When we lost so pathetically to Middlesbrough in the Quarter Final of the FA Cup in March 2002, I was devastated with the dismal performance and the disappointment of not going to Wembley.

Despite his signings of old players (remember Gazza and Ginola), I liked Walter Smith , he was a good guy. I was driving to my workplace in Derby when I heard he’d been sacked a few days later and our options were Gary Megson and David Moyes. Being from Blackpool, I knew of Moyes’s management skills at Preston, so I literally prayed we’d get him, we did and Rhino’s goal, the 4-3 at Derby and the spanking at Newcastle followed.

In a way, those first three games categorised his tenure at Everton: for every achievement there was a crushing disappointment. The joy of the Champions League qualification followed by a 7-0 embarrassment at Arsenal. We were turgid, hard to beat but ultimately totally devoid of pleasing on the eye. His total inability to let his older players go, his cowardice when playing the ’big teams’, were Everton, FFS.

There were many times when I wanted him to go: two successive hammerings to Villa and the Baggies spring to mind... but Wembley 14 April 2012 was my nemesis. At half-time, one-nil up, I went down to the Wembley concourse for a pint and saw Blues dancing. I had this horrible sinking feeling that despite the fact that they were there for the taking his half-time team talk would be along the lines of "let’s hang on..." Ultimately, Distin’s pathetic back-pass cost us the game, but it was Moyes’s total inability to press home our advantage that cost is the victory that should have been ours.

Ultimately it was the Wigan FA Cup game that seemed to polarise opinion against him. He was already gone and, despite him finally playing an attacking team and leaving one up front from the opposition’s corner against West Ham in our final home game, I had come to despise the man.

The chants, his introduction after the final whistle "Ladies and Gentlemen... Mr David Moyes!" made my nauseous, he was going to Man Utd long before it was announced (I wanted him to go, but the dishonesty, the running down the road in London and the sheer brown-nosing of the "I can’t go to SAF’s house in jeans" made me want to vomit).

I had the ’pleasure’ of meeting him one week before we beat the Mancs on pens in 2009. I was at a Blackpool game the week before, in the corporate area, and someone pointed him out, he was ten seats away, so I made my way over and introduced myself. I asked him if we could beat the Mancs the following week, told him it would be like a home game How good were our fans that day? He was the most inarticulate, uncomfortable person I’ve ever met: "Well... we’ll see," was his response.

His media interviews made me cringe, I’ve spoken to a member of the Everton physio staff who confirmed that he disliked any form of media interviews and treated the EvertonTV staff like they were total outsiders.

He went to Man Utd, all my non-Evertonian friends told me what a great loss it would be, I argued and had to resort to "You’ll see" a pitiful argument I know.

Then we get a new manager.

We’ve still got no money, but we’ve got a manager who knows how big Everton is. No ’knife to a gunfight’ bollocks. He thinks we can win every game. If we draw or lose, he puts a positive spin on it. He’s trying to get us to keep the ball. Difficult I know with Distin, Howard and Jags at the back, but he’s trying to play the right way.

I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve shouted "Keep the ball" under Moyes, but Roberto has a plan and I like it. We’re moving the ball too slowly but it will come right. He’ll change a few players and get his system working. We keep the ball we don’t lose it’s; not rocket science. We have some tricky games to come and we will find out a lot more about Bobby’s DNA but I like what I see.

He’s positive, the players love him, he attracts good players (Lukaku to Everton under Moyes.... not a cat-in-hell’s chance), he’s respected and tactically he’s astute, witness the way his Wigan side destroyed us last season and the way he out-thought Mancini in the final.

Fear, I think not, he won’t bottle the big games. Win, lose or draw, we’ll give it a go and he’ll still be looking good while doing it!

Thank God for Roberto Martinez. He loves our club and knows that Nothing but the best........

Now can we as Blues get behind him, please.

[I have checked this article for factual errors and can find none, Unlike SAF’s book, if you find 45 errors you cannot have a refund as you have not paid to read my prose.]

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Mike Gaynes
1 Posted 19/11/2013 at 06:30:07
My heavens. I've heard eulogies that were less effusive.

Roberto Martinez is a football manager. On the basis of 20 games (seven friendlies and 13 that mattered), he appears to be a very good one. I like his style, am absolutely amazed by almost clairvoyant ability to substitute, and wish him the very best of success.

But I find it a likely overstatement that Martinez' players all "love" him (if they all respect him, that's triumph enough in this modern era), and the fact is that his own "love" for Everton is transitory. He is a football manager, and like all football managers not named Sir Alex, he will (if successful) move on at some point for more money or a greater opportunity. They all do.

We are all behind him, Toby. Even those who criticize him. We all want him to succeed in spectacular fashion.

But as to thanking God for him... I'm not sure that even the most prayerful Everton fans would go quite that far in their devotions.

Wayne Smyth
2 Posted 19/11/2013 at 06:53:11
Toby, for all the bad things about Moyes, the vast majority of which I agree with, he did have his good side. It would be churlish not to say that he transformed an aged, shite side under Smith to a team which has a lot more youth, quality, and is able to compete near the top part of the league every season.

I do think however that his methods, tactics and thinking are not those of a manager destined to take a club like ours to win things, and I would be almost certain that he is not destined for anywhere near the kind of success at Utd that their fans have become accustomed to. Quite simply the guy is a safety-first manager who does not trust his players and he will buckle under the weight of expectation.

Quite simply, if you are going to win anything, you need to believe you're good enough. If you start talking your players down and your chances down, you will always underperform.

As has been said in many other threads, Roberto's reign so far has been imperfect. Lots of possession, but drawing too many games we could've won. However, like you, I see a long term positive vision in what he's trying to achieve.

I really like his attitude that a lack of money need not hold us back and that he doesn't want us to be in awe of whomever we play. I also think his attitude to developing and using young players will pay serious dividends in the medium/long term for us.

Its that kind of attitude and long term planning that wins you trophies and gets the players playing their best football. I take exception to fans who think this transition period should be smooth; that would be great, but is ultimately an unreasonable expectation of a new manager, with a new coaching staff, vastly different methods and strategy who is trying to integrate a bunch of new players and give our raw teenagers a chance to develop.

Overall I've been very impressed with what he's trying to achieve with us. I think he could be a great manager for us and take us to the next level. We just need to have a bit of belief in what he's trying to achieve and give him and the team our support during these early stages.

Mark Palmer
3 Posted 19/11/2013 at 07:56:07
Roberto has inherited someone else's squad some who want away and is asking them to play football they're not used to. So far apart from Jagielka's amazing inability so good.

But the Premier League is a rich list in which we feature half-way down. So, when we get a bad run (which we will) and finish out of the European places (which we will), I hope the fans keep the faith.

Wigan murdered us in the cup and beating Man City in the final was a triumph of minnow's tactics and guts over millionaires' swaggering entitlement. And we have the man who plotted it all. Aren't we lucky? Yes!

Iain Love
4 Posted 19/11/2013 at 08:30:23
I like many others didn't have Bobby as my 1st choice. Wigan where relegated on the back of a very poor defensive record, which to my mind outweighed the cup success.

Kenwright didn't agree with me and now we have him, so I for one will get behind him and the team. It's plain to see that our back four are struggling with the new ethos especially with a target man like Lukaku an easy option for a long punt upfield; when and how Bobby resolves that will tell me how good he ultimately will be for us.

So far, so good... but a testing time from now till after Christmas; a win and a positive attitude in the derby would be very nice indeed.

Phil Walling
5 Posted 19/11/2013 at 10:24:07
ToffeeWebbers' obsession with Moyes make me cringe. He's gone to make his nest somewhere else, good, forget him.

As for 'embracing Bobbie'- yuk! If he does better than Moyes, he'll be a fucking hero, if worse a detested villain.

He's a bloody football manager not a partner to love and cherish. He's like them all here for the money see him in that light and you won't get hurt.

Embrace him? You'll be screaming obscenities at him if we lose the derby!

Barry Rathbone
6 Posted 19/11/2013 at 10:38:21
Great post Toby judging by the attendances and general feeling about Everton you capture the zeitgeist perfectly.

There are a mere handful who go after Martinez, we could all name them, but overall even those who were strongly appreciative of Moyes have happily got on board with the new Everton and new manager.

Lukaku, Barry, McCarthy, Barkley with money available and within shouting distance of the top of the table, it's madness to be any other way.

Speed will come with practice and perhaps one or two changes but Martinez has done great.

Still hard to believe in his first season some appear to be waiting for Martinez to have a bad spell to put the boot right in peculiar support that.

Tony J Williams
7 Posted 19/11/2013 at 11:09:58
Thank God? What for? He's a manager, an employee of Everton who has the same record as our last manager at the same point as last season.

Last season Moyes was getting criticised after every game, now we have the exact same record, apart from less goals scored, and you are thanking God?

He's our manager, we stand behind him, that's what us fans do... but this over-the-top stuff is, to be blunt, quite pathetic.

We are as boring to watch this season as last, we are scoring less goals and it looks like our best player is about to be off.

Yeah, fucking thank God eh?

He will end up being as dour as Davey, as he will realise that he will not be getting any backing from the board and will have to sell his best players year on year to satisfy the fuckwit running the club.

I want his "philosophy" to come to fruition, but he needs to bend with the wind too. If tikka-takka is not working, as it hasn't the last two games, then change tactics and sometimes go direct. That doesn't mean hoofing the ball, it means moving the ball up the pitch at more speed than an arthritic 90-year-old with a walker.

Nick Entwistle
8 Posted 19/11/2013 at 11:08:05
When it came to the end of the article where address your headline, the quote from The Life of Brian came to mind...

Brian: "I'm not the Messiah!"
Arthur: "I say you are, lord, and I should know... I've followed a few."
James Lauwervine
9 Posted 19/11/2013 at 11:04:04
I don't think you can assume he's the same as the rest Phil. He always seemed a bit different to me and even back when watching his comments as Wigan manager I had to admire his honesty and dignity. Of course he may turn out to be a shocking manager for us in the long run, but every time I see/hear him I can't help but feel we're in a good position with him in charge.

Can you really say it's just about the money for him? I don't see how you can conclude that.The true test of course if the results over the next year or two, but I for one am happy to embrace him as our manager right now. Maybe I'm just an naive optimist, but rather that than a cynic.

Tony J Williams
10 Posted 19/11/2013 at 11:50:39
I'm with you on this James, I will embrace him as the Everton manager but all the posters who are going over the top, "we could all name them" are pretty much turning into the Dodster's of the Martinez regime.

Nothing much has changed yet, I know it is early days, but we are having posts to rejoice at the altar of Martinez, when he's done nothing out of the ordinary......yet!

Jimmy Srheim
11 Posted 19/11/2013 at 12:00:00
Nothing to be cheerful about for me. I think that losing Baines and Fellaini in one season will be crushing. I hope Baines will stay because RM will not sell, but likely he is gone.

Nothing to love about Martinez yet.

James Flynn
12 Posted 19/11/2013 at 12:41:55
Well Toby, if you think it will help, next time I see Roberto I’ll give him a hug.
Sam Hoare
13 Posted 19/11/2013 at 13:21:47
I'm all for getting onboard the Martinez train but it's a bit early to be getting out the celebratory flags. Hopefully we can put one or two small ones up after the derby but this a long term project and it's only in a year or two that we will be able to see its success or lack of.
Kevin Tully
14 Posted 19/11/2013 at 13:33:42
I don't know many fans who gave Moyes abuse during his first 6 or 7 years, maybe the odd one or two.

Can someone explain why battle lines are seemingly being drawn with some of our support after the new man has had only a few months in charge?

Honestly, I'm baffled.

It's not as if we are in the bottom half of the League, as we were more often than not under the last regime. I hate to think what the tone would be on here if that was the case.

Tony J Williams
15 Posted 19/11/2013 at 14:53:49
It's not really battle lines Kevin, not with me anyway.

I just find it a little early to be praising Martinez as the "One", seeing as we have nothing different to last year....as I said, yet!

The "Just because it's not Moyes", doesn't do it for me I'm afraid.

Nothing was said too much about Moyes, as he came in to a shite side on the slide and not much was expected of him. There is a great deal more expectation and pressure for Martinez, as we all want him to be the one to push us that bit further and win us something.

The tone probably would have matched the same as last season Kevin, moaning about all the draws.

Craig Walker
16 Posted 19/11/2013 at 14:45:31
I like Bobby. I think he talks us up and understands what Everton FC stands for. I hope he succeeds for us and has us playing a more stylish brand of football.

Moyes was good for Everton but I lost count of the number of fans I know from other clubs who would refuse to watch Everton games on TV because of their dour style. I've spent many an hour arguing our case but ultimately I agreed with them.

We had some great performances under Moyes and some truly awful ones. I remember getting hammered one December by Bolton at Goodison. I remember a Christmas break that featured Villa hammering us at Villa Park and then the RS putting three past us. I also recall Moyes's Everton with Wayne Rooney et al finishing 4th from bottom with the lowest points tally in our history.

I wish people would stop putting OFM on some kind of pedestal. Colin Harvey got us in the top 4 and to an FA Cup Final and was sacked unceremoniously.

Nick Entwistle
18 Posted 19/11/2013 at 14:51:04
Just posting this to make comparisons with the 'all aboard the Martinez train' talk above. TW is great for going back in time, as it were... Just change the managers' names and these two excerpts from back in the day wouldn't look out of place after certain games this season.

On Moyes, after final home game in his 9 game stint of 01-02...

"For the second home game in succession the players were, quite rightly, booed off the park. Also for the second home match in succession Moyes resisted the temptation to ring the changes.

Despite having so many attacking players on the pitch we never attacked with any sense of purpose or conviction. Even into the dying minutes and despite being only one goal behind there was no sense of urgency. Summed up the overall performance really.

Despite being implored to stay by our overly verbose stadium announcer, I really didn't feel like staying and applauding our underperforming team. A performance like today's just kicks the hope and optimism out of you. Two home games ago we were all hopeful and buoyant. The Leicester and Blackburn games have nipped that particular bud of optimism. In a sense maybe that's as well, this has been a dreadful season, and now that the boost of a new manager has been dissipated, we shouldn't forget that we are left with a mediocre squad that has been struggling for a long time. We are probably finishing the season on the right note."

And on Moyes after 11 games of 02-03...

"As a team, we are performing, at last, at a level greater than the sum of our parts. Credit for that goes to Moyes, who — more than anything — has completely transformed the mood of the Club. We know he hates to lose and wants to win. For him, 'nil satis nisi optimum', actually means something.

We now go to Leeds where we surely have our best chance of a win in many years. Moyes, we can be sure, will have no time for stories of 'bogey' grounds and will send the team out to win the game. How different from Smith, who seemed to go to places like Elland Road simply trying to contain the margin of defeat. I'm not yet brave enough to predict a win; I don't think we'll lose though, and that would be progress. Come on you Blues!"

What I draw from this, If anything, is the manager 'getting' the club' argument will inevitably come down to how successful you view their time in charge. And... well, a manager is only as good as his latest run of results.

Moyes out! No, wait, Martinez out.. erm, whatever... we all want a win this weekend so, come on you Blues!

Gavin Ramejkis
19 Posted 19/11/2013 at 15:08:15
Like you said Kevin, baffling but some really can't give it up and go on and on ad nauseum.
Harold Matthews
20 Posted 19/11/2013 at 12:44:30
I felt pretty safe with Moyes and liked the way he used the fullbacks but it was time for him to go.

We now have a new young manager with a long term plan for future success and I will hopefully enjoy the way it all unfolds, bearing in mind his admiration of Barcelona, Bielsa and the John Toshack youth system.

This youth system is already underway with Dennis Lawrence brought in to liaise between all the different groups and earmark those youngsters who are extra comfortable with the new strategy. Eventually, after honing their skills with Sheedy and co, they will move on to Stubbs and Unsworth who will work on their maturity and mental strength.

As for the main squad. We're sitting higher than I expected but the Palace game was a massive disappointment. They wanted it more than we did and that cannot be allowed. This is why Martinez wants players of the right character, There were too many out there who didn't fancy it.

Let's hope they return from the international break fit, well and ready to go. Judging by the second half performances against Chelsea and Spurs, we're a match for anyone when we put it all in and I believe Martinez will have them all up for the tasks which lie ahead. If they are not putting it all in he will pull them off early, and they know it.

Tony J Williams
21 Posted 19/11/2013 at 15:40:54
It's not really a pedestal Craig, it's just that some on here refuse to accept that he was the Devil incarnate and the worst manager ever at Everton....as some would try and have you believe (or infer it)

Again though another post gets derailed with the arguments about Moyes. He left us to go to the Mancs and has turned into a right prick.

He is no longer worthy of our discussion, he is the enemy. Lets focus on Martinez, his good AND his bad points....because every manager has them.

James Flynn
22 Posted 19/11/2013 at 15:40:43
Harold (981) - "As for the main squad. We’re sitting higher than I expected but the Palace game was a massive disappointment. They wanted it more than we did and that cannot be allowed. This is why Martinez wants players of the right character, There were too many out there who didn’t fancy it"

A perspective I hadn’t considered. Everton players of the last 3-4 years lacking character.

And Roberto gets a free pass for how he sent our boys out to play Palace with tails tucked. Interesting.

Nick Entwistle
28 Posted 19/11/2013 at 16:40:49
Wouldn't a team who pass the ball negate 'wanting it' as a characteristic?

'I'm really up for this game, totally 110% and I'll fight tooth and nail by holding position and passing to Garreth Barry',

Barca, Arsenal or whoever, would out thought the opposition, not out fort to victory. Thanks goes to Clive Tydlesly for that genius.

Barry Rathbone
29 Posted 19/11/2013 at 17:16:02
Well done Toby once Darren Hind chimes in you will have netted the whole shoal.
Patrick Murphy
30 Posted 19/11/2013 at 17:30:20
James Flynn it has been a character flaw in the Everton make-up for many years - Harold is correct. I have been banging on about it for many moons - Everton if they are limited in ability should never ever be outfought by any Premier League team.

I also agree that games against the likes of Palace tell us far more about the character of the team than games against the more glamorous clubs - remember Oldham, Wigan, Reading et al all in recent memory and every season for many years they have shown this destructive trait.

Managers no matter how good; shouldn't have to motivate a team to play in the correct way or to make them run about for each other - it should be a given and I bet RM was as annoyed and shocked as we were with the teams performance at Selhurst Park.

Andy Crooks
31 Posted 19/11/2013 at 17:32:17
Toby, if someone had written that article about Moyes ten years ago I'd have thought it totally unnecessary. The fact you have written it now demonstrates a landslide change in what we expect from our coach. Martinez is our coach, like it or not and this is the road we are on.

To feel the need to defend him, and I understand why you do, typifies the appalling quick fix attitude of the Premier League. We are well short of half way through the season and I am baffled as to why there have been, on others threads, talk of relegation in the future . Give the man the same chance David Moyes got.

Wayne Smyth
32 Posted 19/11/2013 at 16:09:23

"If tikka-takka is not working, as it hasn't the last two games, then change tactics and sometimes go direct. That doesn't mean hoofing the ball, it means moving the ball up the pitch at more speed than an arthritic 90-year-old with a walker."

I don't believe Martinez wants us to play slow football and let the opposition get 11 behind the ball before we try to work it forward. Its just our players are struggling for form and perhaps failing to adapt to what he wants as quickly as we want.

Roberto has a long-term vision. He and his methods are new to our players. If after 2 games things aren't "working", then Martinez should absolutely not throw his core philosophy out the window and go more direct. He should simply work with the players to get them playing his style of football more effectively.

Football is a results business, but I'd be happy to finish mid-table this year and let the players really absorb and learn Martinez's way of playing football if it means that longer term we're better placed to challenge for a champions league spot.

As Roberto said, money is no barrier to success, but things just take longer. I think we need to be patient and personally I'm happy to buy into his vision and give the guy at least a couple of years to get us playing really well, as opposed to just a couple of games.

I hate to make comparisons with the RS, but they were a laughing stock last year trying to play the way Rodgers wanted them to and being near the bottom of the league, but they're really clicking this season. Sometimes fans need to be patient for the right kind of progress.

Kevin Tully
33 Posted 19/11/2013 at 18:23:37
The strangest part of this call to arms to get behind the new Everton manager is that we are playing in a derby this weekend, hoping to go joint 2nd in the League.

If you didn't know our League position - strangers would think we were in the bottom three with these calls to back the manager.

The manager has also stated he thinks we have the capacity to match the moneyed elite, once we come to terms with the changes he wants to make. Shouldn't we be happy with this ambition?

Scott Jones
34 Posted 19/11/2013 at 18:08:24
Well said, Toby. I was also very bored by the negativity of David Moyes. the media's love affair with Moyes was at times vomit-inducing! Words like "exceptional" and "phenomenal" were thrown around like confetti to describe his job at Everton. The word "okay" is more apt, I think.

Jurgen Klopp has done an "exceptional" job at Dortmund. When Herr Klopp took the reigns at Dortmund five years ago, Dortmund were in a worse state than us: little money, poor squad... The youth system was Klopp's first priority, a template high on Seor Bobby's agenda.

Dortmund are proof that it is possible in the modern era to assemble a talented squad without an owner with more money than brain cells. Let's give Roberto time; we could be the next Dortmund.

Jamie Sweet
35 Posted 19/11/2013 at 19:18:37
I'm all aboard the Martinez train.

When trying to think of any negatives about his time in charge so far, I think it is the number of times I have heard the term "DNA" used in a footballing context since he joined.

Other than that minor issue, I think he's the man!

Mick Davies
37 Posted 19/11/2013 at 22:44:15
If he was only after money, why did he turn Liverpool down? I'm sure they would have paid him more than we can
Jim Harrison
38 Posted 20/11/2013 at 02:40:36
I think that the comparisons between Moyes's appointment and Bobby's are in the main missing a crucial point. Moyes took over a club in the shit and turned it around, he reached a certain level and left. Martinez's job is not to avoid relegation but to move the team forward. He has been employed to take Moyes squad and develop it further, add the elements previously missing like style whilst maintaining the previous level of attainment in regards of league placing. Whether he succeeds in the long run is yet to be found out, but the expectations on him are rightfully high.

His predecessor set the bar in terms of overall achievement high. He has inherited a very decent squad, which has admittedly lost one of its star performers, but he has spent a reported 34M on bolstering this season!! (McCarthy 13M, Kone 6M, Lukaku 6M, Barry 6M)

Whilst you could argue that the loan signings don't count as their fees cover mainly wages, there will be no sell on value for these players, so they are an outgoing cost. There is no way Everton would sign a player on Barry's wages normally. So in many ways he is correct in stating that lack of funds isn't an issue, as he has spent more in one window than Moyes ever did, offset by selling one of the most valuable assets, and an amazing piece of business getting 5 million for Vic!!

I am not trying to advocate Moyes here. His time is over, and rightly so. Even if he hadn't had the Man Utd job lined up it was probably time for something different. But Martinez has taken a job that sees him in charge of one of British footballs biggest and most successful club in a relatively healthy position on the pitch. He has spent big by Everton standards and brought in a more patient style that has the potential to bring exciting times in the future, but I think it is fair for fans to be able to highlight areas that are frustrating or baffling, as it is for fans to highlight the positives of the new style.

Yes he is being judged fairly harshly (although relegation fears are a little over the top) but he has made a big step up from Wigan and expectations at this club are high. Nil Statis Nisi Optimum.

John Ford
43 Posted 20/11/2013 at 05:15:47
The summary of Moyes is the usual TW fare in that it doesn't give credit where it's due. I wouldn't bother saying anything about anymore about he fella if these posts didn't keep landing, if it weren't for the failure of some to at least acknowledge that he made us competitive and that while being best of the rest isn't exactly were our ambitions are, he did get closer than anyone to challenging the money clubs. Having said that, I too acknowledged his weaknesses in big games and his unwillingness to change.

That said I'm now a supported of RM, and he gives us probably the best chance of exceeding what Moyes did in the premier league. It's a tough ask to get into the top six these days. With Spurs and Man City now able to spend big RM has a harder job, certainly than than Moyes early years in putting us into CL placings. He will be doing well to get us top six, and top four would be incredible. Good luck to the lad. I really don't get the criticism of him. He's not able to buy the best players so what are people really expecting him to do?

Jim Harrison
44 Posted 20/11/2013 at 07:59:07
Ooh, and theres more! According to this site, in the transfers section Robles cost 4.5 million. Not sure if that is accurate as I thought he was free?
Wayne Smyth
45 Posted 20/11/2013 at 09:06:13
Jim, Robles was definitely not free. He was on loan to Wigan from Atletico Madrid, and I believe he was signed for 1.5M or thereabouts from Madrid. Possibly add-ons for future appearances, international caps etc could conceivably mean we end up paying more, but I don't think we paid anywhere near 4.5M for him.

I think you've applying some double standards if you count wages in the "money spent" column for Martinez and then fail to count what he saved on wages from selling felli/anichebe or what Moyes spent on wages for his loan signings....and to be frank I'm happy spending 70k on players of the calibre of Barry and Lukaku rather than spend 20k on McFadden/Straq

While Barry might not have any resale value, he's also available for free at the end of the season and we'd be in pole position to take him if he does well.

You're also correct in stating that Martinez is required to improve on what Moyes did for us, but you fail to acknowledge that sometimes you need to take a step back to move forwards. Getting used to a new system and bedding in new players means that the transition is bound not to be smooth.

Jim Harrison
46 Posted 20/11/2013 at 09:38:39
Wayne, the price for Roubles was on this site, thats why I questioned it.

Yes I understand that there were loan fee previously, though I cannot believe they were of the level of these two. The wages saved could also be set against the wages of Macarthy, Kone, Roubles & Alcaraz as well, so over all I think the cost of the loans would stand aside from the wage gains. Only fella would have been on significant wages anyway. The point was more that significant money has actually been spent. I did not set out to defend the previous manager simply to make the point that the new one has taken over in vastly different circumstances and should be judged on his achievements in a different context, as should Moyes I his new role compared to Ferguson, but thats for utd fans to discuss!

As for your last sentence, I have more than covered my opinions on that in other threads, but in short I appreciate what has been done so far and acknowledge that this is not the finished article. But also I would like to see the ball moved forward with urgency, I don't think many would disagree with that suggestion? I have not levied any serious criticism at Martinez, just stated that expectations of him are justifiably high, and at this point of the season he is doing well.

Kevin Hudson
47 Posted 20/11/2013 at 09:56:10
It's revealing that the author 'likes' Walter Smith, a man who had us playing the worst kind of alehouse football, yet 'despise' the man who transformed that garbage into the most competitive squad we've had in a generation.

What a malicious waste of cyber-ink.

Wayne Smyth
48 Posted 20/11/2013 at 09:52:58
Jim, I don't think we paid a loan fee for Barry, just a proportion of his wages. I think about 70k. McCarthy I think is on 40k / week, same as Anichebe.

We got rid of Phil Neville on 50k / week, Hitzlsperger and Mucha neither of whom would've been cheap.

I'd be surprised if we're now spending any more on wages than we did previously. Loan fee's I think were payable for Lukaku (3M) and Deulofeu (not sure how much but probably ~1M depending on appearances).

The loan signings that Martinez has made have taken us to a new level and provided real first team quality, whereas the loan signings we were paying for previously added nothing other than bench warmers.

Jim Harrison
49 Posted 20/11/2013 at 10:25:59
Agreed on the standard of the players Wayne, and where have I criticised any of the signings or their quality?

As for the balance of wages yes there will be a balance of sorts, but the basis of my point remains the same! Barry's wages were believed to be 100% of his Man City agreement, 6.5 million a year. I believe Lukaku's fee was supposed to be around 6 million. So yeah, no loan fee for Barry, but a committed cost of 6 million with no potential return, or even an assurance that we have "first refusal", he could go to Stoke if they offer him more!

The point remains he has had a decent kitty, all be it at the expense of one of the better performers in the team. He has done well with that money (well, with the loans. I cant agree that Kone was worth it, and Alcaraz was injured in the first place) and those players have overall balanced the squad better. So in a sense we are saying similar things, except you are not inclined to believe the players cost anything?

Again I ask you, where exactly have I made it sound as if any of the signings (Kone & Alcaraz excepted) represent either bad value or do not add to the team?

John Ford
50 Posted 20/11/2013 at 11:44:12
Wayne, you can't say anything has taken us to a new level yet. That is until we see how we go on this season and in my view next. I won't be making any firm conclusions on RM until he's had two years to work and develop our team. It's a good start and I'm feeling good about our future, but it's too soon to suggest we've reached some higher level or that we are making a serious challenge to break the glass ceiling.
Richard Tarleton
51 Posted 20/11/2013 at 12:04:44
One of the key things I'll judge him on is how we play in the derby games. I agree Moyes was vastly over-rated by the media and non-Everton fans and Martinez seems to me to be a lot better, but one of the litmus tests will be this Saturday's game and how we approach it.
Michael Brien
52 Posted 20/11/2013 at 12:40:34
I think the key thing is patience not a popular word with most fans these days. However, regardless of the result in the derby, I feel that we need to give Martinez time. As the saying goes, "Rome wasn't built in a Day". There are a few things that I think we should all remember.

1) Some Evertonians rubbished RM's record at Wigan yes, they got relegated, but do you honestly think that the likes of Ferguson, Wenger and Mourinho could've done better on one of the smallest transfer budgets in the Premier League?

I know that Ferguson and Mourinho have stacks of trophies to their name... but say Ferguson had stayed at Aberdeen and Mourinho at Porto could both have maintained the same level of success at those clubs? Yes, the aformentioned guys are talented managers but a 100m transfer budget does help!

2) Yes, Wigan struggled in the Premier League. It's been mentioned several times that RM had the backing of his Chairman, but he also had the backing of the Wigan fans. Not many managers of clubs that are struggling could've said that. At no time can I recall the Wigan fans turning against him I think that speaks volumes.

3) It's been mentioned that RM has inherited a good team but Moyes has inherited a title winning team and a multi million pound transfer budget as well. Which one of the two has been doing the better job do you think?

Time will tell on that one and for different reasons as I have been telling friends who follow Man United Moyes needs to be given time. All new managers need to be given time to establish themselves at their new clubs.

4) Everton as the new Borussia Dortmund?? Yes, please. However, the success of Dortmund hasn't occurred overnight. They had great trophy success in the late 1990s but then nearly went bankrupt!! They have had some mid-table seasons in the early 2000s but in the last 5 years they have established themselves as a force. I think that's largely been a case of sensible signings and developing their own players rather than mega signings.

5) With regard to Moyes, a fact that seems to have been forgotten is that he has yet to win a game at Anfield, Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge or The Emirates. I make that approx 44 games in 11 seasons. Any thoughts on that?

Like all Evertonians I hope RM is successful as Everton manager. But let's give him time before we start to pass judgement.

Wayne Smyth
54 Posted 20/11/2013 at 12:27:05
John, I think its clear to see that Lukaku and Barry are a different class of player to what we had in Jelly/Neville, but perhaps the team is not yet jelling so its wrong to say as a team or club we're operating on a different level.

Jim, I never accused you of saying anything, but I'm making the point that if overall we are paying higher salaries than last season(and I'm not convinced we are), then we're clearly getting higher quality players who actually make a difference to our game, rather than expensive bench warmers.

I'm also fairly sure you're wrong on Lukaku's fee. The information in the public domain when we got him pointed to a 3m fee, + wages. As for Barry, he was on about 100k / week at city, but everything I read at the time said we were only paying a portion of that:

For example:


I've always said we need to be open about moving on players if big bids come in. Moyes did it several times with Lescott and Rooney and was able to improve the squad. For the 33M that Martinez generated through the sales of Anichebe and Fellaini, he had all of 1 hour to spend any of it, so I'll be interested in who he looks to buy in January and next summer.

James Flynn
55 Posted 20/11/2013 at 13:07:59
Patrick (004) - Re-reading Harold’s post and my response to it, I’m not sure he was saying what I interpreted it as.

As far as getting in players with character, I’m all for that. I just feel we’ve had those kind of players.

Regarding, "Managers no matter how good; shouldn’t have to motivate a team to play in the correct way or to make them run about for each other - it should be a given and I bet RM was as annoyed and shocked as we were with the teams performance at Selhurst Park". Oh boy.

Picture some wording 180 degrees from that, and you have my opinion on any manager’s primary responsibility.

Or, God Forbid, this weekend sees the 12th straight game we haven’t witnessed a single 90-minute display of effort from the team. Well, you and few others can keep calling for "patience", I’ll be pissed. At our manager.

Mick Davies
56 Posted 20/11/2013 at 21:27:20
You could say that Moyes inherited a decent squad too, with Carsley, Gravesen, Radzinski, Campbell, Ferguson, Weir, Naysmith, and some fans faves, Osman and Hibbert. Not forgetting the best British player of his generation.

Most of those gave him years of service, and regards Rooney, he managed to piss him off with hours of Head Tennis!!! So much for being "in the shit" as Jim Harrison says...

Martinez inherited an ageing squad where most players e.g. Osman, Distin, Hibbert and Pienaar had all seen better days, and Anichebe, Naismith, Jelavic etc were shit and he had to use major surgery in his first few months, while Moyes only added Yobo and Li Tie (who was forced on him by sponsors but turned out to be very useful more luck for DM) to achieve stability. Moyes was lucky again to be given the PL Champions, but doesn't seem to know what to do with them, whereas we are looking okay with Roberto. COYB

Patrick Murphy
57 Posted 20/11/2013 at 22:04:28
I'm confused about what you are trying to say James #119. I am saying that the players have very often put in performances that are way under par and beneath their capabilities under both managers. You blame the current manager I blame the players.

By 'character', I don't mean that the players will lay their bodies on the line and block every ball in and around their own penalty area; I mean that they should have the bottle and ruthlessness to attack with purpose and desire.

I wouldn't expect any manager to walk into Goodison and instill that overnight David Moyes couldn't and he was here for 11 years and in the end he decided to leave, which has given Roberto the opportunity to address the problem, but it will take at least 12 months not 11 matches. BTW how many 90-minute displays have we seen in the last five years?

Toby Smith
58 Posted 20/11/2013 at 21:53:46
Kev Hudson #089 , I said Walter was a 'good guy' I didn't say he was a great manager. He didn't proclaim us as the People's club then crawl up SAF's arse in his best trousers whilst garnering the applause of the faithful at Goodison (me and quite a few aside) whilst being the Mancs manager. 'Good guy' Walter was and is a decent man, Moyes was a decent manager but ultimately poor and confrontational with the media (which means less info for our fans) as well as very self serving and tactically one-dimensional. "A malicious waste of cyber-ink" How long did it take you to Google that phrase?

Mike Gaynes Seems you've become an authority on Everton since your pre-season pictures of Everton in the USA, It's a short, cheap flight. Get yourself on one and get to the Old Lady, sample the atmosphere, feel the pleasure and the pain........ Oh sorry, is that a STH picking on someone who's never been near the ground? Watching on TV doesn't cost you a ton (that's 100) that taking yourself and two teenagers to GP every home game does, show your commitment, we can all watch it for nothing mate!

Doesn't make you less of Evertonian but certainly doesn't make you more of an authority. Look forward to buying you a beer.

Kevin Tully
59 Posted 20/11/2013 at 22:18:15
With you all the way on 'jeansgate' there Toby.

How was anyone supposed to go to Old Trafford and win, if you were shit scared to even turn up at your masters house wearing some denim? (unless they were hot pants!)

Give me the likes of Benitez any day, who wanted to take whiskey-nose on at his own game.

All this deferential bollocks we heard about after he had left made me want to puke.

Barry Rathbone
60 Posted 20/11/2013 at 22:26:32
Mick 190.

Well said, the lack of talent Moyes inherited was never as bad as some portray.

Reality kicked in during that period no longer were we at the top table and a short term cutting of our cloth accordingly was the order of the day.

The appointment of a complete unknown demonstrated the point but unfortunately the short term fix became a stagnant 11 years.

Jim Harrison
61 Posted 20/11/2013 at 23:57:36
Mick and Barry, the talent in the squad may not have been all that bad, but the position they were in was. And they were not playing to their full potential. So he changed that and got then playing better and slowly added to that squad to get to where it was at the end of last season.

Bobby has added to this, evolving it further.

But he inherited a team in 6th rather than one in the lower reaches of the division. That unfortunately is an irrefutable fact.

Paul Ferry
62 Posted 21/11/2013 at 02:13:03
'I'm confused about what you are trying to say James #119' - Patrick Murphy (195). Your not alone Pat mate. How about this gem - 'the 12th straight game we haven't witnessed a single 90-minute display of effort from the team'.

Let's say that Flynn's understanding of what he calls 'soccer' and our beloved Blues is in US university terms C-minus.

John Zapa
63 Posted 19/11/2013 at 19:56:24
If money isn't important for success/survival then why did he get relegated with Wigan? I think this derby will be the defining moment in RM's Everton career.
Michael Brien
64 Posted 21/11/2013 at 07:22:05
I think that it would be rather unwise and indeed unfair to judge RM solely on the result of Saturday's Derby and that's win, lose or draw. To those who prefer to do that just a reminder from our history what were the results of Howard Kendall's first 4 Derby matches as Everton manager?

1981-82 1-3 defeat at Anfield 1-3 defeat at Goodison
1982-83 0-5 defeat at Goodison 0-0 draw at Anfield.

Howard Kendall is rightly revered and held in high esteem by Evertonians, a good job we didn't judge him solely on results in the Derby match?! Glad that we didn't make those matches a "defining" moment in HK's Everton career!!

Just a thought... patience may not be in fashion now I'm very glad that back in 1983 we seemed to have more of it!! Perhaps we need to get back to that way of thinking?

John Zapa
65 Posted 21/11/2013 at 10:53:44
It's not just the result I am referring to, it's more the performance.
Barry Rathbone
66 Posted 21/11/2013 at 11:27:50
John Zapa 222

Think you made that "not important" guff up.

RM said it affects the rate of progress it doesn't take Einstein to realise if not having enough to stand still means you eventually go backwards exactly what happened at Wigan.

Steve Brown
67 Posted 21/11/2013 at 11:28:57
Of course RM will be judged on whether he gets a win in the Derby on Saturday. Unlike Moyes and Kendall, he took over a top 6 squad and the best way for him to differentiate himself from OFM is to send the team out with an ambitious game plan to beat the Shite. I see this as a big opportunity for him to show how his footballing philosophy will take us further forward than Moyes managed.
Steve Brown
70 Posted 21/11/2013 at 11:38:02
Plus if we take the lead and then go defensive, la Moyes, I will be forced to smash something up.
Kevin Tully
71 Posted 21/11/2013 at 11:43:50
We've won 1 derby out of the last 13.

Let's give it to Martinez if he doesn't win on Saturday.

Nick Entwistle
72 Posted 21/11/2013 at 11:24:38
Jeez Toby, don't rip on Mike because he's from the States.

You post an article on TW, expect it to be slated, hope for some praise. Only he didn't slate it, he probably agrees with much of it.

You say people should embrace Martinez. But no one 'should' do anything and certainly not because you say so, whether or not you spawned two teenagers (congratulations).

Kevin Hudson
73 Posted 21/11/2013 at 12:05:25

Unfortunately, your rebuttal serves only to weaken an already-spurious hit-piece, partially due to the fact that Moyes (sadly) never gave you a big hug & kiss when you met him, and that he wasn't in bed with the media.

I don't recall Catterick being especially effusive towards the press...I also remember Walter's crashingly-dull, weekly lamentations with a shudder.

Smith may well have been a decent guy, but when it comes to judging him, that's a complete irrelevance when the man was so bereft of ideas that he signed David Ginola, and put Steve Watson up front.

Essentially, you're appraising Gaffers by personality rather than performance... and that's about as cosmetic as it gets.

By your own prose, you despise Moyes despite him spending 11 years of his life over-hauling 15 years of wretched decline. For me, that lacks any grace whatsoever. The only thing you & I agree on is the title; Martinez, like Moyes, has my full-throated support.

John Keating
74 Posted 21/11/2013 at 12:23:23
Martinez is definitely more media friendly. Apart from that so far he's done sod all.

Let's give him a couple of seasons before we give him it one way or another. Beating the Sky 4 plus the RedShite would be helpful!

James Flynn
75 Posted 21/11/2013 at 12:27:25
Patrick (195) - No confusion for me. We’re applying the word character differently.

What’s also not confusing is my insisting that the team going hard for 90 minutes has everything to do with the manager.

Raymond Fox
77 Posted 21/11/2013 at 12:51:55
Nice one Toby, but we are going over the same old ground once more. Replies from the same 'glass half empty' members who expect miraculous improvement in 5 mins! Get real gents.

It's fair to say that Moyes did an excellent job in securing a high position most years, and it's going to be very difficult for Roberto to better his achievements, especially in the short term, I think most of us know this.

Again to state the obvious, money buys success in the Prem. and we are way below the top teams in that league. Apart from the club changing ownership, our only other option is for us to produce our own top class young players, but that isn't going to be easy; every club is trying to do the same.

In my opinion, Roberto is the right man to attempt to take this club forward, it's going to be a monumental task, but if anyone can on our current budget, it's RM the least we can do is to support him for a year or two!

Eugene Ruane
78 Posted 21/11/2013 at 14:24:57
Human nature being what it is, I don't for one minute expect those having a go at RM after 11 games to admit "Oh yeah I definitely AM being staggeringly and stupidly impatient" but imo that is exactly what their behaviour is.

That said, it is quite entertaining reading the lame 'Yes he should be given time but..' preambles before the ADHD-level impatience kicks in.

It's like reading..

"I am a very reasonable, stable, calm individual, but FUCKWANKARSEOFF!!! (falls on deck weeping).

Michael Brien
79 Posted 21/11/2013 at 16:55:12
Steve#242 - Yes RM has inherited a better squad than Kendall or Moyes but let's have a look at Gordon Lee's and Walter Smith's last Derby results.

1) 1980-81 Gordon Lee's last season
2-2 at Goodison and 0-1 at Anfield in the League
2-1 at Goodison in the FA Cup

2) 2001-02 Walter Smith's last season
1-3 at Goodison and 1-1 at Anfield

What does that prove you say ? Well perhaps not making the Derby Match a defining moment would be a start. Walter Smith actually managed a victory at Anfield - more than David Moyes managed with superior players. Of course overall David Moyes was a better Everton manager.

The Derby will be a big test, but not a defining moment. Even an Everton victory which I hope will be the outcome would not alter my opinion. I think it's far too early to talk in terms of defining moments. We may not like the idea of patience - but as I mentioned before thank goodness patience was shown to Howard Kendall. We like to sing " If you know your History......" Well let's learn from that history of ours.Give Martinez time!!!

Mick Davies
80 Posted 23/11/2013 at 01:28:37
Could these "fans" who decry every Martinez move please tell me who our debt-riddled club could have employed? Laudrup ruled himself out, Fergiie retired and Guardiola was unavailable. If the club had put a caretaker in charge for a few months and things went wrong, then the same people would have been slagging Kenwright to death.

Martinez is our manager and he's at least trying to change our boring system to something resembling football. He needs time to build a team that can play the way he wants and to replace the ageing squad he inherited, and he's not being helped by our previous boss unsettling his players and some fans giving him a hard time.

I hope the derby atmosphere is positive, despite the early KO, and we can all be a bit more patient with a man who's proved he can win trophies and play attractive football with lesser clubs than Everton.

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