David Moyes was given 11 years and counting at Everton compared to less than 11 months at Old Trafford. I’ve no doubt that this says something about both clubs but I’m not sure exactly what. His management of expectation at Goodison Park was masterly. He established with the press and many supporters the image of plucky Everton punching above their weight year after year.

It almost became a fact that this was as good as it could get for Everton; that Moyes alone could keep the club safe. I have disagreed with this view for many years. In my view, the best of Moyes was saving the club from relegation in his first season and removing the label "crisis club Everton". I believe that the last 12 months have shown that the last years of his tenure were lost years for Everton; years of stagnation.

I don’t want to go in to the pros and cons of his reign. Stones and Coleman are a testament to some of the good things he did.

My point is that many of us believed that Everton was as good as it could ever get for Moyes. His demise has come slightly quicker than I expected but has his failure at Old Trafford surprised any Evertonian?

He clearly believed what the press wrote about him. He astonishingly believed that his backroom team at Everton were better than the team surrounding Ferguson. He believed that it was his right to come back to Everton and tempt our players to his new "bigger" club.

What he could never do was manage the expectations of the supporters of Man Utd. Twenty five years of success was never going to allow that and his attempts to do so were just rather pathetic. He was never good enough for Manchester United and for many years I believed he wasn’t good enough for us.

I would feel uneasy gloating over the demise of a man whose ineptitude has been so publicly exposed. However, the bailiffs won’t be calling at his door and he’s not going to be searching for any food banks. His rewards have vastly outstripped anything that his achievements have merited.

He is part of Everton’s history and as such will always have some relevance... but we don’t take knives to gunfights anymore.

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Adam Baig
1 Posted 22/04/2014 at 14:54:42
It was no surprise to this Evertonian! I told every United fan I know he would not last more than a season. (The OBE joke was rolled out!)

Was never a winner, and never will be.

Brent Stephens
2 Posted 22/04/2014 at 15:33:59
Hubris; and now the Nemesis. Hopefully that's Catharsis for TWebbers and we hear no more of it all.
Gary Creaney
3 Posted 22/04/2014 at 16:24:50
Some people may totally disagree but I feel it is important that we get the Moyes years off our chest and if venting through Everton forums is one of those means then so be it. When we've all had our "told you so" moments, it will eventually pass and we'll be away on to bigger and better things.

If you believe Moyes was good for Everton then you are right for approximately the first half of his tenure. If you believe Moyes was no good for Everton then you are right for approximately the second half of his tenure.

He stopped the rot, steadied the ship and then improved our league position. He also lead us to bad start after bad start and played Neville in midfield. There are arguments for and against his time at Everton but surely now it is beyond reasonable doubt that we have improved significantly since he left, and Man Utd got significantly worse since he joined. That cannot be a coincidence.

The most appropriate analogy I've read, and it was likely on TW in regards to the contrasting styles & limitations of Moyes/Martinez, was that Moyes was the scaffold builder, building it up to the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel before Martinez took over to paint it.

Matt Traynor
4 Posted 22/04/2014 at 17:06:34
Andy, I agree with what you say, although I would also venture that the last few years at Everton were wasted years for Moyes as well. We'd had all the shit before with his previous contract - something that to my mind was never adequately explained either publicly or via "ITKs". I don't know whether he was thinking he was going to go then, that the paucity of resources available under the current owners was going to damage his career in the longer term, but for whatever reason he dragged it out, eventually signed, but never seemed to have the same fire.

His public utterances after that conveyed the arrogance that we were lucky to have him. My personal final straw was after the 3-0 capitulation at Anfield before the FA Cup replay at Sunderland, but it got worse for me after that.

Sadly I think if RM continues his progression of Everton, without a change in ownership, we won't see anything like 11 years for him as he will also, like Moyes, think he's worthy of a bigger stage.

Joe McMahon
5 Posted 22/04/2014 at 20:03:46
Matt, you are bang on. Strangely I was ripped to shreds on this very site 2 years ago when I said I wanted Martinez in and Moyes out!

I'd just seen Wigan win at Arsenal and Victor Moses ran caused havoc. No way would Moyes have done that with Wigan, or even Everton.

Rob Halligan
6 Posted 22/04/2014 at 19:39:59
Roberto Martinez is 41 years of age. He could quite easily carry on being a manager for another 25 or 30 years at least.

I firmly believe he will stay at Everton for at least 10 years and build up a dynasty to crack the premier league and Europe. The man turned down Villa and the shite but came to us without any hesitation so clearly he must have seen some potential in our squad.

We have already heard one or two players saying it is more enjoyable playing under Bobby M rather than OFM. Also what did Baines know or think that made him turn down the approaches of man utd?

The way I see it, we need to sign another keeper, right back, centre back, another central midfielder and probably 2 strikers.

The likes of Robles clearly isn't up to premier league standards. We have more than sufficient cover at left back. Can't see Distin having the legs to cope with league, domestic cups and European football next season and if we can't keep Barry then we will need another holding/central midfielder along side McCarthy.

Our strikers situation needs no explanation. I would personally like to keep hold of lukaku, but as with most strikers nowadays won't come cheap.

Let Bobby M dominate English football and Europe for 10 years then he can go to his dream job at Barcelona for 15 or 20 years!!

Ok folks you can fetch me the men in white coats and cart me off!!!

David Cornmell
7 Posted 22/04/2014 at 20:53:42
Kenwright should have fucked him off years ago really, but he served his purposes in that he was a known quantity and virtually guaranteed premier league football year in year out.
But it was clear to many - indeed by the end just about all - that he had stopped improving us, and it seemed apparent that he had stopped believing he could improve us.
If you believe you can or you can't you will.
To be honest I can't even remember a Moyes performance from his final three or four years worthy of the name. I remember the cup final, the Liverpool semi, the Wigan masterclass against us, the drubbing by arsenal.
Maybe the four four? Even then it's coloured by the fact that we were so far out of the game there was no pressure on us.
Every time the pressure was on we seemed to buckle. It became his trademark.
Ben Jones
8 Posted 22/04/2014 at 20:58:22
I do forget exactly what season it is, I think it was the 2007-08 season, or maybe a year after, but that was our peak under Moyes. We had an awesome defence, Lescott and Jagielka at the back, with a fluid Arteta, Osman and Pienaar midfield and the Yak up front. After that, we did stagnate, and Andy you are right, he was clever in bringing that image in the media that we were over achieving, and our targets were always that we were lucky to stay in the top 7 positions,

But we can't deny his success and our turn of fortunes due to him. The majority of his signings were impeccable and he laid a great foundation for Martinez to work his magic.

Still don't think he deserved the jeers he got on Sunday, but fully agree that he was out of depth for Utd. I might put a tenner on him being at Newcastle next season, think that's quite likely to happen.

Andrew Humphrey
9 Posted 22/04/2014 at 21:20:09
As an aside, The Bbc is reporting that he will only get 1 year payoff as they didn't achieve champions league. Just wondered how common that clause might be? AVB doesn't seem to have had it in either of his prem league jobs...maybe a sign that manure never quite had the faith in him that a 6 year contract seemed to indicate?
Mike Gaynes
10 Posted 22/04/2014 at 21:31:22
Rob Halligan (652), you are dreaming, my friend. But no straitjackets or padded walls necessary. We all indulge in these wonderful, impossible fantasies... bedding Halle Berry... breaking par at St. Andrews... a yacht in Monte Carlo... and seeing Roberto stay on for another decade.

No harm in dreaming.

Mike Gaynes
11 Posted 22/04/2014 at 21:36:49
Gary Creaney (537), that's a top corner volley right there. Love the Sistine Chapel quote.
Andy Crooks
12 Posted 22/04/2014 at 21:34:18
I spoke to a few United supporters today and they had no faith in his ability to spend a huge amount of money in the summer. I thought that this was nonsense, believing that anyone with a proper scouting system could build a side with that amount. I believe that the reasons for his dismissal could be found in the dressing room and on the training ground.

I was then reminded of an article, which I had forgotten, that I posted a few years ago in which I argued "if Moyes had millions" he couldn't be trusted with it. Now, if only Martinez had millions.

Rob Halligan
13 Posted 22/04/2014 at 21:41:03
Mike 660. I know mate, we can all dream!!

However who would have thought back in the early eighties, around about 82 or 83 what was around the corner? Howard Kendall was on the verge of the sack, when he brought in, amongst others 2 oldies in Peter Reid and Andy Gray and that corner was turned!!

We then went toe to toe with the shite and might have conquered Europe if it weren't for you know what!!

Things always go in cycles and maybe it's coming round back to our turn, albeit in maybe 3 or 4 years.

Though you're probably right, it's all a dream!!

Colin Glassar
14 Posted 22/04/2014 at 21:46:42
Andy, if he had millions to spend at OT he’d probably buy the likes of cattermole, Nolan, Curtis Davies, and a few championship players and then say, "how clever am I? I’ve spent 20m on some great players and saved the club 130m into the bargain".
Simon Harris
15 Posted 22/04/2014 at 21:59:08
The one thing you can't argue about Moyes' tenure at Everton was his signings. Andy you mentioned 2 of a list of many bargains with only a few duffers that compared to many managers with a similar or bigger budget was outstanding.

Martinez is reaping the rewards of a largely Moyes squad and has undoubtedly enhanced it.

I don't think 10 months and 2 transfer windows adequate time to judge him on, but it's worked out well for us, and that's all that matters.

Paul Gladwell
16 Posted 22/04/2014 at 22:00:59
The summer of last year in a bar in Benidorm I had five of my mates slaughtering me over Moyes, I called his send off small time, we would never have done that in the 80s, "we will fall big time now " they said, some of whom stopped going under his leadership too, despite their love of him "Martinez cannot defend", we will never challenge without money" etc.

Now we have the second best defence record in the league, a silly slip up last week has stopped up challenging for second maybe and we have our highest points tally since the prem league began.

I thought Moyes did a very good job, but my argument was he should and would have done better if he showed some balls, it's better getting tonked now and again with the fact you know under Martinez we will win one of the biggies too, this attitude to eleven years of playing safe to lose lightly is a no brainer, but this was a fella who last Sunday could not see that we let them control certain parts of that game on purpose! he gets paid millions and he could not fathom that out!

He fooled many blues with his glass ceiling shouts, he fooled outsiders too and now the proof is out there and everyone has seen negative Dave's ways and now we are all dreaming again of what maybe.

It was not so long ago many blues questioned that we would never see us win the league ever again and yet all of a sudden we are better than Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea (my opinion anyway) and the title looks like going to a squad that has finished behind us in the last two seasons, yes we know these teams will strengthen in the summer but this fella we have has got something and maybe we can start dreaming again instead of excepting mediocracy as the norm.

Gerard McGregor
17 Posted 22/04/2014 at 22:17:06
Andy, I think you have got it exactly right about Moyes. Although I admired him for much of what he did for Everton, his mantra of lack of funds and having to make the most of what we've got jarred with me from the beginning. What message was that giving to his squad of players? For the fans, the period of regularly beating man city was as good as it was going to get. In contrast, Martinez has made players and fans believe that much more is possible, while for Moyes now, that was probably it in terms of glory.
Richard Pike
18 Posted 22/04/2014 at 23:09:29
Ben Jones (654), I think you've called it right. That team of 2008 that lost (unluckily) in a shoot-out to Fiorentina was the zenith of the Moyes era. If we want to look for a turning point, maybe it's the Arteta injury; he made that team tick and neither he nor it were ever quite the same again.

I had mixed feelings when Moyes left Everton. As someone who had always been pro-DM I had long held the concern that he might be tempted away, and then where would we be left? He was undeniably the best thing to happen to the club in a long time and would be a very tough act to follow. And yet, after 11 years, just as you finally realise a long-term relationship has lost its spark, it started to become apparent as the contract issue dragged that it might have to be time to embrace change. Then the SAF bomb dropped, Moyes was "the obvious choice" to replace him, and things came to a head. Change was happening whether I liked it or not.

How the scales have fallen from my eyes this season.

He was thrown the ultimate hospital pass by a man supposed to be his mate, but that doesn't disguise the facts that he's been a) completely and utterly found out, and b) completely and utterly shown up by his own successor.

It's easy to say with 20/20 hindsight from a point off 4th place after 35 games that he should have gone three or four years ago, but who would have replaced him? Martinez came along at just the right time as it turned out, but he wouldn't have been ready then. We'll never know for sure, but just maybe clinging on to Moyes for what seems like too long might be the very reason we're now where we are.

Denis Richardson
19 Posted 22/04/2014 at 23:23:12
On the one hand I'm happy to see him sacked as he's finally been found out, on the other side I'm not really one to wish someone else misfortune so won't gloat for long.

Personally my last straw with Moyes was Dec 2010 playing away to second from bottom West Ham. We started the game without a single recognised striker on the pitch but had yak, beckford, saha and baxter starting on the bench. That just seemed to sum the guy up for me, needless to say we didn't win. HIs high point was probably the cup final in 2009, after that it was all down hill. Looking back on his time I can remember far more negatives than positives. Maybe that's because the latter years were worst or I'm just predjudiced, don't know. (I still remember the atmosphere at the Nuremberg game when big Vic ran riot - one of my few highpoints.)

God there were so many lows towards the end, the football was so boring, negative and the club just seemed to be going nowhere with little hope of anything changing for the better until either BK or Moyes (or both) were gone. The likes of Neville and Heitinga in CM and players like the Straq up front!

I still find it hard to believe Moyes was our manager for 11 years! The last 2-3 years were certainly a waste of time for both him and us (although he was picking up 4m a year!) and it was obvious that he was simply running down his contract, waiting for a 'better' offer to jump ship. His interview in 2012 when the Spurs job was open was just embarassing. And then all the bullshit about wanting to manage in Germany.

At the end of the day, thanks for the period 2002-2009, no thanks for the period 2009-2013. It will really be interesting to see where he ends up next - I doubt it will be in the Premiership though.

Phil Bellis
20 Posted 23/04/2014 at 00:04:09
He wouldn't have lasted beyond mid-second season under Sir John... 11 years! A generation of stability or stagnation?

It's an age thing. What a waste of years we can never get back trapped in a bad marriage.

David Cornmell
21 Posted 23/04/2014 at 00:01:47
Moyes will be back. Loves it too much to stay away for too long.
I see a sabbatical, and then when a job comes up next season for a team in the shit, he'll be there. Lambert is struggling big time at Villa, and if he gets off to an ordinary start there I can see Moyes coming in for a stabilising job on a pittance. It's his bete noire after all.

The next incarnation will be interesting. I see further snipes at Martinez and EFC - Moyes truly believes that a hero's exit and tens of millions isn't enough recognition for what he did for us (a cynic might say TO us). Moyes is truly hurt that the players haven't all said how much they've missed him, that Bobby hasn't come out and admitted that he's done fuck all except play online poker since he got here as the place was running so smooth, that Kenwright hasn't come out and said that although Bobby has done alright getting us to fifth Davey would have had us fifteen points clear with a goal difference of plus one thousand.
David Moyes is as hurt by our continued rise as his own spectacular fall. I believe he'll take Roundy and whoever else with him in his next gig. It's not they who failed at United, or himself. It was the players who refused to buy in, who thought they knew better than the man employed to tell them what to do. If the Moyes dressing room was a tough place prior, the next incarnation of it will be a lot lot tougher. The next fancy pants who thinks he knows better than the boss, and says so, or threatens to leave, or leaks to the press will be running up hills with the stiffs til his legs fall off.

The most interesting part of the next incarnation will be the media relationship. He had a fucken good run with us, it has to be said. Recently, it's been the absolute opposite. There'll be no Martinez style positivity and inclusiveness of the media next time. More the curt one word shit, and Arsene Wenger style "you can ask what you like but I'm not fucken answering".

Oh yeah, Moyes will be back. And with the right club, and for a short time he'll work his mid table magic, but then he'll lose a few games, the press will turn nasty (after all he'll have started it) and the fans will chase him out the door.

It's hard to believe or even remember, but the Moyes that took over Smiths Everton was the Martinez of his day. Younger ToffeeWebbers will think I'm fucken mental, but he was young, exciting (!), on the way up, a players manager. He'd done great things with Preston, and was ready for the next level. The four three win at Pride Park was the performance that convinced me would stay up twelve years ago, and convinced me we had the right man. It was a cracker of a game, open, exciting, quality goals - ironically, the complete reverse of what a typical Moyes Everton performance proved to be. It was Martinez like.

Moyes will be back. But he'll never be the same.

David Hallwood
22 Posted 23/04/2014 at 00:07:55
Even though he didn't cover himself in glory in his stint at OT there's little doubt that they have huge problems and the squad will need an overhaul; whether his successor gets the time to do it is another thing. I always look at teams and ask which of their players would significantly improve our team; now 10-15 years ago you could have the entire squad now who would you improve the team? De Gea, Rooney, Van Persie and after that you start to scratch your head.

I think that with improvements of teams around them they could have a few years in the wilderness, and that will mean a managerial merry-go-round which, historically at least, has a negative impact on a club.

But as for Moyes, I was always his staunchest supporter and had fierce arguments with friends that had stopped going to the games, mainly uppermost in my mind was the dross I watched in the 90's and always stated that it was only money that stopped him & us from being successful.

What finally alienated me was the knife to a gunfight BS, FFS if a non-league club gets drawn against a premiership club in the FA cup, the manager (usually) gives it the 11 v 11, its on the day-NOT we're fucked cos we've just drawn Arsenal. It was the relentless negativity that I found hard to stomach.

Moyes now looks like an old manager, set in his ways that contrasts sharply against the bright young things like Martinez (and OK Rodgers) with their fluid formations and positive attacking ethos. As Andy pointed out, he brought some great players to GP, but his time is thankfully over, onwards and upwards.

Karl Masters
23 Posted 23/04/2014 at 00:46:45
He deserves credit for turning us from a permanent bottom seven team into a permanent top seven team.

He brought stability and some fantastic purchases to a Club run by a pathetic Board who invested nothing. Without him, Roberto would not have had the platform to build on as he readily admits.

Ultimately, he was too cautious and lacked the know-how in key matches. I'd give him 8/10 for his years at Goodison. We DID have some great memories and shouldn't forget that in some sort of revisionist re-write of 2002-2013.

I was as outraged by his behaviour after he left as anybody, but he's been found out now, and yes those players at Old Trafford should take a lot of blame too, but we came out of it all the better with Roberto, so I'm not gloating anymore. It's time to move on. Let's see if we can finish above them again next season and many more after! Let's like forward, not back.

David Chait
24 Posted 23/04/2014 at 06:32:30
David #736. I was saying very much the same to a colleague that the Moyes at the end of his stint was not the Moyes that joined is. I remember him being ground breaking in introducing new technology and being known to be more expansive in his days from Preston.

But somewhere along the line he lost belief and became stuck the conservative approach. He showed glimpses every season of a beautiful brand of football but then came a big game and we reveed to type. He didn't have the belief to push through and evolve completely.

I actually thought he would do very well at Utd as I thought he would trust the players to play this exciting brand of football every week, but even with them he didn't.

Football has moved on and mentally Moyes needs to do the same or be left behind with his reputation sinking further with every new job.

Christopher Timmins
25 Posted 23/04/2014 at 07:06:16
David Moyes stayed far too long at Goodison Park and maybe if he left three or four years ago he might have taken the interim step that he needed to take before managing a Club as big as Manchester United. Still he served Kenwright well in that he was not too demanding when it came to looking for transfer funds..He replaced Walter Smith after we took a hiding away to Boro in the Cup. We were in real danger of going down and had an aging squad. He kept us up and for most of the following seasons we were in the top 7.

It's some twenty years since the club last won something, far too long given its great history and tradition.For most of that period Kenwright has sat at the top table. The current boss will not stay for 11 years if he is handed the same financial backing as Moyes. The next 3 games are important but the summer transfer activity will determine where this club is going.

Vinny Garstrokes
26 Posted 23/04/2014 at 07:30:51
Chris #790 - I agree that he should have gone 3 or 4 years ago coinciding with his appointment of Steve Round after Alan Irvine left for Preston. He may be back, but if he insists on keeping Steve Round as part of his backroom staff, he won't be no phoenix!!
Kieran Fitzgerald
27 Posted 23/04/2014 at 08:21:31
Martinez has had a cracking first season. There are two things that I will be looking at with interest over the next twelve months. Firstly, like Moyes the lack of finances means he has one hand tied behind his back. How will he manage to continue with such amazing progress on what could be a very limited budget. Secondly, second season syndrome is going to kick in next August. How will fans react to any mistake given how expectations have been raised this summer.

I genuinely hope Martinez gets a decent pot of cash this summer. I genuinely hope we don't have to sell any of our top players, either by choice or from other clubs taking the piss. Martinez did inherit a very good squad from Moyes. People are right to say that Moyes left him a very solid platform to build on and I thank him for that that.

Ciarán McGlone
28 Posted 23/04/2014 at 10:20:52
I'm gutted!

He should've been given another year to show how truly incompetent he was. The more knowledgeable on this site figured out he was naked many years ago.

However having said that he was treated disgracefully by United - almost as abysmally as the disdain he treated us with when he left...

Only fitting that we should be the nail in his coffin.

Brian Waring
29 Posted 23/04/2014 at 10:17:59
Andy, my other half's brother is a Manc season ticket holder, talking to him since Moyes first took over, he said the problems first started after a few months. A lot of the problems came from the training sessions, Moyes had them mostly working on their fitness and used to run them into the ground, the funny thing is, he said he never noticed it at first, but the players always looked fucked in games.

Giggs was supposedly well pissed off because any input he tried to put in was virtually slapped down by Moyes. The final straw was him calling Moyes a clown because in the training sessions, instead of the strikers working on their side of the game, Moyes had them spending 2 hours every session working on the defensive side of the game.

Ben Dyke
30 Posted 23/04/2014 at 10:34:33
In amongst all this I am left thinking what a bunch of so and sos the man utd players sound like. Moyes didn't have a chance. Looking forward to a long demise for utd.
Karl Masters
31 Posted 23/04/2014 at 10:42:23
Yes, Ben. Those prima donnas at Man Utd like Ferdinand, Giggs, Young, Welbeck, etc have spent too long thinking all they had to do was turn up, especially at Old Trafford, and the 3 points were theirs.

Ironically, people like Moyes made it easy for them by brainwashing themselves as opposition managers into thinking they were beaten before they arrived. But now, the cat is well and truly out of the bag. Seven premier league teams have won at Old Trafford this season including the likes of Newcastle, Swansea and WBA. Even Stoke nearly won there as well.

Im hoping they are going to spend a few years at least scratching around for trophies. Tossers.

Rick Tarleton
32 Posted 23/04/2014 at 11:17:17
If I wanted a manager to set up a team to get out of the relegation zone, I'd want Moyes or Pulis. If I wanted a team to win something or play with some elan, I wouldn't go near them. That's what Moyes was a good "What we have , we hold" manager. But he hated the idea of going for it and attacking. Losing 1-0 to Sir Alex's United was his idea of a tactical triumph.
Colin Glassar
33 Posted 23/04/2014 at 11:25:47
I think he will end up at Newcastle or WHU. Their fans must be very worried right now.
Eddie Dunn
34 Posted 23/04/2014 at 11:03:05
It was fitting that Moyes should manage his last game for the Mancs at Goodison, the venue for that touching send-off, a year ago.

He deceived us all, stalling on his contract, and I hoped, at the time that it was his way of putting pressure on the Board to release funds for the team. It was a sham as we all suspect that Fergie sounded him out long before. He added insult to injury in his derisory offer for Baines.

However, he did pull our club out of the mire and kept us in the top half of the table. He managed to get his teams to dig in and scrap, and he was an intense leader who tried his best for us. He also unearthed some gems, like Jags, Seamus, and Cahill and instilled a great work ethic on the pitch.

In the modern Premier League era, a manager can be sacked after a few poor results, so I cant blame him for trying his luck on the biggest stage in England. His failure is ugly, in that the big time Charlies at Man Utd undermined him, in their conceited, spoilt way.

Most managers dont have the authority of SAF, who had built a dynasty over a quarter of a century, and can be undone by players and agents who can undermine their plans. Perhaps Moyes is too old-fashioned in his authoritarian approach, and his dour demeanor and rigid coaching methods.... Such a contrast to Martinez, who is, I imagine, good to work with, and knows how to create a positive working environment.

Im glad how it has all worked out for Everton, but I find Moyess demise a sad reflection of the modern business of football.

Mark Pierpoint
35 Posted 23/04/2014 at 11:20:54
Karl Masters sums up the issue perfectly for me.

We DID have some great memories and shouldn't forget that in some sort of revisionist re-write of 2002-2013.

It is easy to forget how truly appalling and frankly tired this team was in 2001. I remember when I was at school being the only Everton fan having to defend a team with such luminaries as Abel Xavier, Paul Gascoigne and a finished David Ginola. Moyes gave Everton some brilliant times. The European runs, repect in the league, and in players like Cahill, Arteta and Pienaar, players who had the tenacity of previous Everton teams, but also the creativity that made other teams envious Arteta, in his prime, was majestic.

Some relationships go sour though and this was one of them. I wonder whether Moyes has been left behind. When he come to us he was every bit the modern manager. Tried new things and had that youthful swagger. Rogers, Martinez, Guardiola, Simeone are the mangers of now and Moyes probably has not kept up and has taken his eye off the ball. This is evident in his sidelining of true coaches such as Mulensteen. and I am sure that this resonated with the United players.

All in all I feel sorry for him in part. It was his big opportunity and he will not get another top job now at his age. If it had been Martinez who had failed for example, he would have time on his side, but not Moyes. Someone who will get a 5m payoff though who will never have to work again, having been a premier league manager of a genuniely GREAT CLUB a point often ignored by a sky 4 obsessed media, doesn't bring a tear to my eye.

I don't take any particular delight in Moyes failing though. It worries me that some fans seem to think Roberto Martinez's first season is evidence that we are heading into a period of unadulterated success. The second season is always harder, and if we have a poor transfer window I feel we will struggle to hit the heights we are currently at. There will come times where we will have to support the manager and the team when we are doing not so well I am sure.

Nevertheless it is clear that EFC have come out far stronger in the last 12 months. The hope is surely that Martinez gets the opportunity to finish the job and allow us to reach our potential.

Steven Telford
36 Posted 23/04/2014 at 11:53:11
I still cant get over the fact that his last game in charge was against is.
Poetic justice, uncanny really.....................
Newcastle is an obvious destination for him.
Ciarán McGlone
37 Posted 23/04/2014 at 11:52:06
What are those 'great' memories you have Mark?

I have memories...they are not by any stretch of the imagination 'great'.

I do however have a 'great' memory from 1995...you know, during that dark period of pestilence that everyone likes to use as the yardstick for Moyes' momentus achievements at Everton!

Robert Elliott
38 Posted 23/04/2014 at 11:57:02
I agree with those who say Moyes did a good job at Everton for the most part. We were on our knees when he took over, and he did drag us forward almost immediately. I remember his first season in charge being one of the best I'd seen (unfortunately for me, I can't really remember the highs of the mid to late 80's- too young!). What I remember of him then though was that he was a fairly attacking manager. I remember him picking Campbell, Radzinski and Rooney in his starting XI for our first home game of the season that year against Spurs. I remember us really having a go at a great Arsenal team a few weeks later at Goodison, and matching them stride for stride until Rooney settled it with "that goal"

But somewhere along the line, he seemed to change. He became essentially a defensive manager. Maybe it was the success he had with the 4-1-4-1 formation in the year we qualified for the CL, maybe it was signing someone like Cahill who was ideally suited to the role behind the striker, or maybe it was because he recognised that if he could just keep Everton competitive in the top half of the table it would keep Kenwright more than happy, and the media would tell us all what a great achievement it was for plucky little hard-up Everton. Do that for long enough and a "bigger club" would surely come in for him eventually.

The bottom line though is that I've enjoyed seeing him struggle and seeing it end the way it has. His disrespect of Everton, which began with the "better things" comment in the tunnel when interviewed immediately after the West Ham game last year, and then led to the Baines-Fellaini transfer fiasco, removed any positive feelings I had for him.

Phil Bellis
39 Posted 23/04/2014 at 12:08:09
Mark Pierpoint (850)
You are very easily pleased but I accept that you have no knowledge or experience of successful Everton teams

I have seen more joy, excitement and even wonder on the faces of young supporters leaving the ground this season than in the last 5 years
Says it all, for me anyway

Patrick Murphy
40 Posted 23/04/2014 at 12:13:29
1977 Semi-Final and the Echo has put up clips of the goals on there 24/7 section. In an interview Emlyn Hughes admitted that Clive Thomas made a mistake apparently he spoke while on holiday with Clive Thomas. Been going on a long time this; Liverpool Captain's fraternising with the officials. I've never seen that Emlyn Hughes bit before.

Mark Pierpoint
41 Posted 23/04/2014 at 12:07:39
The word 'Great' was quoted from Karl, Ciaran. Whether or not you think that the high points of Moyes' reign were 'great' or simply 'good' (i can't imagine that any Everton fan can be ambivalent towards the progress we made) is up to you. I agree that he never reached the heights of 1995, and for that reason he may not be an Everton great in future years. What I will say was the Everton of 2005-7 was probably the best Everton team I have seen, talent wise (problably until now, the difference being back then we had Yakubu whereas we still have the long term uncertainty up front) It is a great shame that this period did not correspond with Everton truly playing their way to silverware. Moyes has to take some of the blame for this, The board have to take some for rhis and a proportion is down to external factors such as the emergance of the petro money clubs.
Mark Pierpoint
42 Posted 23/04/2014 at 12:07:39
The word 'Great' was quoted from Karl, Ciaran. Whether or not you think that the high points of Moyes' reign were 'great' or simply 'good' (i can't imagine that any Everton fan can be ambivalent towards the progress we made) is up to you. I agree that he never reached the heights of 1995, and for that reason he may not be an Everton great in future years. What I will say was the Everton of 2005-7 was probably the best Everton team I have seen, talent wise (problably until now, the difference being back then we had Yakubu whereas we still have the long term uncertainty up front) It is a great shame that this period did not correspond with Everton truly playing their way to silverware. Moyes has to take some of the blame for this, The board have to take some for rhis and a proportion is down to external factors such as the emergance of the petro money clubs.
Neil McKinney
43 Posted 23/04/2014 at 11:36:05
Karl Masters (746) just about sums up my feelings on the matter. It disappoints me to see Moyes Everton tenure rewritten by some with little or no credit given for the good work he did, certainly in the early part by turning this club around from the relegation battle mainstay it had become.

Somebody said on the Moyes Sacked thread that Martinez wouldve done a great job regardless of when hed come to the club (in response to a point about the foundations that had been left by Moyes), but I think that does a disservice to what Moyes achieved. Working under similar constraints at Wigan, Martinez managed 16th, 16th, 15th then 18th in the PL, so inspite of the plaudits and the entertaining football he was unable to deliver the stability that Moyes did. However, add Martnezs positive attitude, ambition, more expansive football and tactical nous to the solid foundations that Moyes had built and we are enjoying one of the best seasons for a long time.

That said, there is no doubt that the latter years of Moyess time here were stale, uninspiring and frustrating. I feared less for what wed lose if he went than what would replace him and thankfully Martinez has allayed those fears (at least so far). I wasnt sorry to see the negativity go and the constant talking down of this great club, what seemed to be a total lack of tactics and predictable substitutions. Battling to the odd backs to the wall victory against the odds just didnt cut it any more and the masses grew restless.

When he eventually left the club I felt let down by his subsequent actions, comments and attempts to unsettle key players with derisory offers. My respect for him has diminished but I still recognise what he did to put this club back on a competitive footing. I dont pity him, as many have said he is a multi-millionaire, but it is sad that his Everton legacy has been left in tatters. Some have said he shouldve known that he didnt have what it takes to manage a club like Man Utd, but when offered such a chance I dont really see how he could turn it down. I believe he honestly thought that with money he could achieve things there and he went to test that belief in his ability. Ultimately he came up short, but I dont take any great pleasure in seeing him fail, my focus remains EFC and our progress.

In hindsight many of us could see the signs back when he was at Everton but I dont subscribe to the I told you so line. I did feel that Moyes had reached his limits with us but I’ll admit I feared what would follow his departure. I had reservations about Martinez too but he has far exceeded most people’s expectations and I’m loving it so far. I’m not interested in being right only in Everton doing well. I will always appreciate what Moyes did for the club whilst accepting that he perhaps stayed too long. I guess his earlier efforts earned him that additional time but it ultimately lost him a lot of respect and support from the fan base who became frustrated at his shortcomings and negativity.

As Karl said, time to move forward and forget this whole saga. COYB

Ciarán McGlone
44 Posted 23/04/2014 at 12:19:17
i can't imagine that any Everton fan can be ambivalent towards the progress we made


That's a different argument Mark.

Patrick Murphy
45 Posted 23/04/2014 at 12:17:17
On the subject of David Moyes - I think Bill Kenwright has to share some responsibility for his demise as when at Everton Moyes' thought he was SAF junior - he was probably given too much responsibility for the financial side of the club and didn't always base his decisions purely on the football side of things - a bad habit for a man whose job it is to motivate and coach footballers.

Let's hope that Bill Kenwright has also learnt his lesson and allows Roberto to do what he does best - coaching the players and picking a team that is best able to beat our opponents.

Tony Draper
46 Posted 23/04/2014 at 10:54:16
There is ONE matter for which I am DEEPLY grateful to the grossly overpaid knife-fighter and it has a win-win bonus

He left
Roberto Martinez replaced him
Talk about "Buy One Get One Free" !

When Roberto arrived I was hopeful AND not a shade fearful too
IF I had a time machine and could pop back to "have a word with meself" as I took my seat for the first game of the season......there is NO WAY that me then would EVER believe just how much better it was all going to be in just a single season

But being an Evertonian still in "Solo lo Mejor" postive attitude therapy following many years of "Just Be Bloody Grateful"
I look forward to next season and my painful old habits MAKE me think "wont be like this again, can't be, no way !"

But there's a brand new shoot of HOPE growing in me, and I intend to allow it to grow
Cos I'm SICK TO FUCKIN DEATH OF BEING GRATEFUL JUST for living in eyore's gloom !

Roberto.......Your way !
And EVEN if we skirt with relegation next season (and we WILL NOT) I'm loving the journey !

Long may it continue !

Bloody sure Sir John would approve !

Robbie Muldoon
47 Posted 23/04/2014 at 12:31:03
The scariest thought of all is, if Alex Ferguson hadn't wrapped a bow on Moyes' bonce and delivered him to Old Trafford, how many more years would he have been stinking Goodison out for? There is an unsigned contract running to 2017 in the bin somewhere, thank fuck for that!
Ciarán McGlone
48 Posted 23/04/2014 at 12:38:53
"There is an unsigned contract running to 2017 in the bin somewhere, thank fuck for that! "


Enough to send a shiver down ones spine!

Gavin Ramejkis
49 Posted 23/04/2014 at 12:42:25
Just to put my perspective in for those still clinging to the Mother Theresa like status some have Moyes in. Yes he did buy some decent players from the lower leagues and some who had lost their way abroad, he also bought utter wank, Simon Davies, Bilyetdinov and Per Kroldrup plus all of those youth players never to even appear and those part timers just draining a wage - Cody Arnoux anyone? For years we had to listen to the dirge drone of "man of honour" bollocks, he was always in it for number one and number one only, its his way, in those 11 years and counting he was made a multi millionaire and achieved the square root of fuck all besides token pat on the back LMAs from his buddy Whiskey Nose, he even had the gall to draw 2 wages whilst still here and his utter bullshit clinging on to the myth of only knowing about the Man U job two weeks before he got it despite Ferguson writing it in his own book plus his half arsed "couldn't take training" bullshit carefully leaving out because he was at Carrington training with Man Utd.

I'll savour his demise, his shit team selections, his negativity, his werewolf allergy to silver, his shithouse response to big games all on Man Utds clock, the world can see in glorious technicolour the limitations of the misery now.

Matt Traynor
50 Posted 23/04/2014 at 13:06:56
So are we to take it you're not a fan Gavin? ;)
Kevin Tully
51 Posted 23/04/2014 at 13:05:26
For a team thats been in the top division since 1954 we sure have a lot thank David Moyes for. The way he is revered you would have thought he brought us up from the old 4th division.

Even Mr. Prentice of the Echo has penned a few home truths ;

They have fallen for an exotic new coach who is promising them the earth and making a half-decent job at delivering, too.

Roberto Martinez is making David Moyes look bad, on and off the pitch.

Moyes was good for Everton, but Everton were also very good for him. He was given stability, support, whatever financial backing could be made available and the invaluable gift of being able to set his own expectation levels.

"Maybe sixth or seventh is the highest Everton can hope for," said Moyes.

It was a clever bit of expectation management suggesting it was impossible for a club like Everton to compete with the financial giants of the Premier League, while bigging up his own achievements in regularly finishing on the periphery of the top four.

But was Moyes exposing Everton’s limitations as a club? Or was he pointing to his own limitations as a manager?

The question is pertinent because Roberto Martinez has proved that "sixth or seventh" is not the highest Everton can hope for...

Dan Nulty
52 Posted 23/04/2014 at 13:49:37
I was a massive supporter of Moyes and what he did for and with us. I was genuinely concerned when he left and Martinez took over but have to say I have been proved so wrong. As Denise above has said, I feel like the years from 2009 were a bit of a waste in that you look at Jags, Baines, Osman, Distin, Pienaar, Arteta. How good could we have been with these players four years ago when their legs were younger? Still, it is all if's buts and maybes. I was happy for him to continue for fear of the worst but maybe that was because he brainwashed me into thinking we were punching above our weight.

What I don't agree with though is people saying he sacked United's backroom staff and brought in his own. He asked Meulensteen to stay, he declined, maybe he didn't ask hard enough some might say but we'll never know, he still offered him the job. It was only Phelan and the goalkeeping coach he got rid of. He brought in Giggs and Phil Neville, United through and through, so he did recognise the need for people who knew United inside out supporting him.

For me, Ferguson appointed him for a reason, however, Ferguson knew he was leaving an ageing and weak squad, he brought 38 year old Scholes out of retirement to help him win the title didn't he!?

The story last week was that United had approached Van Gaal so guess that appears to be true.

Andrew Clare
53 Posted 23/04/2014 at 14:00:40
Robbie # 874 Very, very frightening. It's what makes me worry so much about the people who run our club. They really haven't got a clue! We were so lucky to get Roberto. Talk about good timing!
Steve Barr
54 Posted 23/04/2014 at 14:28:40
Some intersting points/observations in this thread. Particularly around the caution expressed by many during Moyes' tenure that any replacement for him would undoubtedly be unable to match his feats, or more negatively, be able to keep us in the Premier League. One thing Moyes did do very well was manage Evertonians expectations...down in that 6th or 7th was as good as we could hope for!

Moyes left and we did replace him and so far we have improved in many areas such a the style of play, league positon and general good feeling and optimism to name a few! All this on the same budget.

However, already some are quite rightly raising concerns about the sustainability of Martinez's work and transformation going into next season and beyond. I have no doubt that Martinez has the ability to continue to deliver good football and will probably be able to manage the development of the team with a limited budget, like Moyes was able to do.

But without considerable financial investment we will struggle to break through and win the league. Maybe the odd cup win.

So we moved on from Moyes and got Martinez. We should now put behind us the doubts that any financial investment /takeover of the club will only result in disaster, like say the Portsmouth, Blackburn and Leeds United experiences for example.

No, we should be able to secure a credible investor through proped due diligence, for example, like our neigbours Liverpool.

Already their owners, Fenway Sports Group, are fully committed to helping Rogers build on this season's success, which unfortunately looks like culminating in the Prenmier League title, and are planning the sustainment of this success going forward.

I hate reading about the future development of Anfield while we continue to put up with speculation about a new ground, new investment etc.

We were once that rich team, the envy of many others back in the John Moores era. We need to get back to where we belong. We have the Manager to do it. We now need the board to step up and deliver the appropriate finances, or get out and allow someone else in who can.


John Daley
55 Posted 23/04/2014 at 15:27:42
"...somewhere along the line, he seemed to change. He became essentially a defensive manager"

Steve Round takes up the story:

"Dave and I would spend hours every day fine-tuning our formation and tactics. Well, an hour, because we discussed it during our dinner break. Actually it was probably about 35 mins tops when you factor in food chewing, tea slurping and awkward silences.

Anyway, we'd usually end up with a line of 4 salt shakers behind a row of 5 vinegar bottles with the brown sauce up top. Sometimes though, Davy would get this little twinkle in his eye, and you'd think 'aye, aye, the gaffers on to something here'. Then he'd slowwwwwly drag that brown sauce bottle right back, slap bang in the middle of the 5 vinegar bottles.

Honestly, when that first happened, the atmosphere was electric. The hairs on the back of my neck just stood straight up as I realised I was dining in the presence of a true tactical Titan.

When you look back at it now, it's amazing to think we revolutionised the coaching handbook by fucking about with condiments over curry and chips.

What I didn't know then, but do know now, is that the world wasn't yet ready for two young bucks to just blow into town and tear up preconceived notions about playing to win. We were Mavericks. Actually, I was Maverick and Moysie was Goose. Goose tragically crashed and burned... like Davie did at United.

I still well up when I think of him strolling off into the sunset, rebelliously resplendent in his sky blue wrangler shirt (top button: open), grey Grattans jumper (neck: v), stone stay-creased action slacks (fly: zip) and big 'I've just booted Casper the Ghosts arse right in' Reebok 'Pump' (tongue: inflated). It was pure defiance via dress code. Dignified but still screaming (in a Scottish accent because Goose...i mean Davey....was Scottish) 'If ahm goern doon, ahm goern doon swedgin' ya doss c**t!'. To see a young buck like Moysie take such blows but still have the balls to give some back like that.....just summed the man up for me.

Then, just like that, it was as if he had ceased to exist. They all just washed their hands of him. It must have been so hard. One minute you're the new young buck in town with stacks of shortbread biscuits piled up by your coffee cup like a Scottish Scarface minus the serious drug problem. Next minute you're persona non grata. Presbyterian Public Enemy Number One. I mean....the man had Mick Hucknall on speed dial for gods sake! How do you ever go back to a normal life after that?"

Neil McKinney
56 Posted 23/04/2014 at 15:15:57
"For a team that's been in the top division since 1954 we sure have a lot thank David Moyes for. The way he is revered you would have thought he brought us up from the old 4th division."

Well Kevin, this is the type of thing that I find a little disappointing. I understand that there are some that may revere Moyes but often anyone who chooses to recognise what he did do right is labelled as this extreme (Moyes can do no wrong or an apologist) when in fact they are not necessarily ignorant of his failings. It doesn't have to be polar. Surely, despite his obvious inability to push on, the very least he did was enable you to continue to make a statement about how we've been in the top division since 1954. With the last 4 years of Smith's reign bringing finishes of 14th, 13th, 16th and 15th, it was looking somewhat precarious before Moyes came in.

Anyway, Prentice makes some valid points and, as I've mentioned before, I had become frustrated and disillusioned with Moyes' negativity, tactical naivety, expectation management and safety first attitude. I just don't see why these failings need to completely erase what he did manage to do at our club. It's horses for courses and it looks like David took us to a point where he could take us no further. Turns out is wasn't (just) lack of money, he was as much the problem as the lack of funds.

Eugene Ruane
57 Posted 23/04/2014 at 15:39:37
John Daley (920) - Superb!
Will Firstbrook
58 Posted 23/04/2014 at 15:22:00
I, like others who've posted here and elsewhere, appreciate what Moyes did for the Club. However, he had taken it as far as he could and a change was long overdue. Not hard feelings.

What transpired at Man Utd was not a shock to most (or it shouldn't have been) for many reasons. Notwithstanding the numerous off-field issues they face over there, you could look solely at Moyes and his weaknesses to know that this was not going to work. He has his strengths and they've been well documented above, however, his "defence-first" approach and limited tactical nous was always going to grossly overshadow any positives he may have brought to the organization.

While it's possible the executive management may have been willing to wait it out a bit longer, especially if the Dark Lord was still offering some support for Davie (and I have no evidence to believe that was the case), I think Andy has it spot on - he had lost all confidence from the the players, if he ever had it begin with and on the evidence of what we've seen from them this year, had no interest in playing for him. There is only one way that is going to turn out.

I hold no ill-will towards Moyes. He is not a crappy manager and I am sure he will find employment elsewhere (just not here). However, he is going to have to change his methods, mentality and approach drastically if he ever wants another chance at the elite end of any league. I am not sure he is capable of doing that. First positive step forward for him would be to severe his relationship with that ring-binder toting lump Round!!

Chapter closed and time for us to move on.

Kevin Tully
59 Posted 23/04/2014 at 15:47:40
Neil, my view is a very simple one - Everton Football Club made Moyes. This club gave him time, money, no discernible targets to meet, no pressure and unwavering support through thick and thin. They also made him one the highest paid managers in the world. He did the job he was paid to do, while long suffering fans were just happy to watch us survive (with a top ten P.L. wage budget throughout his tenure)

Leave Pardew at Newcastle, or Allardyce at West Ham to do as they please and they will no doubt achieve similar results.

I could understand the devotion if he had achieved regular European football in the C.L. or a won a few Cups. I could easily live with the praise heaped upon him if we had played scintillating football along the way.

Lauded for keeping us competitive? Just another Gordon Lee or Billy Bingham. I am not being mean spirited, I just don't get it.

Eddie McBride
60 Posted 23/04/2014 at 16:05:08
Am I reading a lot of these comments correctly , that Moyes left us with a very good squad. While Sir Whiskey nose left him with a monumental rebuilding job.
They were Champions by 11 points 28 better than us I think. Just what sort of proof do some of you need to see he was and is a big useless massively overpaid ginger twat???
Brian Denton
61 Posted 23/04/2014 at 18:08:17
Nuremberg was a great night out........
Darren Hind
62 Posted 23/04/2014 at 20:14:09
John # 920

You' got a miserable old twat pissing himself here

Tony McNulty
63 Posted 23/04/2014 at 20:34:34
Nice one John.

And we now know that brown is the secret sauce.

Apparently Fellaini always chose Daddy's, I hear

Paul Gladwell
64 Posted 23/04/2014 at 21:26:36
Kevin, some good words although he was no Lee or Bingham as they nearly won us the league, but you are right I get sick of hearing how we struggled to stay up for years before Moyes arrived, yes he pulled us out of a slumber, but both Royle and Smith had us top six if I'm right in the so called relegation years.
Neil McKinney
65 Posted 24/04/2014 at 08:12:16
PAaul - Smith got us in the top 6? Let's not rewrite our history now.

Whilst 17th and 11th were the only finishws outside the top 8 during Moyes reign, the 6th that Royle achieved was the only top 10 finish in the previous 11 years.

Look, I don't want to get in to defending Moyes, I'm glad he's gone and much of the criticism he has received is justified. However, I don't ghink it's right to make stuff up or misremember stuff in order to wipe anything he did achieve from our history.

"Yes he pulled us out of a slumber" - That's all I'm trying to recognise. I'll admit that ultimately the rest didn't amount to much and we definitely appear to be growing now he's gone. Long may it continue.


Lee Mandaracas
66 Posted 25/04/2014 at 10:11:25
I couldn't argue with a single word of the OP Andy. I think the main thing that would have shocked Moyes is that he has never worked at a 'hated' club before. He's always worked at plucky clubs that most impartials quite like. As such, he also was quite liked, especially given his respective successes.

Going somewhere that was hated and setting himself up for the level of abuse & mockery must have been absolutely mind blowing and it never once eased. Sadly, I haven't seen anything from him over the last few months to suggest any humility is returning. Without that he will always remain the subject of scorn.

For me, what he did in his first seven years with us was superb but what he did in the last four was stale and then his hypocrisy and aloof nature crept in. Calling for all Premiership players to take a 10-20% pay cut as it would save the clubs and players wouldn't notice the drop at the same time as screwing us for a third-highest-paid manager in the league 75k per week was the start for me. Then his negativity in press conferences and stoney silences when facing questions he didn't approve of was ridiculous.

All things considered I had started to think of him as just another Premiership manager. All the good he did at the beginning was erased by all of the bad at the end so the result was zero. Now he's not even that and I don't rejoice in his failure but I enjoy saying I told you so when at the time I said three names Curbishley, Burley & Allerdyce. I guess now that's four...

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