Moyes's 'hit list' means he's staying

He was always going to sign a new improved contract.

"I will wait to see where we finish........how much budget I will have." — Complete bollocks.

"How much? Pass me the pen, Mr Luvvy Duvvy Chairman!"

But they also mention this non existent buy out clause that Felli has, utter rubbish! You would have to presume it would be league placing, ie CL qualification that would persuade him to sign, otherwise nothing as changed financially. The board would have given him what funds he had for every scenario, hence the delay. We are not getting in the CL therefore he is going.

Moyes has a 'hit list' every summer but, like me, he never sees the money. I'm sure Billy Liar will sweet talk him into signing a new, improved contract and will give him £5m to spend on 'strengthening' the squad.

I think this coming season Moyes feels he should have more backing from the board, firstly we are only 4 pts off 3rd with 4 games left (I know others have games in hand), and may have been higher if backed in January, and secondly, there is a massive increase in TV money this year. Over £20m just from Sky, more from overseas rights and I think BT have paid for a package as well and Moyes rightly wants some if not all of this to go towards the squad rather than 'other operating costs.'

I think Moyes could well walk this time. The man has again worked wonders & I truly believe, if he had been properly backed by the Board in January, that we would have qualified for the CL.

I think however that it depends on what jobs are available. I don't think Moyes is interested in rebuilding another struggling or mid-table contender & instead would be looking to prove himself at a club with a big budget & existing great players.

They think he is staying because of a hit list that THEY have drawn up. He may well be staying but to say he is because of potential targets some shit rag has made up is stupid.
Newspapers are utter shite.

What's more suprising is the amount of people who think he would walk away. It just shows how many people know very little of his personality.

Grigoris, I think David O'leary "truly believed" that he could qualify for the champions league a few years ago, and his board backed him.

Unfortunately money spent is no guarantee of anything - as Tony Fernandes has found out - and what happened to Leeds is history.

Give me a coach that is prepared to work within the financial constraints of the club any day over someone who would see us go into administration so he can try to compete with richer clubs financially.

I'm not absolving the board of blame for the fact that we are financially weak compared to our peers, but spending more than we earn is not going to do anything other than get us in the shit.

I have a wish list:

Messi
Ronaldo
Tellow
Alvie's
Walcott

If Kenshite doesn't bring three of my five I am not renewing my ST.

Everyone knows we need new blood and this may mean also Moyes and Round going. Moyes has had some money before and made some astute buys but more than enough bad buys and so, even if some more money is available, there is no guarantee the team will get any better, simply because I believe Moyes doesn't have good judgement regarding team selection or tactics.

With the RS game coming up, Everton are in real danger of finishing below them and that would be a total embarrassment given how poor the RS are. Only Ratboy has kept them going along with a few freak blowout wins that boosted their goal difference. A derby win might make this disappointing season more palatable.

When Moyes wakes up and realises he's not going to get one of the top jobs, he will sign a new contract and come out and say he was always going to.

Richard Reeves, the naivety some people show amazes me.

Brian Waring, accompanied by "I have unfinished business here"....."I am working with a great chairman, he gives me what he can" etc etc.

Richard (#396),

I think you might be misreading the Man of Honour Moyes vibe here.

I don't think he would leave Everton if he was under contract... and that is the whole point. He did not renew his contract because his personality would not allow him to then renege on that contract by walking away from it. But clearly he has had thoughts in that direction, increasingly so this season. If not, then of course he would have signed.

Whether he will or not, we still don't know. I think personally that's a shameful level of uncertainty to impose on the club (but that exact same personality trait enables people of principle, like Moyes, do this kind of thing with impugnity). However, if you are hoping or believing this otherwise admirable personality trait means he will never "walk away" from Everton... well, I think you might be naive too.

Brian - I think Moyes knows he won't get a job with any of the teams above us BUT I think there are more appealing challenges for him. We have had an outstanding season - out football has been the best I can remember for a very very long time. I am frustrated that we could be in a better position with stupid points we have dropped but all the teams above us can say the same.

I want Moyes to stay but I could see him going to Schalke with financial backing and seeing what he can do. I could also see him going to La Liga.

The guy (in my opinion) gets the max out of every player. I know there are many Neville haters here but seeing him on MotD you can hear the admiration he has for Moyes and for a player that was under Sir Alex and to hear his pride at playing for Everton and Moyes says lots to me.

Mr Moyes please stay and to the Everton board - give him some funds to build on the excellent team he has built.

I couldn't agree with you less, Phil. Watching PN on MOTD made me cringe. Of course he speaks well of DM - he would, wouldn't he? They're peas in a pod. Two grimly unentertaining peas in a dismally dull pod.

Also, I'm afraid you can't make words what you want them to mean: we have simply NOT had an "outstanding season". We haven't. I thought that Moyes fans were of the opinion that we should keep him because we are doing as well (if not better) than can be expected given our financial situtation. I thought it was a case of toning down our expectations and being satisfied with the odd cup quarter final and finishing 7th or 8th every season. I hadn't realised that we were secretly doing rather brilliantly! Outstanding, my arse.

Richard Reeves (396)

"It just shows how many people know very little of his personality." — This is news to me, mate, I thought he didn't have a personality or any charisma whatsoever.

I knew the git would do this, it wouldn't surprise me if he says in June "It was always my intention to stay... we have to rebuild an ageing squad... the fans are the only ones that can kick me out, blah blah yada yada."

He was basically selling himself to potential employers, but he's realised that a tactically inept, cautious, KITAP1, bottling, no personality whatsoever idiot is not on anyone's radar.

He wants to overhaul an ageing squad, so he has 30 year old Lescott on his list. Ridiculous.

Evertonians make me laugh, ya know. Moyes has you all jumping through hoops licking his backside. If David Moyes had anything about him, he would be gone at the end of the season. Any manager with an ounce of integrity, ambition, or a bone he could call a spine would've told Kenwright to fuck off by now — especially after the Leeroy Fer bollocks in January and the Vardis Offoe bullshit in August. What kind of Twat would put up with that nonesense if they were not apart of the subterfuge themselves?

Moyes is a Yesman and is >making a mockery of the fans. The sooner he goes, the better. I know, if he stays, the footy — regardless of players — will be the same as last season... this season... five years ago... ten years ago... etc etc etc.

Billy Bullshit needs Moyes and likewise Moyes needs BK so as to continue with this pathetic double act that fools so many gullible suckers. Please go, Davey, I beg you.

Phil#413 I think some people on this sight are so blinded by Moyes so called "heroics" that they can't understand the fact that Moyes will never get near a top job at home or abroad because he's not rated good enough by the likes of Utd ,Chelsea etc here at home and as for the Germans and Spanish don't know and/or don't care who he is.

His record against the bigger teams,except for City is appalling . Every time we've got to a semi or a final we choke, most of the football we've played under him has been tortuous to watch and his dictatorial manner and less than media friendly personality don't do him any favours.

People ask why he didn't take the Tottenham job last summer, well hasn't it occurred to them that he wasn't even offered it .

So IMHO that's why he'll re-sign because unless the club is sold he's got a job for life unfortunately .

Get rid of Moyes & Kenwright and watch us fly high.... and then turn up at Goodison and pick up the pieces of the wreckage

Managers currently DEMONSTRABLY better than DM in the PL

Ferguson
Mancini
Wenger
Benitez
AVB.

Bear in mind the money spent per point by DM is considerably less than the others (see Paul Abels proof on TW) it HAS to be a risk to our club if Moyes goes.

This is not to say there's no one out there who could do a better job than DM, but there is more risk attached if he goes than if he stays. Its a risk reward argument, maybe we'll finish 1 place higher (we wont win the league) but maybe we'll tank and be in a relegation battle. This aspect of the argument is always ignored by most who simply piggy back on pathetic 'dour Davey' narrative which infests this site. If you want him to go make a cogent argument to support your case, rather than one based on alliteration otherwise it just looks like an 'anti' agenda.

I am in 2 minds whether he should stay or go, probably more for him to stay, but whether he does could change the fortunes of our club for ever and to polarise the argument around apologists and the anti mobs does our great club a massive disservice.

Martin,

Some people are also "blinded," by entrenched hostility to Moyes that they've never a good word to say about him.

My take on what you wrote:

You cannot say with any certainty whether either the Germans or Spanish "don't know and/or care about him." This is a nonsensical, nebulous gripe.

Nor can you categorically state that anyone at Man.Utd rates him as being "not good enough," when, noticably, Sir Alex has done nothing but speak about his professional respect for him. On several occasions.

As for Chelsea, Abramovich has consistently sought 'glamourous,' Continental types. How the apparently-superior footballing 'know-how,' of some Russian oil-baron convinces you of Moyes's limitations is beyond me.

Our record against the bigger teams is beginning to improve. We took 4 points of both Man.City & Spurs this season, 3 from Man.Utd, 2 from Arsenal.

We never "choked," against Man.Utd in the Semi-Final. We got gubbed in the Final by a far-superior Chelsea team, with a number of our best players missing; far from choking, Moyes sent-on two attacking subs in the second half to hunt for an equaliser.

Distin made an elementary mistake against L'Pool, and we conceded a set-piece winner.

Regarding his "less than friendly personality." To me - that's a myth. Catterick was deeply suspicious about the capricious nature of the press covering football; he was both prescient & right. Moyes's understandable ambivalence towards generic, predictable and eminently-cliched questions marks him UP in my book.

Finally, could you substantiate a precise example of his "dictatorial manner," and preferably one that doesn't involve some generalised ale house waffle..?

Andy W, I agree. Moyes apparent inability to find a good plan B is my main concern, but I'm equally prepared to accept that this may be due to our limited resources.

More importantly if we accept as was recently shown that our man has a better points per pound ratio than any manager then if he is replaced it's likely that we'll drop down the table No one gets closer to placing a modestly funded club within the top ranks, so it follows that getting rid of Moyes may be a risk. I've obviously no proof of that but the evidence from other clubs and managers suggests it could create a problem.

I get fed up with the predictability of football. The part of me that wants change isn't really a reflection on Moyes, it's just that it's all too samey. Money has taken much of the competition out of the game.

John I agree. I guess my thinking is that if we attracted a manager with a great track record, I would probably say get rid of DM. But how likely is that bearing I mind our v limited resources? To simply get rid of DM with no obviously better manager to replace him is a risk I do not want the club to take.

So who are the better managers out there, the only ones I can think of would never join our club as we haven't got the cash to splash. Any one else is a roll of the dice......

As an analogy, investment research shows that people with little money take much greater risks with it than wealthy people. Why? Cos they want to speculate in the hope they 'win' and change their lives forever, but 99% of the time they fail. Reminds me of the blues situation, which way should the board jump?

Phil Hoyle

"I could see him going to Schalke with financial backing and seeing what he can do. I could also see him going to La Liga."

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Moyes in La Liga!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please could you send me what you are having Phil as it must be amazing stuff mate!

KITAP1 in Spain?

You have just made my day Phil. This must be the funniest post I have ever seen on this site!

I am sure that David Moyes would be the first to say that no one person is bigger than our beloved club... and yet it is he who is holding the club to ransom.

For me, on a personal level, I do not think we will get any better. I am a big Moyes supporter. We have to accept the level of investment will not increase, we will not be taken over and we will have to live within our means for the significant foreseeable. This will mean selling our most sellable assets (players) and reinvesting – which has been done to good success over the years.

We are never going to be able to assemble a squad on our level of net investment to regularly challenge Champions League; when we do happen to qualify, look what happens to our season (this is not DM’s fault but the realities of the constraints of having a small squad).

I am not sure what manager (who would want to come to Everton) would do a better job (please feel free to suggest). We are also playing decent football. However, he has every right to seek pastures new. And I would wish him well. Love him or Loath him – we are undoubtedly in a MUCH better position from when he started.

BUT – even though I accept the above – I would also expect the club to put the club's interests first. In any business, I am sure they would issue David Moyes with an ultimatum: sign or be sacked. This should have happened a couple of weeks ago.

This may seem harsh BUT – given that it would take a miracle for us to finish in the Europa or above – it will give the next manager the necessary time to prepare for pre-season HIS way and not up some mountain in Austria (no offence to any Austrians – I hear the views are very nice).

If a quick appointment had of been made… you never know what effect it would have had on the games remaining… everyone fighting for their futures? However, whilst the level of investment will not go up in the short term, it is still my belief that David Moyes is the safest pair of hands for us.

Absolutely Martin. Spuds didn't want him because he was too defensive.

Wayne, but you miss the point: we could afford it off the back of mega bucks deals, and benefactors on board could've easily lent money.

Can't see DM going to La Liga. It's in a right mess now, only 3 competitive teams and 1 still running away with it, just like in Scotland. There's no way Moyes would want to go to an inferior league IMO. He has stated in the past he fancies Germany and I can see him going there, but NOT La Liga as its not a good enough league.

Simon
Bit contradictory there. You are a big Moyes supporter but think he is holding us to ransom?
That's a well used MOB cliche you know.

He won't get cash in la liga, Malaga got £14m for finishing fourth last year, compared to a relegated Wolves who got something like £47m.
Talk sport had a leading pundit from Spain on last week claiming that League outside of the top two is heading like Scotland and for financial meltdown too, so Mr Moyes would not get anywhere near his pay packet he gets now and similarly in Germany, aside from Bayern, Moyes earns more than twice the wage of the rest of the managers in that league too.

Ross Edwards, you seem to like this sort of game, so why not play my version of it.

List all the Premiership coaches and their achievements with their plus points and negatives.

Then rub out their names and from this list pick out a coach that Everton could afford (in transfers in) and we would expect to take us forwards.

The Paul Daniels in me says that the name that would come out of Felix's bag of tricks in the one and only David Moyes

@Kev416 - so tell me how you would rate this season? I think we have played some great football. Our first 14 is a match for anyone but like any team that wins the title they have 2 potential teams. If you look at Man U and City they have huge squads and it's no surprise they have finished 1 and 2!

@Martin423 - yes our long term record not only Moyes is crap against the bigger teams but this year:

- Man U = 3 pts
- Man C = 4 pts
- Ars = 2 pts (undefeated)
- Chelsea = 0 points (although we dominated them for the first 25 mins at Goodison)
- Spurs = 4 pts

We have done pretty well - our problem this year is dropping points against lower positioned sides or dominating sides (like Chelsea in the first 25 mins) and not making them pay.

@Ross459 - glad I have provided some amusement,

I would love to hear from the Moyes haters who would be a credible replacement?

Whoever comes in will need to work with the same resources and have the same financial restraints.

Kevin when did we last win away at Chelsea ,Liverpool,Manchester Utd or Arsenal ? Not under Moyes that's for sure,also I'm not a big fan of Moyes but as for hatred and blinded by it far from credit where it's due he's steadied the ship that's for sure,but this he gives youth a chance myth and he just needs to be given the chance at a big club fine,but again I ask why hasn't he ? As for Ferguson talking him up that may be true but ol red nose has also bigged up Mourinho and if I were the board at Man U I know which one I'd have.

As for it being nonsense about no one knowing Moyes on the continent ,next time you go on holiday or travel further than Wales ,tell Johnny Foreigner you support Everton and say David Moyes name and see how many times people say "who?" We're not that well known abroad thanks to Sky,I should no I've just retired from the forces so I've travelled a bit and experienced that puzzled look on people's faces when mentioning my beloved Everton.

As for an example of his dictatorial ways have I a personal example no but I'm sure if you ever spoke to Joleon Lescott ,Wayne Rooney and one or two other ex blues I'm sure you'll find them less than positive about him.

As for give him the money ,well lets see IMHO he seems to operate better on a shoestring how you ask? Well for every Cahill (2.5 mill) there's a Kroldrul (6 mill) for every Arteta,there's a Bilyedinov notice the pattern.

As far as I'm concerned if he stays,he stays and if he goes,he goes but I'll still be an evertonian but unlike you unless I've got you wrong ,I don't look at Moyes and think he's gods gift,a decent manager yes but a messiah no!

Martin 474
"As for give him the money ,well lets see IMHO he seems to operate better on a shoestring how you ask? Well for every Cahill (2.5 mill) there's a Kroldrul (6 mill) for every Arteta,there's a Bilyedinov notice the pattern."

No. Please elaborate for me. I cannot think of too many failures that Moyes has bought, but the gems are far more frequent

I know that many will split hairs, but I was at Stamford Bridge when we won, albeit on penalties, but we won none the less.

Martin, Chelsea have lost at home to Man C, QPR and Newcastle. Man U to City and Spurs, Man C to Man U, Arsenal to Man C, Chelsea, Swansea. What the feck does that prove? A total red herring of an argument. Oh no sorry it means QPR, Swansea and Newcastle are better than Everton I presume.

Just thinking more about the Martin, What we need is some sort of system that can compare the abilities of a team relative to its peers over a long length of time. Then we could establish which was the best team and how all the others were ranked. Some sort of table maybe......?
Then depending on where a team finished in the table would give an accurate reflection of how good they were, rather than just assuming for example, that QPR are better than Chelsea cos they beat them at Stamford Bridge.

Three words that when put togther, have no place in a sentence which contains the word “truth
"The Sunday People"
Same goes for every tabloid. 99.9% bullshit. The remaining 0.01 is right by coincidence.

I personally believe Moyes is trying to do the club a big favour by using his personal leverage to squeeze the board. Obviously for him to do that, the threat of leaving must be perceived as being credible. In which case, leaked stories about who he is after are probably complete bullshit. Traditionally his is pretty cagey about disclosing transfer dealing before time.
The cost to him personally is that some myopic evertonians start saying shit like he has a piss poor attitude to the club.

Steven - well said!!!

Steven:

I think you're right about DM pressurising the Board, but I think they're such hard-faced twats that they'll let him leave before discharging their responsibilities to the fans. Mr Kenwright will be fully aware that there are plenty of fans who hate Moyes and will slant his PR accordingly.

Andy I think there is a little more to the argument than plain position in the league, there is also the aesthetic measurement, which of course is subjective. Some people believe that it is the result that is all important, some the way in which those points are won.

Those that think there should be a more expansive method of playing, whilst it won't necessarily mean winning more games, it may indeed lead to a few more losses, but in general the better a team plays the game the better the results and the more the supporters will believe they have a team which is making progress.

Many would argue even though we have a more talented set of players, we don't seem able to break from the shackles of the template as lain down by the manager. Now if we accept that Everton's position should be the 7th best team in the division, then we are under DM achieving just that and we have achieved that level for most of his tenure. But the way we achieve that position has not altered significantly, we are able to beat the top teams with regularity but we are also prone to silly defeats against the lower lights.

I wold think that a tally of a point a game off each of the top 6 teams and 2 points a game off the rest of the division is not over achieving but it would give us a tally of 60 points from the 38 games. Anything less than 60 is failing and over 60 is success. Seeing that we have taken 13 points already from the top 6 clubs with 2 more of them to play it is obvious that our failure against the others is our stumbling block. So this season will be a success given we should get at least a single point from the remaining fixtures and hey presto 60 points is achieved.

So those that argue that it is foolish to believe that CL is achievable are in all probability, correct but those that see DM as some kind of magician extracting more than he should from the squad are in my humble opinion plain wrong.

Andy Walker 484......That'd be.....The Premier League Table??? Just a guess like.

The speculation is annoying, but not long now and the debating on Moyes' current contract wrangle can end! One way or another I'll be pleased, coz it's doing my noggin in

Carl
Kenwright doesn't care abput what we think mate. I'm sure he thinks no one hates his lover and that everything is all hunky-dory in his fantasy land.

Cheers, Martin, thanks for pointing-out that Mourinho's a better manager than Moyes.

Regarding the puzzled look on foreign faces when you mention Everton to them - who cares? Without Googling, can YOU honestly name the Gaffers at these clubs currently sat in sixth place in their respective leagues: Malaga, Freiburg, Udinese or Nice..?

You refer to him as a dictator, yet when pressed, you are utterly unable to substantiate it. Instead, you vaguely hypothesise about Rooney & Lescott, so let's explore your case for the defence..

Rooney personally rang Moyes to apologise to him over the book - and pointedly shook his hand after the game.

Lescott had his head turned by a combination of petro-dollars & Mark Hughes so much, that he actually asked not to be picked for the opening game of the season. When he was selected, his proceeded to put-in the most half-assed 'performance,' of his career - and we got twatted 1-6.

Regarding Moyes's transfer acumen, I absolutely concede Kroldrup & Bily; but I raise you Martyn, Arteta, Jagielka, Distin, Howard, Gibson, Mirallas, Fellaini, Cahill, Baines, etc....

Nice one, Kevin, and you can add Lescott, Rodwell and, yes, Neville to your list.

I can't remember, but did he sign Carsley too? or was he here already?

I can Kevin
Malaga: Manuel Pellegrini
Freiburg:Christian Streich
Udinese: Francesco Guidolin
Nice: Claude Puel
Didn't Google them, I know this from watching the European leagues on ESPN.

In the Telegraph: "United could again turn their attentions to Everton’s Leighton Baines who has had an outstanding campaign and appears to be keen to finally leave Goodison Park."

That ought to put the shits up the Board. But it won't.

Gold star, Ross...

But don't you think an equivalently-smart foreigner would also know who David Moyes, and Everton are...?

Well, since we have a few of us who know what jobs Moyes has or hasn't been offered . . . . . .

I'll guess (not know, guess) that he wants all the money from the Fella and Baines (Jags?) sells. Since our do-nothing owners are about to be wonderfully rewarded by the guaranteed TV cash windfall for doing exactly nothing (no guess-work there), Moyes wants the sale money to re-invest.

With that, since every club in the Prem is about to share in the largesse, shouldn't we re-adjust our estimates on what Fella and Baines will go for? We're still throwing around pre-latest TV contracts estimates on what we can get in for them.

Most estimates were around, what, 35-40 mil in for the 2 of them? With all the silly-money suddenly come available, shouldn't we bump the numbers up to 60-80 mil. 60 as a low-end figure.

It's deffo a cult thing this Moyes business the fear is palpable.

I don't know what's happened to Evertonians courage the pro Moyes case is based entirely on fear and negativity I've yet to hear anyone say keep him to win things.

You must all sleep with the light on.

Barry

I think you are right! My fear is if he goes we will drop like a pair of concrete shoes!!!

I really want to re-live the title winning days of the 80's but unless we get huge investment seasons like this are the best we can hope for! Negative but true.

Barry:

I continue to believe that Moyes will bring us success if he is backed properly on the financial side. We have used the league's lowest number of players this season; with a couple of additions in January I think that we could have had a right good go at the top four. As it is...

We are continually being enjoined to "be careful what we wish for" at Board level, yet if we apply the same logic to the team management we are accused of peddling "fear and negativity".

James Flynn @ 502

James, it would be interesting to know what valuation the club would put on Fellaini. He has, after all, scored as many goals as the £38m Aguero, £12m Walcott, a fee that was agreed when he was a raw 17 year old, £47m Tevez, and one less than Rooney. And all from mid field. Taking that as a benchmark it would be easy to argue that a £23m buy out clause would be under-valuing him. However, everybody knows we haven't got a pot to piss in and that Boys Pen Billy would sell his Grannie to Rooney for a quick shag for a 12 pieces of silver.
Or however many of your English pounds you can spare guv.

Phil and Carl (and others) you're wishing your life away thinking the present regime is gonna change any time soon.

It's like basing hopes and aspirations on the likelihood of winning the lottery an absolute fools paradise.

As a club we need to man up say "thanks Dave we're going a different way" - fresh ideas might make all the difference at the old sky4 places and the shameful cup record.

Some of you guys seem to miss the point when I talk about Moyes' atrocious record against the top clubs,if we have any pretence of making the top four in future taking the odd point away from home and the odd win at home just won't cut it . Also when we go to places like Chelsea , Man Utd and especially Anfield we play with a fear factor and that comes from the manager and coaches,there's too much negativity in our play at these grounds and there shouldn't be not with the players we have available . People like Baines ,Pienaar ,Mirallas ,Fellaini and yes even Jelavic . We are more than capable of beating these teams but the belief just seems to drain away against these teams ,again that starts with the manager.

But you know what guys I hope Moyes can prove me wrong starting Sunday against that lot. Go on Davey lad grow a set ,look Mirallas and Fellaini in the eye and instead of worrying about their defensive duties tell them "you're better than them ,take it to them and tear them apart in front of their adoring kop" . Then I'll be the first to admit I got him wrong.

Breaking news... Baines has been voted into the PFA Premier League Team of the Year. Naismith is on the subs bench.

See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22331030

Barry - please tell me the new direction!!! You are so vague.......what does your new Everton look like?

Barry

In our current financial predicament there is nobody better than DM, you are a complete fool to think someone else will get us into the top 4 on the budget he has. Yes maybe another manager might bring more flair and attacking styles but we would not finish any higher than 5th or 6th !

DM is not the problem, currently we are lucky to have him, it's 24/7 Widow Twanky, sour faced Woods and chocolate fire guard Elstone who are holding our great club back ...... By need to do one

Yes if we had the riches of City etc then I would for sure pat Davey on the back thank him for the last 10 years and send him on his way ...... But we don't have their finances so currently we have no other option

I love this we never win at the Sky 4 - guess what? Before Moyes took over we won 6 times at Anfield since World War 2. (Twice in 17 attempts immediately preceding Moyes). 4 out of 42 at Old Trafford before Moyes took over (winning there once in the previous 13 years before he took over) and 5 out of the previous 45 at Arsenal (and that included 1 win out of the previous 15 seasons prior to Moyes). And 1 win in the 14 years at Stamford Bridge before Moyes started.

James #502 - That's a very good point. If the additional TV cash allowed the club the chance to hang on to existing players for another season then we may see much greater returns on any necessary sales the following summer.

Barry. Your right. Fear is definitely blocking my thinking on the managerial issue. Many fans want Moyes out but fail to agree on a viable replacement. He keeps us nice and steady on a very limited budget and finding someone with the ability to raise the bar will not be easy.

Personally, I would like a big clear-out, starting with Jelavic, Naismith, Vellios, Duffy, Anichebe and Gibson but it's not going to happen. Something tells me we will repeat these posts around the same time next year.

Chris Leyland #520 - I don't think the number of wins at those grounds is particularly significant. Historically, as you point out, one wouldn't expect very many triumphs on those trips. However, I think that this particular statistic is really brought out as an example of a situation where perhaps the attitude & mental approach of the manager, coaching staff & players may be open to question. Nonetheless, as you have chosen to go down the stats route, it might be worth checking our record of success in the 11 & a bit years prior to Moyes rescuing us from the gloom of the previous decade or so :-

Mon Sep 27 1999 Prem A Liverpool W 1 - 0 ;
Sat Jan 20 1996 Prem A Arsenal W 2 - 1 ;
Sat Nov 18 1995 Prem A Liverpool W 2 - 1 ;
Sat Nov 26 1994 Prem A Chelsea W 1 - 0 ;
Wed Aug 19 1992 Prem A Man Utd W 3 - 0 ;
Sat Mar 2 1991 Div 1 A Man Utd W 2 - 0 .

In fact we could have occupying the 3rd spot this season if it hadn't been for we were cheated for as I see it 10 points by some of the referee trios early in the season....so that means Moyes can bring us top four with the squad we have, but I went tired of watching those games we lost 2 points because of bad tactics from the manager......so all in all those 14 draws we have till now could have been more like 6 or 7.....but again....if's and but's....
Hopefully we can manage to cling on to the 6th spot ahead of shits.
But I would like to see a new man in the office and my favorite man for the job is still Bilic....it's always something special with a manager who have played for the club.

@Dennis (532)

"I think that this particular statistic is really brought out as an example of a situation where perhaps the attitude & mental approach of the manager, coaching staff & players may be open to question."

I think actually that particular statistic is used to do nothing more than back up an opinion someone already has. If they already don't like Moyes, then it's "proof". If they do like Moyes, then it's not.

All the "evidence" that people cite is picked and interpreted in a way which supports their existing mindset. It's just the way people (like, everyone), works; we seek an intellectual justification after having a gut feeling.

#402 Wayne Smith

I've never suggested we should do a Leeds! This is a very different situation.

Moyes has consistently each year got this team punching above it's weight & could have gone even further with a bit more investment. That's not even close to a "let's buy success" Leeds mentality.

Despite what the anti-Moyes brigade may say, the table doesn't lie! And what I am saying is that with just a couple of signings in January I think we definitely would have made the CL! Certainly we needed an additional striker due to Jelavic's poor form and another midfielder. As we are all aware, this wasn't the first time the board failed to produce extra funds when we have been on the brink of breaking through & this is why I think, if the right jobs are available, he may well walk.

John Atkins, I never mentioned getting 4th your cultish thinking is blinding you as well as making you spout drivel.

Sort yourself out.

I love how those who support Moyes: (Nb:The majority) are considered to be "a cult," in the mind of Barry Rathbone.

(Pictures the IMWT Brigade entering sinister-looking chapel at the stroke of midnight wearing matching t-shirts. Everyone bald, whispering passwords & giving each other a 'funny,' handshake underneath a Stalinist-style, 20-foot obelisk depicting Moyes's beatific visage...then burning an effigy of Mike Walker).

"All Hail!"

Robin Cannon #557 - Clearly any meaning is derived from the interpretation, if any, one makes of the statistics - but the statistics are still there nonetheless. I'm not too sure how much anybody can like or dislike somebody they most likely only have a fairly superficial knowledge of & may well have never met, or if so probably only briefly. Most supporters don't get to know their club manager particularly well, largely gaining an appreciation through various media. I have my own perception of Moyes, but I don't know whether in reality I'd find him to be a great bloke or a complete arsehole & chances are I'll never find out. My only interest in him is how well he does for Everton. I do agree much of what passes for debate on here is based on our individual 'gut feeling' & very little 'intellectual justification' either way really holds much sway. We know what we feel & all the rational debate won't change how we feel - but then football is rarely much about rationality, imo.

All this is Moyes being a defensive manager is all a load of bollocks.

You really think if he moved to Utd, he would get them playing hoofball, going for 1-0 wins? No!! Because the players are all too good, it's all about the money and the players! All the people who think managers have that much influence should stop taking the smelly stuff.

Moyes has done an amazing job, and it's very, very unlikely someone could do AS WELL let alone better than him.

And how do you know Moyes is not good enough? What chance has he had? If he spent 2 seasons at Utd, and they didn't win the title, I could understand, but he hasn't given a chance, so that could still go either way.

Just watch when Moyes leaves, then we start finishing mid table, watch how the increasingly desperate justifications for him leaving come up then.

And everyone saw the goal we scored on Saturday, great team goal, yet all 'dour Davey' plays is long ball, hoof ball all the time.

We have played it in the past, it's frustrating, but it's even more frustrating how some people pick and choose arguments to bash Moyes constantly. Deserves it some of the time, but not always!

Ben - you say that Man Utd's are "all too good" to grind out a 1-0 and play hoofball. Do tell me: given their superior finances, which of their players are better than ours?

While you're having a think, here's my answer: Rooney and Van Persie. Er, that's it.

Carrick's been very good this season, but he's been inconsistent over the last few years. Better than Fellaini? I wouldn't say so. De Gea is a great shot stopper but his decision making (especially when it comes to crosses) is dodgy - reminds me of Howard in that respect, and I'd have them on a par. Ferdinand v Distin/Heitinga? The Utd man just edges it on current form, admittedly, but he's been off form or injured quite a lot in the last few seasons.

Baines is better than Evra. Mirallas is probably better than Nani/Young/ Valencia - or maybe I'm biased and he's only on a par with them. Gibson v Cleverley? Hard to say, as they're different types of players. Pienaar v Kagawa/Anderson/Old Giggs? Close one, but I think I'd go for Peanuts. That leaves Wellbeck against Jelavic: the former is an all round player but, on form, the latter is a better goal-getter.

Summary: they have Rooney and Van Persie, we have Baines. There isn't much to choose between the rest of the players. In conclusion: Man Utd do NOT have much better players than us. They do have a better manager, though.

Yeah,
Lucky bastards are 26 points clear of us in the league :-)

Kev Johnson
You say that Everton's players are as good as Man Us (more or less). If that were true then given the shoestring transfer budget presumably you must rate Moyes as the greatest manager in the history of football in picking and retaining talent at a fraction of the budget that Mr Ferguson has at his disposal.

How lucky we are then??

However its not true is it? Not even a little bit. Not only is their first team better where the difference really shows up is their strength in depth. Brilliant though Moyes is at buying talent on a limited budget (and there I do agree with you) its not enough to bring a level playing field. The gap is too wide. Man Utd's income is more than ours and Liverpool's combined. Their operating profit is bigger than our turnover. We cannot compete with them and the fact that we come close to doing is a miracle.

Kev, even though I do kinda disagree with your summary, you have conveniently forgotten to summarise the squad rather than the first 11.

We have Naismith to come on, they have Nani and Young to come on.

We have Jelavic as a second striker, they have Hernandez and Welbeck as third and fourth strikers!!!!

Of course they have better players. What Im saying if Moyes is there, he would not dramatically alter the team, I think it's a myth of the amount of influence managers have. It at least takes th a few years to completely change the style if football, which is what Rodgers is trying to do for the shite.

"Rooney & Van Persie. Er, thats it"
Thanks Kev #598...brightened up an otherwise typical "back at work" Monday morning.

Ben - you read my post and replied with "of course they have better players". Hardly a persuasive argument, is it? In fact, it's not an argument at all. It just seems like you can't be bothered to address my player-by-player comparisons and have simply resorted to simply repeating what you said in the first place.

I do agree that they have a slightly bigger and slightly better squad. I say "slightly" because the gap is nowhere near as great as some people (yourself and others) seem to suggest. On our bench we have a Slovakian international keeper, a Dutch defender with many international caps, a Croatian international striker and an extremely promising young midfielder. Also, when fit, a hugely experienced right back. Not too shabby, I reckon. Additionally, I concede, we have the living nightmare that is Naismith.

Where Man Utd clearly have the edge is in attack. I don't think that's a coincidence. SAF prioritises that part of the team, Moyes doesn't.

I've just addressed the argument with an analysis of the squad!!!!

I really cannot be bothered to analyse the whole squad of both teams, but Utd have virtually two good players for every position. Strikers especially, centre backs especially, and the majority are all good international players.

When we are using Naismith and Barkley as our main game changing subs, and they can pick and choose from Anderson, Nani, Young, Giggs, Welbeck and Hernandez, that should be enough to suggest we have a better squad.

As you say, Ben, you "really can't be bothered" looking at the specifics. At least you have admitted it, although - obviously - this means that your argument is specious.

'Carrick's been very good this season, but he's been inconsistent over the last few years. Better than Fellaini?, I don't think so'

Why do some people not rate Carrick, he's first choice in a midfield that more often than not wins the league most years. United's wide men haven't even been that good this year, neither has Rooney, yet Van Persie has still ended up with the golden boot. Who do you think is servicing him? Carrick's transition play is the best in the league, he'll play forward nearly all the time knwoing that even if he misplaces a pass its better than simply dropping it off backwards to one of his centrebacks. That's why when United's forward players get it they get it on the run with time and space. When Van Persie is in the box he usually only has to beat away the attentions of one or two defenders. Contrast this to Everton who have to play amazing football just to even carve out a single oppurtunity in one game. Pienaar and Mirallas barely ever get the ball facing goal, and Jelavic usually shares the box with all of the opposition team and half of our team as well, no wonder he's not slotting them in.

People will continue to underrate Carrick's qualities in favour of bigger faster stronger midfielders who score from distance. England managers will continue to do it and will continue to fail on the international scene. Ferguson will keep picking him as first name on the teamsheet and he'll keep winning the trophies I wonder who's judgement of the players qualities is better? They are different types of players but Fellaini is nowhere near the level that Carrick is. Gibson is probably the closest thing we have to him but he is a poor man's version which is exactly why United sold him to us.People always go on about when Ferguson is going to replace Scholes but he replaced him years ago and made Carrick the cornerstone of his midfield.

Kev the rest of your squad comparison is very one sided. Kagawa would walk into our team and he doesn't even play that much for them. Ferdinand/Vidic as a partnerhsip is infinitely supreme to Jags/Distin. All the 1-0s they get when playing badly are the 1-1s we get. The CBs are the difference. All of their forward options, all four of them are better than any of our strikers (perhaps an inform Jelavic over Welbeck but he's not in form is he). We have two very good wide players who would probably prefer not to be playing wide whereas they have just gone a whole domestic season without any of Valencia, Young or Nani hitting any real form at all. I'd say Baines, Mirallas and maybe Jagielka would get into their squad and perhaps only the first two into their first team although Mirallas lacks the consistency to play regularly for them..

Kev has hit the nail on the head with his comments about Man Utd prioritising the purchase of attacking players over defensive ones ie they intend to score more than the opposition were Moyes sets out to concede less. Two sides of the same coin maybe, but we have seen too many times were Everton fall behind and a defensive minded coach has struggled to change the philosophy apart from throwing somebody on for a mad 5 minute dash as their goal. Whilst Man Utd have fallen behind countless times this season but their attack minded style has allowed them to stick to plan A and turn things around.

I know this is a lot easier to do when you have Rooney, RVP etc. rather than Osman and Anichebe but it would be nicer to have a go. If Moyes is staying and does have a hit list I would love to see Kone and Scott Sinclair on because combined with Mirallas I think they would make us a much stronger counter attacking force with the ability to stretch the opposition and get from end to end quicker and not wait for a lumbering centre forward to hold things up and wait for everybody else to play catch up as we seem to do way to often now.

Andrew Ellams @ 619

"Whilst Man Utd have fallen behind countless times this season but their attack minded style has allowed them to stick to plan A and turn things around." Andrew, Utd have gained 29pts after coming from behind, more than any other team. Everton are second in that table, scoring 22pts from losing positions. Sort of torpedo's your argument, that, doesn't it?

Michael (#411), Moyes may of had thoughts of leaving but thinking and doing are two different things.

I don't know if not signing a contract is a way to put pressure on the Board for a decent transfer budget or if it is designed to attract interest from other clubs but the point is that, when it comes down to those final few minutes when Kenwright's got the contract in front of Moyes, he will sign it.

For there to be any chance of Moyes leaving, a bigger club than Everton would have to be interested or at least a club with money to spend but that would come with pressure – something Moyes doesn't do well – and, let's face it, any club who want to be going places won't want Moyes with his brand of football as has been proven over the last 11 years with the lack of interest in his services.

But here's my point about people not understanding Moyes's personality and I'll keep it short: basically Moyes has not got the self-belief and bottle to take on another job with expectations because he knows his own ability, irrespective of what the media say. He's not stupid and knows he's lucky to be in the job he has already.

I'm sure Moyes has had enough of the lack of funds and who knows, maybe many a false promise, but with all that comes stability for himself, no pressure from anyone, a massive wage, and adulation from the media in the most highly exposed league in the world. Go figure.

Chris (#520) the big difference Chris, Moyes has had 11yrs of not winning at any of the so called top 4.

Who are the "top four" anyway? If it's Man Utd, Man City, Arsenal and Chelsea then we should note that we have beaten City many times over the years (shouldn't include their time spent in the lower leagues, of course).

If it includes Spurs, well, we've turned them over a few times at their place.

There is a danger, here, of falling into an attitude of "my statistics are facts, but your facts are just statistics". It's all opinions.

I think the reason Moyes is so polarizing is because his flaws (to detractors like me) are so easily correctable and yet he never changes or learns from mistakes. It's simple man management and rotation. We use less players than anyone else in the prem regardless of money. With limited resources, the same old 'play my first eleven until one gets injured' won't work. To improve our standing, he has to start playing young talent more regularly to build confidence, develop them, and rest our best 11. Before Hibbert got hurt, I was big on playing Seamus Coleman instead because he was quite honestly more talented. But most poo pooed the notion because of the usual 'he can't defend' and 'if he was good Moyes would have started him' nonsense. Then the calf injury happened, Coleman got his chance and it turns out he is one of our best players, particularly in recent matches. Osman started EVERY game all season until a minor injury allowed Ross Barkley to finally showcase his talents, which I believe greatly outnumber Osman's. Yet, he won't be given a chance because of how much service to the club Osman has given. With all the crap play of Jelavic up front this season, Vellios is a forgotten man. No idea how Neville even made the team sheet this season given how he played. Steven Naismith, a support striker, spent the better part of 2 months playing out wide in place of Mirallas, when Bryan Oviedo, an actual winger/left back with Champions League experience continues to rot on the bench. There was that stretch when Heitinga was directly responsible for 8 goals conceded in a month and yet Shane Duffy continued to sit. I can't imagine under 19 and 21 internationals represent their respective countries because they are crap. We have quite a few that could easily help us get those few extra points that have remained elusive in our quest for a champions league place. I've never proposed that we should pull a Villa and recklessly play youngsters, but I think we have more than enough talent and under utilized gems on our bench to earn a champions league spot. I felt that way a the beginning of the season. I still do. I think we blew it. I think Moyes blew it. 15 draws? C'mon man. For all the points we've saved coming from behind, we've given away just as many with the lead against crap teams like Wigan, Reading, Norwich..... Do you know why that is? Because Moyes runs the same 11 ragged and their form eventually dips. It happens to every team. Other teams' managers rotate the squad more often to try and prevent this. People thinking we'll sink without Moyes are underestimating the talent on our bench just as much as he does. Oviedo, Barkley, Vellios and Duffy have all had very good moments in their brief time on the pitch for Everton. Coleman has been spectacular after Moyes had no chance but to put him in. I think the most frustrating thing about Moyes is that he can spot or acquire the talent but he doesn't have the believe in them to blood them in. All it would take is the odd start or 30 minutes every 5 games for most of these guys (with the exception of Barkley who should just start most games instead of Osman) to stay fresh and qualify for CL. I can't be the only one that sees this.

Peter Jones (#752) You're not,...... .nail on head.

Fact: There is not a manager out there that would struggle to have EFC make the top 4.

"Oh errrr, well errr, why not just try some new guy(s), just in case?"

That’s what the anti-Moyes argument ultimately amounts to, and it has reached the stage where it is (should be) pretty embarrassing to those who make it.

If a guy walks up to a roulette wheel and refuses the suggestion of placing all his money on green, would you accuse him of "a lack of ambition"? Evidently, there are some on this forum who would.

Obviously, I meant "not a manager out there that would "not" struggle"

Steven I'm a supporter that wants Moyes out and gave plenty of logical reasons for it based on the events of the season and seasons past since he makes the same errors over and over again. You're just saying that no one could achieve top 4 with Everton as if we've had other people take a crack at it the last 11 years, which is equally as silly the anti-Moyes argument you're mocking. That is an opinion. It is not fact. Nobody knows because no one has been given the opportunity.

......... and who do you want to try Peter, you have somebody in mind? or just looking to call out names at random.
Don’t you think it’s at least prudent to know who you will try, before you throw a man of Moyes proven ability away? Or you just happy to spin the wheel?
You may also care remember the glorious 1990s , years in which the wealth gap was less than it is now.

Steven
Use your time machine and go back to March 14th 2002. BK has just sacked Wally Smith after 4 years of struggle. He could have appointed Gary Megson but listened to what Wally said and went for a man at Division One Preston called David Moyes.
David Who? He was a refreshing change and he is sadly still here 11 years later.
What's to say that BK could drop to the Championship again in the summer and appoint a Zola or a Poyet? New methods, new tactics, a new way of football could be refreshing and could work again like it did with DM.
You say no manager could get top 4 with Everton but no one thought that Moyes would get a 4th spot in 04/05 did they?
Everyone thinks that we cannot survive after Moyes, well we survived after Harry Catterick and Howie Kendall MkI and we will survive after DM.
Moyes has come and will go, but there will always be an Everton, pre Moyes and after Moyes.

Peter 769:

Do you believe that David Moyes has been backed adequately in the transfer market during his time at Everton?

No no no no Steve Telford.

People are saying the woeful records in the cups, at the old sky4 grounds and the derby surrenders are clear areas of consistent weakness. The style of play and the Bermuda triangle strikers vanish into under Moyes needs addressing - it's been 11 fuckin years.

The spurrious claim of you and other desperados saying fans are demanding 4th or better is a lie.

There has been an opportunity this season with only the Mancs playing to any standard and if ever stability and shrewdness was to come to the fore it was this season - but it hasn't quite possibly because stability really means far to comfortable.

Similarly the FA cup, the door was open like never before and the usual happened.

Calls for Moyes to go are based on genuine faults he has had 11 years to rectify and hasn't. It is ludicrous delusion to muse about money because it's not going to change - we sell to buy - get used to it.

Martinez or Poyet.

"Fact: There is not a manager out there that would struggle to have EFC make the top 4."
Steven, this "fact" amounts to the same relevance if I said something like:
"Fact: Everyone in the world likes peanut butter"
This is pure opinion mate, and you mock anti-Moyes posts for being stupid yet this has the same impact.

Ross, do you remember what it was like in the 1990s,
it was the dark ages.

In the absence of a cash, the most we could do find is a guy that does what Moyes has done (is doing)

We have so much to lose, and the tiniest probability of gain.
Of course the club can survive without Moyes, but the question is survive in what state. if we won’t achieve more, the only other 2 possibilities are the same or less - you really want to take the risk?

Have you not enjoyed a having to keep an eye on Arsenal, spurs, Chelsea and Liverpool.
They are company, and we can hold our own with them. For a club of our (financial) punch, that is monumental.

If Moyes had been flush with cash, and we were as we are, I could understand entertaining the suggestion of trying something new. But he has not been, and never will the next guy be.

Barry:

Please justify your preference for Martinez. Really, I'd love to read it. In the meantime, calling fellow Evertonians liars is poor, even by your standards.

Steven Telford.

refer to 90s ......check

scaremonger ....check

Money excuse ...check

As I said last night Evertonians courage has vanished, scared of your own shadow.

Barry, you suggest "Martinez"
Well, he manages a team of similar finances to Moyes, and look what he achieves.
Every year, seems to just escape relegation (this season yet TBC……) – but same every year. Of all the candidates, he is the one who has most had a similar setup to Moyes.

Why is he an interesting name to you, because Liverpool were interested?
Martinez, may yet prove to be a good manager, because he has a claim to not having received a chance with money in his pocket. Remind you of anybody?

Sorry, but Next!

Poyet, make a case for him.

Steven
As you seem to rip to shreds anyone who says anything anti-Moyes these days, who do you suggest, as Barry's suggestions of Poyet and Martinez are very good.

So you're afraid of change as you think it's too risky, Steven. That's understandable, many have expressed similar sentiments. However, I don't think Everton will ever win anything whilst Moyes is in charge, so it seems to me the only hope lies in change. It may not work. It'll definitely carry risks, Alternatively we can just carry on as we are, securely making up the numbers & occasionally we might get a brief European trip if we're lucky.

Ross:

Why would Martinez be a good choice?

Barry,
Wanting change for the sake of change............... check
understating the impact of money........................check
Unable to name a convincing replacement........... check.
Forgetting the 1990s……………………………....…check
Failing to rationalise with relevant probabilities……check
Confusing scaremongering with appreciating the gravity of a very important decision…. check

Dennis 798:

That's about the size of it; we all aspire to be the best but until Everton receive significant funding we are doing as well as we can in the league we are in.

Ross #785
Asking me that question boarders on absurd
Who do you think I am suggesting?

Carl if you tell lies you're a liar it's that simple so climb down off that pony.

I saw Martinez rebuild at Swansea when I had business dealings in the area and it was nothing less than mesmeric.

From virtually a heap of rubble he transformed a virtually bankrupt club into champions. Not by the standard Moyes/Alardyce/Mcleish guff of tight at the back long ball hard running free with every box of cornflakes coaching manual. No, he introduced a style of football that every man and his dog said couldn't work - they were Barcelona in white.

The foundations were so strong a dullard like Rogers has become a multi millionaire off the back of them. At Wigan the money tap was turned off on his arrival virtually guaranteeing relegation. Well he's defied the odds found players good enough for Chelsea and is still there swinging away .... oh and he come to our place and twatted us 3 nil in a head to head.

He is intelligent (turned down the RS) keeps winning against the odds and is a genuine man of principle (stayed at wigan - DESPITE GENUINE OFFERS) and would do a Shankly here given the opportunity.

How about that for starters?

Not as absurd as you saying "Fact no manager could get us in the top 4"
Carl
Martinez gets less to spend at Wigan than Moyes does and still keeps them up every year, he has overachieved massively when they should have gone years ago. His critics may say he only turns up for 4 games a year but he has done a damn good job to keep them in the PL for 4 years without spending anything. They also play some good stuff as well and would bring more entertainment to Everton than we have had under DM.
He also is very confident in his team and still says that Wigan will stay up despite looking unlikely, you don't hear DM say anything positive before a match, he thinks we are underdogs for this and that, yet Wigan have smaller attendances and thus less cash than even we do.
If he gets a fair crack like DM has he could do well. But no doubt you Moyesists won't give him a fair chance as you think that Moyes is the be all and end all of this football club.

Steven Telford 790

I notice you don't dispute the Moyes failings and in the absence of an argument mysteriously call it change for changes sake.

Well it's not is it if there's genuine unimpeachable reasoning?

Have a go yourself at saying why we should keep Moyes .... if you dare.

Ross Edwards
If you want proof that another manager wont get us top 4, just look how many clubs with the same budget as Everton have got in the top 4 in the last 11 years. The teams that have finished top 4 in the last 11 years are:

Arsenal
Spurs
Man Utd
Chelsea
Man City
Liverpool
Everton

So, going by your logic, Ross, all the other teams that aren't on that list which have a budget similar to ours or superior, must've all had really dire managers.

OK, Barry, that is a decent argument at least.
I can’t say I feel he is better than Moyes, because of seeing Wigan season in season out, but at least you make a decent argument - to that I tip my hat.

My only pit of replay would be that Martinez, has had a number of years at Wigan – a club not too dissimilar to Everton, and, in league terms, he has achieved much less than what Moyes has.
For me that tips the balance in favour of keeping DM. but as I said, its more convincing an argument that what others make.

On question, if we had been having the same sort of seasons as Wigan have been, would Evertonans have called for the mangers head?
I feel the answer is Yes, understandably

Barry, I have listed on this forum many times the reason why we should keep Moyes.

He punches FAR above his weight
Proven track record of finding great value in the transfer market
Proven ability to have a team of low finance compete with EPL giants
.......... the list goes on, I have many times stated my reasoning.
You can’t accuse me of not doing that.

Martinez can do all of that, Steven, which makes your love-in with Moyes redundant.

Steven Telford 762.
Obviously

Barry:

So Swansea have had two managers since Martinez and yet their present success is due to him. Good logic.

You deplore Moyes's lack of trophies and yet you wish for the appointment of a manager whose only success at this level is to avoid relegation - every year - by the skin of his teeth.

You applaud Martinez's undeniable merit in achieving the above and yet slaughter Moyes despite a long series of top-eight finishes on a negative net spend.

Your posts, by the way, are spattered with attempts at provocation ("if you dare", "climb off that pony", "liars", etc ad nauseam) that do you no credit.

Martinez only stays up by the skin of his teeth because he literally has diddly squat to spend Carl. Moyes would have relegated Wigan years ago. He is a one trick pony, and always will be.

Ross #808
Go to have a look at where Wigan are, where they where last season..... etc
If you call that punching far above weight - my pity to you.

Steven
My point is that Wigan should have been relegated to the Championship years ago, but to RM's credit they are still in the Prem and could still stay up for a 5th season in a row.
If keeping a side that has poor attendances that should be struggling in the Championship up in the PL for 4 successive seasons isn't a massive overachievement, I don't know what is.
Compared to what Martinez has had to cope with, Moyes has had it easy.

Steven and Carl the foundation of your argument of saying Wigan compare to Everton is an avenue my mind won't go down .

The idea Wigan compare with virtually any Prem club is to not know Wigan, they inhabit a rugby league area in the heartland of football between Merseyside and Manchester - without a hope in hell springs to mind.

Martinez real appeal is his work at Swansea and Carl your dismissal of foundations at football clubs is ludicrous if you said Shanks and Busby had no impact on the future dynastys at Liverpool or Manu you'd be carted away.

The Wigan project is fighting an inferno with a garden hose however when they go down (as they surely must) I'll be lumping on them to come straight back better and stronger if Martinez stays.

In summary, for the positives Moyes has brought I want our KNOWN playing faults rectified, the financial constraints will not change and if Moyes is angling for money as the answer he's wasting his time.

After witnessing the impossible at Swansea I believe Martinez could be Wenger Mk1 at a footballing giant like us. Because despite what some Evertonians say - footballing giant this club IS and always will be.

Carl I'm sorry if I offend your sensibilities I'll try and use warm words so you're not upset.

How many managers could have kept THAT Walter Smith Everton squad from relegation as Moyes managed?

Ross Edwards 820
Martinez has achieved no more then Steve Bruce or Paul jewell did before him

Jason Heng, 157 mangers off the top of my head.

I don't think Martinez has ever got more than 43 points or so, has he? Barely avoiding relegation for several seasons in a row.

Why people think he could possibly trump Moyes is baffling to me.

Can anyone name a good signing/sale at wigan during his tenure?

Victor Moses ... now plays for Chelsea, not sure about Nzogbia but he was class under Martinez.

Kone looks good.

The Everton reject (is it Mcman) looks a cracker, sure there's more - beat us 3 nil anyway.

But that's the point the money tap was turned off when he arrived Bruce and Jewell had the money from Whelan.

Carl Sanderson # 792
"Dennis 798:
That's about the size of it; we all aspire to be the best but until Everton receive significant funding we are doing as well as we can in the league we are in. "

I believe we are doing as well as Moyes can, Carl - which is not to sneer at what he's achieved. However, I don't really want Groundhog Season ad infinitum. I'd like to see what another coach can do for us Who knows maybe the next man in can build on the foundations Moyes has laid & actually move the club forward. I doubt we'll find out anytime soon, but it's coming one day. Some may be fearful of the inevitable change in manager, but I'm looking forward to it, whenever it comes.

Steven- I don't have a problem with Martinez, Clarke, or Laudrup as they all rotate players regularly and have to manage on a budget. Say what you want about Wigan, but Martinez found Momo Diame, Arouna Kone, Shaun Maloney and Charles N'Zogbia on a budget the fraction the size of ours. I think it's fair to say that with the new television deal and the current talent of the squad any of these guys could at the very least match our points total this season. Clarke hasn't been doing it as long, but I think he's done admirably with West Brom with the talent they have. He's used a variety of players and formations, which is my main problem with Moyes. As for Laudrup, he'd probably be my favorite of the 3 seeing as he has won something with a nothing club like Swansea. The guy found Michu for 2 million. That's a bargain buy if I've ever seen one. He WON something in 7 months. Moyes has been trying for 11 years with no success. He also is big on rotation and experimenting with his young talent. Looks to be working wonders for them.

Carl- Yes. I totally agree that Bill and the board have screwed us all. No disputing that. However, we must make lemonade. Moyes has taken us as far as he can and been paid handsomely for it. The only way we can improve on what he has built is to play the youth so we can strengthen the squad through the academy or sell them to buy world class talent.

A lot of you lads go on about how Moyes is praised by other manager etc, the funny thing is, so is Martinez.

There has to be some irony in this case for Martinez? Martinez team cannot compete with those managers above him, due to having less finances.

But you want Moyes out as he....cannot compete with the teams above him due to.....having less finances. What kind of mentalism is this?

Barry:

Question for you - if Wigan are relegated will you still want Martinez?

Perhaps we should go for Di Canio - he seems to be flavour of the... oops, Sunderland are 6-1 down at relegation-threatened Aston Villa. Cross him off!

If you don't want a manager who has suffered any heavy defeats, you'll obviously want rid of Moyes, Carl. I think it's just part of the game - happens to everybody sometime(s).

Good job we don't play Villa anytime soon then?

Dennis:

Yes, I was just making a... doesn't matter.

Don't bother next time then, Carl.

Dennis:

Well that told me, didn't it?

Meanwhile, I note that so many people say, "Be careful what you wish for..." when talking about Kenwright. Rarely do I hear the same sentiment applied to Moyes. Indeed, people who do so are accused of "scare-mongering"

How do you account for it?

Barry: “Wigan, they inhabit a rugby league area in the heartland of football.” — So what? That would wash if clubs based their teams on locally produced players. Which by and large, they do not.

Barry: “The Wigan project is fighting an inferno with a garden hose”” — Replace the word Wigan, with Everton, and the sentence still works in respect to having us challenge the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool.

I will admit, I like how you sell Martinez, I’m happy to learn something, but just see a huge irony your relative valuations. It’s like, Moyes already achieves that what you hope Martinez would achieve. And the reason I say that is because I can’t see him anymore likely to break the top 4.

If Myes was to go, I would not be negative about Martinez arriving, but I would still — on balance — prefer to not try a person who will, at most, achieve the same as what we have.

I don't account for it, Carl.

Seems to me that phrase has been utilised quite frequently with regard to suggestions that either should vacate their respective posts. I'd be happy to see Moyes move on, but much happier to see a new Board. Whereas I feel Moyes has probably achieved as much as he's going to at Everton, I'm not at all sure the Board have achieved anything positive at all. No doubt any change will be slow in coming. Perhaps it's time to replace NSNO with SNAFU.

Dennis:

I agree with you regarding the Board. They have been an unalloyed disaster and, but for the fortuitous appointment of Moyes, could have been catastrophic for the Club. But it follows that if they had done their jobs and supplied Moyes with the wherewithal to build a squad with some depth then we could all be arguing about which international-class striker we should buy and, who knows, be lauding Moyes's trophy success.

Your comment about NSNO is quite witty and contains a kernel of truth.

Peter Jones @ 840

Peter, I'll see your Michu and raise you one Jelavic, after all, Jelavic looked sensational in his first season with us. When Michu has been more than a one season wonder we can make a proper judgement on the lad. Laudrup:- "The guy found Michu for 2 million. That's a bargain buy if I've ever seen one." Cahill, Arteta, Pienaar, Coleman, Jagielka, Yobo, Martyn, OK, a couple of these signings cost a bit more than the £2m Michu is thought to have cost, however, they have all proved to be good enough, long term , for the Prem. Add Lescott who turned a handsome profit when he left, and I will need some convincing that Laudrup is better than Moyes in the transfer market.

If that donkey Jelavic had scored just a fraction of the chances he's had this season, there's a reasonable shout that we may have qualified for Champions League. Would we still be harping on about how inept and overcautious Moyes is? I doubt it. How fickle we football supporters are. COYB.

Two things I don't expect to ever see in the same sentence : 'Moyes' & ' trophy success'. But wouldn't I just love to proven wrong!

I see the papers are tipping Wenger to PSG - wonder whether this is why
Davie as kept his powder dry?

Same papers also tipping Jelavic to West Ham - and Kenwright to run the Bolshoi Ballet. That'll keep them on their toes!!

So all of those people comparing Martinez achievements at Wigan to Moyes at Everton and claiming them to be significantly inferior, I guess this means you believe the playing squad to be pretty much equal then.

In relative terms he has achieved plenty at Wigan. The average weekly wage of his squad is 1/17th of what Wayne Rooney earns and he has had to supplement his own transfer budget by scouting good young talent from home and abroad and selling them for impressive profits (Valencia, Moses, Palacios).

What would he bring to Everton? A fresh approach to how the game is played and a desire to build a club up from the bottom, ie bringing through the youth.

I am a huge fan of this guy, not sure he could be our Shankly as somebody mentioned earlier as unfortunately the days of a manager alone creating a dynasty in English football are long gone, but I thouroughly believe he would make Saturday afternoons at Goodison Park and more enjoyable experience than what we have now. Even when we don't win, we will play football

Brin,
it will if he has Barrymore in a tutu in the front line