Martinez: Genius or Insane?

So yes, he is insane. But then again, some geniuses have their eccentricities.

Just looking at the squad it is without doubt the best squad we've had in decades, that's down to Martinez. The midfield is solid, creative and capable of controlling the game for large parts. The forward line is impressive and at times unplayable.

The main problem is whether Martinez acknowledges the problems, and Wigan suggests he doesn't. Then what do we do?

We do have the best squad we have had for years but that alone does not guarantee success. Players still have to work hard and want the success and they have to be drilled in all aspects of the game by the manager / coaching staff.

Martinez has shown himself to be stubborn about recognising he has faults in his management philosophy but he may not be beyond redemption. We see only yesterday that he is now acknowledging the virtues of set pieces.

However his arrogant side shows when he tries to link his new found discovery on set pieces to the abilities of Funes Mori. Presumably before him we didn't have players capable of taking advantage of set pieces.

After the Chelsea game he defied anyone to criticise his game management. Leighton Baines was doing that.

Until he recognises our failing maybe something to do with his unchangeable philosophy we will remain a mid-table team. We may only need need small adjustments to the plan but we need them just the same.

It's a results business and what I've seen, regardless of anything else, is that he's taken a club that was regularly finishing 5th and 6th to being a club that may well finish in the bottom half two seasons running.

There is a case to be made that there are mitigating circumstances, e.g. the replacement of an ageing squad, but the fact remains that we are currently defensively poor despite having four of the best individual players in the league, three of whom are England internationals. If he had had a better defensive record at Wigan I would be less concerned but somebody is going to have to figure out and rectify that issue.

Some say our defensive issues are down to individual mistakes – not a theory I subscribe to – but, if so, those individuals need replacing and that, also, is the manager's job. Let's not fiddle while Rome burns.

He has, as others have mentioned, assembled the most exciting team in a generation, still working under the tight purse strings modus operandi of Kenwright and the board. My preference is that we should back him; what's the other option, dispense with his services and go through the same story as most other Clubs who hire and fire with no real change in fortunes?

The difference between those who do this and those who flatter to deceive, like 2016 Everton, is that the ability to do this defines the difference between a great coach and a great "manager". RM is almost great but in the end is just a good attacking coach who would be successful under a good manager but who will never be that good manager.

We are 150/1 to be relegated, so don't come up with that old chestnut. Jamie summed it up yesterday when he said what have we got to lose!

I know we are going to go right at Man City this time next week. That's the mentality that has been lacking for too long at our club. Even if Martinez can't take us to the promised land, I've got a feeling he is laying the foundations for a young passing side that will stand us in good stead for the future.

We've just drawn at Man City & Chelsea (being robbed in one of those games) and Blues are screaming that this manger is clueless. I will be amazed if the next manager is called a failure for not winning these types of games.

The results aren't good enough, the dropped points are unacceptable, but I would rather have Martinez in charge next week at City than any of the other names mentioned on here.

Posters are right to point out that his win ratio is really quite poor, but personally, I couldn't give a rat's arse about being mid-table if we finally end our 21-year trophy drought.

How's that for compromise!!

Anyone getting frustrated I'll say it again and yes, I'm a broken record.

Patience. This man is building something very special.

Like Kevin Tully, I'd much prefer to watch our football today than the effective drudgery I had to endure under the previous regime.

We've gone from a team which could defend but struggled to score, to a free scoring team who struggle to defend. Find the balance and we could be great.

What we have now is incredibly frustrating but also very exciting and interesting to watch.

I don't agree with a lot of what you say but I'd love some of your confidence that Robbie is going to create an outstanding team at Everton. Jamie, you can say something a million times; it doesn't mean it will happen... just hope it does, and keep your confident predictions up – it will not do any harm. Good luck with your company and good health.

By the way, if you've got any vacancies for a cannie lad, I make a lovely cup of tea!!!!

Fast forward to present day. I keep repeating this but, forgetting the utter disaster last season, we have been okay against some teams (mainly teams below us) and pretty awful against others (mainly teams above us). People keep assuming the defence is an easy solution. Its not. If it were that easy, the "genius with a plan" Martinez would have solved it. I'm quite sure he doesn't like not winning games. As it is, he has absolutely no idea how to defend and never will. It's been a serious issue wherever he has managed. He wont learn, same as Moyes never learnt how to win the big games. Gung ho football just doesn't work. Even the free-scoring Man Utd team of the late 90s never went gung ho like we try to do. Mainly because they knew it would leave them vulnerable at the back and Fergie, a winner, would never allow that.

I don't have a problem with people wishing to believe in Martinez. In a way, I envy you your optimism and blind faith in that, when we are failing to win games week after week, you still believe. That's fair enough. It's not an opinion I share but each to their own. But let's not start rewriting history that we were never entertaining under Moyes just because it suits the argument of how supposedly amazing we are now. I'd be more convinced (aside from the disjointed product on the pitch) if the atmosphere inside GP didn't make a morgue seem like a party house.

After 11 full seasons, it all got a bit predictable. Same pattern of play & same formation. Of course there were many exciting games under Moyes. You're just constructing your own strawman to make an argument nobody has presented.

Lukaku and Stones. They are part of your "something special", I would presume, and I agree with you that this group of players have huge potential if The Incredible One can keep them together and add a wee bit more quality to the squad, we could have what you describe.

Unfortunately I don't think winning a cup is going to keep the above players at our club beyond this season. This season was our big chance to really challenge for a Champions League spot. Our opportunity has now gone and Champions League football was most likely the only carrot we had in convincing these players to stay. Trying to replace our main striker will be tough, Stones would be easier.

These are different times to when Howard Kendall and Ferguson managed. Nowadays, top players are like the owners, they want success and they want it now along with the money and glamour.

I hope The Incredible One succeeds in his vision for our club, but he has got to stop the "goals against" tally – and quickly!

Look beyond the obvious frailties, their is something very special growing in the distance. Have patience and enjoy the unpredictability. You will be rewarded.

Where was the free-flowing entertaining football there?

Moyes did a great job whilst he was here, but I personally thought he did it at the expense of pushing on to the next level, or taking any chances, especially with younger players like Barkley. I would have liked to have seen what he could have achieved if backed financially, but we did have around the 8th largest wage bill in the Premier League for most of his time with us.

I think the two managers are chalk & cheese. The fact Martinez has erected pictures of all our successes at Finch Farm to remind the players they have won fuck all at this great club sums him up. To me, Moyes always wanted to airbrush our history from recent memory, to convince everyone he was the "Moyesiah" who had rescued us from total obscurity.

Some of the football we have played, this season, has been pleasing on the eye, but without the vital points, it's meaningless. Winning the League Cup would hardly single him out as a genius, although it would be very welcome.

If we want a raw young attacking team that plays with flair and arrogance rather than the KITAP1 rubbish, then we'll just have to accept that this team will make mistakes – especially when we have such inexperienced defenders for a large part of the season. I also have a theory about why our experienced pros seem to make more individual mistakes under Martinez as well, but I'll keep that for another day.

Tim Howard is where I disagree with Martinez. I thought he needed to go at the beginning of the season and I think that even more so now. Hopefully he gets his MLS contract and says goodbye for the memories at the end of this season.

The truth is we have got a good squad now with a lot of potential. We have no problem scoring goals, but we let in too many. Can Martinez get the balance right in the current set up?

I would wager not. There's nothing in his managerial career that suggests he can tighten up a defence.

I think we need a Steve Bould type like Arsenal have, to counter balance Martinez' obvious attacking flair. We are not a million miles away with our current squad. But we are a bit soft and naive with our refusal to see a game out. If we can develop that side of our game, the sky really would be the limit. But Martinez would first have to recognise this weakness for that to happen...

He is creating a Martinez brand and he may well develop it elsewhere with more money and different players. However, this Premier League was there to be won this year and we needed a pragmatic coach to do it. I really think he's not too far from what we need and his supporters on here might be right. I think that without investment we need someone quirky with a plan. To me, that is not Roberto.

I bet he sits the team down and shrugs 'what the fuck happened out there?' I don't believe Martinez coaches the players to react and play as badly as they do.
Tim Howard take a bow son.

I believe (hope) Martinez's focus on development of the player will produce results in the long term. If he loses Lukaku and Stones in the summer I'd be surprised, as stated earlier both are on long contracts and we don't need to sell.

Cleverley, Barry, McCarthy, Besic, Barkley, Deulofeu, Lennon, Lukaku, Funes Mori and Stones. All good players and they want to play for Martinez. I expect Baines to play himself into first choice England left back in the summer.

Howard, Jagielka, Coleman and Mirallas are all Moyes men although he might want to keep Coleman and in reality he should be able to find a defensively solid centre back pairing between Jagielka, Funes Mori, Stones.

I wish Mirallas was as good as he thinks he is and Timmy 'Hands' Howard is a split second away from slapstick insanity. Our defence is weak. That's just one area he needs to address.

Stick Robles in and make Stones Captain.

And then what?

With that icing on the cake as proof, Martinez will be even less likely to change.

And then what?

It sometimes happens that managers who get to cup finals get contract extensions (Kendall?) some have to wait until they win it, it varies.

And then what?

With that vote of confidence tucked in his back pocket. What incentive does Martinez... and now the Board have to change.

And then what?

All the problems that have vexed this site, take a trawl back through the archives and look at all the variations on a theme the titles have in common. Come April and or the end of the season, all of the problems that vex us now will still be there because nothing, in real terms, will have changed.

And then what?

As may be likely after the Euros and the window, one or maybe more of the few things that delight us may not even be here... and then what?

It seems to me that too many people have bought a powerball ticket in 'the Martinez can do it – eventually lottery'. despite knowing or should that be refusing to see that both here and at Wigan he was not big on defense and if he hasn't changed by now he won't.

I'm also convinced that just as Moyes was somewhat like Buchan, Martinez is somewhat like Carey, a purist. What we need is some one who is somewhat like Catterick to come in and sign a bit of pragmatism / mongrel and add it to the softer purer side. His first signing was a goalkeeper... that 'll do for a start.

The foundation of a good side is defense and we all see the limitations. We want a new keeper and have for several seasons. We need an experienced playmaker and better cover for Lukaku.

Hopefully this mad genius will resolve these issues as ultimately it may cost him his job. Even the board will recognize we have a problem and their patience is being stretched.

He's definitely got a long term plan and with a bit of deserved luck we'd be sitting in 6th place talking about pushing for the top 4 – fine lines indeed.

One thing is totally obvious though: players want to play for him. Besic, Lukaku, Deulofeu, Jimmy Mac are only here because of him and people need to remember that. As depressing as it is for fans to hear, players don't give a shit about EFC per se, but will play for good managers despite the team.

I am confident about us winning the league cup. Martinez is a winner, I do think he got this job solely on the back of the FA Cup win and he knows more than anyone how urgent the need for silverware is for this great club.

Better teams than us have sacked their managers for far less than the situation he has got us into and for me, after 57 years following Everton, I now seriously envisage us being dragged into a perennial relegation fight under Martinez.

Under Moyes, love or hate him, we were a top eight club apart from a couple of glitches. Make no mistake, the only way we are going at present under RM is down, down, down.

Howard is Howard. An experienced (as in: 'old'), reliable (as in: 'tends to make the same mistakes, reliably'), keeper who has the manger's confidence (as in: 'undroppable while still breathing'), but still capable of a spectacular stop, once in awhile.

RM has at least made an effort to shore up the centre-back situation. Stones, if he stays, and Funes Mori have the makings of a first class pair central defenders. We will have put up with Tim Howard for this season at least.

RM is neither genius or insane. Every manager has things they're better at; and things they're not so accomplished at. I think he has a vision of the way he wants the squad to play. That vision going forward is fairly clear, the further back you go, towards our own goal, the foggier it gets.

Kevin, not desperate mate, there is plenty of evidence to suggest Martinez has got it wrong and not turning up to play the 2nd halves of games where they were so dominant in the 1st half is an issue that needs addressing. They could so easily have lost those games. I'm also not rattled. As you say its all about opinions. Having an opinion that differs from yours doesn't make me rattled, rather, you saying that just deflects from the fact that you haven't addressed the real issues

We can argue the pros and cons of Martinez's abilities but the combined quality of the squad will out over a seasons play, if we could afford and attract the likes of Aquero alongside Lukaku, Hart in goal how many more points would we now have?

Pie in the sky at the moment I know with the current owners. It's a chicken and the egg situation with our club, it has been for decades, the very top players wont come or stay because we are not successful enough and we can't afford their silly wages, but without them we'll always struggle to make the break though!

I fear the team will be ripped apart in the summer and we will back to square one once more. We might then be cash rich there's that consolation, but can we adequately replace them?

Alas, his stubbornness seems to get in the way of him doing this and, although I had been recently looking to blame Howard for most of our defensive issues, I read a stat yesterday that suggests that maybe the main problem is Roberto HIMSELF.

I am not sure if this stat has been raised on here before but in the final 5 games for Wigan, in the season they got relegated, they gave up 7 points from winning positions.

This suggests to me two things;

1. Given his history, it seems a clear indication that Roberto has always had issues defending a lead; and

2. He is in denial over it and/or a very, very slow learner.

If he loses another lead to Swansea this weekend, I think he is going to be under huge pressure from the fans.

1. Who are the Managers with previous experience in EPL currently available?

Moyes, Rodgers, Mourinho, Monk, Holloway.. Do any one of us want them? I think it's a BIG NO!

2. Who are the managers with descent reputation abroad who will fit into our philosophy?

Unai Emery, Frank De Boer, Diego Simeone, Thomas Schaf, Dieter Hecking... Will they be willing to come here? I thinks it's highly doubtful.

3. Okay, even if they come here, think of the European Managers who came here with fantastic reputation but left with their reputation tattered?

Michael Laudrup, AVB, Pepe Mel, Felix Magath, Dick Advocaat.

The same Old Guard of Allardyce, Pulis, Hughes, Redknapp, Bruce, Hughton, Pardew keep on changing & rotating clubs for various short to medium term stints.

So, to conclude, unless we develop our own manager!! or pluck from nowhere, à la Pochettino, I think it's better we stick to this man who at least does not create rifts, doesn't give bad publicity, doesn't make us a laughing stock; instead makes us likeable & watchable.

Thing is, we can do better than this. I wanted the last manager out because I didn't think he had the skill set to get us into the top four regularly and challenge for trophies. No hate, no bitterness, that's it. His performance since his departure have not convinced me otherwise.

I like Martinez's intentions, his positivity and his stubbornness. I don't like his ignoring of fundamentals, his repeated mistakes.

Above all, like Moyes, I don't like his conservatism and fear. It seems worse under Martinez because his intentions are clear and his talk so positive.

I'd like the Everton manager to build a team that plays some of the great attacking play I've seen this season. I want him to pay attention to the defence, to make it tighter at the expense of 10% of our forward play would do me.

If Martinez wants to be that man, that's fine by me. At the moment he's only doing half the job and it isn't good enough.

He sells players at the right time and keeps players when everyone thinks they'll be prised away. We've been unfortunate and naïve at times, but I still feel this will be season to remember. Next season might be his last chance at the top 4 though before the squad starts to come apart.

This was not the case for Martinez; he already had the best defence in the league with overlapping fullbacks. He also had Stones, Barkley, Oviedo, Naismith, Mirallas, Galloway and Browning at Everton. In his first season, he showed they could attack with the inclusion of his purchases; they were unlucky not to finish in the top 4.

He was denied partly because of the strength of the top four and because of the win against Arsenal at Goodison Park. In that pivotal game, he changed players around not because of injuries, not because of bad play, but because he thought he could outwit the opposition manager. It worked for that game and backfired against Southampton in the next game and for the rest of the season. Martinez was proud for destroying Arsenal but pride comes before a fall.

He has continued a similar style to this day. What happened to "I will play players if they perform well"? Naismith scored 3 goals and gets a short time in the next game and then disappears from selection. Ditto for Mirallas. This applies to all except his "favourites" Kone and Howard – what message does that give to new prospects looking to join Everton or coming through the ranks???

Take Galloway: I was worried at the start but he played really well... as soon as Baines is fit, he is dropped against Man Utd but it was obvious that Baines could not last the whole 90 minutes – he was worn out. Once again, changing the team caused a defence dysfunction.

I suspect this action played a part in Byram's U-turn. He knew he could play really well but Coleman would still get his position back.

This is not the way to get the best out of players; "only the thought of a bad display and you will be dropped" gets the most out of players. This is basic and yet Martinez persists in his pattern of selection. I think Martinez may be getting worried about his position.

In his first season he said we could not win the league because the big teams had so much money to spend and had such big squads – has anybody told Leicester, West Ham and Stoke this?

What grates the most is my LFC friends openly admitted that we have a better squad this year than they did and yet we nearly lost to them... please explain, Mr Martinez?

Thank you for the kind words. For both of us, I hope I'm right too.

I've absolutely no idea whatsoever a cannie lad is, but screw it - you're hired.

You'll have to live on like $5/hr but screw it, you'll be in sunny Florida. Gotta pay your own way over the Atlantic of course...

That's the fly in the ointment.

Holding onto the players is going to be the key to success and it will not be easy. Brent Stephens mentioned yesterday how frightening a proposition it would be with an Lukaku-less Everton. Scary.

I think the Martinez conveyor belt is in full production mode and as in life, there will be a setback or two most likely.

Still believe he has the correct approach for Everton Football Club.

Moyes's downfall was that he didn't understand strikers, he didn't realise that they needed to preserve their energies, to be razor sharp when it REALLY mattered. He wanted them to do as much running as the rest of the team. Goodison was known amongst the faithful as a strikers' graveyard.

Russell,

I really don't know who you are referring to when you say "Martinez has the ear of talented young players whom he has managed to bring to the club, despite competition from more 'desirable' teams..." who are these players? Stones has already asked for a transfer and Lukaku waited all summer for a better offer before putting pen to paper. So who else is there? And who were the other "more desireable" teams they turned down?

Martinez has three English internationals in his team, he has the much sort after Seamus and he has Mori, a proven international, but just as Moyes didnt understand strikers, Martinez seems unable to communicate with his defenders, he just dos not get this defending lark, if GP was a Graveyard for strikers on TGT'S watch, it's a funeral parlour for defenders on Roberto's.

I cant think of many managers who's results and league position are both deteriorating despite having a dramatically improved squad.

Genius? he only has to be slightly above the ordinary with these players and he can win a cup.

Let's see if he can manage that.

The reality? We probably get the manager that we can afford and I believe RM is at the top of his ability now and will take us no further because of his inflexibility. I also think he's going nowhere because of the board's commendable loyalty.

Keep supporting the Blues though, good luck with getting to Goodison Park.

It's a small business. ;0) I'm worse than Kenwright with expenditures. Ask my wife...

I agree with Darren as well. Under Moyes we did play some pretty decent stuff for a couple of years. It was – and I mean this sincerely not tongue and cheek – wonderful to watch at times.

But one also has to admit that Moyes would indeed shut up shop and had an inferiority complex about the so-called "bigger clubs".

And, whereas Moyes had a brief run at some fairly pretty football:

As Darren states, he seemingly could never, the Yak aside, find a striker who could actually turn that football into something truly wonderful...

Moyes had some truly desperate years where the football was just gawd-fucking-awful...

And, in my opinion, he didn't grasp the concept of developing youth at all like Martinez does. Moyes – and I stand to be corrected here – never had a kid come into the side and had that player's evaluation / market value sky-rocket. It can be argued Martinez has (it's fact with at least 3 players in Lukaku, Stones, and Barkley with more on the horizon). We have a brighter economic plan under Roberto by buying low and selling high if the need arises for fiscal responsibility.

But the Moyes bashing, although he's not my cup of tea, does conveniently forget some good football and enjoyable performances. Having said that, I'd slit my wrists if he came back.

I would not include Barkley or Stones in the Moyes "plus column". He never played Barkley and in fact benched the poor kid forever after a mistake (Newcastle I think), and Stones had completely developed under Martinez and I doubt he'd have gotten a sniff of playing time under Moyes.

Moyes just didn't give the youngin's a chance.

Darren, I can't agree with you when you say our football during Moyes's last two seasons was brilliant. We did play some really good football in that time, especially early on in the season, at both Swansea and Villa, but we were always only going to ever be just nearly men for me.

We won at West Ham, then Newcastle (2nd Jan), over the Xmas period, then never won another match away from Goodison Park. We looked tired when we needed to push on, and if a Martinez team only seems to play for one half, I always felt a Moyes team could only ever do really well over half a season.

Maybe it was the size of his squad, but I sometimes felt like he was trying to flog dead horses, instead of rotating when players looked tired. That said his teams knew how to defend a lot better than the present lot, although I think this team is much better when they attack.

Great point about points and position deteriorating, Darren, especially as you say, with a much better squad. I honestly think Martinez is giving a lot of us bi-polar and I sometimes wonder if the perfect job for him would be in charge of youth development? Maybe if he can win us that cup, I might just change my mind!

Director of Football, although not popular in your neck of the woods, would surely be a perfect fit for Roberto if you're critical of his managerial record, approach, and tactics, no?

Martinez has got us playing some great attacking football, but I also think his teams can defend as good as any David Moyes team, when he sets his stall out this way. (I'm gonna get slaughtered for this!)

When he goes back to the basics, his teams can usually defend, but then they never seem to have the same spark when they attack. If he's capable of changing this, then I think he will become a very good manager, but it's not easy for anyone when they have to go against their nature, to change.

It's probably the reason that not many managers really succeed, because it's very hard to change.

Ardiles tried it when he managed Spurs and they got regularly creamed, and was sacked very quickly, and Martinez isn't as extreme as Ardiles, but he does seem to have a mindset of 'If we keep the ball – pass, pass, pass, pass, that means the opposition won't get the chance to score because they haven't got the ball.'

But, Roberto, teams DO get the ball, and are not just going to stand there marveling at our silky ball skills; moreover, more pragmatic managers will and do play systems that nullify our pass, pass, pass game.

So I'd call Martinez an idealist, and like all idealists, even if they're in a minority of one, will still be convinced they're right – look at all those soldiers out of step with our Tom:

Wigan A B C D
2009-10 37 79 -42 2.08
2010-11 40 61 -21 1.61
2011-12 42 62 -20 1.63
2012-13 47 73 -26 1.92
Everton
2013-14 61 39 22 1.03
2014-15 48 50 -2 1.32
2015-16 67 55 12 1.45 (projected)

(Column A=GF, Column B= GA, Column C= GD, Column D= Avv goals conceded per game)

Using the alleged drudgery of Moyes as a stick to beat Martinez with is just laughable. There is nothing entertaining about throwing away points.

Dave, a couple of times, and Darren have shown up the absolute emptiness of the boring Moyes Everton myth so I won't labour it (though you are of course entitled to your opinion that a 6-3 win over Sunderland is more entertaining than a 7-1).

But back to the OP. Moyes not having the ability to sign entertaining young prospects? What, like Cahill, Arteta, Pienaar, Jagielka, Baines, Lescott, Coleman, Yobo (post world cup and his first signing ffs) and not to mention Stones him bloody self! Admittedly, most of these players were over 20 when we signed them so therefore couldn't possibly be as exciting as, say, a 19 year old but whatever, it is all about opinions.

The question shouldn't so much be whether this man is genius or insane so much as, simply put, is he fit to run our football club. With every inept performance the answer is swaying emphatically to 'No'.

Not everyone's cup of tea, how can it be when we are throwing so many stupid points away? But as the season progresses, you can definitely say the same thing about our attack.

If we'd carry on the same way though. It's also possible we could ship 100 goals as well!

It pains me to say you're numbers do bear out.

4th place (really the "holy grail" with Champions League qualification) since 2011:

2011 - Arsenal +29GD / 1.13 GA/game
2012 - Spurs +25GD / 1.08 GA/game
2013 - Arsenal +35GD / .97 GA/game
2014 - Arsenal +27GD / 1.09 GA/game
2015 - ManU +25GD / .97 GA/game

Some notable respectable finishes:

2012 - NewCastle 5th place 1.34 GA/game
2014 - Spurs 6th place 1.34 GA/game
2014 - the shite 2nd place (thank you Stevie G for the slip) + 51GD /1.32 GA/game
2015 - Spurs 5th place 1.39 GA/game

The numbers - data - basically say the instant you climb above 1.2 GA/game you're looking at Europa League (or whatever the hell they call it nowadays) with one glaring exception:

El Poo under Brenda with their definably gun-ho approach would have won the league with a 1.32 GA/game had that banana peel not miraculously appeared under Stevie Gs foot for Demba Ba.

What link does that exception have?

Both managers really learned and formed their stylistic approach at Swansea - open, eye pleasing football.

Nice fellow well met, slick dresser, egotistical, championship standard coach, average man manager, total bullshitter who makes it up as he goes along and who is out of his depth and getting desperate.

In short, more lunatic than genius.

Surely if there was something inherently wrong with the way Martinez approaches the game we wouldn't be so solid the vast majority of the time? Luck only accounts for what happens some of the time not most or all of it.

His record over 6 seasons in the Premier League is a better guide than "one or two" games this season.

He had his moments with Wigan too and look where they ended up!!

They were a Championship club financially. Staying up was success, he managed it 75% of the time.

Oh, and we all know if only Lukaku could score twice as many goals as our exiting, ball-playing defenders concede, we would walk away with the league and take the cups with us!

The truth, of course, is that with a win ratio of around 30% over the past 60 matches, we are a serious injury away from the drop zone. Lose the aforementioned scorer for more than a handful of games and we are well and truly fucked!

But Isn't life under TIO exciting?

Personally, I find it all very interesting, watching him build his squad and wondering why he uses certain players. Trying to understand that he doesn't send people out just to kick a ball around but to play a role within the team. Able to relate to the movement and thinking of their nearest team-mates. This sometimes means that better individual players are left on the bench.

Unfortunately, no matter how we line up, the fact that we seldom win cannot be ignored. The fact that we have trouble hanging on to a lead cannot be ignored. With so many important fixtures on the horizon, we need to put things right.

Unbelievable!

Your logic is a bit skewed there, mate. I could understand people supporting Martinez and I can understand people criticising him, but you are in a bit of a league of your own.

You criticise him and claim we are going nowhere under him, fair enough... but then praise the board for not sacking him. How does that work? If you truly believe Martinez is falling short, how can you believe the boards Loyalty is "commendable"?

I'm always criticising Martinez, but he stands alone here, I would be far more happy to "commend" this board if they occasionally demonstrated that "loyalty". It was sickening watching Martinez have to go it alone throughout the John Stones saga last summer. This loyal band of men in the boardroom sat in silence as Journos, clown TV pundits, and half-witted ex-players, lined up to pressurise Martinez into selling. They didn't publicly back their man until he had single handedly fought off the wolves and their £38 million had gone up in smoke.

Martinez is making many mistakes, but he isn't doing a bad enough job to be sacked; we are being royally entertained and we could be in a cup final in this time next week. The "commendable loyalty" you speak about would evaporate if they thought their investment was being compromised.

The only loyalty these guys have, is to each other and that will only last until pay day.

Just when I though I had made my mind up, Harold threw a spanner in the works with his post at # 78 – thanks Harold.

Maybe I was starting to feel better about things because this time last season it was so bad – maybe.

Or maybe he is on the verge of delivering something special. The next two games will help me make up my mind.

So if if we just turn a blind eye to the games we have lost then RM is a Genius? Ha ha ha... the logic of this cannot be faulted. I thought I had read every excuse for RM but this... this was something truly special.

Over the years I've seen plenty of good defensive teams try to expand their play, leaving themselves open and failing. It's nothing new and a difficult balance to maintain.

Just like Moyes never really understood strikers, I wonder whether Martinez will ever understand defenders. Under Moyes we were a good striker away from a very good team (he was unlucky with Yakubu). I think we're currently a good keeper and commanding defender away from a very good team.

So for me neither genius nor insane. Like a lot of people I've met in work and life, he's a short, obvious step from success, but is too wrapped up in his own world to notice.

Joe (#82). I never claimed he was a genius.

RM achieved the top number of points in the Premier league and has us up in a semi-final second leg to come.

We are one of the most loved teams by opposition and neutrals for the way we play and the potential we have is miles better than since the late '80s.

I am loving the way we play and some of the goals and football is back to the magic of past great teams.

The results are disappointing having been in such great positions, defence is in need of a replacement GK and a little bit more attention to close games out.

RM is a star and there is potentially something special happening.

This team plays some of the most creative, attacking football I have seen in Europe, especially considering the age of many of its best players. Yes they have to learn to close out games and I think the experience they are gaining this year, taking the game to teams like Man City and Chelsea, the gutsy draw with Tottenham, and yes losing 2-0 leads, will benefit them next year.

Roberto Martinez is neither genius or insane of course. For better or worse he rejects some of what's traditional in English football and he is in the middle of training his young team how to play his way – attacking football, play the ball out the back, be able to control the game when necessary (ie, closing out City with possession even with 10 men).

With the addition of a couple more very god players, a 'keeper and another year of maturity as individuals and as a team, this squad has the potential to be pretty special, especial considering it's Everton and not wealthy like the usual suspects.

Martinez should be judged by his own performance not against a made-up boredom index attributed to our past manager. But of course Martinez's performance can't be justified when we look at the bare facts – bottom-half performance for over a year, terrible defensive frailties, highly questionable gung-ho style of play, nonsensical and contradictory media statements.

And here below is a quote from one of the match reports made by a senior TW reporter from a match in the last couple of years of Moyes reign:

'Everton started to surge forward in waves. Some scintillating football made those parallels with Barcelona not too far off the mark.'

This of course is contrary to the narrative that's frequently now being pushed by pro-Martinez contributors. Thing is this paragraph is actual history, fact, true, not spin.

Now I know that there were dull matches under Moyes, but their are under Martinez too, let's have a bit of balance and reality hey?

Personally, I think he is destroying our club. We have a great side, with three England internationals at the back. We have Coleman, arguably Ireland's best player. We have players like Mirallas, Deulofeu, Besic, McCarthy, Barkley and Lukaku – all quality players. We have a side that are more than capable of not just challenging for the top 4, but we could quite easily get in to the top 4 if we had a better manager.

Many Everton fans were bitterly disappointed when we conceded the 3rd goal against Chelsea; personally, I've become used to it. It's all so predictable, to the point I didn't even expect us to keep the lead when 2-0 last weekend. I just can't understand the mentality of supporters who support him.

I don't see any evidence that we are moving forward; we are currently facing a mid table finish. There is a very good chance that our better players like Lukaku, Deulofeu, Stones and Barkley could leave in the summer. I think our future is very bleak under Martinez.

Here is his take on failing to sign a promising youngster, Byram (though he is in fact 22 so probably a lucky escape, eh fellow ToffeeWebbers?)

"As on many occasions, we were the first to identify a special youngster in the Championship." – What the hell is he talking about?

"We went through the correct procedures but in the end it wasn't the right move for Sam, and he wasn't the right player for us with the squad that we have." – Seriously, what does this mean? We identify a player to sign, attempt to sign him and then – when he chooses West Ham over our club – he wasn't the right player for us anyway? This is really "incredible" stuff!!!

But fret not, fellows: "I'm pleased that we were at the forefront of identifying a young player with terrific potential."

Wow! Please let him be insane. Anything but the arrogant, two-faced, double-speaking charlatan that he so clearly is.

I agree with you 100%. I watched exciting football under Moyes.

Did you ever read about George Graham, when he managed Arsenal? How he had to change the style of play from attacking flare football, to defensive play? That was simply because of his ageing First Division side and lack of funds going in to the Premier.

People always said his side was boring and defensive. But it wasn't the case. He was a brilliant manager who was use to winning trophies.

Even when he went defensive he still won trophies.

The point I'm making is, he wasn't a one trick pony. He changed their style of play and carried on their winning ways.

Got to remember Arsen Wenger's early success was with Grahams rock solid defence. Seaman, Adams and Keown.

So defensive play is not always negative. In my view.

What I do find irritating/annoying is his inability to organize something to take advantage of set pieces. In Baines we have a player who regularly contributed goals from free kicks but now I have trouble thinking of one except at West Ham two seasons ago? Corners seem to be an inconvenience to us and on a couple of occasions, most recently against Man City which led to Besic's booking, almost work against us.

And as for the most common set piece, the throw-in, I cannot fathom if we have any system/variation at all. Could it be argued that this seeming indifference is what led to the Mirallas/Lukaku penalty taking or was that because of the one Baines missed against Man Utd? A genius might just ask one of his assistants or even his players to sort something out and improve on their thoughts while an idiot might think they offer little advantage so why worry. After all, they may only give you the possession you hold so dear.

As for defensive organization, we do seem to mark space at the expense of actually attacking the ball. As I've said before on other threads, could we not have the Goalkeeper attack high centres in the 6 yard box while our best in the air cover it between there and the penalty spot. It may not be the answer but it might be a start.

Insane or genius? The devil may be in the detail.

Do you really want Moyes back? Don't think Man United or Real Socieadad do.

Would you rather have Klipperty Klopp?

We are in a semi final after less than 3 years of Roberto's rein. We have a one goal lead against the Multi Millionaires of the Premiership but that's no enough for some of you.

Look at the players we have up front Lukaku, Mirallas, Deulofeu, Barkley, We have England defenders in Stones, Baines and Jags.

Yes there are problems in defence with Howard but man for man we are a match for most teams in the Prem.

We go out to try and win games not like Moyes who went not to lose them. The one good thing is if we do get to Wembley there will be plenty of tickets available because surely you Martinez knockers won't want to go.

Is the mention of a semi-final appearance a worthless contribution? Is the fact that we have one of the best attacks in the Premier League a worthless contribution?

Maybe you know better, Peter; I would love to see your words of wisdom.

The rest of your post doesn't add much either. Yes we are in a semi final, well done on noticing. Did you notice we have been in them before? Even managed to get to a final a few times (even under *gasp* Moyes). Just checking you noticed.

And yes we do have one of the best attacks, did you notice we have one of the worst defences? Is being 11th in the league, throwing away goal leads like its Christmas, enough for you? But please pardon me, I just like to moan obviously.

When Byram decided he'd rather go somewhere else than compete then of course he becomes a player that does not fit. We need youngsters to compete for starting jobs unless they are clearly better coming in.

Here's a quote that comes after your quotes – from The Guardian: "It was not right for him and it wasn't a challenge he could embrace."

Byram could not accept the challenge of competing/sitting for Coleman – hence not the player we need.

"As on many occasions, we were the first to identify a special youngster in the Championship... I'm pleased that we were at the forefront of identifying a young player with terrific potential."

Have you ever known someone take as much credit for so little? A Leeds player signs for West Ham but at least our manager is pleased to have noticed the kid has talent. Well done, Roberto!

The defence is conceding too many goals, I think we all agree on that. I also think that he should consider more before opening his mouth, mitigating that English is not his first language, and managers have a microphone stuck under their noses every 5 mins. Even so, interviews are not his strong point, I agree, but at the end of the day, it's not that important, is it?

Whatever the style of play, the bottom line is the result is paramount, and we are failing to finish sides off and get the result we want.

There are positives in his favour though, like only Man City have scored more goals than us; he's added some players to ones left behind by Moyes that have made us particularly strong going forward. Up to now, he's held on to our better players and slowly introduced into the team over time Stones, Barkley, Deulofeu, Galloway and Browning. If you add Lukaku to the list, we talking about players now worth a hell of a lot of money!

If we keep conceding goals at the rate we have been doing, I will agree that it's not good enough and his position as manager should be reviewed. But, as far as the issue of losing leads are concerned, don't forget we have to score goals before we can lose those leads.

More importantly I want all talk of Moyes to stop; he was a man who hypnotised so many fans into thinking 7th place for Everton was like Deportivo winning La Liga in 2000. Everton and it's shoe-string budget but high salary budget (especially that for a manager) was ideal for that dour sandbagger.

11 years of Moyes and a few of Smith has given me a need to see a manager who is prepared to have a go.

Like him or not, Martinez has his methods. He may be slow to change the error of his ways but I think he will. He is bright but stubborn and he isn't perfect.

As I was so often reminded in my criticism of Lukaku, if he was as good as I wanted him to be in some areas he wouldn't be at Everton... well the same goes for Martinez.

I just think there are too many fans who did not want him in the first place, who are looking to be vindicated. The squad he has built with a massive dose of youth is exciting. What is more exciting is what they can achieve if we iron out those weak points. When he does that, he will be Barca bound.

As it's not up to me who our manager, is we just have to go along with it and hope he can do it. But from what we have seen during his time here he is taking us down the table and not up past the fabled 7th position we got used to.

I don't dream of the Moyes days I just think RM is out of his depth in the Premier League... it happens, not his fault.

Martinez said Byram would rather not challenge for that role right now. Okay. If a young player does not want to challenge, then in most cases he's not a fit. Your hate for Martinez clouds your reason.

Now you bash him for something else, saying he takes so much credit for identifying a good player who signed with West Ham. What's wrong with that? We read all the time of managers and scouts that say they wanted to sign a player who is very good now when he was younger. Stuff like that is said all the time.

Hate clouds your reason.

As it is, we aren't. We have won 18 out if the last 60 games. Completely unacceptable for me, as are your views that the fans who didn't want Martinez are looking to be vindicated. What a ridiculous notion that I would shell out good money to go to the game week after week just to hope we lose.

As to your assertion that Moyes never had a go... look at the win ratio compared to Martinez and see how that pans out, shall we.

We are all frustrated this season, and rightly so. We have an exciting squad of talented and (mostly) young men. But, we must remember, they will make the mistakes that young men make. They will get carried away, and jump into the crowd, allowing the opposition time to score. They will have lapses of concentration at vital moments. That's what young men do.

Wenger realised he was not the best defensive coach, and brought in Steve Bould; Martinez needs to do something similar (David Unsworth?).

Martinez clearly has a plan, over several years; what he has shown so far should entitle him to the time to bring that plan to fruition. He must have something about him, if players like Lukaku, Cleverley and Deulofeu are so obviously keen to work with him.

He was said to be inflexible, yet he has shown that flexibility in recent weeks. It is not necessary to be 'Pro' or 'Anti' Martinez; I am neither, or possibly, both! I see him as a talented young man, with some problems and baggage, that need clearing away.

What is not acceptable is the relentless personal abuse and outright hatred that is (sometimes) heaped upon him in these threads. He is neither a genius, nor insane; he may not be the best, but he is certainly, not bad!

To those who say 'we're entitled to our opinion'; there is an important difference between an opinion, and sustained personal abuse.

So, the end-of-term report should say: 'Shows some talent... Could do more'.

Like #104, I do have this strange instinctive feeling that, one day, he will indeed manage Barcelona; but who knows... they might win the Copa del Rey and get relegated in the same season!

I keep reading about Martinez persuading youngsters to join us despite them having opportunities to join what Russell describes as more "desirable" teams.... can somebody please provide a list of these players.

I can only assume it happened when I wasn't looking.

Michael - so now hate clouds my judgement? You sound like Jedi Master Yoda, if only you were as wise.

Martinez bids for player, player chooses another club, Martinez points out how clever he was to almost sign player and to spot that he has talent anyway. This is covering his arse. As you like to say; pretty clear.

On that note; how is it 'pretty clear' that "West Ham offers a better chance for first team football than Everton at right-back"?

Are you aware at West Ham, Byram has two right-backs to get past (Tomkins and Jenkinson) to our one? That said, out of the mouths of innocents, you might be right given the propensity of Martinez to rush favourites back in regardless of form or fitness. (I'm referring to Howard and McCarthy in particular in case I'm not being pretty clear.)

So, he has the best squad in years with some fantastic talent and yet here we are, in the bottom half of the league and we are all praying that we beat Swansea tomorrow. Yes, praying that we beat Swansea.

Martinez has to go because next season we will be worse I guarantee it. How many players will we lose this summer? Does anybody think that Lukaku, Stones, Barkley, Geri will want to play next season for a mid or bottom half side?

If Martinez is still the manager next season we will just see the same old rubbish results and we won't have the talent that we have this season. Why do Everton fans think that things will change when Martinez has shown, not just at Everton, but also at Wigan, that he won't change things.

TV appearances are up, attendances are up, season tickets are up... this is not a coincidence. Martinez has vastly improved our entertainment value and for the first time we are an attractive proposition for burgeoning talent and flair players.

I have held my season ticket in the Main stand through Kendall Mk III, Smith, Royle, Moyes and Martinez and in my opinion the only area Martinez has failed to improve on is points on the board. Hopefully in time our young squad can work on their naivety and the points will come.

We have a far better squad, a far better style of play and for the first time in my memory the ability to hold on to our coveted stars. Martinez has also achieved our highest ever points haul and we are 90 goalless minutes away from a cup final appearance at Wembley. If this is not progress, I don't know what is!

Tell me about these win ratios away from home to the "big 4" in Moyes 10 years?

What about the win ratios in big cup games where Moyes bottled it despite having a good chance... they are the win ratios I tend to remember.

The biggest ratio Moyes had was: cash earned vs risk exposed.

In spite of managing the most financially handicapped club Martinez actually won silverware... Wigan getting relegated was a formality – it was something that was going to happen once Whelan realised they couldn't operate in the Jewell/Bruce wage-heavy model. Martinez reduced their expenditure massively in order to survive financially – he actually did this whilst avoiding relegation.

Has something happened at our club that has made people think that Martinez has been given a war chest and Moyes had nothing? Because it hasn't. Martinez has given us a glimpse as to what 'great' looks like and some people are too hung up on an agenda to see that.

Most people feared relegation battles when Moyes left... it's not an issue with Martinez, at least give him half the chance his predecessor had. At least it's not gonna be boring.

However, to say that it's more exciting now than when Moyes was in charge is a bit of a misnomer. When Moyes finally got a decent team together, he produced an entertaining team. We had Wembley visits and good league placings. When he left, we needed someone to take us forward, someone who had the capability to win the big games and take us into the top 4.

What we have actually got is someone who doesn't win the big games and has taken us down the league. Yes we had a very good first half of his first season but then we tailed off and finished 5th (as Moyes did the previous season) when we really should have finished in the top 4. We had some shocking results especially against Arsenal in the cup and Liverpool in the league. The Arsenal home game the only respite really. You could say Martinez did what Moyes does and bottled it.

Last season was a complete write off and the less said the better.

This season, we still haven't taken it to the big teams away from home. We can only beat teams below us in the table. Martinez, for all his talk had only beaten a very poor Man Utd team away... as did many others that season. This season we struggle to beat anyone. Chelsea is not a big scalp this season as a lot of teams have beat them. We have been poor against all the decent teams this season, the exception being the Man City cup game.

Yes Martinez did win the cup for Wigan. However Portsmouth won the cup in recent memory, Birmingham won the League Cup, does that make their managers at the team quality? Not really.

Cup games are all about on the day which is why fans love them. Everybody has a chance on the day. The league is where you find out where you are really at. It never lies. It says we are a.mid table team. No we wont get relegated, there are too many poorer teams below us for that to happen. However, have we made progress? No, not in my opinion.

We go gung ho, score lots of goals against poor teams and also concede lots. We lauded a 1-1 draw with Spurs for crying out loud. Look at all the games this season against the teams above us and tell me that we have progressed.

In my humble opinion we have gone backwards. Fortress Goodison is no more. We are a novelty team that gives high scoring games against lesser opposition and give the sky boys something to talk about before the better teams come on. We have been soundly beaten by both Manchester clubs at home, Arsenal away, Stoke and Leicester at home struggled for a point against one of the worst Liverpool teams to come to Goodison Park, struggled for points against Norwich, Bournemouth, Watford, Spurs away and at home – in fact, it's far easier just to list the games we have done okay in.

We have a decent squad, not a great one which some posters would have you believe, but one that should be doing far better than it is. It's not an easy fix as some suggest. Defence and keeping clean sheets are not easy things to do; if they were, everyone would be keeping them.

We constantly play with two defensive midfielders and we still can't defend. Martinez shows absolutely no sign that he is capable of rectifying these problems. We have had the problem of leaking bad goals and on a regular basis since the second half of his first season. That's 2 full years. We also have won just 18 of the last 60 games. A dreadful stat and one which is staggering to me to see defended by some posters.

I really hope we get some kind of result at Man City midweek as we all could do with some good news. However, I fear it will just be papering over the cracks.

Martinez doesn't help himself with his interviews; people say he's full of bull but take his comments at face value to discredit him and price his stubbornness.

I say give him at least this season and first half of next. By then, he should show signs of progression and evolving. After all Moyes had 11 years of non-evolving.

Watching Klopp and his wild celebrations after an awful performance at Norwich, I would say he has become the biggest personality at that club, yet they are distinctly average.

The same might be said here at Everton, the manager dominates the headlines, it's all about his grand 5 year plan etc, yet our league position never matches all the hype.

Maybe this is modern football, heaven help us, reflecting the celebrity-driven society we live in.

Individual mistakes have cost us points. Team selection had mostly been good considering injuries.

Referring / Lino's have played their part on losing games.

Keep supporting this season. No point boo'ing. We've got Rom, Kevin, Gerry and Stones for 1 more season so enjoy..

COYB

The next quote sums up my feelings exactly, "We also have won just 18 of the last 60 games. A dreadful stat and one which is staggering to me to see defended by some posters." Nail, head.

To almost quote Forrest Gump, "Everton are like a box of chocolates... you just don't know what your'e gonna get". I am tempted to say, "Let's see what next season brings and ask this question again."

Neither... let's settle on 'idiot'.

At the moment we are losing at home to a side fourth from bottom.

Please let there be a Delta revving away on Goodison Road!!!