Everton squander more points in the agonizing slog for European football

Not a lot of backup to change things around much.

Subs: Sigurdsson, King, Nkounkou, Godfrey, Gbamin, Virgínia, Broadhead, John, Tyrer

Looks like a flexible back 3/5 combo again.

Pleased to see Townsend only on the bench for them. He's caused us problems in the past.

Ancelotti needs to set up a defense that won't concede goals instead of experimenting all of the time at home, that has ended in defeat after defeat.

A lot depends on James. It would be nice to get to a comfortable position and be able to give JP Gbamin a run out.

Yeah, Townsend could create dangerous long shots like Burnley did so I'm also glad to see him benched.

Palace are only dangerous down the flanks so I like that Coleman and Digne are there. Coleman usually does well against Zaha and, with Davies or Holgate to cover, we should be okay.

Onus is on James, Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin to get us some goals.

Kevin (5): "No Allan, after a 3-week holiday. Christ."

I suspect he picked up a knock (let's hope that's all it is) in training between Carlo's presser and now.

Started and played 90 minutes in the next game – a 1-0 home win over Watford, then got the first of his career-threatening injuries.

Olsen
Holgate Keane Mina
Coleman Davies Gomes Digne
Rodriguez Calvert-Lewin Richarlison

If they don't get caught out by Zaha's breaks then it should be a good result.

Defensive set up produces defensive faffing about at the back shocker!

Second-best at home again... against a fairly average team.

Same formation created enough clear chances to be three-up.

Same formation created enough clear chances to be three up,,michael.kenrick@gmail.com,1,18:52:29,,213.205.242.125,ok,23848,04/05/2021 18:52:29,Tomrichards2@outlook.com,reader,,,no 1144420,40643,toffeeweb,05/04/2021,Tony Abrahams,,"Bits of fluency but not enough, although we should definitely still be in front, with Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin both guilty of missing gilt-edged chances.

Maybe uninspiring but definitely not second-best, although I can understand people wanting more.

And the forward pass from Gomes and the position of Richarlison! How much are they paid???

Dom allowed the keeper to close him down from Holgate's very good through ball. Richarlison should have headed down not up from Coleman's good cross. How much time did he need with the two opportunities from Gomes's pass? Why did he run ahead of Gomes into an offside position with the early chance?

Decent header from the free-kick. I imagine Carlo will have words about the Brazilian ignoring three teamates and dead-ball specialists on the free-kick he insisted on taking.

Good on one hand he wants to take responsibility. Bad on the other that Everton would definitely have worked on free-kicks on the training ground from that position which went out of the window with Richarlison's stubborness.

Find your shooting boots, boys, and we win this.

Gomes is through in what looked a three against one, Richarlison runs offside, Gomes should see that and should have gone forward to draw the defender to him but no, he passes to a man offside. The only surprise is why it took the Ref and Linesman so long to see the bleedin' obvious.

Then Calvert-Lewin shows why there is some doubt about him, 1-on-1 with the keeper who's on the edge of his box and he harmlessly chips it to him and the keeper is so surprised he almost gives him a 2nd chance.

Then Richarlison fails to put 2 easy headers on target and shows a complete lack of discipline over a free-kick.

And Mr Ancelotti won't say much about it until tomorrow!
Bloody Everton!

If, by some miracle, a ball is played forward, the first instinct is to play it back to the same player.

Has Calvert-Lewin never watched Kane and the way he gets in front of a defender for a cross rather than waiting in hope for the ball to come to him? Thank God I'm not paying to watch this rubbish.

Cannot score one-on-one and pass when should shoot and shoot when should pass. Grab the ball to take free-kicks when there are better-equiped players to take them.

Not good enough so far!

In Ancellotti we trust. I think not.

I hope he has the courage and honesty to admit he got it horribly wrong. You can not blame him for all the missed chances but his decisions when we were comfortable and winning are totally inexplicable and unacceptable.

No way Coleman should have gone off.

Having said that, the game would have been over but for the dreadful finishing of Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison.

We simply didn't take our chances, and when we did take the lead, we didn't have the confidence to continue playing on the front foot.

Not good enough.

A better performance for 65 minutes, but the mentality lost us 2 points and with it probably our top-6 chances. A real top 6 team would have seized on the momentum after taking the lead and gone on to win 2/3-nil. But we bottled it and let Zaha run the game from there on in.

Congrats to Ancelotti, it was very difficult to lose these points! Proud to follow the most cowardly team in the whole world.

I'm a little torn though. If Everton were not involved and I'd watched this game I'd genuinely just put it down to "football" - a result almost predestined. Evidenced by the almost comic difference in the number of high quality chances.

But for Everton, I felt today was important. Today was a test of belief and mental resilience. Not for the first time, this group was once again found lacking.
When you create as many chances as we did today, you will win a lot more than you draw or lose. But that lack of willpower, of grit today sticks in my mind. In my view, more surgery on this squad is required if we're to realistically get much further.

I think we've seen this playing group's ceiling. The investment necessary to get us to the next level looks truly daunting but, with a new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock on the way, what choice does the owner realistically have?

Very frustrating. Again.

You could see the lack of pace in midfield due to injuries and spot the blue shirt in that area when we broke forward.

After 70 minutes, you could see only Palace were the team that were likely to score.

Calvert-Lewin only scores sitters. Can't score from outside the box. Shearer he isn't.

Richarlison is too temperamental and should be sold in the summer.

Buy a proper right back and put Coleman out to grass.

A dominating keeper... and get rid of Davies, for fuck's sake.

2 strikers that put chances away are needed in the summer, we can't carry on with Calvert-Lewin missing so many easy chances, it costs us way too many points and goals. Goal difference +3, it's the Moyes Goodison years all over again.

The appointment of Koeman & Walsh has set us back years.

Worst Liverpool season since Dalglish and we will still finish many points below them. More fun at work to look foward to...

Europe? Maybe, if there's a war.

One positive is that Gbamin got some minutes, but you see that he was very tentative.

We missed Allan and Doucouré big time in the middle.

On the basis of that performance, I would say we are at the level of Crystal Palace, mid table. Europe! That is laughable.

I have to blame Carlo for the change with Coleman. I could see why he did it but to go like for like with Godfrey taking the Coleman role was a bloomer.

Took control with James' sublime goal - how did he squeeze it in through that solid block of defenders in front of him? - but continued to squander chances.

With one sub already used up in the first half, I fancied James would be one of those withdrawn and giving Gbamin game time, and you can understand bringing on Godfrey for Coleman who played 3 times in the international break.

But it further blunted our already limited attacking threat. Neither Gbamin nor Godfrey played well. Everything good about Everton going forward today came from the boot of James. We didn't manage the game well after his withdrawal and, at this level, a Premier League team only needs one chance to take something from the game.

That said, Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison were both very poor with their finishing today. On the balance of play, the draw a fair result.

We are determined not to land a European place, aren't we?

What on earth is it about us? Richarlison and Premier League were utterly appalling.

I give up.

More fuming than the fumiest fumer in Fumerland. About to ignite.

Fair play to Palace who played with pace and intensity all night, but the left hand side was open the whole game, so Everton, invited trouble.

The agony, and it's agony, but there's x9 cup finals to play, but tonight Everton, have made their chances very tough now to qualify for Europe.

Now to beat Arsenal away and to beat Spurs.

Sick to the back teeth again and hopefully our away form can pick up at the Emirates.

Palace actually played the better looking, joined up, fluent football until they got near our box. We bottled it yet again. Those who blame the substitutions are looking at an easy blame IMO.

Godfrey, who's been one of our best players, and lauded on here, to replace a tiring Coleman? Nowt wrong with that. Replacing a tiring James with Gbamin? Nowt too wrong with that either.

But we basically handed the momentum to Palace, became passive, and paid the price. Same ole same ole.

At the end of the day, we have to be very happy to stay in the top league. No team in the whole world would be able to stay with that mindset.

That become Everton in the best team worldwide. Just imagine any other team including the big six with our players and manager along the last two decades, for sure all of them would be playing in League Two at most.

We need a better class of player.

No point agonising over our sitting back, or blaming Davies or this or that player. We missed enough chances to have put this comfortably to bed inside an hour. Neither Calvert-Lewin nor Richarlison performed anywhere near their potential tonight. Both will play better.

It's Crystal Palace not Bayern Munich !, why not use the subs to kill them off and let them worry about us?

Never been an odd-shaped ball follower until recent years with the Chiefs on my doorstep. They kick off just after the National finishes on Saturday. Even if they don't win, it will only be because Leinster play out of their skins and are better on the night (and they are the Shittee of the oval ball game) and it will never be for the want of trying or poor tactical decision making.

Mr Ancelotti, I suggest you watch and learn and in the meantime hang your head in shame.

We are terrified of success and dare not take our chances. Like so much else nowadays, we are dominated by the risk of failure.

One of the few players always available to take a pass and on the same wavelength with James. I really do give up on some who seem to have some sort of agenda but little power of observation.

Score one and scuttle into their shell. Hang on for the rest of the game. I am fed up of suffering every match.

I just cannot enjoy this football. No flow, no domination, poor finishing, hanging on every time we take the lead whoever we play. And carelessly blowing the best chance of Champions league we have had for years.

The mediocre teams that have beaten us at home. We should be flying into Europe. This is just not good enough. I expect big changes in the Summer or there is no point building a great stadium to field a mid-table line-up.

Frustrating and pathetic. I don't want to point players out as they have all had ups and downs this season but selection and tactics have left a lot to be desired. Don't get me wrong: I do like Carlo, but a lot of the negative play has been down to him.

Not sure that's why we lost the lead mate. You agonise over it if you must, but we should have been comfortably ahead well before the end.

As for 'terrified of success', well no comment on that frankly.

I thought Coleman was having a great game and didn't deserve to go off, same for Rodriguez.

Godfrey and Gbamin were far too negative subs. A half decent team wins this game by 2 or 3. Shite.

Coleman was doing well; I thought it was a bad move replacing him, especially because Michael Keane was beginning to get exposed, so maybe that would have been the better sub?

Calvert-Lewin had to score at one-nil, during our best spell of the second half, why didn't he just toe-poke it? But we are a team that needs more craft, and a team that needs more running from deep, just like Lingard has just produced for West Ham there.

Darren H, I just hope you done Rodriguez to score first mate, I hope someone gets something out of tonight's game!

I can't really recall any game which we've dominated and maintained sustained pressure. Usually it's constantly giving up possession with misplaced pass after misplaced pass.

Only Everton.

As far as substitutions, it was a no-brainer that Rodriquez would have been knackered for the rest of the season if he'd stayed on for the 95 minutes. He was always only going to last 70 minutes.

Likewise Coleman played 3 bloody times in last 2 weeks for Ireland and again a fair substitution. Problem was Godfrey is no right-back and Gbamin has only played 120 minutes in the last 20 months.

Richarlison and to lesser extent Calvert-Lewin should have put us 3- or 4-nil up in the first half. and even had reasonable chances in the 2nd half.

Two points, we seem incapable of playing football, it's just defend and counter, why oh why can't we play 1 touch, quick, mobile football like virtually every team has done against us Goodison for last 6 months?

And second: How the hell do we keep getting players injured in training, Allan and Iwobi tonight.

We'll do well to finish 7th, we need at least 3-4 players, midfielders, wide man, all technically good and all with pace.

Calvert-Lewin has looked half-arsed for a few months now, trying silly little flicks and kicks... dreadful woeful pathetic finishing in the last few months.

I like Ancellotti but it is now time to show that nice Uncle Carlo can get pissed off as well and be tough. Some dreadful passes this evening when not even under pressure... but, even allowing for that, and for terribly biased refereeing - - time and time again, 1-on-1 misses by Calvert-Lewin – unforgivable.

We should have won... but didn't. It cannot carry on – strong action must be taken. Remeber Catterick dropping Alex Young and a few others for a young Joe Royle because they were not showing enough? Brought them back for the next Cup game... and we won and went on to glory – called Good Management.

I don't agree at all. Seamus is well up to 90+ minutes. His reaction at being substituted said it all. He wasn't showing any signs of running out of steam.

Very negative move by the manager which backfired!!

Dogs loved their walk though.

Seamus had Zaha nailed so I was very surprised when he came off. Keane made a complete hash of their goal.

I also thought that Gbamin would only come on if we were 2 or 3 up – not at 1-0. I aappreciate the bench was light but it was a risk that didn't work. good night fellow blues!

The net result is a tired-looking squad that can't score even when presented with the easiest of chances. Who to blame is anybody's guess but the responsibility will always fall on the manager. He must rectify the situation in the summer or the pressure will intensify hugely next season.

I used to dream of a Moyes / Martinez hybrid that would seal the deal and get us to at least 4th... One thing is for certain though, no amount of excuses for missed early chances justify those substitutions today.

Plain and simply "this is rock bottom, so pay me for more, and I'll deliver" springs to mind.

What we have with Everton is a very low-scoring mid-table team with zero pace, but with one of the highest paid managers in Europe, which is strange as Europe is one place we never leave a mark.

It was good to give Gbamin a run out; he looked okay. James, just recovering from an injury, needed to be subbed. If only other players could finish as he does.

Coleman's days of 90 minutes are gone, and never was on after travel to International games. Qatar, a 9-hour flight both ways. . . Holgate played well. Keane was at fault for the goal, ball watching, mis-read the play.

Ancelotti's tactics got Everton at least one point at home, having lost the past two games. King was to be competition for Calvert-Lewin, but recently was relegated to the wing, not being good enough. Richarlison is too predictable, defenders and goalkeepers can predict what he is going to do. There are no other threats on goal other than Sigurdsson. Any set-piece advantage has dried up. Everton are too deep on corners.

I'm still hopeful of a Top-Six finish but the game in hand needs to be converted to 3 points.

Also the manager with his defensive substitutes – surely he knows by now our defenders aren't good enough to protect a one-goal lead.

Yes mate I did get on James to get the first, I owe you a pint for the little nudge. Unfortunately it rings a little hollow right now.

How many times are we Evertonians going to have to get ourselves back up again?

I guess we'll all be back up again for the next one... Tha'ts just what we do, isn't it?

James was outstanding for short periods in the game but a liability for most of the time.

The mentality of this squad has to be questioned. They go to pieces every time we have a chance of achieving something.

Carlo must be as fed up as us. He didn't miss chances or sit back when we took the lead. It is lack of bravery and ambition on the part of the players.

I have been an Ancelotti supporter but my patience with the dull football we are playing is wearing thin. Did we need three at the back? At home to an average Premier League side.

Problem is, when you look at our bench, no-one is setting your pulse racing, thinking get him or them on for 20/30 mins. We need a young fit player in the mould of Grealish, Maddison or Smith Rowe to give us more in the final third.

One win in the last seven home league games tells you that we are simply not good enough and that goes for the manager, especially with his substitutions making us retreat into defensive mode with 10 players back in our own half inviting the opposition to attack. They can't do anything else but attack; all that does, Carlo, is invite heartburn, constipation and ultimately fuckin' ulcers on us supporters.

Why was King brought to the club? I'm getting on a bit but I can definitely sit on the bench as good as him... ridiculous – like your substitutions tonight and in many games this season. Surely you can do better than this, Carlo, even with this poor squad?

We should have left Coleman on and swapped Godfrey for one of the centre-halves as a like-for-like sub.

We sat back on a lead, took our best two players off; then, when they scored, we quickened up and attacked again.

Have to say poor subs, tactics when leading 1-nil, and a woeful display from out attackers, cost us big time today, cruise control til we made the subs.

West Ham - Noble.
Spurs - Kane.
Liverpool - Henderson.
Chelsea - Azpillacueta.
Man City - Fernandinho.
Man Utd - Maguire.

All in the refs face, everyone's face. Every ref has an easy ride at Goodison Park.

Today we had a free-kick that was overturned because Cahill shouted loudest.

Best thing was probably seeing Gbamin making a comeback, not going to judge him in the 20-ish minutes but he didn't look out of place.

Well done to Palace. They went behind but then looked more of a threat making positive attack-minded subs. We need some of that. A game changing or match winning bench.

We couldn't control the game and, when trying to defend a 1-0 lead, all 3 centre-backs vacate their positions. Once again, a lack of quality and game management.

I don't wan't to waste money plugging a defence when we are crying out for better quality midfielders and forwards but both Mina and Keane are always a liability. I'm always waiting for the next mistake.

Ruined a good weekend.

Seeing how West Ham are going right now, Moyes has a team that are together, strong and confident and the right amount of cockiness.

Having said that, we really should've won comfortably tonight. Of course we are not out of it but how can we be considered Champions League challengers when we shoot ourselves in the foot? Richarlison deserves to be dropped for his petulance.

The only hope is that Usmanov gets the club by the throat in the summer.

I am starting to worry, very much, about the manager. There are times when he looks as though he's setting us up properly for an assault but, for the most part, I think he has been negative and dodgy in his tactics.

At the start of the second half, Everton went to a five-man defence. I thought this created the space for the Everton counter attack resulting in James's goal. Everton had a rake of chances to finish the game as a result.

They ended up getting done by one defensive error by Keane. He got drawn centrally predicting the ball going across the defence. It was played inside to the space Keane should have been marking instead. He was out of position.

Everton always get out done where the right-back is committed and the ball is played inside, where the space is not marked. 3 times from memory, starting with West Ham. I think it happened with Newcastle and Burnley, all carbon copies. Godfrey committed as Coleman would have done. Keane inexplicably actually turned inside creating more space. I saw it a mile off, Keane's brain was somewhere else.

However our finishing was awful – I have constantly defended Calvert-Lewin but he has been poor for a while. I have consistently questioned Richarlison's footballing intelligence, and he raised more queries against it tonight.

The most disturbing issue is around our attitude. Where was the determination to win? Why didn't the other players tell Richarlison to do one at the free-kick? Why did Gomes pass to a player who was clearly offside? Why so many sloping shoulders at 70 minutes? Why bring on a substitute who hadn't played for 20 months at a crucial stage of the game?

It wasn't just about Kean's error, it was about our surrendering space and initiative - yet again.

If you put Mick McCarthy in charge at Man City, they'd probably still win trophies because the players simply self-manage.

Moyes is obviously nowhere near as decorated as Ancelotti but sometimes it's horses for courses and understanding what's required.

In Ancelotti's 18 months in charge, it's clear they haven't worked on physical fitness as we look just as bladdered as we did under Allardyce.

It doesn't take years like some people believe, to get a bunch of professional footballers running and working to a cohesive plan, has it taken Leicester that long? Moyes at West Ham?

I'm underwhelmed that over a year in now under Carlo we don't look any more cohesive than we did two years ago.

Is Sigurdsson finished? He hasn't started yet. Another lack-lustre performance.

Godfrey is as much to blame for their goal as anyone else. He was sent on to defend a lead – not play "After you, Claude" with Zaha.

Character, character, now is the time for this Everton team, to show some, with steel, guts and belief.

I sense that Gomes will now be out for a few games, does any one know the availability of Allan, for Brighton?

Maybe start with Josh King at Brighton, but if he can do a Wayne Clarke-type cameo (Clarke was a wise buy, by Howard Kendall), in the last 9 games via starting or as sub, then, it's got to be worth a shout.

Energy and efficiency, intelligent use of the ball, but Everton are taking too many passes in most of their offensive play, and in transitional play.

For a team that has aims of the Europa League, they had better start stepping up in the last 9 games or they will spew it in arguably their best chance in years, to qualify for Europe.

Everton, please prove me wrong, and put together an unbeaten winning run, and set a standard to improve for next season.

The beer is kicking in but this is the spectre of Everton tonight; the season is still alive... but only just.

Look at the bench and tell me who else you'd have brought on to replace the two that left the field of play instead of the two that came on?

99% wanted to see Gbamin get some game time and now it's being criticised? To be honest, I'd have pulled Davies off and let James carry on.

Apart from the obvious that we should just put our many chances away, I think we are poor defending with the ball.

Against a team like Crystal palace we should be able to defend a lead by keeping possession. But we kept just giving the ball away in the last 20 minutes. Again I think we have two many defensive players who are not comfortable on the ball. Holgate, Keane, Mina and Davies are just not cool enough under pressure and ends up giving the ball away. That way we ended up defending all the time against a team like Palace.

A special mention for Richarlison. A real pity that he did not score a few goals. Because I thought his performance was excellent. He works so hard both ways. He makes really good runs and he finds the chances. I know he is having this attitude that annoys a few people. But his work rate and effort you can't question.

Also a special mention for James. I am sure his agent will be on the phone with Carlo tommorow. There is a clause in James contract that he is not supposed to use his right food and then the Captain forces him to use the right foot with a poor pass.

On the subs point, we all know James is 60 minutes twice a month max and he will just sit down and sub himself off if the manager won't. So him going off was inevitable.

King has been utterly useless for the last couple of years at every club and every level so I wouldn't have brought him on either.

As for Coleman, I don't know. I don't think that switch helped us any to say the least but their are differing opinions over his fitness and I am not privy to the truth on that.

That said, I think the standard of football over the last few seasons (even before Carlo Ancelotti) has been terrible given the money invested. Why are we unable as a club to move forward?

I am a big fan of Carlo but I am really beginning to wonder if he is losing his way. This evening wasn't his first set of strange substitutions and I am in despair at watching us give teams so much of the ball, it does nothing for the nerves watching us play.

Crystal Palace looked far more energetic than we did this evening. Yes, we created chances but that doesn't excuse the negative substitutions for the final 15 minutes. Disappointed, even my Easter Eggs taste sour!

That's because he inherited world class players all at their peak at Chelsea between 2009-11, the likes of Terry, Lampard, Cole, Drogba ect ect, the same era that Moyes was forced to scrape around signing the like of Straqualursi and Vellios.

Comparison's aren't always black and white when you study the bigger picture.

With 15 mins to go, we sat back and seemed content to hoof it clear and give them the ball straight back. They had pace to run at us and we allowed it to happen. They exposed Godfrey at right back (his worst position across the back) and Keane's oil tanker-like ability to turn.

We badly missed Allan and Doucouré tonight but the tactics for that last 15 mins were all wrong. Whether it's the manager or the players or indeed both, the attitude needs to change. The fear of winning at home is becoming habitual and has cost us a chance of European football which the club desperately needs to kick on.

Our game plan is very slow and relies on clinical finishing. The front players are nowhere near that standard.

I just watched a bit of Wolves vs West Ham and we are well away from West Ham and light years away from top 6 teams.

It would be easy to blame Carlo. However, this is the same shite that has been served up to us for years. There is something rotten in the club and who ever takes over is unable to make a difference.

I still struggle to see enough quality in midfield for the owner's ambitions and we need other quality options up front.

If we can finish the season strongly and be top six, that's progress, but to take it to the next level, we need a summer transfer review.

We have 2 major problems. We have a manager that gets more joy out of a 1-0 win than pressing for a 2nd and winning in style; and we've a midfield that's short on both guile and energy. Continually we sit back and allow teams gain confidence and pass around us. This is repetitive week after week.

Whilst our players maybe don't have the legs, I believe it's coached into them not to make mistakes or take chances. There is little or no expression or free flowing football coming from us. Carlo must be given another 2 transfer windows. If we are still performing at this level, then it's bye-bye, Carlo.

He's either given the tools or we continue to search for a saviour who can turn shit into gold.

So at 1-0 with the game finely poised, you'd bring on a guy who hasn't played a minute all season and try to hold on? Rather than, say, bring on King and try to keep the ball at the other end?

King has a bit of pace and strength. And cannot possibly have scored fewer goals than Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin tonight. We spent most of the last 20 minutes in our own half. Even when we did have the ball, there was no urgency.

I am generally a Carlo fan and, on balance, am glad he's here. But that kind of game makes me really wonder. We really did just encourage Palace to equalise. I'm sure most of us could see what was coming.

Godfrey is a defender, he isn't a wingback. Both of our subs impacted the game negatively.

We wouldn't be moaning about subs if either of the strikers could finish chances. Oh and why did Gomes pass to Richarlison in an offside position in a 3 vs 2! Frustrating night.

Because you know if we'd gone ahead after 20 minutes then we'd have stopped functioning as an attacking force from that point.

I can't understand it. There was bad finishing, good goalkeeping and some bad luck. But this is a team that is good enough to attack the lesser lights. And it's not a team that can afford to sit back against them. Yet we keep on playing to the opposition's strengths when we go ahead.

It had draw written all over it.

Today's game was typical of our season at home. Carlo needs time and his players.

You forgot to the mention Everton trademark: Non-Scoring Strikers. What we would do to have Lukaku... but yes, that ship has sailed.

In the end, it was, for me, a good game against a fairly good Palace side who deserved their point. Our point was okay and on chances squandered it could have, unfairly, been 5-1. We are a totally unbalanced side with key players unavailable and completely missing a couple of full-backs.

The concept that we played in a cowardly way is so stupid it burns. Both sides went for the win and for us it was an improvement on recent home results.

Fair result and bring on the next game.

We've put this on ourselves. We genuinely rely on other teams around us to drop points but yet fail to capitalise on them dropped points. We have blown it massively in my opinion. We actually don't deserve Europe. We've massively over-achieved this season.

It's great looking good off the pitch. But on it, we are genuinely frightened to handle the opportunity to move forward. I don't expect anything more from this team from now to the end of the season. Slowest team in the league and most inconsistent team in the league by a country mile.

Same old, same old Everton.

I would give Carlo next season, but there needs to be some serious improvement in his mentality.

This is not his side yet, and Moshiri will back him in the transfer window, but results need to improve; otherwise, it will be back to drawing board for our owner once again.

We just haven't got the "game changers" in our squad to really make a difference when called upon from the bench.

Signing King has proved to be a major fuck-up and shows just how short we are. Calvert Lewin and Richarlison guilty of missing great chances tonight. Both need some decent competition, the same way Pickford did.

Anybody else think that it's like – since we won the derby – the team have just switched off?

You could say that the threat was always there down the left hand side and tactically, this was the fine line, but the chances, which Everton made were not put away by Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison, but the lack of goals from across the squad tells its own story.

Fine margins, the old cliche, but it's becoming lack-lustre and to win the Brighton game, Everton, need to believe, and play for 96 minutes. It will be interesting to see who starts that game.

Next season is a long way off, but there's gonna be an interesting window for Everton, Euros and all, and getting deals done in good time won't be easy for any club.

Go again stronger next season with more options to make a difference.

A fucking disgrace.

Any posts in defence of this performance will be binned.

Support the club in its efforts and don't whine about the position we are in now; it is very much temporary and just a step on our path back to greatness. The positive lights flash massively Red.

We brought in a bit of quality this season with no Europe on offer.

But Bob Hope, Blind Hope and No Hope this season will still pull off some more strange results, and not all in Everton's games. The resurrection of a winning mentality and form must start at Brighton, and then beat Arsenal and Spurs back to back to get back in contention.

Who knows...

Ancelotti is a really good manager – but he seems at his best with the real talent. He's not a 'get a tune out of a load of shite' type of guy. With our Poundland bench and threadbare first 11, it's not a great match. I think that's why he's giving off these Walter Smith vibes when we play an underdog at home.

I believe in Ancelotti but he obviously needs better players to work with.

I can't see us beating Brighton, Villa, Spurs or Arsenal.

Bewildering substitutions – all the Palace threat was coming down their left, so removing our only right-back, however tired, was asking for trouble.

Davies lost the ball almost catastrophically on a couple of occasions, but always showed for the ball and usually found forward space.

James showed what he is - class.

Heaven knows where we go from here – if strikers can't take chances, everything else is pretty pointless.

Do you mean like he didn't today?

What are Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin doing there when they should be in on goal, blocking the goalkeeper, poaching?

Digne and Colman were out that far as well, when they should have been at the near and far post. It was as if these four players where taking account of the offside rule, which does not exist at corners.

It made the runs of attackers easily defended. There is no way they were coached to take up those positions at Finch Farm. As a result, Everton were no threat whatsoever at set-pieces. . . and haven't been in recent games.

Ancelotti is reponsible for that bench. He selected it. He got rid of a number of our experienced squad players. He has had 3 transfer windows to put a bench together. Kean, Walcott, Tosun and Bolasie have all gone. None brilliant but all better than the subs we have and could change a game and run at tired defenders.

We have never had our strongest 11 available for any single match since the Goodison derby, so we have to go along with the players that were already here, and we all know some of those are just not good enough.

A couple of signings in the summer, and Lady Luck on our side for once, on the injury front and we have the makings.

The big problem is our backup outside the strongest 11 is just not good enough.

I'm with you, While pleased to see Gbamin back on the pitch, I thought bringing him on with 20 minutes to go was a generous gesture by Ancelotti but misguided if the plan was to defend a slender lead. I suppose it further highlights the lack of quality and squad depth, which has been there for all to see for much of the season.

Completely deflated by this result.

A few more of the quality of Allan, Doucouré, James and Godfrey and we may see a competitive team emerge.

Your question on it doesn't take years to get a bunch of players, as some people believe, to get a bunch of professional footballers running and working in a cohesive plan.
Using three clubs on time taken and you quote 2: First, Leicester won the Premier League in 2016 and have had ample time to improve the squad by buying and selling.

Next, West Ham; yes, they are doing well but haven't won anything yet, and they signed their manager in November 2017 who has had a number of windows to sort his squad out.

The major club that shows it is not easy to win the Premier League or try, is Man City. Bought in 2008 to become the richest club in the Premier League, they spent a couple of seasons buying top class players and managers but it took until 2012 before they won the Premier League.

So, to answer your question, it does take a number or seasons and transfer windows to get a squad of players running and working in a cohesive plan.

End of last season, there was not one person who didn't say our major recruitment had to be in the midfield. Two of the players we signed were missing today, and we all are aware that we don't have the players in the squad to replace them, and the negative comments today are overlooking the fact that the players we have been relying on never came good, and that was our strikers.

Ancelloti has the reputation of being a world class manager that he earned, and I am sure neither himself and the rest of the staff never expected their strikers to miss so many opportunities and not put at least 1 or 2 goals in the net.

Most people ore blaming the substitutions but, in James's case, I don't believe he has ever played the full 90 minutes in any game and he was hacked around the ankles a few times without help from the referee, plus has not played for a number of weeks with an injury. Coleman played in the Internationals last week and also had just started playing after injury.

The tactics were okay but, as a manager, you can't do a lot once the team step over the white line and players get injured early.

Doucouré and Godfrey had just been relegated, James is on record as saying he came for Ancelotti, and Allan probably wasn't going to get a game at Napoli. Not saying they are not quality but if we try to sign, say, Aarons – who will have just been promoted and the competition for him are all in Europe – we will be the bottom of the pile.

When I've seen it in other games, I did blame it on the runner into that space not being followed by an Everton player from outside the box. I now know in each occasion Keane did not defend that near post space, which is his role. That has cost Everton 4 points in the Premier League. The West Ham game was an FA Cup game. In other words, a Top Four place. Every one of those goals was the same. The Everton right-back committed; the loose ball is passed into the near-post space the runner had run into, making an unchallenged cross or shot.

Carlo will be glad of the point – what manager wouldn't be with defending and finishing like that? If Carlo can keep getting a point a home and maybe a lucky 3 points, the away form may carry Everton through, starting with Brighton.

I am not as optimistic as you regarding the Summer transfer Window. I think at best there will be two additions. King has been a big disappointment. How no-one at the medical did not pick up on how out of condition he was, I don't know. . .

I think Carlo filled Calvert-Lewin with the Inzagi touch to get him into position. But Calvert-Lewin is either getting into position or is this side of Mars close to Inzagi's touch.

Richarlison is predictable. He will push the ball right and shot across goal. . . In the Premier League, they will definitely have caught that on and it is obvious defenders and goalkeepers are comfortable with it.

I do think that Carlo will get a Top Six finish, but it will take next year to get any higher.

You're posting absolute tosh. It was clear to all and sundry and generally agreed on the Live Forum that we sat back.

Ancelotti took off James (an offensive player) and brought on Gbamin (a holding player that hasn't played for 2 years). The team then sat deep to try and hold on to the lead.

You must have fallen asleep after half-time.

Had January been a proper window, then we wouldn't have signed Josh King, who Ancelotti clearly thinks is garbage.

That is not Ancelotti's bench. That bench is the culmination of a seriously bad recruitment strategy over about 5 years.

Everton sat back so that they could counter-attack, which they did, creating chances and a goal. It was the finishing and a defensive error that undid Everton. The substitutions did not contribute to either of these failings.

By the looks of things, we need players for right now. I would change the focus and bring in proven talent such as your Koulibali, Rabiot, Isco, Bailey and that Real Madrid wing-back. All of them have 4 years miminum and we can find the younger players the following season.

I think we have enough young and improving players. We also need more goals. A lot more. Calvert-Lewin failed today... and it wasn't a high-pressure game. It was vs Palace and he bottled it.

Rubbish. He has been in charge for three windows; if he hasn't got the players he needs, then that is his fault.

He was also in charge when he got rid of Kean, Walcott, Tosun, Bolasie and Simms who could all have been on the bench tonight.

He was also in charge when we signed King. He's the manager and the buck stops with him.

One could understand if it were Man City, Man Utd or Liverpool... but Palace??? Come on, Carlo!

There is obviously something wrong with Everton's marking, tackling and overall closing down that has been a feature of so many disappointing results this season and it's hasn't shown any signs of improving as the season goes on.

I, for one, cannot wait for the season to end because, despite hovering outside the top four, we have generally been very unimpressive, especially on our own patch. I have never seen us have so many disappointing results at Goodison.

Maybe it's time to think that Carlo is no longer the man for the job unless he starts acknowledging he needs new blood to replace the underachievers getting overpaid in the squad?

The lack of viable options on the bench is evidence of how much work needs to be done in terms of squad strengthening. This will take time and money.

How are we going to attract better players when we are not in a European competition? Bare in mind that next season it won't be as easy to get into the top 4.

Also, what's with this '80s Italian football Ancelotti is trying to play!!?

You, Soren, Jonathan T et al need to start group therapy to work out your issues regarding Carlo.

"Kean, Walcott, Tosun, Bolasie and Simms who could all have been on the bench tonight."

What?! Kean who blew his chances at Goodison! Tosun and Bolasie who couldn't deliver!

Simms? Simms! Have you watched the lad?!

I cannot see how King or any striker who's ever scored a goal would miss as many opportunities as England's current striker.

Moshiri and the board and Ancelotti's management team will have a business plan, but it will take time and so let's see after a full season how Ancelotti, as any manager (Mike Walker aside), can be fairly judged.

That game should have been put to bed early on, but things like this happen in football. Ancelotti said we'd play more attacking beforehand, and so it proved. However, the strikers fluffed their lines tonight and to me it looked as simple as that.

I am disappointed as this Everton team, more often than not, seem to let chances to progress go begging, which brings me onto my next point: the make up of the team.

The squad is made up from the recruitment of 6 managers: Moyes, Martinez, Koeman, Allardyce, Silva and Ancelotti. The team tonight was recruited at various points by all of those mentioned, bar Allardyce.

Ancelotti has been in charge for 15 months, during what is probably the weirdest season and a half ever: it really is unprecedented. Only 2 of the starters tonight were brought in under his watch. The team had injuries to Allan, Doucouré, Iwobi, Bernard, Delph, Pickford and then Gomes. It looked like Davies was not fully fit, but had to be played due to the lack of alternatives.

The players out on loan may or may not have made a difference. However, Walcott has been injured and hardly set the world alight; Bolasie has hardly set the world a light in a lower division; Tosun is injured again; Gordon isn't getting much game time in a lower league; Banigime isn't even being considered at Derby; Kenny seems to be doing okay at Celtic; the only one doing well is Kean, and he seemed to want to move. Even the guy who bought him didn't play him often either.

Considering that, and Financial Fair Play rules, and the injures–- for which I feel we have been unlucky – we are pretty threadbare at the moment.

I am not an Ancelotti apologist, I have no idea if he is the right guy for the job, but, given that he has been in it less than a year and a half, during a pandemic, with no fans allowed in the stadium, hampered by spending restrictions because of the profligacy of the managers before, then I am still giving him a chance.

Simple as that. He really did inherit a real bunch of serial underachievers that have let the fans down continuously before; he is a manger, not a magician. This job will take time.

Also chaps, I know there is passion, but a little bit of the bile out there tonight is unsavoury. We are all a bit disappointed, we all have different takes on things, but some of the insults are unnecessary me thinks. Just my opinion.

Squander is the operative word. I watched and posted simultaneously on Live Forum: "missed chance", "missed chance", "missed chance" ad nauseum. We should have been light-years ahead even before half-time.

So now we need Tosun, Bolasie, Walcott, Kean and Simms!!!!!! Any of whom could have come on and turned the game for us!

Unbelievable — you couldn't make that up!!!

Yes, maybe Calvert-Lewin should have done better with his first one, but the keeper was right on the edge of the penalty area before the ball reached Calvert-Lewin and blocked it. His second one, the keeper was out quick to smother.

The only really bad one I'd say was Richarlison's when he nearly went round the keeper (did he get a hand to it?) before coming back inside again but his shot was smothered by the keeper. Frustrating for all of us, but give the palace keeper credit. Had that been the other end, we'd all be saying great goalkeeping by Olsen.

They'd say that West Ham attract world class players like James, who they'd pay to watch alone. They'd say West Ham had amazing young talents in Calvert-Lewin and Godfrey. They'd say Moyes was hitting his glass ceiling at Everton with his journeyman team, led by a full-back turned striker.

We draw and lose games, often because of a misplaced pass, or a bit of confusion in the back line. We fail to clear our lines in the 94th minute, or we give away a stupid foul in the 89th minute.

I can't help thinking that 100% concentration for 90+ minutes in every game this season might have yielded half-a-dozen more points. It's this, that has people tearing their hair out.

We lost our shape after Gomes went off hurt. Sigurrdson once again strolled around as if playing in a testimonial game. Gbamin should only have been introduced had we been 3 goals up. Coleman had arguably been our best player, why replace him?

The strikers were woeful. There was no clinical edge. We were sloppy in finishing apart from James's strike.

Jesse Lingard has been the catalyst to West Ham's success story this year. Our season could have been so different had we secured his services. That's exactly the type of player we need. Fellas laughed at me when I suggested going for him when he was out of favour with Man Utd at the beginning of the year.

“Gary Lineker dragged us down." "Graham Stuart is in our all time worst 11.” Those were among the comments on the forum tonight. Are you sure you want to highlight the forum as the fountain of knowledge?

You mean to say we had opponents tonight? Next you'll be telling me they had a £70 million forward most on here wanted us to sign. I thought we were just playing ourselves based on the hysteria.

Calvert-Lewin: He's done well this season, you cannot take that away from him. But I've never seen a striker panic as much as him when he is one v one with a goalkeeper. Still has a long long way to go before being a "top" striker.

Richarlison: Either hot or cold. When he is hot, he is scoring for fun, creating something out of nothing, and getting involved with chances. However, when he is cold, it's almost like a inexperienced 16-year-old kid. Throws his dummy out, doesn't want to know, and erratic. I mean the free-kick incident was embarrassing but, to be honest, where the fuck was the captain???

Gomes: There is only so much you can blame on an injury. Let's be honest – he is shite. Slow, at times lazy and terrible decision-making. £22 Million down the drain.

King: What was the actual point in signing him? Like seriously??? Clearly not gonna get enough minutes, clearly not gonna start, and clearly not good enough if Bournemouth wanted to get rid.

Holgate: Average player with a huge ego. Never a good sign.

Davies: He's not done too bad this season. But, if we are to move forward, I am sorry but he cannot be a part of this team.

Sigurdsson: Only when he is arsed. Very consistent at pointing around the pitch. Very inconsistent in everything else.

I'll go on to the rest later. But, my god, we are literally our own worst enemy. I like Carlo but his substitutions this season have been atrocious at times. As great as it was to see Gbamin back, he should never have came on with us 1-0 up. If we were cruising by 3 or 4, then yes. Michael Keane was to blame for the goal. Pathetic defending.

I genuinely have no confidence in this team anymore, no desire to look forward to the game, especially during a tough period. I should be excited that we're playing knowing that a win would take us 2 points behind 4th with a game in hand. But I can't because I support a team whose players mentally tap-out before a ball has even been fucking kicked. West Ham want Europe, Liverpool want Europe, Chelsea want Europe... and, simple as, we don't.

Fear of taking control again. Lessons not learned and, worst of all, no leaders at all. Same old same old.

I'm not arsed about the stadium, not arsed about sponsorships deals. I am arsed about what happens on the pitch and how we can compete rather than shit our shorts.

What is the point of Nil Satis Nisi Optimum when the club don't take it seriously themselves???

Not disagreeing with what you say about Lingard, but had we signed, or attempted to sign him, plenty on here would have been in uproar. "Not another Man Utd has-been, reject" etc.

Now that he's doing well for West Ham, plenty are now criticising the club for not signing, or attempting to sign him.

Only thing is, he's only on loan at West Ham, and it's very likely Man Utd will want him back, seeing as Cavani is off in the summer. Either that or they will slap a hefty £50M transfer fee on his head!

I didn't want Lingard based on recent form and he admitted himself he'd lost focus due to family problems. In fairness, he's got himself together and proved myself and others who'd written him off as being mistaken. Good luck to him. I hate to see talent wasted.

Calvert-Lewin missed 3 clear chances, Richarlison missed a similar amount. They don't score enough for us to compete with other teams, it's just not good enough. :/

Palace didn't have to up it much to score – but they did. Everton wouldn't've had to up it much either, but they couldn't.

Is some of it Ancelottis fault? You could make a case either way...toss of a coin.

Ultimately – especially with no fans booing in the stadium to put pressure on both manager and Chairman – it comes down to Moshiri's patience... I don't see it running out any time soon though.

How long that will last is the key question.

Is it right or wrong to mention Allardyce got us to 8th? – asking for a friend, as they say.

I think those in charge should contemplate what the root cause is of our "proud" win, again, of the worst goal difference in the top half of the division, by miles. It's been going on for years. How many times do we win by three clear goals? Hardly ever, never last season and only once this season, against the might of WBA.

I suggest this attitude has become in-bred in the mind-set of the Kenwright coaching staff (and maybe others more recently arrived) at USMFF for years. We are timid, nervous of achievement, comfortable with our fabulous cars and life-styles, paranoid about better players coming in upsetting the mediocrity, and incapable of turning endless verbal pronouncements that "we have to do better/we let us and the supporters down today" into anything better by way of performance.

The deadwood is being slowly dealt with at joist level but unfortunately, like woodworm, it's well into the whole structure of the planks too, courtesy of our host plank.

It's hard to fathom why Everton's defence cannot hold out against a team like Palace.
One could understand if it were City, United or RS but Palace ??? Come on Carlo !

You seem to be suggesting that the minimum standard is about 30 clean sheets a season. It's not - we should always expect that Palace can score against us.

To my mind it's simple. If you play for one goal wins, then you're giving yourself very fine margins. And we've been playing that game since October.

I was cautioning this when we were eeking out wins and was told on here that I was just miserable.

Something about playing with fire.

We were not brilliant last night, but we were comfortable. Palace had been very accommodating. They were poor in possession, offered nothing up front and they were defending like beginners. This looked and should ave been a formality. So why, oh why, oh fucking why did Carlo want to twist when he was holding all the aces ?.

He didnt just order his men to sit back. His cowardly substitutions were an order to them to get back behind the couch again... In a game that screamed "come and get me" he couldnt escape his built in "what we have we hold" mentality...its the way he is wired up.

All those blaming the strikers (who were embarrassing by the way) should remember one thing. Despite our profligacy we were still winning when Carlo decided to retreat. We were still comfortable. Palace were going out like a whimpering puppy until carlo threw them a big fuck off bone...They were going quietly until he offered them encouragement.

I don't know what makes me more angry. The way Carlo surrendered the points, or the fact that we still have so many making excuses for it... or maybe its the fact that those making these endless excuses think they are doing so in the name of positivity.

Once again another hired hand strolls in, Takes the absolute piss by serving up primitive bone idol anti-football and once again, we have thousands and thousands...And thousands of fans expressing their gratitude for it

Its a reoccurring nightmare

On last night's showing not many deserve to be selected for the bench, next game, never mind the first team. There is something radically wrong there and I just hope it gets identified, sorted, and never returns

Nicholas Ryan, bang on. Agree 100%.

Rob Halligan, you make a good point about their keeper doing his job well denying Calvert-Lewin. The thing is though, at any point from when the striker got the opportunity to ahen Guaita smothered it was there an Everton fan in the world who though he would score? In the very short time it took, my thought was "he's not gonna push it far enough away from the keeper", and that is a sad commentary.

- we don’t have any depth in attack.
- we’ve got to trust Carlo on what he sees with King in training he is clearly not good enough, but we were sensible enough not to make it long term (we ARE learning)
- lose Allan and Doucoure and we are last seasons team.

It’s a huge missed opportunity this year, but we’ve all got to pray Moshiri can dig deep again in the summer.

Outs: Holgate, Siggy, King, Gomes, Bernard.

Ins: TOP right back, proper RW/RM, proper LW/LM, a proper number 6, and another striker.

Got your work cut out Marcel.

Two reasons, out-wide you get two banks of four, and centrally you get three midfielders, which means one can sit in front of the back four.

Watching the game you could see Michael Keane, was getting exposed every time Coleman went forward, and that little pocket of space where Michael just doesn’t feel/look comfortable, was going to be our undoing in the end?

I thought Mina, had a very good game, but he’s never going to step out either, and this was the other problem that would have been negated by having a sitting midfielder?

But we are where we are for a reason, and I’d like to hear what Carlo Ancellotti says about some of the players he’s inherited in private, because it looks like he doesn’t really trust a few of them, and neither would I, watching the way they sometimes pass the ball whilst not even remotely under pressure.

I’m usually nervous, I hate watching it on the Telly mate, but last night when my partner said there is something up with me, it wasn’t nerves, it was because they were getting on my nerves, especially DCL, when he had to score and Michael Keane, creating panic, where there was none, and just not having a basic leader, on or off the pitch?

I will pick myself up though Darren H, I always do, especially because through my anger, it’s just patently obvious that we have got to many players in our squad, who are just not good enough for where I want to see Everton go.

Who was Ancelotti supposed to buy in January and with what money?

Is Steve Bruce solely responsible for Newcastle's plight or does Mike Ashley have something to do with it?

After all, Newcastle nearly won a title 20-odd years ago so they've every right to expect a top 4 finish.

It's going to be extremely difficult to get rid of Siggy, Bernard and Gomes as Siggy and Bernard still have a year left on their contracts and Gomes has THREE years left on his. considering the wages they are on unless they are willing to take a considerable pay cut shifting them, especially Gomes will be next to impossible.
Personally I don't see this as a midfield problem. We made more than enough chances to have won easily yet our strikers were missing sitters. DLC doesn't score at all unless it's put on a plate for him. A one trick pony. We need a striker like Jota or Ings. Someone who makes space, tries angled shots, knows how to go around a keeper and isn't reliant on crosses to score goals. We need a proper right back and a dominating keeper.
When we have our best side on the park we are good. But we haven't had our best side fit for months. It's just one injury after another. I still think we have a reasonable chance of a top six finish and Europa Cup. The Champions league would have been too much for us anyway.
One more thing. I would be tempted to cash in on Richarlison. He's just too temperamental and it effects his game.

A midfield player with a football brain like James Rodriguez has got. A quick thinker and accurate passer, mobile, able to bring intensity and able to drive with the ball. A midfielder who can put defences on the back foot. Aged 24 ish.

This player would form an effective midfield unit with Allan, Doucoure, Davies and James. Nobody knows for sure what Gbamin will bring, but no eggs should be in that basket.

Delph, Sigurdsson, Iwobi, Bernard, Kenny, Gomes and Tosun Mr Brands needs to try and encourage them to permanently move on. Kean will likely be sold.
Walcott, Besic and King will definitely be out. (King cannot be viewed as good enough, and Ancelotti will be looking for better)

There’s eleven players who in my view do not strengthen Everton. Mr Brands with Mr Ancelotti again have to do their best at realignment.

If we moved on those eleven and just got that special midfielder we’d be a better team. Don’t spare the budget!

We know we need more than that though , much more potency and threat up front (Don’t spare the budget here either!) and quality right back are essential summer signings.

The responsibility always rests with the manager, of course Carlo will be given more funds in the summer to hopefully mould us into a more cohesive unit. Will it work ? I doubt it personally, we just don't have the resources to buy the players he would really need and the ones we do buy will be European mercenaries, players none of the top clubs want.

In the end we will need a younger manager with a new and fresher approach, I like the way the Brighton manager Potter has his team well organised right through his team of young players. I've no idea if he's good enough to bring success to the blues though, but I think that's what we need, a good organiser of mostly younger, strong athletic players with real pace.

2) Michael Keane is painfully slow and cannot play in a back 3.

3) without Allen and Doucoure we don’t have a MF hence, we don’t have a chance. Gomes, Bernard, Sigurdsson, Iwobi (especially Iwobi) Delph, Davies are either crap or, in Iwobi’s case, shite!!

4) we have 3 good forwards in DCL, Richarlison and James but the former two don’t appear to be on the same wavelength. There’s no apparent understanding between them eg DCL heads the ball anywhere except to Richarlison and Richarlison never looks to play DCL in. We need another forward to put pressure on our front two.

5) the team lacks pace, leadership, creativity and stamina to compete with the big boys

So what’s the solution? Right back, right wing, a leader in MF and a new striker. Apart from that maybe we can appoint Darren and his band of brothers as caretaker managers until they find their perfect man.

Yeah, appreciate it’s never easy to shift on players, but Bernard almost went in last window and perhaps Middle East or USA will offer one big pay day for Siggy too.

Gomes will be harder to shift, particularly in the covid climate with la liga skint, and if we can’t find a taker then Davies out on Loan for a year may be a worthwhile alternative. These two together just DONT work.

I agree last nights problem was 100% the strikers, but not sure I see the sense in replacing the leagues 4th highest scorer (DCL) with the leagues 14th (Ings). Bringing Ings in to create competition and compliment him is another kettle of fish entirely. Richies certainly an enigma, but only a very high bid would make sense. We need to ADD upfront, not subtract.

Our problem is scoring goals! Particularly in matches like last night. We are roughly 12th in the league in this area. and for me that’s not because of Richie or DCL, but because the midfielders don’t contribute enough here. Take away pens and Siggy offers very little, Bernard and Gomes basically none.

Address that, and the strikers can have their off days and either be replaced by others, or a midfielder will step up and rescue us like James nearly did.

We’re not far away, but not close enough. Spin the wheel.

This team needs more pace and more players totally comfortable in possession.

We should have won comfortably but the equaliser was just so predictable!

2 things stood out for me last night:
1) he seems unable to leather the football like a top class striker can. He missed about 3 or 4 chances last night trying to side foot the ball into the goal which he tends to do a lot making the keepers chances greater. Their keeper last night did not have a great game nor make any truly great saves, it was purely poor finishing.
2) the petulance over taking that free kick when we had better options than him was pure selfishness. When you are trying to build a team you don’t need selfish people like that. It’s all about him and not the team. Ruthless managers would get rid, can you imagine Fergie standing for that?!?

Get rid in the summer and use the funds to get some recruits in.

Once our top player Richie I think will be off in the summer. He form has badly dropped all season, as I feel he's seem Moise Kean gallop off to pla CL football with Mbappe and Neymar (who he knows well).

If we didn't already know DCL is very good in the air and close range one touch shots. But anything else we want from him (and we do) we ain't gonna get. No taking on the keeper with one on ones and no shooting with venom or precision.

2 goalscorering strikers/midfielders required in the summer.

Like others have said I don't know what they practice at Finch farm, the ball is treated like a bomb about to explode. There is no drive about Evertons play, no matter who is manager. It just seems to be a cozy avin a laugh part time job. But I agree with many others the amount of ex Everton players on the coaching staff seems to add to Bill's misty eyed view of what football is. The chances missed by both the forwards last night was unacceptable for any professional football club.

Richarlison needs to be on the wing as id argue with him up top we havent got a quality winger in the club. James floats, iwobi inconsistent, gordon not ready, bernard not good enough and Coleman and digne make decent wing backs but with nobody in front of them struggle.

Christ last night I saw Jesse lingard and Antonio running with the ball time and time again and nobody in our squad can do that. Another poster pointed out eze and zaha and hes spot on. Running at the defence with pace causes problems. City do it, utd, chelsea, liverpool all do it too.

This summer we MUST address our actual weaknesses. Another Doucoure type is a must as its no surprise we’ve been awful without him. Two fast wingers and a right back to compete with seamus is a must also.

The real sickener is that with all the teams around us dropping points the second we scored and sat back I saw the palace goal coming.

As for Sigurdsson, if he goes then so do a good chunk of our goals and assists. Again, I'll be surprised if he goes and he may even be given a contract extension.

If we get in, say, Sarr and Bailey then you can see what a difference that would make in a game like last night.

But we'll still be light on quality and numbers in reserve next season.

Weren't Martinez, Koeman and Silva younger managers with a fresher approach?
We cannot keep trying to sign up the latest flavour of the month manager just because he's having a decent time with a small club. I don't care what Potter is doing at Brighton. Carlo has a proven record of success second to none. He is Everton's manager and will remain so for the foreseeable future.

Dominic reacted poorly for the first, took to much time concentrating on the ball, and not once looking to see where the keeper was, and i’d bet that if that was in training, he’d have dinked it early or feinted and went round the keeper, when he realised much too late, how fast the keeper had come out?

For the second one, I didn’t understand why he hit what I’d describe as an ice-hockey shot. Why try and lift it whilst the keeper was coming forward “getting set” why did’nt he just toe-poke it quickly which would have given the keeper no time to react?

Just my opinions Rob, I know you’re in the goalkeepers union mate, I like DCL, I’ve been patient for a reason, but there comes a time when a player has to grab the bull by the horns and go and win the game for his team, and surely this is what Lewin needs to start doing now, if he his to reach the next stage?

Our substitutions did not work out. Coleman and James were our best players on the night, however, when Coleman was replaced by Godfrey I could understand the logic of the switch but was more than surprised when Holgate was not moved to right back and Godfrey to the left of the middle three.

Holgate does not offer much going forward but he is a better right back then Godfrey. Godfrey has been exceptional this season and I hope the last 15 minutes of last night's game did not damage his confidence.

Charlie like DCL was wasteful but what really disturbed me about the guy was the incident just before half time when he won a free just outside the box on the left side. He grabbed the ball just like a 5 year old kid would in the school playground and did not let go of if until he took the resultant free.

From three downwards the standard in the division is pretty moderate and that is the only reason we are sill in the mix with 9 games to go. We are averaging just over 61 points for a 38 game season at present but I reckon we will be luck to break the 60 point barrier.

When it comes to signings this summer can we please purchase players who have rock solid fitness records.

Hopefully the club is getting tough, and also getting ready to take some big hits, otherwise as you say it’s rinse and repeat, because as some people on this thread have already alluded, football is very competitive, and nobody is just going to let you go and win.

You need real dynamism and quality to move forward in this game!

It seems like there is a mental barrier affecting a lot of our players. It boils down to the lack of leadership on the pitch. Please get us a “captain of the ship” on the field who is inspiring and can lift the team.

He inherited a very weak squad when he came here, nobody is arguing about that, but no manager has been backed and supported by so many fans like Carlo has this season, we have had a lot of injuries that have affected this club more than most because of the under strength of the squad, most especially in midfield, but Carlo has tinkered too much, changed a winning team too often, we still do not have statements or style about our game, one poster gets accused of being like a broken record, we’ll turn the record over and see Carlo play the same system with the same players against mediocre teams at Goodison Park, that fail time after time, then trying to rectify matches with poor, very poor substitutions that baffle not only us supporters but his players trying to implicate that style, even when we winning like last night, those subs. last night were the start of Crystal Palace’s comeback, IMO, just completely gave them the opportunity to attack and get the equaliser, in fact they looked more likely to get the winner.

I understand those getting behind Carlo and I realise the enormity of the job he has to get us back to the top, but he doesn’t help himself sometimes and he isn’t infallible, he’s human so he can and does make mistakes, some of them again and again, even they have proved they don’t work, again and again and again.

Richarlison should have had at least 3 goals yesterday and DCL should have had 2. If DCL had lobbed the keeper on the first and put it to the keeper's right on his second they'd have been simple goals. If we could finish we'd be celebrating a 5 or 6 goal victory. Not putting away chances is not the manager's fault.

At the very least we are creating chances which we weren't doing much of in previous seasons.

If you want to look for problems then one of the major ones defensively was James not chasing back and simply jogging and letting Palace players run past him. However, his left foot and right even for the finish are something no one else in our midfield has the quality of. A luxury player and one we need. He wasn't on the field when they eventually equalised though.

For me we played well, finishing aside, were by far the better side.

Richarlison is really getting on my nerves this season. He'd be a 50m player if he could finish. I doubt we will recoup that money unless he starts scoring regularly.

I think the commentator said that DCL has only scored 3 times in 15 games including last night, and I don't think Richarlisons record is much better either. So when as displayed last night when neither could hit a barn door with a banjo then how come at no point was it ever considered to give Josh King a run up front. I know he was predominantly signed as a back up in case mainly DCL got injured but obviously Carlo doesnt rate him, so you have to question why was he bought.

The one positive last night was having James back, I know some at the beginning questioned his signing, but he has demonstrated yet again he is a class above anything at the club. Hardly ever loses possession and his range of passing is a joy to behold, and his finishing isn't bad either. The problem is can we get him on the pitch often enough and can we get consecutive games out of him. I thought Tom Davies was our best midfielder but I am not convinced that Digne adds anything to our game playing further forward. Last night James found Digne in acres of room time and time again but he failed to deliver any quality.

I think that result makes it virtually impossible to get 4th and to be honest I hate the Europa league but we look like we will struggle to make it anyway. Which will make it harder to attract the sort of quality we need. Just a footnote looks like Moyes is doing what he excels at give him a group of mainly average ability Rice excluded and he gets them to perform way above were most would expect them to finish.

'Must do better' even with some of the deadbeats we are blessed with !

We need to get shut of at least 6 players in the summer and replace them with quality, preferably under 30 and definitely not injury-prone. We need 2 dynamic midfielders that can chip in with a few goals; a replacement for Seamus Coleman; a good wide man; and 2 more strikers as Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison are too inconsistent. All strikers have barren spells but these two are out and out wasteful.

A massive season coming up for Carlo. Spew it and he will be gone. Financial Fair Play doesn't apply next season, so Mr Moshiri has to break the bank to the tune of around £300 million. Offload the deadwood at a huge loss – if anyone will have them, that is. Should recoup some cash with the sale of Kean. Maybe get rid of Richarlison. He ain't that good in my opinion.

Same thing, year-in & year-out. We are all sick of it and it has to change. Time to act, Mr Moshiri.

Given that both Allen and Doucoure were absent, I thought we played OK, certainly in terms of creating chances and the opposition not really bothering us. We could easily have scored 6, and if we had done then Ancelotti would be hailed as the Professor. But we didn’t.

Given 1-0, it wasn’t unreasonable to try to defend the lead, and if we’d kept attacking and left ourselves exposed, then Ancelotti would be criticised for poor game management and a too-cavalier approach.

I don’t see a lack of winning mentality. I see small margins on which the result can hinge. We know with the full strength first 11 we can beat most teams, perhaps beat anybody. But we haven’t had that full strength on too many occasions, we lack strength in depth, and have suffered for it. None of that suffering is unexpected. Disappointing, yes, but not unexpected.

We need additional quality to provide strength in depth, that much is obvious. We can still reach top-4, but the gods would have to favour us. Perhaps we lack the strength in depth to properly compete in Europe. That will be remedied, but not overnight. More patience is needed, that is a simple fact. Keep calm and carry on.

For me, when we have to play most of the pre Ancelotti players, there are only 2 worse teams in this league, Sheffield United and West Brom. Newcastle? They beat us twice!

We fans are expecting too much and there is an element of delusion amongst us in the way we expect to beat "the likes of Palace' etc. This is a hard league with good professional fit teams (except ours and the current bottom two). To win you have to compete in every game for 95 odd minutes and we just do not do that and haven't for years, no matter who the manager is. Moyes was the last full time manager who the players actually 'competed' for with any regularity.

We are not a top 4 club or team at present and have not been for decades. We are a poor team playing poor football who will finish somewhere between 7th and 12th with a negative goal difference.

I hate us being what I am describing but I think I am being realistic here and I see no signs of improvement because I have seen and heard all the optimism so many times before. We never learn.

I just want to see exciting attacking football like Leeds fans watch when we dominate some games and win 3-0 without all the nervous heart stopping finishes we have to every game. I would kill for a modern day Thomas/Latchford combo and some of those 4-3 type exciting games.

Football is meant to be entertaining and we haven't been entertained for years and years!

Some happy clappers will slag me off for being negative, which I know is a crime here, but I am just being realistic at our current position. At the same time I HOPE it changes, as I have for so long now. Fortunately I have supported us since 1966 so I know what winning looks like.

For me, the reason we did not get all 3 points is quite simply our strikers having a very bad day. I agree with the poster who said that Guaita did not make any out of the world saves, our strikers just gave him enough opportunity that he knew if he kept his composure they would not score.

Graham Sharp my arse. Not one shred of the aggression sharp had.

He would have been better off going to Fulham to at least get game time.

Comfortable without doing a great deal in my opinion and our keeper almost unemployed for large parts.

Another wasted opportunity to add to the list. Sadly even my optimism is waning now and I fear we will be saying that about the season come May; wasted opportunity underpinned by wasted opportunities.

We won't sign Danny Ings. That's as improbable as us doing a Leipzig and hoovering up a higher volume of younger players to improve the squad.

We'll most likely buy 3 players for the first team, a reserve goalie (Olsen or someone like him) and a couple of prospects for the u23s / u18s.

We will therefore still be reliant on the likes of Gomes and Iwobi to make up the numbers.

We are not good enough to hold out especially when both slow centre backs inexplicably start to push up and out wide.

Guess what’s going to happen next..

We can only play either Keane or Mina and we must stay deep and defend. We failed to shut up shop, despite making defensive subs.

We don't have a midfield general. Someone to control and dictate play. James has the vision and creative elements but lacks pace and the defensive skills.

We know and the opposition know we play backwards to often.

Before judging King let him play a few games. Rest or rotate with Ric or Dom. Kings runs would help James play more forward balls.

I agree that out of Delph, Besic, Bolaise, Iwobi, Sigurdsson, Gomes, Kenny, Walcott, Tosun, Bernard, Kean and King . It’s likely combination of Iwobi , Siggurdson or Gomes will still be here for the squad unless we get good offers. If we did they’d be gone too.

Kean is the only one who we will get a good fee for but if we can get 50m+ for the sales it will help the desperately needed strengthening of the first team.

Alex Ferguson may have had his reasons for saying so but I only ever seen a player that wanted to win and showing he could be aggressive with his finishing.

He is on fire and yes in a lesser league but at EUR 20m surely we can take a chance on a 22 year old!

I was going to write what you said though Paul, because I think aggression comes in many different ways, and whereas you quite rightly say Sharp was always aggressive with his finishing, you never quite get the feeling that Dominic really means it, because he rarely tries to take the lace out the ball, so I agree he’s definitely not aggressive enough in front of goal.

We need to become more ruthless on and off the pitch, the current situation is simply unacceptable.

He shouldn't be compared to Sharp for a start but comparing him to anyone is rather harsh and too much pressure.

Their capabilities were far different and Sharp had more class. The volley v Liverpool was mentioned but Sharp was pulling them shots off and scoring even before that.

It doesn't need to be a debate but unconditional affection for Lewin brings it out and crusaders forget there wasn't a goal Calvert Lewin has scored that Sharp couldn't.

That is the main difference and the other way around doesn't work so far. At 24 Calvert Lewin still can't strike a ball.

As much as that hurts some, (god knows why) its glaringly obvious and he keeps showing it.

Richarlison has the aggression but hes too sulky, that his only consistency.

DCL might have sorted out his one touch goals in the 6 yard box, but he's like a rabbit in the headlights when it's a one on one with the keeper. And as much as people talk up Richie being world class, and he is very good, but he has as many games when he fluffs his lines, like yesterday.

We should have had this game dead and buried before half time and certainly by the time they'd poked one into the net. But yet again we blow it at home. W5 D3 L7 at home is abysmal and not worthy of a top 5 position. On their own these stats put us in a relegation fight and it's only a decent away record this season that keeps us in the top half.

However, reading through the comments, Christopher Timmins at 254 makes the comment: " in general play there was not much between the sides."

In general play there wasn't much between the sides and this comment was exactly my own thoughts watching last night's game. Given our ambition; given the manager we have in situ and given the players we can put out on the pitch, despite our injuries, there SHOULD be a difference between the sides - and that is a sad statement for a team who before last night was supposedly aiming for the top 4!

Onwards and upwards? Maybe not yet.

Hodgson brings on attacking players.

Ancelotti cost us the three points, just as culpably as DCL and Richarlison did with poor finishing.

This home form is extremely frustrating! Players need to get a grip or all the big bollocks talk they waffle means less than the nothing it means before they waffle it!

Comparing the two of them with aggression I think Dominic is more naturally aggressive than Graeme Sharp, Graeme was featured in an Everton programme, when he was playing, and compared himself with Steve McMahon, he said “ I’m not naturally aggressive like Stevie, aggression is second nature to him, I have to work hard at building my aggression up” or words to that effect and I think when Andy Gray came to the club Graeme learned quite a bit off Andy including how to put himself about a bit more.

I think it’s been a long season for Dominic working alone up front week after week and maybe that is beginning to show now, although there was no excuse for the chances he missed last night.

Both the forwards were embarrassing with their misses last night and aren’t top quality finishers. I love DCL but his two one on ones and his lack of compusure in those situations are worrying. Richie is so frustrating too. He sulks and mopes around like a toddler all game and then fluffs all the opportunities that come his way.

Why do we retreat into the KITAP mentality when we actually can’t keep it right when we have slow and ponderous midfielders and defenders who wouldn’t know what a clean sheet was even if they worked in an bedding factory?

It is so frustrating and soul destroying supporting Everton. Nothing ever hated and nothing ever will.

For me you state all the bear minimum requirements. Any players not giving their all, which at the moment is once a week, should be ashamed. However, in the world of the idolised, skin products, nice hair cuts, fashion shots, image rights, silly dance celebrations, PR controlled interviews, PR controlled social media messages, agents, mansions, supermodel wives, endorsements - maybe football isn't as important to the players as it once was!

I follow Everton, but my interest in football has waned so much that I watch no other games. We laud effort - as said, the minimum requirement even in a school team or a Sunday league team.

This isn't a criticism of your post at all Colin, just my observations on the game in general.

I take your point. Although for the record I did not post anything about Lineker or Stuart on the live forum.... just in case anyone misunderstands your post. I rate both players highly. Especially Lineker.

I didn’t say you posted that, I said people on the forum did, the same forum you were using to back your views on the game. I’m calling into question that value of opinions in the forum

Neither Coleman or Rodriguez looked to be struggling, our two best player's at the time.
It's obvious Gomes and Sigurdsson don't have the 'legs' anymore and struggle to cope with the physicality of the Premier league, if you can't have any control in midfield, you will always struggle.

Someone in a previous post said Gbamin was a real 'box to box' type player. Jesus, I'm struggling to understand how he came to that conclusion based on the number of times the guy has actually played for us.

It was unfair of Carlo to bring him on as sub in that situation.

I did an article on here many years ago about my dislike of Moyes. It was entitled something like " Worse than Bingham, worse than Smith, worse than Walker". Might even still be available. Guess what??? I got abuse for it 😂

Wonder what Brands thinks of him?

Cheers Mwila!

With luck we might sneak top 4 next season but it will rely on everyone staying fit.

Sadly, we could have spent £100m in Jan and still fall short. It's the same reason Spurs, Villa, West Ham etc didnt also recruit the extra few who might make a difference.

You never do things by half “worse than Walker”? Isn’t that an oxymoron?

Other teams copped on how to play Everton. Both Calvert Lewin and Richarlison are easy marked and channeled into positions they can't score from. Defender told to push up on them and don't worry of space behind, they will rarely run into it. Pressurise the Everton right back and run into the near post space that Keane vaccates. Most goals against Everton this season have been via this route.

Did you ever doubt his aggression. His volley v Spurs at Goodison when he was 20 was all you needed to see if there were doubts about his aggression.

Ask Richarlison about Calvert Lewin and he'll give him race reviews, all team mates do but at some point they'll be slagging each others commitment or attitude on the pitch.

I want Calvert Lewin to add to his traits and being aggressive or determined will help him.

Does anyone think Drogba was born a naturally aggressive footballer? He sure was when he was 24 and needed more to succeed in the premiership.

His slithering off to Man U then trying to nick our best players on the cheap was the final straw for me. I’m glad we can at least agree on that.

ICIT!!

The bench was made up of two young keepers Joao Virginia and Tyrer who were never going to get on unless there was an injury or sending off of Olsen.

The same could be said of the other 3 young subs - Nkounkou, Broadhead and John. Only in extraordinary, exceptional circumstances, would you expect any of those to enter the fray.

That left us with four realistic senior subs. One of those was used early on 30 minutes and was the obvious one - Siggy on for the injured Gomes.

Coleman was subbed out like-for-like with Godfrey (for many, Everton's player of the season) on 76 minutes. James on 79 minutes for Gbamin. Both Coleman and James have been long-term injured and when previously returning to the team have suffered another injury which meant we lost them for 3-4-5 games.

Coleman played 3 times for Ireland during the International break. Perfectly understandable to protect him from a potential stress injury. A case has been made that Godfrey and Holgate should have switched flanks, but that of course would have meant a double positional change on the single substitution and so the potential for even more disruption.

James was the conductor of all that was good about Everton last night. Like all great players, time is suspended with the ball at his feet. The grains of sand falling through the hour glass seem to be suspended. There is never a like-for-like substitute for James. But again, given his long lay off, why risk potentially losing him for another 4-5 games to keep him on for the closing 10 minutes?

The only real alternative to Gbamin for James was King and re-jigging Siggy's position and fitting King in with Richy and DCL. That, or running the risk of keeping the fatigued James on and withdrawing either Richy or DCL for King instead.

Neither of our front two covered themselves in glory last night, but they did get in position on numerous occasions to score. And that is what Carlo probably punted on. That either would get another chance to score (Richy did, but hit his shot into the ground to make the keeper's save easier) rather than King who frankly has shown nothing in his appearances with us.

As for some comments in this thread - 'Calvert-Lewin isn't a footballer' and 'Calvert Lewin has worse feet than Niasse. Graham Sharp my arse. Not one shred of the aggression Sharp had.'

Mindboggling.

Dom was a tad dull last night. To consider him based on last night as not even a footballer, worse than Niasse, or lacking Sharp's aggression suggests to me what poor recall of all 3 players and poor judges of footballers those commentators are.

Another guy to look at is Enock Mwepu….also at RB Salzburg and also Zambian. His passing range is magnificent.

Also as one of a handful of Zambians who support Everton...nothing would make me happier than to see a Zambian score a screamer for Everton. If its against Everton that would break my heart

He still went on to play some good stuff and score with a great finish. That switch pass he does so often must be so predictable and the opposition must know he's going to do it. But he does it and no-one stops it.

Still massively frustrated. Missed opportunity. It's sad because if we do manage 6th or 7th, which will be Europe and would have been considered progress at the start of the season, even the likes of me will be bemoaning what could have been.

Did you ever doubt his aggression. His volley v Spurs at Goodison when he was 20 was all you needed to see if there were doubts about his aggression.

Ask Richarlison about Calvert Lewin and he'll give him race reviews, all team mates do but at some point they'll be slagging each others commitment or attitude on the pitch.

I want Calvert Lewin to add to his traits and being aggressive or determined will help him.

Does anyone think Drogba was born a naturally aggressive footballer? He sure was when he was 24 and needed more to succeed in the premiership.

I try not to talk out of affection I don't know the lad and if you are seeing aggression in his finishing with his feet you are one in a million mate.

Anyway back to the argument, that Sharp goal v Spurs and the one at Anfield were sensational goals but that’s not the aggression I’m talking about, one of the best goals I ever saw at Goodison was by Gerry Humphreys, one of the most mild mannered players who ever put on a Blue shirt versus Sheffield Wed, was Derek Temple aggressive, remember his goal versus Sheffield Wed and many more to go with it. I’m talking about his temperament, if you met him you’d understand, he never backed down but it wasn’t in his nature to be aggressive.

Now you are calling Dom out (it's his name) for not having 'aggression in his feet' having claimed Niasse had 'better feet' and 'not a shred of aggression Sharp had', making a hybrid of the two.

First, Dom (it's his name) has excellent close control (and 'feet') under pressure.

Second, he is possibly our most fearless and aggressive player, or do you not notice how he batters opposition centre backs and is happy to practice the dark arts and leave one on them to know they are in a game?

If you want to claim his shooting isn't as potent as Sharp's then say that, because your original post is not saying that at all.

On the chances that fell his way last night, it's not power that was required but sharpness and craft. And as I said earlier on that score Dom (it's his name) was a tad 'dull' in that last night and a pulse beat away in his decision making. It happens.

I still think Carlo needs time and signings. In my opinion, our best players are Godfrey, James, Doucoure and Allan (with Richarlison and Digne when they're in form). We still have too many players who have been bad signings made by past managers and we are being held back as a result.

Some of the comments about DCL are way over the top. The lad needs to work on his finishing but he's been much-improved this season. So too, has Tom Davies. I don't agree about DCL not having aggression or being unable to kick a ball. One of the best finishers I've seen was Romario. He used to pick a spot and often, the ball barely hit the back of the net. He'd send the keeper the wrong way or shift the ball a yard and make the goalkeeper commit. DCL plays the ball too closely to the goalkeeper too often. Contrast this with James last night. One chance, one area where he could put the ball and he finished. That's the difference. The top forwards like Aguero, Sallah, Mane, Kane, need fewer chances and are much more ruthless in front of goal. Unfortunately, those type of players are out of our reach.

As others have said though, it is fine margins. We have ridden our luck at times this season and have been defensively solid. Fans on TW have talked about "defensive masterclasses". The performances at Wolves and Spurs spring to mind. If we had won 1-0 last night then we'd be optimistic again. The paucity of options on the bench tells you everything about the quality of our squad. Letting Kean and Walcott go seemed short-sighted. Getting King in and hardly giving him a chance seems an odd one: we might as well have given Ellis Simms a chance.

I was thinking last night, how many times have all of Carlo's signings played together? It can't be many. Most of them were prominent in the first few games but since we signed Godfrey, I can't think of a time when they all started.

Thinking of investing in a lower league team though...just to help them out with kits and logistics though. They could become my new local favorite team.

All that has to be done is spoil their play, pressurise their shooting and have them shoot from positions that the goalkeeper is comfortable with. The Crystal Palace Goal keeper was very comfortable, whatever his name is. Probably was in comtention for motm for the first time in his career.

Other teams with the space Everton forwards had would have given him a nightmare with movement and running onto to shots. I would describe both Richarlisons and Calvert Lewin forward play to be sterotypical. They are both capable of better movement and positioning, as they are coached to do.

I do not blame him for taking the Utd job at the time, I doubt not many Managers would have turned that opportunity down, likewise with Rooney wanting to sign for them, both occasions we felt how dare you, whereas in reality neither could turn the opportunity down of signing for the best English side at the time.

The way Moyes went running and even buying a new pair of trousers to meet Ferguson was laughable at best.

However for the 11 years he was at Everton, for every youngster or decent players he bought, his had to sell at least one talented player, year in year out to balance the books.

Everytime we looked just a player or so from competing, someone would nip in and take a player or two.

Devil and deep Blue sea, had a decent Manager, but no money to buy, unless we sold, now we have the money we had to go through 4 Managers, before landing Carlo.

Take another season or so, before we can finally get rid of a lot of the players bought by the previous 4 Managers,

Once that happens and we can build a stronger squad not just starting 11, but quality strength in depth as well.

After a win. Carlo fantastico has improved these players no end. They have thrived under his err tutelage. . . then when we lose they are all back to being crap again.

If there is such a thing as reincarnation I want to come back as Carlo. His acolytes give him all the credit when we win and exonerate him of the blame when we lose.

15 months of zombie football and not only is it everyone elses fault...we are meant to be grateful to Carlo for serving it up.

Vini Jones had aggression. Some would argue desire, but it didn't mean I wanted (or would want) players like him at Everton.

Kevin Sheedy was not know for outwardly "get stuck in" aggression, but he had desire to win and compete.

I think the Steve McMahon example is a great one of combining aggression with desire.

I also think Ben Godfrey is blessed with natural controlled aggression and desire.

I know it's a play with words, but I know what I mean when I say there is a difference between aggression and desire. We can all, if we wanted, do a 2 footer tackle and be considered aggressive. But a good player controls that aggression with a desire to win.

Moyes would make a great civil servant. A miserly, penny pinching jobsworth who efficiently keeps his books in tact. But two things throw him off kilter: expectation and money. The minute he’s in line for a promotion at work he freaks out because of his inferiority complex. When he has money he’s like a drunk lottery winner blowing his cash on cocaine and Bilyaletdinovs. Obviously the WHU season is freaking him out as he’s already talking about considering bids for Rice and Soucek. If he’s sells them, blows his cash on blow the team will tank and he can blame it on being a “selling club.” Then if he avoids the sack he can quietly rebuild in his jobsworth counting house far from the madding crowd.

So it’s not just me then experiencing de ja vu at regular intervals every day in every thread

Do you mean you personally are thinking of investing money in them? I feel a strong friendship between the two of us is about to start!

However, past achievements elsewhere should not absolve the man from scrutiny of the performances he’s overseeing here, at this present moment in time, and I don’t see why people get such a bee in their bonnet whenever someone pipes up to say they’re struggling to buy into him.

It’s almost as though some are so overly enamoured with the idea of a ‘big name’ being in charge that they are prepared to go balls deep with unwavering backing on that basis alone. Some (for whatever reason, whether that be they think he’s past it, never had it, or looks too much like Grandpa Munster let out the lab) didn’t want him in the first place and will dig the knife in at every possible opportunity. Others, would prefer to keep mind open, fingers crossed and simply see how things play out before praising or pillorying

Despite deliberately planting my feet in that third category, I have still found some of the gushing comments and ‘Carlo Fantastico’ shite (from both supporters and pundits) to have been excruciatingly over the top and premature. I’ve seen statements like ‘Ancelotti is the best thing ever to happen to Everton’, ‘If Everton don’t win trophies under Ancelotti then they never will’, ‘Ancelotti has transformed the whole mindset and culture of the club’, ‘These sort of players would never have signed for Everton before Ancelotti’ etc... when thus far we’ve achieved fuck all, faced no competition from any comparable clubs when it comes to procuring a player and followed up a long-awaited victory at Anfield with feeble showings in the next 4 league games and a Moyes-esque cup exit where the focus was firmly on defending doggedly for 90 minutes while occasionally shouting “not the face”.

It’s one thing to believe in the guy and be glad that he’s here, it’s another thing entirely to attempt to canonise his arse when it’s currently getting kicked about his own gaff with great regularity.

It’s true Ancelotti has got to be given time to implement his ideas but we should, by now, at least be gleaning some sort of impression of what those ideas might be, surely?

There is no clear identity forming, no picture out on the pitch coming into focus and, for me at least, it’s difficult to pinpoint exactly what kind of team Ancelotti is trying to shape here 15 months after walking through the door.

There is rarely even the faintest flicker of fluidity in our play. Instead stilted, painfully slow progression up the pitch is the order of the day, in the hope we can eventually work it out wide for a cross, punctured by repeated, lazy and often needless turning and playing the ball back only for Michael Keane to lump it long.

How many good performances have this team put in, from first whistle to last? Even in games where the result has gone our way we have been outplayed for large periods of the game. Opposition teams have more shots on goal than we do with alarming regularity.

Burnley, Fulham, Newcastle, West Ham and Leeds didn’t come to Goodison and just dig in, sit back and scrape a win. They all comprehensively outplayed and out fought us. Cue the familiar cries of ‘how can Carlo compete with the crap at his disposal?’ and ‘he’s used to working with better quality players’ etc. Strip the Caped Crusader of his bat-suit and kit him out as Barney the Dinosaur instead and you might reasonably expect it to impede his crime fighting efficiency against top-tier super villains, but with his vast years of training and elite-level experience he still shouldn’t be getting viciously filled in by a fuming Karen kicking off over some perceived slight outside fucking Farm Foods.

Only Burnley and West Brom have created less chances from open play than Carlo Ancelotti’s Everton team this season. That is shocking.

What has put points on the board is the fact that our conversion of said chances has been unusually high in large part because of Calvert Lewin being in barnstorming form earlier in the season. However...as has been shown recently... that is simply not sustainable. The game against Burnley unfolded like many we have won this season with the sole difference being Calvert Lewin only slotted one of the chances to come his way. Yesterday Richarlison finished with his feet like he’d just wriggled off Annie Wilkes’ fucking bed. Miss some/score some is a normal state of affairs for any striker. Nobody is going to net every time. What we need to do is to find a way to actually take a game to the opposition, to increase the tempo and create far more chances so that each and every miss isn’t instantly perceived as fatal to our chances of picking up points.

Add in the fact that we have the worst defensive record in the top half of the table and are also piss poor in possession then it is clear very few of this teams faults have actually been solved, but were merely smudged over by a much better than expected start to the season.

Listening to some of the pre-match pundits on auto-pilot proceed to wax lyrical about how Ancelotti is a winner and how he has Everton ‘challenging for a Champions League place’ this season, immediately prior to witnessing the latest in a line of turgid, lacklustre performances reminds me of ‘The Irishman’. A crap cgi faced Robert De Niro (risibly being referred to by everybody around him as ‘the kid’) stomping ‘menacingly’ toward a guy on the deck....but in reality looking like a jerky, post-shit, piss-can in a public toilet complete with keks round his ankles, after realising too late there’s no bog roll remaining and he best try to make a break for the adjacent cubicle at an ambling speed sufficiently cautious but swift enough to avoid severe cementing of both arse checks....before supposedly pummelling his grounded foe with ‘powerful’ boots about the body and face that wouldn’t flatten fucking candy floss without it bouncing straight back:

Link

So far, the body of work Ancelotti has been building up here has been way more ‘Warburtons Bread commercial’, or ‘Rocky and Bullwinkle’, so let’s not make out like we’ve all been sitting through Raging Bull.

But in the interim, poor performances by players and manager alike should absolutely be called out.

Sad thing is, last night wasn't as bad as some of the previous ones, which makes it even more frustrating. That game should have been beyond sight and the substitutions shouldn't have mattered. But then that is perhaps poor on the coaching side; it was still only 1 - 0, so why change it?

The point I am making is this, when a player (Everton) is having an off-day the whole team seem to follow suit, and while eventually the nameless player get's subbed the malaise seems to carry on as if it is somehow, contracted by all the others.

John Daley @ 337, great to see you back John, with your analysis and humour in balanced proportion. I was only asking not so long ago if anyone knew what had 'happened' to you, but glad my fears have been allayed. Please make it more regularly as you do have an appreciation, by me at any rate.

But 'I withdrew James because he was tired'. Do me a favour, he hasn't played for a month and is not exactly the most energetic of players on the pitch. He should try working 14 hour shifts at the Royal for far less in a year than he makes in a week. Unbelievable.

It does demonstrate though how far Ancelotti has to go to empathise with the fans. I am told by Italian friends that he had the same problem at Napoli, a club with a very similar demographic to Everton.

Fantastic stuff. You have been missed.

I cant wait to see those who don't recognise themselves make a dive to join you in "the third category "

I see its already started just four posts after you said it

I can't call him Dom every time I refer to him, it'd feel like there is affection influencing my analysis of him.

I just watch him and see no skill with time on the ball. Jelavic was a great one touch finisher and great in the air and he got stick for the same problems Calvert Lewin has.

If you are seeing aggression in his finishing you are one in a million mate.

Each to their own though I hope he curls one in the top bin from 20 yards this weekend so I can see a memorable goal from him.

Darren 331, I blamed Carlo partly for yesterday and I am fully behind him. Had 2 chances been taken we wouldn't need to mention him but they weren't taken and he made poor decisions.

Do you honestly think the club will progress by going gung ho in games and losing some of the caution, like Under Martinez, Silva, Koeman to an Extent?

Personally I think we need to do whatever it takes to get to the top level the we'll probably have a new manager if we get there anyway.

Hes not here for 10 years and I would like him to leave the club in a position where we are not rebuilding yet again.

Followed by the hype and "futures bright" nonsense only to be smacked in the face with reality when we try to play open football against Palace and Stoke.

We have been down that road with better players and its cost Moshiri millions and set us back.

As boring as it is ( and I am glad i've had no season ticket this season) we need to do something different than recent years or keep being Everton.

Brighton go for it every week would you swap positions with them?

Despite what happened in the second half, the one goal just wasn't enough because Everton just can't defend well when it matters.

They don't have the class personnel to shut down even the poorest teams where it matters and that is the middle of the park.

Those utilized in that area are a tad slow to say the least and cannot get behind the ball quick enough when the opposition are in possession.

Oddly enough Everton have had very poor results following each of the RS games.

It's impossible to see Everton finishing in the top six

Hopefully Carlo will be addressing these issues before next season comes around and should forget about any Euro aspirations right now.

Let's get some of the young guns into the team and see what they can do because they sure couldn't do any worse than this lot.

I am desperately hoping that Carlo doesn’t go down the ‘old boy’ route this summer and instead goes down the Ben Godfrey route. We need more bread and butter players to formulate a team structure, and homogenise into a cohesive, organised team. Quality players we can depend on , understand each other and grow together. Only then will we start playing as a proper Everton team should.

I'm in the third camp.

"Some... didn’t want him in the first place and will dig the knife in at every possible opportunity". Quite.

Brent Stephens (the guy who called somebody a twat on the LF because he criticised Carlo ?

"I`m in the third category" hahahahah

"Some... didn’t want him in the first place and will dig the knife in at every possible opportunity". And our man doesn't even see the relevance of that! You couldn't write it. Well he just did!

Good luck with that.
You would have to get the legs on his kecks taken up though. ,"If there is such a thing as reincarnation I want to come back as Carlo."

Good luck with that.
You would have to get the legs on his kecks taken up though. ,,,1,18:09:55,,109.249.181.21,ok,23848,04/06/2021 18:09:55,Tomrichards2@outlook.com,reader,,,no 1144756,40643,toffeeweb,06/04/2021, Brent Stephens,,"Darren Hind, "I'm in the third category. I've always had an open mind about him and still have".

Couldn't write it!

Yesterday was a really good game ( in my opinion) if the two forwards had converted their chances then it’s a different thread.

Lots focus on our home shit football form, but never mention our very good away form and performances. This is the premiership it’s much fucking harder than any league in Europe/ the world. Ffs the baggies twatted Chelsea should we have kept Sam ( no we should not).

What where the expectations at the season start, I bet all evertonians would have taken being 8th on 47 points with us having 9 games to go only 5 points off 4th place and a game in hand.

Good to see a fellow Zambian who supports Everton!

I lived in Zambia for 6 years back in the 1970s, first in Kabwe then moved to Kitwe.

I don't recall Power Dynamos back in those days and followed Kabwe Warriors as that was our first home in Zambia.

My second team was Mufulira Warriors. Had to be with a name like that!

I think the majority on here are in John's 3rd category to be fair. Some are overly the manager can do no wrong, others will continuously see no right as they didn't want him or don't want him. But I think most glad to have someone of his standing in the game. I've said before that Chelsea and then City done the stepping stone approach of improving the manager, which gradually helped them improve the team. But over years, not 15 months. Bear in mind some were judging (both ends of the spectrum) after 4 months. John puts it better than most of us try to.

I hope the manager improves our position and improves the standard of the squad, with a trophy and European football along the way. But that will be after 3 - 4 years. Then the next incumbent will be an improvement on Ancelotti with a better platform to build on from the one he was handed over.

I wouldn't say we were "outplayed" by West Ham, Burnley or Newcastle. We had much more possession and the same number of shots on goal. The difference was that they were more efficient, and because our expectations were higher we view it more negatively than a neutral would. Fulham and Leeds, yes they were better in every respect and deserved to win. No bones about it.

As for the "style." It's classic Serie A style, slow, trying to pass around and wait for high percentage opportunities be it from open play or set pieces. England got all the way to the world cup semi final with a game plan heavily reliant on set pieces. Nothing in the rules against that. Now, does everyone like the style? Apparently not. Many would prefer a fast counter attacking style like Leicester or to copy Liverpool. But that's different to saying there isn't a style. The other thing is how well we execute the style. All too often we run into trouble with the slow composed build up because Gomez is slow witted, Richarlison is selfish, or because Sigurdsson chooses not to participate. The gameplan is there, the execution is lacking.

Now you could argue "well let's play a different way then," in which case I would say lack of speed (Gomez, Sig, James, the CBs) lack of ability (Iowbi, Davies) prevents us from trying to emulate Liverpool style wise.

I personally believe that Carlo has improved players (DCL for eg) and that given time the team will do well under him.

Liverpudlians seem to know quite a bit about Ancellotti, I was talking to the only one I can debate with sensibly, and when I said I don’t like playing without natural width, my mate said Ancellotti’s teams are usually narrow in midfield, so it’s something I’m looking forward to finding out.

I think you need to have quick technical players, if you prefer not to play with much width, and as much as it was horrible to watch, I think our best games have been when we had four centre backs playing right across the back four?

I’m hoping Ancellotti is just trying to instil a defensive pragmatic game into us because he finds the other side of the game much easier to implement, but that’s something we aren’t going to find out until he signs more players?

Europe is usually loaded with fresh CBs amongst the French and German Leagues.

Keane always gets found out the higher he pushes and it can't go on. Shame Mina is unreliable with fitness because I think he'd be solid over 38 games.

I think we need a Keeper, Right Back, 2 Central Midfielders, a natural Left footed wide man and and Centre Forward, all of very good quality at least to even think about becoming a top side.

I'd take Celik at Right Back all day over Aarons too.

You might be right but I hope not unless we can unload some of the CBs we have and I can't see us getting the kind of money we'd want for them in this market.
My priorities would be a right back, a striker and someone who can play wide and create for us

Paul, Celik is one I don't know much about (to be honest I can't say I'm that well up on possible buys for us in the next window). Other teams being linked with him?

His agent (like most agents) will be throwing all kinds of names out there.

From the stories I have read, Ancelotti would prefer a tall Right Back.

Our dismal home record continues. I don't know if it is because of the absence of the supporters at Goodison or is it something else but our home form this season is awful. If we had played better at Goodison, we would be now in the top four.

We played well yesterday and probably deserved to win. Crystal Palace also played well and had their chances. But the main difference was Guaita and his excellent performance. When a keeper has that sort of a match, there is not much you can do about that.

We scored one goal but that was it. Maybe Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin could have reacted better on those occasions but their goalkeeper was outstanding and that is the story of this game.

You have coined a completely new phrase in this thread I have never ever heard before, least of all related to football parlance.

'Aggressive feet'.

Even now I haven't a Scooby what it means. I'm guessing (with nothing to go on from the content of your posts) that it might mean shooting potency, having a powerful shot.

Would that he right? If it is I haven't made any sort of declaration or evaluation about Dom (it's his name) on his shooting prowess with his 'aggressive feet' as you falsely presume.

Having earlier referenced Graeme Sharp and stating Dom (it's his name) doesn't have 'a shred of his aggression' (oh yes he does. In spades), you now pluck the name of Jelavic out of the hat and, showing you can get some things right, correctly note Dom (it's his name) shares his efficiency in one-touch and headed goals.

This highlights reel of all Dom's (it's his name) 2020 goals reinforces that showing that he has skilful feet, if not the mysterious still-undefined 'aggressive feet.'

Dom's (it's his name) 2020 Goals

To those shown you can add his 4 goals for England and 4 more for Everton in 2021. They highlight again his speed and anticipation in being in the right place and 'skilful feet' and head in mostly taking just one touch to finish.

Dom (it's his name) has 'no skill with time on the ball' you claim. Watch from the link his goals v Newcastle last season and v WHU from Keane's exquisite chipped pass.

Plenty of memorable goals from the lad in the areas he performs his goal scoring skills best in.

But I guess, based on your posts this far, unless and until he smacks one in 'the top bin from 20 yards' you will continue to diss him on very flimsy grounds.

Was his goal in the 5-4 cup win over Spurs an example of 'aggressive feet'?

Just asking as an attempt to establish what the hell you're on about.

That DCL goal against WHU, from Keane’s Bechenbauresque long ball, was absolutely top class. And not untypical of DCL’s footballing abilities. But when I read some of the criticisms of him on here, I don’t really know what the fuck they’re talking about.

Similar with Richy. When he’s on form he’s apparently world class and we can’t win without him, but when he struggles (as ALL players do) he’s apparently childish and arrogant and can fuck off elsewhere.

I could go on similarly for other players, but fuck it, you get the drift.

Similarly for Ancelotti. Those who praise him in the slightest are, when there’s a bad result, sycophants who fail to see that he’s here only for one last payout to boost his pension. Yesterday’s man, a football dynosaur no better than Allardyce.

There’s a psychological thing called ‘anchoring’. This is when someone starts out with an opinion, and despite any evidence that might place that opinion in doubt, they stick with that opinion, and cherry-pick anything that they think supports it. They stay anchored in the opinion. Some might say that this is part and parcel of debate anongst Evertonians on this site. But I say it’s just fuckin tedious in the extreme.

Started off with Richarlison suspension, then we had both Coleman and Digne out at the same time, followed by Rodriguez, then Allan, get Allan back then Doucoure ends up out, Mina in and out, Calvert-Lewin out, Pickford out, then Olsen, plenty more that have missed games through a knock.

That is the problem we face, just a bang average back up, when players get injured, those moaning bastards across the park for the first time as long as I can remember have had a few injuries, I doubt there is a club in the world is as cursed as Everton for long term injuries over the years.

That is the problem we have at the moment, our decent players just cannot catch a break on the injury front.

It is like trying to replace Raquel Welch for a lass from out of the Grafton, you hope it pays off, but you know damn well you will not get the same satisfaction or result.

Gomez has not fared well although I just hope a proper pre season with no injuries will see him come good.

I think Richarlison’s form has been in the main not as good under Ancelotti but I am hopeful he will come good as we get better players and as such, play better football. I can see why people weary as he is Italian and so concerned about defensive footy but he has always signed very forward thinking players and his teams have always played slick attacking football previously.

Personally I think we have the right man and just time needed big time will tell. I like the man and that goes a long way with me (it did with Martinez who I really like as a man too although time showed he was not the coach for us)

Seriously good post there mate

"It is like trying to replace Raquel Welch for a lass from out of the Grafton"
Blimey, Raquel Welch? What is she like 80? That's like a Walter Smith era signing.

You really never knew what you picked up each night and I don't mean std''s.

The low lights, the close dancing, the gradual sobering up, the horror.

And then the match on Saturday .

Wow.. life's a bitch

We’ve had a bad run of injuries, of that there is no doubt. Other clubs complain constantly of fewer injuries than we’ve had, Liverpool being the pinnacle of moaning bastards. We just get on with it despite the injuries, and I’d have it no other way. I can’t stand these fuckers like Klopp and Mourinho who are serial moaners and cheating bastards, constantly bringing the game into disrepute.

We signed Allen, Doucoure and James, and they had an immediate effect. But then injuries stymied it all, started by the thug van Dijk deliberately taking out James in the first derby. Dirty cheating bastard that van Dijk is, then they have the audacity to complain constantly about his injury that was simply Karma, what goes round comes round.

We have to get behind Everton, behind Ancelotti, and especially behind the players, because there are enough corrupt cheating bastards out there eager to undermine anything to do with Everton, and we don’t want to be criticising the club, manager or players unless it is absolutely warranted.

We’re so fucking shite this season under Ancelotti, that if we carry on in this way, with the points per game ratio of just over 1.6, we’ll end up with around 62 points, which is IMPROVEMENT compared to what we’ve been achieving in past seasons. And improvement is all that we can reasonably expect.

So I’ll say it again, keep calm and carry on.

I think Darren learnt some new words whilst losing at scrabble. Now he’s determined to work those words: zombie, sycophant, and frothing into every post.

Also Tottenham linked with Sabitzer. If they are in ring for him we should be.

Would Norwich's likely promotion effect a move for Aaron's I wonder.

Maybe it's the dogs that are up with a restless me!

I had to open a window here when I read your post. the stench of hypocrisy is suffocating.

I laughed out loud when I saw you were talking about "Anchoring" Oh the irony. It would appear you have somehow picked up the term without quite grasping the fact that it doesnt only apply to people who don't subscribe to the fingers-in-the-ears denial which permanently clouds your judgement

The difference between Carlo's critics and you is that they recognise themselves. They do not set themselves up as paragons of virtue endlessly defending the rotten mast to which they have nailed their colours
You seem to think you are "outing" those who have had a belly full of anti football. You're not. We are already out and we are growing in numbers and we find apologism such as yours really tedious too.

If we are talking about the three categories JD eludes to. Then I am most definitely in camp two. I never wanted this guy. I never liked his style of football and I never believed he could work with these players I hate his anti football and I will be hammering away every time he sets out to spoil a game. Hope thats clear.
If I'm wrong and Ancelotti delivers the goods. I will come on here and hold my hands up and say so.

99% of Carlo supporters are free thinking open minded Evertonians. They know what they are watching and whilst they are patient and think he will get it right eventually. They will not apologise for shite. They will not make daft arsed claims about massive improvements of players (only to bury the same players as soon as we lose). They will not pretend this anti football we are watching can be construed as anything but These people will come on and offer powerful well reasoned arguments.
The apologist is incapable of raising counter argument. They cannot accept criticism, but they don't have the wherewithal to refute it. They will resort to personal abuse "Fuck off"..."Twat" "Gobshite" to anybody who dares points out that (As AC puts it). "The king is in the all together". They do this because deep down they know the criticism is true...They know that the guy they hailed as Carlofantastico has been here 15 months and we are still the EPL's ugly sister.

"Anchoring" eh ?

Seriously you’re embarrassing yourself. Stan, nor I, or Thomas, nor Danny, who you highlighted earlier in this thread have called you or anyone else a gobshite or told you to “fuck off”. Yet you call us apologists when according to you that’s the definition of an apologist. so how is Stan a hypocrite?

Moreover one poster who did tell a Carlo critic Ian Edwards specifically to “fuck off” you whimpered in front of when he defended his views and said “I don’t want to fall out with you because I’ve heard you are built like a brick shit house.” So, are you assuming that anyone who had a differing view might beat you up? Or are you assuming only Rob is capable of doing you over which is why you pussy foot around when he does PRECISELY what you said you hate but tediously harrass and abuse other posters who don’t tell Carlo critics to “fuck off”? have you looked into anger management therapy? Or a mirror?

Not for one minute do think Stan would abuse another poster he's far too articulate for that.

As for Rob. I have never had a cross word with him and would be delighted to have a pint with him when we meet - we`ve made arrangements a couple of times but it never panned out/

I descibed the abuse one poster took on the live forum because he criticised Carlo. it wasnt an opinion. It was a fact

Lovely to see you are still hanging on to my every word though

I do think Stans posts is very hypocritical and I do think if he is going to dismiss posts which disagree with his views as "tedious" He has to accept those doing the posting will find his objection equally tedious.

Critics of Carlo on this website may be growing but they are still a definite minority. Its amazing that all the garbage spouted about Carlo is acceptable, yet the 2-3 who criticise him are often told they are tedious or they are not proper supporters, or some other childish remark, for presenting the other side of the same argument....Its called shouting them down.

People who attack Carlo's critics like stan did, do so knowing they will get a lot of "Here, Here's" from the same group of people.

The good news is, It`s Always the same group of people...So who cares ?

Stan got here here’s from Mike Gaynes and Colin Glassar two of the most popular level headed people on here. Not “the gang” of myself, Dale, Don, Brent, Danny etc that you always call apologists even though we’ve never called you a gobshite or told you to fuck off which is your criteria of an apologist.

You need to reframe differing opinions as such and not take it personally. If we disagree it doesn’t mean we are ganging up or being mean or piling on (like you did with John Daley’s pretty reasonable neutral view) it just means we disagree that’s it. No frothing mouths, no sycophancy, we just have a different viewpoint than you. Maybe we are right maybe you are. Time will tell but we are just offering our honest opinions as fans of Everton.

Just checking.

And as to "So who cares?"... apparently you do. Intensely, vehemently and at great length. And, as always, insultingly.

Finishing in Europa league places would be an achievement given current form. And that is realistically the best we could expect and hope that Carlo gets a decent amount to improve the squad.

When somebody who shares you unwavering support for this manager calls the opposing view "Fuckin tedious in the extreme" He has, as far as your concerned "nailed it"...but when its countered by a much milder "your's is tedious too." ...Its "insulting"

Thanks Mr Gaynes.

I was searching for the perfect example of the hypocrisy I was talking about...And you've just provided it.

And your wrong about me caring about jibes too I just wont be shouted down by them.

Years ago I wrote an article hammering the signings of Koeman and Steve Walsh. You came on all guns blazing accusing me of being the boy who killed Tinkerbell (sigh) because I wouldnt clap.
Since then you have clapped and whooped through some of the worst football ever seen in this country.

Out of interest....How has that gone for you ?

What a martyr for the cause

It seemed to me that many posters had had enough of Ian’s constant anti Carlo / Everton agenda, on almost every thread and every LF for many many months. Coupled with his disappearing act when we win, his failure to give any credit when we do win and his constant posting when we lose (which happens too often for all our liking).

Which is his right to do of course and he can choose to support Everton anyway he likes. Equally it’s the right of other posters to point out to Ian that he is factually incorrect, and that’s he’s stating his opinion as fact then failing to address the factual inaccuracies when challenged.

Perhaps if he had done this he wouldn’t have been told to fuck off on that particular day.

Great post Stan.

The midfield struggled with Siggy on for Gomes, Davies misplaced passes too often but was tireless in his effort.
Carlo threw the game away subbing the effective Coleman and putting on Gbamin into the fray after 2 years on the sofa.
I would have kept James on if possible, and if he had to go I would have plonked King up top and withdrawn Richie into midfield.
So the lost points were down to the coach.

Thomas 416, forget Liz. Her son has first dibs on her, or so I’ve heard.

I tell you what though, football is even more unpredictable, in the sense that although the weather can be predicted quite well over the next few days, we never know what will happen from one match to another or even during the course of a single match. We do know, however, that the course of a game is changed by the smallest things. For example, if van Dijk hadn’t deliberately injured Rodriguez, the subsequent course of that derby would have been different, and in all likelihood van Dijk would not have been subsequently injured in the way he was. I fuckin love pointing this out to whining Reds, and they have no answers for it, apart from witty responses like “Fuck off, blue nose”.

Anyway, because of this unpredictability of football, I’ve never really been able to substantially comment on managerial team
selections, tactical choices, or in-game substitutions, apart from the occasional
irrational venting of anger if there’s a bad result.

But I can see broad patterns during a season, as no doubt we all can. During this season I’ve seen patterns of good attacking football when we have the requisite players available to provide it, and relatively dour defensive football when such players are injured. I see this as the manager being flexible, and adapting our style according to circumstances that include a lack of strength in depth, the latter being something which the Club is no doubt trying to address, starting with four excellent signings under the current manager. The other, cruder, pattern I can see is our developing points tally, which seems to reflect some progress over most recent seasons.

Now, it’s OK for people on here to criticise the manager and players as games are played, but it’s quite another thing to constantly harp on about the same fuckin things to the point where other people can no longer be arsed reading it. That’s tedium in the extreme. I’ve been guilty of repetition myself in the past, have been pulled up about it, and have drawn back, because when people see too much of it they might stop reading your posts fully, and start skipping through them, in which case there’s less point in writing them.

And it’s still fuckin cold outside.

Good man, Mwila!

If there really is a chance of Koulibaly arriving then surely he and Godfrey have to be the first choice partnership.

All speculation and should be treated as such, but Koulibaly and selling Mina / a centre back isn't going away so I'm starting to think (hope) something could be in this one.

I too would rather keep Mina over Keane, but guess that keeping Keane gives us more option for if we want to sit deeper and defend around the edge of the box?

A Godfrey & Koulibaly partnership would be awesome.

Liz was well out of order mate.
We went into Ma Egies for a drink.
She asked for a Strawberry Daiquiri. I told her the mild was good for her complexion and it all kicked off from there.

I had my doubts about Martinez as his previous team were relegated despite winning the Cup.
Koeman didn't seem to have had a great deal of managerial experience and I got the impression that his was a name bandied around at Highbury as a possible successor to Wenger.
Silva like Martinez got Hull relegated and like Koeman seemed to be remembered for an Olympiakos defeat of Arsenal.
However, I wanted all three to be successful, without it necessarily being immediate, as that would mean Everton would be, and this after Moyes who took over a train wreck but stayed too long and may have suffered the same financial backing that Wally Smith got.

So when Mr Ancelotti came in I looked on it as an experienced Manager with a winning pedigree that as well as being, hopefully, successful with Everton is also face saving for the Board.

However, none of this stops me being critical of some of what he or his team does in various games but also hold the view that he is trying to implement systems and a basis for improvement, and given what has passed in the last how many years, I'm now prepared to wait for 2 or 3 seasons and provided that some sort of improvement whether that is style and entertainment value or League position is seen. Jam tomorrow, or necessary preparation? Each probably to their own but remember, we all want the same outcome.

If people on here don't hold Ancelotti to the same scrutiny and criticism that they held to previous Managers then they should consider themselves not Evertonians but as Carlo Fanboys.

Utter lies. Firstly I wasn't just told to fuck off.

Secondly, I have on many occasions commented after wins. You obviously don't see them or choose to ignore them as they don't fit your narrative.

Thirdly, I only comment on what I see on the field and if you can't bear to read the truth about Ancelotti's utterly dull defensive football then tough cheddar.

I wouldn't shed too many tears if Holgate moved on, I think it would be good business, as we paid something like £1M for him and in these crazy Market Fees could easily net us a £20M+ profit. Koulibaly would certainly (although he's 30 soon) be a great addition don't think he is injury prone and would certainly spice things up, and provide vigorous competition for a partner alongside him.

Equally, Mason and Ben Godfrey have potential for the future. Surely, our priorities are more on right back, an energetic and pacey midfielder plus a right winger.

But... as long as your happy...

I have no problem with you at all and it's all forgotten as far as I'm concerned. I had far worse from other people.

My comment was because a poster seemed to make out I had just one person telling me to eff off.

30 is around the peak age for a centre back, so you're getting ready made proven quality for another 3 seasons to complement potential like Godfrey.

We may well have played some dour stuff under Ancelotti at times this season but the worse I've seen? No. I think back to the late 90s / early 2000s. What a terrible time to watch Everton.

Its true.
The bastard robbed her off me.
Getting along great with her in the Blob shop one night when he sauntered over a give her the smile and that was that.
I ended up with Bella Emberg

I’ve seen one post of yours (after the game v the RS) that was congratulatory in tone. And that’s it. Maybe I’ve missed the others. To be honest I don’t bother with TW as much as I did so I may well have. It might have some to do with just about any thread being hijacked by the same two or three anti Carlo/Everton posters. All the time.

Paul Hewitt has it right, there’s more important things to worry about.

If we play well at Brighton I'll say so. Please look out for my post.

Myself...woeful,even T.N.S play the game better than us!.

He absoutely goes missing when he is played in midfield. But he is basically in damage control mode from the off. His biggest priority is not making a fool of himself with the ball, because he doesn't have much confidence that he can move dynamically with the ball and progress it quickly from back to front, nor run back to defend if he gives it away in the trying. And his lack of confidence for thiese two things is precisely on the mark - for he is not good at either of those two things, and if he tried them, he may well cause more damage then good. Particularly because of his lack of leg speed in recovery once the ball is lost.

What I cannot understand, and what therefore infuriates me so much, is why Ancelotti still chooses to use him in midfield (not always, but often). The problem here, in my opinion, is Ancelotti. Not Sigurdsson.

Sigurdsson has actually done well this year - in the aspects of the game which relate to a no.10 - and that is how he should be looked at, because that is what - and all - that he is. Even this week, he had two decent shots on goal, the second og which, on many occasions, would have gone in. He also played a ball into DCL for a great chance on goal which DCL didn't convert.

That is why I think it's a no brainer to keep Sigurdsson, unless they happen to find one or perhaps even two bright young talents at the no.10 role (or as more attacking midfielders in a midfield 4, or as flexible forwards in a front 3; whichever). But it's also a no brainer that Ancelotti has just got to stop playing him in the midfield. Never again. And not a false 9 either. He's terrible at that too.
Only as a 10 or similar.

Whether he should play the 10 more often and James drifting in from the right flank, or whether James should play the 10 and Sigurdsson be used as a sub, is another matter. But it lies between those two choices only. (As an aside, if Sigurdsson and James play simultaneously, which I personally think is best, Gomes cannot play then too; the two central midfielders must be very mobile to compensate for the slowness of James and Sigurdsson).

That's not my Blues,I swear half of our squad are playing with the Carlo handbrake on and the rest couldn't care less and see their role as more of a fucking hobbie,when does this shite end?.

Before we know it,30 years will have passed without a Cup to cheer,am lucky,I saw some great teams playing dream football back the 80s,but what have younger Blues got to look forward to...more souless,gutless,backwards football?.

Si, the voice of reason mate, I liked it when you talk about Ancellotti trying to keep his players calm, and that’s another reason why I think Michael Keane, has got to be replaced, because he might be able to pass a ball sometimes, but he’s not the best under pressure, and I could see his nerves were gone at times the other night, well before he got sucked in for Palace’s goal.

Tony, we've discussed Keane with many others on here. There is no doubt in his improvement this season, but my turn to repeat myself. The moment we want to move higher up the pitch and play a higher line, his fragilities get exposed. At the age of 28, I don't see those being coached out of him as he's hitting peak period for a centre back where they won't really learn or change. He is what he is. You can't change pace but unfortunately his speed of mind and concentration hasn't changed.

I was baffled too. I’m unconvinced by Gomes but his set up for Rich was quality and I thought he played pretty well in that particular game

I remember rewatching the 1989 FA Cup final about 9 times. Not because I am a masochist but because something seemed off as in I felt like we'd won. Like in that film The Forgotten where the aliens change history and wipe everyone's minds but that one woman has an inkling something is off and things didn't go down as everyone remembers. I may need to rewatch that game again, I sense in the force that McCall actually scored a third goal before the aliens meddled with it.

It’s hard to teach calmness under pressure imo, you can learn people to relax, but then they usually show that same lack of calmness every time they are under pressure, and then it can transmit through the team, but this is something you will be much more aware of than I am Danny, and is why the army must have been a dangerous place at times mate, having to put your trust in people who were not the most capable?

Oh sorry no, that was 1986, and another horrible day suffered at the hands of our neighbours. I was convinced we were going to win in 1989, with my warped logic being that Liverpool had already hurt me enough, and we were going to get them back by winning the cup, they so desperately wanted, for all the fans who had died at Hillsborough.

When McCall scored in the last minute, I thought the Lord was finally going to get one over on the devil, and had an out of body experience. A miracle I thought? Until that bastard Rush, punished us once again. We will get them one day though, even if I’ve got to send my praises to Allah!

When the day of judgement finally arrives and we even things up. It's going to be epic. It will be about 400 -0 to Everton with 4 RS sent off, a sink hole will open up and swallow the Kop, Graeme Souness will spontaneously combust and from the flames a mythical liver bird will emerge that flies over Liverpool blowing blue flames from its mouth and destroying every piece of RS memorabilia.

You bring up some good points. I'd agree on keeping Sig. With other areas in need of improvement we don't have the cash to find someone younger and better than him. We may as well keep him as an alternate to James or reshuffle how we line up to accommodate both.

As far as why Ancelotti has used him in midfield. . . I agree he is a liability there but in other ways so are Davies and Gomez. I think that's the crux of the matter. All three of them have major flaws so he shuffles the pack hoping one of them can overcome his flaws and make a lasting impact. Unfortunately, the chosen one may have one good game then revert to type.

Kieran, that 89 final opens wounds I don't want to open as it's another debate, but the day we felt we had to accept being willing losers because of the very sad and unfortunate circumstances. I do not wish to be controversial by any means and can reflect now, but on the day as an 18 year old Evertonian, that's how I felt.

Tony, I could talk all night but won't get dramatic or bore you and the ToffeeWeb gang! But yes, the ability to remain calm under pressure is either a knack or can be taught; an ability to, often in a split second, make a decision based on what is in front of you is key to differentiating between a really good player and an okay player as I'm sure you are better placed than me. Speed of mind, stay composed. For some it comes natural, others need time to learn it. Sadly at 28, I think Michael Keane is beyond having it in his locker or being taught it.

You can relate it to leadership. On the football pitch, that is where I personally believe centre backs and defensive midfielders should take the lead regardless of whether they wear the armband. Keane is too placid and too often, too startled or lost. Centre backs need to be leaders, not followers.

A much used phrase is lead from the front. I would challenge that; the correct term is lead by example as you lead often lead from the rear. Forwards are like the Infantry; follow orders and go for the jugular, win the game with all of the support behind them. The orchestrators of the battle are the defenders and midfielders who can see the bigger picture of what is in front of them. If they panic and lose sight, our wall is breached and the enemy do a pincer movement on us.

Hope I kept that mostly football related! But yes, across all levels, remaining calm under pressure is vital to not losing your head and making rash decisions in key moments that cost the team and the result.

Good innings.

I don’t think Cloughie, SAF and Kendall combined could have done much with the squad he inherited. As long as we are improving I am happy to be patient.

I read somewhere recently (wasn't on here so everyone is safe and not going to get beaten up) that Carlo had little or next to no faith in some players, and basically has had to play the hand he was dealt when he first came to us.

Ian Edwards keeps harping on about the fact that Carlo has been "in charge for three transfer windows" and do you know what, Ian's right: Carlo has been in charge for three transfer windows, I can't dispute that...

Unfortunately (for Ian anyway) the first one started about 10 days after he came, and was over before Carlo's kettle had boiled for his first cup of Cappuccino. So we really can't count that one, allied to the fact that Carlo didn't have a clue about the squad he had inherited, so how he was supposed to know what positions needed improving on?

As the second half of season 2019-20 rolled on, it became obvious to Carlo the most important area which needed fixing was the midfield. This was duly done last summer, along with the signing of Ben Godfrey, who by the way has been absolutely outstanding and is nailed on for all the Player of the Season awards come the end of the season.

We all recognise the fact that the back four now needs improvement, certainly with pace, and this is something else I read somewhere that Carlo also recognises, hence the need for "dropping deep". Carlo must have thought last summer (transfer window #2 he's been in charge of) that the back four would be good enough for the season, and therefore concentrated on the midfield.

As has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, apart from the first half-dozen games or so, of this season, the three midfield players we signed have never played together due to injury. Was it just a coincidence that we got off to a flier when all three were in the team? I think not!

As for transfer window #3, that he's been in charge of, generally there are never any stand-out transfers in January. No clubs will sell their star striker or defender while they are battling for trophies or to avoid relegation, and I believe that the January transfer window just gone was the quietest on record, so why should we have been any different? We got Josh King, who by the looks of it, Carlo is not too keen on, and I believe he is being released at the end of this season.

I'll admit, I fall into John Daley's "category three", whatever it was. When Carlo first came to us, I said that everywhere he's been he's inherited a squad full of internationals, mostly world class, players. His squads only needed a little tweak to improve it. Coming to us, his squad didn't need a little tweak, it needed a full-blown major overhaul!! This wasn't going to be done in one window. It will need a couple more "Summer transfer windows" to get the squad he wants.

Certain posters don't like Carlo, fair enough, but managers don't win what he's won without having some knowledge of the game. What he knows about football could fill several volumes of the Encyclopedia Britannia; what us on here know could just about fill the back of a postage stamp. Carlo makes mistakes, every manager does, and I've been baffled by some of his substitutions, but mistakes doesn't make him a bad manager.

So come on, lads, let's all get together and back the club, the manager and the new stadium – Jonathan Tasker, take note! If Carlo fails, then fair enough, I will hold my hands up and admit it... but, for fuck's sake, give him the time to turn things around because, believe me, if he fails and goes, then forever more we will just languish in the Premier League, happy to just make the numbers up.

15 months and some were judging after 4.

Okay, the entertainment value ain't that great but that is usually the last thing to come when building a side. Carlo is doing a decent job – yes, he makes strange selections and decisions but who is perfect?

Next season is his big test as he should then have a squad he trusts.

I agree on Godfrey for player of the season. Calvert-Lewin has petered out, James has missed a fair number of games. Godfrey though has shown quality, commitment, and consistency.

Maybe I am slightly biased as I really knew very little about him beforehand so my expectations were lower than for say James but, regardless, he is my player of the season -- unless someone does something magical in the next 9 games.

Sorry that I may have come across as rude, I just can't hack people coming on here just to spout contrarian negative pish when the club is floating in a river (Blue) of positivity.

I can't add anything to that.

That's a damn good point. I'd forgotten about the pre-window days when we could sign Wayne Clarke in March to get us over the line, or the RS would sign the likes of David Speedie similarly late in the day. Managers no longer have that get out of jail free option.

Chelsea are 4 points clear of us and we've a game in hand. Just look at their subs bench tonight v Porto. I won't say anymore.

Although it does nark me, when you see other players shouting at the ref and getting decisions, it seems ok for other players to constantly go down, as soon as Richarlison goes down, we get nothing, because all the pundits say the same about Richarlison
, but you never see them berate the constant divers, in the penalty box, the pundits even encourage players to go down, if they feel a hand on their shoulder.

That is something that we as a football club have to deal with, we need to grow a pair, and challange these decisions or comments.

It does not matter what Everton achieve, there will always be a world wide media, that will either put it down to other teams not performing as well, that even now, they see us as no hopers for the top 4, that was before our game on Monday.

We can go on and get 4th place, we will not get any help, or credit, it will be down to empty stadiums, other teams having injuries, but they will not put it down to Everton.

If we are going to at least have a go, then as a club, we have to get tougher, do not sit back when we are well on top, keep at the opponents and try and put the game out of sight, most of all though, those players have to fight for their team mates, and have no passengers on the pitch.

We have posters with different opinions, we all bleed Blue, but we all want the same thing, a full blooded effort from the team, I can accept being outclassed on the pitch, what I cannot accept is defeat, before we have even kicked a ball, we need those players to believe in themselves and team mates, not be afraid to try something on the pitch, not be afraid to make a mistake trying something, but most of all getting stuck into the opponents, and not give them room to move or stroll through the motions.

Excellent post but you have to realise that the people you aim this at won't take a blind bit of notice of anything that contradicts their narrative. They are incapable of rational discussion – fact.

Woohoo! That's a load off.

Good job the ground is shut because the faithful would have roundly booed these pathetic home performances. The fella selling cushions would be the only happy person in the house.

No self-proclaimed positives at Goodison, they are a tough crowd. They happy clap for nobody.

Bayern Munich, just gone a goal down and with Everton now needing two to win, the manager said to his players, just keep doing what you’re doing and the Gwladys st will suck the ball into the back of the net - great management.

Liverpool, after being the much better team for a hour, we conceded two kick goals, and Kendall rashly brought off the culprit whose costly mistake had gifted them an equaliser, instead of remaining calm, knowing he had the better team?

John Keating, all good pubs you mention especially The Clock, great singers on there including Cy Tucker, happy days, but no stay behinds in The Clock.!!

Did you expect jam today?

We have more points now (with 9 games to play) than in five of the last seven seasons.

Big improvement... no?

To which you responded, of course, with more insults.

I do note you have emphasized again the complete unimportance of others' comments -- by citing the fancifully lighthearted Tinkerbell jest I made five years ago. I'm struck by the fact that you seem to have a memory like a heffalump for gibes you claim to ignore. But of course I will take you at your word that they don't matter to you... lest I be further portrayed as insultingly insulting your insults.

(Even though the phoneys in the media said Everton will probably do better without fans at Goodison?)

Our away form is brilliant though, but again with opposing fans backing the home team, I’m not sure Everton would have been so successful on the road?

It wasn't an insult. I just couldn't believe a grown man would come on a football website and talk about Tinkerbell... that's why I remember it so vividly. I found it even harder to believe you guys who were blasting the trumpets as Koeman and Walsh signed duff after duff.

I'm older and wiser now.

Tony

Fair enough we will never know if the games would have been different if there was a crowd in, but you have to accept that Goodison has been an angry place after performances that were nowhere near as bad as the ones we have witnessed in the past 15 months.

Did anyone else see Rodriguez roll his arms towards the Everton bench, a couple of minutes before he came off, and although Duncan Ferguson never gave him a bad look when he eventually got on the bench, I had a feeling that Duncan was possibly thinking, that we could have done with 90 minutes out of him, such was his influence on the game?

You could also say the same about James, now he had to be in the running for MOTM along with Colman but when you see the other team attacking in the middle of the park then go past him, you notice how poor he is, can’t even chase them, looks very old and he puts a strain on the other centre midfielders same as Gomes, now you can all tell me you come to see his class and passing ability and I’ll agree with every one of you but he is playing as a midfielder and he becomes a total liability in that part of his game, so how do you fit him in where he is less of an handicap.

But thanks for your reassurance that you haven't been insulting. Not sure how I could have misconstrued your amiability so badly.

But accusing me of being a grown man? That hurts.

We all have opinions, but I think they can certainly be morphed by what will transpire until the end of the season. For example Calvert-Lewin has 14 league goals, if he scores no more, then he will have been deemed a little bit of a let down. If he plays the next 9 games, scores 4 more goals, his ratio per game will be better than 2 in 1 - he will be applauded as a proficient striker. The margins are thin! I learnt that from Martinez!

Si Cooper - several comments.

I agree with a lot of what you have said, especially with regards to Gomes. I am not Gomes's biggest fan, even pre-injury, in terms of what he brings to the team. However, recently I have found myself reassessing him as he seems to spot a really good pass, is more mobile, commits less silly fouls and seems to want the ball and links up the play well. I don't think he is a major problem, at least not in the most recent half a dozen games or so. Playing him, Sigurdsson and James in the same team from the start though is not wise in my highly expert opinion!!!!!

As for the subs v Palace: Coleman had 3 games in 6 days for Ireland - he is an aging wingback, had a great game, but it was understandable that he was brought off. James, well he has just come back after many weeks out, is a bit fragile, massively important to Everton, and needs to be managed well within the game time. Sigurdsson was a forced substitution and he had stepped up to the plate a lot more in recent months. Davies was carrying a knock from the internationals by the looks of things, but because of injuries, he needed to play. Did Ancelotti get it wrong? Maybe. What were the options? King for James and a change of formation? Holgate to right back to cover Godfrey? Nkounkou for James, swap Richarlison to the other flank, move Digne into left mf? All required a lot of tactical re-tinkerinking. If re-tintkering isn't a word, well it should be with a photo of Ancelotti and Ranieri next to it in the dictionary.

The next 9 games will redefine people's opinion me thinks . but I could be wrong!

Play nice boys!

I like Carlo and boasting about his cv but if beyond the top 6 at season's end what non-emotive evidence is there to show progress?

Quite right.

With the obvious caveat it reflects a significantly improved league finish otherwise it would be just another anomaly in a season full of 'em.

Calvert-Lewin needs a few more because right now his goal per game ratio is behind lots of former Everton players from recent times, including:

Andy Johnson
Tomasz Radsinski
Brian McBride
Lacina Traore
Yakubu
Lukaku
Louis Saha
Wayne Clarke

I posted earlier. We have passed the total points gained in 5 of the last 7 seasons already. With 9 games of the season left.

Undeniable progress.

"usual whimpering cup exits" against who was that again? Shrewsbury? Norwich City reserves? No, it was against the two top teams in the country. It was also at the quarter final stage of both competitions, which for a team aspiring to be top 6 is where you'd expect Everton to get, assuming the top four make the final four.

I think Calvert-Lewin is the least of our worries overall he does just enough to warrant a spot and, as long as players about him are capable of playing him in, he will do ok without ever being top drawer. The issue is only James has that ability but unfortunately he has a body made of styrofoam.

The season hasn't ended so you cannot judge by our league position whether it an anomaly or not. Certainly not "undeniable progress".

Wasn't really the main point of my post Kieran. But Traore? didn't he play 1 game? Like Wakenshaw if my memory serves me right!

I am not defending Calvert-Lewin here, I was making a point in a whole different context to what you are I think; aren't you judging the above on their whole Everton careers, whilst Calvert-Lewin's is still in progress? Is what you are saying minutes or appearance based?

Clarke was excellent, saw him live a lot; he had some amazing supply lines. Yakubu, very very underrated striker that we bought at his peak and cost 13.5 million I think. Lukaku, one of the best strikers for poaching in the world.

Andy Johnson, Tomasz Radsinski, Brian McBride, didn't play a huge amount of games for Everton, and weren't some of them penalty takers?

Saha, he was excellent, but again, was not learning his craft when he came to Everton.

My point with using Calvert-Lewin was how opinions can change massively with just a few changes of luck/results either way. If he doesn't score another goal all season, but we win all the games and he plays a role ala Bent, then great.

It wasn't really my point Kieran.

The main weakness we have is still in midfield, despite Carlo addressing this last summer. In my opinion, we look like a decent team when we have Allan and Doucoure in midfield. Unfortunately for us, Allan missed a big chunk of the first half of the season, and Doucoure is now out in the back half of the season. While we are still playing the likes of Gomes, Sigurdsson and Bernard in midfield, we cannot expect top performances and dominating the games. These 3 have mastered the art of disappearing. We’ve also had Tom Davies in midfield, who has improved a lot in my opinion. He should be learning alongside Allan and Doucoure though, not being left trying to hold the hold midfield together alongside the invisible men.

Richarlison and DCL had off nights against Palace. They both should have scored at least 2. I don’t actually think Richarlison has had a very good season. We still need an experienced striker who the manager trusts to play when these 2 are not doing it.

The pleasing thing is the unity behind Carlo in the fan base. We can all see the job he has on his hands sorting out the midfield and attack. We still have to move on the likes of Besic and Tosun!

It’s clear there are players Carlo doesn’t trust. He has a core group of players he uses, and even some of them are sub standard. We have one of the biggest summers we’ve ever had coming up - the mad thing is that I have said that every year the last few years. But we still have a load of crap players earning top dollar on our books that we can’t shift. They are leaving bit by bit now. It’s important we recruit right. It’s no good Brands buying players that Carlo doesn’t want, which appears to be the case with Josh King.

I’m expecting us to buy a striker and at least 3 midfielders in the summer (including wide players). Maybe 2 midfielders if Gbamin can offer something, it’s far too early to judge him though.

I only hope the manager’s subs will improve with a better pool of players, as Carlo got the balance wrong with his subs the other night.

Even your reply backs up the "whimpering exit" theme. They are perceived to be better than us so it's expected (and therefore acceptable) that we fold.

That's Everton going back decades... ie "usual".

An increase in points total (with almost a quarter of a season to go) from five of the last seven seasons' finishing total, can not be seen as anything other than improving.

I was messing about and sneaking Traore on there to see if you noticed lol but I understood your post and you make a valid point.

Barry Rathbone

In that respect, any cup exit would be whimpering? If losing to the best two teams is whimpering where does that leave our exits against the likes of wonderful Wigan. And as for Man City being "perceived" to be better than us, do you have a different perception? To be clear, I didn't "expect" to lose, I thought it would be very difficult but I rationalized there were ways in which we might be able to win. We didn't. I am not happy about that outcome but I wouldn't say it was a whimpering exit. I'd say we lost despite our best efforts against a better side. The United game? Yeah that was more of a whimpering affair,

No worries!

Not really if the standards of some teams have declined and we're still at a steady level of mediocrity, we will pick up more points. The same explanation applies to a higher points total not resulting in a significantly higher finish as other clubs nail the dross as well.

You must see the possibility of not improving just because we have more points, yes?

Not so.

If we went out all guns blazing, we would not go out "whimpering". No one complains about Moyes's exit against Fiorentina.

We have no pace in the team, other than Godfrey and Calvert-Lewin, we have not one player who can run at defences, take people on, get round the back, create opportunities… we haven't (other than Rodriquez) got players who can work between the lines, can actually play one-touch football, can actually trap and move with the ball, can actually press non-stop.

We have defenders who can defend but can't pass the ball forward, who can't move the ball quickly without error, who can't cushion a header to a teammate. We have midfielders who turn like an oil tanker, who have to foul all the time to stop the opposition, who have no idea of finding space, who have no idea of joining in an attack, getting forward to support the attackers, and who think of actually getting past our attackers and getting into the box. In fact, we must be the slowest, most static, least producing football team, and most boring team to watch at the moment in the Top 10.

Yet we continually think we are one or two games away from a European place. It's a joke, a real joke.

My only major worry is why? – Is it due to poor buys over the years? Is it due to Ancelotti's poor tactics, team selections, or (to be fair) a complete lack of a competitive squad for him to manage? What's up with our training?

We can't press, players can't last games, we keep getting training injuries, we can't develop a team who can actually control a game. Instead, we defend and rely on counter-attack, set-pieces or opposition errors – as Hodgson said last night, Crystal Palace played the football.

If you recall, we've been totally outplayed by Fulham, West Ham, Burnley, Crystal Palace, Leeds, and even West Brom. Not to mention a roasting in passing from Man City and Chelsea.

Carlo, it's just not good enough; football-wise it's no better than we were under Allardyce and that's a disgrace. We were at home last night, 1-0 up and you take off an attacking wing-back in Coleman for a defender in Godfrey, you took off James and put on a defensive midfielder in Gbamin – where the hell was King? Push for the 2nd goal, not sit back and invite pressure on us.

It's long been an issue of our fans over egging the pud about how good our players are and as you rightly say we're mid table because mostly we have mid table players.

What you say is true but it's intangible. You can't prove teams have declined or improved relative to other seasons based purely on performance unless you can somehow stop a certain game at half time and transmat one team back in time to the same fixture the year before and vice versa with the other team then see how it plays out. Although even then it would be imprecise as factors like injuries picked up in the first half, weather conditions or the referee could influence the outcome. Therefore it's not something you can establish

I'm not saying it is true I was explaining to Thomas how it is possible to increase your points total but still remain in the same moribund position as before. Ergo his claim doesn't hold water (might do at the end of the season mind)

First time I've ever heard someone claim we went out with a whimper against Fiorentina

Massively repeating myself on this thread let alone for the last few weeks.

Totally agree with you, defence is not a priority in the summer in comparison to other positions.

But if there is truth and potential in the Koulibaly rumours, we totally have to go for that as it is a big upgrade even though the four centre backs we have are good.

We can and will do other business, but as satisfied as we are with our 4 CBs right now, they can be improved on and if we have a chance to do that we should in my opinion.

Let’s judge this Everton season on the football facts at the end of the season. Theres x9 games to go, any thing can happen, plenty to go for and in view the final league position, doesn’t lie.

Gonna be interesting, but this thread is just a warm up, it seems, for a blockbuster end of season thread.

May be the website gatekeepers can set a vote on a TW after the last league game to get TWrs feedback.

Now to beat Brighton.

You may be interested in looking at our finishing positions in the seasons I spoke about.

As a result of the performance in toto ie both games - the memory is not one of a cup exit at a whimper. Evertonians recall it with pride not something that can be said about this seasons usual capitulations.

I will of course, at the end of the season.

Pointless doing it now if we end up with a higher points total yet finish 11th. You do get that don't you?

Sorry, Tony appeared to be saying just that.

Sorry mate, but I don’t think Koulibaly should be in our sights. As good as he undoubtedly is, he would likely cost over £60 million and be earning £200k per week. That might be our whole transfer budget! If he was the final piece of the jigsaw, I could see it. But if we buy him, he’d probably be playing behind Iwobi, Gomes and Sigurdsson! His impact would be limited.

We are well stocked at centre back. Any money we have needs to be spent on a top CM, a right winger and an experienced striker in my opinion. A look at our subs bench shows that Carlo isn’t happy with our options in midfield and attack! He’s been naming 2 keepers. That can’t go on!

You must not be aware of my posting history condemning Moyes nontheless being objective I accept the complete tie is thought of as going out on our shields not a whimpering exit.

ps if you quote me again make sure you don't edit the quote to put up a fallacious argument

I thought Moyes built decent teams towards the end of his time at Goodison, but this was his best team imo, and they fucked the job in Italy, against a team that we were much better than.

You remember the second leg Barry, fine it was a great night, with one of its best atmosphere’s until Yakubu missed his penalty, but the first leg was an absolute disgrace, and I just thought I’d point that out for those who just remember the gallant losers

In the context of whimpering exits from cup ties it never occurred to me he would be commenting about effectively a part of the tie. Would anyone pile in on the Bayern game based on a part when we went one nil down? Of course not.

See my reply to Rob at 566

A Rangers team managed by that cowardly, negative, busted flush Walter Smith, to use someone's vernacular

No they don't - make sure you quote the entire piece next time the idea of not criticising Moyes compared to not criticising the exit are completely different things. Don't do it again

I didn’t pile in Barry, I just stated facts. Ask anyone who was at Fiorentina, do they think Everton lost the tie with a pathetic display in Italy, and I think the resounding answer would be without a fucking doubt

My issue is why you brought up part of a cup tie when the topic was going out of cup ties with a whimper - at that stage we weren't out!!

Moyses talked a good win, but never delivered when it really counted in Europe, in my view.

You may have a point but we had to "play" to deserve the accolades that followed. The entire point is we didn't go out of either cup under Carlo in that manner we "whimpered" as per,

I bumped into them in Barcelona the night after the game, and the little kid was looking at me like I was Jesus, and it’s that camaraderie that I think we are all missing right now!

I will pull you up every time you misquote and infer I have written something I haven't.

Because you "couldn't be arsed" is no excuse for misrepresentation nor did anyone tell you to be proud of getting beat that is another creation of your imagination.

City were too good but we walked onto the pitch with that attitude emblazoned on our mugs but at least you didn't try to defend the Utd surrenders

There is always going to be a minor grumble but just be happy the only negatives were the performance and the result.

Character and belief is needed now as the final phase of this season unravels.

I’m still optimistic as based on this seasons form, Everton can still pull the rabbit out of the hat, but it’s gonna be some ask, and we need some grit in midfield, and as many have stated.

Tom Davies must start but he needs some back up in terms of energy and movement, Monday night, Palace effectively had the freedom of the Bullens Road in the second half.

Brighton will have done their home work, but hopefully so have Everton.

Does any one know if Allan, will be available for Brighton?

Thank you.

Has he been transferred, Paul?!

Hopefully fit. He does make a difference.

It’s gone stum, and it would be good to know.

To be or not to be, but Everton, it’s time for the squad to galvanise and step up and believe.

Somebody said; good players have the odd average game - average players have the odd good game.

This odd good game is what kids people, its what they remember...then you add in the other side of an average, that average players will also have shight games as well

If anybody thinks that 'The Real Everton' will stand up (please stand up, please stand up) for the last 9 games, well good for them.

I hope they do too, my heart says so and I still get up at 3 in the morning to watch just in case...but my head - like the computer says...No - and I won't be troubling my online betting provider with as much as one penny just on the off chance either.

Come the end of the season, even if we stretch on tip toe, holding a broom, we won't be able brush the soles of the feet of 4th place.

We won't average the 2pts per game that might say - well even if it was too late, they gave it a 'go'.
We'll do well to break 60pts...and with our poor GD, even finish 7th.

A different somebody said - Show me a 'Gallant Loser' and I'll show you a loser.

And guess what, those expensive players we've signed have in almost every case evidently turned up at Finch Farm, seen what goes on there, scratched their heads in bewilderment, and almost immediately dismissed the thought of putting a shift in to actually try to achieve progress for their new club, very comfortable as they newly were, training-ground "injuries" being especially welcome to them.

Hardly anybody leaves us to obtain a better contract and there's no evidence to suggest they're wrong to leech onto us as they're best ever paying option for a "not-quite-winner" player. We now call them "dead-wood", amid a forest in my opinion.

My regret, needless to say, is that the canker of deadwood has been twenty/thirty years ago introduced into the very roots of our club courtesy of we-all-know-who. (Please, I'd just love someone to ask "who"?).

So, never mind the surgery Brands and Ancelotti have to try to achieve in the field of transfers right now. Maybe someone in the club, with an allegedly large financial investment up to now, should first try to exterminate the Japanese knot-weed that's killed us, and new signings, as potential winners for the duration of the Premier League.

Just saying - again.

You’re right. Just think of the money Schneiderlin was on before he retired to Nice, or Mirallas, even freaking back up CB Heitinga said he had to give up the private jet life after Everton.

UTFT!

“What’s Our Name?”

Link

Haha that was the best post on this thread mate

Barry R, seems like you want to eat your cake and still have it. You want sole rights to defining ‘whimpering’ and object to one leg of a cup tie being able to out weigh the other, when that is what you want for your point of view.

Sad as it is (if ya know yer history) 7th would be pretty good with this squad. Fourth is beyond us at this point. I think Moyes will nick it though I wouldn’t be hugely surprised if Chelsea fuck him over and do a Di Matteo by winning the CL. Either way, that leaves us looking at 6 and below which means us, the RS, Spurs, Villa and Arsenal battling for 6th through 10th. I’ll be upset if we end up below Villa or Arse (meaning 8th) but as muppets like Koeman and Sam got 8th I feel we need to go one better, so hopefully we can pip Jose or Jurgen and nick 7th. With that having been said. If you look at our subs bench of late: Broadhead, John, Tryer versus theirs eg Oxade, Firmino, Milner or Winks, Lucas, Bale we are the underdogs. So if we finish above either of those two (my least favorite teams) and nick 7th I’ll take it. Yes Moyes and Brenda outperformed to make us all look worst but shit happens.

From Martinez's 2nd season, the needle on the 'total gashness' guage... apart from the odd decent aberration... has been hard against the little peg that stops its going off the scale.

In fact, if you average out our final league positions since 1900 (which I did one day when bored shitless recovering from Illness), it comes to around 8th or 9th.

"You want sole rights to defining ‘whimpering' and object to one leg of a cup tie being able to outweigh the other."

The Fiorentina "cup tie" was the sum total of the 2 games and the general view is, over that sum total, we went out like lions. But, if you think we exited with a whimper, that is your prerogative.

I might add the critique of the Italian leg appears to be Moyes's tactics in going for it (what a mad idea – Moyes going for it!) – hardly a definition of a whimpering loss.

Minority views like yours are interesting for many reasons.

He can look pretty and does some decent passes but the unfortunate reality is he doesn't really offer much to a team trying to get to the top!

We don't go out of cup ties with a whimper – we just get beat.

Well, yes - we obviously get beat.

But surely you can discern going down fighting to going out in whimpering ignominy as per the Wigan qtr final for example.

Maybe you can't!!

How much proof can you offer that your view is the ‘general' one? If there is none, then it is just two competing opinions, but only one person seemed to think he was the only one qualified to judge the merits for both sides.

Bit like you assuming I have an ‘interesting' minority view when I haven't actually offered one. My post is about your ‘debating style' – not either of the competing opinions other people have expressed.

I enjoyed one thing about Everton's performance that night (even though we lost), and that was how focused the players actually looked for once. I'm sure Guardiola also mentioned that they could see how focused Everton were even during the warm-up, which usually means (Barry) he will come back with it being no good in the warm-up, and that's something I couldn't even argue back with!

When he was down on Monday, waiting for the substitution to be organised, did you notice how many of the senior players were interacting with him. Looks to me like he is treated as quite a central figure. They certainly weren't indifferent to him having to go off.

Debating styles differ on TW, that's what makes it the site it is. Some like to put their case mildly, some choose to put their case vigorously. All have the same weight.

The ones that seek, and get, attention are in the minority thankfully. Surely you can see that?

Yes, Gomes has played better in the last three or four games, no doubt about it for me, and he started well the other night. Good to see but, even when he plays well, there is still that defensive liability about him, sleeping on the ball. Even in close tackles, he doesn't go in with any aggression... maybe because of the serious injury he received v Spurs? Was he like this before the injury? I'm not sure, to be honest, but I do know he had as many good games as he has now: not many.

Yes, I noticed a few Everton players going over to him when he was injured. I thought it was out of concern because of his previous injury; was it in the same area? Overall I don't think Andre is the player who is going to make the midfield position his own, but I wouldn't mind being proved wrong there.

Si, I don't have any black book about Everton's history but I have a decent memory which helps sometimes.

You couldn't make it up if you were writing a comedy book.

This point you make about going down with a whimper. I think this happens only when players deliberately down tools, perhaps because of some politics with the management. Then they don't put their best effort in.

Apart from such situations, which I believe are rare, I've never discerned any Everton team going down with a whimper. I've seen many very bad performances, where the team just isn't gelling, and in such cases players just cannot get the overall machine running well – no matter how much effort is expended.

And then I've seen a lack of belief, because things are just not working. But to me, such things are not ‘going down with a whimper'.

I do think he is probably more highly regarded by the Everton hierarchy (and his teammates) than is generally perceived though. It may all hinge on who is available in the summer but, at the moment, I'd be very surprised if he were allowed to leave.

As for him being a defensive liability, I guess it really depends on how he is used and who else plays alongside him to make his necessary contribution negligible, and therefore less of a factor.

I suppose if you put people who like to debate, to hard work in a scrap yard factory, they might end up physically too tired to bother about trying to debate anything.

Just a light comment by me but a truly beautiful film, worth seeing.

I believe that Gomes is a very good player who works very hard and has many good skills. It looks as though he has a limit though and will never be able to play at the top level. Who knows though, played in the right position in our best side, he could be an asset. Possibly just too weak in the creating and scoring department? He seems to be a genuine likeable bloke though and he certainly does his best.

In terms of "proof", I doubt anyone would seriously contend the Fiorentina defeat was of the whimpering kind. Rob Haligan summarises the situation excellently.

"Barry, nobody is saying we went out against Fiorentina on a whimper. Moyes got his tactics horribly wrong in the away leg, that's all. He should have just settled for the 1-0 defeat."

So, unless you take issue with such thoughts, I have no idea why a "style" that is correct should raise your hackles. Quite an unusual philosophy to be honest.

Honestly, the answer might be none of them.

"This point you make about going down with a whimper. I think this happens only when players deliberately down tools."

I disagree; playing for Everton (well any togger team) should involve one basic ingredient beyond ability – determination. Competing at your very best every time you don the shirt should be a given; to not do so is "whimpering" in my book.

It happens too often at this club and not just against the perceived elite.

Just remember that the Everton players or team have ever deliberately done this is just your unsubstantiated opinion and patent nonsense. That you keep braying it so loud and long is unjustified.

So your book ain't a dictionary or an encyclopaedia then, Barry? No doubt it's some sort of mystical tome that only the ‘enlightened' are capable of comprehending.

Cant remember seeing that on a football pitch.
Anywhere.

Anyone have any detail on a supposed additional new Usmanov backed sponsorship deal I'm hearing about?

Regarding Gomes, let’s hope his injury isn’t a serious one because with injuries, especially in central midfield, he will be needed. By his liability I meant his lack of defending ability puts more onus on the other midfielders, more so when Allan and Doucoure are missing.

I’m not sure what’s questionable about Gomes lack of goals and assists. This is factual surely!

I want him to be a success as much as anyone but the facts are he’s not contributing much. That’s not just based on the facts that’s also based on me watching the games.

Still, 1 out of 11 is a pretty poor return which might explain why we're likely to finish below where the best Moyes and Martinez teams finished in the table.

Now the problem arises on players bought after their watch, players who have outstayed the previous 4 Managers, who are still here now, some out onloan, some still making the starting 11 or the bench, those on huge wages that we have to wait for their contracts wind down, before we can ship them out.

Best we can get is them going out each season on loan, to help with the wages.

Is anyone the least suprised when Tosun went out on loan to Turkey, they would actually stump up a minimal amount to sign him, when they know full well, Everton will loan him out again, then they get him for free next year.

It is not the huge amounts we wasted on the transfer fees, that is the problem, but the over inflated wages we put those players on, that we now struggle to sell.

Since Moshiri took over, let’s go back to the last 2 to 3 seasons, when was the last time we received decent money for a player leaving, or a half decent amount, or even any money at all for a sold player.

We have a strong 11 when all fully fit, couple of tweaks needed and additions added.

Once those injuries kick in, we are left with players who have been here over the last 4 Managers, those same players who have year after year,had no fight in their bellies.

Before we get rid of our next Manager, we need to have a damn good look at the squad, and start trimming and getting rid of those very players, that have been bought, and got 4 different Managers the sack.

Godfrey, Allan, Doucoure and possibly James, is a very good start to the new look Everton under our current Manager.

"Barry, your style is only ‘correct’ in your opinion"

Patently wrong we have identified my "style" (your word btw but more on that later) as equating the Fiorentina game to a "gallant" loss (h/t Tony Abrahams) and Rob Halligan has posted in agreement so irrefutably it is not just "my opinion".

Your diversion to "style" to try and explain your incorrect inference that memory of the Fiorentina cup tie does not come down to the sum of the 2 games has now been exposed by your emotive invective which is realyy the "style" you are blustering about. Bbut it does bring us nicely back to my original post.

" if beyond the top 6 at season's end what non-emotive evidence is there to show progress?"

3? I’m guessing Nyarko, Lescott v Arsenal and Schneiderlin has to be in there

Anything we can do to get more sponsorship in will help our no doubt awful FFP position. Can't imagine this will be a groundbreaking amount of money though. They had a few advertising boards around the ground on Monday I think.

Alex Nyarko is right at the top of the list for Everton and there is no way the team as a whole was giving it their max for Marco Silva at the end of his time in charge.

There are many reasons that a player's effort can be perceived as not trying. Looks lethargic = fitness?. A yard off = fitness, something else going on in the background?. Chasing shadows = the opposition player is really annoyingly fucking good?

Also, you have to account for what most of us have encountered as players ourselves. Sometimes, you go on with a perfect attitude. Mentally you try as hard as you possibly can but the reality is, on that day, you've put your left boot on your right foot and vice versa, and simply had a stinker to get hooked at half time. 30 minutes in my experience and at Army standard football. Not my greatest moment.

Either way I often think we sometimes confuse effort with either having an off day or being outplayed. As frustrating as it is, it happens.

Thanks Dan & 642. Might be small fry, but more Usmanov financial involvement in Everton.

Personally though, I can't imagine that a team who has the chance to win a trophy and medal would throw a match just to get rid of a manager. Especially one they'd won the league with.

Then again, I guess I never played that standard and the modern game may have sinister aspects to it like that??

When Howie's team were beaten by the shite in the league final it didn't diminish the notion the team was on the verge of something or identified them as failures. Anyone who understood footy could see they were on the threshold of greatness whatever the league position or points total said, So in that regard I agree league position etc is not the only metric.

But nothing near that exists today and unless we go on a fabulous run to the end of the season that's how it will remain.

We can still exceed recent points totals or final league positions it just means evaluation of whether it represents real progress rather than a flash in the pan needs greater thought. Stats in isolation and putting on a "positivity" hat don't cut it.

Barry; at the time of the 1984 Milk Cup final, Howard Kendall was almost 3 years into his reign and at the end of his 3rd full season. Not 15 months in.

What went before that 3rd season when we genuinely started to see the shoots of potential was dire beyond belief. December 1983 (2 years in) was a dark moment.

Best Wishes

Quite so - a realism hat is my chapeau of choice

Best wishes to you as well

Rather than rewrite what I've already said I suggest you look at my fantastic reasoning on this topic earlier. Enjoy

"So in that regard I agree league position etc is not the only metric."

You fought tooth and nail last night saying the exact opposite

You are confused again

Forget what Brucie told you they do not mean prizes. Our highest ever premier league finish saw us accumulate 61 points.

Its far better to get 61 points and fourth place in a competitive league than 65 in a shite season and finish out with the washing.

Darren 664 summarises it much better than I could the key being comparison of competitive and shite seasons - marvellous

Am I correct in thinking you now agree there's more to it than points and league position

Where you finish is what counts. Points contribute to that, but when you look back on history, be that recent or with nostalgia, it's where you finish that matters.

It's like winning 1 - 0 or 5 - 0, you'd rather do the latter, but you'd take the former as long as you win.

If league position is "not the only metric"
What further method to judge progress would you consider fair?

Okay, fine. Just lay out specifically in the order you find important all of the proposed metrics. League position, points, goal differential, whether we beat the Red Shite, and so on. Just lay it out man, we are willing to go through it to give a fair look.

Martinez?
72 points?

You forgot about the 72 points season didnt you

" Our highest ever premier league finish saw us accumulate 61 points."

No it didnt

A distinct advantage in these little debates

Cheers Rob

This is a footy forum... Alls fair

I guess what we are all saying is that ideally we all want to be entertained and see us amass as many points as possible.

No brainer and stating the blindingly obvious from O'Neill.

The reality; final position matters most each season. This season will bear testimony to that as much as when we finished 4th. Let's face it, that season's 4th was down to Liverpool continuously cocking up as much as it was down to a barnstorming Everton finish as I recall it. We stumbled over that line due to favourable results elsewhere. Hopefully we get similar favour this season although realistically it will be Europa.

On the phone, please excuse!!

For me, the Martinez team was better.

Martinez team by a country mile.

If he had the money to properly replace Moyes aging foot sloggers we would have rose to a level the Moyes method could never facilitate.

Moyes would have spent a similar bounty on Phil Neville variants whereas Martinez was on the threshold of something beyond containment and the likes of Rom and Stones might of stayed.

Ah well!!

Unfortunately Moyes did his "thing" of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory changing the team at lower division Leeds in a cup tie with predictable results.

It broke the spell - Jelavic turned to mush and we never recovered. What a balloon Moyes was.

Let down after let down really. Gary Neville is currently doing a 15 minute Q&A on twitter and was asked where Everton will finish? His reply was I’ve stopped taking any notice! Every time there’s a chance for them they bottle it!

Just got once wouldn’t it be nice if we could get on a run and prove them all wrong. We deserve it surely

Looking at your team, some good players on there, but even then other teams had more goals unfortunately. Duncan Ferguson let us down in many ways and unfortunately Gary Speed who could certainly chip in with plenty of goals was as we all know sold.

Everton like Gary Neville hints at are always the Bridesmaid, and never the bride.

Even Moshiri’s investment to date is enough only to tread water or occasionally qualify for Europe, and we need a major injection from the likes of Usmanov. Perhaps that will come.

In the meantime, given what we have, the discussions on this thread about progress and Ancelotti are like rearranging the deck chairs on an old ship that needs major refits or replacement by a design that accords with modern standards.

2008 was the big chance and we thoroughly blew it away in Florence against a very average Fiorentina side that Rangers would later put to the sword. That pathway would’ve led us to Zenit in the final who we had already beaten that season. Although given Moyes lack of appetite for a big game away from Goodison I think we’d have probably lost it.

The ingredients were available to Moyes in 2007/2008 but he couldn’t quite put them together.

He insisted on playing Lescott as left back for large parts of that season and Yobo and Stubbs featured with regularity at centre back. It took him until the following year to really introduce Baines and discover the Jags and Lescott centre back pairing. Jags featured in various positions throughout 2007/2008 including defensive midfield and right back.

The UEFA cup was the big opportunity and they blew it with a woefully negative performance in Florence. Our worst of the season. Then with nothing to lose at Goodison we came close to getting through. Moyes got us there, but he also stopped us getting any further in my opinion.

It suits him and his managerial style to be the underdog

Very magnanimous of you.
You had an open goal there but refused to take it. 👍