Martinez – Twist or Stick?

You're right, Martinez has done an excellent job in terms of bringing in young talent with high potential. And I think it's definitely worth flagging that as worthy of appreciation.

But talent is generally ambitious. We worked hard over the close season to keep hold of that talent for a new season; but that was presumably on the basis of "we have a great core of players, you'll be able to fulfil your ambitions with Everton rather than elsewhere...just give it a season to prove that." Now that we haven't proved that...why would they stay?

Any new manager is a risk. While it hasn't worked out, I actually think that Martinez was the right risk to take when we hired him. We need to continue to take risks; the only way that we're going to advance is to take risks - whether than be a less proven but promising manager, or whatever. A "safe pair of hands" is not, in my opinion, something that is going to move us forward in the way that we need.

Martinez must be judged on his record as our manager (not greatly impressive in spite of all these 'brilliant young players') and not just in comparison to his predecessor. This is just a stuck record. Zzzzzzzzz!

"we ALL sense we are on the cusp of something special " .... err, I don't think so?

At the top level of football you need 11 players playing at a high standard for 90 plus minutes. You can't just have the 6 Martinez players playing his way and the other 5 bewildered by it all. Actually... the Martinez 6 are bewildered as well!

Sorry mate the guy is an imposter and Hibbo's dog would do better!

1) Why bring up Moyes? Different amount of funds available, we were perennial relegation fodder too when he arrived.

2) Martinez – stick or twist... How big and heavy is this stick?

Young and ambitious. Works on a budget, has an eye for young players who he seems to be able to improve and motivate, plays attractive football, can defend, his players run flat out for 90 minutes (I'm sure they could last to 98 at a push) would probably bring his goalie.

Straight talking before and after the matches, in good old English, without superlatives and mind boggling gobbledygook.

There are so many great or very good players in our squad, I have to believe that they, and the wages we pay our managers would entice a top coach to Goodison Park.

Twist for me.

We predominately rely on one striker with no adequate back-up, again no real difference there apart from the fact that the previous regime used a midfielder to bolster the attack when it was required. Ageing back-up players who contribute next to nothing to the cause, once again nothing different there either. In fact the only difference between what has gone before and what is happening now is that the Goodison faithful have lost faith – if they ever had it in the first place – in the current manager, much as they had lost faith in the previous manager after 2012.

Apart from a couple of stand-out seasons (2005 and 2014), Everton haven't really been a top six club; yes, they've ground out results on occasions and collected the points up, usually following a slow start, but honestly we haven't set the world alight under this manager or the previous manager. Possibly the last time it looked as if we had assembled a team to be proud of was circa 2007 but once again they pulled up short – quite a few of those players are still at the club, they weren't good enough then they aren't any better now. Those players by the way in 2007 who are still here are Howard, Jags, Pienaar, Baines, Hibbert and Osman.

I believe we do need a change of manager, but we also need a change of philosophy at the club, stop with all of this we are a happy family mentality and get on with being a football club that wants to win football matches as a 19th century philanthropic ethos doesn't fit into the 21st century cut-throat world of the Premier League. That might be a sad reflection on modern society and admittedly the romance of the game was part of its attraction in days gone by, but if Everton don't get up to speed they will follow all of the other clubs, who failed to change when change was necessary.

Have a look at the link below to see a brief potted history of the last decade or so, it shows that the same club, under different managers has seen similar tales of under-achievement. The manager carries the can but the club dictates his parameters be they financial or cultural. We can change managers at any time, changing the culture of the club will take quite a lot longer, that is not a defence of the current manager as I want him to move on.

The rest of this article is equally rubbish. We can't say whether or not the likes of Lukaku would've signed for Moyes, because Moyes was never give the required amount of money.

Martinez deserves a little credit for the squad hes put together, but he's worked with these players for 2½ years now and they still look nowhere near a decent team. It's time to go.

There is a closing of the gap in quality, at least in the first 11 of many Premier League teams now, compared to the so-called top sides, hence the incredible results this season. If we invest wisely, we can still do well, whoever has the reins.

Martinez may have an eye for a player, and be able to bullshit the prima-donas to thinking we can achieve things, but I am sure that the penny had now dropped amongst our young wanna-bees and that we will kiss them goodbye in the summer.

Time for Roberto to say "Adios". Sean Dyche would do for me. No bollocks from him.

Spurs have young players who are delivering on the pitch and their biggest enemy possibly will be the complacency that comes with others telling them they are a good team.

I happen to think Stones, signed by Moyes, would not only be a regular in the first team but also be a more effective defender had Moyes stayed. As for Barkley he had his best game under Moyes at Arsenal a few weeks before the end of the 2012-13 season. Before that, he flattered to deceive when given the opportunity. I think Moyes would have given Ross more games if he had demonstrated evidence of progress. After nearly three seasons of regular selection, Ross is still maddeningly inconsistent with the jury still out on whether or not he will become the real deal.

To an extent Martinez, in adopting a totally supportive approach, has sacrificed short term results in the hope that the younger players will develop into proper players. Moyes would have been less forgiving and demanded immediate delivery. It is hard to say which approach is best in the long run but players should never be permitted to be too comfortable.

I think the word "productive" is a key here, last season we sat through Martinez's dour brand of passing at snails pace football. Whilst this season, it's been more attractive going forward although whether that continues if Lukaku loses form or interest remains to be seen.

It's unfair to say that Moyes was a bad manager, he wasn't, he signed some fantastic players like Cahill, Arteta, Lescott, Coleman, Baines, Pienaar, Fellaini, Jagielka and you'd have to say for the short term the likes of Yakubu and Saha were a success.

Martinez has brought some good talent to the club but I know feel the major problem here is we have become too fascinated with youth and young player's.

What I feel we really really need desperately is four or five experienced players aged between 25-30 to take over the mantle of the soon coming to an end players like Jagielka, Pienaar, Osman, Hibbert, Howard, key members of the David Moyes era.

What we need now is not more young talent, in Galloway, Holgate, Deulofeu, Browning plus a few others there's enough kids there already, we need some players who are going to stand up and lead the way, men who aren't afraid to be heard.

This had been my one worry lately that we are becoming too reliant on young potential and not enough mid- to late-20s experienced players at their peak.

The truth is, the better the name, the more unlikely they are to want to join, Benitez, Howe, Laudrup, Moyes, even suggestions of bloody Glen Hoddle and Sean Dyche!!

There were mixed feelings on Martinez when he took over, the saying "Be careful what you wish for" was mentioned time and time again... and we find ourselves in the same predicament again.

Look guys, the team and manager need more experience. Youth is great but as we've seen when Jags is not around, you need older heads. I'm done with Howard, he has to go.

I'd much rather have the potential of what we got, flawed as it is right now than the mind-numbing lack of ambition of Moyes.

Get behind the lads.

If it don't look better in 12 months, OK but don't throw away what's been achieved after a few bad results (and linesman, and ref calls). We've had more than our fair share of that BS recently (City and Chelsea games come to mind).

COYB

I've backed Roberto a lot but enough's enough, he tried his best but came up short. Biggest game of his Everton career and he picks Leon, what a mistake to make.

Replacement: a good technical coach who knows how to defend. Maybe the Derby manager... hmmm; Rafa, no; Hoddle, maybe; Sean Dyche, yes; Eddie Howe, yes.

There is no guarantee though and the position now is as risky as when Moyes went. We don't have enough money to attract a top proven manager so we must take a chance. Not by promoting zero experience within the club but finding a Pochettino, or stealing Koeman from Southampton.

I'd go for a Dutchman.

Well, guess what? We can't afford to wait.

Here's my 'philosophy': win a few fucking games of football. Be pragmatic to do so – and stop talking complete and utter drivel.

Lukaku was a no brainer. Deulofeu was cheap because he has a buy back clause. Besic is a young Gibson, injury prone.

Stones, Galloway and Barkley were already at the club. As for the rest of the youngsters he brought in. Haven't seen them play yet. Don't know whether they will be any good or not.

Young players get developed at every professional club and I doubt Everton's are any better or worse than any other clubs. Only time will tell.

I would also argue that young players will not develope as they should under Martinez because he's too soft. Young players need discipline and direction not wishy washy express yourself nonsense. They need to be told when they are playing crap and not mollycoddled into thinking they are better than they actually are.

Martinez out now!

Schermer – Dutch, Low German; Occupational name for a fencer or swordsman, akin to Old High German skirmen "to defend".

Is Stones actually developing as a defender under Roberto's expert guidance?

Is Ross Barkley consistently performing at the high level his potential should warrant?

For me, Stones has gone backwards this season big time due to lack of coaching and Barkley hasn't kicked on to the extent that he should have done. Too often his final ball and decision-making is woeful and you wonder whether he does any training on this aspect of his game?

Deulofeu has some potential but Martinez can't get him to perform for more than an hour at best.

Only Lukaku has really developed this season into a better player.

This here, if anything sums up the lowering of expectations by the supporters, purposefully engineered by the board, it's this line. Failure is endemic, riven throughout the club. The truth actually is, the Everton job is one of the best paid in world football, add to that, it's the most watched league in the world, the staggering amount of money available, coupled with the fact, Everton are practically an institution within the league.

Trust me, the Everton job is desirable, you just need a board with the necessary ambition to make the right appointment.

I am starting to get really worried now.

I find myself agreeing with most of your posts lately.

I be happy for Moyes to come back as an interim manager to rebuild the team spirit and put some discipline into these lads.

Tell him if he gets us into Europe he can have the job back permanently.

It won't be a popular unanimously approved appointment but at least the man knows the club inside out.

My Favourite proposition however is to get Eddie Howe in. He has proved he can do it with sows ears and in the face of adversity. I believe he would really exploit the potential of this lot.

I don't know any more what to make of Martinez. Is he a wayward genius or is he just a wayward lunatic? He has assembled a very exciting, young team but does he know what to do with it? What I do know is that the knives are now out, and not just among the fan base, but in the media as well. BK's always been keen on diverting the media glare away from Everton, unless it suits him, so this must read for very uncomfortable reading for him.

Chairman Bill now has to make a hard decision. Does HE twist or stick? We can moan and groan all we want but BPB has the final word.

Martinez has shown he can't or won't change so adios for me.

Bielsa, Hiddink at the end of the season, Di Matteo to name a few.

Martinez can certainly bring in young talented players but unfortunately he's not able to get the best out of them and set the team up to be successful. No one can question the fact that this squad of players is vastly underperforming this season (and last). He'd be good to have in the club re transfers but sadly not as the actual manager. (His ego and 'belief' would likely never allow him to accept such a role however)

He did also sign; McGeady, Alcaraz, Kone and Lennon who's combined contributions to the club so far is pretty questionable. So it's not like all his signings have worked out. (Nevermind the contract extensions for Howard, Osman, Hibbert and Pienaar(?)). I'm still waiting for Kone to 'explode' in the second half of the season.

Question should really be, is there any point in keeping a manager who is good at bringing in talented youngsters but not in getting the best out of his squad? (Tbh this sounds like the perfect manager for BK and co. Little lay out on transfers and then cash in big time on the youngster after they've gotten 2-3 years experience – obviously with the huge proviso that we don't get relegated in the mean time....)

A lot of the comments are that Martinez's style is not getting the best out the group of players we have, and I would like to see if one of the supposedly top managers, are able to get a better performance from them, with a different approach to tactics. It will be no use to me purchasing new players if they are asked to play into the same system that is proving to be ineffective with this manager.

I was always taught that to be successful you work on the pyramid principal, were you start at the base to learn the fundamental basics and then work your way up to the top gaining experience. Martinez to me never learned the basics and is trying short cuts to reach the top.

It's rare that we're linked with any players between 25-30. That may be due to the club's strategy of buy em young and sell at a huge profit or because the manager doesn't want opinionated players who might question his methods.

Either way we need a catalyst someone like Reid, Cantona or even Neville who can bring the team together. But I don't see the manager signing a strong personality as he wouldn't know what to do with them.

I think it's more to do with personalities. Maybe Martinez prefers the meek and mild types. Besic aside.

What gets me is we set out the same every game against all sorts of different teams and formations. It's bonkers!!! We just seem a one trick pony, and now that teams have figured us out (last season) and not changed a thing.

He is defensively inept as his win ratio and the amount of goals he concedes as a manager shows. As Einstein supposedly said, "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome" or something along those lines.

Lukaku can't do it all up top on his own and due to this is having massive dips in form, Gerry can't do 90, Kone is crap. And the defence has lost all its organisation since the start of last pre season. Don't forget he inherited probably the best back four unit when he took over and since has ruined it's organisation and confidence. As for Stones he looks shattered and lost.

Leicester score goals and attack teams and defend as a unit, their full backs have players in front of them, so 2 passes and they are up the pitch and not on 60-yard runs loosing the ball and it's in behind us!!! Just bonkers!!! It's just not working.

At least with Moyes or many other managers you watch you change tactics to suit the game albeit from 4-3-3 to 4-4-2 from a 4-2-3-1, we still have eleven on the pitch and subs to use and he does fuck all!!! It drives me crazy!!! He has to go!!! Twist for me!!! COYB

What I would like is for RM to somehow channel his anger about appalling decisions against us into provoking a fighting attitude in the players. I'm not just talking about running, tackling and defending better, but also about getting in referees' faces. Our 'gentlemanly' approach might have been suitable when Kenneth Wolstenhome was commentating for the BBC but in these cynical Premier League days, it's criminally naive.

An Italian team, Atletico Madrid, Chelsea or Ferguson's Man Utd would never have put up with the shit we've had to take this season. I don't get why the linesman and ref weren't surrounded by a mob of furious players in royal blue shirts. Instead, Jags goes up to the ref later for an explanation and gets a sarcastic comment about his defending from that twat Atkinson for his pains.

It also pisses me off to hear people on other threads saying Martinez is just making excuses for poor performances when he criticises these decisions, when in the past many people on this site have criticised our meekness in the face of such injustices.

I woke up this morning feeling like shit. My initial despondence has now brewed into slow-burning anger and I hope our players have the same fire in their bellies for Carlisle and the rest of the season.

But how often have you seen any of them directing the younger players in where they should be on the pitch or getting them to focus? I'd say rarely.

He doesn't seem to consult his staff during the game – it's all about him.

Young hungry manager, works with a minimal budget, produces attractive attacking football but can also organise his defence, finds and develops players, gets them to play flat out for 90 minutes, and he might even bring his goalie!

Eddie, not sure if he's a control freak. Did he have any vocal leaders playing for him at Wigan? Maybe he just doesn't see it as being an issue what with the 1,000 passes completed per game stat to maintain and all.

Why not admit it that a lot of you really want is Big Sam. Yes, Big Sam. More than one of you probably have a man crush on the big man. You prefer his Sport Direct trainers to Roberto's Gucci brogues; you envy his Burton's, off the peg, suits to Roberto's Armani haute coutre; you love his windswept hair to Roberto's snazzy haircut; you love his brummy/Lancashire drawl to Roberto's EFL English; you probably even admire his open-mouthed chewing technique to Roberto's slow moving, intense chew.

So guys, time to admit it. Come out into the open and beg Big Sam to come and fulfill your dreams. I'm sure he'd come running.

'Crucially though, I look around and cannot see anyone realistic that Everton could attract.'

Well you are not looking very far or very well then, the EPL is the biggest draw in football right now. You can have your pick of most coaches, Lucien Farve is out of work, he took Borussia VfL from relegation candidates to qualifying for the Champions League. Even Pellegrini will be out of work come the summer. Bielsa, Mancini, Koeman, De Boer, Howe, there are countless options that would jump at the chance.

All it takes is for us to muster a little self-respect as a club and take ourselves seriously.

Di Matteo left Schalke with the club in Europa. As you said, many other possible candidates too. I'm not sure about De Boer, but if possible, would love him here with his knowledge of the Dutch system and players.

I think if we can nab De Boer, it should calm everyone out there fearing that our young stars will leave.

We did the right thing moving from Walter Smith to OFM, let's pick a guy now that can really improve on what we have done over the past 10-15 years of stability.

Thanks to James, I'm thinking De Boer, but Di Matteo interests me equally. If we really want a punt, we could do much worse than consider AVB or Laudrup or even Hiidink (OK, he's Roman's good friend so that's not a plus).

How ambitionless could we get?

I can imagine his first team sheet against Newcastle:

Howard
Hibbert - Jagielka - Funes Mori - Baines
Barry
Osman - McCarthy - Gibson - Pienaar
Lukaku

He'll go on to register five 1-0 victories in our last 15 games and save us from relegation.

Meanwhile, we've all died of boredom.

It does not equate to low expectations for Everton!

Lee what's your point? are you for or against. Halfway down you say how he has assembled a decent squad and doesn't know what to do with them.

And he's making such a poor fist of it, more and more are wishing for the previously unthinkable 'bring Moyes back'...and even worse, some are even saying if he does a half decent job, which wouldn't be hard from such a low baseline, keep TGT on.

Nothing is going to happen this side of a buy out...For better or worse (worse) Martinez IS Everton at the moment. Elstone? nah glorified office boy ala dads army (stupid boy). Bill has his own problems. The Invisible puppet masters will, if they bother at all, glance at the table, see 12th, tut and move on.

Draws Vs Carlisle and Newcastle - par for the course, will no change.

Martinez = No Change.

Buy Out goes through, all previous bets off, but my new bet would be...No Short Term Change...unless they have Klinsmann, Arena or some other Foreign / MSL 'hotshot' sat with his bags packed ready.

Back to cards; We could be playing Texas hold-em with the flop for a while yet, while the new dealers / carpetbaggers / asset stripers get set up for 'beggar my neighbour' and 'strip jack naked'.

Jamie 51, I get ya. I have that same feeling when I bought the wrong bet. When do you know its a loss and cut the losses? End of season? When we're in bottom 5? It could all change for the better tomorrow of course, when we're doing what we did under his first season. But he's far from that right now. Improvement must mean we move up the table, agree? That is the line in the sand that I can imagine right now. Nothing less.

Incidentally, Palace is in a worse form than us and lie just one above us. Imagine what they would do had they been top half for the past 10 years.

Sometimes we have to be ruthless. Because for all the yous and mes, we wouldn't have a job if we screwed up that badly. We're not sack happy, but we're not sheep either.

I for one do believe we have an exciting young crop of players but the team seems to lack belief, I have said this before but the team plays great yet there is a fragility as if at any moment we can capitulate which we have seen on many occasions. There is a missing link, someone to gel the team on the field an outright leader!

Unfortunately I have crossed over to the Martinez out camp because as much as I am proud that Everton FC are not a trigger-happy club the results over the last 18 months have been abysmal and we are in results business so he should walk before the confidence of this young team is on the floor and they will desperate to move on at the end of the season.

As for a replacement I would opt for the relative unknown Paul Clement of Derby County, one look at his CV and you will understand why !!

Lastly I would like to make two points:

1) John Stones is not a central defender – he is very much like an old-fashioned sweeper in front of the back four! In fact, I would push him up further upfield to central midfield, the young fella has a great eye for a pass, he can split defenses much more than Barry which brings me to my next point.

2) We have won 6 out of 23 games... pretty appalling, and yet Barry is first on the team sheet every time; now surely not one of you can disagree he is just as much to blame as the rest of the squad? He plays every game... When watching the film Moneyball the other day, I started thinking that sometimes the problems are not so obvious and the system Martinez likes to adopt with two defensive midfielders is clearly not working – THEY DON'T OFFER ANY PROTECTION! Look how many goals we have shipped! Stats don't lie – it's time to try something different and drop Barry.

Johnny Carey, 1958-61, finished 5th, sacked.

Harry Catterick, 1961-73, Two Titles, One FA cup win. Moved upstairs, otherwise sacked.

Billy Bingham, 1973-1977, 7th, 4th, 11th, sacked after 8 games without a win.

Gordon Lee, 1977-1981, 9th, 3rd, 4th, 19th, 15th, sacked.

Howard Kendall, sacked twice, Mike Walker and Walter Smith sacked. This notion that it's not the Everton way to fire a manager, is nonsense and has only persisted recently because of the complete lack of ambition shown by our board.

Perhaps we should count Howard as a Martinez player because no other coach in the world, including Moyes, would have him in the team.

Martinez was a breathe of fresh air, but the cracks appeared for me before Christmas 2014, with the start of that awful run where my faith was lost completely. Absolutely no enjoyment since then. The minor highs completely cancelled out by the lows and most worryingly those draws snatched from the draws of victory.

The positivity in the media interviews I eventually saw as psychobabble, used by every HR, training or management consultant I've encountered in my life. I now hate Roberto with a passion I never thought I would show – with only Johnson still enemy No 1 to compare with.

Get him out now – all this analysis is merely delaying what we all know – he's a busted flush.

Your view acknowledged but one question. You accuse Moyes of throwing one competition to win another. Didn't RM throw a season to win a cup to advance his own career? I know which I think is worse.

Andy, isn't it time with all of the people now realizing that Everton's defending is woeful to get off Howard's back as the culprit? Grow up and recognize that there are problems in front of him. Case in point is the fact that Robles in and no clean sheets versus Man City and three goals conceded. I don't care if it is Robles or Howard in the goals will keep coming until flaws are addressed.

Moyes left this team in great shape. RM has taken it backwards regarding results and optimism. I for one would prefer Dyche as our next manager, sooner than later.

Kendall was sacked once. He too resigned in 93 when the board rejected his request to buy Dion Dublin.

Flo went on to become very successful at Chelsea while Joe left by mutual consent because PJ felt the supporters wanted better and would not back Joe in the transfer market.

Give him next season till Christmas and we will be in a relegation fight, so Wigan Two Everton One over the door.

I seem to remember Flo and his mate from Norway were on Big Joe's list. I also seem to remember we lost Horne and a couple of other players that season as Big Joe had to trim the wage bill.

Indeed, in an interview on radio, BK (just a director at that point) said he wished we could get back all the players who had left. Those were truly horrid days.

My dilemma is that I really enjoy the attractive attacking style of football we play (when it goes right), but I can't accept the woeful defending. By defending, I mean goalkeeper, back four and midfield. So I am not singling anyone out, other that the manager that picks the team.

Despite the attractive attacking style, at times, I think a manager should be a manager of the whole team, the tactics, and be prepared to adapt to different situations. Not a one trick pony. I now believe that RM is not a good risk to take, and it is time to move on.

As far as a replacement goes, I agree with other posts, we should aim high. In the world of football, the Everton job is a top job, great wages, in the richest league in the world.

I would be inclined to offer a top manager, a stupid wage, and challenge their ability to build a winning team without necessarily spending the squillions that other teams have done. Give Pep a call, he can only say no.

Amazed he is still here. TWIST!!!!!!!!

It still doesn't change the original point that Everton, before this board took charge would change manager if they didn't meet certain criteria. Those expectations have been severely curtailed since the current board took charge.

Yes, it's prosy and well-written, but it's a pretty insubstantial post which the author himself admits is all highly hypothetical, with very dubious comparisons between the different merits (in Lee's clearly biased view) of our most recent managers with clearly skewered conclusions in favour of Roberto, which ignore a lot of prima facie evidence as to the quality of our results and performances in the past 18 months.

And the ambition of the poster? "We are not going to get relegated. There are at least three teams in the division that are in a world of shit much worse than ours."

Yippee...

Quite frankly, I do not understand why Roberto's tenure as manager continues to be referenced to Moyes, in this and other posts. The club each manager inherited and the conditions and circumstances they had to manage cannot be directly compared. It will soon be 3 years since Moyes left the club. It is far removed from the crisis club he inherited 14 years earlier.

And I wish to make clear, this is not a defence of Moyes. I for one acknowledge and appreciate what Moyes did for EFC. I took umbrage at how he conducted himself towards us and the public utterances he made about Everton on joining Manure.

Personally, I cannot believe any Evertonian – ANY Evertonian – knowing how Moyes treated the club on leaving us for Man Utd could advocate his return in ANY capacity.

The day David Moyes is re-employed in any role at Everton is the day the club finally loses all remaining pride and self-esteem it may still cling to.

One final point. Lee says (in reference to the debate about should RM stay or go):

"Crucially though, I look around and cannot see anyone realistic that Everton could attract."

As other posters have pointed out, to me that's bollocks. Everton, the salary they could pay and the English PL is a huge draw. I suggest you visit this site a fellow ToffeeWebber recently flagged up and see just how many quality coaches/managers they are available NOW, unattached.

Link

But then ... IMO the question of stick or twist with RM is all academic in the current limbo and lack of evident leadership at the club, with BK's apparent illness and talk of a takeover.

Until the dust is settled on those issues, I don't expect any action soon on the manager's position.

Colin Metcalfe (#54), responded with a post which had me nodding all the way. Nice one Colin. You said it for me.

When the pressure is on the players should be so well drilled they know exactly what they are doing for a given situation without thinking. They should all know what to expect from the rest of the defence and how they should set up. This team seems to have no set plans/set ups in defence and when the pressure is high they are all making mistakes and the wrong decisions.

If Martinez is not to be sacked he needs to at least accept that he has no idea defensively (his record proves this beyond doubt) and get someone in to assist him. The problem is, as most others have commented, he does not seem to accept that he has an issue with defence (how can he not?).

Also, how long has he worked with the same couple of assistants? There would be no major business organisation that would retain the same top 2-3 people for years at a time. You need new ideas and people challenging you. Without this everything goes stale. Even SAF changed his assistants fairly regularly.

In summary, if Martinez won't change then why will the results? If he won't accept we have problems then how will they ever be fixed. And if he thinks we aren't under achieving he is a complete doughnut!

He would be a big risk to any team unless he can demonstrate an ability to change and improve a defence. If he loses his job here I think his career is in tatters. So another way of assessing whether Roberto is the right man for us might be to think about whether anyone else would have him?

In response to Derek (52), I don't really have a point to be honest, I am just interested to hear if there are any considered points of view other than Martinez is shite, get rid.

Should the job become available, Moyes, given his previous relationship with the board, would be considered for it. If Martinez were to be sacked right now, given his immediate availability, I would put Moyes as the front-runner, at least to fill in on a temporary basis.

This may not necessarily be a bad thing, he's a more than capable manager and it would be interesting to see him come back in with something to prove. Not a personal favourite admittedly, but a creditable alternative.

When the shite got rid of Rodgers, they did so knowing that they were replacing him with someone better, a guaranteed improvement.

I'm not convinced there's anyone like that currently in the background for Everton, so for now, I am with Martinez. But he is hanging on by a thread.

In terms of football, we are regularly out-playing teams, and then let them score without having to work for it. And it is beyond being a blip. Bournemouth, Norwich, Stoke, Chelsea – games that were well won but then pissed away.

For this to happen, it is clear that there is something fundamentally wrong and Martinez, whether in keeping with his philosophy or not, needs to sort it very quickly, because it is undermining his work and it is going to get him sacked.

As far as I can see, the game at the weekend is make or break. Lose at Carlisle and regardless of my opinion, it will be clear that the players have lost faith and his position will be untenable.

Despite the OP comparing RM to DM, which I think is not relevant, the title of the post is, Twist or Stick? I say twist, as do 80% in the ToffeeWeb pole. If you say ToffeeWeb is a fair cross-section of the general Everton supporter, that means 32,000 fans, in a 40,000 game, would like him sacked.

He's lost the fans, it's only a matter of time.

We should do a global search for a manager who has 1) consistently placed top 5 in a top European league (England, Spain, Germany, Italy ) 2) won a trophy in the last 3 years 3) has a track record for bringing through young talent. There can't be that many.

Regression?

But the system is clearly wrong and not working.

We just don't know what to do without the ball. We don't know how to get it back, as a team. We don't know where to position ourselves when the opposition has the ball. We don't understand that stopping crosses will prevent chances to the opposition. We have no concept of how to defend a set piece properly. For some reason we can't win any headers anywhere on the pitch. Defenders need to defend, not fanny about with it at the back. And we have a keeper who has never been able to command his box.

All this leads to the slew of goals we're conceding. And we simply can't rely on the you score 3 we'll score 4 philosophy. The only team it ever worked for was the Brazil team of the '60s and '70s.

We need a change, whether it's Martinez changing his own philosophy or a new manager I don't care. I just know this cannot continue. It's a recipe for disaster.

Our form, or at least our inability to win regardless of how we play, is frightening. This is the same as last season. Martinez deserves no more time, and frankly he insults every single one of us whenever he opens his mouth.

What will it take to unite us all in one voice? Obviously nothing will be done until the takeover talks are resolved, but how much more of a crisis do we need to be in before there's total unity about the solution to our managerial problems.

Defeat against Newcastle could signal our entry into a relegation battle, we're that close, I want Everton to win every game, but if the worst happens I hope we can all agree the time will have come for a change.

Perhaps with Moyes we wouldn't have signed Lukaku (to be fair to Moyes, he was never given £30M to spend on a striker so the assertion we wouldn't have been in the running is presumptuous, I think even under Moyes we'd have been at least as tempting an offer as West Brom) or Deulofeu, but we would have finished higher in the league last Season, and we would be higher in the league having won more games this season, right now.

And we've still done nothing in the cups. Martinez is a hindrance.

If every shot has a small amount of chance going in, then the floodgate that RM has created mean our GKs has to do so much extra work with little or no reward. Stats wise, we're regressing, but I'm sure RM doesn't care about stats, or points or whether we're in the EPL or not.

Makes me sick that we are standing still when other teams around us moves on.

Time to go.

I went back and checked his Wigan stats and his Everton stats as well as Moyes' stats. Moyes teams were consistent in season goal totals in the 50s, but only conceding in the 30s (not great but Man Utd might take that total this season). Moyes teams kept clean sheets on an average of one every three games (with teams with Howard, Jags, Distin, Baines, Hibbo, etc.)

RM's teams at Wigan finished an average of almost three points less than the previous Wigan EPL seasons. The team scored more goals but the goals conceded increased. More disturbing, the percentage of goals conceded from minutes 70 to game's end increased.

RM, in the first season at Everton, exceeded Moyes in points (Moyes highest total was 67 I believe) and goals scored and the goals conceded remained about the same ( I did not do a last 19 versus first 19 analysis to see if cracks were starting to appear or not). However, the last two seasons, RMs goals conceded increased, clean sheets decreased, and the number of late goals conceded has increased. Oddly, offensively, the number of crosses into the opposing box decreased which also occurred at Wigan. Plus, based on the assumption that Everton finish in the current spot in the table, then his average league finish will be 9th, outside any european soccer places.

Averaging his Wigan stats and his Everton stats results in a panic inducing, body shaking realization that Everton are heading the wrong way fast. This analysis leads me to believe that somehow Everton is slowly being possessed and transformed by the spirit of Wigan EPL into Wigan. Yes, we need new ownership and a new manager, but first, maybe we need a priest, Druid, shaman, cleric, or other holy man to perform an exorcism at Goodison and Finch Farm.

Martinez? Twist.

I imagine that the Naismith sale provided some extra capital that the bidders would allow to be re-invested – probably on a couple of short term loan deals.

Change in Formation was Key

The following is from an actual report but some of the names and dates have been changed to protect the not so innocent.

Everton boss Roberto Martinez is looking forward to a "party atmosphere" at Goodison Park as his side prepare for the final day of the Barclays Premier League season having already secured their safety.

The Toffees' survival and their 63rd successive campaign in the top-flight was guaranteed on Monday when they won 1-0 at Aston Villa, who in turn were condemned to the drop.

Martinez said: "As players and staff we are preparing for the game as always, in terms of trying to win it and give everything we have got. But also, I do want the football club to realise what the players have achieved this season, and what the club has achieved over the last couple of seasons."

The victory over Villa was the sixth in a remarkable eight-game sequence, which has included triumphs over Liverpool, Manchester United, Arsenal and Newcastle, for Martinez's men.

And he wants to see no let up in Sunday's season-closing contest against rock-bottom Norwich, whose relegation was confirmed almost three weeks ago.

But while the Spaniard is eager for his players to focus on the job of securing one last victory for 2015-16, he also feels it is important that their achievement in preserving Premier League status is given full credit.

He added: "To be able to get the 63rd season at this level is an amazing achievement and I want every single fan to be very proud of the team and of being connected to Everton. On Sunday, it will be important to be proud of Everton and make it a real party atmosphere at Goodison Park.",,,,

..."It is important to finish with the momentum that we want to bring into next season," Martinez said. "That is the first thing – secondly, financially there are big rewards which is important, and thirdly, you want to finish with a winning feeling."

"Where other managers could panic or lose their heads, he stays cool. He also always focuses on performances rather than results; if you do that, the results will follow. He came in [from Swansea] with the idea of changing our playing style and it's taken a long time but we're slowly getting there."

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/may/08/wigan-athletic-Roberto-Martinez

So it looks as long as the Board are prepared to back the boss there will be no change of outlook from Roberto and little chance of a different approach, no matter we as fans think or believe.

With this current squad and money available, I'd welcome him back in a nano.

Twist, twist now.

Moyes back? No fucking way after the shit he served up in the last few years with us.

Big Sam? No way – I like him but not good enough for Everton.
David Moyes? No way – had his chance and burnt his bridges.

What I want to know is why can't we have a top manager? Mourinho, Guardiola, Simone, Ancelotti, Blanc?

Everton Football Club credentials:

Founder member of the English Football League.
Longest time spent in the top flight of any club since its foundation.
Guaranteed full house every away game.
Guaranteed support away from home.
We pay EPL Wages
Promising young squad of players.

Question for candidates:

Do you really want to test yourself in the toughest league of them all?
Are you really a top manager or just good at spending money?
Do you wan't to be a great manager? Make us great again and you will be.

Rant over – I am going to water the garden, I find it therapeutic.