A Year of Moyes Mark II, but is it stagnating?

The football is still terrible to watch, we are out of every domestic competition and pose very little threat to any of the top teams.

In fact we pose very little threat to the mid-table teams, Spurs, Brentford, Sunderland, Wolves have all but played us off the park and at home to boot.

Moyes may last to the end of the season but that should be the last we see of him imo, I (personally) could not stand another season of his inept tactics and wasted opportunities to carry us forward.

I think Moyes has from now until May to prove that he can take us forward as opposed to just being comfortable and surviving.

Currently, as devoted as I am, I am bored, disappointed and unemotional watching them.

Fast passing and moving. A basic tactic, but one we don't use a lot.

Strange that! Must be the manager's fault.

This decision will cost us places in the Premier League. Moyes wants to save up, it seems.

When Dewsbury-Hall moved in to the Number 8 position, I thought some of the team's link play was the best I'd seen from us for some time. Although limited only by our strike force.

People don't seem to be looking at how thin this squad really is, but expecting miracles.

Without our key missing players, the fact is we're not too different to the Bottom 3.

He's a fucking dinosaur, never plays young players, always gives us Blues excuses, fucking lied to us about Aznou... his subs!... game management is dogshit, his away record at top away grounds is piss poor... and we all know it!!

I simply never liked him... 11 years without a Cup?... He is a multi-millionaire out of our club!!

Get Rid!

He is the fucking master of deflecting the truth too!

In his last stint it took time and patience (what some fans lack !). He took the club from the doldrums into European football and created an exciting team to watch with no money backing him.

He was on the cusp of something great and he will finish the job this time. There will be ups, downs and stagnations but I've no doubt we are on the right path to success.

The squad is very thin, I think that's very easy to see Paul C, but it's the way the squad is used that doesn't really fill me with any confidence, and this lack of confidence probably applies to quite a few of the players in his squad?

I expect us to finish the season strongly once we get everyone back fit, but I'm just as uncertain about TSF -- The Silent Friedkins) as I am about David Moyes, as another trophyless season passes us by.

This season, with a decent start, I think that supporters see a manager who is predictable in his tactics, his misuse of timings of substitutions, and his handling of youth players.

They believe that we need a more progressive manager who can be unpredictable in possession, and doesn't keep passing backwards, allowing the opposition to reorganize.

The opposition seem to be able to win a ball in their own area and 3 passes later are in our area yet Everton take 4 or 5. There is no doubt that Moyes will keep Everton in a safe league position but he does not seem capable of putting out a strong team in other competitions.

A new stadium needs new ideas and Moyes appears to be too one-minded to provide them.

Ferguson, Ancelotti, Benitez, Lampard, Dyche, Moyes since; we realise that we now need another manager.

With missing key players, the wisdom is we need a new manager.

Get him gone. Get a new manager in, and we can look forward to a European tour with loads of cups on the way. It's a squad of world beaters no doubt.

Glad we learnt from Marco...

You don't build a squad in 1 transfer window, or 2 for that matter. The massive turn around in players at the end of last season was always going to be a challenge.

The 2 big buys haven't worked out yet in Barry and Dibling but that's football isn't it? Then you have Dewsbury-Hall who's probably exceeded expectations.

Managers lose games, some on TW go on like Moyes inherited the Man City squad and has us mid-table!! We've been shopping in bargain basements for 2-3 years and the squad players reflect that.

I didn't want Moyes back, not because I didn't think he'd do a good job, but because he won't get the same time from fans to build a side because of his previous with the club.

If we are still playing as bad as against Brentford, Wolves or Sunderland when we have Dewsbury-Hall, Gana, Alcaraz and Branthwaite on the pitch, I'd be worried.

Ultimately he averages out with a win record of 40% for his whole managerial career. Steady but unspectacular. You'll rarely, if ever, win something.

We shouldn't expect anything else from him.

We aren't going to get Champions League or get relegated. It does get boring and the inconsistency is infuriating.

But compared to the last few seasons of constant relegation battles, this is progress, genuinely.

We need more than 1.5 transfer windows to take us forward and hopefully players in key positions remaining available and performing to their potential.

This season has so far played out exactly as I predicted it would. Just hoping we can add some more quality this month, we desperately need it.

In all the teams Davey has built here, none of them can be described as “exciting“.

You're not getting Tarkowski, Mykolenko, McNeil, Beto or Patterson playing in a team that's playing glorious football. That's where the squad is at: years of under investment has left us with a rag-tag bunch of squad "bodies ". Once you need to start using them, the performance levels drop dramatically.

"You get what you pay for" is the saying... well, £25-27M for a striker these days is not big. We paid more for Michael Keane!!!

A honeymoon period lasts about 12 months... then a plateau... then the sack, all in the space of about 18 months.

I don't think TFG will be much different to Moshiri or any other owners in the Premier League. The Barry and Dibling signings are looking like sackable offences.

If Barry had scored 10 goals by now we would be very close to the Top 5.

Dibling is a concern for me: for a young lad, his body language is terrible. He looks a shadow of the player Southampton had.

Moyes has done well overall, steadying the ship. The formation is very similar to what we had with Dyche only we have a couple of better players available.

I'm sure we've had it before.

Anyway, with the players we have available, I didn't expect much; I hoped we would do better. Could Moyes have done better with his selections? Yes, slightly. Would we have done better? Who knows.

I really wish I knew how much influence the gaffer had with the Dibling and Barry signings and how much influence he had on Calvert-Lewin leaving or staying? I think it will be very telling if we sign any players this window!

If we bring any more young players who may or may not be ready to start, then the writing may be on the wall at the end of this season... but I can't imagine the owners or CEO doing that.

If we bring in older more established players ready to play, age 27 or 28 or above, loaned or especially bought, then he will run out his contract if we finish Top 8.

So we will know what is likely to happen with the signings or lack of signings... and Goodbye David at the end of the season if there are no signings as that will mean the board don't trust him.

Dibling arrived here probably busting to play and couldn't get on the pitch until Moyes ran out of options through absentees... no wonder he looks pissed off.

Aznou basically put 2 fingers up to him yesterday and who can blame him? He never changes things until it's pretty much too late and that's him to a tee.

He's done a job but should be gone by the end of the season -- or the next one won't be any different.

In my view, you should never go back (eg, Kendall Mk II and III); it very rarely works out. That being said, we need some stability and he sees out this season and quite possibly the next if the recruitment team or Kinnear and Moyes can find some middle ground on players to improve the squad.

We don't need another summer of investment on players which fits into neither party's plans.

What I wil say is that, if these owners have any ambition, they will be succession planning now and right up to the summer in identifying Moyes's replacement to bring in once his contract is up in 2027.

The question is who would replace him and improve us, the expectation and pressure is far greater at Everton than many of the clubs in the Premier League.

How many up-and-coming managers have left comfortable positions only to fail drastically when moving to a so-called top club? Frank, Potter, Santo spring to mind.

Would you rather we were in West Ham's position at the moment? Yesterday, we were missing 4 of our first choice midfield; add to that Alcaraz and Iroegbunam. We have a top 'keeper and a good selection of centre-backs.

Sort the striker and full-back situation and we have the makings of a reasonable side.

Move heaven and earth to get him back.

Either of them will do it for me!

Moyes buys players he thinks will provide stability; he rarely buys players who will add flair and excitement. Safety-first football is in his DNA, which is why his teams are so frustrating to watch and fans get fed up with him after a while.

I watched the Bighton v Man Utd game yesterday. Brighton were superb in the way they moved and passed the football with ease... Oh for a manager who would implement that at Everton.

That is a testament to Moyes. He has done a great job at taking a team set for relegation and keeping them in mid-table.

I don't think it's the manager at Brighton who has them playing the way they do, it's the culture which has been developed by the club over the last 10 years.

Successive managers at Brighton have played a similar way, Recruitment also has a consistent formula.

The culture at Brighton, Brentford and Bournemouth may have been born out of necessity but it wipes the floor with our continual scattergun strategy and recruitment.

Moyes has brought in his hangers-on, including his son. When he gets the sack, which he will do eventually, they will all disappear and we are left back at Square 1.

The owners need to show some leadership and innovation to build us back up into a competitive force; otherwise, they are just in it to take the dividends and run.

How much would Dibling be worth now? His lack of game time is killing his confidence, and if we were allegedly short on the left side, why did we buy him? No one is going to dislodge Ndiaye, so the charge that he can't break into the team isn't fair.

Aznou should be playing more. End of.

I know the comparisons become tiresome but, having sat in Goodison Park for the last however long, fearing relegation and listening to away supporters taking the piss, it is great to be in a better place.

I also think he should go in the summer with our thanks. There has to come a time when the club moves forward. David has started us down the road someone with a bit more ambition needs to carry us on.

(Got to say, though, as I am no expert -- not sure who!)

We need somebody to change the culture, that means employing a manager who will buy players to do just that.

No way would any manager be able to turn McNeil, Barry, Beto etc into good footballers, they simply don't have it in them.

And then, later in the game, it's usually changed to “Is this a fire drill?” But it's great to be in a better place, John C!

Moyes should put pressure on the owners now, we need a right-back, our two strikers are the worst in the Premier League, a striker is a must also. Why not sign Abraham who's on loan at Besiktas from Roma? Shouldn't be a problem, same owners!

Firstly you need players who can do what you saw Brighton do. I'm not certain we have those players. The current team at Everton are basically the same side that has fought relegation for the last few years.

Recruitment in the summer has been iffy and I am certain a number of those players were not the choice of Moyes. He wants the job, so gets on with it, but he knows it will end in a couple of years.

And there’s the rub, we are playing percentage football, to exactly the same predictable pattern, that picks up enough points for safety, or mid table.

Moyes won’t disturb that by giving Dibling freedom or throwing in an Aznou. That breaks the pattern. Don’t expect it. He said he didn’t want to make any of the substitutions on Saturday, Aznou wasn’t coming on.

Would you rather be safe or going down playing nice football?

Well the majority prove that you can play good football and win. That’s my preference, I don’t see it as an either or.

Yes but you can’t do it unless you have the financial resources of City/ Arsenal. Sorry plenty like Brighton, Brentford, Villa prove that you can.

We have fought relegation for years.

Breaking the cycle by needs must pragmatic football may be ok for a quick fix, but then you have to aim higher.

Rome wasn’t built in a day..it will take a little time. But start by getting on the right path. An agreed vision for the club, a change in culture. A forward thinking manager, with a football management team recruiting well, building an academy that brings forward first team players. We’re not on this path.

Others can do it, I want it for Everton too, and I don’t accept we’ve been poor for years, so I’m expecting too much.

I don’t expect success overnight but I do expect a forward thinking plan to get us there. I’m not seeing it. Time for some ambition.

Add further quality alongside KDH, Ndiaye, Grealish, Branthwaite. Fill the obvious positional gaps. Invest in the academy.

But change the culture throughout the club from ‘first don’t lose’ to ‘play to win’.

Yes it’s a relief not to be in a relegation battle at this stage, but I want more than mid table mediocrity, season over in January.

I’m not simply anti Moyes but I am anti percentage hoof ball football and defeatist culture. Show me a plan that breaks the cycle. At this moment that’s all I ask.

Oh my god, it couldn't happen... Could it? Tell me so!

He would change our entire team. Still need depth though.

Baines and Pienaar obviously... but, other than Osman or Arteta playing a quick one-two, it's not the type of football that I have ever really associated with a David Moyes team.

That's not to say that his teams have never played good football... but I've always thought it has usually been more about the discipline and the grind.

Any non-activity in adressing those gaps is down to t'committee he has to report to.

Many people will rightly point out our stretched squad and absent players -- but doesn't that make it even worse that Moyes doesn't use all the players at his disposal... even when we clearly need an injection of something different???

Moyes generally plays not to lose first, then win second. It's fine, we'll not be relegated that way; but it unravels if you haven't got the capability to change it up. Every other team knows what subs Moyes will use, when he'll use them and what tactics will change.

This isn't saying Moyes is a bad manager, he's good at what he does. The question is whether what he does is what we want and deserve. For some, it's a Yes; for other,s like me, it's a No.

All teams are affected by injuries, mate, as you know. Sunderland had 8 players missing from their squad yet played us off the park in the first half.

I don't like Moyes's style of football, but he was my choice to avoid relegation last season. However, we will have no chance of ending our trophy drought under David.

Show some fuckin ambition, Everton.

It's also time the owners showed their faces.

Oh, and go and get Abraham on loan! Surely it'd be a straightforward deal. Then again, it's Everton.

The case for Moyes, like his brand of football, is a starkly conservative one. Our growth as a football club will be limited by his lack of growth in managerial method.

Our fans have always reacted to what's happening on the pitch -- we don't sing for singing's sake. We're not Palace "ultras" or Geordie fuckwits.

Give us something to cheer and we will roar them on!
Play shit and we'll grumble.

I recall the 1960s... we were convinced that we didn't have the same atmosphere as the bloody Kop because our noise was lost as Gwladys Street was largely open to the skies.

Remember the chants of "We Want A Roof", both to keep us snug and acoustically to channel our chants down to the pitch.

Look at Roma, they're 4th in Serie A now, 4 points off top spot. They eventually brought a decent manager in, Gasperini from Atalanta, and he's made them a much more threatening proposition than under the ‘safe pair of hands' Ranieri.

And that's what Moyes is now for us, a safe pair of hands, nothing more. The next appointment is the key, who will it be? What about Xabi Alonso?

He'd be cheaper than Moyes anyway -- who is on a £12½M salary, let's not forget this. Him coming back to Everton benefits him the most, not us.

Management made an active, deliberate decision to hold fire on squad spending until the summer. How do we know? Because they apprised us of it in advance.

Both Kinnear and Moyes openly told us to expect little or nothing. Kinnear even predicted how much he'd enjoy reading all the speculation about incoming players, knowing it was groundless.

This lack of activity may be driving us all crazy, but it's not inertia or incapability or intractability -- it is intentional. By Kinnear's account, TFG pretty much decided well before the window not to buy anybody in January.

Could we do loans to ease our crisis? Perhaps, but who? Are there quality right-backs and strikers out there who aren't playing enough for their current clubs, who want to come to Everton and who would be better than what we've got?

No idea. I haven't heard of any. Haven't seen any significant loan deals in the Premier League. Haven't even heard any fresh rumours.

It looks like we will have to wait for June. That's what they told us and that's what they're doing.

I'm all for paying for experience but that doesn't seem right does it? Surely there are conditions and bonuses that make this look less disproportionate.

Not bringing players in now is a terrible decision. It doesn't matter when this decision was made, it's a bad one. Change your mind maybe, TFG?

Adapt to the shite we're watching. Why is it a better idea to wait till this Summer? It might be because they're getting rid of Moyes. Thank Christ for that.

So my guess is he's going to the shite, not us!

He's on £12½M for the duration of his 30-month contract or £5M per year.

Personally, I wouldn't get out of bed for that...

He took over a squad that had spent the last 3 seasons fighting relegation. He quickly turned things around with the same squad and got us away from relegation.

We are 12th in the Premier League and he hasn't been able to select his best centre-back, he has had 3 of his best players unavailable to him for the last few weeks, and some are questioning if we are on the slide.

He has had to play Beto or Barry as the main striker, and nobody will convince me Moyes sanctioned the signing of Barry. He had openly said last season he expects more from Beto this season; so, having said that, why would he buy an untried youngster for the Premier League?

Grealish and Dewsbury-Hall have added much-lacking quality to this squad and, if he is allowed to spend in the summer and not the recruitment team, I think he will bring players in who will improve this squad.

Also, the improvement in Garner, who looks a different player under Moyes -- yes, the main reason for the improvement has to be given to the player but I think Moyes deserves some credit.

As for possible alternatives to Moyes... well, please tell me who we can guarantee will do a better job?

Thomas Frank was touted by many on here and his own fans are singing "You're getting sacked in the morning!" Nuno did a decent job at Forest but their stupid owner sacked him and now, at West Ham, apparently he is one defeat away from the sack.

Postecoglu was also mentioned by some on here, sacked from Spurs and Forest. Amorin and Maresca already sacked this season.

Maybe give Moyes another 12 months and see where we are is my take on it. I said when he came back, he would leave the club in a better place than when he left... and I firmly believe that.

It has been clear to everyone that we have needed a full-back, and it was also clear that, after we beat Forest playing with a natural full-back, if we were to win the next two very winnable home games, we would be within a point of 4th place with a lot of our better players ready to return for the run-in.

Did we not sign a full-back because people within the club thought we already had one? Or has it been a dereliction of duty, considering the importance of what was needed?

Well, I have to say you have been completely consistent in your support of Moyes, so you deserve a lot of credit for that.

You wrote three, Brian; most people do, but when people look at the proper facts, then it was one season under Lampard after he replaced Benitez, and then one season under Dyche after he replaced Lampard.

We were then put under pressure with the points deductions and this made it a very difficult campaign but we were well clear by the end and would have been mid-table, and possibly even higher, if another small squad hadn't had to play under enormous pressure.

The club was a total mess and this took its toll on Dyche, who said he believed he couldn't take the squad any further. Then David Moyes stepped in and got us to safety relatively quickly.

Steady the ship - steady the ship - the ship was already steadied the day we finally moved into the new stadium, (except for the speed of the recruitment afforded to our manager in the summer - the same ludicrously slow speed is being applied again now).

It's about time we started talking about getting it sailing again.

We could've done with his goal-scoring ability from midfield.

"Did we not sign a full-back because people within the club thought we already had one, or has it been a dereliction of duty considering the importance of what was needed?"

Pure guesswork here but I assume management does understand the need for full-backs -- these are not stupid people -- but didn't see anybody out there who was available, good enough to make a difference, interested in coming to Everton, and worth the cost.

Our old TW talent scouts, Robert and Sam, have moved on, and nobody here is doing research, but I certainly haven't seen or read about any players who would jump off the screen at me.

As to the ship already being steadied, we don't know that, because we're not seeing the financial numbers they look at every day. We don't know what the club's PSR/SCR situation is right now. And TFG isn't going to share that information publicly.

But... I'll point out his managerial record, over the past god knows how many years he's won the equivalent of a sub-standard European trophy (I know! we'd all of loved that). But look at his managerial record beside that.

Left us for what he perceived as a shoo-in for success... Sacked!
Sunderland... Left before he was... Sacked!
Real Sociedad... Sacked!
West Ham Utd... Sacked!
Weat Ham again... Sacked!

That's 5 clubs who have given him the Spanish Archer... why? Because his brand of football does not deliver anything other than safety first, boring, un-entertaining, bland football.

Who would have thought we would have a season where we weren't terrified of going down?

Surely I wasn't alone?

I don't think any manager would get our players moving the ball the way you said Brighton did... or Brentford, Sunderland or even Wolves second half did against us.

A manager's job is to get the best out of the players available to him based on each player's own ability. If we tried to be adventurous like you wish, we would end up leaking goals every week, just like we did in Martinez's second season.

As for the calls of Silva, never go back. And for Iraola or Glasner, you assume that they would want to take on the job and believe we have the players to play their type of football...

Also, Crystal Palace were beaten by a team how many divisions below them on Saturday. If that happened to us,, we would be on the warpath.

It's obviously a lot harder to predict if the player will be a success but I think this has always been the case.

That's one reason we will stagnate.

When you have a statistically failed experiment playing O'Brien at right back that the manager persisted with rather than even trying Aznou in one of the full back slots, you have to call his judgement into question.

We always talk about how the Brightons and Bournemouths keep unearthing gems - maybe Aznou is that gem but it's not in Moyes' nature to take that risk.

Maybe the recruitment team think he's that gem too and aren't willing to back Moyes as a result.

As for Palace getting dumped out of the cup, it's worthwhile pointing out that Glasner has won more in 23 months at Palace than Moyes has in 23 years. He's also won a proper European trophy.

I seriously doubt the club would have more than doubled his salary after 6 months

I saw Everton linked for a loan move for Ben White, although I doubt Arsenal would weaken their squad at this stage. Also, Roma are reported to have agreed a loan deal with an option to buy Donyell Malen for £24.6M.

As Tony says, if you need a player for a certain position, you will always find exactly the type of player that you need.

Roma fans forced the departure of the CEO after De Rossi was fired. Everton fans have seen off the entire board.

TFG had best be careful lest they repeat the mistakes they made in Italy.

No it's not David.

Not sure why you think Moyes feels like he's being left in the breeze -- did you get the impression he was angry when he told us there wouldn't be much business in January?

As for Roma, it is at an entirely different stage than us -- five years into Friedkin ownership, fully financially stabilized, and challenging for a Serie A title, just four points off the top. A player like Malen could make the difference. No single player, or even two, will make much difference where we finish. And I would speculate that's one reason why management doesn't look like buying a top right back.

Are you sure Mike? We are only 3 points of 15th or 4 points off 5th. Those are small margins, and a difference of £27m in prize money. Seems to me it would be mismanagement not to try and close the gap to 5th rather than whimper down to 15th.

I mean, this is absolute bollocks - 'No single player, or even two, will make much difference [to - sic] where we finish'.

Football is a simple game, complicated by idiots. We will look a better defensive unit with the availability of Branthwaite & Gana, and we will look a more attacking threat with Grealish, Ndiaye & Dewesbury Hall in the team.

A couple of full backs are needed, as is an experienced goal scorer/centre forward, & right winger with goals & assists.

We need more players coming in, calling time on others that clearly aren"t good enough.

Interesting what is going on with ex players. It highlights that they were just never good enough, and why team performances were impacted with their contributions.

Most are still unwanted.

Doucoure - 0 goals & 1 assist

Harrison - 0 goals & 0 assists

Lindstrom - 0 goals & 0 assists

Maupay - 0 goals and 0 assists

Broja - 1 goal & 0 assists

Godfrey - no man's land after another loan terminated

Even Chermiti has struggled in a poor Scottish Premier League with 4 goals.

Weve had a collection of players that arent good enough for Everton, and still have some in that category. They leave and do absolutely nothing. Only real exception has been calvert lewin.

The previous board were never able to attend a match again after their defamation of the fans before the Soton game. At that point, the club effectively stopped having an functioning executive leadership team - they exited the building. The fans did that, and also saved the club by their fanatical commitment to supporting the team through successive relegation battles.

TFG should count themselves very lucky that they were able to step into that situation and take advantage of it.

I think that you lack a full understanding of the ethos and personality of the club you support. And you definitely do not understand David Moyes if you think he has not been vocal with the ownership about the need for reinforcements.

His despondent shrug of the shoulders and repeatedly muttering "unlikely" tells its own story of his interactions with Kinnear and the management. Flapping in the wind as The Dividend Group do nothing.

Well I'd disagree, no signing is guaranteed to succeed are they? Every single one is a gamble, especially foreign players with no experience of the Premier League.

That's football, some signings hit the ground running, others take time. Some will just never fit in or adapt.

We still need for James Garner to sign another contract. Moyes has been fulsome in his praise of the lad, so he has no doubts how important he is to this side.

Also, Michael Keane signed a 1-year contract last season and for me he has been our best centre-back and, with Branthwaite missing yet another large part of the season, you have to ask: Has this operation finally cleared up his hamstring problems?

Certainly Moyes's body language has changed at his recent press conferences; that may be because of many things but I get the impression he isn't enamoured with our recruitment team. I also think that, if he doesn't feel he is being backed by the owners, he could well walk come the summer.

He certainly doesn't need the money. I believe he came back to try and win a trophy and, if he doesn't feel he is being backed, then what's the point of staying if this club is becoming a Chelsea were the manager has little say in recruitment and the policy is to buy young for their resalable value if they prove not good enough.

Unlike Mike Gaynes, I am not convinced about TFG. I hope I am wrong.

Good point. None of the foreign players will have played at the pace of the Premier League in their own domestic leagues. Even the greats took time to adapt.

Desailly, a top, top centre-back, struggled in the first half of his first season.

Robert Pires told Wenger after his first game and a welcome off the full-back "I can't play in this league!"

It certainly didn't feel like that this Summer, partly I know because the team wasn't fully in place. And failure to sort out the right-back, that's just negligence.

I think David Moyes is pretty pissed off, not throwing his toys out the pram, just letting his demeanour show it.

He wanted more in the Summer, he wanted greater squad depth (he knew the current predicament would arrive) and he wanted more Premier League ready acquisitions and fewer ‘potential' recruits.

Some may say that's short-sighted, but he's on a short-term contract, with a need for a quick fix, before ‘potential' follows and takes us to the next stage.

I don't think the manager, owners, and recruitment team are completely aligned. I'd like to hear more but we're currently run like the Freemasons.

We are in safe hands, but Angus Kinnear is clearly not a football man, he's all about the bottom line.

However, to say a signing can't make a difference can be completely blown away by Jelavic in 2012.

I seem to remember him scoring every game but it was 9 goals in 13 league games a quick wiki search tells me. Before he arrived, we had lost 10 games in the league; after he arrived, we lost only 2 for the rest of the season.

That's the difference a January signing can make and I'd wager that'd get us very close to Top 4 this season.

I would just like to point out that the following managers have been sacked at some point in their careers.

Marco Silva
Eddie Howe
Unai Emery
Nuno Santos
Maresca
Postecoglou
Rob Edwards
Daniel Farke
Scott Parker
Ruben Amorim
Sean Dyche

Not sure about Thomas Frank, Iraola, Hurzeler and Regis Le Bris as the info is a bit iffy.

But have they been sacked by every club they've ever managed at top level?

The catchphrase in this generation is "mutual consent" but it's just a sack of a different color.

Yes, mate. Plenty don't settle straight away, many don't even make it in the Premier League.

Easy to say look at Brighton, Bournemouth etc, but for every Caicedo or Cucurella, they sign flops too. I'm not saying they are not excellent at getting players, but it's not every player they sign.

Our transfer policy for the last few seasons has been all about sales, balancing PSR, cheap buys. Hopefully now we can start a longer term strategy, Dibling, Rohl and Barry point to that... Okay neither set the world alight, but they are still young.

Our squad players, like McNeil, Patterson, Keane just are not good enough -- the drop in quality in massive. That's down to long-term underinvestment.

These clubs that fans point to, like Brighton and Bournemouth, haven't just suddenly found themselves where they are; they have planned, it's over several seasons, it's no quick fix or you are going down the 'boom and bust' strategy of Moshiri.

I think Moyes has been burned by foreign transfers in the past and is reluctant to sign players untried in the Premier League; however, we need to be getting them before they are Premier League tried and tested to reduce transfer fees, so fans need to be patient with younger signings.

What have you got to do tonight to give yourself a chance, was the question? We have got to play with energy, because this is what will give everyone in the stadium, real energy, and this is something we can all feed off - (Or words to that affect)

It's not rocket science, not like watching Tarkowski standing on the corner of the 6-yard box, waiting to pass the ball to Pickford, in the middle of his box, anyway.

Especially when someone shoots and he deflects it past the tourettes fella in goal.

Tony, second leg in three weeks mate.

I have obviously not been concentrating properly, because when I heard them say that there would be no extra time or penalties tonight, I don't know why, but I just automatically assumed it was a one-off game for some stupid reason.

I thought Moyes signed Kudos.

There weren't many better players than him in the Premier League a couple of years ago.

Yes he's signed foreign players of course, some good some bad. I just get the feeling he'd go for experience of the league and British over a player without it, even if that player was doing great things in another league.

Dibling is a case of that I think, Moyes signing or not, as a lot think he wasn't. You're telling me you couldn't have got more quality for £42M?

But, since he signed for Everton, it looks like his soul has been crushed.

He's not a write off imo, I just think £42M this season could have been better spent.

We spent about the same on Beto, Barry, Dibling and Rohl, assuming we don't get relegated!

Our recruitment is a long standing disaster and Moyes is obsessed with big players. We rarely sign skilled players who can trap a ball, have football intelligence, or have any pace. Big, clumsy and slow but over 6' 4” and you'll do for us!

Mike, Kinnear sanctioned buying Barry. Think about that. It's frightening. He is still a massive influence on signings. Don't think about that. But hey-ho no probs, we have all this diametrics and stats stuff now so we will be just sound as a pound.

Utter unmitigated rubbish from the 'new ownership's' excruciating fan-boy.

This would be the board who stopped coming to home matches long before we heard of TFG?

Apparently TFG and MAGA Trumpite Dan the man invented penicillin and built the Great Wall of China.

I mentioned Ben White and Donyell Malen as both would likely be loan deals if they did move this month. There are short-term options out there that could be the difference between the club finishing top 8 or 15th this season.

It seems common sense to explore this type of deal to help the manager short-term, so hopefully our world class recruitment and analytics team are on it.

Thelwell was operating under huge financial constraints, but he did also look for investment in potential. Garner and O'Brien were in that category. Of course, he signed some duds.

Tony mentioned Kudus. Deal agreed with Ajax only for Man Utd to offer £84M for Anthony which meant they wanted to keep him as squad cover.

A deal was agreed with Newcaste to sign Yakuba Minteh, and the player wanted to come with Calvert-Lewin going in the opposite direction. It fell apart when Dominic's agent (since sacked) told him to turn them down as they wouldn't offer £150k as week!

Minteh in particular would have been a brilliant fit for us. Direct and pacey winger.

He's had decent skillful players. You're just going to need patience. Bowen, Kudus, Baines, Osman, Pienaar, Arteta, Gana, Dewesbury Hall, Ndiaye are hardly massive & they all got/get significant game time over bigger players, nor were the targets he went in for and couldn't get over the line in Kubo, Fofana Conceição. The Portuguese was 5ft 5, Kubo 5ft 8, Fofana 5ft 7.

The issue is we can identify players (Yes, I am sure that could be better, & that's why theyre putting in a whole new recruitment department. ) - but players don't want to come. Dibling was at least 4th choice as a right winger target, perhaps lower. Barry 3rd or 4th?

When youre going down your list of choices it is going to be an issue - less scouting, less quality, less certainty, less value. Thats why theyre lower down the list.

This isn't just a Moyes issue. 5 time European Cup winner Anchelotti missed out on targets Godfrey vs Gabriel, Zouma, Tomori being just one.

Semenyo, Gallagher, Guehi would all be great signings for us. But there's no chance they'd come.

Saudi, Germany, Champions League Clubs, are all a more attractive proposition than Everton currently. Only regular European football and good league positions will change the minds of players unless we are throwing money around.

Players don't want to come to Everton but elite clubs like Bournemouth, Brighton and Brentford don't seem to have the same problem!

We are all different but I would sooner live in Brighton or Bournemouth. Brentford would not be for me but London is an attraction for young men.

For every Fellaini and Soucek, there's a Bowen and Pienaar.
He prefers big forwards. He would have asked the in situ Summer transfer committee for a big ‘outlet' forward. They got him a young ‘with potential' Barry. Not quite what he had in mind.

He would have asked for tricky wide men. They got him Grealish and a young ‘with potential' Dibling. The latter not quite what he had in mind.

Moyes has a certain type of player in mind for each position, some big, some skilful, but whilst he'll take the odd punt (Stones, Cahill) they would generally be low value, low risk, Branthwaite-like. Not using up most of his transfer budget.

The TFG transfer committee will address his player type wishes but want to buy potential with future value. That's why I think we're seeing what we're seeing.

I'm not against the potential, provided the transfer committee know what they're doing and get it right more often than wrong.

I think £35M should buy you more than potential; I think £8M (Aznou) gets you potential. I think you need a balance of experience and potential. Did we get this balance right in the Summer?

I think Moyes would say not, he would have liked some potential but more experience at this stage in our improvement plan.

Most fans don't want to hear of reasons why we can't crack the Top 6. I post some doom posts from time to time myself; most of the regulars come on here for a chat and want cheering up -- not reminded of the problems we have.

I'm not crtiticising your post, Ian, what you say is spot on. It's more an apology for some of my doom and gloom past posts.

I mentioned the “5-centimetre rule“ on another thread.

What's happened to it, or does it just apply to those loveable reds?

I would have liked to see what Thelwell could have done with a better budget; he did bring Ndiaye, Garner, Tarkowski on a free. Ndiaye looks like his best by a mile. He did well getting rid of the players on huge salaries too.

I don't go for this argument that certain players are Moyes buys, others the board or technical team. If they are not working together on this, then they are working against each other and the best interest of the club. Which benefits no one.

Moyes may be in a stronger position now if others were pushing for Dibling while he wanted more experience; similarly with Aznou. He can now point to the levels of performance and argue that it's not right to invest so much now in a longer-term transfer when we need quality to affect games now.

Moyes will be saying "Why can't we get this guy, or that guy?" Some may just not fancy it, others move for money, European football etc. He knows the level of player needed to improve each department; it's down to others to get them.