously my opinion, is the real reason for selection of BMD. I for one am delighted with the choice of location whatever their underlying motives might be.
110 Posted 21/02/2020 at 12:42:11
Nor does installing a three times Champions league league manager to oversee the transition.
We could build a bigger stadium in a field in Kirkby but lack of money and motivation play a part. Investors and stakeholders wouldn't invest a bag of beans into a field in Kirkby but give them a stadium as part of a redevelopment in the heart of Liverpool and they start to get " ambitious".
Bob the builder can't build stuff and Father Christmas doesn't exist. Motivated business people can and do.
111 Posted 21/02/2020 at 12:48:17
Well said, I echo your sentiments completely.
As for Dennis, I asked him a question, he couldn't be arsed considering it. Juventus are clearly not a team to be taken seriously.
He doesn't want 52 rising most likely to 60 but he doesn't want 70 either, he thinks we should have chose somewhere else but cant or wont say where, but he has ambitions and aspirations unlike us and the club who are doing nothing, he just doesn't like to talk about his details.
Some people unfortunately are addicted to moaning.
112 Posted 21/02/2020 at 13:06:07
However, the bean counters have run the figures and they have decided that the location itself is of intrinsic value and I have to agree. A 70k or whatever figure capacity on the outskirts of town wouldn't have the same impact on our profile as BMD will, with circa 52k.
We also have to consider that attendences play but a bit part in any clubs income nowadays as TV revenue dwarfs all other revenue.
it's quite possible that before this decade is out each club will broadcast it's own matches live around the planet and therefore quite possibly reduce the demand to visit the stadium compared to what is the norm today.
113 Posted 21/02/2020 at 13:13:39
53k seems perfect to ensure that intimate, loud, bear pit atmosphere.
114 Posted 21/02/2020 at 13:27:04
If it is staying at 52,800, then I would prefer 55.000, but I look at City, sometimes struggling to fill 55.000, and only United have consistently got over 60.000 fans into their ground, and this is what I think the capacity at Bramley Moore, will end up, once they have introduced safe standing?
Our neighbours are flying, but whose to say it will last? And I remember my childhood when the ground never looked empty with only 30.000 inside Goodison, but this would not be the case inside these all-seater stadiums, and you only have to see Man City on tv, to realise this.
This is a difference of opinion, that only the future will be able to answer, but I'm personally looking forward to our future, because I feel a lot different, now that the dark clouds of the Bill Kenwright era, (plucky little Everton) are slowly starting to disappear.
115 Posted 21/02/2020 at 13:28:18
What concerns me more is the many statements of the noise behind the team. Well I have been to many games where its been like a grave or worse on the players back constantly. So I would say, make the noise happen now and get behind the team ready for the move.
116 Posted 21/02/2020 at 13:31:13
117 Posted 21/02/2020 at 13:48:21
For him, Andre is ready to play, but he intends to sit down and talk with the player and others before Sunday's game to decide if he starts or sits on the bench.
When asked, he said he doesn't know of another example of a player suffering a similar injury returning to peak condition and ready to play as Andre has.
He said he is not surprised, knowing the medical staff we have at Finch Farm. It's his belief that the key moment was the excellent treatment they immediately gave him on the field following the break. Huge compliments and endorsement to the medical staff from the manager then.
Asked about Tom and Dom's dress sense and their trip to New York, he laughed and said he liked it and complimented them on their look on their return, adding next time they must take him with them!
Likely to be without Walcott on Sunday. He only started training again - and alone - today. Bernard is OK.
Avoided saying much about the Man City situation, other than to say we should aim for 5th which at least ensures a Europa League place at this time.
Also spoke in favour of Wegner's VAR proposal this week.
All very mundane, but all cheerfully and charmingly delivered by the affable Italian.
118 Posted 21/02/2020 at 14:05:22
However, like others, it's a non-sequitur to me that this equates to a lack of ambition and vision by the club. New stadium in a prime city centre location. New multiple-trophy winning manager widely regarded as one of the managerial greats. A DoF also with a highly regarded reputation. A billionaire accountant (and friends...) bankrolling the club.
That all smacks of big-time long term thinking, not small-time compromise.
BMD is potentially a huge game-changer for the club's image, standing and how it is perceived by others.
The constraints of the location is possibly determining the max capacity available to us, but again as others have stated, I for one am happy to concede that for the prime location where it will be built.
Nor is the capacity expansion compared to Goodison unsubstantial. It constitutes a 33% increase, possibly more if and when safe standing is allowed.
Who cares how big (and how great an eyesore) t'other lots shack is in comparison to BMD? It will forever be a patched up and makeover of a 1960s stadium, far from the city centre, unless and until they bulldoze it to the ground and do a complete rebuild.
Thanks to Steve Ferns I also have a better understanding as to why the club has gone done the route of having more exclusive premium suites as opposed to having more corporate boxes. The lounges can house more people and be affordable to far more people than renting a corporate box, so the club will make, not lose, money by doing this. Spurs did the same with their own White Hart Lane rebuild.
And like Martin @ 109 I've long held the belief that Everton FC is key to the grandiose plans of some seriously monied people. Moshiri bought the Liver Building and secured the leasehold on BMD for the stadium. A front and back build between those two compass points is going to make some people a LOT of money to the benefit of Everton FC also.
119 Posted 21/02/2020 at 14:05:50
They may be the lowest standard ticket, for seniors it's £299 for ANY part of the ground.
Of course, some junior tickets are even cheaper.
120 Posted 21/02/2020 at 14:25:05
It's the same in the city centre, because they are reducing the lanes right along the strand, (absolute madness, imo) which can only mean, that they don't really want cars going into the city anymore, and it won't be too long before we are faced with congestion charges, if we want to drive inside certain zones?
The scope for a decent sized train station, between Sandhills and Moorefields, is already there, (right opposite the magnificent re-transformation of the tobacco warehouses) possibly with enough land to replicate South Parkway, although I might actually be stretching my imagination just a little bit with these thoughts!
121 Posted 21/02/2020 at 14:43:14
Billy #111 You feel free to take Juventus as seriously as you like, they are of no interest to me, I'm an Evertonian. My apologies if you missed my previous response to you, but just to reiterate: “Firstly, I think we should maximise the potential of the chosen site right from the start so that we don't have to revisit issues like capacity in the future. Secondly, if the chosen location is too restrictive then maybe it's not the right location.â€ Please also try to understand that not everybody who has a different opinion to you is moaning, or negative, they just have a different opinion to you.
Tony #114 No criticism intended, I agree with much you've said. I just find it odd that some other people who disagree don't address the point of disagreement, ie capacity, & instead start disagreeing with points that haven't been mentioned at all, which only serves to muddy the waters. Although I do appreciate that the waters will be very muddy once construction is under way.
122 Posted 21/02/2020 at 14:54:41
As I will be well into my 80's when it is ready, I just hope there will be a seat available for me when I can watch a couple of games when I come back.
Although I left Liverpool in1976 I still call it home.
I watch a lot of football on T.V. as I can get every premier league game, and apart from Anfield there are very few stadiums that show full capacity.
So going on Evertons new ground capacity, unless they are fighting for the title, or a European cup, the capacity seems OK, and I am sure if it became necessary there are plans for expansion.
Just make sure it is built as quickly and as safely as possible as I may not be able to wait to long to watch a game, at what seems a magnificent ground to watch Everton.
123 Posted 21/02/2020 at 15:20:34
I think it is set in stone at the Highways Agency that all roadworks are secretly planned and no effort to contact the Utility Services about any renewal work they need to do is carried out. If the newly laid surface has not been dug up within a fortnight of the resurfacing being completed then it is proof miracles can happen.
124 Posted 21/02/2020 at 15:24:56
It will be the biggest disaster in the clubs history, nailed on, and only a few people seem to see it.
125 Posted 21/02/2020 at 15:26:32
Stadium capacity = 41,510
I think with 52,888 were fine, bigger isn't always better, well according to my Mrs.
126 Posted 21/02/2020 at 15:35:31
I also wonder if access is a requirement to limit the capacity as well as I would think there must be some regulations nowadays about how quickly an arrear can be evacuated in an emergency?
127 Posted 21/02/2020 at 16:05:57
Sorry for calling you a moaner, I now realise you were putting up a very considered counter argument with your detailed description of the ideal attendance befitting EFC and how you came your final figure? You're still being very coy about this.
The prime locations you have given us as a more suitable spot to build the stadium.? Oh go on give us just 1 of the many sites you know.
And I realise now that we shouldn't consider any other professional football club stadium as your an Evertonian and there is nothing to be learned outside of our unique bubble.
By the way I did read your response and as for people not addressing their disagreements! you are a prime example.
It turns out you would really like to stay at Goodison, that ship has sailed a long, long time ago.
Negativity?? Never, I understand you are a top Evertonian who has no interest about any other football club in the world.
Ignorance is bliss eh.
128 Posted 21/02/2020 at 16:13:29
129 Posted 21/02/2020 at 16:41:36
Were it down to me, I'd like nothing better than to stay at Goodison Park & see the redevelopment occur there.
It's not down to you, we're not staying at Goodison Park, the decision's been made.
I think we should maximise the potential of the chosen site right from the start so that we don't have to revisit issues like capacity in the future.
We CAN'T increase the capacity from the 52,888 from the start as that's the maximum possible due to a number of factors including, but not exclusive to, the footprint of the stadium and legislation regarding safe standing.
If the chosen location is too restrictive then maybe it's not the right location.
The location's been chosen. Nothing you say will change that.
So you see, you're not putting across constructive points, you're disagreeing about decisions that have already been made, and plans that are already well advanced and, for the most part, unchangeable.
Sounds like moaning, looks like moaning, smells like moaning.
My guess? It's moaning!
130 Posted 21/02/2020 at 16:41:58
131 Posted 21/02/2020 at 16:43:18
Park-and sail, is an obvious way to free traffic congestion, and a rail network that will also extend to stations around Anfield, must surely be in the long-term thinking of the City-planners, but we are effectively building a ground against a wall, and it's going to absolute chaos, without a much better service from the trains?
132 Posted 21/02/2020 at 16:43:54
I much prefer it to yours.
As for me talking nonsense? I can live with that.
I wouldn't describe your thoughts on BMD as nonsense as to be honest you never really offered anything to consider let alone describe as nonsense, oh sorry yes you did.
You want it to be bigger.
Thanks for a riveting debate, I will have to live with the fact that I couldn't comprehend "very simple things " and you with the fact you couldn't put them into words.
133 Posted 21/02/2020 at 17:00:26
Noise, atmosphere, passion, connection with the team, songs, sirens and unity. thats what will make the difference. Get into the opposition ears, through their hoodies and ludicrous Louis Vuitton headphones, from the minute they get off the bus!
134 Posted 21/02/2020 at 17:03:48
I have not been negative about the new stadium or the building of it or the move itself: it is only really the capacity I have an issue with and I am not alone in this. Funnily enough, my 'negativity' actually stems from positivity: deep in my heart a part of me believes (hopes) that we will one day return to being a top force in football.
In life generally, you have to believe you can win and succeed and conquer all because, if you do not believe, particularly in sport, you will fail. I would, therefore, like to see a stadium with a larger starting capacity than 52,888 because I believe that we could fill it and we could again have a team and players worthy of the Everton name and fit to wear the shirt.
Ways can be found to fill a larger stadium where there is a will. I believe, Billy.
135 Posted 21/02/2020 at 17:12:43
You've avoided the critical question in all this, Richard.
Will there be fish on a stick for circling penguins?
136 Posted 21/02/2020 at 17:24:28
For a small fee, foil wrapped Baked Potatoes available for Away fans to carry on their feet and pass to each other to keep warm. All monitored by a squad of bearded scientists from a tent located by the Media centre. Wish them well.
137 Posted 21/02/2020 at 17:28:23
Tbh, if you don't think we should have an opinion on anything outside of our control then coming on a forum to express it seems rather pointless, as does the existence of the forum. Yet here we all are, & guess what - you have no control over my opinion & so, by your own definition, you are merely moaning about it.
138 Posted 21/02/2020 at 17:42:40
Thanks for agreeing with my nonsense!!
Thanks for explaining your thinking, I understand supporters' concerns as far as the attendance is concerned because, once it is built, only the rail seating will increase it, and any opportunity to change will effectively be gone.
BUT... I believe the capacity is round about right. With rail seating, it will be touching the magical 60k people seem to be fixed on, I believe, given the considerable time they have spent on all other aspects, then this number 52,888 was reached after serious research. As Brian states, the constraints of the site dictate this also, and not forgetting the design.
I am well happy with the design, the location and the capacity (rail seating inc). On a day like today, when it appears we are a little step closer to this, it is extremely churlish and frankly puzzling or perplexing as Dennis describes it to be nitpicking over issues that are way beyond debate.
I really believe, if this goes to plan, all those worries will soon fade away.
Here's to a new ground that we can all be proud of.
139 Posted 21/02/2020 at 17:43:47
I received a link to the People's Project website..and the Lowdown on our Planning Application...Interesting reading (if you have time).
140 Posted 21/02/2020 at 17:53:58
The issue is pricing. The least expensive walk-up tickets now cost a brutal â‚¬160 (they raised prices again when they signed Ronaldo). And that's an intentional strategy for Juve -- it's their way of trying to keep the Ultras out, hoping they can't afford the tickets. They'd rather the seats stay empty than filled with right-wing maniacs.
141 Posted 21/02/2020 at 17:58:03
Transport; I really don't see the need to bring cars right into the area (and pay for the privilege). Why not just park somewhere near a station and get the train in. That's what I'll be doing. if I'm still around!!
142 Posted 21/02/2020 at 19:04:32
143 Posted 21/02/2020 at 19:19:30
144 Posted 21/02/2020 at 19:44:10
I do think that a 53, 000 capacity does show lack of ambition. Paul the Esk, I seem to remember, did point out the need for a larger capacity if Everton were to fulfil projections on a future realistic financial plan.
But in the case of Moshiri and Usmanov, in my opinion, there is a wider plan than Bramley-Moore Dock, when the whole Peel site comes into play, with Everton as an anchor tenant or purchaser.
I expect changes down the line as Moshiri and Usmanov come more to the forefront in controlling the development.
145 Posted 21/02/2020 at 20:03:44
146 Posted 21/02/2020 at 20:17:28
It was only 6 or so years ago we went 2 years without paying a transfer fee for players
Our fans, man ðŸ‘¨
147 Posted 21/02/2020 at 20:23:12
Why the stupid emoji face? Was it in response to Jerome (who rightly stated in my opinion) saying that the 53000 capacity showed a lack of ambition?
You have already tried to bully Dennis Stevens (with your post at 129) for simply having an opinion and voicing that opinion. As Dennis rightly said, this is a forum, the main purpose of which IS to offer opinions.
148 Posted 21/02/2020 at 20:27:11
There is a wider plan for Bramley-Moore Dock. There wouldn't be for a 65,000 stadium built on a rabbit field in Kirkby.
149 Posted 21/02/2020 at 20:29:08
150 Posted 21/02/2020 at 20:43:29
I am also one more scouser living in Canada close to Niagara Falls. I have been Canada since 1963. I left Liverpool but Liverpool never left me. I don't mean the RS. Blue through and through. I will also be in my mid eighties when the Stadium opens but I WILL be there.
I am bringing my son John "Everton" and my son-in -aw Dan over in four weeks to see the derby. I hope to meet up with John McFarlane Snr in the Central Hotel at 12:00 noon in preparation for beating Liverpool the next day. My son will be celebrating his 50th Birthday. This trip is the best present he could ever wish for. Two years ago, I came over for the derby with my other son Andrew "Goodison". Had a great time and always will. I would love to meet any other ToffeeWebbers who can make it to the Central.
Regarding the new Stadium, I can only think of positives. As regards the financing, I don't care as long as I can get a seat. In life, there are only two things that are not important to me: (1) Money, because I never had enough; and (2) Liverpool FC, because I had far too much.
151 Posted 21/02/2020 at 20:49:14
How can building a Dan Meis designed stadium in the heart of Liverpool, with a three times champions league manager to oversee transition, lack ambition?
Everton in a dream could build a 70,000-seater stadium in a field in the stix but no-one with any sense or more than a pot to piss in would invest.
The new stadium's situation as part of a redevelopment in the heart of Liverpool, is what attracts business, investors and stakeholders.
Without these, there would be no ambition at all. We'd be left with a few 'nothing but the best' crusties watching the Bullens Road fall about their ears.
152 Posted 21/02/2020 at 20:54:47
Can they also say whether they would abandon Bramley-Moore Dock if another bigger site was available?
Graham, you explained honestly why you thought a bigger capacity was important to you well, but to accuse Brian of bullying Dennis? Come on... Brian was, like you say, expressing his opinion, a lot better than Dennis did.
153 Posted 21/02/2020 at 20:57:52
Bullying? I've heard it all now!
154 Posted 21/02/2020 at 21:17:52
The demographics of those attending football matches has also changed the atmosphere within.
What was it John Lennon said?
"I'd like to ask your help. Will the people in the cheaper seats clap your hands? And for the rest of you, if you'll just rattle your jewelry..."
155 Posted 21/02/2020 at 21:28:15
This is true.
156 Posted 21/02/2020 at 21:48:07
It's just my opinion of course, but I am pretty sure I will be proved right.
At present, it's very difficult for families to attend a game and sit together unless you own a clutch of season tickets in a row. Prices on StubHub have risen in recent years as well so getting a family (2 adults & 2 kids) to a game is nigh on impossible And even a Dad and two kids is very hard. I know this from personal experience.
Once this beautiful new stadium is built, the demand to go the match will skyrocket, especially as there'll be no restricted views etc. I think a lot of families will want to go. 13,000 extra tickets sounds a fair few, but I seriously think that a lot of fans simply aren't attending much at present because they can't, and that's when we have sold out every league game for over 3 years now and at a time when the football has mostly been rubbish.
I can only hope that safe standing happens, plus there's obviously room to put an extra tier on the â€˜away end' and lose that big glass screen, so hopefully expansion, albeit limited in scope, will be possible.
157 Posted 21/02/2020 at 22:16:14
That's most of an extra 13,000 spaces gone already. There's plenty of fans who don't want a season ticket or can't attend every match too, so an extra 20,000 on what we have now seems about right.
158 Posted 21/02/2020 at 22:17:16
I believe the architects were asked to design a modern world class stadium and given a set area of land to be used, and this has been achieved. You can't build a 2,000 sq ft house on a 1,000sq ft of land unless you build it higher.
With a limited amount of land plus trying to keep the heritage of the area. Going higher to increase capacity will mean, to the spectators at the top, it will seem like watching little stick men kicking a marble.
With the amount of close scrutiny in the design and details, I am sure the stadium has been designed to give the supporters a first class facility, to enjoy a matchday in a secure safe environment.
The designers using other stadiums for comparison have fixed this capacity to offer comfort and safety to the home and away supporters on matchday.
As a proud Everton supporter, I wish I was able to attend every game at this stadium.
159 Posted 21/02/2020 at 22:30:46
I was at the Spurs stadium for the first time this week for their Champions League match. What a sensational piece of work that place is. It is wonderful! Got me excited about Bramley-Moore Dock.
The hardest thing being an Evertonian is getting in the away end when we play on the road. We must sell out every away game!
160 Posted 21/02/2020 at 22:34:08
10 to 12,000?
How many of those actually buy one is another matter, of course...
161 Posted 21/02/2020 at 23:12:36
162 Posted 21/02/2020 at 23:19:46
I've never been to the new Spurs stadium, but I should imagine ours will be a fairly simplistic affair next to it.
Except for our new away end, each stand is the same height and with two tiers and it's square shaped.
I am hoping that they do something slighty different in the final build to what's in the graphics now. Maybe 3 tiers on the mainstand, 2 tiers on the opposite stand and one huge wall for the home end. Something to give a bit of character to each part of the ground as we have now at Goodison Park.
As it is it looks just a bit too uniform for my tastes, however before someone calls me a kill-joy, I am excited we're getting it and it will be a big improvement over what we have.
163 Posted 21/02/2020 at 23:45:00
And actually, 3 of the sides of the Spurs stadium are basically the same with just the â€˜big home end' breaking it up, so you could certainly say that Bramley-Moore Dock will be far less uniform than the Tottenham Hotspur stadium, not the other way around.
I think ours is going to be a match for theirs in terms of style, the location of ours is clearly more spectacular, but theirs is more suited to the size of their fan base than ours will be ie. Ours is just a bit too small in my opinion, needs another 5,000 or so seats to satisfy demand.
The Spurs stadium is outstanding and is a the benchmark for all new ones.
164 Posted 21/02/2020 at 00:02:50
Yep, I've just had a look at the Spurs stadium and as you've said it is uniform on both sides.
My basic point, though, is that, if you have a look at the graphics of our new stadium, interior wise, then to me, it looks 3 sides all the same with 2 tiers and a slighty smaller away end.
I had a decent look at the graphics when they first came out and there was actually a "mish-mash" of different interiors, I'm curious if the design is fixed at this stage.
If you fast-forward the video to 2:04 and watch, it's very uniform and the home end does have 2 tiers also:
I did though see in some of the graphics released by EFC, a 3-tier mainstand and solid wall home end.
I can't wait to see what we get or maybe the design is now fixed at two tiers all around?
165 Posted 22/02/2020 at 00:15:06
Karl's post is correct but the waiting list (for an underperforming side), as he says, is actually over 11,000. Some of those 8,000+ must want more than one season ticket.
The actual figures are in the planning document. Yes, I'm one of those saddos who's actually wading through it!!
166 Posted 22/02/2020 at 00:36:17
167 Posted 22/02/2020 at 02:08:22
168 Posted 22/02/2020 at 02:28:52
Imagine what the demand would be in a state-of-the-art stadium with a half-decent team on the pitch!
169 Posted 22/02/2020 at 07:50:49
We cant just add 11000 to our average gate now as week to week amongst those on the waiting list will be people who are actually attending the match, they are purchasing tickets individually.
It is to be assumed someone who puts themself on a waiting list for matches actually makes the effort to go anyway.
I don't think we have 11000 fans sitting at home listening to the radio.
What the real difference makes could be 3-4 000 who knows? It's hard to establish.
170 Posted 22/02/2020 at 08:01:07
Hard to quantify, but just by looking at the upswing in attendances after ALL new stadium builds, they have all been more than 33%.
171 Posted 22/02/2020 at 08:11:46
buying individualy, I have had season tickets, I have gone just a handful of games or missed whole seasons for a number of reasons ie work, kids, financial.
We are hard to predict, you are correct about the upswing most definitely but if our attendance now is 40,000 and the new stadium is 53 rising to near 60 if ( more like when) rail seating is introduced then that is a near 50% increase on Goodison!
Surely that is enough,
172 Posted 22/02/2020 at 10:16:14
173 Posted 22/02/2020 at 10:56:35
That's a good point regarding the corporate seats, never thought of that.
Demand for the "regular" season tickets could outstrip supply, certainly pre any capacity increase.
174 Posted 22/02/2020 at 12:27:16
The capacity seems about right to me, about 30% more than our current capacity. Safe standing might have been brought in by then, making it a 50% increase for us from our current maximum. I hope that I will be able to buy tickets for my infrequent visits.
Very exciting stuff
175 Posted 22/02/2020 at 13:40:25
Good point about corporate seats eating into the regular seating and season ticket demand... But, how many of the new corporate crowd will have previously had season tickets or just went occasionally? Therefore freeing up seating.
I realise Corporate boxes are for entertaining guests generally and not regular Evertonians. I'm not trying to be pedantic but it just shows you how hard it is to predict a future average crowd for EFC.
We go by our instinct and common sense mostly as Evertonians. We have to remember that, if this work started tomorrow, it will be 3 years off and surely safe standing will be accepted then.
176 Posted 22/02/2020 at 13:55:31
I'm still working my way through all the provided documents, but I think you are mistaken, or possibly confusing things, when you say at least 5k of the near 53k capacity will be taken up with premium corporate seating.
The new stadium, from memory, hasn't radically increased the number of exclusive corporate boxes over the existing numbers at Goodison Park.
The path Everton wish to go down is similar to Spurs at their new build who also reduced the number of exclusive corporate boxes. What both clubs are doing is expanding the number of match day suites â€“ eg, from Goodison: The Captain's Table, Alex Young Suite, etc â€“ which offers an upmarket match day experience â€“ meal, drinks etc â€“ for a more expensive season ticket.
The club came out a few months again saying all Goodison Park suites had undergone a refurbishment to experiment with the likely livery and look for the Bramley-Moore Dock suites.
There is NO corporate box involved in this arrangement. You retain your seat in the stands like every other 'commoner', but your membership allows you access to one of the exclusive matchday suites.
As already exists at Goodison, this caters for a range of different budgets and makes it far more accessible to many more people than stumping up for a corporate box for the season.
We will generate MORE matchday money from this model than squeezing in more corporate boxes which only rob space for more bums on seats.
177 Posted 22/02/2020 at 14:01:39
Thinking about it, 5k in corporate boxes would involve a huge number of boxes!
178 Posted 22/02/2020 at 14:13:22
If Bramley-Moore Dock was catering for 5k corporate customers, we'd need 250 boxes using the same maximum capacity as Wembley.
179 Posted 22/02/2020 at 14:26:40
I recommend people look at the PDF Alternative Sites Assessment, Part 1 of 3.
A 'mere' 259 pages long, it goes into enormous detail of:
* the history of Goodison
* the restraints of rebuilding Goodison for modern day purposes
* the history of possible stadium moves in the last 20 years
* the criteria used in identifying North Liverpool as the most viable location for a new stadium
* no fewer than 50 (F-I-F-T-Y!!!) possible stadium locations around the city that were evaluated in detail
* six key assessments made of each potential site (size; site-specific planning issues; if available; if viable; accessible; visual/environmental impact)
* a 5-6 page detailed report of each and every potential site
There is not an alternative location anyone sniffing at the (real or imagined) 'costraints' of the Bramley-Moore Dock site could possibly come up with as a better alternative that wasn't considered.
180 Posted 22/02/2020 at 14:35:14
And I can't wait to walk up to that shiny, iconic, cathedral of footy for the first time!
181 Posted 22/02/2020 at 14:43:20
182 Posted 22/02/2020 at 15:07:50
Part 3 is just 7 pages and compares the size of the BMD project (8.7 hectares) to recent stadium builds:
Spurs 8.9 hectares
Arsenal 7.5 hectares
WHU 15 hectares (not really a like-for-like example as it includes the entire Olympic Park complex, custom built for the games, not football)
The part 3 document acknowledges BMD represents a 'significant challenge to develop a suitable design to accomodate 52,888 capacity stadium', but that the design is 'extremely efficient', allowing as it does space for other key features associated with the stadium.
Other than safe standing being introduced, I think it's fair to say there is little or no scope to increase the near 53k capacity as presented.
183 Posted 22/02/2020 at 15:35:26
184 Posted 22/02/2020 at 15:41:33
Or have you city-based TWers got together and formed a team..?
185 Posted 22/02/2020 at 15:54:40
186 Posted 22/02/2020 at 15:56:36
The biggest waste of space of the lot given my gammy knee these days.
187 Posted 22/02/2020 at 17:14:53
188 Posted 22/02/2020 at 20:36:46
I agree with Graham (32), Dennis (38), Richard (40), and Joe (44) about the capacity and the ambition. I have all through this (the survey's etc) said it should be 60,000 plus and gave my reasons; many of you guys say the same as me. I've just sent an email to the planning application for whatever that is worth.
I think it's short sighted by the club and the architect to be planning a new stadium for what we could probably fill NOW at Goodison Park as it is, if it was 52,000. Cheesy, I know, but I'm going to say it: Build it and they will come.
John (39) on other revenue streams, I'm totally with that. Again, the club is not at the races as far as I can see.
Ray (47) on safe standing. Time and time again, people say this, but at the moment legislation is 1:1 â€“ it won't increase the capacity. Why can't the club just grow a pair and join the elite teams? We're a big club, we get big crowds, and we will be successful again.
I get a bit miffed with people who say it's more than we've had as an average attendance, or the increase is a third more than we get in now, which doesn't mean didly. You want big crowds, you build big stadiums. I don't buy this about having a demand for tickets, why restrict the capacity and shut out new fans from going to Bramley-Moore Dock?
189 Posted 22/02/2020 at 20:55:30
Everton really is missing a trick starting with such a small capacity and safe standing will add little, if any, to that figure.
190 Posted 22/02/2020 at 21:04:59
Manchester United apply for permission to install rail seating at Old Trafford
Safe standing seems inevitable but, as someone posted above, is it just a 1:1 ratio or can we get a 1.5:1 ratio to get the uplift in capacity, as I have seen mentioned before (I think on these hallowed pages)?
191 Posted 22/02/2020 at 21:39:47
There are lounge members who sit in "normal" seats in various parts of the ground. Looking forward to Bramley-Moore Dock corporate guesting refers to private boxes, I believe, while there will still be various lounges where the patrons of those lounges sit in "normal" seats.
Season ticket holders can choose to have an "upgraded" matchday experience by being a member of one of the various lounges and they sit in their own seat every game just like other season ticket holders.
Corporate boxes could be populated by different people every game. They count towards the capacity but corporate boxes would no way account for 5k of the capacity, more like a couple or few hundred.
192 Posted 22/02/2020 at 22:12:56
193 Posted 22/02/2020 at 22:18:33
194 Posted 22/02/2020 at 23:53:12
I'm sure it's a fine piece of work; however, the cynic in me recalls the club adopting a similar line back in the days of Desperation Kirkby. Although, they must have overlooked Bramley-Moore Dock as, if I recall correctly, I don't think they believed there were any suitable sites in the City of Liverpool.
However, surely much of this is moot, as only Bramley-Moore Dock will be likely to lead to further opportunities as the redevelopment of that part of the City unfolds over the years to come.
Presumably, an opportunity a savvy businessman would not want to miss out on. Indeed, it might even be that prospect that has enabled the Club to move on from the Kenwright era.
195 Posted 23/02/2020 at 11:06:12
Standard home seats: 43,880
Premium seats: 5,334
Box seats: 448
Away seats: 2,968
Non-revenue seats: 258
196 Posted 23/02/2020 at 11:24:32
The Principality is built on about 5 hectares, we have 8.5 available. I appreciate that this doesn't accommodate areas such as the fan zone or car parking (there is an NCP literally across the road though). It does make me wonder why we can't look at finding a few thousand more seats...
197 Posted 23/02/2020 at 12:22:49
Have a look at:
198 Posted 23/02/2020 at 13:00:39
199 Posted 23/02/2020 at 13:05:24
Thanks for that link, Ray. I looked at the gallery...
Do the photos in the gallery show a 2:1 ratio because it looks to me that, when the seats are down, there are (obviously) two people accommodated for, but when the seats are locked up it looks like there are then two "steps" so room for four people.
Or am I looking at that wrong?
200 Posted 23/02/2020 at 13:12:29
Using those figures, if even just 10k of the 19k capacity of the home end at BMD was converted for dual purpose, the capacity could go from 52,888 to 61,888!
Now that's exciting to me!
201 Posted 23/02/2020 at 13:14:47
You don't think Kenwright pays for a season ticket do you???
202 Posted 23/02/2020 at 13:15:54
203 Posted 23/02/2020 at 13:18:59
204 Posted 23/02/2020 at 13:23:34
205 Posted 23/02/2020 at 14:29:55
It confirms what I said earlier in the thread. Less than 500 for corporate boxes, more than 10 times more for 'Premium Seats' which will include access to the suite of your choice.
Brian @ 198, non-revenue seats will probably be reserved for invited guests and visiting dignatories, such as England manager Gareth Southgate. Could this possibly include a ticket allocation for players also?
206 Posted 23/02/2020 at 14:34:15
I've mentioned a couple of times that the safe standing may well be implemented (and legal) by the time Bramley-Moore Dock is nearing completion and that that should allay some of the fears of the more negative posters on here. AND it's adaptable!
207 Posted 23/02/2020 at 14:46:39
208 Posted 23/02/2020 at 15:14:32
209 Posted 23/02/2020 at 15:15:39
210 Posted 23/02/2020 at 15:24:56
211 Posted 23/02/2020 at 15:55:05
The reason people want to see a bigger capacity is simply so that more Evertonians can get to watch Everton play & also, hopefully, the Club will make more money on match days. This is based on a belief that there is sufficient demand to regularly fill a larger ground, hence the disappointment that the proposed new stadium has such a low capacity.
I'm also all in favour of the introduction of safe-standing, but we don't know whether or when this will be allowed or the ratio involved.
I don't see the desire for a larger capacity as negative at all, greedy perhaps, but greedy for the benefit of supporters & the Club. I see that as being positive.
212 Posted 23/02/2020 at 16:39:03
Thanks for the link. The Echo website is predictably awful, pop ups, adverts etc but the Club statements regarding starting and finishing dates is very interesting.
Fingers crossed, with the green light, the building work will start this September, that's only 6-7 months away, they predict that the ground would be ready for September 2023, meaning we would be homeless for a month or 4 games.
The completion dates seem unrealistically accurate for a build of this sort but who am I to disagree?? I'm thinking of Tottenham's delayed start but every project is different so we have to have faith this will go to the timeline predicted.
I didn't notice any mention of the redevelopment of Goodison but we would have to imagine this would be underway from the end of season 22-23, one interesting thing this throws up is where we play for this period of exile? ... Anfield?? Its a very interesting thing to ponder as we don't have the benefit of a National stadium or equivalent to use.
I'm curious to what other TWebbers think?
213 Posted 23/02/2020 at 23:49:48
Given that most construction projects run over schedule I guess we'll be using Goodison for the first half of the season.
Of course this throws up some problems with tickets etc.
214 Posted 24/02/2020 at 07:05:43
I think that when people constantly state that Bramley-Moore Dock will never happen, that, despite real experts pointing out reasons for an initial planned capacity of 52,888, and posters ignoring the probability or possibility of up to 60,000 with a rail seating system which I believe WILL happen before completion, then the likes of me can despair at some of the negative posts.
Man Utd are exploring the safe standing route. It exists in Scotland, it will arrive here and before Bramley-Moore Dock is completed.
Have some faith.
215 Posted 24/02/2020 at 08:51:55
Although I've seen a few remarks against safe standing, most of us seem to be in favour. However, I suspect the Government to move slowly on the issue and so, when it is introduced, which I'm sure it will be, I expect them to be cautious as regards ratios, probably 1:1.5.
216 Posted 24/02/2020 at 11:12:09
Regarding both the team, performance and likelihood of Bramley-Moore Dock ever being built. It's borderline depressing. Like you say, the majority are pleased and looking forward to it opening, albeit with some reservations re the capacity. I do believe that Meis etc is aware that, on occasions, 52,888 may not be enough. I also think that the safe standing option is to the forefront of his mind looking forward.
I said on here months ago that I would like to see a plan which saw the, say, back ten rows closed and even hidden by a removable screen so that we wouldn't have the embarrassment of 10,000 empty seats like those at Man City last week. These back rows could be opened up for sell-out games against Liverpool or Manchester United or Champions League games.
217 Posted 24/02/2020 at 11:49:27
I asked Dan Meis at St Luke's about a variable capacity, something that the Lucas Oil Stadium had. It was a straight No. But makes so much sense, especially your suggestion of the taking a few rows out at the back.
218 Posted 24/02/2020 at 11:54:50
219 Posted 24/02/2020 at 12:32:05
I am sure during the consultation period when many Blues were disappointed with the limit being set at 52,000 for Bramley-Moore Dock.
We were led to believe that, although the initial limit was 52,000, if the law was changed to allow safe standing, that the limit would increase to 60,000. Now, I can't be sure but I think this came from the club, and was reported in the Echo.
220 Posted 24/02/2020 at 12:49:25
221 Posted 24/02/2020 at 14:14:35
I'm also concerned that the Bramley-Moore Dock site is being portrayed as such that the stadium will not be expandable in the future. If so, it could become a problem at some point if the funding of football from TV diminishes and the volume of bums on seats becomes of greater significance once more.
As you said, different people have various reservations but, in the end, we all want a successful outcome for the Club and the supporters.
222 Posted 24/02/2020 at 15:36:23
I wasn't aware of anything in the Echo. I usually give that a wide berth to be honest.
David, I posted a link which shows different ratios other than 1:1 and I would imagine that, if this were to be successfully trialled in a more “generousâ€ ratio, say 1:1.5 or better, then it would be employed.
If Bramley-Moore Dock were to sell out every week, then it would be folly not to increase the capacity.
As Dennis says, we all want what's best for the club and supporters.
223 Posted 24/02/2020 at 17:31:29
Strange... give him the end of the week, he will be saying that the savvy businessmen (his words) behind Bramley-Moore Dock have ambition.
224 Posted 24/02/2020 at 17:36:57
Any chance of pointing me in the right direction with regard to the law stating that safe standing is 1:1 only?
225 Posted 24/02/2020 at 17:48:37
I don't think it's necessary for me to follow the fortunes of other clubs, such as Manchester City, in order to express my view regarding the issue of empty spaces at their grounds that other people have raised as a concern.
My view is that I don't expect Everton to suffer the same issues other people have identified in their comments regarding attendance. It is simply a view of how I see Everton and Evertonians â€“ not a reflection of my interest in other clubs, in which I remain steadfastly not arsed.
As regards the savvy businessmen behind the Bramley-Moore Dock stadium project, I've never said that they don't have ambition. I have said that I consider a higher capacity for our proposed stadium would be more ambitious than the one proposed... and so I was perplexed to find that those in favour of such were being told we were "negative".
226 Posted 24/02/2020 at 18:01:50
It may have been me who mentioned Man City first. I said that the thousands of empty seats at their game last week was embarrassing and I could see that happening at Bramley-Moore Dock some weeks if we had 60,000 capacity stadium.
227 Posted 24/02/2020 at 18:26:18
228 Posted 24/02/2020 at 18:28:40
As for you commenting on Ray's comparison with Man City, am I supposed to believe you made this comment blindly, not knowing anything about Man City's well-documented attendances? Knowing and trying to make comparisons with other top-flight clubs doesn't make you unfaithful to Everton, you know?
The idea that nothing can be gained by looking at and learning from clubs like Juventus and Man City is incredibly short-sighted. I find it hard to believe you genuinely think this way. Thank God the people running the club don't.
229 Posted 24/02/2020 at 18:47:05
I realise it was you who first mentioned Man City's attendance issues, I have enjoyed this thread and your detailed contributions.
I, like yourself, have found a few of the negative posts quite depressing. By these, I don't mean the posters who offer alternative views, I enjoy having a previous opinion challenged.
It is the posters like Dennis, who offers nothing. He still can't state what his ideal attendance is. This on a 2-day thread dominated mostly by our future capacity. When I asked him to consider Juventus, his condescending reply is, he can't be arsed!
Dennis goes on to say I'm talking nonsense by basically liking what the club and Dan Meis have designed as opposed to his grand vision. Dennis is the positive one, you see; he has vision and ambition â€“ he just can't really explain it very well or offer a comparison because he doesn't know anything outside of Goodison and Everton (his words).
230 Posted 24/02/2020 at 18:52:21
I actually said, "I think the Board still don't really appreciate the scale of the Club they're running." That doesn't mean that they don't have ambition, nor does it mean that I think that they don't have ambition. It just means that I think they could be more ambitious, at least as regards the issue of capacity.
As for Man City, their attendance woes have been mentioned by others, so I'm not claiming ignorance, merely lack of interest. My view that we wouldn't suffer likewise is a positive view I have of our Club and our supporters, regardless of what does or doesn't happen elsewhere. I may be fantastically wide of the mark there and perhaps we'll struggle to even maintain the attendances we currently achieve, but I can only express my view as I personally see it.
I've not suggested "that nothing can be gained by looking at and learning from clubs like Juventus and Man City", merely that I can't claim to have done so. I commend you for your insight into the thought processes of "the people running the club", I can claim no such knowledge.
231 Posted 24/02/2020 at 19:07:44
Also, Everton's plans, in areas earmarked for safe standing, have measurements, which using the correct formula, equate to a ratio of 1:1.5 (rounded down), so it looks like a capacity increase is being "built in" from the start.
This info wasn't received from the groundsman's dog's hairdresser's cousin but I'm afraid that's as much info as you're gonna get!
Call me whatever yer like!
232 Posted 24/02/2020 at 19:15:45
233 Posted 24/02/2020 at 19:17:13
234 Posted 24/02/2020 at 19:24:21
235 Posted 24/02/2020 at 19:25:13
236 Posted 24/02/2020 at 19:26:08
237 Posted 24/02/2020 at 19:26:16
I know that Man Utd have applied to have 1,500 safe standing places and, if approved, they expect to complete the safe standing spaces before the end of the season. But I still haven't seen any definite plans for us to incorporate safe standing areas in Bramley-Moore Dock, or how many extra places this would create.
238 Posted 24/02/2020 at 19:30:27
The ratio I thought was 1:1.5 meaning a 13,000 stand becomes 19,500, which means 53,000 becomes 59,000+
That is just one stand. The idea that any club would go to this length and cost to get a 1:1 ratio (the same number?) is ludicrous.
Some posters refused to consider this option whilst moaning and groaning about the 52,888 capacity, I am honestly puzzled why a lot of people weren't considering this effect more seriously, the images on the fly-through actually show rail seats.
239 Posted 24/02/2020 at 19:57:34
If you don't wish to be considered part of the "this club lacks ambition" crowd, I suggest you don't follow up a post that describes Everton as unambitious and pathetic with a post appearing to validate it. "Aye", you said, as in "Aye, that's right".
Thank you for recognizing my amazing insight into the thought processes of the people running the club but it's nothing really... honest, I actually followed the announcement and press releases and engaged in the questionnaire. I followed it all on ToffeWeb, believe it or not!!
And I have come to the conclusion that they have got this right. Yes, Dan Meis, the fella who has designed other stadiums and stuff, has got this right!! Or maybe, like you, they just ignored everything out of the EFC bubble and plucked it out of the air (again, your sarcastic answer to Brian) suggesting how the figure 52,888 was reached.
I have said enough on the subject; you have posted lots but said virtually nothing.
240 Posted 24/02/2020 at 20:02:47
241 Posted 24/02/2020 at 20:15:11
242 Posted 24/02/2020 at 20:18:18
243 Posted 24/02/2020 at 20:25:01
244 Posted 24/02/2020 at 20:35:51
245 Posted 24/02/2020 at 23:21:48
The home end (13,000) won't be converted in entirety to safe standing. If you had any prior knowledge from the early plans it was for about half way with both the goal ends to be rail seating.
The legislation is currently 1:1 this means no increase in capacity. Unless of course it changes. We haven't even got safe standing yet in the top two divisions.
246 Posted 24/02/2020 at 00:39:32
247 Posted 25/02/2020 at 00:58:58
The site footprint
The height restrictions for the area
Line of site rules for seating / viewing
He can't get more rows of seats on the North or South stands due to the boundaries.
He can't go wider on the East or West stands because without going higher the lines of site would be adversely affected ( you would be looking at the back of someone's head).
The more I look at this the greater sense I get of the scale of this structure - imposing is how I would describe it.
To give you an idea of its scale the edge of the roof trusses are 46 metres (150') above ground - the actual full height of the trusses is about 54 metres (177') above ground. That is about the same height as the facades (walls) of the Liver Buildings.
The top row of seats on the East and West stands is about 38 metres (125') above ground and about 70 metres (76 yards) by line of site from the touch line. If you were sitting in the top row of one of these stands and you looked at your opposite number on the other side of the stadium he (or she) would be nearly 200 metres (
281218 yards) away from you.
The roof structure is also very clever the way it cantilevers to almost the edge of the pitch. This place is going to be very noisy and the opposition will feel well and truly trapped.
So in summary it is still a big thumbs up to Dan Meis for me but, based on the above, 52,888 it is and will be for its lifetime.
248 Posted 25/02/2020 at 01:17:22
249 Posted 25/02/2020 at 01:31:18
Almost three of our American Football fields, or come to think of it three lengths of any football / soccer pitch, from seat to seat at the top row is simply massive.
It's also good to know that seating was basically maximized with the footprint and restrictions in place. Seems maybe Everton aren't aiming as low as some might think.
I think every Blue in and around Liverpool will be thrilled with this stadium upon completion. It sounds like a gem, and certainly looks like a gem in all the renderings I've seen.
250 Posted 25/02/2020 at 08:47:40
Apologies for the mistake with the home end capacity. That however is the extent of the misinformation on my part I hope.
We know the rules are 1:1 at the moment, you've told us before. However, if you read post 231, it explains MY reason for being optimistic as I, and lots of others, believe change is on the way. I believe it even more after yesterday.
251 Posted 25/02/2020 at 09:07:17
Exactly what ratio will then be allowed will depend on a variety of factors, e.g. row depth, size of exits, size of concourse etc. As far as the row depth is concerned, it's a simple bit of arithmetic: it must be deep enough to accommodate the tipped-up rail seat (50mm) and two steps, each of 350mm. Everton's plans show rows in the areas earmarked for safe standing with a depth of 750mm and they mention two 350mm steps. They also say that the seats will be 460mm wide. So it's then a calculation: 460mm (seat width) x 700mm (space in front of the seat) = 0.322 square metres. The regs say 0.21 sqm per standing fan, so 0.322 divided by 0.21 gives you the ratio of standing fans to seat places = (rounded down) 1.5.
So basically Everton are planning for a 1/1.5 change.
252 Posted 25/02/2020 at 10:34:51
253 Posted 26/02/2020 at 03:19:49
254 Posted 26/02/2020 at 06:35:14
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