Moyes: The Full Story

Wish he stayed at Preston and we embraced being a big club instead of brow beating a generation of blues that we are plucky and make up the numbers...

I never forgave him after his infamous “knife to a gunfight” remark. Never had a winning mentality and he must still worship before an effigy of Billy Liar for letting him steal a living off Everton for years...the two of them convincing the gullible that they were the best we could hope for.

Not going to read his article as it's minutes of my life I'll never get back, reading his warped version of a career in which he's won fuck all and never will.

Never before has one man been so lucky to be at Everton for so long without a sniff of a big win and supported by an equally second-rate owner. He sowed the seeds for the 'also-ran' tag we have now by lowering the expectations of where Everton should be.

Brian@1 if he'd stayed at Preston there is every chance we'd be in the Championship now. Or at least have been down there or worse for a period.

When Moyes arrived we had a really poor team that was on the older side and not getting any better. We'd finished 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th and 17th (not in that order) in the previous 5 years.

I remember it well because it is when I started supporting Everton. Somehow. It was pretty grim.

Then Moyes came and over the next 7 seasons we finished 7th, 17th, 4th, 11th, 6th, 5th, 5th.

He significantly improved us both in terms of playing talent and league finishes. Yes he stayed too long, yes he said some silly things and yes he failed to win a trophy in a decade but he still remains the only Everton manager in my (short) time as supporter who has undoubtedly left the club in a better state than when he arrived with the possible and controversial exception of Sam Allardyce whose time here was short and functional.

Moyes worked hard for Everton and improved us markedly. I'd take that combination from any manager right now and think it's a shame that the manner of his departure saw so many hold him in contempt.

Just always bottled it when it came to crunch time. I'm not going to mention any of the pastings we received in the Premier League, lower league opposition in cups, and the Europa League. But the final straw was the FA Cup semi-final vs Liverpool and he tried to sit on a 1- 0 lead, and we all remember the outcome. His record v Liverpool over 11 years was shameful.

I also wish he stayed at Preston; we don't know for sure what would have happened, but the cringeworthy relationship with Kenwright wouldn't have dragged on for years and been so embarrassing for Everton FC's image.

He started with Walter's team and the golden inheritance of Rooney and reached 7th in the league.

A decade later amassing his own players including several club record buys his average league finish was nearer 8th.

Not a sniff of silverware, a reputation for choking big games, and safety-first football combined with a truly horrendous record at the Sky 4 grounds earned him multi-millionaire status!!

More bizarre was the spectacle of allowing him to work his notice with an ovation at Goodison Park to confirm just how far we had fallen behind Man Utd et al.

Never thought I'd see the day mediocrity became an accepted part of this club.

But Barry, we fell behind United and the others a long time before Moyes.

In the decade before he arrived our average league finish must have been around 14th or 15th.

Moyes began to bridge that gap. He's one of the only mangers we've had over the last 20 years who has done. And he did so with relatively meagre backing from the chairman.

The reason he was kept on so long was that the chairman was delighted to have a manager who would keep us in or around the European places on a mid-table budget and having inherited a relegation bound team.

He definitely stayed too long. If he'd been hit by a bus after the 2008-2009 season (when he surely had a "sniff of silverware" by making a final?) then he'd be remembered more fondly by most evertonians.

His era may not have been a glorious one but he improved us and laid the foundation for an assault on the top 4 that was sadly wasted by his successors once financial backing belatedly arrived.

He got 11 years and yet some people think 11 months is already to long for Carlo Ancellotti

When he was at Preston he had a good attacking side with free scoring Healey and Macken and I thought we were in for more of the same.

You knew if Everton scored in the first minute it was another 89 of trying to hold on to the 1-0 with Moyes a complete about turn from PNE.

Tony, that's the futility of modern football. What some fans are advocating would see a managerial change every season.

Give the manager 2 years to build; if there is no progress after that period, then look at his position.

Moyes did his job as Sam says but stayed too long. Think Nigel Pearson at Leicester— you’ve reached your glass ceiling, thank you very much but someone else will take us to the next level. That’s what should have happened

I have watched every Everton team including the one managed by Ian Buchan and in all that time we have had 3 managers that have won a trophy. We have now become a revolving door for managers, and all walked away with considerably more money in their bank than when they started. Our managerial appointments under Moshiri have been terrible, and non won anything and didnt look like winning anything. In fact quite the opposite most had us flirting with relegation, so much for taking due diligence before appointing managers. I know many of our fans like me still talk as if we are a big club, but big clubs win trophies we don't. I don't think many fans of other clubs think we are a big club any more. Our record over the last 10 years against the top 6 clubs is abysmal.

Regarding Moyes I thought he was OK given the tiny amount he had to spend, and lets not forget he raised a lot of the money he spent by buying good players cheaply and selling them for 3 or 4 times what we paid. I know many were upset in the way he left, but I don't believe that he didnt have conversations with Kenwright when Ferguson approached him to take over at Utd. I think the main point in Moyes article was if you want success you need to give managers time, just as Utd gave Ferguson 6 years before he won a trophy, if he had worked under this board he would have been sacked after 3 years tops. Same with Kendall he would have been sacked if this board had been in charge back then.

Moyes, should get a better hearing than many give him. A very decent manager, his 2008 vintage were a very pretty team, as was his 2013 crop, easy on the eye. His team building on a relative pittance is worthy of note, he brought several players who I remember very fondly of; Distin, Baines, Arteta, Fellaini Yakubu & Cahill. His teams labored sometimes but did have the knack of going right to the end, often we can recall a last minute winner under Moyes.

Many still have too much of a ‘one-eyed’ view of Moyes, linking his tenure to the golden years when he did repair a club on its knees. That Walter Smith side was not just vintage it was special reserve!

His ‘Achilles’ was the lack of killer instinct. Too often his team were in better form or simply better than more illustrious opponents but he deferred, paid too much respect, a characteristic he’s really never lost. Even last Saturday his West ham side dominated a poor United, then sat on his lead. His record away from home was very poor, again a construct of his conservatism rather than a team which lacked the ability. Perennial loses at places like Fulham, & Southampton hampered us time and again, let’s face it did our collective heads in!

He rightly deserves criticism for the way his side’s performed in the cups. I can only remember a meak league cup semi exit to Chelsea ‘08 (I was right in front of Lescott being out jumped by Wright-Philips in the home end 😵 pretty scary stuff at the bridge). Then was the Final in ‘09 and the semi in ‘12. That’s a poor record. Let’s not go down who we got knocked out by!!

On balance he took us from a relegation threatened outfit to the cusp of something better, I only have to remember ‘95 & ‘98 to realize he did, on balance, he did a decent job.

He deffo carved a niche at Everton and couldn’t go further than

Moyes set the standards for Everton FC in the modern era, it's just a pity that Everton FC in the previous century had set those standards way higher, it's also a crying shame that nobody apart from Martinez (first season version)has tried to lift those standards back to where they used to be, it's now up to Ancelotti to try and lift those standards to at least Moyes' levels and hopefully a lot better.

Sam

For some, it's taken as an insult to say the Moyes evaluation is very much a generational thing but it shouldn't be because on the whole, that's what it boils down to

Those old enough to have seen trophies arrive are aghast at the sight of this once-mighty club accepting the mantle of a 1980s Coventry existing in the top flight but offering absolutely nothing beyond. But it is what it is; some reference the turmoil of the Johnson/Walter years as a justification of the Moyes/Kenwright decade but others with a different reference level - Sir John Moores, Kendal - don't.

Kenwright supported Moyes and Moyes supported Kenwright the pair of them come out of the stagnation era with massively enlarged bank balances they are the only winners from that moribund decade.

Their legacy of mediocrity envelopes this club still

Some harsh words on here regarding Moyes. Only Everton could have been that unlucky to lose 3 key players for the 2009 FA Cup Final in Jagielka, Arteta and Yakubu. Who knows what might have been.

Let's not forget ,he was hung out to dry by the board for 2½ transfer windows and had to go trawling the back of beyond for a striker (Stracqualursi) to even keep us punching. Imagine what he'd have done with just a fraction of the money Koeman and Silva squandered. To be fair, he had an eye for a player. My only gripe with him was he was petrified against the top sides away from home.

Yes, outstayed his welcome but not the disaster some are making him out to be.

Barry, that makes sense in terms of expectations I suppose. But it was 15 years before Moyes arrived that we were winning trophies regularly. And even then it was only about 3-4 years when we we were really good. He walked into a very different club to that which you fondly remember surely?

I think stagnation is not the fairest way to describe Moyes' era as a whole. Certainly it felt like that by the end but overall we went from an average finish of 15th in the decade proceeding him, to an average finish of 8th under his stewardship, and with little funding.

Whilst 8th is nothing to celebrate you can't deny that we did improve. Moving a team regularly up 7 places in the top league is more than stagnation I'd argue. If the next managers after Moyes had achieved that then we'd be regularly winning the league and competing in the Champions league.

Yes we'd all like trophies. Of course. And that's a mark against him. But surely after almost a decade now where no manager has actually improved us you can find some nugget of regard for a man who undeniably did?

Moyes had one real skill - finding players. Most, but not all, were good buys. Some superb buys for the money

But he was guilty of that managerial disease of 1) playing them out of position 2) not really trusting youth 3) being far too negative when opposition was there for the taking eg Liverpool semi final and Chelsea final 4) being satisfied with victories against lesser sides 5) conservative tactics in most games.

So all in all he's be a fabulous chief scout

I totally agree with Sam,
Moyes was a revelation to the club and often referred to as Moyesiah. He built up comraderie and team spirit at every level including the tea ladies. The fact that he achieved all this with an average spend of around 1 million per season.

The fitness coaches and backroom staff were first class too which Martinez dismantled in record time, hence the collapse of his regime.

The only problem was the manner of his leaving and the disrespect he showed the club that had looked after him for 11 years.

Don't entirely agree with your observation about the generational thing Barry. I'm old enough to have experienced the glory days but have to say I was relieved to see Moyes arrive as prior to that we were going down the pan (no pun intended).
As has been said by Kieran and others, he stayed too long. I'm not overly critical of Blue Bill as some of you will know but for me his biggest failing was getting too emotionally involved with Dour Davey instead of planning years before the Man U debacle to shunt him in favour of a more visionary and bolder coach.

Who was it on here who used to do the send up 'playlets' of the Moyes family at home some years ago. I remember they were very funny. Eugene or John maybe?

I thought Moyes did a great job and built some decent teams that were maybe a couple of players short of winning trophies. I was bored watching his teams by the end of his tenure, mainly because he was – as others have said – very conservative in his approach and didn't really seem to believe we could win anything.

But with Baines, Pienaar, Arteta and Osman playing those lovely little School of Science passing games, and Cahill giving it 100% for 90 minutes, we were a better team than we are right now, no matter how much money has been spunked on over-rated, over-paid, over-priced mercenaries. Stick the 2020 version of Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison in one of Moyes's teams and we'd probably win something.

I didn't like the way he was courted by Old Whisky Nose and his attempt to come back and take Baines and Fellaini. However he, for the most part made people take us seriously and let's be honest under Walter Smith or Mike Walker, we were a joke.

Moyes eventually ran out of rope. The board would not/could not back him so that he could get the players he wanted, and for a while, he held off contract talks, which pressured them to consider opening the coffers. They had let him down time and again. He did very well considering his resources. He had his imperfections but he never did get the backing he needed to take us through that glass ceiling.

Imagine if he had got the backing that Silva and Koeman got?

Hope he doesn't get more out of his team than Carlo gets out of his this season. It would be too embarrassing to finish below a West Ham led by Davey Moyes.

Darren, there’s mitigating circumstances, you are forgetting about he transition period we are currently undergoing. The transition period we have just come out of before this transition period started and the subsequent transition period if Carlo leaves prematurely that the next manager deserves by right.

Sam,

The trauma of relegation scraps resulted in an unwritten contract between the fans and whoever succeeded Walter along the lines of "Save us by whatever means necessary, forget the holy trinity, Dixie, Howie's boys, trophies etc, just save us!!"

The trouble was many of us saw this as a temporary condition not a long term philosophy were surrenders became a part of the club psyche and defeats at certain places were expected along with failures in crucial games. Instead of pride, we had excuses – millions of them – for over a decade.

Someone once commented that the European experiences wounded Moyes so badly he lost his nerve and I agree. But circumstances here were so unique that he had a job for life so he just hung around biding his time for a "big job".

His Everton was/is not my Everton.

Moyes is a born loser, liar and back-stabber.

I'll never forget that Chelsea semi in the league cup, think we lost 2-1 at The Bridge and when Chelsea came to Goodison he went 5-4-1.

We lost the game 1-0 to Joe Cole goal.

He has a loser's mentality, could not lie straight in bed and is a self-serving egotistical cunt.

That quote, when asked by a reporter when he took the United job, summed him up.

Reporter: "What does it mean to you to have the United job?"

Moyes: "It means I can finally go out and try to win games."

Despicable man.

I remember being told after the Wigan FA Cup game, which Wigan won 3-0, that Moyes had informed the squad prior to the game that he had accepted the Man Utd job. Don't know how true this was, but it could explain the utter garbage performance from the team in the first half when it was 3-0 at half time.

His mouth did a funny little wobble when he said ‘the United job came completely out of the blue’.

The things I remember about Moyes are negative. "Knife to a gunfight" as has already been said.

Going to Bucharest to watch complete capitulation to a 3rd division European side.

Losing 7-0 at Arsenal on the last day of the season.

Losing 6-1 at home to Arsenal on the first day of the season.

There is no way he would have won things with Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison, because he wouldn't have had the guts to play them.

Probably 8/10 of my worst EFC moments of all time (well, since 1959) came under Moyes's stewardship.

Don't even get me started on his relationship with Buffalo Bill.

Every manager makes mistakes in terms of recruitment, selection, team formation, tactics, comments to the media etc. What I hope for is that over time any manager of our club gets more things right than wrong, improves the position of the club and leaves it in a better state than when he arrived.

Apart from Allardyce, of all the managers appointed over the past 30 years, only Moyes has achieved that. The rest have failed, most of them miserably.

Moyes; A curates egg of a manager – good in parts. He coulda been a contender, but just lacked... well I'm not sure, but he lacked it.

With West Ham, he's back where he should be, at the Everton of London surrounded by 3 bigger teams. Doing just what he did with us, picking up a few gems... and a few duds, winning some games, bottling some.

If the dildo bros have any sense, they'll stick with him and, just like with Bill, be happy keeping on the Premier League gravy train, top half finishes, the odd cup run and the jobs a goodun for as long as they can both stand each other.

He seems to have his mojo back... it's not heap big Ju-Ju, but it's all his.

Eddie @22,

I was going to write something similar but I can only agree with everything you have put. Everytime we looked like taking the next step, we had season after season of players being sold.

The knife to a gunfight, the semi-final we bottled and his departure, how he went about it, then trying to buy two of our players on the cheap, are low points for me. The high point taking over from a team struggling and bringing stability to the club, coping with the "sell before you buy", season after season, never able to build a strong 11 and keep them there. We could not compete with the big boys, but we certainly did not take many beatings by the lower teams in the Premier League, we were never blowing out of our backside after 70 minutes, him and his coaching staff had the team fit and playing for 90 minutes.

So there are good and bad points in regards to Moyes, Moshiri and his money came about 7 years too late for Moyes to be able not just to buy players, but keep hold of them as well, and build a team that could compete.

To early to include Carlo but none of the other managers since have come close to building or assembling a team closest to Moyes teams, and Moyes doing it roughly on incomings and outcomings of around £1 Million a season.

If Moyes had left at the end of the 2008-09 season, he would have a good reputation with the fans. The last four years at the club, it was clear he felt that he had outgrown Everton. How wrong he was, given what happened subsequently.

Patrick and Barry offer the best judgements here – Moyes's Everton was not and is not in keeping with the long-standing traditions of the club.

Unfortunately, in the media era, Moyes's Everton is how we are perceived. I find that his lack of scrutiny or overview by the directorate, his narrative about the club (mostly self-serving), and then his long exit, a very frustrating period and one we are still struggling to overcome despite greater money.

Those who suggest he would have built a better footballing team capable of winning if he had received greater resources are offering pure conjecture – there is no evidence he would ever have been anything other than what he turned out to be. I remain of the view he was one of the luckiest ever Everton managers to be in post so long with no real pressure from above.

Never a trophy-winning manager but he was and still is a pretty good motivator and always seems to get his teams finely tuned in organisation.

We are somewhat clouded in our judgement of what defines us now as a big club. When Moyes took over, the previous 12 years (Big Joe's short tenure aside) had been a disaster at Everton, the club would surely have continued to flirt with relegation if we hadn't acted to appoint Moyes when we did.

I'll give Moyes credit, he assembled a really good squad at this club between 2006 and 2009; we came close to ending that trophy drought, we will never know how we would have fared in the Cup Final if we had Jagielka, Arteta and Yakubu.

I think as it was, by 2013 we had both exhausted each other. Everton needed a new direction and it became clear that Moyes needed a change.

The two things that I always take when I look back at this though are: firstly, no manager since Moyes has had his crop of Everton players anywhere near match fit. Moyes had that team of 2002 running through brick walls within 6 months, it goes to show it doesn't take years to get a bunch of players fit.

Secondly, I think Martinez was a victim of Moyes's 11 years here, the fans should have been more patient and seen what may have happened with Moshiri's million's (couldn't have been any worse than the Koeman era).

It pisses me off to hear we are currently in transition, we have been in transition for decades and nothing changes.

Ancelotti has a better squad at his disposal now with so many international players but still they can't run, look knackered and don't have a pattern.

It concerns me the way I see this club heading.

Jim, agree with all of that. Unfortunately we'll probably continue to be in transition until we have at least as big a budget as those at the top.

A week after that Wigan game, Everton beat Man City, at Goodison, which put Man Utd in the driving seat to win the Premier League, Rob H.

I was sickened by the marriage of Kenwright and Moyes by this stage, and made a personal vow never to go back to Goodison whilst these two phonies continued to piss in each other's pockets at the expense of plucky little Everton.

I never went the match. I went to work instead and, looking back, listening to the Moyes interview after the Man City game, it was obvious he knew he was getting the Man Utd job, once "Sir Alex" (Moyes's words🤮) had finished his time with another title for Man Utd.

I remember listening to the interview thinking, "Man City are only 3 points, Wigan was a chance to win something..." and this is why I think Moyes is a phoney.

He will do a good job at West Ham, who have similar fans to Evertonians in many ways. The biggest difference being the Hammers' trophy haul, which will suit “dumb it down" Davie right down to the ground.

A loser.

A manager scared to turn a draw into a victory in case by doing so he risked a defeat.

Apathetic in his disdain for the fans. Held us in utter contempt after he left.

Thomas @38,

I suppose many of our managers in recent years fall into the same category really of being too scared of turning a draw into a victory; even Carlo has fallen into that trap a few times in recent weeks.

The only guy with the bollox to be bold was Martinez, who at least tried to go toe to toe with the big boys.

My summary of the Moyes era runs along the lines of previous managers were engaged to win things and adhere to old Everton principles and it killed most of them. Moyes was the first manager in our history not burdened by such a remit and it was an unequalled gift in football for any manager desiring charge of a "big club".

Moyes was a very lucky man arriving here under the unique stewardship of Kenwright but, once returned to real-world conditions beyond Goodison Park, he failed at every level – from Champions to relegation fodder and all points in between.

Jim,

I don't consider any of our managers to have the same inherent fear as Moyes. He was terrified to open up in case he left the side open to counter-attacks.

Nothing personal against him, just a disregard for his managerial capability.

As someone whose forenames are Richard Thomas, I must agree with Thomas Richards in his assessment of Moyes.

One game summed it all up for me: that Liverpool semi-final. We went one-nil up, quite early in the game, and Moyes instantly shut up shop.

Eventually we lost because of fear, the fear of a manager who saw every match as an opportunity to keep the point we started with.

I think the Moyes era (and even our present predicament) is judged differently by those who can remember the highs of the 80s and those who cannot.

I'm in the latter category. Consequently, I see the Moyes era as our salvation from inevitable relegation, a restoration of some pride, and the assembly of a very good team. Flawed, frustrating and desperately dreary at times – but still miles ahead of what preceded it (and on a pathetic budget).

Today, we are a very run-of-the-mill mid-table club with a mid-table squad – a deterioration from where Moyes left us despite all the money spent. But he's viewed as a failure by some simply because he never hit the heights of the 80s.

And I suspect the same sort of nostalgia is why many don't like a Dortmund / Leipzig approach to recruitment. It's kind of on the basis that we shouldn't scrap around for kids because we're a big club and should buy the ready-made best. Trouble is, the outside world really doesn't view us as a big club and hasn't done for 30-odd years. So the ready made best aren't interested, even if we can afford it.

Ancelotti and Rodriguez give us a bit of glamour but we need a new stadium and a new squad before we look anything like a big club again. With a bit of luck, Ancelloti is building for now, Brands is building for the future... and Moshiri is building a stadium.

Robert,

You are right about what's needed at this club.

We need a complete shift in our mentality too. Too often, the hierarchy at Everton don't do its image any good as portraying a big club.

Look at Spurs, a club that's gone years and years without what we class as a major trophy, a club we were regularly finishing head and shoulders above up until 6 years ago but, in the space of no time, they have elevated their status and used the media to their advantage.

Hear Mourinho talk and he sees Tottenham's ambition as a level above Arsenal; it hasn't taken them long to displace Arsenal from that North London throne.

But, despite us here at Everton spending bucket loads of cash over the last 4 years, we still haven't set the bar high enough. The manager, even though he's won everything there is, is also falling victim of the small mindset.

Until we start making public in the hierarchy that 4 years on our project hasn't reached anywhere near the targets so far, make people aware nationwide of where we want to be, then the standards will always be too low here.

Too right, Jim. Spurs have handled things astutely despite some wobbles. They have been helped by the fact that Arsenal have deteriorated since even the lows of the Wenger era. Arteta, despite his talent and despite a good squad, is by no means finding management easy.

We are hindered by the general public / media adulation of our neighbours and their present (hopefully temporary) elevated position. The stadium, I am sorry to say, is a pile of shit too. Really awful in modern terms.

I have said before, I don't think Moshiri is remotely interested in bankrolling a push for top 6. He's just spending enough to keep us there or thereabouts with some high-profile names until the stadium is built. That's Ancelotti's job.

Robert (43),

I think you're pushing it a bit with your view that we've not been viewed as a 'big club' for over 30 years. How then did we get into the 5 club cabal that led the establishing of the Premier League in 1992?

And didn't we win the FA Cup a couple of years later (when it was still a major trophy), so helping to sustain our status for much of the 90s?

I'm not saying Moyes was amazing. But having him as manager sure was better than the crap we have had since he left.

Robert, the outside world do not see us as a big club because of Moyes. Prior to him, we were viewed as a slumbering giant but his 11 years of mediocrity in every respect, fuelled by Kenwright's tears, have made a whole generation see us as somehow punching above ourselves if we are in the top half of the table.

Believe me, to those of us used to better fodder, it is sickening given our emotional investment in all things blue.

Moyes gets 'a bad press' on here which Ancelotti will be spared because of his record of success elsewhere in years gone by. The time to judge the two at Everton will never be appropriate because the Italian will be lucky to get the 3 years he's signed to, let alone 11!

Steve & Ken – that's kind of my point. You guys can obviously remember better.

Despite being 40+, I'm too young to really remember Everton BC (Before Cottee). Okay, I might be out by a few years but 1992 is still 28 or 29 years ago. The FA Cup win was 1995. During all my time as a fan, we really haven't been treated as a big club – more a hanger-on. That's especially the case because of the love-in for our neighbours but also because the media treat football as though it began in 1992.

Despite being a founder member, Everton have never been part of the Premier League elite. We chucked a bit of money about to little effect under Peter Johnson and have been seriously skint till Moshiri turned up a few years ago.

The Moyes era made mediocrity into the new success. But I don't blame Moyes for that, I thank him for saving us from the obscurity that has been the fate of Sheffield Wednesday or Nottingham Forest. We were totally heading that way when he arrived. Without him we might still be there now.

I do appreciate however that view is nigh on sacrilegious to those with longer memories.

Moyes will never be a favourite due to how he left and comments after he left. However, it shouldn't be forgotten just how bad we were before he arrived. Every single year, it seemed we were fighting relegation.

Some people forget how good his side was that he built around 2007 to 2009. That side was more than capable of winning a trophy but, as others have said, caution got in the way of actually winning something.

It still irritates me the first leg of Europa League against Fiorentina where we meekly surrendered and subsequently lost 2-0. The return leg, we absolutely battered them, we just couldn't get that third goal. We should have won that trophy.

Moyes should have gone after the Chelsea FA Cup Final. Defending for 89 mins in a final for a club like ours was shocking. I know we had injuries but it was a final, for crying out loud. Was there to be won.

If Moyes just showed a little bit more ambition, then we would have won something. He definitely moulded some cracking teams and at Goodison, he let them loose and we had some great wins against top sides. It was away from Goodison that was the problem.

Moyes certainly left us in far better shape than when he joined us. He made us competitive and gave us a sense of identity which subsequent managers, including people's misguided nostalgia of Martinez, managed to destroy. In fact, Martinez started the rot and you do have to wonder (those that suggest we got rid of Martinez too soon) what football they were watching when we were floundering and without any heart at the end of Martinez's reign.

He was out of his depth at Everton. Wanted to play like Barcelona without putting in the hard yards. Seemed to think the ball would magically appear at your feet to play pretty football. There was only one way we were going with him and that was relegation.

I blame Kenwright for sticking with Moyes so long. No ambition... and then he hired Martinez as he was cheap. Now, we are paying the price for not getting in a top manager when Moyes left. Plenty would have come at the time.

Still, it shouldn't detract that Moyes moved us forward when we were an absolute joke of a club. As Roy Keane used to say before Moyes arrived, "Everton was just a place to go to pick up 3 points"; that changed with Moyes.

Love him or hate him, he turned the club around from being a shambles to one that could compete at last. Just didn't have the bollocks or belief to back himself or his team. We were definitely good enough.

Moyes was a miserable bastard... but that semi-final?

Silvan Distin gave the shite a foothold in a game in which they didn't look capable of creating their own chances. As howling back passes go, Silvan's was right up there.

As was Gary Stevens's fatal intercepted pass at Wembley in '86.

Agreed, Darren, but if Liverpool never looked capable of getting a foothold in the game, I can still remember Captain Pip's words, about them knowing Liverpool were going to throw the kitchen sink at them.

I actually enjoyed Moyes's last season until we lost at Norwich in February, when it was obvious that his squad wasn't big enough and it was back to flogging dead horses again.

We got out the blocks very fast, beat Man Utd first game, won very convincingly at Villa and Swansea, and we were in the top 4 going into the New Year, when we won our last away match of the season on 2 January.

That semi-final was possibly the worst I've ever felt after a game of football and, with Liverpool finally there for the taking, and also finally, a taste of some redemption was on the cards for us crucified Toffees, the bastards went and crucified us again.

We knew Liverpool would throw the kitchen sink at us? And unfortunately for us, not a winners mentality in-fucking-sight.

As soon as Distin gave that goal away, it was like 25,000 Evertonians all cast their minds back to Stevens's pass, Steve, and the lyrics from Peter Gabriel's family snapshot resonated through our tortured brains.

All very Brockesque, but in reverse.

No winning mentality indeed in 2012, Tony. From the minute Liverpool equalised, even those we believed would fight to the end stopped looking to receive the ball. At 1-1 the game was already up.

Liverpool were indeed there for the taking in that game.
Distins pass back was poor agreed, but a more proactive manager would have seen how out of sorts the opposition were on that day and gone for the throat.
Moyes didnt and the rest is history.
Suarez goal should have been a consolation not an equaliser.
They were there for the taking and Moyes didnt take advantage.

There is no doubt they were there for the taking in 2012, but as always, no matter how we did, those spawny gets always got a helping hands from ourselves, you can count on one hand, the number of mistakes Gary Stevens and Distin made for us, both against them.

Everton players heads dropped in both those games, the rest is history.

Andy Carrol facing away from goal and it hitting the back of his head for the winner just added to the pain.

Even when they played their kids in the cup with a different Manager, and we just could not get the ball in the back of the net in the first half, they did us yet again.

We battered them at Goodison, only for Surez to take Mirallas out of the game before the game ending 3 all, then there was the Lescott no penalty and the Kuyt Kung fu kick in another game.

The 3 all against utd and the ref blowing as Jagielka was through on goal.

So yes Moyes record was poor against certain teams, but when you get luck and decisions go against you, not a lot you can do about it.

Whenever he got us into a good position, he always dithered over improving us in the transfer market and choked in every game against a top 4 team for 11 years.

If Ferguson hadn't lured him away, would he still be our manager now? I shudder at the thought.

11 years of total mediocrity, how on earth did we allow that to happen???

Think I would take the mediocrity, over the 7 years before he arrived and the 7 years since he left.

I have never seen another football club as unfit as our team over the past few years, bunch of lazy barstewards, blowing out of their backsides after 70-odd minutes.

We may not have got the results all the time under Moyes, but at least they never gave up after 70 minutes with being knackered.

I wish some of our recent managers had dithered over ‘improving’ us in the transfer market as much as Moyes did.

Arh, yeah, the good old days under Moyes. Why wouldn't anyone want them back?

Making himself the highest-paid person at the club and spoon-feeding us all shite.

Taking mediocrity over trying to achieve. Dithering instead of taking a gamble.

To top it all off, walking out on the club in an effective free transfer to Man Utd knowing he was shafting the club that made him a millionaire over the previous 11 years... Oh for those days.

There will always be pros and cons with David Moyes.

I prefer to remember the guy who got us into the top 4, with regular Europa league runs and an FA Cup final on a shoe string budget, when we didn't have a pot to piss in. Oh and watching proper conditioned players who were actually fit.

I do feel that if Moyes was spending Moshiri's millions we would be in a far better state than we are now.

Looking at West Ham now its like the EFC of old with hard working skilful players.

I'm not saying I want him back but I will never understand the vitriol towards him.

The "glass ceiling" mentality pissed a lot of people off, but I feel Moyes was given more than a fair hearing from the fans.

I for one was very surprised at the warmth of the send off he received from the faithful. A genuine appreciation for a guy who, although limited, had done his best working on a shoe string.
He'd had his critics, but It seemed to me that the whole of Goodison was wishing Bon Voyage.

It was the disrespect he showed when he thought he could use his knowledge of Fellaini and Baines's siuation to prize them away on the cheap. A total act of betrayal.

A crashing fall awaited billy big bollocks. That he was so shocked at the way Evertonians taunted him when Oviedo slotted to win at OT spoke volumes about the man

Stephen #29 - Probably 8/10 of my worst EFC moments of all time (well, since 1959) came under Moyes's stewardship.

Really? in the other 51 years there were only 2 worst memories?
So dropping Alex Young
Losing to WBA at Wembley
Selling Alan Ball
The draw at home to Panathaniakos
Losing 3-0 at GP in 1969 (can't mention the opponent)
1986 Cup Final
Losing 3-0 at Leeds in 1994
1989 Cup Final
Getting beat 3-0 by Tranmere at GP in the FA Cup
.. . and only 2 of them get in your top 10. Which ones, or do you have others?

Darren #65
Just curious, as it seems somewhat contradictory, but why were you "very surprised" at the warmth of the send off Moyes received given that he had as you stated "done his best working on a shoestring"?

Moyes was deeply unpopular with a large section of the fanbase Brendan.

My take (and I can only give my take) is he was the perfect fit for the club when he arrived and he did an awful lot to restore a lost pride, but once that pride was restored. He appeared to lack the devilment to take it to the next step. That frustrated fans.
He brought us so close, but as many have discovered that last step is often the most difficult to take. He started to speak of glass ceilings. Many felt he was forging a comfortable living by managing expectation. Many hated his cosy relationship with uncle Bill. The feelings of frustration gradually turned to anger.

I cringe when people talk about the "Carlo haters" It`s the rhetoric of the idiot. You cant hate a man you don't know. You can hate him being in charge though. Thats what I think happened with Moyes. Thousands of match goers simply hated him being our manager. he was too conservative for too long for their liking.

I honestly don't know if his critics stayed away that day, or simply chose to remember the things he had done so well - There were many things he did well.
I just know I was about eight rows back in the Park end that day, so I could see just about every part of the ground. It appeared the whole stadium was up applauding.

Thinking about it now. I'm not sure I can explain it. The guy who had been hammered by so many for so long was being given a reception which bordered on rapturous.

The short version of that Brendan is; I dont know

Darren (67), I go along with most of your summary of Moyes’ time at Everton, disliked him intensely myself, hated, really hated Kenwright, the phoniest of Evertonians.

On the day he left v WHU, I couldn’t believe how many stayed on after the game to applaud him, I wasn’t one of them, I was on my toes and out of the Upper Bullens as soon as the ref blew his whistle for full time, I had to wait in Gwladys St, for my lift, glad to to say quite a few fans had done the same as me and left at the end, being honest that could have been for a variety of reasons, mine was because I wanted no part of the love in with Dour, Dreary, look after myself Moyes.

Don't like the way he treated the club at the end and saw his arse at Man United and perhaps whilst there, showing his true colours who knows. I don't like him but he was a very good manager for us. I don't know how anyone could argue that after the team he built up on very little money here. Just look at the Charlies and con merchants we have had since, and I partially include Ancelotti in that. Come on people, he has been here a year, he was brought in because of his experience to be better than what we have had previously and IMHO he has failed so far. Christ we have spent 500m pounds and this is all Carlo Magnifico can manage! Playing players out of their normal position when there are players available to play in that position and mindboggling substitutions as well. Even a good manager can create a fully functional team, Ancelotti is suppose to be one of the best managers in club football ever! A good manager ensures the team performs adequately in all aspects of the game, its not just about keeping big name players sweet.

I agree Tony, there are only two managers who have had our team fighting and playing with passion since Joe Royle left.

That was David Moyes and Duncan Ferguson.

You could argue Martinez’s first season as well, before he got found out in his second season.

In the last twenty years I know of no other manager with his expertise in the transfer market. No wonder Kenwright loved him, he managed a better return with £1m a year than Moshiri has got with half a billion.
I think the reason Evertonians cant forgive him is he made it apparent he had no real regard for the club. His astonishing work ethic was more about personal pride than any endeavour for Evertonians. Having said all that, he is manifestly a good egg. A decent chap. Who else would walk away from millions of pounds that he could have extracted from Sunderland when he walked. You can see that from the regard the players have for him.

I agree Ancellotti should be doing better, especially with some of the players he’s picking, but to put the £500 million on him is part of the problem, considering some of the shite we have wasted an absolute fortune on.

Kenwright loved Moyes, much more than he loved Everton, because he helped make them both a fortune whilst dimming down expectations, although this is all the past right now.

It’s quite simple. You can dislike a manger who became too conservative for many people’s taste and ambitions but you can also applaud the work he did, the improvement he made. You are allowed more than one opinion of the man, both truths can be held at the same time.
It’s balance, and being decent people. He deserved a his send off.

Who cares about his attempts to buy Fellaini and Baines? It’s a professional game do you think he’s holds some code of honor not buy players he likes and get them for as cheap as possible? That’s the whole point of a transfer.

Moyes despite his failures, has never hidden from work, and finally looks to been given enough time to make West ham, well very ‘unWest Ham’.

Joe Mcmahon 5. Spot on.

A good manager who had us playing our most consistent and best stuff since the eighties at one point.

When he had the right balance in the squad we played some good football (2006 to 2009). After that transfer drought (remember when we didn't make a major signing for years after Heitinga?) he built another good side just before his departure.

As it is nowhere else on this site

Sad to hear that Houllier has died today. Roy aside, the last Liverpool manager who was a gentleman.

I heard that when Moyes arrived, Houllier invited him for a dinner and the two of them became good friends. Houllier appreciated that there were two clubs in the city and was respectful of Everton - even if his sides did beat us on most occasions.

Since them we have had to have the obnoxious self seeking preening idiots on the other side of the park - Roy excepted.

Jim #35
I don't agree that Martinez was a victim of Moyes 11 years.
I think in the first season he was the beneficiary. He inherited a superbly fit, organised and disciplined squad defensively but cautious offensively.
Martinez allowed the players to express themselves football wise which really worked for the first season. It was like letting a dog off a leash, unfortunately this resulted in a team during the second season which were not longer superbly fit, disorganised defensively and without direction. Moyes must be given credit for bringing structure and organisation to the club where his teams were built to fight for every ball, compete for 90 minutes and not concede goals. It was a formula which consistently delivers top 5-8 finishes, more often qualifying for European places. He was not given resource to compete in the transfer market with the CL qualifiers hence his conservatism. His problem was that he stuck with a tried and tested formula of a club without resources. Funnily how now our short term ambition is to be part of the TOP SIX a position regularly achieved by Moyes and dismantled by Martinez due to lack of boring basic expectations such as fitness, organisation and commitment.

We are now considered at the same level as Southampton, Leicester and dont forget we have already lost to Newcastle, newly promoted Leeds.

Oh how times have changed.

Nice to be proved correct.

Simon Stone
BBC Sport

West Ham manager David Moyes has been paying tribute to Gerard Houllier, who died yesterday.

Houllier was Liverpool boss when Moyes got the Everton job in March 2002 and never forgot the way he was treated by someone who was supposed to be a major rival.

"I have great memories of Gerard, and he was a great man," said Moyes.

"He was very helpful to me at moments when I was young and said some really nice things that gave me great confidence.

"When I got the Everton job, the League Managers' Association rang and said Gerard wanted to meet me privately. We just sat and talked about football.

"He knew the rivalry was big so it was a great thing he did. I thought the meeting was a tradition so when Gerard left, I got in touch with all the managers after to make the same offer. They all said no, which says a lot about what Gerard had done.

"He was a classy man. He gave everyone attention. It was a real shock."

You don't have to be nasty, because there is quite some vitriol in this thread.
the verdict on David Moyes comes down to
a. we would have been relegated by 2005 and who knows then.
b. he consistently finished in the top 8 - after 2-3 years
c. As the years went by the team played increasingly more attractive football. 50+ goals every season after 05/06
d. First impressions last.
e. He had teams which were gritty and gave everything for the club.

against
a. he never won anything
b. too defensive when he first arrived
c. he was too timid against the big teams
d. he got it wrong when he left (Baines/Fellaini - Big Team)
e. too close to our pantomime villain.

Sadly we have too many who are black or white and a smaller number who look at things in shades of grey. Brilliant or Useless is the only option for many rather than did some good things but not perfect. But there again, who of us are?

Phil,

I remember when Houllier was at Villa and struggling a bit. Moyes was asked by a hack would he be interested in going to Villa. Moyes gave him the familiar 1000 yard stare, and said very coldly, and clearly angry, that Villa already had a manager, and a brilliant one at that.

Well put, Phil [78]. Whilst it was an ill-considered expression that was bound to grate, the fact is that, budget-wise, Moyes was given a knife to prise the acquisition of players in the face of the sophisticated weaponry allocated to the likes of Man City, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea. And prise he did: Distin, Yakubu, Cahill, Baines, Fellaini, Arteta, etc.

Whilst, like everyone else, I imagine, I'd take Ancellotti in a heartbeat over him, the fact is that nobody who replaced him did a better job then he did. As others have pointed out, if it weren't for Moyes, we would be in the Championship or worse by now.

He did a good job for us and signed some very good players. He didn't manage his departure well and that soured the relationship with a section of the fans.

I don't think he deserves the vitriol he gets directed at him. Neither does he deserve lauding as a miracle-worker. He was a good manager at a difficult time in our history.

We need to move on now. The debates about Moyes are getting a bit tiresome now. Every new manager is compared to Moyes. Let's move on.

Craig #81,

This debate only arose because the Editors (rightly) put up a link to an interview given by Moyes. Of course a few old card carrying members of the MOB couldn't resist a dig and this drew a response from some of our more measured and objective ToffeeWebbers.

"Tiresome" it may be but it's not as if people are continually regurgitating old arguments just because we're mired in the past.

I just read the article. He certainly has a warped image of himself.

I would ask that Michael and Lyndon re- publish Eugene Ruane's wonderful piece on the Moyes family holiday. It is one of the finest pieces ever written on this site and utterly encapsulates the Moyes era. What makes it so special is that it was a throwaway bit of writing that went under the radar.
Hope you enjoyed the game yesterday, Eugene. As Pete suggested, why not write a report.

Andy Crooks 84

I second that it was hilarious

Andy, a very short report..

It was strange but truly wonderful to be inside Goodison again.

In fact given the current state of the world, my day could hardly have been better.

Firstly, not only did I manage to get a ticket but so did my mate who I attend all home games with.

Once we both got our (negative) test results (from some place in Speke) on Friday, we decided to make Saturday as much of a day of it as tier 2 would allow.

On Fri I asked TW on for 'food' pub recommendations and one of those was The Brick.

After looking at the menu I started with the seared Tuna on a bed of pan-fried Lark's tongues drizzled with..only kidding.

We got in there handy and settled in for a few pints (of Guinness).

I have to take my hat off to the staff/guv'nor there - their determination to keep going under what must be the most trying of circumstances (including dealing with nosey plod with nothing better to do but shove their oars in) was..um..Kiplingesque*

(* thinking opening couple of lines of 'If' rather than anything to do with cakes).

Btw, usually these days (nb: 'these days' meaning my bladder is 61) under normal circumstances, I rarely if ever have a pint before games, but with just 2000 in the ground, I knew there'd be no problem getting to the bogs.

After the pub we walked up to The Supper Bar for curry and chips which was (as always) superb.

The game was...well I'll assume everyone saw the game so I'll skip a match report.

The only 'insight' from a live perspective was seeing just how 'fully formed' (?) DCL looks now and how impressive and athletic Godfrey looked (player ratings by John Inman).

After the game, coz there was no traffic, we were away from the ground in no time and I was back in my local by 8pm and had 2 hrs with 'the lads' (ie: bitter resentful old men).

I'm not telling you the name of my local btw as I don't want if filling up with scruff (no offence!)

When I got home (I live just round the corner) I was full of Guinness, the memories of a wonderful and memorable day and was looking forward to watching MOTD.

It was a day that had almost allowed me to feel things were normal and that all was well with the world.

Then just before the football, the news - "TRAVEL-CHAOS-COVID-BREXIT-BANS-SHORTAGES-TIER 4-TRAINS-POLICE.."

It was sobering.

Well..ish

Up The Toffees and happy Christmas to one and all

Eugene- that sounds like somthing from another moment in time! Oh for a pint of Guinness, Great stuff.

Eugene- that sounds like somthing from another moment in time! Oh for a pint of Guinness, Great stuff.

Yeah, great that you had such a "grand day out", Eugene.

Jealous.

BTW, did the pan-fried Larks' Tongues come with Aspic, or does the Brick's chef have no truck with such, er, Fripperies? ;-)

Being thankful for small mercies, that sounds like the most wonderful of days Eugene, and listening with the sound turned almost to mute on my tv, I’m not exaggerating when I say it sounded like the ground was half full!

Eugene (86), glad you had a great day, always nice to read your posts, I still chuckle now and again at the memory of some of them, especially the one about your cousin who was a right moaning twat ( your words).

Hope you get to see some more of the Blues this season and enjoy more days like the one you had on Saturday.

Food in the Brick? I’ve heard the jukebox only plays one song, (let it snow!) and not just at Xmas either.

Eugene @86. Thanks a lot! Just sprayed my cup of tea all over the place, laughing at your Kipling reference. Gone all over the iPad

Tony, yep 'food' in The Brick.

Sure it might not be the kind of substantial meal (?) that would have Greg Wallace pulling the stomach out of himself - "First you get that wonderful hit of deep fryer, then you get that staggeringly over-salted zest" - but anything that allows me to have a few pre-match pints gets a five star review.

As for 'Let It Snow' on the jukey all year round, impressive, they must REALLY love Christmas.

- comic pause -

'Sniff!'

Being a season ticket holder exiled in Tier 4, I can only dream of days like that Eugene. But thanks for the report, I could almost taste the Larks' Tongues and smell the bogs.

Looking forward to us all being back in our seats sometime in the distant future, when we can get back to the serious business of hurling abuse at whichever player is being scapegoated for a slump, and singing the praises of whichever manager is leading us out of it.

Back on Moyes are we?

He's like that ex you tell everyone is a bitch or a bastard but still have cheeky fantasies about.

He did the club over when he left, acted with little respect with the derogatory Baines offer, but he also did a lot to turn around the fortunes of an ailing club. Not least through some excellent transfer business.

Christmas every day, Eugene, or until the horrors set in anyway!

I had a feeling you would go The Brick, once James said it was open, because it's the closest one he mentioned to the ground!

It's a proper scouse, Evertonian boozer though, full of characters, even though they took the character out of the building when they got rid of the little room with the coal fire in it all those years ago!

I genuinely think Liverpudlians described Moyes better than any Evertonian, Jim, when they used to dim him with false praise.

“Good manager, Moyes” they used to say, until they were asked “Why – would youse have him?”

Then the shake of the head and the smirk used to come, then the “No – not a fucking chance! Not for us... definitely not!”

Agree with Sam (4) and quite a few others.

David Moyes made us tough to beat and gave us a presence we had lacked for years.

Yes, we didn't win a trophy but, apart from the top 4-5, we could 'expect' to win most games.

That glass ceiling mentality was right through the game – not just with Everton. We didn't have the money available to build or sustain in-depth squads but he gave us a competitive grit amongst the rest of the division and, on our day, could push anyone.

Yes, I, like everyone else, hated the way he was courted and delighted in being Ferguson's lapdog but, looking back without the bitterness, we had had better times than we had witnessed for years.

I bear him no malice and enjoyed many a match under his management.

Phil, I'd agree with all that had Moyes left in 2008 rather than take the piss out of the club for 5 years on a King's ransom. He mentions in his article that he trusted youth. That's absolute bollocks. When he left he was still selecting Hibbert over Coleman as often as he could and how long was it before he trusted Baines?

The old one of "if he had money to spend" grinds my gears too. He was excellent at sniffing out a bargain, but the times he broke the club record he screwed up dramatically. Fellaini was a mild success but nowhere near the value paid for him when considering the club's financial situation at the time.

I'm grateful for what he did in his first five years, but I won't try and hide the joy I felt when he was shown to be a massive fraud when he went to Manchester United.