The referee, no stranger to controversy at Goodison Park after his antics in a Merseyside derby a few years ago, pointed to the spot as the Austrian went down under John Stones's tackle as Stoke went went in search of a winner at the end of a thrilling game but Martinez felt that his defender had got something on the ball.
The Blues were heading for a 3-3 draw which would have been disappointing enough after Gerard Deulofeu's goal had given them the lead for the first time on the day with 19 minutes go.
Earlier, Coleman had been denied a spot kick when he looked to have been fouled by Erik Pieters in the away side's box but Clattenburg awarded a goal kick instead.
“There is real anger at the final decision," Martinez told evertontv. "The penalty is never a penalty. It’s a situation where it cost us the draw.
“We would have been disappointed with that but to not even get the draw is tough to take.
“John touches the ball – slightly – but it is a touch of the ball. It is a very soft decision in that respect.
“We are disappointed to be losing a point so late in the game, especially when it was a similar action earlier in the game with Seamus Coleman and their left-back.”
He would echo those sentiments to Sky Sports as well where he described Clattenburg's decision as "sickening" and "unacceptable" in its inconsistency in view of the Coleman incident.
"As a referee you have to be sure; you have to be 100% sure and he didn't give it straight away. He's had to think or had to get some confirmation or some help from other eyes that are probably further away from the action so it's unacceptable really to see that decision being so wrong.
"The 3-3 would have been tough to take but losing the game after an error from the referee is even more painful. To give that penalty in the 90th minute you have to be certain."
The manager was once more left to rue more slack defending, though, which created the conditions for three of Stoke's four goals. The Blues were picked apart after a quarter of an hour as Xherdan Shaqiri slotted home Arnautovic's touch on.
And with the score at 3-2, Arnautovic's low cross was not dealt with by Tim Howard and substitute Joselu rapped home a half-volley to make it 3-3 in the 80th minute.
That left Martinez trotting out the same lines about his team having to improve at the back.
"Overall we showed an incredible reaction to come back and get in front but at 3-2 we should have managed the game a lot better," the Catalan continued.
“It is the hardest thing to do, to get back on level terms, then get ahead. It was a real blow to lose the third goal but clearly we have to become stronger defensively.
“There are certain actions we have to defend a lot better and, as a team, we have to get more mature. We have to be wiser in protecting that lead.
"We are a young team but we need to learn how to manage games and how to go through those periods a little bit better."
Asked if he felt conceding seven goals in the last two home games was concerning, Martinez agreed but he insisted that his side was "very close to being a winning team."
"Getting some influential leaders back into the side would help but clearly we can do a lot better than we did today defensively even with the players we have available."
Reader Comments (124)
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1 Posted 28/12/2015 at 17:56:27
Well done Mark Hughes going for positive substitutions. Shocking decision from Clattenburg, very hesitant on awarding penalty which means he wasn't convinced.
Our defending is woeful at times and it has cost us dearly with 8 draws so far this season. Moyesy would have sorted this!
4 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:00:59
5 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:02:28
We pussyfoot around too much at the back. Stones may be great one day but, at the minute, he's only above average and gives the ball away too many times.
Stoke showed us today how to move the ball quickly and, but for Lukaku, this would have been a bigger embarrassment
6 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:03:33
8 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:05:15
9 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:06:55
10 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:08:14
11 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:09:04
13 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:10:36
14 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:10:43
15 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:11:31
16 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:11:37
17 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:14:41
The board won't fire him, it costs money....
I can only think that a top manager could turn this set of players into near league contenders.....near contenders that is.
I've had enough of Bob and his complete lack of reality, we should be top 4 with the best squad of players for years.
We might finish 8th if lucky
18 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:15:11
Man, I would have been irritated with a draw after going up 3-2 with time to see out the win.
Loser is right David Barks.
19 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:16:57
20 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:17:52
21 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:18:59
22 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:18:59
I think my gout is less painful after watching that. Goodnight all it can only get worse.
23 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:19:13
25 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:23:01
How about our back 4, goal keeper and 2 defensive midfielders learn to tighten up, at 3-2 today there was no way it was going to finish at that way, simple runs into the channels were causing utter chaos, it was simply a matter of time - again.........
26 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:23:22
27 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:23:40
28 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:26:56
29 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:27:29
Jamie Carragher's views on Sky (after the Lescott throw in 2007) will be very interesting, this joke of a ref. idiot hates us.
31 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:27:38
33 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:30:47
Creativity is all .... defence is just an ugly concept espoused by those philistines that don't share his vision.
This is a very big EGO at work and we're all strapped in for the ride until someone has the balls to pull the plug.
34 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:33:00
I have had enough.
35 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:35:05
So frustrating as we're a much better side than our league position suggests.
36 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:35:44
This should have been addressed in the summer window, Huth or Shawcross? Finally sorry Tim but you were finished two seasons ago! Valdes is available. However I can't see any signings with DD being undertaken.
39 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:45:11
Why is Howard still being picked Bob??, and when we went 3-2 up, why didn't you bring on Besic, as we had 5 attackers on the field. CLUELESS.
40 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:48:16
41 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:51:14
What really annoys me is this year top four was up for grabs like no other year and we have wasted the chance!
42 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:53:56
Sell Stones and get a proper central defender and decent keeper in.
We are fast becoming an embarrassment.
43 Posted 28/12/2015 at 18:56:29
He seemed more concerned about us not drawing at 3 - 3 that us going behind. And not holding on to our lead. But then he does talk in riddles.
I just can't fathom why he didn't shore up the defence, bring holding players on, especially as we seem to go to pieces when were in the driving seat and have limited time left (9 minutes I think). But who knows what he's thinking. Certainly not on the same wave length as most on here.
So I suppose it's back to the drawing board. Now how many times have we said that.
Even Stones looked out of sorts.
I thought Barry, was our star man again. So why didn't he need a rest?
RM, just doesn't make sense does he? And he's wearing ever so thin.
The strange thing is, we will probably beat Spurs. Convincingly and then loose our next match.
Oh for the joy of being an Evertonian.
45 Posted 28/12/2015 at 19:07:34
To those that go to Goddison, would you say that Martinez just can't organize the back line? Does this fall on our Defensive coach? (Google says this is Dennis Lawrence. Who has followed Martinez from Swansea to Wigan, to here...) If so maybe it's time for a new defensive coach. I hear Moyes is available... (It would never happen but I do like the sound of a resilient Moues back line and free flowing Martinez forward line!)
Your (constructive) thoughts are appreciated.
46 Posted 28/12/2015 at 19:08:45
47 Posted 28/12/2015 at 19:10:08
Nice football or not he can't practice any form of defensive play during training as that defence(not today) is the same except for stones that was water tight under moves that's why we looked great in his first season....out out out!
48 Posted 28/12/2015 at 19:14:00
I said after the Leicester defeat, if you go back to the end of Martinez's first season, our home form is dreadful, and the amount of teams that come to Goodison and score three or more is alarming.
The form at Goodison was always the bedrock for a solid season and a top 6 challenge, it gave us a platform but sadly those days are long long gone.
Goodison is no longer a fortress, teams no longer have any fear at coming here anymore, they just come and outscore us.
7 wins at home from 19 matches last season and so far 3 from 10, its appalling, it's relegation form.
49 Posted 28/12/2015 at 19:14:39
I'm not even angry any more as our season is over it seems. Top good to go down, not good enough for Europe or for silverware, the only question is will we be 8th, 9th or 10th and I can't be bothered to be honest.
Eventually the Martinez era will be over and we may have a properly organised team. 3-4 is a school playground score!
50 Posted 28/12/2015 at 19:15:13
If it was any other referee you could pass it off as one of those things but he has awarded countless penalties against us in his time that there is no longer any credible explanation.
52 Posted 28/12/2015 at 19:20:52
It will never change as long as this guy is our manager. It really is as simple as that.
53 Posted 28/12/2015 at 19:22:19
Show that anger on the pitch ffs!!!!!
Nodody even appealed the Coleman penalty claim . . . under Martinez we are soft and far far too nice.
54 Posted 28/12/2015 at 19:26:58
Apart from Sunderland and West Brom, the other games we have conceded 2 or 3 in we have drawn or lost, did we outscore Bournemouth?
Last season we conceded 6 at home to Chelsea, lost, we don't exactly win many of these ding dong 4-3 games do we?
So you'd think really that the penny would drop with Martinez and he'd start thinking of winning more games in the 1-0 manner we had at Newcastle, albeit not leave it so late!!
Mind you, it's pointless, he's not going to change, he's a manager that's never worked on setting up a defence and is unlikely to ever change!!
I just think that Newcastle game on Boxing Day has bought him a brief bit of breathing space, with fixtures on the horizon against Spurs, Chelsea and three against fucking goal machine Man City, it could be a very long river leading to a violent waterfall for Martinez..
55 Posted 28/12/2015 at 19:27:05
A one trick pony that can't adapt.
56 Posted 28/12/2015 at 19:28:42
57 Posted 28/12/2015 at 19:37:29
I would take any of the top six managers in the championship. Our season is over in the league! Need a lot of luck in the cup matches not to conceed at least three goals against Manchester city.
Our defending resembles Wigan in there prime. Attacking with intent and scoring goals but defending like the red lion on a Sunday morning! Martinez has not learnt from this. Only one outcome, let's hope its not relegation next season!!
59 Posted 28/12/2015 at 19:47:41
Then some players start show-boating and thinking it is all over. Yes, blame Martinez and Clattenberg but also blame the arrogance of the players.
61 Posted 28/12/2015 at 20:15:26
But he had a major inferiority complex with the "bigger" teams. Martinez hasn't which is his other plus. However he is deluded and stubborn and as a result is holding our club back from achieving what it should.
He has to go, but there appears a complete lack of any pressure on him. The only glimmer of light is his contract will be up soon unless anyone is stupid enough to offer him a new deal.
The manager in the other dug out today would be the one for me.
62 Posted 28/12/2015 at 20:22:51
To have lost more games at home than we have won and too have conceded so many goals is totally unacceptable and will destroy the confidence and team spirit.
Please leave as soon as possible Roberto and take messrs Jones and Lawrence with you
63 Posted 28/12/2015 at 20:24:13
i thought it was a definite pen in real time, and it was only the slo-mo replay that suggested that Stones got a stud on it, so unlike all of the hot-headed Clatten-bashers, I can see that without the benefit of replays, they gave it.
The fact is, that Stones slid in and was asking for Arnautovic to go over his outstretched legs. Naive defending.
He will learn, but our manager fails to learn, as we panic as a team, just when we have got ahead....just like at Bournemouth after Barks scored. It is all down to the set-up. He has to go, as he is wasting our best chance in years of a CL place.
64 Posted 28/12/2015 at 20:27:38
We should be comfortably 4th instead of a dodgy 10th
65 Posted 28/12/2015 at 20:28:06
One point from the last nine at home, we have conceded seven in our last two matches at Goodison. It's embarrassing, for everyone, especially the man who was saying lessons have been learned. Experience alone should have given him the sense to keep his fucking mouth shut.
I'm convinced Martinez would be a very good youth development coach, were results are not so important.
66 Posted 28/12/2015 at 20:29:37
The down side is that our defence is woeful!
We MUST change things quick or the likes of Lukaku and Barkley are going to want to go elsewhere to a team who can keep clean sheets and ultimately win things.
We have been short in defence since the summer and have not solved that problem.
67 Posted 28/12/2015 at 20:35:31
You persist in playing Kone who is at best a Championship player with no more than 60 minutes in his tank.You are unable to coach a team to see out a game and completely unable to change tactics.
You are out of your depth,out of ideas and out of favour with the fans.We are sick to the back teeth of your regurgitated sound bites in post match interviews,the last straw is blaming a ref for losing a game when in all fairness had a Good game.
Do us all a favour Mr Martinez, go back to Spain. We the people no longer require your services.
68 Posted 28/12/2015 at 20:37:59
Now its not all negative as I think he would be far better suited to a defensive midfielder , the new Barry , where he can use his undoubted reading, passing skills to better effect.
69 Posted 28/12/2015 at 20:40:08
71 Posted 28/12/2015 at 21:09:31
It's funny but I've thought about that myself regarding Stones.
I think alot of people get carried away so quickly at times and they have already earmarked Stones as a world class defender but I asked the question last year, is actual "defending" what Stones is really so good at?
Or is it just bringing the ball out of the defence with skill and composure?.
I myself think John has a few more years to go and become physically stronger before I can really judge him as a world class defender.
I don't think he is going to get any better in this area sadly working under Roberto Martinez, that's not being negative, it's just a fact!!
Stones's natural ability on the ball is his own work, not Martinez's but strangely I think as a defender who first and foremost needs to defend, I think he'd have benefited more under David Moyes.
Martinez will never ever work on defence.
73 Posted 28/12/2015 at 21:19:23
Now, let me confess, my own emotions follow that path so I criticise nobody whose optimism has changed to despair so quickly. However, what I'm trying to determine is which way the season will finish. I guess three wins on the trot will see normality restored and, as with last season, some satisfaction will be found in yet another mid-table finish.
Such is the journey all Evertonians undertake - I guess it's our lot.
75 Posted 28/12/2015 at 21:21:36
76 Posted 28/12/2015 at 21:23:12
77 Posted 28/12/2015 at 21:29:04
I've had more than enough of this so called entertaining manager. He's bored me shitless . That's my opinion.
78 Posted 28/12/2015 at 21:29:30
Over RB's career so far he has managed 1 league one honour and an FA cup, but that's a cup run, he did also manage to get relegated that same season. His win rate is 39% that's about 44.57 points per season. If you swing that 2% either way you are looking at relegation or possible top 6. And it has been the same for RB since he started managing in 2007 I think it is??
So basically in not even going to get annoyed anymore, we have the players, we have the infrastructure but we don't have the manager with enough knowledge within his so called philosophy to utilise what he has at his disposal. It's just a shame the board didn't study this before giving him the job. We have not progressed at all and have remained still, in fact probably gone backwards over the 18 months and the platform that had been built 11 years previous has all but been decimated....
If BK can do just one last thing for this club and the fans before selling us, is to bloody well get rid of this mediocre manager and install someone with some fire in his belly.
79 Posted 28/12/2015 at 21:35:10
At that age, they may not have 'brought the ball out ' so stylishly but they were all much more competent and effective at the heart of our defence. And there have been others.
80 Posted 28/12/2015 at 21:40:50
81 Posted 28/12/2015 at 21:44:22
I also think we should be gracious enough to acknowledge how well Stoke played. Shaqiri is a fine player to watch and I also love watching Bojan. I thought Hughes was the wrong choice for them but they are a very good side, much better than Leicester in my view.
82 Posted 28/12/2015 at 21:46:03
84 Posted 28/12/2015 at 21:59:44
Even though RM's first season was a wow, the 2nd season a disappointment and this season offering further frustration, the defensive set up, such as it is, has not greatly changed.
Essentially, the 'default' position of our defensive line up - that is, the prime area they occupy on the pitch on the chalk board is the following:
RM has his fullbacks pushed up wide to the half way line. Behind them, he likes his two centre backs to go wide either side ahead of the penalty area. This creates space down the middle of our half which, depending on who is available (but mostly it is Barry) is filled by a defensive or deep lying midfielder - be it Barry, Mcarthy or sometimes Ross.
The idea is we retain possession from the goalkeeper forward, who has the option to roll the ball out to either wide sitting centre back, or the deep lying midfielder. This is then recycled forward to the advanced full backs, who - when it works well - can interchange with the wide playing midfielders/forwards in the opponents half, by which time our centre backs and covering defensive midfielders fill in the gaps where necessary if the full backs advance high up the pitch.
In the first few games in RM's 1st season, the crowd often had kittens or were exasperated at the continually (risky, in some eyes...) passing of the ball across our back four just in front of our penalty area as the team became accustomed to the demands of the new manager.
Very quickly, the team adapted, however. RM himself at the time commented how many months it had taken for his Swansea and Wigan teams to adapt, but at Everton the players 'got it' in half a dozen games.
The rest of the season offered some scintillating football, inspirational subs and change of tactics within games which often resulted in turning draws into victories, or at worst, salvaging a point from a losing position. The slow paced and perpetual passing across the backline of early season gave way to sharp, incisive and rapid movement of the ball forward which often cut the opposition to shreds. This generated huge excitement and anticipation for the 2nd season.
Alas, it was largely a damp squid. Having been caught out by Everton the previous season, last season teams learnt to cut off the supply line at source and pushed up high on the full backs and centre backs. This resulted in a return to slow, ponderous sideways passing along our backline, just in front of our penalty area.
Quite often, there was not even a need for the opposition to put a tackle in. Just harass the back line, or deep lying midfielders, who would cough up a pass under pressure and the opposition were immediately through to the heart of our goal with both centre backs and full backs woefully out of position in their default positions to effectively offer any defensive cover.
In the bleak mid winter of last season, the players met with RM and expressed their concerns and asked for a more flexible variation of tactics than they were playing. It resulted in the back four being more compact and aligned, with Barry playing deeper just in front of them and Mcarthy playing a touch further forward. Ross was also encouraged to play more around the 'D' of the opposition penalty area. This had the effect of containing the opposition further away from our goal and stopping them from having a free run through the heart of our defence. Goals against were considerably reduced, even though Howard's form dipped seriously from the previous season. Passing was also more direct, rather than incessant 'tippy-tappy' in areas that did not hurt or threaten the opposition.
This season, to be fair, our best back four has been disrupted by injuries and - in John Stones case - the distraction of the Chelski transfer bid.
Baines has just returned to the side, Jags is a long term absentee and SERIOUSLY missed by the team, I don't care what anyone says about his limitations. He was one of those primarily responsible for turning our fortunes around last season and deservedly won the club's player of the year trophy. Stones and Coleman have also been absent through injury.
Both have individually played reasonably well, but Funes Mori and Galloway and still relative virgins in a very tough league.
That said, our defensive organization has looked mostly shambolic this season, from front to back.
Too often the opposition defenders are not pressurized enough in possession, our midfield is too easily played through, wide men given too much time and room to put crosses in and no strong headers of the ball (or a dominant goalkeeper) at the heart of our defence to clear such threats.
Even though we scored 3 goals against them today, I really admired how the Stoke defence played today. There was a discipline, a firmness, an UNDERSTANDING of their roles which, sadly, seems almost totally absent in Everton's defence.
We are a match for anyone going forward. IMO we have the PL's standout forward in Romelu and two of the best providers to feed him in Ross and Gerard.
Sadly, RM has openly declared "Everton is not set up to prevent goals." And it shows ...
It is becoming an increasing concern that this apparent dereliction of duty by the sitting manager is seriously undermining our season and our ability to achieve the prime objective in professional league football: WIN GAMES!
Unless and until RM shows willing and is capable of achieving a better balance to the benefit of the team and individual players, as he currently sets up the team, we will, I'm sorry to say, continue to concede 2 or 3 goals a game.
Let me close by saying I was thoroughly entertained by today's game. It was an exhibition of top quality football with a cascade of top notch goals. But ... we lost.
And if we continue in this vein, all the fine blossoming footballers now assembled at Everton will soon depart and the promise they offer will be fulfilled at other clubs.
85 Posted 28/12/2015 at 22:15:05
Conversely Everton have only conceded 9 goals away from Goodison in the league which suggests that we can defend when necessary but somehow don't do so to great effect at Goodison. It would be some consolation if we had have conceded a rout scoreline such as Chelsea last season but we haven't it is a constant flow of goals conceded and that has undermined everything positive and points to a struggle to amass points if we lose Lukaku's goalscoring talents.
All the best teams from the past and present are built on defence, Everton are not and no matter who we have in the line-up the problem will continue until a different manager is in place. We'll get away with it this season, next season I'm not so sure.
86 Posted 28/12/2015 at 22:20:54
We need a 4-1-3-2 formation in my opinion and Barkley should be a fluid centre of the 3. He has been playing deeper it is true but he still lacks a clearly defined role for us. I would be happy with any of Barry/McCarthy/ Besic as the defensive midfielder (I would go for Besic but appreciate that is probably not the majority view). I would have played Mirallas behind Lukaku but it is pretty clear he's now going. I do hope we have a suitable option lined up who is not either Naismith or Kone.
it all seems a bit pointless though with Martinez at the helm.
87 Posted 28/12/2015 at 22:29:36
Martinez is unable to see the obvious and by constantly selecting Howard he has damaged the goalkeeper's reputation. Howard will always be remembered as a clown and not a great servant to the club.
Martinez has lost all credibility with the fans. His post match interviews are a total embarrassment. Martinez has a great crop of players but he is unable to make the most of their talent. What do the first team coaches do?
Something has to change soon.
88 Posted 28/12/2015 at 22:33:14
Top players do not like losing and it also eats away at team spirit.
Those that say we have a young team that is still learning have a point but in the context of tactics and preparation they are learning the wrong habits.
This guy has never cut it in the Prem as evidenced by Wigan getting relegated with a record number of goals against. He followed such notable managers as Steve Bruce and got even worse results than them.
I never thought he was good enough for us but now I am totally convinced.
I am sick of feeling like this every week so god knows how the players feel..
Martinez out ASAP.
97 Posted 28/12/2015 at 22:40:42
98 Posted 28/12/2015 at 22:44:33
The board have for years been ineffectual (it's Christmas, so I'm being kind) in everything they do and are now transfixed by the prospect of pocketing mega-bucks in a few weeks rather than doing anything for us fans. From the point of view of most, if not all of them, they'll never give Everton a second thought once they've all got rich and buggered off.
Meanwhile we all still attend every match, maximising the board's revenues, enabling them to ask the max for a buy-out, making it harder for new owners to then develop a better team with a competent manager.
99 Posted 28/12/2015 at 22:46:55
“Yes, it is a recurring theme but one that shows the right path in a way.
“We want to get ourselves in front and therefore you will have to put yourself forward. It is an overall feeling we need to get better in that situation. We know how to protect those leads and make sure we get the return on points.Ă˘â‚¬Âť
“At the moment there is a bigger picture, nobody has got their position safe.
“Everyone is fighting for their starting spot, and it's no different for anyone but we have to get better as a team. The competition for places is always there, there are a lot of games in the next few weeks. There is going to be a lot of completion for places.Ă˘â‚¬Âť
100 Posted 28/12/2015 at 22:51:15
Either way, RM is papering over the cracks with that as an excuse.
101 Posted 28/12/2015 at 22:53:03
We will end up with what we truly deserve. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
102 Posted 28/12/2015 at 22:59:15
Para 2: - We have to be in front and therefore our emphasis is on the attacking side of the game, this creates space for our opponents which they tend to exploit regularly.
Para 3:- There is competition for places, however, the first team picks itself, largely because the quality underneath isn't really good enough and we'll have to do some wheeling and dealing to improve the overall quality of the squad.
Para 4:- I need to do some tinkering in order to evaluate how we can win more games, unfortunately I will end up weakening the team and therefore don't expect to win many more games than we have already, we might lose a few along the way.
All of which doesn't make much more sense than the actual quotes, however, perhaps he is alluding to the possibility of new ownership and from that perspective nothing about the future is assured for anybody presently working for the club?
104 Posted 28/12/2015 at 23:10:02
105 Posted 28/12/2015 at 23:13:28
"According to RM, McCarthy and Cleverley are injured. Said he had to give Marallas and Lennon and Baines a rest after Newcastle"
Why does Lennon & Miralles need a rest when they've been on the bench for most of the season??
106 Posted 28/12/2015 at 23:39:35
18 wins in 57 games. A win rate of just 31.5% is shockingly bad. His win rate at Wigan was just shy of 30%. This man is a fraud and we are going backwards. time after time we see the same mistakes. His in-game management is truly shocking and I'm embarrased that he is allowed to continue to be the manager of Everton.
107 Posted 28/12/2015 at 23:41:20
Galloway had no one ahead of him, where were Naismith and Kone playing?, Martinez is clueless.
108 Posted 28/12/2015 at 00:02:43
On the part of RM deflecting blame. Perhaps there is substance to the buyout and that he's playing for his job now. Unfortunately, I don't see us getting good results any time soon as long as he lets his EGO dictate style over substance.
109 Posted 29/12/2015 at 00:10:48
110 Posted 29/12/2015 at 00:21:14
We now need a latter day Catterick to get a latter day Denis Stevens and Tony Kay.
aka 'The Goldilocks Option'
111 Posted 29/12/2015 at 00:21:32
112 Posted 29/12/2015 at 00:43:39
113 Posted 29/12/2015 at 00:51:08
If we present ourselves as nice and accommodating then do not be at all surprised that we are shat on from a great height. For that, down the ages, is the fate of the nice.
114 Posted 29/12/2015 at 00:55:28
Frankly, Coleman was brought down without the ball being touched by the Stoke player but Seamus had seemingly lost control of it (that is, it would have likely crossed the line before he reached it). The decision against Stones was completely wrong as Stones took the ball.
This becomes a 6 point reversal between the teams if refereed properly.
To lose like this is bad, and to concede so many goals as we do, is poor. However, I can't understand the outpourings about RM on this thread. Yes, Howard is a liability and should be replaced plus we need to add some clout defensively. But is he really that bad?
115 Posted 29/12/2015 at 01:02:29
Martinez needs to go.
116 Posted 29/12/2015 at 01:04:31
Jokes aside, I did not see the Coleman foul and had I seen that, might have agreed that that the Stones foul should not be given.
All I want to say is that this does not mask our issue. We can't defend. We are too vulnerable and require a top notch GK (who Howard is no longer) to bail us out. Is this because the back 4 is too young? I do not believe so. As someone mentioned of us playing 2 DMs, our setup is not pure offense but how that made us concede so many, only GOD knows because RM sure as hell doesn't!
117 Posted 29/12/2015 at 01:27:26
Cleverley and McCarthy are also asked to help out in the attacking third.
Note that those two players set up two of Everton's three goals, so that leaves Funes Mori and Stones with purely defensive duties which means there are whole swathes of the pitch unattended and many of the 'defensive' players have to chase back to retrieve any given situation. In the end it comes down to the 'team' ethic which is supposedly good at Goodison but whilst we attack as a team, we don't seem to defend as a team.
Everton need four out-and-out defenders whose primary and, in my opinion, only job should be to break up opponents' attacks and give the players further up the pitch the ball.
I also think that RM's style has a detrimental effect on all departments of the team but in particular the defenders because as they tire they lose concentration they make mistakes. They don't have a minute's rest or respite during most matches as they are constantly involved in all aspects of the game, but the opposition defenders do have periods of rest and time to regain their composure as do our forward players who don't work as hard most of the time on closing down the opponents defenders.
119 Posted 29/12/2015 at 02:13:49
All this is about selling the club. I just watched Creed and our club badge is all over that film – the stadium being used, fans singing, it says the word Everton and the mighty Goodison Park.
Do you think they headhunted Tony Bellew or do you think this is a stunt to get noticed and sold to a America billionaire? We're a business - BK and the board need this club sold. As for today, shocking. Stones isn't the player we all think he is.
120 Posted 29/12/2015 at 03:03:31
So back to reality, Martinez's job is safe regardless if blue Bill sells or not.
Our season is over AGAIN before the new year. Even if we managed to somehow beat city over two legs do you seriously think we could beat either the Rs or Stoke in the final. This team Martinez has built has no winning mentality. Too many lost games prove that
We're stuck with Martinez until the end of the season. Longer even if we have new owners come Feb as they might give him another season to assess the situation.
Gareth Barry was brilliant again last night but must feel he is wasting his time playing out of his skin for Roberto, time for the senior players to revolt like they did last season.
The players never suffer half as bad as the fans after a game like that.
121 Posted 29/12/2015 at 03:59:30
Hey, he brought all his backroom staff with him and still preaches fine margins as we ship record numbers of goals against.
122 Posted 29/12/2015 at 07:57:53
The defending was sickening. Coleman more concerned with being hit by the ball as he slowed down and allowed the cross. Stones, who is not a favourite of mine, completely clueless off the ball as he waves to his team-mates. One of the slowest young CBs I've ever seen, especially on the turn. Bojan thanked him for the extra space and made him look like a pensioner. Even on the ball, his passing was dreadful.
Whether this lad is carrying an injury or not will remain a mystery. With Browning and Jags out and no experienced backup, we're pretty desperate back there.
Not too worried about the lads up front, especially the superb Lukaku. Cleverley for Kone would be ideal plus a fit Jags and McCarthy.
People baying for Besic should remember that, against Newcastle, he couldn't get above walking pace.
Yes, Martinez seems to be sticking with his philosophy and has created a better class Wigan. It's hard to take but a fully fit rirst XI would be very competitive and slightly less vunerable at the back.......and no, I wouldn't have Stones for a big clock. Okay, he's only 21, but will his legs move any quicker when he's 22?
123 Posted 29/12/2015 at 08:00:31
To Martinez's credit, we now have a squad which we can believe in (lack of goalie and influential number 10 notwithstanding), and nobody ever accused Everton of under-achieving under OFM.
For God's sake, we're behind Leicester, Crystal Palace, West Ham, Watford and now Stoke. Did that ever happen with Moyes? (Possibly, but only briefly and not because of crap defending.) I'm not saying I want Moyes back, I just want someone who can enable this team to reach its potential.
"I'll get you in the Champion's League in 4 years", he said - fat chance of that if we can ship 4 goals at home to Stoke City. Sooo depressing...
124 Posted 29/12/2015 at 08:18:59
My big worry is that Martinez will let Naismith and Mirallas go in January, removing our second- and third-best goalscoring potential. Then, if our current decline continues, at the end of the season, it's plain that Lukaku will want out, as will Stones and maybe more. Why would they want to play for a team that in all likelihood is destined for a finish in the bottom half of the table?
Meanwhile, Martinez continues to pick his favourites, Howard and Kone every week. Howard is now statistically the most error-prone top goalkeeper in the Premier League and, apart from three or four games in which he flattered to deceive, Kone has showed himself to be as slow and ineffective as we all believed he was prior to this season.
The above scenarios fill me with dread for the future of our team, who admittedly can play some very pretty football, but who seem to lack backbone and any cohesive defensive ability. Howard's flap at the cross for the third goal yesterday was worse than anything I've seen on a Sunday league pitch, yet still Martinez defends him.
If BK truly loves Everton, as he would have us believe, he must take action to rid us of this charlatan who is nothing but a novice out of his depth at best, or a complete egotistical, arrogant idiot at worst. He is totally out of his depth in the Premier League, and we are heading for a repeat of his relegation season with Wigan unless action is taken to halt our decline.
Liverpool were in a much better position than us when they fired Rodgers so why is Martinez allowed to carry on driving us into the basement of the league?
125 Posted 29/12/2015 at 08:38:19
First season apart he has been a pig-headed moron who will not listen to the thoughts of anyone else. We are going nowhere with this man & his shitty coaching staff. Hopefully when (or if) we get new owners, they will have bigger balls than the shithouses we have on our board now & kick his arse all the way back to Spain.
The man is way out of his depth here, as Moyes was at Man Utd. We will get nowhere near the top 6 never mind the top 4 under this man, it is blatantly obvious. We are in big danger of losing our better players to teams who will challenge for honours.
He needs to try and get the fans back on his side because he has lost most of them now. He needs to drop Howard now just to show people that he isn't frightened to make changes. You cannot continue to pick a keeper who is way past his best, he is costing us dear.The players in front of him must be shitting themselves everytime they see him between the sticks. He is garbage.
I would rather see the team grind out crappy one-nil wins as Arsenal and Liverpool used to than go all gung ho and lose to the likes of Stoke albeit that they are a well-drilled side... Something we are definitely not!
126 Posted 29/12/2015 at 09:24:18
127 Posted 29/12/2015 at 09:40:29
We won't get bought out. We won't buy anyone in January, but we will sell players. We will finish around 10th, our best players will leave, and then it's a sad decline again. Thanks for destroying my holiday Everton.
128 Posted 29/12/2015 at 10:17:14
131 Posted 29/12/2015 at 11:48:39
To be so lax in defence is crazy and a complete dereliction of duty. Where does he think he is....some no mark club where he can play around with his team and think the fans will accept any old shit? As others have pointed out, the balance is just all wrong. One DM who actually knows his job is all that is required alongside a back 4 who actually know what they are doing. Its pretty obvious there is no defensive coaching going on as they all get in each others way. Alongside the back 4 there was Barry, McCarthy/Cleverly and Barkley was so deep also. Even with all those players Stoke still scored 4! Get a cohesive back 4 with someone sitting just in front and that really should be enough. Even Moyes realised that. Too many cooks etc. Nobody has any clear idea of their defensive roles and the sloppy play yet again when passing the ball across the back 4 just has your heart in your moth. There is just no need to mes around that much at the back. It just invites pressure.
However, it has become increasingly clear that this guy is never going to learn and it is going to be at the detriment of our once great club. Sad thing is nobody at the club will do anything and we, the fans are left suffering with an idiot manager at the helm who is dragging our club one way, downwards.
132 Posted 29/12/2015 at 12:12:42
That's what RM said, David.
I agree with you, why would he need to give Marallas, Lennon and Baines a rest?
133 Posted 29/12/2015 at 12:19:34
Am I right in saying that's 3, THREE wins at Goodison all year. Relegation form which is a ludicrous statement when you look at the quality in the side.
134 Posted 29/12/2015 at 13:53:43
I'm going against the grain and sticking with him to put it right because I believe we could have a very bright future if he only sorted out the conceding goals.
His stubbornness could be his own undoing and I'll have zero sympathy for him if he goes, if it is down to his reluctance to change or address the issues holding us back from becoming a top side, then that will be his own doing.
Clearly Howard needs replacing, and we need to tighten up as a team and at obviously at the back.
These aren't easy things to address mid - season.
He said in a recent press conference (and I agree with him) that managers aren't given enough time anymore to address and find solutions to problems, due to social media.
In this day and age, Moyes would have been gone after that 17th place finish.
I hope that the current Everton board give Martinez the summer to address the keeper and defensive problems, and give him at least 6 months of the following season.
He can either look to address the defence himself, which I don't think is a good idea as it's not his forte, or he can bring in a respected defence coach to solely look to address this.
If Martinez doesn't bring someone in and this doesn't change then he will, have nobody to blame but himself, an ego and stubbornness.
As I've said before the best managers delegate to other coaches where they are not strong, identifying where their own weakness are and bringing something that is strong in that area is what makes them great managers.
Martinez must now do the same in the summer - it's his own lookout if he does not.
Rugby is light years ahead of football, as far as coaching and annals is goes and they've compartmentalised coaching for a long time with defence and attack coaches etc.
We had a problem last season with backward and sideways passing, we were pedestrian and lacked dynamism going forward, Martinez has done a complete 360 on that problem, he's changed that and made us one of the best and most potent attacking teams in the EPL in the following season.
I think he should be given next season to the address the issues of this season, if he doesn't then it'll be down to his own stubbornness and an ego and he will have nobody to blame but himself, and he'll lose the support of even his most ardent supporters.
135 Posted 29/12/2015 at 14:18:07
If we don't make Europe, then we won't have the same attackers next season.
136 Posted 29/12/2015 at 14:36:16
Personally I don't think we will hold on to Lukaku. He has been with us three seasons and there has been no improvement in our fortunes despite his goal scoring feats. I've no doubt big clubs offering massive salaries will be in for him. Stones will also be gone for the same reasons. No doubt we will have a lot of money to spend on replacements but do you really trust Martinez to spend it wisely?
Remember the only real success he has had in the transfer market has been Lukaku and to an extent Deulofeu who will no doubt return to Barca for a snip.. Of his Wigan contingent Kone-failure, Robles-failure, Alcaraz-failure, McCarthy-average. Cleverley-jury still out. The likes of Mirallas, Barkley and Stones were already at the club when he arrived. So his record his hardly sparkling.
I think should we get a new wealthy owner his first order of business will be to bin RM and bring in a new charismatic manager who can attract big name players and not just disgruntled youngsters with potential.
137 Posted 29/12/2015 at 15:13:28
138 Posted 29/12/2015 at 16:37:01
140 Posted 29/12/2015 at 17:31:05
It appears sloppy defending is nothing new to Martinez.
141 Posted 29/12/2015 at 17:38:59
Robles hasn't had a proper chance so you are a bit quick with him as you are with McCarthy who is better than average for the game he is asked to play.
Cleverly is a good signing - no fee don't forget.
I have just said on another thread I genuinely believe we would have more points had Robles been our keeper the last 6 or 7 games or so.
I do agree with you regards Lukaku, no doubt in my mind he will be off and it wouldn't surprise me if it even happened in January.
How we will replace him I don't know, good strikers are hard to find and every team is after them.
142 Posted 29/12/2015 at 17:56:39
McCarthy doesn't score enough. What two goals in three 2.5 seasons. Although to be fair I could say the same for most of our midfield players. Barry, Besic, Gibson, have not managed half a dozen goals between them.
Funny. You would think with a squad so heavy with defensive midfielders we would concede far less goals than we do.
143 Posted 29/12/2015 at 18:09:06
Some scary reading...
"(Yesterday) was the FOURTEENTH time Everton have conceded three or more goals in 95 Premier League matches under Martinez (that's once every 6.78 games...) The same happened just seven times in Moyes' final 136 Premier League matches in charge."
144 Posted 29/12/2015 at 18:24:41
That's the trouble with stats you can often use them to suit any argument.
For instance would you be interested to know that under Moyes we conceded three goals or more 20 times in his first 95 games?
That's once every 4.25 games!!
145 Posted 29/12/2015 at 18:28:33
"By this stage of the season I felt that we needed to be seeing more consistent performances, which would naturally translate into better results."
Sounds strangely relevant? The Notts County chairman having just sacked his manager....
146 Posted 29/12/2015 at 19:06:15
Look what happened. We avoided relegation by the skin of our teeth.
The attacking fullback no longer works. Everyone plays counter attack these days so you can't afford to be caught with your two fullbacks in the opposing final third. You have to keep cover at the back.
As soon as we went in front RM should have thrown another DM (not like we didn't have any on the bench) on. Gone to 4-5-1 and run down the final ten minutes. But no let's keep attacking that's a much better idea.
If you are losing you attack but if you are winning, especially with a few minutes left, you defend. The players might need to learn this. But so does Martinez. As a manager he has to be procative. He can't afford to stand there with his fingers crossed hoping for the best.
147 Posted 29/12/2015 at 19:07:28
You're probably right about the players leaving, but it was this manager that brought these players in, and if Stones and Rom are sold it will be for a huge fee - close to £90m in total I would assume.
Identifying and bringing in players of sheer quality has not been Martinez's or his scouts problem in his time here, so I have little concerns that the money would be wisely spent.
Whether Martinez stays or goes - that problem (those players leaving will remain) - unless new owners can change their minds, so we are left in the same situation.
If Martinez stays and spends the money wisely (as he has done to date) then we are left in the same situation - can he address the defensive issues, I would has said previously give him the summer to do so, whilst the following 6 months.
He has addressed the problem last season, so lets see if he can address the following one, if not then he goes, but he deserves the opportunity to do so for me, as he has shown from last season that he can learn and change - last year back, sideways to this year - attacking at pace, with dynamism and far more direct.
148 Posted 29/12/2015 at 19:16:10
However for all his limitations, he does his midfield enforcer job fairly well. Besic I think will be better all round than McCarthy if we can hold on to him, but he is another guy who wants to play week in week out.
You could see how Everton has touched him when Cleverley scored at Newcastle. I think Barkley will be that goal scoring midfielder eventually.
149 Posted 29/12/2015 at 19:22:52
We have only beaten teams in the bottom half of the table or non Prem teams this season that is all the statistics you need to want this fella out.
Wigan were easy on the eye look where they have ended up.
150 Posted 29/12/2015 at 20:16:01
A valid point Graham, only ... I think the respective quality of the squads Moyes and Roberto inherited should also be taken into consideration when assessing their first 95 league games with the club.
For example, in the 6 seasons before Moyes joined, our goals against read 57, 56, 47, 49, 59, 57 = 325.
In the 6 (Moyes) seasons before RM joined the goals against numbered 33, 37, 49, 45, 40, 40 = 244.
That's 81 less goals, or an average over 6 seasons of 13.5 goals per season.
In the 23 complete seasons of the PL to date, Everton's average goals FOR is 49 and goals AGAINST 47.
Excluding the RM's 2 full seasons, Moyes was responsible for raising the medium in the goals FOR column and lowering the goals AGAINST. In his 11 full seasons with us he bettered the 23 year club average of goals scored 7 times, hit the average goals for in his first season and was below average in only seasons 2, 3 and 4.
As you would expect, Moyes bettered the historical goals against average in 10 of his 11 seasons, only going over the top in his 2nd season.
RM, by contrast, is all-square on these numbers. Over and below average in his 1st season, the 61 goals we scored was only bettered by Joe Royle's 6th placed side with 64 goals in 1995-96. Equally impressive was the 39 goals we conceded in RM's 1st season, our 4th best in the PL only bettered 3 times by Moyes.
Then we have last season's below average 48 goals scored and 50 conceded, putting them in the top 10 and top 8 WORST returns in their respective categories.
A simple and totally unscientific and invalid equation to make, but ... if we doubled our current goals for and against tallies as they now stand at exactly the half way point of the season, we will finish the season with a PL record high of goals scored of 70 and a near record high of goals conceded of 56.
Make of that what you will!
151 Posted 29/12/2015 at 20:37:29
Top marks for research, I was maybe being mischievous.
I don't think it takes either stats or being the proverbial rocket scientist to realise that
A) on the whole Moyes set his sides up to be better defensively
B) Martinez sets his sides up to score more goals
I think the real question is will Martinez be capable of adapting his team to build on the undoubted quality to turn that into a winning side. I'm not sure personally, I think he is wedded to his 'philosophy'.
But I still believe he deserves some time.
152 Posted 29/12/2015 at 21:05:26
Like you, I feel that whilst stats can be informative (or misleading, depending how they are presented!) and fun, it only tells part of the story.
Your own eyes, and ears (on comments emanating from the club ... manager ... players) all contribute to prima facie evidence on the state of things.
Personally, I continue to bewildered how we didn't build on and kick on from RM's 1st season. There really was a sense of sin miedo about the manager, his tactics, his telling and timely substitutions. Now, he is far more reserved and conservative and is not showing the same innovation as in his debut season.
I honestly do not put much stock in his media comments as many are inclined to do. Having said that, in recent weeks he has given disgruntled supporters many a stick to beat him with. Just 48 hours on from telling us 'lessons learned,' we get yesterday's late capitulation against Stoke.
Yesterday, with his comments about Clattenberg, is the first time his personae and eternally cheerful and positive disposition has cracked in his Everton career to date. Is this evidence he is also beginning the feel the heat and the growing wrath of the exasperated fan base?
And as an aside, personally, I think passing the blame to the ref for yesterday's loss as he the manager and some posters have attempted is NOT were the fault lies. It was not a singular failing against Stoke alone this season. There is a whole succession of failings from dominant, winning positions.
January transfer window opening soon ... rumours of serious takeover bids ... quality young players itching to test themselves at the highest club level.
Who knows how the soap opera that is Everton will play out over the coming months..?
And STILL tune in to endure the latest episode each week. Only ... it WOULD be nice to have a happy ending now and again rather than a heart breaking cliff hanger every week!
153 Posted 29/12/2015 at 21:29:55
154 Posted 29/12/2015 at 23:09:42
I love attacking football, but this is a gung ho attacking style that has no place in 80mins of the 90 of a premier league game.
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