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Hope Street

By Tony Marsh :  09/09/2007 :  Comments (219) :
Yesterday, I went along to the KEIOC meeting at the Casa on Hope Street not knowing what to expect. As the venue filled up, it was standing room only but it was badly organised and there was a rowdy element that nearly ended with fellow Evertonians coming to blows. Drunken Gobshites should keep away.

LCC leader Warren Bradley, Labour leader in Liverpool Joe Anderson, and a represenative from the Bestway group sat on the panel with the guys from KEIOC. Right from the off, Warren Bradley tore in to Kenwright and Wyness regarding the move to Kirkby. Bradley made comments such as the club is not for sale regardless of what Kenwright is telling you; the club refuse to sit down with LCC and discuss alternative sites for relocation; the club is refusing even to send out a worthwhile reply to any correspondence.

Apart from the Loop site, the LLC have offered Everton FC sites on Edge Lane and Long Lane in Liverpool but the club are not interested. Both plots of land are owned by the LCC and would qualify for funding from both the NWDC and European money which is flooding in to Liverpool at present. The "24/7 seeking investment" quote from Kenwright was met with howls of derision from both the crowd and the panel. Not so, said Bradley, Kenwright doesnt want to sell.

Bradley and Anderson, who are both season ticket holders at Everton, made the comment that this Kirkby deal was a way for Kieth Wyness to fill his pockets before he does a moonlight flit back to were he came from and I agree with them.

The Bestway guy said that the Loop site was deliverable; the HKO group, who are world leaders in stadium building, had conducted the survey and have said a 60,000 seater stadium is possible on that site. Why would they lie? That's what Kenwright and Wyness have been calling the Bestway group, said one of the crowd; they have been calling you liars. He was right as well.

Joe Anderson said the problem with the Loop site was not the size or location but the fact that no other form of development was possible for Bestway to benefit from the site. Anderson went on to say that other sites in Liverpool can be offered to Bestway to accomodate them but still the club refuse to sit down and disscuss the matter.

Bradley and Anderson said they are both now trying to get a meeting on with the club (Wyness has refused so far) and they are hopeful Kenwright will agree some time next week.

The land in Knowsley that Tescos and Everton are hoping to build the stadium and supermarket on doesn't actually belong to Knowlsey Bourough Council and is in fact still owned bt LCC so any major development will be dragged through the courts in order to prevent it.

The Liverpool Echo came in for some stick with Warren Bradley claiming that they are refusing to publish any articles he has sent in to them opposing the Kirkby move. Bradley and Anderson then said they are off down to Old Hall Street this week to get some answers.

Bradley was asked about the Reds building on Stanley Park to which he replied, "It wouldn't have happened had I been the council leader at the time." He then went on to criticize the Everton Board over the Kings Dock affair and said they had wasted our golden chance and they can't be trusted on a deal of this magnitude.

In the end it was quite obvious from what Bradley and Anderson were saying that both Kenwright and Wyness have been misleading the fans on all the major issues concerning this move. They both stand to make a packet out of this deal and it's the mug fans who will be left with a cheap and nasty half-empty stadium when it's all over. Tesco are giving £50k only towards this deal so what's that going to buy us in Stadium terms?

After the meeting finished, I went on a pub crawl around town and ended up in the Queens in Huyton. David Nugent was in there with his bird. He is against the Kirkby move. Throughout the day and the night I didn't manage to find a sinle Evertonian who voted Yes for this move or who actually wants it. WTF IS GOING ON?

36,000 ballot papers sent out and only 15,000 returned with ticks in the Yes box. Is that really a majority? Is that really enough to of a mandate to throw away our history and heritage?

We are leaving the city wide open for the Reds to become bigger and stronger and that's what every one of them is saying when you are out and about in this city. Moving to Kirkby will have a far bigger effect on our club than just playing in a new ground and that's a fact.

Saying that, this K-town move is no way a done deal and from what I witnessed yesterday the fight is only just beginning. Kenwright has got a real battle on his hands here and the Blue Army won't be pushed around as easily as he thinks.

KEIOC ? its what all real Evertonians want and I hope we get our wish. Kenwright, Wyness and Terry Tesco you can all do one ? We are staying put!

Reader Comments

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Ged Dwyer
1   Posted 09/09/2007 at 17:39:44

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A big thank you to Tony Marsh for his Hope Street article. He summed things up very well indeed and it did make me feel that there is still some hope that the move to Kirkby will not happen. Then we can all consider the sensible options. I would like to add that it will be even harder to find anyone to admit to voting yes in the coming months as most will want to distance themselves from what will be another Kenwright fiasco.
Michael Kenrick
2   Posted 09/09/2007 at 17:49:08

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While I appreciate the report Tony penned, and have always understood where he is coming from on this very emotive issue, I think this latest denial needs to be nipped in the bud. I’m talking about the impossiblity of finding anyone who will admit to voting Yes.

People did vote Yes, a majority of these returning ballots, and they were given some very good reasons to vote Yes, as Neil Pearse and others have very clearly stated on these pages. The decision has been charatcterized as voting with the head or with the heart. That is, I think, disingenuous: it is (and has always been) a matter of faith, trust and belief.

If you believed what our venerable custodians our told us, then you were duty-bound to vote Yes. Tony calls the Yes voters "mugs" for believing; he posts up an alternate projection of the future that he is (of course) 100% convinced will come to pass... but again, it is a question of faith, trust and belief on the No side. Do you believe Tony’s portents of doom?

Ultimately it’s a business decision and many convinced themselves of the logic one way or the other, but at the end of the day, it’s really about what you BELIEVE, and that is why it’s so hard for either side, Yes or No, to convince the other through reasonaed discussion that theirs is the true message. And that is why it so often degenerates into slanging and abuse.
John Doolan
3   Posted 09/09/2007 at 17:54:53

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Ged - I voted Yes and am happy to admit it. I would however be even happier to admit I was wrong if we can come up with a solution in the city. That ultimately was why I voted yes after much agonising, because despite an excellent article by Tony it still does not tell us how we are going to pay for a new stadium. If money was not God in football, I would actually be content to stay in Goodison as it is now, but 5 and definately 10 years from now we would be truly fooked. I have no problem with the No voters continuing to campaign against Kirkby and if it ever happens that a city solution looks viable then I would sign up, but at the momnet it doesnt look possible
Gerard Madden
4   Posted 09/09/2007 at 17:49:00

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More holes than Swiss cheese come to mind :lol:. Just a couple of points - Merseyside has already recieved its final funding from the EU (for the new ferry terminal) after 13 years of giving help to Merseyside, it was reported in the local media last week (including Radio Merseyside) but apparantly according to this article there?s oodles more of it yet to come, once again HOK is mentioned and once again I?ll repeat they?ve NEVER said anything about the loop and have never issued an 18 page report - an easy thing to disprove a simple link off the KEIOC/Toffeeweb sites would suffice with a downloadable pdf file of the ?report?. ?

Finally did Cllr Anderson spell out why he was bitterly opposed to the King?s Dock scheme? Because he most certainly was and was always being quoted in the Echo to that effect - does he regret that stance now?

And not being able to find ANYONE who voted ?yes?? ? I think Mr Marsh should get out more because there?s thousands of us both inside and outside the city, as the democratic ballot prooved.
Barry Lightfoot
5   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:07:15

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How on earth is Wyness going to make money out of it he’s just a salaried employee it doesn’t make any sense at all. Also how do LCC own the land when it’s in the borough of Knowsley they may well do but it does seem a bit odd to me.
I’m not saying your wrong I’m just wondering out loud.
Also the more Bradley opens his mouth the more I don’t like him, I find it strange that you agree with everything he says and disagree with everything coming out of EFC. Personally I’d treat both sides with equal scepticism.
Dan Forde
6   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:04:42

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Concerning the vote to move away from Goodison I think what Everton should have done was to ask the voters to only return their ballot paper if they were in favour of the move, then their would have been none of this grey area we have now as Kirkby would be off.
Gerard Madden
7   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:19:32

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Barry - Knowsley council and Tesco arn’t daft they would’ve have known at the very outset who owned the land and whether there would be any problems further down the line. Apparantly the old Liverpool Corporation owned the land but when Knowsley council was created in 1974 the ’Corpy’ handed the land (now in Knowsley) to the new Knowsley council for free.
Michael Kenrick
8   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:21:07

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Barry

Wyness makes money (massive money) through bonuses. That is a documented fact. He also makes money through side deals he is allowed to pursue, even though for the rest of the world, these would be considered serious conflicts of interest. Under the Everton operating model, they are not.

And, if you know your history (sorry!) LCC actually bought up almost all of the land that is now Kirkby/Knowsley, back in the 1940s, as overspill for the new town. It should not be at all surprising that LCC still has substantial land holdings within the borough of Knowsley.
Barry Lightfoot
9   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:26:29

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Michael so who is right regarding who owns the land you or Gerard Madden.
Tommy Garry
10   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:23:11

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"KEIOC ? its what all real Evertonians want and I hope we get our wish. Kenwright, Wyness and Terry Tesco you can all do one ? We are staying put."

I am a real Evertonian and a realist unlike yourself. we are being knocked over by people giving us money to build a new ground? MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.... let me think: "Tesco" the only name in the frame. We are skint and will always be skint, while so called Evertonian like you are holding back our progress. Speak for yourself not for me I voted yes and so did a lot of "REAL EVERTONIANS"
Anthony Newell
11   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:20:30

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Nice one Tony, I’ll be joining the troops in the trenches to fight this one too. We shall not be moved and all that (well to fucking Kirkby anyway) I was talking to a Spurs supporter last night explaining why I was against this and you know the more I talked about it and the fact that so many people who could have voted didn’t, the more obvious it became to me what a suicidal move this would be. It’s obvious that 10000 of our fans either couldn’t be bothered to vote or couldn’t bring themselves to have the courage of their convictions to vote one way or the other and I believe the latter to be true. Lets put an end to this madness and send Bully Beef and Kenwright on their way. Let battle commence KEIOC NSNO
chris roberts
12   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:27:09

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I’ve just seen Mark Thomas speak but no way is his stuff funnier or more far fetched than Tony’s. No mention of numbers I see at the meeting. Must have been thousands though if all those Evertonians are passionately against the move.
Mike Wylie
13   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:33:41

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Surely if LCC own the land then it could be concieved that the team will continue to play in Liverpool and the argument for staying is null and void. Afterall the boundary is only a state created, load of bollocks.
Kevin Sparke
14   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:36:55

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I’m in an odd position. If I’d have have had a vote I’d have voted no to the Kirkby move. For reasons I’ve stated elswhere, I’m convinced that it could herald the demise of our club. I believe that Kirkby is a short term convenient solution to a problem that needs a long term answer.

However, I’m familiar with the loop site and can’t for the life of me figure out how you will get a 60,000 seat stadium squeezed into that area - it would have to be like the tardis.

Also, I wouldn’t trust Bradley as far as I could throw him.
Peter Singer
15   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:24:56

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I’d readily accept that Mr. Wyness is a liar. If pushed very hard, I’d say, Kenwright is a liar too. He’s an actor after all, so they say. (However, I don’t want to argue with anyone about this, so please, don’t say I’m wrong, it’s only an assumption.)

So, for a moment, let’s assume the club’s leaders are liars. On the other hand, Warren Bradley and Joe Anderson are politicians, aren’t they? Sincerity is not a core value in their profession to put it mildly.

So I find it somewhat strange and in a way funny, when somebody takes anything from two politicians without a single pinch of salt. (Just an example: if Mr. Bradley wanted his articles published so badly why didn’t he post them here or the KEIOC site? It’s surely not the same level of publicity as the Echo but more than zero.)

All we know for sure is something’s rotten and it stinks to high heaven. It’s simple to say that one side is lying and the other one isn’t. As Michael pointed out, this is not head or heart. Both sides are pulling emotional things. They both present us with fearsome visions about our club being utterly destroyed. And when it comes to that, you have to begin to suspect this is because the figures don’t add up. If there was a simple and logical argument backed up with hard facts that could convince all fans’ head, why would they bother with touchy-feely stuff?

My conclusion is the KEIOC should keep on working but please don’t believe everything you’re told just because that’s what you want to hear. Finding out the exact situation before the battle is the first rule of warfare of any kind.
Terry(marsbar) Maddock
16   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:43:03

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Anybody ever been to a Nuremburg rally?...probably not..
Well i managed to stomach about 10 minutes of Warren Bradleys unsubstatiated tripe..and not wanting to be trampled on or threatened to for daring to question the "panel" like some others were ..I decided to go home and watch the racing..

"36,000 ballot papers sent out and only 15,000 returned with ticks in the Yes box. Is that really a majority? "

A little simple arithmatic says that less than a 1/3 voted NO..
So Im gonna stick my neck out and say that thats a majority..

But as always...as on Saturday..lets not let the facts get in the way..blah blah.etc etc

James Smith
17   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:53:34

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Having read what Tony has reported, it seems to me as if the council represenativies and the bestway people knew exactly what to say in order to please the punters. Perhaps there is truth in what they say, perhaps, but unless Tony is paraphrasing, perhaps a little embellishing what was said by they, it appears the meeting were done up hook line and sinker. Bradley knows how to play his game well, I’ll give him that.
Dave Reade
18   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:46:30

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If Kirkby was part of Liverpool city council as it was created in the 50?s for the Liverpool overspill, and it is the same distance from the city centre as say Speke which is in LCC, then would there be a problem about Kirkby if LCC said they would build the stadium there. This also means we cant have a stadium in Bootle Huyton or Halewood either which to me are part of the city. These boundaries to me are shite because knowsley to me is liverpool a place full of scousers
ps i lost my front row seat to corporate seats due to wyness and got moved into the gods by the fat b. and half the time the seats are empty. I also told Wynesses oppo Harvey Smith what I thought of the fathead. Problem is Bradley himself is as untrustworthy as BK and KW. I dont normally like Marsh but he has the clubs fans at heart i suppose.
Tom Hughes
19   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:39:39

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Gerard says:

"once again HOK is mentioned and once again I?ll repeat they?ve NEVER said anything about the loop and have never issued an 18 page report"

First of all, Bestway, LCC and Trevor Skempton the local press have all talked about the HOK report in various articles. Their abridged version was published and has appeared all over the place..... so how can you keep saying HOK have NEVER said anything about the Loop? No-one else(not even the club) is contending this fact. It would seem that your desperation to put people down regardless of facts knows no bounds.
Tony Marsh
20   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:45:57

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I don't understand why if there is some way we can avoid going to Kirkby that some of you don't want it. Bradley said LLC own the land being considered and there was a covenant on it. It will have to go before a judge to have it lifted. Who are we to argue any different?

Chris Roberts, what do you find far-fetched mate? I am only repeating what I heard at the meeting. I am sure there are others out there who can verify this so please don't call me a liar.

Say what you like about Warren Bradley but at least the man is fighting for the club's future. He doesn't have to get involved in this mess but gives up his own time to try and help.

As for the move itself, why do the Yes voters keep saying things like its only 4 miles away from Goodison or Kirkby is part of Liverpool? That's not the issue we are dealing with. Most No voters realise that moving farther away fron the city center is suicide especially if it's new revenue streams we are after. I would have the same reservations about going to Speke and that's in Liverpool. We need to get nearer to town ? not farther away. It's common sense. Theres more chance of picking up extra support if we are right next to all the amenities of the city center... just think aboutit: Kirkby town or Liverpool city ? which would make for a more pleasant day out for the corporates and the tourists?

Mayor of Kirkby
21   Posted 09/09/2007 at 19:06:04

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I hereby beseech the freedom of Kirkby on Tony Marsh, he can now park his sheep on any grass verge in the town and drink in any alehouse in the town for free.
Ste Westcott
22   Posted 09/09/2007 at 18:59:49

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I think we all need to be realists on this issue, Goodison park is history( as much as it kills me to say ), so we have choices.
1. Jumping into bed with Tesco
2. Try to keep our club in the city that we belong.
Mr Bradley may at times snap at the Everton media machine, I realy do believe though we do not need to get into a war of words with Everton. As a pressure group KEIOC need to produce solid facts and let the Evertonians countrywide see these facts, lets be the biger person in this fight. Once the facts are produced and circulated people will start to rethink and hopefully we will start to turn the heads of our yes voters, once this is done Everton will have to stand up and pay attention. We need to remember that KEIOC are doing a fantastic job and will become stronger as time goes on, a clear mandate and issuing of clear facts will rock the Everton media machine.
Keep the good work up, your time will come and your fight will become a major embaressment to Everton.
Gerard Madden
23   Posted 09/09/2007 at 19:17:50

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Just some clarification - cllr Bradley ’hinted’ at the ’possibility’ that the land in kirkby might actually belong to liverpool city council and not knowsley and it’s something he’ll go back and find out more about. That is a whole world of difference from saying LCC actually owns the land as Mr. Marsh incorrectly states. As I said earlier on this point Knowsley council and Tesco arn’t daft and they would’ve checked teensy weensy little details like who owns the land from the very outset.
Gavin Ramejkis
24   Posted 09/09/2007 at 19:20:38

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I read this article earlier this evening and was ready to reply none offensively but it was locked so surprised to find it open now and that the replies so far are so well behaved. I couldn’t make the meeting but am surprised by a number of facts as reported, it appears that the club failed to appear yet again not even Ian Ross and if the statements made by Warren Bradley and Joe are verbatim then if there was any issue with truth they would very soon be hearing from BK and KW’s legal teams, something again I have little belief in happening. Someone else mentioned in another post that the Knowlsey Council people involved are also politicians and ones desperate to get this project going in order to kick start their area’s regeneration, but I stand by this being the wrong move for the club a serious business error moving away from an existing infrastructure transport and available support base to an unknown and without almost biblical building changes one that will never provide what the city of Liverpool could. Thank you Tony for taking your own time to report on this.
Tony Marsh
25   Posted 09/09/2007 at 19:36:32

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Gerrad Madden just to clarify mate Bradley and Anderson both said that the land in question BELONGS to LLC which means they own it.There is a covenant in place which must be lifted in order for building on said to begin.That means court appeals etc.Thats what they said so I believe it.Why lie and make themselves look silly?
Karl Masters
26   Posted 09/09/2007 at 19:36:07

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As somebody put it the other day:

2 words - Wyness Bonus

It is also worth adding that if we end up in Kirkby BK will have something far more valuable (on paper) to sell if he so chooses.

There is a conflict of interest here.
Gerard Madden
27   Posted 09/09/2007 at 19:44:17

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Some of the land that LCC ’supposedly’ owns has ALREADY GOT DEVELOPMENTS ON IT that Knowsley have happily built on over the years without (to my knowledge) having had to first kneel down to LCC for permission - a college, a school, some housing amongst other things - really you’re making a mountain out of a very little molehill, Bradley is doing his job alright in satisfying the whims of some ’no’ voters and keeping fans off his back a little while longer. As Michael has pointed out earlier LCC own swathes of land across Knowsley from the former pre-1974 Kirkby/Huyton Urban district councils - it’s no big deal as you’re making out as much of the land owned by LCC was handed over to the new Knowsley council in 1974 for FREE!
Neil Pearse
28   Posted 09/09/2007 at 19:47:36

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I am a well-known YES voter on this site, so here’s one for you Tony! It is true, I do live in London not Liverpool though.

Anyway, what struck me most about this report was, if it is accurate, how utterly broken the relationship is between Everton FC and the LCC. I know nowhere near enough to accurately apportion blame, but it seems to me that is probably now impossible for the two sides to work effectively together.

Nobody comes out of this well. If Wyness keeps simply ignoring Bradley that seems both unprofessional and stupid. On the other hand, if Bradley’s strategy is to directly call Wyness an incompetent liar who is only in this for himself, then he is an idiot if he is surprised that Wyness is not then keen to meet him.

It is more than a shame that Everton’s future is being influenced by what appears to be a schoolyard squabble.

As is well known, I am not at all convinced that any viable fundable timely options exist outside Kirkby. But I’d rather that this whole matter wasn’t influenced by this childish spat.
Danny Jones
29   Posted 09/09/2007 at 19:44:46

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Gerrad Madden, must own a chippy between K town center and the thomas the tank train station in Kirkby, and is looking forward to having hordes of customers hovering around for many a hour after the match, i love all these people who say lcc/bestway must give us concrete plans. So a few night pics with shiny bright lights and maths from Wyness that would make a 4 year old blush (15m for GP and 25M naming rights, dont make me fukin laugh), and you ticked yes, and you want concrete plans idiots!
Billy Brad
30   Posted 09/09/2007 at 19:48:54

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Good piece Tony.
One point I would like to clarify is that you make out as if ther was lots of drunks at the meeting. There was one idiot who hadnt been home from the night before and was quickly asked to leave. Also as for the organisation of the meeting, it wasnt the best I agree, but I am fed up of people moaning about minor details of what KEIOC are trying to do. These lads are fighting our corner and need ALL the help they can get from Every Evertonian who supports the campaign. So come on fellas get involved and support KEIOC and lets show this board up for what they realy are.
AJ (London)
31   Posted 09/09/2007 at 19:38:18

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Oh, so the meeting nearly came to blows. Drunks, or simply yes voters who openly admitted their allegiance.

I also note that the chances of reconciliation between Bradley and Wyness on your account is zero.

Pity. Both men should be bigger. And as I thought that Wyness was wrong to publish his disparaging open letter, I think Bradley is wrong to use his position in such a way.

I think Bradley needs to realise quickly that the club actually doesn’t need to talk to anyone in Liverpool.

Finally, what’s all this nonsense about REAL Evertonians? Some KEIOC adherants seem to be remnants of Militant Tendancy / Socialist Workers Party - and I thought Hatton had long disappeared from the scene.

Shame for sure.
Neil Pearse
32   Posted 09/09/2007 at 20:10:17

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Tony, I do think you are being a bit naive about our Mr Bradley ("he is fighting for the club’s future... doesn’t need to get involved in this mess"). One thing I love about you Tony is your cynicism about human nature - but Warren seems to have turned you a bit soft in the head!

Bradley needs to get involved because it is appalingly embarrasing to him and his party that one of the city’s football teams has been so badly served by his body the LCC that they are running into the arms of another council. This is a political disaster for him - and hence, as it appears, he is coming out all guns blazing (making himself look a bit of a fool in my opinion).

Bradley may still be talking some truth. But saintlike and disinterested he certainly is not. It’s safe to assume that all those in public positions have some axe to grind at this stage.
Derek Hatoff
33   Posted 09/09/2007 at 20:16:35

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AJ London-please do not compare KEIOC to any left-wing political groups,as Billy Brad said they are a group of Evertonions giving there own time and effort in what they believe to be the best interests of EFC,I have to agree with him,theyre doing a great job keeping the opposition to BK and Bully going strong.Keep up the fight lads,power to the people.
Steve McBride
34   Posted 09/09/2007 at 19:15:01

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Sorry to be a bit late joining this discussion but I was at the meeting on Saturday and Bradley and Joe Anderson confirmed that the land in question is actually owned by LCC but it was unlikely to cause any major problems to KMB unless, which they said they were looking into, there were restrictions placed on what could actually be built on the land when it was ?handed over?.

Both Bradley and Joe Anderson are confident that funding will be available for the regeneration of the Loop and Aintree if job creation was a key part of the development. They also confirmed that there is land around the Loop owned by LCC and other vacant lots which would would ?enhance? the development site footprint.

Just to contradict Tony slightly, the Edge Lane site is actually owned by an Asian businessman based in the Isle of Man and he is looking for the right development for that site.

Confirming Tony?s comments on the 18-page report from HOK, Trevor Skempton, architect and consultant on the Paradise Project, and Ian the rep from Bestway, who are spending their own money on the various studies and wouldn?t do so if they felt this was a total waste of time, both confirmed the existence of this document but said that the document was mainly a technical document and therefore deemed unsuitable for publication to the public domain. HOK are a very reputable company who I am sure would contradict the claims of these people if untrue. And before anyone criticises/disbelieves this then please let them tell me where the documentation can be found relating to the Kirkby deal.

I find it highly amusing that people criticise no voters and ask how they can believe Bradley etc. without question and make comments about not letting facts get in the way but have gladly done so themselves with BK and KW even though the Kirkby ?facts? have changed repeatedly since the first announcement. Unlike EFC, the info coming from LCC/Bestway about the Loop is, if nothing else, consistent.

If I was 100% confident I had the ?Deal of the Century? I?d be saying ?Here it is, we?ll work with you for a set period of time and challenge you to match it or even better it?. If they can?t, they can?t but if they could then you really would have a win, win, win situation. The club gets what it wants, the city does, and most importantly the fans can be reunited. Isn?t that last ?win? alone worth a little flexibility from the club?

Paul Johnson
35   Posted 09/09/2007 at 20:22:52

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my favourite bit..........."i went on a pub crawl around town and ended up in the queens in huyton".

there’s a certain irony in that but i can’t be arsed pointing it out.

Tony Marsh
36   Posted 09/09/2007 at 20:26:09

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Niel,Warren Bradley made it clear yesterday that he was at the meeting as a concerned Evertonian who has been a season ticket holder a lot longer than he has been on the council.What you are saying is a man in a certain type of employment cant have any passion about his football club which is nonesense.If Bradley can pull a few strings and open a few doors because of his position then good on him I say.
Andy McKenzie
37   Posted 09/09/2007 at 20:30:06

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Derek, I agree, the way people blast KEIOC is out of order, they should be praised for the work they?ve done so far, they are just Evertonians like everyone on this site and just want a better deal than whats on show at the moment

Great post Tony Marsh, well done.
Dave Roberts
38   Posted 09/09/2007 at 20:05:44

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Gerrard,

You’re wasting your time mate!There is just no way that the naysayers will be moved...and good luck to ’em, that’s their right. My missus and I spent months arguing out this issue and while most of the naysayers at least remained civil many did not and the insults and accusations of self-interest flowed. If only we had known the MAJORITY agreed with us anyway we could have saved ourselves an awful lot of hassle!

And it is a MAJORITY. Abstaining or not being bothered to vote for whatever reason is perfectly legitimate in Democracy !We knew that before the vote and we know it now.

Finally, I VOTED YES. I HAVE ALSO BEEN A REAL EVERTONIAN FOR 52 YEARS. IT’S ABOUT TIME THAT SOME ON THIS WEBSITE REFRAINED FROM PRESUMING OR STATING THAT ANYBODY WHO DOES NOT AGREE WITH THEM IS NOT A REAL EVERTONIAN AND SOME KIND OF RENEGADE.MAKE A NOTE OF MY NAME. I’M HERE TO BE COUNTED. I’M NOT HIDING!
Paul Milner
39   Posted 09/09/2007 at 20:25:47

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At the end of the day, the only way to make this Board sit up and take notice is to hit them in the pocket.

I know it would be the hardest thing in the world to say you?re not going to continue going to the match (and to really mean it and follow it through) but if there were say 5,000 plus fans who, through some sort of organised letter, signed-up and presented the letter to the Board making it clear that we are not renewing next year because of Kirkby, they would have to take notice.

In the meantime, the club needs to explore ALL possible alternatives to Kirkby. I believe it?s a matter of life and death for this club, so drastic action is needed.
Gerard Madden
40   Posted 09/09/2007 at 20:32:35

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Steve Mc - ’Bradley and Joe Anderson confirmed that the land in question is actually owned by LCC but it was unlikely to cause any major problems to KMB’ (unless a stadium is built on it and a supermarket!):lol:

Thanks for confirmation of that, as I said Knowsley will have these ’hand-over’ documents too and they (and Tesco) will have checked land ownership issues at the outset.

By the way some of us would love to see that fabled ’18 page HOK report’ but are continually baffled why it’s STILL not linked anywhere - just a pdf file would do. I don’t care if it’s too ’technical’ i’d still love to see it despite it being ’unsuitable for publication into the public domain’ and not just to see if it actually exists.
Dave Reade
41   Posted 09/09/2007 at 20:44:54

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It's ironic on Tony Marsh?s pub crawl he ended up in Knowsley ie Huyton, what's wrong with Liverpool pubs?
Neil Pearse
42   Posted 09/09/2007 at 20:35:53

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Interesting that Bradley should make such a big thing saying that Kenwright does not want to sell.

First of all, and I know I am repeating myself here from earlier posts, in most other cases bidders have publicly emerged without being ’invited in’ or ’found’ by the current owner. Everton FC is not exactly a secret in the world of sport. Often in fact these new bidders are not wanted by the current owners. But bid they do, and often get what they want.

So I just don’t buy the argument that, with all these bidders for Premiership clubs flying around, Bill has somehow ’stopped’ any of them from coming forward. Not a hint of any in the press. I just don’t see how he could have done, even if he wanted to.

The really interesting question is why no-one has tried to buy Everton. I think one of the issues is that the cost - given that a buyer would have to fund a new stadium - has looked too steep. I noted that Terry Leahy said that new investment could well emerge post the Kirkby deal. Makes a lot of sense. Of course a super rich Abramovich-type wouldn’t care, and could bid now. But there aren’t many of those around!
Anthony Murray
43   Posted 09/09/2007 at 19:23:03

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I didn?t vote on the ground move issue but I would have probably voted Yes, with a heavy heart, but I never. I have supported Everton all my life, I no longer live in the UK but I try and get over when ever possible. What I find irritating is some of the posts by the No people, who question the loyalty of Evertonians who voted Yes, some of the comments are out of order.

I might be wrong here but are we not the only club in the world who have give the fans a democratic vote on this (and for all those people who didn?t vote well that is their choice and nothing to do with anybody else) and what do the Board get for that? Ripped apart, crooks, fat lazy bastards to name but a few. Well I find this a bit unjustified.

Five years ago we were the laughing stock of the Premier League, relegation fight every season, a chairman (Johnson for those of you who choose to forget) who nearly took us to the brink of bankruptcy, a team of fucking pensioners, we was a joke. Kenwright might not be everyone?s cup of tea but, we have qualified for Europe twice, our debts have been more than halved, we have twice broken our transfer record, we have one of the best young managers in the game and people now look at us as not a relegation basket case but a top-six decent side. Doesn?t the Board take some credit or is that to much to ask for judging by some of these comments?

I will say this to every Everton fan: if you voted NO well that?s your choice and you're fully justified in your opinion but please stop making people who decided to vote YES into some scab who doesn?t give a fuck about the club! People do care just as much as the people who voted No, but they just see things slightly different from you. My old fella stood on a picket line for 2 years, he thought he was right and every other person who just wanted to get on with their lives and move on was scabs and sell-outs... and to be honest that?s the way things are going over this issue. It really is a shame though we are all Evertonians but eventually we will have to swallow our pride and accept that the ones who did vote voted Yes.

Neil Pearse
44   Posted 09/09/2007 at 20:53:05

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Tony, I believe that Warren Bradley is both passionate about his football club, and somewhat biased and self-interested given his position. I think the same passion and self-interest are probably also true of Bill Kenwright! So I listen to them both with a very open but sceptical mind, and certainly am not going to take what either of them says as gospel.
Tony Marsh
45   Posted 09/09/2007 at 20:50:34

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Dave Liverpool pubs are great I was in them all day.I will have a bevy anywhere.Town,Huyton,Kirkby
I just dont fancy watching Everton matches in Knowsley.By the way Dave Huyton is split between 2 councils.Knowsley Council which covers the L36 areas of Huyton
Dave Reade
46   Posted 09/09/2007 at 21:01:33

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Okay, fair enough Tony, I will let you off
Peter Singer
47   Posted 09/09/2007 at 20:38:32

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Derek, you start out with "please do not compare KEIOC to any left-wing political groups" and finish with "power to the people".

Apart from the obvious self-contradiction, please don’t suggest that those who voted yes are somehow not the people.

I’m sick with people labeling themselves true blues and all kinds of bullshit. If you think BK and KW are not deliberately seek their own personal benefit over the club’s, that’s ok. But is there anybody really thinking that those who voted yes did the same? If there is, we’re in really big trouble.
Gavin Ramejkis
48   Posted 09/09/2007 at 21:02:01

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Anthony the club’s debts have risen as per the annually available books and they no longer own anything besides players contracts and Goodison Park, those two facts show what a well run business this club isn’t.
AJ (London)
49   Posted 09/09/2007 at 20:57:20

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Derek Hatoff.

"KEIOC - Its what REAL Evertonians want" Tony Marsh.

"Socialism is the only answer" Marxist

No voters (those who actally were the minority in the real vote - are the realist, yes voters (those who were the majority) are deluded so it would seem.

Workers are fooled by the capitalist - only Marxist have the real answer.

Different context, same simplistic faschist view.

Thank god, only some no voters hold this nonsense view that they are the real Evertonians.

What am I, a plastic doll?


So long as KEIOC supporters hold such faschist views, while I’ll admire their work, I won’t go anywhere near them.
All I can say is thank God that KEIOC in its publicity welcomed yes, and no voters to its meetings. Tony would do well to remember that when his next pub crawl ends up in Huyton (Oh, the irony).
Neil Pearse
50   Posted 09/09/2007 at 21:09:10

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Gavin, accept your point about the growing debt (no doubt another factor putting off potential buyers).

But outsourcing everything you can is pretty common business practice these days, and does not necessarily signal a badly run company. If it does, most of British business is now badly run!

The ideas are basically that you don’t want to tie up your capital in ’non-core’ parts of your business (e.g. running cafes), and that other specialists are usually better at running many things than you are yourself.

The criticisms I would have is that the club has not done a good job in a number of important cases (come on down, JJB!) in effectively managing those to whom it’s outsourced things.
Steve McBride
51   Posted 09/09/2007 at 20:56:21

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Anthony, I think you?re confusing two issues here mate, what has happened on the pitch over the last few years and the improvements to the team and whether or not the Board have supported DM sufficiently and at the right time (CL?) etc. is a very different matter IMO to moving to Kirkby. LFC have been extremely well supported by their board, past and present, but do you think their fans would consider that if they were to be relocated outside the city?

It wouldn?t matter if we were champions the Kirkby move would be extremely controversial regardless because it?s about whether it?s the right move for the long-term future, not the past.
Anthony Murray
52   Posted 09/09/2007 at 21:07:40

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Of course we still have debts, but if you take the debt of the year-end 2001, this in real terms including interest and inflation, would be 100 million quid. Now I am no accountant but we haven?t got the debt we had 5 years ago, we was spending money we didn?t have (remember big Duncs transfer to the bar codes) the debt was re-structured, basically we are not in the same financial mess we was in. One thing I do know and this is from some well placed people in the council and the planning office, there is no feasible alternative, either financial, no planning feasibility studies have been carried out on other sites, no other financial packages have been offered and I have email from a senior planning officer (who happens to be a Everton Season ticket holder and is against the move in principal) he states very clear that the site by Scotland road would never receive planning permission, he quotes various planning polices that would prevent a 60 000 public stadium being developed on this land. Other sites also mentioned would need to be investigated because of toxic dumping in the past. Now someone put something on the table, finances, detailed planning investigations and then we can debate a real alternative but at the moment I don?t see anything concrete.
Peter Singer
53   Posted 09/09/2007 at 21:34:22

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Neil, a well-tun business looks after the outsourced areas. Too often can you see companies outsourcing activities and forgetting about them. You have to put a very serious effort in making sure the level of service and the costs remain constant. If you count the direct and indirect costs of overseeing outsourced activities it doesn’t look that good a business.
Gerard Madden
54   Posted 09/09/2007 at 21:43:55

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To quote Anthony - ’One thing I do know and this is from some well placed people in the council and the planning office, there is no feasible alternative, either financial, no planning feasibility studies have been carried out on other sites, no other financial packages have been offered and I have email from a senior planning officer (who happens to be a Everton Season ticket holder and is against the move in principal) he states very clear that the site by Scotland road would never receive planning permission, he quotes various planning polices that would prevent a 60 000 public stadium being developed on this land’.


I’ve also heard whispers from within the council about there being absolutely zero chance of any ’loop’ site getting planning permission for anything remotely like a 50-60,000 stadium - not just because of its tiny size and close location to a busy and important entrance to the city centre and to the tunnel. What’s more the club actually KNOW THIS hence their dismissive attitude to any suggestion of it - which just serves to irritate and frustrate some of the ’no’ voters even more.
John Doolan
55   Posted 09/09/2007 at 21:42:33

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The concern about fans not wanting to travel to Kirkby is real but i think we need some historical perspective

As a yes voter and a real evertonian I well remember the early 80s when i was part of record low post war crowds of 14-15k. Those crowds were not all no voters and so I take with a pinch of salt all this bollocks about the mythical Goodison matchday experience. You follow the team - end of story
Neil Pearse
56   Posted 09/09/2007 at 21:56:24

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Think we are in agreement Peter. The charge against Everton is that they have failed to adequately manage the activities they have outsourced. I absolutely agree that you don’t just outsource things and then forget about them.
Sean Rothwell
57   Posted 09/09/2007 at 21:49:04

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I would like to make a request to the editor - that any post which labels one group of fans as ’real’ Evertonians and others as ’traitors’ or ’sheep’ should be deleted and the author warned about their future conduct on this site. To suggest one group of Evertonians is better than another purely because they have a different opinion on the future of our Club is utterly pathetic.
Gerard Madden
58   Posted 09/09/2007 at 22:07:18

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Sean - ’I would like to make a request to the editor - that any post which labels one group of fans as ?real? Evertonians and others as ?traitors? or ?sheep? should be deleted and the author warned about their future conduct on this site’.


That request is seconded, almost every article by the likes of Tony Marsh (super duper blue) and the other recent article by another super duper uber blue Ian Macdonald either explicitly or (more likely) sneakily makes the point about some blues being ’real’ evertonians - It’s quite funny actually.
Neil Pearse
59   Posted 09/09/2007 at 22:10:38

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I agree with Sean that the ’not a real Evertonian’ slur has got to stop. Not sure it should be enforced by the ed though (free speech and all that).

I’ve been called "pompous", "immature" and "a cretin" amongst other things recently. No real problem with these! But, like many, being called ’not a real Evertonian’ makes my blood boil. What the fuck are all the unreal Evertonians doing posting on this site for God’s sake?

Agree with Sean. Passion, yes. Disagreement, yes. Calling into question one’s Evertonian credentials - let’s all stop it.
Ralph Basnett
60   Posted 09/09/2007 at 22:10:12

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Love it...
Socalled EVERTONIANs ipping the sh****t out of each othe with false promises, propaganda, nice words, BK & KW, KEIOC etc etc etc............................

No money,crap manager, shit players........
Get alife...........

Hitler was an innocent manufacture of society and the media is to blame. KEIOC is a tool manufactured out of businesses around Walto that fear losing trade run by REDSHITE. Move on, we are EVERTON and willl be EVERTON where ever we play.

Narrow minds us YES voters maybe but I for one have never hidden from the fact that short term (20 years) this is a good move and to shun it for our last 20 years is a joke.

One FA Cup win were we scraped a win does not justify balancing ur future.

Money is being spent all over the English game including foreign investment in lower league clubs that should never have a hope of being in the PREMIERSHIP but with the nvestment will be their in 5 years time. Are you as true blues as we fight to stave relegation going to say ’but we are EVERTON and belong their’ ? Get a life, it’s business, speculate to accumulate. KW is their to produce and whilst extremely well paid is slowly producing. BK as previously stated by me has steadied the ship and deserves a few quid for his efforts...

Just to justify my mere existence as an Evertonian I am 43, born of a red and live in a famils of reds, love EVERTON for being EVERTON and have followed them all around the world (any tax man reading I have receipts) and eventually when the good Lord says it’s my day will pass on all my memorabilia to the club, for I am a TRUE BLUE without a t-shirt or an attitude but just alove for my club.

Please stop tearing the club apart, got a business, move it, KEIOC & LCC - PROVE IT, BESTWAY - WHO????

Support your club, and enjoy the game.

FOR THAT IS ALL IT IS - A GAME - HOWEVE PAINFUL IT MAY BE SUPPORTING THE GREATEST TEAM EVERTON FOOTBALL CLUB , be it Kirkby, the loop ,Speke.

A BLUE
Tom Davies
61   Posted 09/09/2007 at 22:34:54

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I sadly douldn’t make it saturday, but i will make it to any future events i guarentee it.

I agree with everything you say, I also believe everything Warren Bradley says because I have no faith in Wyness at all. And regardless of how much Tesco Terry says he loves Everton, he simply wants to benefit Tesco and himself, he’s a businessman after all.

Up the blues, let’s stay in Liverpool lads and I hope we beat United!
Mick Mac
62   Posted 09/09/2007 at 22:45:32

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This proposed move to kirby is a pure business decision by the club and if I was a business man I would probably make the same decision. Like I said a business decision and because of that I dont think it will happen and I will explain why I think the deal will colapse. Firstly we are expected to go into a recesion soon and if things go tits up in the markets do you think tesco will be in the business of giving money to some scouse football team, no neither do I. So just keep an eye on the FT in the next few days
Tony Grimes
63   Posted 09/09/2007 at 22:55:11

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Fuck me I never thought I would see the day when someone trusts a politician. Warren Bradley is just like all other politicians, fucking tooth faced pricks, promise you the moon to your face and then walks into his office and you what they say, ?fucking scruff who does he think I am, to busy? get a fucking life mate, he wont give a shit about Everton when he is looking for votes from RS fans just another PR stunt nothing that a brown envelope wouldn?t do to change his mind.
Flint Roberts
64   Posted 09/09/2007 at 22:40:44

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One again the usual spin on the campaign to keep Everton in our city. Those who were against the move all voted no. Those who hope for a brighter future away from the domination of the dark side voted to move. Those who just want to support Everton wherever they play didn?t vote. In the case of this referendum an abstention is tacit support for the move. It?s all very well to attack the current management of the club. Those of you who live in the city need to look to your local politicians. There are local electionsnext year, so why not field Keep Everton in our City candidates. You will scare the politiacl elite in the city stiff.
Jon Gard
65   Posted 09/09/2007 at 23:19:02

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Ralph Basnett:

"Move on, we are EVERTON and willl be EVERTON where ever we play."


Should we just move to Dublin then? Probably get a decent crowd there.

What absolute nonsense.
Barry Jones
66   Posted 10/09/2007 at 00:22:17

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Tony,

You stated that Bradley is here as a concerned Evertonian & you hope he can ?open a few doors?.

Mate - here?s hoping you?re right!

Personally, whilst i think there?s an element of concerned blue, there?s a majority of opportunist politician in him.

If he can find us a ripping deal to keep the club close to our roots, then i don?t care how mercenary he is - all i?m saying is don?t trust him with all your heart & soul, Tony.
Rob Paterson
67   Posted 10/09/2007 at 01:33:03

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Sorry I missed the public debate. It sounds such a balanced fair-minded discussion of the competing arguments.
Neil Millichip
68   Posted 10/09/2007 at 07:58:27

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I might be more convinced in the KEIOC alternatives if they were to show a comprehensive breakdown of how their schemes would be funded. How do KEIOC expect Everton (Kenwright and Wyness) to take their alternative plans serious until the details of how they propose to fund these alternatives are shown in depth.
AW
69   Posted 10/09/2007 at 08:01:07

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Mr Marsh, you should never do an article when you had too much to drink!! Had a look today at the comments and cant stop laughing at the lack of any solid facts like 1) who pays for it! 2) Why Tesco a are bad yest Bestway are top dog(same applies to LCC to KC). I’m fed up with these stupid and silly posts please start using facts backed by a business plan its the only way it will work. LCC can save the day by offering the footprint of Kirkby including Tesco in to Walton Park!!! Why had you not asked that question?? dont be a sheep be smart, KEIOC have the right to fight for another option but dont used 2 idiots as your main backers who cant even arrange the Mathew Street festival. The more you have meetings with no set Agenda or solid business plans backed by finance options then your invite to talk will never happen. Your have to raise your game and produce much better!!! I drink in orrys 6 of us season ticket holders 5 yes, 1 no maybe your to stop drinking in Wimslow !
Jay
70   Posted 10/09/2007 at 09:04:11

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Tony Marsh very good article. Never have trusted Kenwright ever!!!! At least you knew what a maggot that Peter Johnson was but Kenwright supposed to be one of US!!! What a joke. The man is a complete tosspot in my eye’s and will be the ruination of this once great club there’s nothing more certain.
danny smith
71   Posted 10/09/2007 at 08:36:31

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Yes voters, can you let me know a couple of things, because i dont get were you are coming from.

1) Do you think a small town, with the inferstruture of a small town, is a really good place to build a large stadium,do you think the massive logistical problems this will cause is a good thing, and going the match should be some sort of endurance test.
2) Do you think all the maths adds up nicely, for example naming rights 25m. Considering Arsenal got 30m over ten years from a airline for a massive iconic stadium, in the capital city with one of the biggest airports in the world. Cant see Sayers coming up with that! 15m for Goodison seems very optomistic as well, as the would be a high cost in ripping the place down, and its hardly a prime real estate area.
3) Do you think the is any danger that that are identity and fanbase will slowly erode, and that the red pr machine, will take full advantage of the one club one city situation.
Robbie Muldoon
72   Posted 10/09/2007 at 09:35:48

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Thanks for posting this Tony, good read and I still hope a better solution is found than the move to Kirkby.
mike oates
73   Posted 10/09/2007 at 09:44:23

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Does any professional outfit ever want to do business with these load of councillors etc who are quite willing to denegrate people with (if Tony has quoted correcetly) basically callous ,obscene diatribe . Call themselves leaders of a city who is looking to develop with major companies putting millions in - and they have to discuss confidential business with this load of ...... Who gives a bugger what Nugent thinks ! for Christ sake Tony grow up
Tom Hughes
74   Posted 10/09/2007 at 09:31:08

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Gerard this is all getting a bit tedious, you are continually spouting alsorts and passing it off as fact without absolutely anything to substantiate it. I am almost of the opinion that you are a plant to continue the propoganda trail on these forums and nothing else....You say:

?One thing I do know and this is from some well placed people in the council and the planning office, there is no feasible alternative, either financial, no planning feasibility studies have been carried out on other sites,"

Hold on a minute, you have previously said that the club have assessed all these sites in their search for an alternative over many years, so surely that would involve feasibility studies, or do you now accept that the club have never properly looked at this and therefore have lied to us?

"I have email from a senior planning officer (who happens to be a Everton Season ticket holder and is against the move in principal) he states very clear that the site by Scotland road would never receive planning permission, he quotes various planning polices that would prevent a 60 000 public stadium being developed on this land?."

Then post it up here, you have it in your possession so let us all see it. Name the planning officer. I’m sure the head planning officer (who is also a blue) and all his staff currently working on the Loop site would be interested to hear his input, and to stop them wasting any more time/money.


"I?ve also heard whispers from within the council about there being absolutely zero chance of any ?loop? site getting planning permission for anything remotely like a 50-60,000 stadium -"

Do me favour..... I’ve heard whispers?! Honestly, that is laughable. How come you have heard whispers yet you didn’t see HOK’s outline report that appeared everywhere? Some people have become that entrenched here that they are saying almost anything to support their argument. It clouds the real issues, and eventually via chinese "whispers" completely distorts the facts.



Peter Singer
75   Posted 10/09/2007 at 10:05:15

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"I agree with everything you say, I also believe everything Warren Bradley says because I have no faith in Wyness at all."

That’s the problem, mate. Never ever believe anything just because you don’t trust the opposite side.
Tom Hughes
76   Posted 10/09/2007 at 09:58:23

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Neil M:
People have been struggling to even get the club to talk to Bestway who are worth considerably more than Everton Football club. Please don’t forget, these are only ordinary people working in their spare time to campaign against the Kirkby option. They haven’t the resources, experience nor time to generate everything in fine detail. Conversely, the club and Tesco have had over 18 months, with many people working full time, and yet we still haven’t seen a full breakdown..... and final cost to the club. Neither have we seen the much vaunted transport assessment which was started over a year ago. The Bestway people will provide everything even given a fraction of the time given to Tesco, but they will need more than a few weeks.
Paul Johnson (of Oxton)
77   Posted 10/09/2007 at 10:19:26

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BK gets to put no money in and keep his shares while playing Santa by getting us the new ground we can’t afford. A real hat-trick for BK.

KB gets his bonus for delivering a stadium move and slinks off back to where he came from.

Tesco gets it’s new mega-store while giving no real money to Everton. They can’t, they won’t and they haven’t given us any cash.

Tesco developers will build a new store/stadium and get paid as usual, making a few percent on the deal.

The highly paid players will drive their expensive cars to a new car park on match day and not really care that we’ve moved. Why should they?


David Moyes MAY get more dosh (’up to £10m’) IF we sell more bums on seats or IF we sell more corporate boxes (in Kirkby!), which MIGHT help us compete with the ’big four’.

Interestingly, the fact that the RS are allowed to build on Stanley Park and we’re not amounts to unlawful state aid, surely? We are both competing businesses after all...
John Charles
78   Posted 10/09/2007 at 10:46:33

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We’re moving out of Liverpool... on to Liverpool city council owned land? Revolt!

Keep Everton Near Our Pubs!!
Tony
79   Posted 10/09/2007 at 10:46:34

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Mr Marsh,

Answer me this,
Why hasn’t a rough costing been allocated to the proposal for the loop so we can compare the two?
It seems to me that everyone against the move are willing to say other developments are an option but are only willing to put half a story across.
Its fine saying the loop can accomodate a stadium, but at what costs? Who will be paying for any other development?
Bradley has already said he is not willing to match Tescos funding. So where does that leave us then?
I really cannot believe people hang on the tripe that comes from Bradleys mouth. Yes I agree that Billy and Keith are not perfect and tell a few porkies, but a politician please come on.

I will continue to support the move until a proposal showing a cost and viability.
Gerard Madden
80   Posted 10/09/2007 at 10:54:58

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Tom Hughes - you’re simply going to have to accept the fact some of us have been hearing other things from the council - remember cllr Bradley IS NOT Liverpool City Council. I’m glad it’s not just me who’s heard things but Anthony too, by the way you were quoting Anthony’s posts as if they were mine.

I find it strange you can challenge what i’ve heard yet see no irony in the fact you believe 100% in some mythical 18 page report that allegedly HOK have had some input in.

Maybe in future we should stick to the factoids of the situation, factoids that EVERYONE can see with their own two eyes, the fact that 60% of voting blues voted for Kirkby, 40% of voting blues voted against and 11,000 voters couldn’t give a hoot/fig where we play.
Jon Gard
81   Posted 10/09/2007 at 11:13:04

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Gerard Madden:



To my mind, I don’t know *if* The Loop (or anywhere else) is deliverable. I just know I don’t want to move to Kirkby. That’s a different thing and should be the FIRST thing that people concentrate on.

I hope when you drive back at the end of the motorway and you see:

"WELCOME TO LIVERPOOL - HOME OF LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB" you’ll realise.
Mark P
82   Posted 10/09/2007 at 10:47:34

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I also was at the meeting, but left after half an hour as I couldnt stand to hera nother word, it was total propoganda. Anyone who supported the move was shouted down, insulted and threatend. If this is KEIOC then you can shove it.

If LCC has been working so hard for us then WHY were no proposals presented to Everton before the Everton, Knowlsey, Tesco deal?
There is no more funding from the EU, the freey termional will be the last bit of major funding, although there will be smaller ammonts available just as there are to every city in the EU with who we would have to compete.

Kirkby is the only plan that we have, all the KOIC (all 150 who were at the meeting, not exactly a cast of thousands!!) can do is bleat, moan and insult

I have sympathy with those who voted no, and I respect their opinion, I disagree with them.
Gerard Madden
83   Posted 10/09/2007 at 11:22:06

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Mark P - ’I also was at the meeting, but left after half an hour as I couldnt stand to hera nother word, it was total propoganda. Anyone who supported the move was shouted down, insulted and threatend. If this is KEIOC then you can shove it’.


To be fair to them they did say beforehand it was a meeting for ’no’ voters. I didn’t attend because I don’t think my ’I voted yes’ shirt I was wearing that day would not be appreciated!

Jon Gard - That’s your view but my view is contrary to that, for me Kirkby is as scouse as anywhere and IS Liverpool, others feel differently but we’ve had the vote now and we were all well aware of the issues surrounding the location, I don’t think there’s any need to go over very old ground time and time again.
Brian Wolf
84   Posted 10/09/2007 at 11:43:56

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Tony Marsh, you said,

"Niel,Warren Bradley made it clear yesterday that he was at the meeting as a concerned Evertonian who has been a season ticket holder a lot longer than he has been on the council.What you are saying is a man in a certain type of employment cant have any passion about his football club which is nonesense.If Bradley can pull a few strings and open a few doors because of his position then good on him I say."

However, how does the same not apply to Kenwright or Leahy? They are fans of the club and surely they have the clubs best interests at heart so why does that make them any different to Bradley?

You also said,
"Gerrad Madden just to clarify mate Bradley and Anderson both said that the land in question BELONGS to LLC which means they own it.There is a covenant in place which must be lifted in order for building on said to begin.That means court appeals etc.Thats what they said so I believe it.Why lie and make themselves look silly? "

So what you are saying is you would believe Bradley’s words over that of Kenwright? If you believe Warren Bradley word for word then you are a bigger mug than I took you for.
Brian Wolf
85   Posted 10/09/2007 at 11:52:57

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For the record also, I would’ve hated bumping into you on Saturday night if you were bothering everyone having a night out asking them if they were for or against Kirkby. Nugent probably told you what you wanted to hear just so you would go away.
robert carney
86   Posted 10/09/2007 at 11:41:45

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Gerard Madden, if you are so convinced of your yes vote why did’nt you have the balls to go along?

Regarding Tom H.accusations you are a plant. It is looking more and more obvious. You keep repeating the same tripe. Name names regarding your whispers. We can all say we heard something. No voters on this site do not seem to be afraid of naming there sources.

Re. Saturday, I would have loved to have gone along but something more important turned up. Like a lot of other people, I thought something a bit more concrete (sic)would have come out . A campaign to stay in the city which I support, will eventually have to come up with counter proposals. Even if it means a public offer for EFC.

anthony Murray
87   Posted 10/09/2007 at 12:30:19

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This is becoming a bitter war of words, and it seems that if you have diffrent opinions from the Tony Marsh’s of this world your a scab, traitor and your opinion or any facts you try and put forward are ridiculed and wrong. I have met these types before 25 years ago when the militant left run the city and wanted everyone to be a militant and if you never agreed with there backward thinking you were accused of being a scab and not a true scouser and all the other shite they spued out. And we all no what the outcome was a fucking bankrupt city. So if I want to voice my opinion and it it dosent fit in with your agendas, that is your problem not mine, I respect your opinions and agree with a lot of what you say but at the end of day I dont agree with all of it and that’s how it is and instead of slagging the Yes voters off and dismissing thier views as un - patriotic to EFC respect thier point of view, thats all it is opinions.
magicjuan
88   Posted 10/09/2007 at 12:47:55

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There have been absolutley NO discounting ’whispers’ regarding the Loop proposal, mainly due to the fact that it’s still under review and investigation regarding feasibility. That planning permission wouldn’t be allowed is nonsense as ’it wouldn’t be allowed on Stanley Park either’, things can be changed or bypassed, the r/s stadium is a prime example.
There is another misconception in that KMBC are passing over ’worthless land’ to the Kirkby project, when in reality the land has a value in the millions a (FOI application would put this in the public domain).
The problem in this is the use of KEIOC, which places any anti minded person as not wanting to go on geographical reasons alone, that aside, the entire financing of the project doesn’t stand up to scrutiny and all projections are on best case scenario income. What if the best case doesn’t happen? Tesco have a back up plan at project Jennifer, where as both KMBC and EFC do not have a plan B. Not exactly rocket science, people absorbed by the K project seem to have grabbed a poisoned chalice solely because it was the only chalice to drink from.
Tony Marsh
89   Posted 10/09/2007 at 13:28:24

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Brian Wolf.As of yet Warren Bradley as far as I know has never lied to me or Evertonians regarding anything.Bill Kenwright does it all the time.Kings Dock, Fortress Sports Fund,Wayne Rooney is not for sale We are 24/7 seeking investment.Phantom bids for Owen and Shearer.>The list is endless.BK never stops spinning porkies thats why I dont trust him.Kenwrights previous is enough to convict him as a lier.By the way I know the Nuggent family
PETER RIGBY
90   Posted 10/09/2007 at 13:37:12

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So after following EVERTON for 54 of my 58 years I am not a real EVERTONIAN because I voted yes to move to Kirkby. Please guys come out of the past and move on, we have a chance to move into a state of the art stadium AND have some money to improve the team.
I was born and bred in the Walton area, my dad’s family were all born in Millman Road and surounds and quite a few still do live there, but that walk to Goodison is now an embarasement, dodging dog shite gobby girls in pyjamas and stupid yobs hurling abuse, stop delaying the move, the majority have voted lets move on.
Tony Marsh
91   Posted 10/09/2007 at 13:39:07

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Tony no sirname.I cant give you any answers for anything to do with Bestway niether can I give you answers or figures for Kirkby.>All I did was post saying I had been to the KEIOC meeting and this is what was said.The Bestway guy did say that the club and Tesco have had 2 years to come up with there plans and figures and they have had only 2 months.>Remember exclusivity period and all that.I dont get all the<>hostility towards the club staying in Liverpool.I thought this is were the club is from and most fans would want it to stay that way.Give me an Everton FC>In Liverpool city center over Kirkby any day.And thats no offence to Kirkby and its people.>I have got good pals there.
Sean Rothwell
92   Posted 10/09/2007 at 13:59:46

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Tony Marsh, the way you seem to believe every soundbite that comes from Warren Bradley and disbelieve everything Bill Kenwright says just shows how you feel about our Club. Do you actually have a liking for Everton in any way? You seem to detest everything about the Club from the Board to the manager, from the playing staff to the caterers. Everything.

You obviously have a particular hatred of Bill Kenwright and without a shred of evidence, consistently call him a liar.
You say he lied about Kings Dock. No he didn’t. He just didn’t come up with the money.
You say he lied about bidding for Owen. No evidence on that but you did also claim that the Yakubu and Fernandes bids were fake.
You say he lied about Rooney being for sale. "Not for sale" is a generic soundbyte from any Club with a star player they’re trying to hang on to. What did Steve Gibson and Gareth Southgate tell us a week before Yakubu joined us. You got it, "he’s not for sale".
I honestly could not support Everton if I held so much contempt towards so many aspects of the Club. You need to learn that just because the Club aren’t doing things the way you want them done, it does not mean that the Club are doing things the wrong way.
Brian
93   Posted 10/09/2007 at 14:40:40

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I thought the Socialist Republic of Liverpool was destroyed by Maggie Thatcher years ago, ie Hatton and his cronies. Now it rises from the Ashes under the name KEIOC, a bunch of dinosarus shouting at, abusing, and threatening every decent hard working Evertonian who supports the move to Kirkby. Face the facts the move was voted for by 60% who bothered to vote, the absentee voters couldnt care less so they cant be viewed as No voters, You lost get on with it support the team, no one is asking you to like Kenwright and his cronies, but just support the team follow it through thick and thin and accept we have to move on a large multinational Tesco have come up with the goods with KCC and the useless Bradley and LCC and a mickey mouse cash and carry cannot come up with any viable concrete proposals.
Carl Roper
94   Posted 10/09/2007 at 14:24:57

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If Tony’s report of the event is in anyway accurate, then I’m appalled at the naked opportunism of Warren Bradley.

We are asked to believe that a man, on whose watch an established cultural event in the city was cancelled less than a month before it was due to take place, is capable of delivering a large scale building project on a site that even its supporters concede is likely to face numerous legal and administrative hurdles.



We are asked to believe that the council he leads has offered the club two sites (at Edge Lane and on Long Lane). But when where these offers made and what chances of success would there be of getting planning permission?



Whilst I respect the depth of feeling of those against the proposed move, I can’t respect anyone whos is gullible enough to believe Warren Bradley. Lets not forget, that this city faces a financial crisis brought about directly as a result of the mishandling of the City of Culture bid by the ruling group on thec council. During this entire period, Mr Bradlety has been a leading figure.

If it came down to comparing the records of Mr Wyness whilst CEO of EFC and Mr Bradley as Leader of LCC, there can only be one winner.

KEIOC and their supporters may have good grounds for not trusting Wyness on this matter, but please, lets not make the mistake that Bradley is acting the way he is out of anything other than political opportunism. The Lib Dems face a tough time at the next council elections (due to the aforementioned Culture Chaos) and it may not have escaped Bradley that throwing in his lot with the anti movers may not be a bad thing from an electoral point of view.
Tony Marsh
95   Posted 10/09/2007 at 14:55:47

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Sean the last time I looked we kicked off the 2007 season at Goodison park instead of Kings Dock despite being told back then by Kenwright that the £3o million required for our end of the deal had been Ring Fenced No need to panic we were told.Then when that turned out not to be true we had the Sports Fortress nonesense from Kenwright.Also not true.Now we are told the only way this club can survive is by going to a Tesco car park and building a ground on the cheap.Well Sean you believe the Bullshit that Kenwright spews.Just expect every one else to be so guillible.
Not Ian Ross
96   Posted 10/09/2007 at 14:40:44

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I cant understand why anyone who supports Everton and voted yes to kirkby would then go onto forums and try and discredit everything and anything that fans try and do to seek alternatives within the city boundary,im pretty sure if the voters had been given the choice of grounds,one in and one outside the city boundary they would’ve opted for the inner city option.Why do they take the opposition to kirkby so personally?surely if the club can be kept near to the city centre as possible then we all benefit,pro or anti kirkby,so whats the problem?if all the alternatives are so undeliverable well stop trying to subvert them and let them fail on their own merits.All these attempts to discredit any alternatives to kirkby so vehemently make me suspicious of were they are eminating from,this polarisation of fans views is just what Bully and BK wanted.And one more thing will the pro kirkby people stop stating "this is what the majority wanted" that is untrue.
Peter Swain
97   Posted 10/09/2007 at 14:06:42

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I am still undecided if the vote by the fans was the right one. I won?t list all the pros and cons because most of them have been covered on this message board. I have been out of the country for the best part of the summer and in between travelling and using the internet cafes around the world I am still catching up on events and to be honest I was surprised that the ?yes? vote got it by such a big margin. I honestly thought it would be a lot closer. I know this issue is very contentious and reading some posts very emotional to some, but If the vote would have gone the other way how would the yes vote reacted, would they have accepted the vote gracefully and moved on. I also think the board done the correct thing in actually giving the season ticket holders a chance to vote and even if you don?t agree with the result and spin sometimes you have got to put your hands up and admit defeat. Moving out the city boundaries I am still not sure if the morality of it is right, but where is the morality in business and big money these days. If we have an alternative site and someone is willing to put their money on the table with a project that hasn?t been put together on the back of a stamp, then maybe all is not lost but it all comes down to investment and partnerships, which to be honest I don?t really see a sound and viable alternative to Kirby at this present moment.
Gerard Madden
98   Posted 10/09/2007 at 15:13:00

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Not Ian Ross - ’I cant understand why anyone who supports Everton and voted yes to kirkby would then go onto forums and try and discredit everything and anything that fans try and do to seek alternatives within the city boundary’.


The simple reason why we still come on is because some fans - maybe a couple of hundred want to continue the ’debate’ which i’m happy to take part in too. I do accept though that the overwhelming majority of blues (yes and no voters) have moved on now after the vote and just can’t wait until our lovely new 50,000 (expandable to 60,000) stadium is complete.
Derek Hatoff
99   Posted 10/09/2007 at 15:17:46

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Brian Reade-your comments seem to be another attempt to discredit any anti kirkby feeling by association with some defunct political group,please keep your comments to something relative, this is not a political discussion and the majority of fans opposed to kirkby agree with what KEIOC are trying to do but are not affiliated to them so dont be trying to lump us all together under one misnomer.What are your affiliations?
Carl Cole
100   Posted 10/09/2007 at 15:22:58

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The people voted YES! Live in the NOW Tony Marsh, do you want whats best for Liverpool or whats best for Everton FC??
Steve Sweeney
101   Posted 10/09/2007 at 14:45:14

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I believe that the land in question has a covenant attached that it may only be developed for leisure facilities.I also understand that Tesco have found a loophole & this is why Tesco want to build a stadium there, well let them , let them build a sports centre for the people of Kirkby. Oh forgot they already have an underused underfunded sports centre near the M57.
Tesco are the wrong people to do business with< LOOK AT ThEIR RECORD WITH SUPPLIERS< THEY ARE WALKING ALL OVER Kenwright. He is just out of his depth and Wyness is not doing this for the good of Everton, he may well get a job at Tesco after he leaves.
THe move to Kirkby is just the wrong move, it really is.
Barry Read
102   Posted 10/09/2007 at 15:34:20

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There is a field around the corner from my house in Liverpool lets build the Ground there! Anyone got 200 million to build a ground? NO, maybe the KEIOC have the cash, if not want the hell are they going on about! No money = no new ground.
Brian Reade
103   Posted 10/09/2007 at 15:42:14

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To derek hatoff, first of all i use my real name not a made up one. My affiliation is with Everton FC and I will watch them wherever the ground is put, i happily tread through dogshit to get into Goodison just to see the Blues, give money to dodgy carminders, eat shite food served up in and out of the ground, drink warm beer, watch the game looking round a big post, have people piss down my leg in the bogs. I support the move though I have reservations about the transport network (road and rail) to the area. My political affilation was with labour though i did not vote for them during the Hatton era. I did support the Libdems to get them out but now I see what a bollocks they are making of things like the Capital of Culture and Matthew St and the chief bollock dropper is Bradley so now I vote labour again since 3yrs.
Billy Jones
104   Posted 10/09/2007 at 15:37:24

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60% for
40% against
that = the yes votes have it, end of the line for the die hards I am afraid you lost and the yes vote won not rocket science my dear Mr Marsh mellow If you want me to spell it out for you again I will
The yes won the Nos Lost end of story now go back to work and get way from your PC before you have a heart attack
Gerard Madden
105   Posted 10/09/2007 at 15:58:49

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Billy Jones - not only was it 60-40 in favour of the move and 11,000 ’don’t cares’ but most of them ’no’ voters are backing (albeit grudgingly in some cases) the result of the democratic ballot, that was looked after by the highly reputable ERS no less. The paltry turnout at that KEIOC meeting prooves that.
David Cameron
106   Posted 10/09/2007 at 15:52:58

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Maggie Maggie Maggie out out out, horay horay horay for Mr Marsh, this is a spiffing good politcal message board I will mention this site to my press officer. Think blue think tory, think of me, yeah brothers SAY NO TO KIRBY
Keith James
107   Posted 10/09/2007 at 15:51:03

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Mr Bradley may be commiting political suicide if he backs the losers.To be a winner he needs to come up with a winning plan.He could do himself and his party a real favour if he gets just one success under his belt after a disaster in festival and 2008 terms.
Sean Rothwell
108   Posted 10/09/2007 at 15:13:49

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Tony Marsh, just because Kenwright did not deliver the Kings Dock proposal does not make him a liar, it means he (and others I might add) failed on that particular project. I will believe what Bill Kenwright says because I don’t feel I have reason not to and because I believe him to be an honourable man whom I trust 100% to do what is right for our Club.

Not Ian Ross, I think you are undoubtedly right about the fact that people would vote for a stadium closer to the City Centre than Goodison is over a stadium in Kirkby. However, I don’t believe the outcome of the vote would be much different if we were offered a stadium in Fazackerley or Gilmoss (inside LCC boundaries) as has been mooted and if the vote had been over a move to Speke, I actually think it would have been a ’no’ majority. Boundaries aren’t the issue for most people as far as I can see, it’s the suitability of the location and it’s proximity to the City Centre. This is where I feel LCC and KEIOC have failed. It isn’t about keeping Everton within the City boundaries, it’s about giving Everton a prime location. I, and I suspect many others, would just as soon move to Kirkby as move to Gilmoss, Long Lane or remain in Walton. None of these locations are prime locations. A prime location would be within walking distance of the City Centre and if LCC and KEIOC are so confident the Loop is viable then they should put ALL of their energy into producing some facts and not just a crayon-based drawing. If we aren’t going to get a City Centre stadium then all this bitching is for nothing, as a stadium in any other area of Liverpool will not generate any more income than the Kirkby stadium. I feel the Kirkby stadium is good enough for Everton FC and thus voted ’yes’. Of course, I would prefer a City Centre stadium but as far as I can see it ain’t going to happen with this joke of a City Council and we can’t let Everton FC get left behind.
Tom Hughes
109   Posted 10/09/2007 at 15:31:03

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There’s been a lot of tosh written about KEIOC, the group and the campaign. I have even read one article that named them as marxists and facists in the same post..... is that possible? People have tried to label them as rowdy militants, and even said that a fight nearly broke out. They even say they are Walton businessmen with ulterior motives.
None..... I repeat none of these accusations are true, and most are even quite farcical. I am not a member of the group, but I have attended various meetings and they have facilitated my meetings with various architects and LCC etc. These people are just dedicated match-going blues who believe strongly enough to have the conviction to campaign against this out of town move. Some actually live closer to the Kirkby site but still feel that it is wrong for the club. They are all genuine people from various walks of life and professions. There was one rowdy person at the meeting the other day who looked worse for wear (he wasn’t a member of KEIOC), and he was asked to leave. No drama, no incident! All Evertonians were welcome to attend, no-one was in any danger if they voted yes. To say otherwise is pure fabrication, there were several children, women and older people in attendance I didn’t see anyone who looked threatened with several speakers and lots of questions from the audience.
michael newton
110   Posted 10/09/2007 at 16:11:56

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Isn’t most land in a city already built on and used up, I do not know of any major cities with vast amounts of waste land in their centres. Any stadium would have to be built on the outskirts of a city, I think you will find that true in most countries around the world the grounds are all on the outskirts.
Didn’t Johnson if memory serves me right once propose a ground at Kirkby Golf Club which I think is in LCC within the M57 no one complained at the time about that. Is Gillmoss all the waste land where the old English Electric site is as far away from the city as Kirkby. Is Speke not even further than away than Kirkby.
Andy Ellams
111   Posted 10/09/2007 at 16:20:59

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If real Evertonians voted no to Kirkby yet were outvoted. Then there must be a hell of a lot of non-Evertonians who are season ticket holders and members of the club.

Get a life boys. You spent too many years supporting Derek Hatton and his anti-Thatcher cronies and believe the whole world is one big conspiracy theory.
George Bush
112   Posted 10/09/2007 at 16:33:06

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Mr.Ellams are you trying to discredit my whole world conspiracy project?
magicjuan
113   Posted 10/09/2007 at 16:26:25

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Mr Newton, there is land available, next time you’re at Goodison take a look at Stanley Park, wide open fields with roads surrounding it, surely enough space for a stadium?
Although I have been strongly against Kirkby project from the first piece of information came out, it has had nothing to do with the boundaries or Kirkby itself, it was to do with the ’projections’ and ’revenue streams’ and ’forecasts’ presented by KW to bolster that side of the argument. I have tried to be generous in studying the information, the proposals and why the board have faith in them, yet every time I gain a slight insight into their minds workings they go and change the information!! If someone wants to sell you a house saying it has 3 bedrooms, you get interested, then they tell you it’s only got 2 would you be worried? And there was a possibility that the neighbours weren’t too happy with you moving there and would protest? Still be interested?
There is a neo-con attitude at Everton (seeing as everyone is talking politics) that lives by their own rules, ignore or lie enough and it will go away.
If this project was driven by EFC it would have been easier to ’obtain’ a ’no vote’, as it was the club relied entirely on the propaganda techniques that Tesco HAVE to use to get their way in situations like this.
A lie is best hidden between two truths, them being Tesco reason for Kirkby and KMBC reason for Kirkby. Ours doesn’t stack up financially I’m afraid, pie in the sky statistics.
efcmark (Rusty Man)
114   Posted 10/09/2007 at 15:53:54

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There is one good thing about Tony Marsh’s willingness to post his meeting report and that is it has very ably demonstrated something that the no voters like you to forget - there are two sides to this argument, something which certain sites/groups do not reflect. Its also very sad to see the speed with which the post-vote outcome has degenerated into sometimes quite vicious abuse and less violent but still a worry.....the fact that people go to the same meeting and "hear" very different statements about the same topic......it could almost be the House of Commons !

Tony, does anyone at KEOIC sit down and discuss tactics ? Do you and others involved ever take a calm moment to assess the best way to get your points across ? Seems not and frankly the own goals you score would make Sandy Brown proud.

What is the one thing guaranteed to deflect attention away from KEOIC’s important opportunity to continue the debate in a sensible and intelligent manner that might gradually win more people over in an argument that in my view still has a long way to go before contracts are signed ?

I’ll tell you, its by telling us "yes" voters that we are not "real evertonians". I cannot say how stupid that statement is because I cant belive anyone is crazy enough to think this will help their position in any way whatsoever ? I cannot believe that any "yes" voter would have been brave enough to turn up to the meeting as clearly they risked abuse and more for daring to oppose the no vote campaigners. But it had been said that "all were welcome". You must be joking.....

The "hate Kenwright" thing is so old news. The guy makes cock ups for sure and he may well be haunted by the loss of the KD development but in the last few days we have seen evidence of the doubts emerging about the trend towards new ownership at top clubs. The RS deal is only now being analysed in any depth and the debt burden is twice that facing Man Utd.....a couple of seasons out of the CL and season ticket price hikes to near-London levels and many kopites will soon forget the "price no barrier" transfer policy currently operating at their club. Man City may yet regret taking on a man wanted in his country for serious offences and Newcastle may yet feel vulnerable about an owner whose main company is said to be considering a third profits warning in a year and whose future looks to be a tough one.

Thing is Tony, you slag Kenwright off yet the jury is still out on these new owners. Time will tell whether EFC’s apparent caution is a massive missed opportunity or a very shrewd and secure bit of business planning.

As for the great stadium debate. Well whats the point ? You arnt that interested in yes voter views, never where. We are not real evertonians, we are sheep, we are stupid and worthless and lack the insight and intelligence that is demanded of a KEOIC campaigner. I wish you could see the damage done by this attitude and how much is risked by the nasty and intimidatory nature of the post-vote "discussions".
Tom Hughes
115   Posted 10/09/2007 at 16:22:26

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Michael,
I think you will find that the opposite is true. There is an abundance of brownfield sites in Liverpool. Trevor Skempton identified 6 on his own. Liverpool is like a complete building site at the moment, and there are till big open spaces in places as central as Everton. In the US they are currently undergoing the biggest stadium building boom in over 80 years. I read somewhere that they are currently building more stadia than the rest of the world put together, not sure how accurate that is. They are knocking down out of town stadia (some only 30 years old) to go downtown and benefit from mass transit public transport networks, and there have been several very successful ones already, some shoehorned into city blocks more densely built up than anything in Liverpool. Very few new stadia are built out of town world wide, particularly not local sports clubs venues. For me the point isn’t really about Kirkby’s non-Liverpool status (although this does carry the identity issue), I agree that like Speke (part of Liverpool) it would be ridiculous to locate a stadium so far away from the centre of gravity of our support. Anyone tried getting to the retail park lately which has a substantial car park? Where are all the extra buses for this facility......? They never materialised. People from South Liverpool approach from Speke road, and via Speke Boulevard for those who traversed the city via Queens Drive or the M57...... It’s complete grid lock half the time, and that’s without a footy stadium, and that’s also with a mainline and Northern line station less than a mile away.
Tom Hughes
116   Posted 10/09/2007 at 16:50:13

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Where have KEIOC stated that yes voters are not real evertonians? This is scaremongering and divisive. Stop attributing people’s comments on here to KEIOC. There are still some people calling them Hatton voters and tory bashers..... etc. What is this all about? There is NO political agenda to KEIOC at all. Incidentally and quite ironically, didn’t Hatton actually state that he was all for Kirkby? How does that effect people’s sensitivities, does it now make him a goody or a baddy? Lets stop this us and them, yes and no nonsense. We are all Evertonians, our ONLY objective MUST be to find out what is best for our club. We are a long way off knowing anywhere like enough to make that judgement, and that information should be what we all seek regardless of how we voted, where we live or whatever, this issue is far too important for everyone to be going off half-cocked.
Gerard Madden
117   Posted 10/09/2007 at 16:57:18

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Far be it for me - a mere majority yes voter to suggest something to the ’no’ campaign, even though the ’campaign’ for most of us was over with the ERS democratic ballot - How about focusing your energy on ONE site, on ONE ’deliverable’ scheme instead of the plethora of options that makes it very easy for the club and yes voters like me to view the minority ’no’ vote as 40% of this, that and t’other. I do realise that this will sadden some GFE types or Long Lane/Loop/Speke fans depending on who wins out but I feel it’s a choice that will have to be made literally in the next week or two because you can’t go on having a menu of sites as it weakens your argument.
Tony Marsh
118   Posted 10/09/2007 at 16:52:14

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Rusty Man I think you have got me mixed up with some one else.I have no affiliation to KEIOC or any other group in this city.I went along to the meeting<>on Saturday to listen to what was being said.To be honest some of it was a load of bollocks but at least Evertonians are having a go at maintaining our presence in the city in which we belong.As for the ballot on the Kirkby move
well the less said about that the the better.It was a total farce and those claiming it to be proof of a victory for the yes camp are delluding themselves.Missing ballot papers,Non reciept of ballot papers,Ballot papers going to the wrong people,Supporters who were not entitled to them getting them and others that were entitled not recieving them,Families with 4 season tickets getting only one vote.I have had 2 for years I got one vote.Why? my lad might of wanted to vote yes.It was a balls up from start to finish and the reason being the club didnt really give a shit about the vote they wanted some one to blame when it all goes tits up in Kirkby thats what it was really about.If you cant see it then thats your look out.
Dean
119   Posted 10/09/2007 at 17:07:19

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get real people, EVERYBODY LIES IN ORDER TO GET THEIR OWN WAY!!!

I can’t believe this is still being debated.

"well Dean it’s because everyone cares about such an important issue" bollocks. You’ve got nothing better to do or you’re not doing something that you should be.

Important - yes, Concluded - yes

now please shut the fuck up, no wonder we get the nickname "whinging poms"
magicjuan
120   Posted 10/09/2007 at 17:31:16

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Never been a whinger or a pom, but in my own mind I know what is right and what is wrong. This entire charade reeks to high heaven.
I see yes voters fighting their cause and saying it’s a done deal. Well the vote is that’s for sure. No voters and those against the kirkby move see it as the first step in a long battle. As is obvious here this will run and run.

For me I genuinely don’t want to be in a position in a few years time and say I told you so, but as it stands, as uppity as it is, I can’t see me saying other.
Gerard Madden
121   Posted 10/09/2007 at 17:39:54

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magicjuan - ’No voters and those against the kirkby move see it as the first step in a long battle. As is obvious here this will run and run’.


I can’t wait to see your responses in the next few weeks/months as step by step the Kirkby project comes together, the signings of contracts, then the planning application approval, then the nod from the govt, then the first shovels into the ground - my oh my you might even attract 200 to one of your KEIOC meetings. :lol:
Alan Piper
122   Posted 10/09/2007 at 17:09:52

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thank you Tom for trying to put this debate in a clear perspective,i find some of the comments ridiculous and devisive,as someone stated earlier why are some people coming on here and attacking or attempting to discredit alternatives to kirkby,lets see what they are and how viable they maybe,this is not an us or them situation,so lets discuss the pros and cons of any ideas without the vitriol.Some of the comments are becoming far to nasty and underhand,lets get back to the debate and away from the infighting and sniping its just a distraction.
Tom Hughes
123   Posted 10/09/2007 at 17:20:05

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Gerard:
You may be right about that...... This was spoken about at the meeting. Some people feel that we shouldn’t shut the door on any option because we all know how easy it is for any proposal to go tits up..... and we all like a plan B etc. It takes a long time to truly assess a site. Unfortunately we have neither the time nor resources to explore these properly. Access to the club’s data regarding alternatives would have been helpfull. These have been requested but have not materialised. Personally, I think we could fight on 2 fronts. We nearly completed a full set of options regarding redevelopment of GP. Most drawings are nearly complete. A business plan was in the offing, but could not be completed in time. Alternatively, The Bestway stuff will be well funded and resourced, so to be honest we have been put on the back burner. If Bestway don’t lose interest, (which they might if they don’t feel the club are being responsive, or that they have the fans backing) They should be able to generate an outline proposal in 6-9 months. The problem is of course, there will probably be all sorts of contracts and agreements being drafted for Kirkby as we speak.
Tony Marsh
124   Posted 10/09/2007 at 17:47:46

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Yes Madden and if it does happen you can smugly sit there in a half empty stadium a bit like Boro or Bolton fans do now and say>to any one who will listen... I did this.Me and all those other yes votes back in the day.We used to be from that big city up the road but that was before LFC robbed all our young supporters
We all thought a 50/60
thousand seater stadium would be a good idea out on this retail park but fuck me was I wrong.No one wants to know any more.Kieth and Bill have both buggered off
and now our leccy bill is costing more than we are taking through the gates.I remember when we were in that Premier league with the big boys. Now we are being called the new Leeds United but without the fan base.FFS WHAT HAVE I DONE???????????
magicjuan
125   Posted 10/09/2007 at 17:52:48

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Mr Madden, I am not nor have ever been a member of KEIOC, if you had the decency to read earlier posts you would have norticed I mentioned that KEIOC was a misnomer that actually became an obstacle to the cause as it inferred that being against Kirkby was solely a geographical point. I further posted at the promoted finances re kirkby not stacking up, from that you should be able to determine where my opposition comes from. Having a little spat at someone with a different point of view doesn’t do you any justice, nor your cause.
There are however many obstacles to be dealt with by the club starting with ahem , planning permission. The legality of the situation isn’t as clear cut as you seem to promote. The original planning application by Tesco to build on east lancs was knocked back on a single objector. As this was within LCC boundaries you would be surprised to see that the one objection came from , ahem, KMBC, who would then go on to offer an alternative site. Now wouldn’t a tit for tat situation between the councils come as a huge surprise?
Tom Hughes
126   Posted 10/09/2007 at 17:49:45

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Gerard,
KEIOC got over 4,000 to St Georges Hall and many had to be turned away, and over 10,000 to vote no in a vote where according to the club, no meant EFC dying. Not bad for just a few weeks campaigning by a handful of individuals and a totally one sided ballot funded by the club and supported by its wealthy partner. A few more weeks and KEIOC would have gained further support, and of course a few more percent to KEIOC would have meant a few less to the YES vote.
Degsy Hatton
127   Posted 10/09/2007 at 17:57:31

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Right direct action is needed here lets buycot the game, burn our scarfs and refuse to pay tax have a cival war and shit on Bill kenwrights face yeah picket Kirby and squat in Goodison Pk. Billy billy billy out out out. United the Everton fans will not be defeated. Oh shit I forgot I am now a right wing tory sorry lads forget about all that I said
Dave Godder
128   Posted 10/09/2007 at 17:49:26

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G.Madden what is your problem your responses are childish and malicious if you dont have anything constructive to say and are so certain kirkby will go ahead why do you keep making snide remarks,the way your going on you’d think you had all kinds of info on the kirkby proposal,are you a mate of Ian Ross?Do you own a chippy in Kirkby?Are you a ringer?sarcasm is the lowest form of wit,are you Tom Pepper?
Neil McKinney
129   Posted 10/09/2007 at 18:08:07

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I have read Tony’s article and I was definitely interested in what was discussed at the meeting. Some of it is laughable though, like the total unconditional belief in a politician but at the same time an inability to believe anything any pro Kirkby post or BK says.

There’s a difference between dishonesty and incompetence, which is a point I think somebody has already made above. Just because someone says they will do something, then is unable to deliver, does not necessarily make them a liar.

Rusty Man makes a really good point for me. As many NO voters have rightly pointed out, there is (I’m sure) a large proportion of the YES voters who would prefer a move closer to the city, and if a serious, deliverable project is put before them they would jump at it. However, how are you going to build support for a movement by rubbishing peoples’ opinions and questioning not only their loyalty but also their intelligence.

KEIOC are not a political movement or some sort of paramilitary organisation looking to cause trouble, they’re passionate Evertonians with an opinion. Unfortunately, many are undoing their efforts by allying themselves with KEIOC and then abusing YES voters. This is why minds will not be changed, lines have been drawn and sides have been picked and the same names pop up over and over again rubbishing each others claims.

I hope KEIOC keep going and perhaps, just maybe they’ll get a "plan B" off the ground. Then we will have something to debate. Until then the same old tripe is being rolled out over and over again. I’m happy to move to Kirkby but would have preferred a site near the city centre. So keep at it and show us what is truly deliverable. Otherwise, accept the future and support the club, wherever that may be.

And one last thing. All investment made in any business is made for a return! That means whoever it is, Tesco or otherwise, they will want something good from it. Please put the argument about big nasty Tesco to bed, because any large investor will be just as, if not more ruthless. At least we know what Tesco are getting out of this, no secrets there.

I would have voted YES based on what was on offer info wise for the vote at the time. However, I am definitely open to alternatives... serious, deliverable alternatives!

Keep the debate going, but respect everyone’s opinions and don’t make it personal, cos at the end of the day we all want the same thing... success on the pitch!

COYB
Mick Mc
130   Posted 10/09/2007 at 18:32:43

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Curry rice and chips please.
Paul Davis
131   Posted 10/09/2007 at 18:41:19

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There is no debate the votes are in the result is the yes win. No debate just gobshites mouthing off because there is nothing else happing at the moment, unless your a passionate ingerland fan, You can stamp your feet wave your banners and scream NO but the bottom line you have been defeated and defeat is hard thing to swallow but defeated you have been and now I am bored with your ranting and screaming so face facts Everton are relocating to Kirby in about 3 years time the deal is nearly signed just need planning permission which will take about 9 months so there it is you have lost pack up and go home
Nick Thomas
132   Posted 10/09/2007 at 19:02:54

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i voted yes, it hurts like hell that i did -but i have never been given another viable option -vote yes or the club implodes. i have only heard spin, spin, and more bloody spin -you betcha i am angry, i have only ever been told there are no other financially, or environmentally suitable options. (i voted with my head) but now i know where i really want to plant my head and thats right on smirking bill’s head....
Dave Godder
133   Posted 10/09/2007 at 19:04:36

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Paul Davis Everton are not moving to kirkby in three years time,no deals have been signed and there is a hell of a lot more obstacles than ’just’ planning permission to negotiate before kirkby is a done deal and if you are so bored at people trying to get to the bottom of what is the best thing for the future of this magnificent historical club of ours well its pretty obvious why you voted yes,you liked the pretty pictures the club so impartially included in the voting pack,go back to your videogames.
danny smith
134   Posted 10/09/2007 at 18:49:21

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Im enjoying the debate, but gerrad (i want to go to kirkby so much) madden is doing my head in, why are you are so in love with this idea, you got to be on the wageroll at the club not even the the few. well one lad in work who voted yes that i know, have your unending love of kirkby and the new 50,000 ohh and expandlble to 60,000 (should be fun getting home) stadium.
Neil McKinney
135   Posted 10/09/2007 at 19:23:11

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Have to agree with Dave.

Paul Davis I understand where you are coming from and I am not interested in debating the validity of the vote. It happened, the YES vote had a majority (however small) so the decision was made. However, where I agree with Dave is that the Kirkby deal is not yet signed. The vote was so that the board could move forward and whatever time there is before the deal is signed is left for anyone who wants to debate or campaign to do so. I agreed with the move to Kirkby based on what info I had, but I am more than happy for those with the time and inclination to continue the search for other options. Good on them I say.

What I do find boring is constantly going over issues like the vote validity and the integrity of BK & KW. Put the effort into finding a better alternative rather than trying to rubbish the current offer. That’s what the undecided wanted all along, not to be convinced that they were being duped.

If you don’t like the stadium debate, don’t read articles that are clearly about the stadium debate. There is a nice article about the new squad that’s quite good, read that instead.

COYB
Dave Lynch
136   Posted 10/09/2007 at 19:20:57

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G Madden.
All we ever get from you on this subject is smug remarks.
I have asked you before on this subject to back up with facts that the promises BK & BW spout will be delivered.
You can’t though can you ? It’s all conjecture and predictions based on not one piece of evidence or fact.
If i have to sit next to smug bastards like you at the Tesco dome, then i would rather stay away.
Then again 40 odd years of support counts for fuck all does it ?
Dave Wilson
137   Posted 10/09/2007 at 19:10:33

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The day the vote result was leaked Evertonians, even life long Evertonians expressed a sense of betrayal, they felt the club were planning on turning their backs on them
Many vowed they would vote with their feet
It may have escaped peoples notice but even taking into account the 4,000 obstructed views there were 3,000 perfectly good seats vacant against Blackburn

The protest has already begun.

As of 10 minutes ago the OS was still trying to flog seats Against the Mancs, Against the Mancs ? dispite having what is generaly felt to be our most promising start for years.
what more evidence do people need ?

How on earth are we going to even 1/2 fill a 50-60 thousand seater stadium when some of the most dedicated of Evertonians have already thrown their hand in ?

Dont say they are not proper supporters, that merely perpetuates the finger pointing - in both directions

somethings radically wrong, and Kirkby needs kicking into touch before the whole situation becomes irreversable
Tony Marsh
138   Posted 10/09/2007 at 19:39:01

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Dave Lynch thats exactly how I feel mate.I reckon I will keep away for 2 reasons. One is disgust at Kenwright and the board for taking us to Kirkby. The other is having to sit next to people like Madden. They will be the other reason the club is on a retail park in K town.
Dave Lynch
139   Posted 10/09/2007 at 19:52:31

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It’s ok Tony.
He can sit their in his seat and survey all he has created.
Then count the number of empty seats. Should take him a while that.
Then wallow in his own self importance. LOL (as he so fondly puts it).
Billy Brad
140   Posted 10/09/2007 at 19:59:18

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Nice one Lynchy lad.
Some of the crap that is coming out of these yes voters or kopites make you chuckle. Every one should know by now how good EFC are at cocking things up, so watch this space Madden and co.
Gerard Madden
141   Posted 10/09/2007 at 19:52:10

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Danny Smith - very hilarious calling me ’Gerard I want to go to Kirkby so much Madden’.

Like ALL yes voters I voted yes with a heavy heart, not a heavy heart with Long Lane in mind, or Speke, the tiny loop (no bigger than GP only worse with dangerous busy roads hugging the site), or Gillmoss but with the dear old lady very much on my mind - nothing else. I will miss her so much but now the vote has been done and dusted i’m very enthusistic in making Kirkby work - with Sir Terry Leahy on board viewing it as very much his own pet project I can’t see it fail, the huge Labour majority knowsley council will surely see it sail through the planning process then Sir Terry’s friends in the Labour govt will nod through the Labour councils enthusiastic and ambitious regeneration programme for a deprived area. Don’t forget the govt has a lot to thank Sir Terry Leahy for as he’s the principal partner of the govt’s precious ’new deal’ programmes for the long term unemployed - of which Kirkby (unfortunatly) has many. :(
Paul Davis
142   Posted 10/09/2007 at 19:47:34

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Just back from my video games Dave, back to the short sighted dick heads who think that anybody who voted yes are some kind of idiots who are influenced by spin and glossy brochures well your wrong, the people who voted yes did so for many reasons and I for one had made my mind up a long time before any glossy brochures come through my letter box. Its unbelievable some people just cant accept that there are people who genuinely believe that this move is right for the club, for fuck sake we are not proposing moving to a different city its 4 miles away, We are in the 21st century and our ground belongs in the last century and until someone comes up with genuine alternative, I am happy to move and the more you slag people off for voting yes the more I disagree with your hopeless campaign. Without money no alternative it is as simple as that no money no other alternative so get that into your pea brains. 36000 ballots sent out and 15000 returned with a tick for yes well I am no maths genius but it?s a lot more returned with a tick for No, you are so blinkered you cant even admit defeat in the ballot or fucking stupid you cant even do your sums. And how much money has this keep Everton in the city got to stretch a campaign out, how much money does the so called alternative sites got, not a penny bunch of amateurs who talk a good fight but when it comes to it they have no answers just emails and message board rants.
tony grimes
143   Posted 10/09/2007 at 20:26:08

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Do us all a favour and close this shite post down it is fucking boring, Tony Marsh you are the bigest bore on this site along with the other sad bastard madden fuck me I never realised Everton had so many fucking butes fuck me imagine going for a bevy with some of these gobshites, I bet your birds are having affairs, get a life
chris taggart
144   Posted 10/09/2007 at 20:23:58

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correct me if im wrong but didnt KEIOC at their first public meeting hold ther own ballot where only 1300 participants voted no out of the alledged 4000 who attended, a result that mirrors the actual ballot dont you think?



a few questions for you

why should bill want to sell?

Did bestway stand to loose the loop anyway due to a CPO because of project jenifer?

if Kirkby is doomed to failure how will bill and bully profit from a failed venture?

what would be the dispersal rate from the loop both normal and emergency? (important as we wont get a safety certificate without this rate being a reasonable time)

if LCC think they might own the KIRKBY land why has it taken so long to come out and wouldnt you have thought that bradly would want to have that confirmed before raising it at the meeting?

Tom Hughes
145   Posted 10/09/2007 at 20:30:52

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Paul Davis:
Think your a bit OTT mate..... Where are KEIOC ranting on here? Which poster is their representative on this forum.... or any other you know? You seem to be the only one getting flustered. No answers.....? please, that’s irony personified. KEIOC managed to muster 2/3 of the number of votes that the club did after the club had 18 months of preparation, their own and Tescos resources, and the local media and propoganda machine tied up. Not bad for amateurs with a few weeks of their spare time to dedicate.
Dave Lynch
146   Posted 10/09/2007 at 20:43:54

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Paul.
I will debate with anyone on an adult level. I have no problem if you voted yes and are sincere about your reasons.
But i wont stand for it being shoved down my throat by smug over-bearing sycophants like Madden.
Dave Lynch
147   Posted 10/09/2007 at 20:50:50

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And i’m not a member of any group.
I’m an individual with.
MY OWN OPINIONS. I just feel this is wrong.
And i havn’t come up with any sums.
Neil McKinney
148   Posted 10/09/2007 at 20:52:34

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There was some debate going on here somewhere, but it appears to have turned into name calling as usual.

Close this down it’s going nowhere now!
Bob Turner
149   Posted 10/09/2007 at 20:35:47

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I’ve asked this before, and I’ll ask it again (though I still won’t get an answer): all you "No" voters who are going to refuse to go to Kirkby "out of principle", why? What’s more important, your "principles" or supporting your team?

Do you not realise that your proposed absence is going to create the situation you say you don’t want i.e. an Everton team which struggles through lack of support?

"I don’t want Everton to wither away and die, but I’m buggered if I’m going to go to Kirkby just because BK and KW took us there". Is that really supporting your team? IMO, I don’t think so.
Tom Hughes
150   Posted 10/09/2007 at 20:46:16

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Chris:
I’ll attempt to respond to your questions....The count for the attendance at St Georges Hall was done by the Hall’s security staff. They controlled the flow, and counted everyone through. If you attended you may have seen a bloke with a counter. The straw poll was a last minute inclusion, but only so many slips were provided. Again this was counted independently.

As far as why should BK want to sell..... I can’t speak for him. He has always stated that he wants investment, presumably as he cannot provide sufficient funds himself.


I don’t believe Bestway are going to be CPO’d. But don’t know for certain.
HOK have produced figures for this. These are the biggest stadium designer/planners in the world. There are several more congested sites than the Loop. The Emirates for instance is sandwiched between 2 railway lines. The Millenium hugs a river and tight city blocks. The outline ideas say this stadium will have at least 2 completely open elevations. The site is also close to large local emergency utilities. Dispersal in terms of access to public transport will be unmatchable anywhere else in or around the city. It will also radiate in all directions which cannot happen at Kirkby for instance

I don’t think Bradley raised it at the meeting.... someone else mentioned it I think, and he responded. The whole covenant thing may not be a massive issue. There is further mention that the Archdiocese owns the land.... I can’t say for certain.
D-M Lloyd
151   Posted 10/09/2007 at 20:57:09

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If that was a true representation of what was said at the KEIOC meeting on Saturday then I am absolutely disgusted.

WB should not be surprised at all that the Club are reluctant to deal with him, bearing in mind his recent comments (as per the article above & elsewhere) and his attitude towards them.

For those who are intent on insulting fellow Evertonians, ranking themselves as a better Blue, you should be ashamed of yourselves. I know that im ashamed of you.
D-M Lloyd
152   Posted 10/09/2007 at 21:46:32

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Tom Hughes - KEIOC managed to muster 2/3 of the number of votes that the club did after the club had 18 months of preparation, their own and Tescos resources, and the local media and propoganda machine tied up. Not bad for amateurs with a few weeks of their spare time to dedicate.

You are incorrectly attributing every ’no’ vote to the influence of KEIOC.
Tom Hughes
153   Posted 10/09/2007 at 21:55:25

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D-M Lloyd:
I think it’s fair to say they played a major roll in it. Bestway literally only presented anything the day before the vote started, and its only images coming when the vote was almost over. It was Trevor Skempton who initially proposed the Bestway site, who also supports KEIOC objectives. Granted some voters will have simply voted no without any external influence, not everyone has internet access, and KEIOC’s coverage in the local media was tiny compared to the pro-kirkby campaign.
D-M Lloyd
154   Posted 10/09/2007 at 22:21:10

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Tom Hughes - I think it?s fair to say they played a major roll in it. Bestway literally only presented anything the day before the vote started, and its only images coming when the vote was almost over. It was Trevor Skempton who initially proposed the Bestway site, who also supports KEIOC objectives. Granted some voters will have simply voted no without any external influence, not everyone has internet access, and KEIOC?s coverage in the local media was tiny compared to the pro-kirkby campaign.

Again, you assume that every ’no’ vote can be attributed to KEIOC and/or the loop proposal.

That is as naive as suggesting that every ’yes’ vote is attributed to what EFC released.

Neither statement is correct, nor should it be suggested they are.

Evertonians arent stupid, we can (and do) make informed decisions, not just do as any particular group tell us in the loudest voice.
Matt Willey
155   Posted 10/09/2007 at 22:11:00

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"with Sir Terry Leahy on board viewing it as very much his own pet project I can?t see it fail, the huge Labour majority knowsley council will surely see it sail through the planning process then Sir Terry?s friends in the Labour govt will nod through the Labour councils enthusiastic and ambitious regeneration programme for a deprived area. Don?t forget the govt has a lot to thank Sir Terry Leahy for as he?s the principal partner of the govt?s precious ?new deal? programmes for the long term unemployed - of which Kirkby (unfortunatly) has many. :( "

Thanks for that little party political / Tesco love-in outburst Gerard... in the meantime ...’Yippee for Walton’ eh ?
Tony Marsh
156   Posted 10/09/2007 at 22:23:01

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Bob Turner I will answer your question mate.I admire your loyalty Bob and I have been a loyal fan myself for over 35 years .If the club decides Kirkby is the best option and goes a head with the move against the wishes of a large section of the fan base then I dont think the club can ever be the same.The EVERTON that we grew up watching and following around the country will be gone.I keep hearing the comment that fans will always follow the club where ever it plays but if its playing in Kirkby how can it be the same club.Same team in the same colour shirts yes but no way the same club.We will be the Bastard child of Kieth Wyness and once he has nursed it through the early years it will be goodnight God bless.I dont want any part of this move so on grounds of pricnciple I will stay away.I will go to some of the away games and watch the home games on TV but I point blank refuse to take one step in to Kirkby on match days and I know plenty more who feel the same way.Are we all wrong Bob?Is this how it was supposed to turn out? We dont want or need you lot say some of our fans.I think thats bad judgment on thier behalf. Your going to need all you can if this move goes through.
Tony Miller
157   Posted 10/09/2007 at 22:41:18

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Well err ? Fuck it why bother!!!
Matt Willey
158   Posted 10/09/2007 at 22:34:17

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D-M Lloyd... "Evertonians arent stupid" ...

Actually it greatly depends on your definition of stupid... where exactly are you setting the benchmark ?

We are all different...joined only by the love of one football club; some fans like me are pretty stupid, others maybe not so. I wouldn’t have precluded anyone from a vote, but then I wouldn’t have held a vote because my stupid ethics would have precluded me from doing that in the first place...

It was however (in my stupid opinion) utter madness to throw the future of the club into the hands of the people on the street without providing them with an extensive, exhaustive analysis of EVERY OPTION STUDIED over the last 5 years, along with some indication as to WHO THESE STUDIES WERE CONDUCTED WITH... The ’average’ maybe even ’stupid’ fan would then be suitably equipped as to make a sensible, rationalised or even ’stupid’ judgement upon which they could cast their vote accordingly.

Instead, what do we get? errrmm.. no details, just NO PLAN B !

So my question is, and I ask this cordially... WHO is treating WHO as stupid?
j monaghan
159   Posted 10/09/2007 at 23:33:34

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with reference to Kieth Wyness getting a bonus, surly Warren Bradley gets a bonus too??
Kevin Mitchell
160   Posted 10/09/2007 at 21:40:25

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Please help me, do any of you yes voters really believe your going to get a top class stadium, filled with 50,000 people, full corporate boxes delivering an EXTRA 10 million for players so we can keep up with the big boys, if it’s built outside the city.
At the moment we hold our own in Liverpool but that will be a thing of the past if this disaster takes place.
I can just picture that closet madden guy with his red shirt on laughing at us.
Matt Willey
161   Posted 10/09/2007 at 23:52:32

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J Monaghan... Erm no, well not legitimately at least... Bradley might get a meal out if he’s lucky - but it won’t be from our lot. There would be fucking outrage if any politician got a ’bonus’ on our council tax, mate.

Talking of Wyness / bonus - I bet he is on about £500k a year ... which would mean he’s worth half a Gary Naysmith ...
chris taggart
162   Posted 11/09/2007 at 07:29:43

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If you choose to follow your emotions(which you are entitled to do)and say that i wont be renewing my season ticket for kirkby, or wont be setting foot inside the new stadium,will this not be a self fufilling prophecy?

Whilst this season is some what make or break for moyes, required to banish the blip of 17th(i am a moyes supporter BTW) we have made progress and i see regular champions league qualification as a part of our future,

if by the time the new stadium opens its doors we are playing regular european football ,having successful cup runs break into the "ahem" top four "ahem" consistantly then why couldnt we attract 50000.00 + per week wherever we play

one thing i do know is we stand a greater chance if those who are saying "i’m not going" do go

magicjuan
163   Posted 11/09/2007 at 09:00:22

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Tony Marsh, your last point is one I made the day of the vote. I had gone to bed the night before having seen the first rumours of the result. When it was confirmed by Sky the next day something had changed, to me Everton as I had been brought up to love had ceased to exist and a corporate whore of second rate ambition had replaced it. No thing to do with Kirkby, it was all about how I believed the ’vote’ had been handled. I don’t think I could go to kirkby, it represents second rate clubs, the second tier outside the ’top 4’, bolton’s, wigans etc, certainly not what we espouse to and not what we deserve. I think of jester hats and foam fingers with ’GO BLUES’ written on it for the one time visiting ’fans’. And all this because KW wants some pie money and corporate hospitality. My last visit to Goodison didn’t see me given a hard hat for my protection. The state of the old lady isn’t great but it’s a football ground FFS and surely there are enough years left in her for us to find a less controversial site for our new ground? The way KW & BK handled this project was with contempt for the supporters, not respect, and as such they will be remembered as the ones who not only took Everton out of the city but Evertonians out of Everton FC !
Dave Wilson
164   Posted 11/09/2007 at 09:25:46

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Bob Turner : You raise a valid question and I?d like to expand on the answer Tony Marsh gave you

It?s true, many diehard blues are refusing to go to Kirkby, they feel that a move will take away the clubs identity and will no longer be the club they have always supported, it will no longer be the club that represents them, or as Tony put it, it will no longer be "their" Everton

Try to understand, these guys love the club, but they feel a huge sense of betrayal, lets face it they have been up front all along, they have always said they would never go to Kirkby.
The custodians of our club , along with the 15,000 who voted yes Knew this, but by going against their express wishes, they presumably feel they can get along without them. They cant
Now, all of a sudden the people who stated clearly BEFORE the vote, that they would not go to Kirkby are being portayed sore loosers

Its like a marrage mate, some people could forgive their wife betraying them and try again, others wouldnt have her back at any price
Brian Wolf
165   Posted 11/09/2007 at 10:04:23

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If BK and KW had this "contempt for supporters" as you say, they would just bloody well have moved and not given us, the fans, the vote that they did.

At least there better in that respect than some chairman, chief execs. If my bosses decided to move the company 10 miles from my home instead of the 3 that it is now I wouldn’t even get a say in the matter.

The problem you people have is that the "majority" and I have to keep saying "majority" voted to move, you can say "but yes it wasn’t the majority because 10,000 or 11,000 didn’t vote." That’s not the Yes voters fault, if they couldn’t be bothered to vote that’s there fault. We’re on the move possibly, it’s not set in stone yet, but the option is there. So get over it, shut up, get behind the team for as longs as we are at GP and stop going on about it. It’s out of your hands now and the more you lot and KEIOC realise that the better it will be for fans and supporters of the club.

You can go on about KEIOC not being political, but of course you are, now that you’ve aligned yourself with Slippery Warren Bradley you can be nothing but political. In a way you are militant as Yes voters can’t get a word in edgeways and get shot down by you naysayers as traitors, scabs, not true Evertonians (and you can say that you have never said this but it’s been said, believe me I’ve been on the end of it from a few of you KEIOC supporters).
Get a grip, support the team and give up your futile Dad’s army (we will not be moved) campaign.
magicjuan
166   Posted 11/09/2007 at 10:33:26

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That last bit got me , sure it wasn’t supposed to be we shall not be moved? And the use of ’you’ isn’t constructive in the plural is it?
If this ’deal of the century’ was exactly that then a vote wouldn’t have been necessary, the board should have had the courage of their convictions and done as you say your company would have done, instead they obfuscated and laid the decision on the supporters so there was no blame on themselves. A nice gesture but with no authority and that is where the contempt comes from, not from actually giving us a vote, but in the way it was presented with obscure facts and a heavy handed bias fuelled by scaremongering with extremely little in the way of opportunities for balanced information to be presented. At the next general election if only Labour could issue a manifesto but the tories and lib dems couldn’t and labour scraped through, would you be happy with that as a democracy? Don’t get all mardy on me because I am posting my opinion, it seems the yes voters are the ones getting uppitty about the fact the ’debate’ still going on. There is no ’fault’ attached to yes voters from me, the fault lies with the club and it’s disregard for presenting options to those who could vote (remember it didn’t take place smoothly either)by having such a one sided forum for what is the biggest decision in our lifetime certainly.
If we do end up in Kirkby then that ’we’ becomes something completely different to the ’we’ that exists now, truly, all that has gone before has to be replaced and a ’new and exciting, modern’ version of EFC has to take it’s place, one that has an extra 10 mill to compete with manure etc, that, ’if’ KW new revenue streams fulfill his 100% projections. Unfortunately all the baguettes and chablis KW can provide wouldn’t be enough to take the sour taste left in my mouth from the way this club has discarded it’s identity and it’s fabric and opted to jump in bed with 2 organisations that play it like a fool.
Time will tell, but we’re still allowed to comment and all the slagging off in the world won’t change the fact that the decision taken by the board has choked the life from the one thing I thought could never be taken away, the solid basis of it’s support.
Well done!!
Tom Hughes
167   Posted 11/09/2007 at 10:44:57

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Brian,
Who has the right to tell anyone to stop campaigning? Are you telling me every vote/ballot ever has resulted in the best result? KEIOC believe that in this case it most certainly hasn’t. A 41% NO vote, given the heavily weighted campaign would suggest that they feel vindicated. Anything like a balanced vote with equal resources, time and media coverage would have seen a different result. I too have received threats from pro-kirkby supporters, so it goes both ways. That however should not detract from the main issue. We all want what is best for this club...... no-one can say with any confidence that they know anything like enough to make that judgement with the information so far, hence the massive number of abstensions. That being the case, KEOIC and whoever else have the right to persue all options, I mean Bestway have only had 2 months, it took Tesco 18 months to show us anything.

BTW, If KEIOC are political what Party do they represent, what political agenda have they got? Both the heads of Labour and the Lib dems attended the meeting for obvious reasons, it’s about keep EFC on their patch, they are both EFC season ticket holders, so they would be more than eligible to attend regardless. Neither are members of KEIOC, so it’s a ridiculous notion altogether.
Gerard Madden
168   Posted 11/09/2007 at 11:29:37

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Out of those who voted:

60% ’YES
40% ’NO’

11,000 ’Don’t cares’

:yawns:
Paul Okell
169   Posted 11/09/2007 at 13:01:21

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I totally blame the Liverpool County Council for causing the leaving of Liverpool by Everton. The same incompetent people caused the Matthew Street festival to go belly up and the 2008 capital of culture is about to become the biggest joke of the century. Lets hope something can be done now at the 11th hour to keep us in Liverpool, with all due respects to Kirkby as an outlying district you dont have the infrastructure of a city to support a great club, you dont have the transport network, and though I would regard you as part of Greater Liverpool you are not in the heart of this great city. Let us hope we can stay but I dont blame Kenwright Wyness and all the others for this move I blame the politicians who run the council for failing to come up with the goods when they did so for the RS over the road.
Tom Hughes
170   Posted 11/09/2007 at 13:30:49

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If the club had come up with the goods for Kings Dock which the council gave us the opportunity for, we wouldn’t be in the predicament we are in. The council are not obliged to look after EFC’s best interests, the club are though.
Peter Rigby
171   Posted 11/09/2007 at 13:33:50

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COVENTRY CITY/STOKE CITY/MANCHESTER CITY
Common link? They all moved grounds WITHOUT consulting their fans, all of them quite considerable distance from their origins, please guys if you?re not now going to Kirkby just drop this rant and let TRUE Evertonians, WHO will follow their team anywhere get on with the proper job in hand of supporting the team.
magicjuan
172   Posted 11/09/2007 at 14:13:03

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Peter Rigby, if you don?t consider me to be a ?TRUE? (your emphasis) Everonian then unfortunately I have to reciprocate.
Coventry = Tesco, and not gone down too much of a success there. Stoke = so what? Man City moved to a much better stadium than the one we?ve been shown pictures of.
If you?re happy then be happy, but FFS don?t dare to say I?m not a true Evertonian because I hold a different viewpoint you sad deluded git. Grow up!!
Steve Lyth
173   Posted 11/09/2007 at 14:05:13

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Tom Hughes and Magicjuan dont appear to be ranting Peter, they seem to be making their points with some eloquence.

This debate is a long way from being over, a good pointer will be if that fat bloater in the Main Stand starts singing, I will take my cue from that and long may that continue not to be the case.
Steve Lyth
174   Posted 11/09/2007 at 14:25:25

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Oh No, now look what you gone and done magicjuan !!!!
Colin Linnett
175   Posted 11/09/2007 at 14:25:55

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Mmm,Warren Bradley says,if i was in charge then Liverpool would not of got Stanley Park.
Well have they not just resubmitted a planning permission to the council,as they have changed the design,and by Law they have too.Well Mr Bradley,youu,re in charge now,so time to stand by your word and fuck them off!!
Tom Hughes
176   Posted 11/09/2007 at 14:48:48

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I think they’re way too far down the road for him to be able to do anything..... unless of course they violate existing planning permission too heavily. He said at the previous meeting that he was averse to taking up any park space in this way. And probably would be if EFC looked at Walton Hall park even. He said that was just his personal opinion regarding parks/green space and has made no secret of it in the press etc. Essentially he inherited the Liverpool project, I think he also harboured some thoughts about groundshare also, and thought there may be some leverage there, as was mooted at one point.
Dave Reade
177   Posted 11/09/2007 at 15:19:57

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As regards pushing through Stanley Park plans, Liverpool are run by a couple of rich sharp multi-millionaire Yank businessmen who know how to make a buck or two and are able to push through what they want, they have considerable wealth and money talks when you want something.
Everton are run by a Theatre Producer with no great considerable fortune of his own or business acumen, he lives in the world of lovie dovies treading the boards of the West End. He has filled the board with cronies and yes men, he has no willingness whatsoever to allow an outsider to buy or buy into the club despite the fact he says he is looking for investment 24/7. We are not a PLC so we cannot be bought without his consent. He wont give up the reins, the power trip of owning Everton feeds his ego to much. I used to cringe when I saw that Joseph programme when Graham Norton introduced him as our Chairman.
Paul Turner
178   Posted 11/09/2007 at 15:43:58

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Just a thought - what is KEIOC’s standpoint on the possibility (however unlikely) of a groundshare with LFC? Would they regard this as preferable to Kirkby?
magicjuan
179   Posted 11/09/2007 at 15:52:19

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steve lyth, my apologies, I did break my own personal rule, but of the countless posts here and on other boards I have never doubted anyones credentials as to being an evertonian and never had mine questioned, until then. The fact that we are involved in a ’debate’ regarding the club should be proof positive that you qualify as an evertonian,(obvious r/s impostors aside!!), and I believe there are no ’better’ or ’less’ evertonians, being one puts you top of the pile for a start!! Apologies again and to Mr Rigby.
Gerard Madden
180   Posted 11/09/2007 at 15:56:42

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Paul Turner - ’Just a thought - what is KEIOC?s standpoint on the possibility (however unlikely) of a groundshare with LFC? Would they regard this as preferable to Kirkby?’


I have no idea on that mate, just a guess like but with KEIOC being such staunch blues like all of us are i’d guess that the prospect of groundshare would turn their stomachs - i’d prefer a relocation to Timbuktu to be honest.
Steve Lyth
181   Posted 11/09/2007 at 16:02:48

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Magic, no need to apolagise to me mate, I hear you loud and clear.
Its just a shame that its got down to "Im a bigger Blue than you cos",
I think we will stand devided on this issue right up until something actually happens.Personaly I would have taken a groundshare in the City every time .
Paul Okell
182   Posted 11/09/2007 at 16:08:56

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Dave Reade: Are you saying we as a club will never move onto the next level without a takeover from a multi billion pound consortium?
Are those guys from Dubai still looking to invest?
Why is it when we hear of all these overseas guys looking to buy clubs Everton never get a mention, is there a NOT FOR SALE sign at Goodison Park.
Jay Brennan
183   Posted 11/09/2007 at 16:00:17

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Warren Bradley is like a kid who takes the ball home because he does not get his own way. Re: Stanley Park, if he was council leader it would never have happened. Does Mr. Bradley not realise he is not autonomous and in a democratic society a vote is taken not just the council leaders decision being final. Truth is LCC sat on their backside and did not offer land to EFC until the "final hour" and then shitty sites who anyone with a bit of common sense would realise are not feasible. Bradley says he will drag things through court as a delay tactic, get real the fans have voted and it is YES to carry on with the process. Put your dummy back in your gob and shut up!
Dave Reade
184   Posted 11/09/2007 at 16:12:33

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Why do you bring up groundshare Liverpool are not interested in ground share whatsoever the Yanks have said that categorically.
I also think it would not look good for us the RS would fill it and we wouldnt (thats an unfortunate fact)
Dave Reade
185   Posted 11/09/2007 at 16:17:08

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A reply to Paul Okell, the only person I recall buying into Everton was Fortress which was a farce and the biggest con job I ever heard of. Kenwright probably replies to them Nigerian email scams promising you 500 million from some dead general if you slip them 3 grand to send it you.l
Steve Lyth
186   Posted 11/09/2007 at 16:25:01

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Madden raised the subject, as someone pro KEIOC I thought I would give him a response
Steve Lyth
187   Posted 11/09/2007 at 16:27:42

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Sorry that should have read Mr Paul Turner and Madden
Neil McKinney
188   Posted 11/09/2007 at 16:31:54

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I’m sorry but no way would I take a groundshare "in the city" than go to Kirkby! (whatever "in the city" means as you could be inside the city boundary and still be further away from GP than Kirkby)

Now you taking the p**s! I can’t believe that people would entertain literally being the little brother to RS instead of moving 5 mile to a (granted, not awe inspiring) 50,000 seater stadium in Kirkby. Whether you believe in Kirkby or not, groundshare was and still is a non-starter.
Trudy Ireland
189   Posted 11/09/2007 at 17:00:37

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Sorry. Cant really comment on this. Living in Plymouth I dont get to go to many home games (about 5 a season)_so in regard to stadium issues i am rather at a loss for words. leave it to the locals or for those who attend regularly. As a supporter of thirty years but living in Devon since the "first kendall years" it saddens me to know that we are to leave our home of the past 115 years. It was always going to be a heated argument on where we would end up. I also have noticed on recent topics people seem to at odds with each other regarding certain issues. Whatever your mindsets remember we are all on the same side and most of all want what is best for this club. No point in petty arguments and behaving like adolescent juveniles. This is a grown ups club. Always has been, always will be. So lets start behaving in the proper manner.
Dave Moorcroft
190   Posted 11/09/2007 at 20:20:43

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I have spun my head round so many times with the figures that the people who voted yes keep throwing at this website,But what i cant work out is that 36,000 ballot papers were sent out,Our average home gate is 36,000,We have between 12,000 and 14,000 walk ups every home game,Because we only have 22,000 season ticket holders,The walk ups were not entitled to vote so who did they send the 12,000 not entitled ballot papers to.I do hope they did not use the data base of walk ups and classed them as the dont cares who didnt vote.15,000 out of an average gate of 36,000 is not a majority.
Gerard Madden
191   Posted 11/09/2007 at 21:33:34

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Dave Moorcroft, no need to give yourself a headache about vote figures, it’s quite simple really - 11,000 fans apparantly don’t care where we move or whether we move or not, out of those who actually DID vote 60% voted yay and only 40% voted nay, it’s quite clear. Chill, relax and put the kettle on.
Dave Moorcroft
192   Posted 11/09/2007 at 21:58:40

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As i said yesterday Mr Madden,You talk total CRAP.Look at my figures and explain.Not just your stupid 60/40 shit.
Tony Miller
193   Posted 11/09/2007 at 22:20:00

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Dave M.
As it was the last 3 years season ticket holders I suppose you can add another thousand or so for those who did not renew this year. In addition a large number of the walk up would have a vote as many will be members of evertonia to ensure ticket availability. Again this was for the last 3 years. This would account for a large percentage of the other 11.000 votes.

The bottom line is those who were offered the vote are in the main regular match attendees from the last 3 years.

I am not saying all regular match attendees will have got a vote but as many have said however it was done holes could be picked.

60 % of those bothered to vote said Yes, 40% said No, But around 29% of those who could vote for one reason or another did not bother. This is probably the most disappointing aspect. Yes some may have been away, moved ect but surely not 11,000.

Anyway this is one thing we cannot chance think about yes change no.

By the way I am still awake.
Dave Moorcroft
194   Posted 11/09/2007 at 23:05:25

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Re:Tony miller,Are you saying we have a fluctuating clientelle of differente season ticket holders to vastly effect the vote,And Evertonia members the like,I am an Evertonia member and i did not get a vote,So we could assume there were others like me who did not get a vote,Until the club shows us the figures and how they distrebuted the ballot papers and to what perticular sectors of supporters i will never trust them to care for my club.You say the dissapointing aspect is 11,000 coud not be bothered to vote on such a momentus decision in their clubs history,I would say they did not exist in the first place,The maths just dont add up.By the way I WILL WATCH EVERTON ANYWHERE.
Dave Moorcroft
195   Posted 11/09/2007 at 23:37:01

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Clean shoes,I have a dog and it shits all over kirkby college playing fields every day,At least 4 times a day,Where they plan the new tesco arena.Anyway you should watch where your walking you blind ****.
Bert Trautmann
196   Posted 12/09/2007 at 02:16:15

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Tony Marsh:

"it?s what all real Evertonians want"

Dude! who died and made you king of the zombies!?!
Steve Lyth
197   Posted 12/09/2007 at 09:05:02

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Bert, did you break your neck getting that out lad.
The NO voters are alive and well, Tony is just one of us.
Brian Wolf
198   Posted 12/09/2007 at 12:01:42

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How dare they call themselves "Real Evertonians" though Steve.

Liam Young
199   Posted 12/09/2007 at 12:40:53

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I voted yes too, and am not a mug, i care about my club, and we need a move for the good of the club, who cares what liverpool are doing???, we are everton football club, and you say you were surprised by everyone around you voting no in that environment?, well you went to a KEIOC meeting most of them did vote no, but the majority is still yes. Leaving goodison is not easy, and neither will i be happy to say goodbye, but we NEED to move to keep up with the premiership, everton have made a lot of progress with moyes, and the board, we have finished high in the league, broken transfer records for decent players, we have built a new training ground fit for a big club like us, 4 miles means this much?, i wonder how many of these people like me went in the 90s?, you would have something to moan about then. 4 miles is not a big difference, we need this move, and i just wish everton fans stuck together, all KEIOC are doing now is making a split. Stand up for your team, cheer them on and be counted, stop arguing about 4 miles.
Brian Wolf
200   Posted 12/09/2007 at 13:10:40

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I went in the 90’s, it was poor. In the great scheme of things 4 miles is not a lot and I would gladly travel the 4 extra if it brings in the affluence that has been projected.
Roy Warne
201   Posted 12/09/2007 at 13:33:20

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another piece of propoganda by the club telling everyone it is four miles...yes if we were crows it would be, but we are not, we have to take roads and pavements and I have clocked it and it is SIX miles.
Steve Lyth
202   Posted 12/09/2007 at 15:21:53

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Wolfy lad, your such a wag aint ya
Liam Young
203   Posted 12/09/2007 at 15:39:53

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6 miles??, damn i better grow some wings and fast. An extra 2 miles?, thats like travelling to australia its that far.
I will focus more on the job at hand of getting behind the team, and let our excellent board deal with the kirky stadium.
The only moan i have about everton today is their dealings with tickets for the Metallist game, me and a friend had to book seperately cos and try about 30 times to get seats together beacuse there are errors when you book 2 tickets with 2 memberships, even when you phone they couldnt do it.
Come on blues, ticket service is pants!
Dave Reade
204   Posted 12/09/2007 at 16:01:51

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I liked the images of the Kings Dock Stadium but I thought it would be a traffic nightmare due to its proximity to the river, as all traffic has to come in from one side.
I have reservations now about Kirkby due to the lack of trains and buses and the fact that nearly everyone will enter from the M57/Fazakerley or M57/East Lancs as the motorway traffic and the non motorway traffic will meet at thes points.
The only other way in is the country roads from Ormskirk.
Do, when they propose these stadia, they look at the transport issue. Probably not because I cant see Blue Bill or Tesco Terry getting the 92 bus or the 12:00 from Hunts Cross.
I would also imagine you cant get a bus or train across town to Kirkby (ie from the South end of Liverpool)you have to go either into the city centre or get on somewhere along the route from the city to Kirby.
What i am trying to say if you go by public transport from Speke or Halewood you have to go in a big loop into town and out again, which must add about an hour to the trip plus the cost is more expensive.
Has Tesco also thought about its customers on a Saturday who aren’t interested in football. How the hell are they going to shop, the carpark and surrounding roads will be chocabloc. I would park in Tesco go in by a stick of gum get a receipt go the match and then tell the car park attendant I have been shopping pal here is my receipt now let me out.
chris keightley
205   Posted 12/09/2007 at 17:46:11

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What the hells going on still debating this topic from what i have read we are staring at a afc wimbledon scenario, im thinking of setting my own site up for the no voters www.bluesinthecity.com will i get any followers?????
magicjuan
206   Posted 12/09/2007 at 19:06:35

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Chris, I’d certainly visit!!
Gerard Madden
207   Posted 12/09/2007 at 19:30:37

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Chris Keightley try - www.keioc.net - that site might have what you’re looking for, unfortunately the forum on there is about as dead as the proverbial dodo with only a handful of people bothering to post. The Main site itself seldom gets updated - a very poor lonely site considering the cause it’s promoting is (according to them) so popular.
Robert Carney
208   Posted 12/09/2007 at 20:33:18

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Madden. what is the going rate for apologist?s these days. It would be nice to know if it is paid by the word, hour, one off payment. It is obviousit is not by content. Everthing you say is either repeated, false or total shite.
Gerard Madden
209   Posted 12/09/2007 at 21:43:35

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Robert Carney - What’s wrong with stating the truth that gives you a problemo - 60% voted ’yes’ and only 40% ’no’? What’s wrong with stating that 11,000 fans don’t care where we play? These are factoids not ’false’ or ’total shite’. Get over it.
Steve Lyth
210   Posted 12/09/2007 at 21:51:07

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Madden your repetitive and attention seeking, try announcing who you are in the brick, the oak or the winslow and see how you get over it, ya prick.
Gerard Madden
211   Posted 12/09/2007 at 22:14:14

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Steve Lyth - Most of the ’no’ voters are extremely repetitive on here, whinging and whining about the vote despite the fact it was well looked after by the highly reputable ERS no less. The ’no’ voters are very very very repetitive. Get over it.
Steve Lyth
212   Posted 12/09/2007 at 22:22:30

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There,s nothing to get over you silly man, nothings happened yet and untill it does we will continue to campaign for a better alternative.
I have not seen any whinging or whining from the beaten minority as you describe us, a lot of passion on the subject but very little of the latter. You are a gloating twat and bring nothing to the table but smug comments.
If you dont want to hear our dissenting opinions dont read them. Some of the Pro Kirkby voters on this forum make interesting and valid points but not you.
Do all of us No voters a favour, get some perspective, otherwise fuck off to noddy land where you belong.
Gerard Madden
213   Posted 12/09/2007 at 23:04:32

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Steve Lyth - you?ve called me there ?silly man?, ?gloating twat?, ?smug? and told me to ?fuck off? - those arn?t very nice things to say to someone who hasn?t used anything remotely like those words to anyone on here including you. All that I ever try to do on here is remind people of the facts of the situation from time to time and I will continue to do so - some people mischieviously choose to ignore those ?facts? and I don?t think they should. Get over it.
Brian Wolf
214   Posted 13/09/2007 at 08:53:00

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"I have not seen any whinging or whining from the beaten minority as you describe us, a lot of passion on the subject but very little of the latter."

I disagree Steve, all you lot ever do is whinge and whine.
Dave Lynch
215   Posted 13/09/2007 at 09:08:59

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Madden. Why don’t you take the hint and piss off with youre boring repetitive monologue.
Youre like a broken record.
Like Steve said, try youre tact in one of the boozers around the ground.
Youre smug attitude will get you the attention you seem to crave.
Steve Lyth
216   Posted 13/09/2007 at 11:04:39

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Oi Virginia, tell me one instance where I have whinged or whined ?
In fact outside of fairly constructive argument from everyone concerned with this issue,
please inform me which people you accuse of these tendancies ?
You and Madden have done a lot to get people at each others throats, you must be proud of your achievements across this forum.
Keep on spouting Foxy, I am a great believer of what comes around.
Brian Wolf
217   Posted 13/09/2007 at 12:10:50

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You’re very clever aren’t you Steve?

Calling me names like Virginia and Foxy (you must be peeing your pants as you write it down).

Anyway, as a polar opposite to KEIOC I will be setting up a KEAFNAMM website. Keep Everton Away From Nutters And Militant Madmen. Catchy!!!
Steve Lyth
218   Posted 13/09/2007 at 12:13:12

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To be honest Wolfy I did have a slight grin on my face as I wrote it, you still have not answered my questions tho eh and another thing, how are you going to qualify as a member of your proposed web site?
Phil Griffin
219   Posted 13/09/2007 at 11:35:31

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I don?t want to get in to any petty squabbles which it seems this thread has descended into, I would just like to make a point about people mainly on this site who seem to hate BK & KW ? for what reason I have no idea!

Magicjuan -

??The way KW & BK handled this project was with contempt for the supporters, not respect, and as such they will be remembered as the ones who not only took Everton out of the city but Evertonians out of Everton FC ! ??

I don?t think there is another Chairman in the land that would of given supporters a vote on the issue, other Chairmen thought he was stark raving mad ? he should be applauded not castrated.

Magicjuan -

??If this ?deal of the century? was exactly that then a vote wouldn?t have been necessary, the board should have had the courage of their convictions and done as you say your company would have done, instead they obfuscated and laid the decision on the supporters so there was no blame on themselves.??

Yeah right Magicjuan, I?m sure that would have gone down really well if no vote was offered. The level of abuse the board has received has been way over the top as it is; can you imagine what it would have been like with no vote?

It seems he cannot win, if they went ahead with no vote on the basis of having ?courage of their convictions? they would certainly have been vilified in all quarters. They offer the vote and it?s is still not good enough for some on the grounds that a glossy brochure has swayed the ?yes? voters judgement. I would assume most people who bothered to vote would of done so on more than a glossy brochure, to suggest otherwise just smacks of sour grapes.


Also, I keep reading articles from ?no? voters stating they don?t know one Evertonian who voted ?yes?. I can honestly say I know about 10-15 Evertonians where I work and only one was opposed to the move. If the vote had been a 51% majority for the ?no? voters you can bet your bottom dollar KEIOC would of claimed victory and demanded all talk of Kirkby be put to bed. The fact that the majority voted ?yes? all of a sudden the goal posts change and it?s ?? should the board have the mandate to move grounds with less than a 60% vote??.

On the Tesco issue, Terry Leahy is a diehard Evertonian born and bred in Liverpool. Obviously he has a duty to the shareholders of Tesco but he also has Everton?s best interests at heart, I know his brother and he is the most passionate Evertonian I?ve ever met. Terry is using his position of power to help Everton build a new stadium in times of financial hardship, yet many choose to criticise and abuse him ? why?

Nothing will ever be good enough for some people and if you decide not to go to the new stadium then obviously your allegiance to Everton Football Club isn?t as strong as many ardent followers who couldn?t care less about a few miles!!
COYB

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