General Forum Postbox #1

From an outsider looking in, I don't know if this can be posted, but Farage, Trump's buddy who fooled you with Brexit, as an MEP!

He was given a £5M backhander, that he didn't declare, but now he's the new saviour??

Reform in.

What benefit will Reform getting in be to you, Paul?

Paul -- not in my local council they aren't, I am very glad to say.

If Farage is our next Prime Minister, I will definitely be looking at leaving the country.

John, I won't say.

I will be called racist.

You didn't have to, Paul.
I knew.

Google 'Kent Care Homes, Farage, Migrants' to see the leader in his finest hypocrisy.

John.

I don't really trust any MP. They are all bloody crooks.

Me too, Andy, with one or two exceptions.

I didn't vote in the last General Election. No party represents my views.

Paul, you support a man who was given £5M by a supporter, and didn’t declare it.

Is he not compromised? Unbelievable!

Christy.

Like I've said. All MPs are crooks.

Doesn't matter who wins.

Paul, it matters for the future of your country.

I'm just mystified.

Let me demystify it for you Christy.

He was given £5M by a supporter to pay for the security he needs, to prevent left wing nutters from visiting violence upon him, and which the government refuses to pay.

The shame is in the latter. They are in denial about what a minority of their supporters are willing to do.

Mark -- there are many right-wing nutters as well (ever heard of Jo Cox?) to whom Farage and his dog-whistle politics appeals. That is the real shame of what is an increasingly divided country.

It's not been the same since Cameron put party before country with his misguided Brexit referendum. Just an opinion!

Christy,

I must assume from the tone of your posts that you don't like Nigel? No surprise there, he does seem to be a very Marmite type who people either love or hate.

And confirmation bias being what it is, this £5M donation that occurred before he was an MP, and therefore did not have to be declared, is either proof of abject scummery, or reasonable cost for security he has been denied by the British Government -- take your pick.

Perhaps you prefer instead the lame / dead duck we currently have in charge? What a shitfest. He should have resigned over the Mandelson business, just utterly shameful that his party was whipped into shape to back him over that. Partygate that brought down Boris pales into total insignificance in comparison.

But the centre-right do have a very clear problem in this country now, thanks to Nigel and his ilk. The division between Tories and Reform will just allow Labour and the Greens to take us down a very very dangerous road if they don't sort themselves out.

Michael #14

What I find unbelievable is that he never made parliament until 2024! Himself and Boris were the main Brexit campaigners, and is it not total hypocrisy that he's going to take his MEP pension next year, for a man who's anti-European?

Michael #14

The rules are that donations made within the 12 months prior to someone becoming an MP should be declared. The donation was made less than 12 months before Farage was elected.

Also, Michael,

Some posts are appearing as "recent posts" on the main page but are not appearing on the actual thread.

This seems to have happened with the post from Christy you are responding to (#14) and two of Mark Steers (?) posts on another thread or maybe it was two different threads.

If someone could form a new party and take the best 25% each out of all the current parties, I still think we would be fucked.

Common sense, which should always be one of our most important values, seems to be rapidly diminishing, and when you lose common sense, my own view is that you are in danger of losing everything.

I absolutely detest the current Prime Minister, and was glad he didn't resign over Mandelson, because I wanted him to be humiliated in the local elections, and be forced to leave with his tail between his legs, (instead of up Macron's arse - although it might just be the other way around).

But, like a woman scorned, he's going to have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, away from Number 10 Downing Street.

Brendan,

Apparently he's saying it was a personal donation, not a politcal donation, and the rules are different?

Anyway, it's going to be investigated now, presumably by a Labour committee, so we'll see how balanced their judgement is.

Christy,

If he served as an MEP and is entitled to an MEP pension, I can't see a problem with that. Doing his bit to bring back to this country just a very small part of the billions and billions we paid for the privilege of being part of the bureaucratic nightmare that is the EU.

And what does Starmer want to do? Get back into bed with them even further, and give them more and more billions we do just not have as a nation.

Yes, Michael #18,

But the guidance offered to MPs is that if there is any room for doubt... declare.

I mean if Farage had declared... there still would have been a political storm but he'd have been in a much stronger position. It's either at least serious misjudgement or arrogance... neither is a good look.

And no, it won't be investigated by a Labour committee.

Jeez Michael... let's all just make stuff up.

You caught me, Brendan.

Although it seems that loyal Starmerite, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, had a substantial role in the appointment of Daniel Greenberg as the parliamentary standards commissioner, so I'll reserve judgment and see what he comes up with.

Tony #17

I obviously have no skin in the game because I can't vote for any of the main UK parties but I really don't get the distaste for Starmer.

Okay he's a technocrat, a bit of a cold fish, not an inspiring orator and perhaps the opposite of a populist... the latter no bad thing in my opinion.

But Farite and Badenough are better options?

Ed Davey? I think I behave more sensibly around my grandchildren than he does around the electorate? Perhaps my grand kids are missing out?

The Green guy has apologised more in the last 12 months than I have in 45 years of marriage.

Michael,

Is political debate OK tonight?

Just checking as you edited one of my posts yesterday

Michael #20

Given the amount of money involved I doubt very much Lindsay Hoyle will make a determination.

If he feels it is serious/sensitive enough he can kick it upstairs to, I can't remember the name, a "committee" made up of all parties and I think lay members.

I'd be very surprised if he doesn't take that course.

Time and place, John.

Then was the time... but was this the place?

Brendan,

I think it's just down to Daniel Greenberg as the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards.

I was trying to make it political but he's supposed to be independent and of course above reproach!

Seems he investigates, then reports to the Committee on Standards. And there's a bunch of Labourites on there... so I wasn't that far off!!!

No worries, Michael, just so I know.
I enjoy a bit of politics now and again.

Don't get sick and don't get old springs to mind here.

No Michael #25

I don't follow names in British politics anymore but my comment #23 stands and if you are correct... Daniel Greenberg will be guy playing "pass the parcel"

Brendan #16, that glitch happens daily, it seems to be when the editors or tech are tinkering with the site. Or possibly some posters are being vetted first?

Another one is that under Recent Comments (when any actually appear, another glitch?) tapping on a comment (e.g. for this thread) returns a 404 error message. Doesn't happen on all posts and tapping Recent Comments (when any appear) produces a list of comments which do work when tapped.

Edit: the edit button is appearing in the right position!

Edit: but only in this thread, not on others.

Money can’t buy you Stones, but £5 million buys you Farage.

What does anyone think of Moyes?

I look around the western world and see it crumbling. The greedy people have taken almost complete control. The gains achieved by the ordinary working folk achieved since the end of the second world war are being systematically eroded. Working conditions, pay, cost of housing and living etc.

My political leanings have always been socialist but in recent years I have found it difficult to vote for charlatans “Champagne socialists” and have voted accordingly. Here in Australia, we are seeing a move to the right which concerns me. Two recent red flags (not the socialist variety) have caught my attention.

Jenna Rhinehart the Australian mining billionairess took Pauline Hansen (leader of One Nation) to Donald Trumps halloween party. Then she made Hansen a “gift” of a $1.5M dollar plane and pilot services.

Meanwhile China, the real socialists, are giving the Western world a boxing lesson on all fronts. Mao Tse Tung said in a speech given in 1957 the following:-

“ It is an arduous task to ensure a better life for the several hundred million people of China and to build our economically and culturally backward country into a prosperous and powerful one with a high level of culture. And it is precisely in order to be able to shoulder this task more competently and work better together with all non-Party people who are actuated by high ideals and determined to institute reforms that we must conduct rectification movements both now and in the future, and constantly rid ourselves of whatever is wrong.”

Sixty five years later the World Bank filed this report:-

https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/lifting-800-million-people-out-of-poverty-new-report-looks-at-lessons-from-china-s-experience.

I am awakening from my political slumber of the past decade.

Paul #30, he'd make a great Prime Minister. Maybe the Scottish PM is where his heart would be though.

404 page not found error on that link Laurie.

Eric # 33 - try this:-
Link

Brendan@21, where do I start with Sir Kier?

Far right thugs, far right thugs... surely such an intelligent man can see that nobody has ever driven so many people to the right, and then, when the racist card comes out, surely he must know that this has created so much division, and yet his favourite phrase is diversity.

Farage I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw. I haven't got a clue about the liberals, and as for the Green Party, then at least Screaming Lord Sutch was only taking the piss with his Monster Raving Loony Party.

It doesn't surprise me that you don't mind Starmer though, Brendan, because like your old mate Blue Bill, he's done a lot of damage and hasn't got the decency to leave.

If we have a leadership election now, it will throw the party into utter chaos, says Sir Kier. Absolutely incredible and completely unbelievable words, coming from a man whose party got absolutely obliterated all over the country last week.

Get Nige in.

He'll get shut of dem.

Michael, I think it’s more enjoyable going back to discuss Everton FC, and my fault for going offstream!

Farage is a charlatan, a snake oil salesman. Take the great Brexit experiment: we'll take control of our borders, we'll strike new trade deals, we'll increase spending in the NHS. Lies.

The economy has shrunk by 4% post Brexit, as every sensible economist predicted. Immigration has increased post Brexit. The millions promised to fund the NHS have not materialised post Brexit.

Farage's response, they didn't implement Brexit properly! Not my fault, guvnor.

Open your eyes, the guy is the very embodiment of the right-wing establishment. Fortunately the £5m bung he received before he stood as an MP may well find him out this time.

All politicians are not crooks, that's a message the right wing media wants you to believe to serve their agenda. Read your history, politics can be a massive force for good.

Currently the UK is at a crossroads, moving from a two-party system to a five-party system. If progressive politicians can unify beyond party colours, the self-serving right will continue to be kept at bay.

Mark @ 12, “He was given £5M by a supporter to pay for the security he needs, to prevent left wing nutters from visiting violence upon him, and which the government refuses to pay.”

Reported by Sky today: “Reform UK leader Nigel Farage bought a £1.4M property in cash shortly after receiving a £5M personal gift from billionaire donor Christopher Harborne.”

Oh dear.

Jimmy @38,

I'm no economist but I understand that GDP (total or per capita) is usually taken to be a good measure of the economy... would you agree?

So, if there has indeed been a 4% hit to the economy post-Brexit, could I reasonably expect to see that in the numbers at this point? After all, it's been more than 6 years since we gained our freedom from the tyranny of the EU. And more than 10 years since the referendum. But why don't you choose the baseline?

Brexit actually caused a 6-8% decline in UK GDP.

I believe you lived in the US Michael, so here is the analysis from the Federal Reserve.

Lessons from Brexit on the Effects of Trade Disintegration

While I understand why people voted for Brexit -- we entered a trading bloc and it morphed into federalism. But, Brexit has impoverished the country for a generation; it has not delivered enough benefits to justify the decision.

The worst political decision in a generation, Steve.

Lies, lies, and more lies from the Tory Party saw it through.

Thanks for that, Steve.

I only skimmed it because it seemed to put a lot of emphasis on the years before Brexit had even been implemented.

I looked for the crucial graph of GDP... not there. Instead, GDP Growth Forecasts. What the fuck? Why not show the real GDP numbers, assuming such things actually exist?

There is, however, this interesting line buried in the Appendix:

GDP Growth, 2017-2025... UK 0.41% USA 1.41% AFE 0.4%

AFE includes Canada and the euro area and is weighted using GDP.

Discounting the comparison to the US, which is verging on the irrelevant, it looks like the UK growth exceeds that of Canada and the euro area. How can that be possible?

John,

Lies, lies, and more lies from the Tory Party saw it through.

I'm not sure that's really true, is it, John? Firstly, they all lied -- that's what politicians do... especially if they think it will get your vote. And weren't many of the Tories against the whole thing? It thought it was UKIP?

But on the other hand, it's deeply insulting to the majority that voted for Brexit. It implies they'd been duped. That's astonishing if you think about it.

Next, you'll tell me all these former Labour voters who turned on Starmer last week have been lied to and duped. By Kemi and Nigel, no doubt. Are you really going to give them that much credit?

A result of a Tory leadership battle, Michael. Johnson promised to take us out of the EU in his leadership campaigning.
Ukip had one sitting MP in 2016, you thought incorrectly.

Did you see any other political parties with slogans of "WE WILL GIVE THE NHS £350 MILLION PER WEEK WITH THE MONEY SAVED AFTER BREXIT"?

Thanks Laurie #34. That works. 👍

John,

Pretty poor memory there, John. No wonder you're confused. The Leave Bus slogan actually said "We send the EU £350 million a week, let's fund our NHS instead". Not quite what you wrote... and please stop using capital letters. You're not Donald Trump!

David Cameron was a Remainer. So any lies from him must have been toward remaining, not leaving.

Teresa May was a Remainer and oversaw total inaction and obfuscation by MPs, the great majority of whom were remainers determined to defeat Brexit.

Along came Boris to finally do the country's bidding, which he eventually did despite the opposition of many MPs. But then of course they turned on him over the utter nonsense that was 'partygate'.

It's a rigged game. We don't get to vote our way out of this mess.

Who in their right mind would trust £5M Farage to stick to whatever he promises in a manifesto? It'll be Trump 2.0 all over again.

And Starmer, eeesh. He's a company man. The Czechs had him on a list as a suspected MI5 agent 40 years ago, and if you look at his career trajectory, there is definitely something funny going on.

How does such a charmless man rise to the top of two key public organisations so quickly? He's also a member of the Trilateral Commission, so neck deep with the billionaire class. And all his actions tell you this.

His endeavours to get Epstein lackey Mandy a key position. Remember Covid, we'd still be locked down if it was down to him. And he still can't tell you what a woman is. Clown. Get him off the stage.

The NHS agenda was pushed by Tory MPs, Michael.

I'm definitely not DJT. Are you? You sound like a Tory voter?

Iain Duncan Smith backtracks on leave side's £350m NHS claim

There you go, Michael. The solitary sitting UKIP MP you thought ran the Brexit campaign was not available for comment.

The idea that Brexit was anything but an attempted Tory power grab is bonkers.

Farage is now claiming his £5M was a gift for all of his hard work around Brexit and the Electoral Commission has no business looking into it. Very Trumpian.

He's saying the £1.4M house story is fake news from the establishment media. Again, where have we heard that line before???

So as I understand it, £20B (= £350M per week) was the UK's gross contribution to the EU.

If you apply Maggie Thatcher's negotiated rebate and the average value of funding back from the EU, the number is around half that, or £10B per year. For the privilege of following all those wonderful EU rules.

That's money we're no longer forking out directly to Brussels

Surely that's a good thing for the UK??? -- At least until Starmer and his Labour mob renege on the British people and put us right back in there....

Andrew...

The idea that Brexit was anything but an attempted Tory power grab is bonkers.

That makes no sense at all. Cameron was a remainer. He already had power. He gave it up after his side lost the referendum.

I used to come from St Helens.
Not anymore.
If anyone in future asks me where I’m from I’ll tell them near Liverpool.
Then hopefully they won’t assume I’m a fascist.

From the minute Starmer was elected, he had that smug air of authority that usually comes from somebody who believes they're untouchable.

He was in Southport, laying wreaths very quickly after the murder of those innocent little children, and the first thought in my head was that he reminded me of Margaret Thatcher going to Hillsborough.

Hide the truth, it's very important they try and hide the truth, because the bad people and the incompetent people connected to authority need to be protected at all costs.

I thought the main reason why people voted for Brexit was because of immigration and I believe this was always going to be a key decision in how a lot of people voted all over the country last week.

They all can't be racist, and nothing can be more dangerous than giving people a tag just because they are completely fed up with the way the country is being run, and have decided to vote for a right-wing party.

Sometimes you have to look at things deeper and reflect on the issues you're getting wrong, but Starmer doesn't seem to care about the division he has created in his own party because, at the end of the day, it's all about diversity and not wielding to those far-right thugs, which is also creating a lot more division in our country.

Starmer does not represent any politics I believe in. For that reason, this lifelong Labour voter did not vote in the last General Election. Tory lite, Mr Starmer, and very proud of it.

Reform are doing well for one reason only, Tony. You mentioned it in your post.

You've lit a fuse now, Michael.

For what it's worth, I think all politicians are in it for the power and money. Gone are the Bessie Braddocks of this world who got into politics for a cause and principles.

The only intelligent person who would have made a decent PM was blocked from being an MP. Just count yourselves lucky you're not in the USA.

Michael, Cameron wasn't the only Tory in the game.

The idea that it was for the people is just nonsense. It was all about Jacob Rees-Mogg and Co deregulating everything including offshore tax regulations.

Anyone being accused of racism as a result of voting to get the migrants out should tell the accuser that they feel the same way about the Ukrainian migrants. They also want them out.

My understanding of Brexit is, Cameron was indeed against it.

However, he put it up to a vote in the hope that it would shut Bojo and Farage up. Counting votes was obviously not one of his political strengths.

According to a lot of reports I have seen from that place that allegedly peddles a lot of fake news and propaganda, Andy Burnham doesn't come out with much credibility with regards the grooming gangs.

Why do you think Reform are doing well, John, because of their immigration policies or because a lot of people who voted for them are racist?

I'm not sure, with news coming in that Andy Burnham is going to be contesting the seat in Makerfield after Josh Simmons stood down.

And Sir Kier isn't going to try and block him this time around!

Because of their immigration policies Tony.

Liverpudlian artist whose paintings were given to the Pope sues Everton over the use of his image of St Domingo's Church in the Goodison Timeline.

Bit dubious that one, Gerry. Can't imagine an Evertonian would be anything but overjoyed to see his work so displayed.

I think he might be a Kopite? Then again, looking at the dates, it's the cheesy sort of trick Kenwright would happily pull and expect not to have to pay for.

Tony #60,

Bit of both?

John #55,

It wasn't Starmer that turmed Labour into Tory Lite, you have to thank Tony Blair for that.

MK (44): But on the other hand, it's deeply insulting to the majority that voted for Brexit. It implies they'd been duped. That's astonishing if you think about it.

An unknowable – but highly significant – proportion of ‘leave’ voters had only one thing uppermost in their minds – ‘them’, the ‘immigrants’ – with more often than not somewhat sketchy senses of the wider issues of government and the economy.

I was renting a flat in Islington – 75% remain - on the day of the vote and turned on Radio 4 after a few hours kip and the first thing I heard was an interview with Paul from Portsmouth who was asked why he voted to leave: (paraphrasing) ‘ … it’s the immigrants innit [that was the only reason Paul] I’ve had enough of being bossed around by Amsterdam’.

There was absolutely no chance of Paul and his fellow hordes up and down the country – sadly, I know a few – being ‘duped’. They got exactly what they wanted for better or for worse. I imagine that Paul is even more irate today than he was in 2016.

MK (47): ‘Along came Boris to finally do the country's bidding’

Wrong MK. The clown did not ‘do the country’s bidding’. Unless you believe that 51.89% of a country is the country (or 17,410,742 out of 33,551,983).

Your comment on ‘partygate’ is just plain wrong.

He's on a par with Thatcher for me, Eric.

Agree with all of that post, Paul.

The Blue Wall in the North East fell for it big time. Tories thanked them for their support and contributed to the local industry closing down.

With the right leadership JC that blue wall can crumble.

I have a really close mate at Durham University, very active in Labour circles up there, who tells me all the time that many in those old pit villages and small towns who voted Tory for the first time suffered badly under the blustering baboon and regret what they did.

But the party needs leadership and it aint Keir Starmer or the former health minister who was so despicable in his attitudes towards doctors -- 'juvenile delinquents'.

Farage promptly took that 5 million and paid 1.4 million cash for a house, he's as bad as any of them, when he hasn't got his tongue wedged firmly up Trumps Jaxy he's standing on beaches screaming about boats, he does fuckall for his constituency of Clacton, turns up when he can be arsed at Parliament, now we find out the 5 million was a gift for Brexit ffs, where is my milkshake!!!

We may soon have a Toffee as Prime Minister.

Given the depression hanging over the UK, he might be able to tune into the national mood after supporting Everton over the last 30 years.

Tony @ I agree that people who vote to reduce immigration are not all racist.

Just some of them - the ignorant, the prejudiced, the ill-educated, the haters who want to externalize their own life failures on an easy identifiable target.

The economic problems of this country did not result from immigration. They were caused by the 2008 Global Banking Crisis, Austerity, Brexit, Covid, the Russian-Ukraine War and now the Energy Crisis due to the Iran war. These are seismic shocks to the UK economy - the national debt was 40.5% of GDP in 2008 and 101% in 2025. All politicians know this but they lie to the voters; they knowingly focus on divisive issues that prey on people's fears.

Last week my wife was walking through Euston to catch a train to Liverpool. She was told to get back to her own country by a woman, a stranger. My wife is British but not Caucasian, and therefore for the likes of this ignorant woman she is alien.

That is why I despise "Five Million Farage" and Reform as they give racists and bigots an umbrella of legitimacy. They are deliberative about it and adopt division as a strategy, as does Trump.

Ultimately, nothing is more guaranteed to shred the values that really make Britain great. Tolerance, fairness and decency.

Steve,

The have nearly fuck all are being encouraged to look down their noses at the real have fuck alls.

He made a statement recently threatening Black British along the lines of "just because you were born here doesn't make you British."

I know intelligent people who are falling for this.

John,

I agree completely, it is scary.

When you get into a situation where Farage and Reform are defining who is and is not British, then we are going down a very dangerous road.

By the way, Farage is a French Huguenot name. His ancestors came into Britain under a wave of immigration by French Protestants. It will be interesting where the date threshold of "truly British" falls.

Maybe 1066, that way we can send all those French immigrant fuckers like Nigel back to where they came from.

I take your point Steve, that woman had no right to say anything to your partner, but I disagree that every person who voted for reform is either racist or ignorant though.

Savage NHS budget cuts, year on year, since 2010 from the tories.
A seriously underfunded NHS but you can't get an appointment because of dem.

Your being played if your voting Reform.

Tony,

If it's not too personal.
What benefits do you think Reform will give to the working class man if they are elected?

John.

Really saying they've never been in power yet you seem to know a lot of how they'll govern?

If you don't try something new nobody including you will ever know??

What benefits to your life would you expect from Reform if elected Terry ?

Terry - 79 - name and describe in decent detail one other Reform policy than 'keep them out'? There is no wider agenda other than platitudes and racism. Erm, govern, we do, consult their broken promises in local government.

Terry, what's your view of immigrants and the impacts they have made on our country?

Just a word on the 'ignorant' whom are lumped in with the racists supporting Reform.

Ignorance is not always a fault, it is a lot to do with what the biggest mouth pieces and those who pay them are saying. If we find someone Ignorant it is our job to educate them.

The vast majority of Reform supporters are ignorant but still fundamentally decent people. At the moment, the truth is fighting a losing battle and it needs to change.

If you see what I wrote earlier in this thread John, you will see that I don't like Farage.

I don't like him because I don't trust him, and for that reason I haven't studied the political policies of Reform.

That won't stop plenty of working class people voting for him though, especially now when it's clear that this Labour Party, or the one before when Tony Blair, was Prime Minister, don't or didn't represent the working classes.

Racism is everywhere, but anyone who votes Reform is more likely to get tagged with being a racist, or a facist. Speaking to quite a few intelligent people that I know, who have told me they intend to vote Reform, I don't believe they are either.

I don't believe they are ignorant either, which is another word that is thrown about like confetti these days if you happen to have a different point of view.

I have spoken to quite a few immigrants who have worked hard and made a good life for themselves in England, who have told me they don't believe in the current immigration policies, and if I'm being honest, I find myself agreeing with them.

Andrew, I think a lot of the people who you have termed decent, but ignorant, would probably say the same thing about you mate, but I’m sure many of them would say that if you claim they’re ignorant, they would say you’re naive.

I grew up as a pretty fanatical anti-racist. It was part of my lefty identity as a scouser. And what's not to like? Looking down your nose at someone cos they have different coloured skin, is there anything more foul and lame?

But in 2026, if you're focussing on 'racism', I think you're looking at things through the wrong lens, if you're trying to diagnose what's gone wrong with the UK.

The irony for me is that, at the time when you did see some pretty nasty instances of racism 40 years ago, there was not much coverage of it. Now, when such behaviour has to my mind been reduced exponentially, it's everywhere.

Why is that? Why are we scolded constantly across all platforms for our inherent racism, at a time when we've never been more open?
Well, I think there's a reason for that. I think there has been a plan decades in the preparation to replace the populations of the west, to change it to a multi ethnic mix. Effectively to turn Liverpool into London.

But if you're going to do that, people are going to object. And I think you preempt these objections by making any noticing of massive increases in numbers (under Boris, a million a year) a sign of someone's inherent racism.

And by-and-large it's worked. People are reluctant to object to this massive changing in our country over the last generation. Nobody want's to be called a racist and so they keep quiet.

And why would our leaders want this change? Cos they want to control us more effectively, and divide and rule is one of the most effective means of doing that.

How easy is it to stir up a controversy over race in the UK in 2026? And what are the effects? More control, more 'be quiet and know your place'. It's a strategy, and it's been v effective.

The net effect is that we're losing our culture. Just as in Ireland, nobody now knows what it means to be Irish. They did a generation ago, but now being Irish can be granted to somebody who arrived yesterday.

And it's just the sheer numbers. It's not cos people from abroad are somehow defective and are pulling down the culture. It's just the numbers.

I think one in three people in Dublin weren't born in Ireland. And that's just in 10 years. So imagine what that does to Dublin if the next 20 years continues like the last 10. It's gone.

So I think it was deliberate, and we've been played. But it's probably too late now. The plan has been completed. We are now more New York than New Brighton.

There will of course be some upsides to it, but I can't help thinking it's a shame we've lost what we had. Just as I would feel the same if Japan or China or India experienced the same overhaul.

Tony @ 76, not all.

Just some of them.

I have spoken to quite a few immigrants who have worked hard and made a good life for themselves in England, who have told me they don't believe in the current immigration policies.

What nationality were they, Tony?

Anyone who judges a man's character by the colour of his skin is a lost cause.

Exactly Steve, but just like Brexit, Farage's stance on immigration is probably going to get them more votes than any of the other policies that they might have.

I don't even believe he will be able to follow through on what he promises either.

He hasn't got any policies, Tony, except the blatant lie: "Vote us in and we will get them all out inside 12 months."\

A thorough blagger and scousers are being blagged.

God help us if Farage's lot ever get in government.

NHS would be privatised. Public services decimated. Etc etc. Anyone but Reform.

Farage has already mentioned paying for doctor's appointments, Les.

The waiting lists will go down then.

Terry Downes got off sharpish then. Spain, Germany, Italy all had their very large brushes with fascism. These Isles and Liverpool have, thus far, always proudly chased them off and hopefully this will continue. I don't think Reform actually want to govern, they only exist to disrupt and divide.

We need government to tax asset wealth properly. We need them to embrace nuclear power. We need them to renationalise utilities and transport.

Starmer is totally rubbing people up the wrong way though imo, John, with phrases like “we are fighting for our country’s soul”

Anyone who knows London, only had to see a picture of the last Unite the Country, march, to know that the mainstream media, were all telling dirty rotten lies, reporting that there was possibly as many as 100.000 people in attendance, (times ten) with my own view being that the more lies you tell, the more division that is created?

It’s on both sides, exactly, so the lies and the half truths, keep getting peddled on both sides and this just continues to create more and more division in our society.

The media have got a hell of a lot to answer for, especially when so many people don’t do a little bit of their own research and often take the words of a liar as gospel.

Kurdish, Iranian and Irish, John.

I don't trust Starmer as far as I could throw him Tony.
A snide imo.
That's a stupid,inflammatory statement.

Similar with Farage.
There are very few politicians I would place trust in nowadays mate.

Carrying on the Iranian, was telling me he hasn’t been able to speak to his family for months, because of the internet blackouts, and hasn’t been home for twenty years because of the current regime.

His mate was telling me last year (well before anything happened in Iran) that the biggest problem in the Middle East, is the Iranian regime, (I was telling them how much respect I had for their footballers, who made a stand at the last World Cup) but my son who lives in the UAE, and is very well read, has told me he thinks the biggest problem is Israel.

Anyway these Iranians, who hate their own regime can also see right through Trump, (he’s all about money) but they have said they believe the current immigration policies don’t make a lot of sense, and it’s also creating problems for a lot of people who have come to these shores legally.

Tony - 83

I have no problem being called ignorant, we are all ignorant to a certain extent. I am ignorant in plenty of subjects.

You have admitted that you are ignorant of Reforms policies and you are by the mere fact you have not studied them.

I have studied a few of their policies recently and found a couple I liked.

Just trying to say that being ignorant should not be seen as an insult unless you make conscious decisions to choose to be ignorant by not researching why you believe what you do.

I don't see where naivety comes into it though.

So, Andrew, you like “ a couple of them “. Well that’s fine then is it ? What about all the others. Tens of them. God help us.

Tony.

Your right,the illegals will cause issues for the legals,everyone just tars them with the same brush.
The benefit costs survey last week show 15% of benefits goes to illegal migrants.Thats too big when you consider the need to look after people who are being told they have to work regardless of health situations.They are cutting benefits to suit.

My main issue is the way all that leads on to racism..
Nobody can deny that,after a period when it cooled down in this city over 40 or so years,it is getting bigger by the day,mainly due to the migrants.
The saddest part for me is a lot of Liverpool people are not behaving like scousers.

Andrew,

If it’s not too personal, can I ask which policies you liked?

Les - 97

No, it's not fine as I just read they changed their mind again on one of them!

You misunderstood me; I'm as likely to vote Reform as a worm is to wave at a bird. :)

John - 99 No problem,

Increasing the personal tax allowance to £20k for all workers.

Scrapping the 2 child benefit cap but Jenrick has reneged on this and Farage, true to his nature, has said for 'British' working families only!

I don't mind lifting the 40% threshold from £50k to £70k either, so long as it’s paid for by taxing the higher bands.

That's it. It's not going to make me eat sprouts or vote Reform.

Thanks Andrew

If it weren’t for immigration “youse” would all have accents like mine - wool!
Xxx

Tony.95

Your son is well read 👍

Many Reformers are actually ignorant about refugee law and many non-Reform voters too.

According to international law, do immigrants have to stay in the first 'safe' country they visit? No is the answer.

Why don't Arab countries take refugees? They do... for example Syria has nearly 500,000 Palestinian refugees largely living in poverty. Neighbouring countries have over 4.5 million Syrian refugees, also mostly living in poverty.

Lebanon has 1.5 million Syrian refugees and 500,000 Palestinian refugees, the largest number of refugees per capita in the world.

Jordan has nearly 2.5 million Palestinian refugees and nearly 500,000 Syrian refugees.

Our problem lies in the speed with which we deal with asylum seekers and refugees meaning many are holed up in camps and hotels giving the impression we are spending a fortune on benefits, iPads, phones and taxi fares and so on.

This is also largely untrue, any iPads, phones etc are supplied by charities while benefits is around £49.00 per week. (Those housed in hotels or where food and accommodation is provided get just £9.95 per week.)

We need to spend more money on clearing the back log of asylum seekers, deporting the ones found to be economic/ or illegal and helping the ones deemed to be in need.

Andrew, great post that, mate.

My thoughts exactly on the processing progress. You would think they wanted the migrants here given the inept manner they work in.

Andrew, I liked the way that post@96, was written mate, but I’m pretty sure that a lot of reform voters, would call you naive, after objecting to you calling them ignorant,

You have given me a perfect example of why I’m ignorant, but after listening to the views of others, even if you might have a case and be able to explain why you believe these people are ignorant, then I’m sure many of those people would simply say they think you’re being naive,

If things remained civil, I’m sure a very interesting debate would ensue!

I have always thought (even if I was only made aware of the Dublin treaty, a couple of years ago) that the Dublin Agreement’s, primary rule (but not law?) was that migrants must claim asylum in the first EU Country, that they enter Andrew.

It doesn’t appear to look like it is a law, that many countries, have taken that seriously in the last few years (bar maybe Poland) so have they decided to change it because of this?

The atrocities that are happening in Palestine, are absolutely horrendous and sickening John, but when these same sickening atrocities were happening in Syria, I don’t think it drew anywhere near the same type of attention in the media.

I see people marching for Palestine, on a regular basis, but I never ever saw one march or protest, when the people of Syria, were suffering so badly.

It’s obviously a very good thing that people are highlighting these atrocities, but when I read Andrew’s list, showing the amount of Syrian refugees, that have been displaced, which highlights just how badly these people were treated, it amazes me because this was something that went largely unnoticed by most of the British media, at the time.

Michael - your posts on Farage's £5m donation haven't stood the test of time well, have they? I see he is now saying it was a "reward" for 27 years of campaigning for Brexit and note that shortly after that donation he was able to spend £1.4m cash to purchase a house. Not exactly what he said the money was being used for originally is it? Farage - the man who gave us Brexit whilst ensuring that he, personally, had a European passport. Hypocritical doesn't even begin to cover it - just like the Billionaire donors to Reform who all live abroad and avoid paying their share of UK tax. Tossers the lot of them!

Really looking forward to the "King of the North" smacking Reform in their new back-yard in the byelection in Manchester in a few weeks time. The fight back begins here!

Tony #108

There's an obvious difference mate.

The Assad regime were brutal and acted as everyone expected them to.

Israel is a modern democracy and pretends to aspire to higher values than the Assad regime.

I think people believe the protests may have an impact on Israel. Protests against the Assad regime would simply have fallen on stoney ground.

It's happening in many places Tony, atrocities all over the world mate.

They should all be reported widely.

I think it’s clear that the protests are not having any impact whatsoever on the Israeli regime Brendan, but thanks for explaining something I hadn’t really considered, mate.

Tony #113

The protests aren't really designed to directly influence the Israeli regime but rather British government policy towards Israel.

But I would accept they ain't gaining much traction there either.

A lot of what we are discussing always takes me back to a line from “the little boy soldiers song” that was written by that great socialist Paul Weller:

We ruled the world - we killed and robbed - the fucking lot, but we don’t feel bad - because it was done underneath the flag of democracy!

We have elections and we vote - but forgive my ignorance, when I say there’s nothing democratic about so many of the laws that are frequently passed, once an election has been won.

Any one thinking that the labour party has moved too far to the right (as if) remember that under Miliband (Harrman) & Corbyn it was more or less un-electable.

People don't want 'extreme' Government, left or right, they want what they see as 'capable' government, Goldilocks Government, not too left, not too right.

After Thatcherism, which it's self was a reaction to too much Labour, came 'New Labour' which was a reaction to too much Thatcher, so on and so on through to Starmer.

Since Blair the Country has had to choose between watered down Labour or watered down Tory.

All this time since the 70s the world and the Country has been changing, sometimes slowly, sometimes very quickly and both parties have been unwilling or unable - sometimes both - to a) change with the times. b) incapable of being able to do anything about 'world events' outside their or anybody else's ability to control.

Like I said, people don't want 'extreme' Government they want capable government - whoever they voted for they got IN-cabable government.

For 30 (40, 50?)yrs they've tried all the various shades of 'the devil you know' giving Johnson and Starmer both (different sorts of) clowns big Majorities in hope of finding the elusive 'capable government'

Hence Farage. He has one thing in his favour, unlike the others - who...MacMillans 'Events dear boy, Events' notwithstanding...who always manage to fuck it up, he has a perfect record.

He hasn't fucked up yet.

Peter #109,

"Who all live abroad and avoid paying their share of UK tax."

People, like myself, who live abroad don't have any liability to pay UK tax so there is no avoidance.

Andrew #105 "According to international law, do immigrants have to stay in the first 'safe' country they visit? No is the answer."

And that's where I think the first problem lies. If I were just escaping war in my country, I would be happy to be safe in the first adjacent country I arrive. They are likely to share some of my ethnicity, language, culture etc.

So why would I think of leaving my family behind there to travel to the other side of Europe to illegally enter another country in a dangerous sea journey in a crowded rubber dinghy? A country that I have no cultural connection with and don't intend to assimilate in. And why wouldn't I consider stopping somewhere else on the way?

I don't blame the migrants / refugees directly, it's the scum that profit from their misery that need to be hunted down and shot, but I don't see that as being the focus of any political party, they all just focus on the exploited to score political points.

Andrew #105, what's the timeline of those refugee figures you state?

I was in Kuwait in 1987 and there were more Palestinians there than Kuwaitis, similarly in Jotdan around the same time. There were more Palestinians outside of Palestine than actually in the country. The difference being they were completely integrated into the societies and no outsider would know the difference being a similar culture. The locals could though and Palestnians (and Lebanese too) were treated as second class citizens in those countries.

Are they refugees or immigrants in your figures?

Eric - 118

I think a lot of migrants who come over on the boats could be economic and we need to process them quicker.

Depending on the reason they leave their home country for instance:

Palestine into Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, they did actually mostly stay in the adjacent country.

A lot of Syrians went to Lebanon which as you can imagine is overwhelmed with refugees and can't really take any more.

Afghanistan is different because the neighbouring countries can be quite inhospitable and themselves not equipped to handle refugees.

The UK is an Island and therefore we would take next to no refugees because we don't really have an adjacent country. (apart from Scotland and Wales!) Mind you having said that I am originally from the isle of Wight and 6 of us migrated to the mainland in a tiny Green mini in the late 60's that was quite a journey! :)

English is also widely spoken and many want to come here because of that reason, French and German not so.

Also it could be that they hear 'on the grapevine' that they get treated so well and are given houses, phones, food, money, free healthcare and great football on the red side of Merseyside all of which originates from anti immigration voices like Nigel and Rupert. (and of course most of which is untrue, especially the bit about great football from the red side of Merseyside)

Like you say it's a dangerous journey across the channel but I think most are told a story and they are then willing to pay the smugglers to get across. Can't really know for sure without being in that position.

Eric - 119

The figures I used are current figures taken from a search of official NGO estimates, They are refugees. I don't know so much about other countries but I have quite a few Palestinian friends and they all want to go home.

Kuwait took in a lot of Palestinians and they found work but as you say some were treated as second class citizens.

I must encourage everyone to watch 'Mo' it's a true story comedy by the Palestinian/American comedian Mohammed Amer about his travels from Palestine to Kuwait and then to the US. It takes a couple of episodes to get into but has some very funny and also heart wrenching moments.

Tony - 108

You are right about the difference in coverage regarding Israel and Syria, I think Brendan touched on the reasons why that could be. Israel is a 'beacon' of democracy so when they behave in the way they have and when we send them equipment to help them behave that way it sort of involves us more. I would hasten to say the it is only a few Knesset members who are responsible for their behaviour, but they hold the balance of power in Netanyahu's government, Smotrych, Ben Gvir et al.

I do vaguely remember marches for Syria so I checked and came up with one for the Kurds in Syria which 50,000 attended in London. (The Kurds, another set of people harshly treated and largely ignored by the west)

There was also a Don't bomb Syria march back in 2015 which drew fairly big numbers in London and at 20 locations around the country but nothing like the ones we get today. We had the Iraq war march too whihc was probably the biggest of them all. Not a lot of good they did unfortunately.

I hope today goes off without any trouble, there are idiots on both sides and I hope they don't meet.

Eric.

What cultural connections to Thailand do you have?

Andrew,

Spot on, it's definitely not all of the Knesset pushing the genocide.
Thats down to the likes of the two you mention and Co.
Two of them can't enter 113 countries without being arrested.

Andrew,

Spot on, it's definitely not all of the Knesset pushing the genocide.
Thats down to the likes of the two you mention and Co.
Two of them can't enter 113 countries without being arrested.

Andrew, a mate told me that a majority of the boat people are Vietnamese. They are sent over to work in the thriving marijuana industry in UK. They work a few years then turn themselves in and get deported, unless caught and prosecuted first.

On the NGO figures I'm trying to get at whether they include the historic Palestinians that have been in those countries for 40+ year. Similar to the Asian immigrants that were recruited to the UK in the 1960's. I wouldn't expect them to be included in the immigrant figures that are currently "the problem". But you never can tell where NGOs and politicians are concerned.

John #122, well to start with I didn't sneak across the border or arrive in a rowing boat in the middle of the night. I arrived with a valid visa legitimately issued by a Thai Embassy giving me the right to stay in the country. This included me having to prove I had the finances to support myself there.

When I was offered a job the company legally obtained a work permit for me and I paid income tax and national insurance contributions, well the company did, and that has been the case in every job I had there.

In my first year there I learned to read, write and speak Thai, things I don't do so well these days except for the reading.

I always try to respect the local culture in regards to temples, homes and general interaction with the people, something which distinguishes expats from the tourist hoardes that decend on the shores.

I've never been interested in becoming a Buddhist or spent time as a monk as some do, so not culturally assimilated in that way, but I usually attended the local temple festivals. And in my time there I've contributed to the monetary needs of a few "sick buffaloes"

But there's always one thing that makes me stand out as not a Thai and the Thais will never see me as anything other than a foreigner. Whereas when a friend took his Thai wife to England she asked me why there are so many Indians there and was shocked when I told her they're not Indians, they're English.

I personally think that there will be a lot of trouble today in London, Andrew.

The distorted figures from the last march, (it definitely looked a lot closer to a million people rather than one hundred thousand reported by most of the mainstream) show there wasn’t that many arrests, but Sir Kier, has deployed 4000 police onto the streets of London today.

With regards the Palestine Marches, I meant in the city of Liverpool, (which take place most Sundays) and referring to the day they take place which is mainly on a Sunday, this was switched to a Saturday, on the day there was a lot of trouble in Liverpool city centre, a couple of summers ago.

They march freely, but whenever there is a “unite the country march” they have to have a counter protest march on the same day, which happened that day in Liverpool, when the Antifa march, was allowed to go straight to the pier head, where people had gathered to have a peaceful demonstration over what had happened in Southport.

Anyway I’ve just been talking to my son, one of the few who is thirty years of age or under, who doesn’t like David Moyes. He said he was out last night and one of his Liverpudlian mates, who travels everywhere to watch his team play was going on about the derby, at Bramley Moore the other week.

His mate sounds fair, he had told my son, he was glad we were leaving Goodison, because he hated how hostile the Evertonians, always made it on derby day, and didn’t believe anyone, could create such a bear pit as bad as Goodison could be, anywhere.

He told my son, that when our goal got disallowed the other week, he suddenly got a big warm feeling inside and knew Liverpool, were going to beat us. My son obviously told him to fuck off, before asking him why he suddenly became so confident?

The answer he received, was that from standing in the away section, he had never witnessed such an incredible celebration when Everton scored, anywhere, while on his travels watching his team play over many years. He said it just felt like the goal getting disallowed, was like ripping out our soul.

I witnessed it myself, because sometimes my favourite celebration is just looking around the ground and taking in the complete pandemonium, and this is why I keep saying that Everton, can still be as great as anyone else, because of the unique support the team receives, when the fans are genuinely up for it💙

Eric,

I think they include the refugees from 1948 onwards including family who have since been born. It's hard to imagine being a refugee from a country that you have never been allowed to or it's almost impossible to go to or visit.

The camps in Syria and Lebanon range from tented camps to brick built albeit poorly constructed accommodation to resemble a small town.

Sabra and Shatila are good examples of the latter, don't google these places unless you have a strong stomach, the massacres dominate the images.

The Asians from Zimbabwe etc who came to the UK have been allowed to integrate and mostly aren't really bothered about going back. Palestinians are quite unique in that they really do want to go home. That may be partly the reason the host countries haven't been that active in encouraging integration.

Most of the current partly self inflicted problem are from Afghanistan and Syria I would guess and like you say Vietnamese for the gardening jobs.

Actually why Vietnamese? How did they become the preferred gardening recruits?

Eric.

If the migrants copied your example in our country would you be happy for them to stay?

During the "peaceful" protest by the right wing on The Strand Tony, didn't they attack the police?

Andrew #128, the Vietnamese are a very entrepreneurship (is that a word) nation. They're hardworking and have a will to succeed (unlike the Thais) and can spot an opportunity. Hence all the "nail parlours" in UK

John #129, there are a lot of immigrants that folliow the legal routes to migrate to England, but what needs to happen is a quick way to vet and remove the illegals, or even better, deter them from trying to enter.

But as I don't live in UK and have no intention to return I don't have any skin in the game as the Americans say. So if you're happy with the social and political situation that's fine with me.

They did John, and they done the same thing in the evening all the way along county rd. (mostly scally’s)

My point was it was a complete set-up, but once people lose control, they have lost the argument, especially when I refer to the lyrics of that Jam song I referenced earlier.

I have loved Thailand, since I first went there to watch Everton play Eric, but I’ve yet to visit Vietnam.

Visiting Vietnam, has always been in my plans especially to go to places like Halong Bay, but just like Thailand, I suspect the front face, is a lot friendlier than the back face, because they can be very aggressive those little fella’s?

Thanks Eric. I would hope they all have a choice and aren't just more victims. I wouldn't mind that job though. :) Of course with sick pay and double time on bank holidays!

Being honest Eric,I think it's hypocrisy.
You wanted to better your life,they want to better their lives.

Tony, the Viets can get offensive during Têt ;-) (you probably have to ask Dave about that one?)

I find them a lot more genuine than Thais. I remember you planned a trip to Ha Noi a couple of years ago but cancelled it?

You went to the match against Leicester at the National Stadium in Bangkok? I was there too.

Just divvys using it as a reason to kick off Tony.

One thing I have noticed in the Pro Palestine march's.
The big majority of the protestors are elderly ladies and younger women?

because they can be very aggressive those little fella’s?

Did you ever hire a jet ski off them Tony 😁

It was the same at that protest in the pier head John, with plenty of elderly people and families. The police definitely knew what they were doing, you only had to realise they had already put in place a dispersal order from 4 O’Clock, which was exactly the time the Antifa march, was being directed towards the pier head🙈

I watched Everton playing Man City, in Bangkok, Eric, but if I’m being honest I wish I’d stayed in Koh Samui, and went to the full moon party, which had been put back a few days because of the Big Buddha celebrations (I think)

I met a couple of English lads with a speedboat John, one of them had a Thai wife, so they could operate legally, and they knew a few scouse lads I know, who generally operate illegally!

To change the subject has anyone been up the Kyber Pass?

Just found myself down a rabbit hole looking at Afghanistan's borders, the pass looks beautiful and I have decide I'd like to go there now. 95% not going to happen but Google helped me find a few hotels and cafe's!

A Kiwi friend of mine travelled extensively through the middle east and Iran during the 90's, said the Iranians where the friendliest people he had ever met. If only the 'people' could run countries instead of politicians! :)

Madness, that decision, Tony. Almost encouraging confrontation.

They have a scam where they scratch the jetski and paint it over with water soluble paint. The sea wears the paint off, you get back and they point to a notice saying damage must be paid for!😄

I knew the scam and dipped a towel in the water and started to rub the jetski before we got on it. They all burst out laughing mate.

When you're brought up in certain environments, then one of the benefits is that some people are on the ball more than others, John.

I was in Abu Dhabi and they wouldn't let this little Arab kid, on one of the rides, saying he was too small. "Go and put some paper in his shoes," I said to his mum. She smiled and said, "I've already done that."

There's good people and bad people everywhere, most of whom just want to have a laugh and treat people with respect, definitely outnumbering the bad people, thankfully.

I've listened to a podcast by Tucker Carlson and he claims it is very hazardous and also a major smuggling route, Andrew.

I find podcasts hard so I never got through it, and when I was telling one of my mates about it, he said Carlson is just a right-wing agitator!

Divide and conquer, but definitely do your homework if you're thinking of going on that route, Andrew!

Better still, give that Kiwi a call -- the scenery in parts of New Zealand is simply wonderful!

100% Tony.
Get it where you can mate. Your dead right on the last paragraph. Tiny majority mess it up now and again.

I hear a regular shout "They're horrible, these young Liverpool kids". No, they are fukin not -- just a few divvies. Liverpool kids are great kids in the main.

John #135, then maybe they should go to Thailand, like I did, to see how successful they can become?

But if you're happy with the situation in UK as it is, then I'm happy for you.

Tony #143,

Tucker is right wing but he was always open to having left-wing and other views on his shows to debate with. That's the reason Fox cancelled him, they don't like perspective.

Andrew #40,

Just search for the movie, "Carry On Up The Khyber" -- it'll tell you all you need to know.

Their choice is the UK, Eric. Yours was Thailand.

Condescending and hypocritical.

So why can't they choose Thailand John?

I done a bit of research because my mate is completely left wing, hates Trump, and is also very well read, Eric.

I remember telling him Trump was going to win the last American election because, after reading The Guardian and watching the news on ITV just a couple of days before the American elections, I was convinced because of what I'd describe as completely fabricated news.

It was very clear (to me) that these very left-wing anti-Trump news channels were just reporting on their wishes rather than the actual truth. Every single thing they claimed was reported without any facts and, lo and behold, their wishes never materialised.

There's nothing worse than a liar in my book, and the sad thing about this modern era is that everything seems to be built on lies.

Sadly, your last para is right, Tony @150.

My fear is that behind all the politicians here, the USA and many places are a load of young special advisers brought on that hotbed of truth... social media.

If enough people believe a lie, then that is justification enough whether right or left wing. And as people moan about being disillusioned with politicians now, at the same time they often search for a post says what they want to be the truth. Whether it is or not doesn't matter.

As Winston Churchill once remarked, “A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.”\\\

Source? Amazingly quoted by a Reform local council candidate where I live! The world gets weirder!

You would have to ask them Eric

Fox News for the opposite right wing lies Tony.
Trump doesn't lie mate 😁

Fox News... soooo bad it's entertaining.

Let's start a protest march, Brendan.