David Moyes labels second half against Sunderland “abysmal”, calls for more consistency

I find it hard to believe that he is laying the abysmal tag on the players, when he and Irvine saw what we all saw, that Sunderland pressed harder up the pitch and they did nothing to combat that.

What is the point in bringing on Charly Alcaraz and Tim Iroegbunam in the 83rd minute when the previous 60 have been appalling?

Our one-dimensional approach to every game, expecting different results, is what got Dyche the sack. The Beto and Barry debate has raged for weeks: neither look anywhere near Premier League standard but both play in some part every week.

The decision-making in the transfer and loan market (apart from Jack Grealish) has quite frankly been appalling.

Changes need to be made: try Jack down the middle where he was his most effective at Aston Villa.

Odds on the team selection for the Fulham game, anyone?

I think that bringing McNeil on was up there with the cretinous Martinez against Southampton.

Bringing Moyes back for a contract longer than six months was mad. He has stolen a living off Everton and is just as complicit as Kenwright.

Moyes might not be the greatest manager around, but some of you guys would give Pep a hard time if he was Everton's manager -- and what is worrying, most of you don't have a clue about football management.

You just like a moan, you probably moan about your next door neighbours, your doctor, the hospital and anything you don't agree with.

Some of you need to grow up or shut up.

Some of these fans will have spent many years, a lot of money and tears supporting their team. Surely it's okay to point out the manager's flaws and his constant "not my fault" comments? It's no different to people blindly supporting Moyes, but apparently that's okay?

Just as Moyes got a tune out of the same players Dyche couldn't, I suspect a different manager could do the same with the players Moyes is criticising. No harm pointing that out.

I'm just shocked, given how trigger happy TFG have been elsewhere, that he is still in this job.

But unfortunately he deserves criticism at the moment. Bit like most people in their jobs.

Nasty, smug little post.

But Xhaka ran the show in the 2nd half, and Iroegbunam or Röhl should have been on before the hour mark to shore up midfield. And when did McNeil ever play as a right-winger?

You don't need to know too much about ‘football management' to see that. Telling ToffeeWeb members to shut up or grow up is definitely out of context and makes little sense!

You can't sink much lower.

When he was manager of Sunderland, instead of acquiring young fresh talent, he opted to sign:

Darron Gibson
Bryan Oviedo
Joleon Lescott
Steven Pienaar
Victor Anichebe

Ex-Everton players all well past it.

That tells you all you need to know about him.

Oh yeah, they were relegated also.

The side we put out last night is the same as we played earlier in the season. Yet our goal came from the individual skill of Ndiaye rather than a team effort.

All those signings in the summer... but the only ones we see on a regular basis are Grealish and Dewsbury-Hall. Barry gets the odd appearance but Dibling and Anzou barely get a look in at all.

Yet Dibling, Anzou and Barry cost the club £70M + between them. So why aren't they on the pitch more regularly?

Particularly Dibling, since he was a regular in the Southampton side last season. So they can hardly say he has no Premier League experience. Dibling was on the bench last night but Moyes used McNeil instead.

I just feel there is something going on and we're not being told about it. But until whatever it is gets sorted out, we will continue to struggle.

I agree with you as far as “Sadly, Everton…”

You should write an update on that book, "How to Win Friends and Influence People".

As far as I can see, it is the players automatically go to default defence after taking a lead and drop far too deep, no doubt encouraged by Keane, Tarkowski and Pickford.

Barry was regularly found in his own half, so we had no forward outlet and resorted to long boots up the pitch.

To me, this is a lack of confidence and coaching so, although I am certainly not in the Moyes Out camp, he is part of the problem currently.

I ask the same question as others: when Dewsbury-Hall tired notably because he was running around like a headless chicken, why not bring Röhl on??

Why bring McNeil, who is not match fit and as slow as hell, on to replace Ndiaye when we have Alcaraz and Dibling raring to get an opportunity???

Barry's head dropped visibly when he missed that golden chance; why let him carry on? Make a change!!

To the whole team: when we take a lead, go for the throat while we have the momentum and the home crowd is discontent.

It's all very well saying we were shite for 60 minutes... do something about it!. The away fans were singing for Charly Alcaraz with 30 minutes to go but Moyes gives the lad 5 minutes.

It's so obvious in every game a Premier League team will dominate our midfield as soon as we stop passing it and resorting to percentage play.

Our whole system is built around Dewsbury-Hall. Like the last couple of years, it's been Doucoure. If Dewsbury-Hall plays well, we play well; if not, we get overrun.

Moyes has plenty of options across midfield, he should be changing things. Our best 2 players are wingers so get the ball to both of them asap and then get it back asap once we lose it.

John @6.

When you say 'Everton' you do mean "we" don't you? It makes you sound like you're not a fan.

When I talk about other teams, I refer to them by their name. When I talk about the Blues, it's "us" or "we".

I doubt some of the Summer acquisitions were Moyes's. He's not yet convinced by some of them. Maybe never will be. I'm not sure who scouted Barry, but I'd like to know.

Were we a club who could invest in players for a few years time when we needed players on the pitch now…?

We've just lashed out £40M on him! And so this reveals these aren't his players. So then you wonder, which are his players? Dewsbury-Hall, Grealish. And so we've got £100M of players that the manager doesn't rate.

What a total cock up. And I'm not putting all the blame on Moyes, I fear this transfer committee has left it's mark on us already.

Don't let a Sunderland supporter hear you call him a “Jordie”!

He's a Mackem he's a Blue
He's a Toffee through and through
He hates the Toon
He hates the Shite
Jordan Pickford is Dynamite.

Maybe I should have said Georgies. That would really get them going.

I've never seen a football team before collapse so quickly when controlling a game as we do; it's not a one-off thing either.

It would be interesting to see what our points tally, goal return in the for and against column was at this time last season because it was around early November that it very quickly unravelled for Sean Dyche.

You must be the person who taught Pep, Ferguson, Klopp, Slot, Carlo and all the great managers all they know about management. Well done, mate!

How about dealing with it instead of winging? Change and adapt. Drop the shite strikers for a start. Pickford up front would do a better job.

Other managers find a solution. Moyes is stuck in 2004.

I don't see him being here next season. Ditto Grealish, who's love affair with the club seems to be slipping.

And he decides, because we've a few players away in Africa, that it is a great time to play a C-team and throw that cup too.

Midfield was non-existent in the second-half, both full-backs were awful, along with Tarkowski, Gana and McNeil when he came on.

Why not try Alcaraz up front, put Dibling and Röhl on?

John, we have some of the best supporters in the country who have every right to moan about that performance. What do you want them to do? Clap them and say "Well done, boys" for that awful performance?

We have McNeil for left-midfield cover who can track back and defend and again for me Patterson would make a decent right-midfielder. We have Röhl to fill in when Alcaraz tires and either Gana or Tim if/when we want to be a bit more defensive. Beto scores most of his goals with his feet so stop hoofing it up to him.

As for Barry...? Next...

Many forget that Moyes, when chasing a match down 1-0 or 2-1, would bring in Johnny Heitinga for Phil Neville at defensive midfield.

That's the type of manager he is and why it was time for him to go the last time around. He hasn't really changed at all but Dycheball was so turgid and unimaginative that any change would have been an improvement.

But going forward? Moyes won't get us into the top half.

The thing is, Toffee Web is not representative of the Everton fanbase, the views expressed here are way more negative. It can be utterly depressing reading the ranting and 'told you so' posts after a bad or average result.

John Williams's comment is a response to that and I get where he's coming from. It's fine to have a moan about Everton, but many of the posts offer zero balance or context and come across like an opinion piece about asylum seekers in the Daily Mail.

Last night is a good example. We're told Barry's miss was 'ludicrous' and cost us the game. That is patently not true. A poor overall performance by the manager and entire team cost us 3 points. Barry's miss didn't help; however, a number of other players didn't turn up.

That said we came away with a point against a team currently in the top four. Not the end of the world really, but let's not let that get in the way of another moan-fest, lads.

All the reasons as above... except John, who got the wrong end of the stick.

I'd be on the lookout now for the next manager. Moyes's contract is for this season and one more. I'd be looking to change next summer but, if the owners have an idea of who they want and they are available before then, I think we should just do it.

Moyes is definitely not going to go beyond his current contract, so as long as we think we're not in danger of relegation, it makes sense to put the long-term plan in place as soon as the opportunity arises.

To be clear, this is not a “Moyes Out”, ‘He has to go now' type post, but we should be looking beyond him and identifying the right long-term person.

Moyes is showing all of his known weaknesses at the moment and showing no signs of learning and developing. Not too surprising for a 62-year-old really.

As others have said, McNeil as a right winger makes no footballing sense. And when your team is regularly struggling, why leave your substitutions until the very end of the game?

Hopefully we will see a team that can play for the full 90 minutes on Saturday, as 30 minutes of nice football is clearly not winning us many matches.

You have options; please don't be afraid to use them, and don't openly criticise your players as we believe you are as much at fault as some of them are.

Ndiaye showed how a good center-forward scores goals and yet we continue to use the B&B duo who have shown again and again that they are not up to the task.

I really thought that we would try something different this time. If he doesn't change the tactics soon, we will unfortunately be on the managerial merry-go-around again.

100% true that TW can be negative, but I do feel that aligns with what we see from the club.

For negativity, I read disappointment, particularly when our new dawn turned out to be a bit of a wet fizzle.

Moyes is not the problem, but he is a symptom of the problem. You cannot have a new dawn if you roll back 13 years.

The owners, the new infrastructure is basically delivering the same old turge and Moyes is, rightly or wrongly, the face and voice of that for a lot of us.

He is like Kathy Bates in Misery. Thinks he's nursing us back to health but really he's just stopping us from moving.

If you don't mind me saying, you have totally contradicted yourself when you say you agree with John Williams, and then say “a poor overall performance from the manager and the entire team cost us 3 points”.

John is saying we haven't a clue about football management, but you've just criticised Moyes as well for last night?

You ain't got Kenwright to save you now, Davey!!

Firstly, supporters do not choose a football club's manager. Yes, they can get them sacked, they can also chase an Everton player down the road, giving him abuse.

They can make a manager's life a misery and drive them out. They can destroy the relationship of one of our best players of the last 40 years, Graeme Sharp, because he was a Kenwright supporter.

If anyone does not think the above are crap supporters, then you need to have a long look in the mirror.

They were following your instructions!

Unless of course he is either dithering too much or a complete duffus!

I think TFG should think about paying the £5M and get on with preserving some transfer values. Moyes will not add value to any of our acquisitions.

Yet Moyes has picked him regularly in his starting XI and rarely even subbed him, so I am not sure what Moyes sees and I don't.

After a stunning 25 minutes where we played as well as we have done for a while, even though I don't remember Dewsbury-Hall contributing to much.

Then Sunderand took over for the next 60 minutes. Xhaxa ran the game and Gana could not shut him down. At that point, I thought it was crying out for Röhl to come into midfield and someone going off. But despite 4 subs, Röhl did not appear. Was he injured or is he not trusted by Moyes?

Moyes let his emotions factor into hauling Barry off 56 minutes after what had been his best performance despite missing a sitter, and on came Beto who did his normal thing.

Barry's determination won and kept the ball for Ndiaye to score his magnificent goal -- forgotten clearly by Moyes.
So tactically I think Moyes didn't trust his team after it was 1-1 and was quite happy to take a point.

From what I have seen of Röhl, I think he has a lot to offer the team in that Number 10 position and put Dewsbury-Hall on the bench.

But don't get me started about McNeil coming on which was a strange choice and all Moyes said was he has been training well. I'm sure all of the team are training well.

Was it to shut him up for complaining and Moyes saying, "Show me what you can do"? Dyche got the best out of McNeil by trusting him -- something Moyes clearly does not.

So Moyes is coming up to almost a year in charge and, yes, things are better... but is that all we can expect from The Friedkin Group? Positions between 10th and 14th after investing their money is surely not good enough.

Moys is obstinate and clearly believes he knows best, so don't dare question him. Have you seen his attitude to pre-match conferences? Very dismissive!

So come on, Mr Friedkin, get your finger out!

Last night's match was a good 3 hours minimum travel regardless of what mode was used. This on a Monday evening when many have to go to work the next day, not getting 'home' till the early hours. They have put the effort in, it's not a lot to expect the same in return.

Now Moyes was totally culpable yesterday of poor team selection and even worse timing, and personnel used in substitutions. That game was 'winnable' last night -- especially after we led for a long period.

So let's name the guilty and hopefully shame them too; if they 'do one', there are more fish in the sea!

I regularly defend Moyes because I think he's done a good job of getting us to this point (and some of the bile on here is crazy). But last night was baffling.

It's hard to disagree with posts about his failure to change things in the 2nd half, or him bringing Barry off (in under an hour!). I was going nuts.

It will be very interesting to see who starts on Saturday.

The subs especially were a joke.

No contest!

I don't think Mykolenko and O'Brien even attempted a single overlap. This is the manager's instructions. McNeil wide right was a head scratcher. Square pegs, round holes 2.0.

He coaches scared. He'd rather not lose than win.

The search for answers, and a complete Everton performance, goes on.

He won a nice knockdown for Garner's early chance, put in a crunching challenge to help Ndiaye win the ball on his goal, moved well and had some nice touches. To my eyes he looked comfortable for the first time. He was clearly shattered by the miss and had to come off, but to name him postgame was unpardonable by Moyes.

Also, I'd like to point out a weakness that's worse than striker or right back in my view. We have two midfielders who repeatedly lose the ball (or give it away) in vulnerable positions that allow instant counterattacks. And two is one too many. Dewsbury-Halland Gana simply cannot be on the pitch at the same time right now. Dewsbury-Hall is no Number 10 and must either be benched or moved back into Gana's Number 6 position.

I believe the ever-aggressive Charly Alcaraz is the best choice for Number 10 but I'm open to arguments on that one.

I think ToffeeWeb combined to write a very similar report as Paddy Boyland's so I think quite a few on here would agree with him.

One thing Boyland didn't mention -- and I don't think anybody else has either -- was Moyes's very surprising choice of Iroegbunam off the bench instead of Röhl.

But I thought young Tim was excellent, with a couple of fine touches and an absolute peach of a tackle, so unlike Moyes's other choices, that one worked out well.

It is ironic that McNeil lost his place -- and since then his confidence -- after being subbed off last season various times after giving the ball away in the middle. His replacement, Dewsbury-Hall, as you point out, is guilty of the same thing.

But unlike McNeil or indeed Alcaraz, Dewsbury-Hall has offered nothing in terms of assists or goals to offset his profligacy. The guy needs to offer something.

Moreover, as Number 10, his main function should be on scoring or creating goals. I don't understand why Moyes keeps shoehorning him into that role, especially with those around him.

The yellow card won't have done him any favours, so I suspect that played into the reason he was taken off -- more than the miss.

I think there is an issue as to whether we go with more technical players rather than some of the 'athletes' we have. We need a more technical play that's greater than passing it back to Pickford.

Ian #57, very good point on the yellow card. Moyes may well have been concerned he'd get a second. Thanks.

Interesting stat I read yesterday: Niasse is the most prolific scorer we have had since Lukaku based on goals per minutes.

I agree with almost all of that article, but nobody is ever going to convince me we miss Doucoure.

These guys get 1 chance a game between them. 1 glaring chance, but still.

The only person who destroyed Sharp's relationship with the supporters was himself.

The usual Moyes performance one would expect in such a game as this, where a good result would be pulled off, did not materialise.

Moyes now has run his course and has lost the dressing room. Gone is any hope that his glass ceiling can be broken. Now, Everton will struggle to finish mid-table.

Jerome gets a 👍 from me.

He can protect the ball, pick a pass, beat a man, he is two-footed and has the awareness to know what is going on all over the pitch. Plus he can draw a foul if need be.

Playing him in the middle gets him closer to Ndiaye who I would play on the left and, for heaven's sake, start Dibling, who is a right winger, on his right.

I have berated Barry on here but I felt sorry for the lad when Moyes hooked him. He did play an important part in Ndiaye's goal, and he won quite a few aerial duels. His hold-up play is better than Beto's.

There was a chance for Moyes to boost the lad's confidence by saying "Okay, son, you missed a sitter but you are playing better and you are going to finish the game -- don't get a second yellow!"

Now for the midfield. The saying remains true: a good big yin will always beat a good little yin. From what I have seen of both Röhl and Iroegbunam in their brief cameos, I would start both of them on either side of Garner -- who, by the way, is developing into a top player.

I'd have to go to a back three (oops I tried to squeeze an extra player in but caught the edit just in time) and this is how I would set us up:-

Pickford
O'Brien Tarkowski Keane
Röhl Garner Iroegbunam
Dibling Grealish Ndiaye
Barry

If I am an opposition player coming out to face that team, I'm thinking “There are no easy touches in that lot”. It's the land of the giants at the back and three very technical players in front of them -- who are able to provide the service the centre-forward needs.

First, Grealish may have Number 10-style skills, but he's not a Number 10 by instinct. Watch him. He automatically, naturally gravitates to the flanks. He doesn't move to the middle to receive the ball. He moves outside.

Both he and Moyes say the manager has given him complete freedom, but he still listens to his instincts and stays out of the middle.

Second, I'm pretty sure Moyes is not going to switch to a back three, because that requires speed across the backline, and we don't have it, at least not until Jarrad gets back next year.

Agree with you on Garner. His growth has been impressive.

“I can play all positions in midfield, but I'd say my strongest point is probably in box-to-box, Number 8,” the 27-year-old said.

“But wherever the gaffer wants me, I'll do my best. That's all I'll do for the Club. Yeah, whether that's playing as most advanced (midfielder) then I will keep trying to work on my game to help do things for the team and whether it's a bit deeper, then, I'll do that.”

His ball security might not have been great in the last few matches, but it is better than Doucoure's whose main strengths were stamina and pressing.

I am not keen on Garner and Gueye together, as they both tend to sit deep right in front of a low block defence. Therefore, I would prefer to see Garner at Number 6, Dewsbury-Hall at Number 8 and Alcaraz at Number 10. Give Gueye a rest as he looks gassed right now.

I also include the Liverpool game. I thought it better to cut to the chase, rather than blame any player, and address the real problem.

Moyes won't or is unable to develop the young players that joined Everton in the Summer, though some of them with some experience of the Premier League elsewhere have been able to perform, but others who have not have had a shattering experience.

Moyes's tactics are anti-football, so a player who was coached to play football well will have a problem, even with experience.

Moyes did well to start with, but he got rid of the footballing play from midfield of attacking the centre and maybe even players with that expertise. Even now, he is not allowing players who have the expertise to play that way, playing a deeper reactive formation. Moyes Mk Il at the moment is not even as good as Moyes Mk l.

I don't know about the emoji, it may be divisive. I would prefer opinions expressed, it allows arguement to be teased out and a overall opinion developed going forward, not necessarily agreeing with mine. It is all good.

I do think the midfield needs beefing up and feel pretty sure those three wouldn't be over-run or out-muscled. That means Gana and Dewsbury-Hall go to the bench.

Reluctantly, I'd drop Dibling from that line-up but keep Grealish and Ndiaye close together.

On Grealish. Pep has said Grealish can play as a Number 10. I am not a big fan of Pep but his record and technical know-how speaks for itself.

I do like Alcaraz but I am not sure he is ready at this stage to be given the responsibility as the Number 10.

So for me it boils down to, if Dewsbury-Hall or Alcaraz are not the answer as the Number 10, in what position does Jack Grealish most benefit the team?

If you disagree, then say why... Or do you just sit in the corner of the pub all on your own, maybe even by choice?

The manager comes out blaming the players and highlights one in particular but doesn't seem to think that having some say in players bought, almost total responsibility for team selection both before and during the game, analyzing opposition tactics and setting out our own playing style for this particular game in an overall style of play has anything to do with on-field performance but still picks up his pay packet.

Some thoughts by the manager might be better voiced behind closed doors and in press briefings be more general and less specific or even just the bleedin' vague, obvious one liner, "We could have done better as we did for so much of the game and come away with all 3 points". And when asked about specific players, say, Barry's miss, "The man was in a position to have the chance and if that continues then the goals will follow". Not original, but less harmful unless there is some hidden agenda.

We don't seem to have a clear plan on how to score goals at the moment.

With Grealish wanting to cut inside from the left, you have to have a left-back who wants to overlap. Mykolenko tries but I don't think he's got any attacking instinct in him.

And even if he does get into those positions, there are never players running into the box anticipating a cross. I think the only player who does do that is Alcaraz.

I'd be tempted to play Alcaraz as the attacking midfielder, Gana and Dewsbury-Hall as centre midfielders, and drop Garner… or maybe stick him at right-back which would allow O'Brien to centre-back and Keane up front.

There's lots of things we could do… but I think we all know the starting line-up will be the same as the Sunderland game. Barry or Beto the only thing unconfirmed.

I just hope our owners will lose patience and make the change -- unlike Kenwright, who gave Moyes 11 years to establish our mediocrity.

Kenwright and Moyes practically finished us off as a major player in the Premier League.

My son in Ireland is already telling me that our new owners are sounding out Brendan Rodgers as a likely replacement...

Frying pan and fire, anybody?

But l believe that is a symptom of the underlying feeling in this side: he didn't pass as he simply had zero confidence in Beto's ability to score.

Add to that benched players chomping at the bit to get game time instead of the usual failing performances from preferred individuals and we have a right shit-storm in the making.

Our wonderful manager has sown the seeds of this mess with his Wolves "l don't give a fuck what you think" cup selection and we're struggling to recover.

Déjà vu for me... it's like he's never been away. Not good enough and he never has been. The only positive is there is no Kenwright to let him get away with it.

l've a feeling the ice is beginning to thin!

Yes, I think Grealish has the skill and technique to play as you suggest but I don't think he has the physical ability anymore to play in that position.

He looked knackered to me in the second half v Sunderland; I know hardly any player looked good in that second half but Grealish seemed drained of any energy.

Did Everton look better in the second half of last season than they are looking now with the addition of better players?

I wouldn't be against that.

I heard that rumour in Liverpool yesterday.

If it becomes reality, I think Brendan will be facing a backlash from the fans and should have a good think about it before accepting the poison chalice.

Fuck off!

There are about 10 managers in world football that would immediately divide the Everton supporters. We've already picked three of them in Benitez, Allardyce and Moyes. Can we not make it four in a row, please!!!

Just a little reminder of how we used to serenade the ex Redshite, narcissistic gobshite.

Moyes came in last season and exceeded what many thought possible in getting us to safety quicker than most of us believed possible. Also, he improved the level of football we had been seeing. But because of so many players' contracts coming to an end last season, this didn't help our close season.

We brought in Dewsbury-Hall and Grealish and, thankfully against most T/W posters' wishes, gave Michael Keane an extension to his contract.

We also brought in 3 young players for a net spend of over £70M and so far all 3 have failed to make an impression.

Many moan about the lack of subs but, when you look at what's on the bench, there is very little quality to pick from.

Many ask why he alternates between Beto and Barry, because neither have shown they deserve a run of games, so we start most games were a toss of the coin between the two is the answer.

This team lacks pace all through the team, and that is a big worry both going forward and defending.

I don't exonerate Moyes but I do think, with the awful recruitment of players this summer, he is managing with one hand tied behind his back. Hopefully the club will listen to his views regarding player purchases in January and not our pathetic recruitment team.

I think the answer to your question is Yes, we did look better at the end of last season than we do now. The difference is that, last season, the team and tactics picked themselves -- this season, he has too many options so he doesn't know what to do with them.

If Grealish isn't fit enough, get him down to the Sandhills for extra training!

Brendan Rodgers? - O mammy daddy no!

I'm going for a lie down.

Some of you have short memories, remember all the other managers that were so-called not good enough? Fat lot of good that did, didn't it, we are no better off now than when Martinez left.

It's a lot more to do with the players than the manager. In the Sunderland game, we played well for 30 minutes and then not so good for the rest of the game. Is that the manger's fault or the players'? They are the ones actually playing the game, so if I am blaming anybody, it's the players.

The way Sunderland have been performing, I think a draw was a good result in the circumstances, on their ground, with thousands of fanatical supporters shouting them on.

Until we can field a team that matches the top teams quality-wise, we will struggle, it's as simple as that for me. How we actually manage that, what with PSR, I don't know, we are stuck now in limbo because of thse rules.

We are currently 14th, which is probably at the bottom end of the range most expected us to finish (between 10th and 14th). We are 13th for xPts which means we are roughly where we deserve to be.

Anyone who definitely expected we would be challenging for Europe this season was wearing blue-tinted glasses, I'm afraid.

Two things have been genuinely disappointing though from Moyes:

Firstly, the lack of development. We spent a good amount of money this summer on some young, talented players. And none of them have been well utilised or managed by Moyes. If you're going to prioritise senior players, then the results need to reflect that decision and they have not.

Secondly, the lack of reactivity. In-game management has been poor with not enough adjustments and often late or detrimental substitutions despite having a plethora of options for the first time in a while.

Monday was a great example, a game that we had lost control of after 30 minutes and yet Moyes refused to change anything substantial.

The form is also worrying. It's 1 win in 8 now; if it weren't for our good start to the season, we'd be in trouble. Forest, West Ham and Fulham all have decent teams; if they start to pick up a few results then we could easily be drawn into another relegation battle.

A loss to Fulham would certainly put real pressure on Moyes but equally a win would lift us close to the Top 10. I can't see him going anywhere till Xmas but, if we are lower than 15th, then I wouldn't be surprised to see TFG pull the trigger.

Yes, we did spend most of our budget on young players, but I am not as convinced as you are about their ability.

He has given Barry game time but the kid is miles off being a Premier League quality striker. Dibling, when selected, has looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights, despite Moyes suggesting he is doing well on the training ground. Surely, if that was true, he would be our first change.

We spent in excess of £35M on this kid and he can't even get on as a sub in some games. And the young lad we bought from Bayern didn't look anywhere near ready when he played.

Maybe Röhl might be the best of the bunch but so far injury has stopped us seeing too much of him. So I would suggest the recruitment of these youngsters has so far not proved the success they hoped for.

“He is an untrustworthy, egotistical, hubristic, lying sociopath. I'm glad to see the back of him.”

I've told him he should get off the fence!

And I think Phil 71 and Kieran are right. It should be Dewsbury-Hall with either Gana or Garner. Dewsbury-Hall has the vision but not the possession skill required at the Number 10 position.

Very few if any youngster is going to come to a new league like the Premier League and shine immediately. That's why they need development and confidence boosting to reach their potential; the opposite of what has happened so far.

I think there is a good chance that we will look back on the summer as a good window in years to come but that chance lessens with every month they are kept on the bench.

I've no idea why he didn't bring on Aznou for Mykolenko (who was playing terribly) when we were 2-0 down against Spurs.

Or why he didn't bring on Dibling instead of McNeil against Sunderland when we were crying out for someone who could transition the ball.

Match Simulation: Using the xG values for every shot taken by both teams in a match, a computer model simulates the match thousands of times (eg, 10,000 times). For each simulation, a random number is generated for every shot to determine, based on its xG probability, whether it results in a goal or not. This process generates a wide range of possible scorelines and, consequently, win, draw, or loss outcomes.

Probability and Formula Application: From these thousands of simulations, the model determines the overall probability of a win, a draw, and a loss for each team. These probabilities are then plugged into a simple formula to determine the expected points for that match: xPts = (Probability of Win × 3) + (Probability of Draw × 1) + (Probability of Loss × 0)

For example, if a team has a 50% chance of winning, a 30% chance of drawing, and a 20% chance of losing based on the simulations, their xPts for that match would be:

xPts = (0.50 × 3) + (0.30 × 1) + (0.20 × 0) = 1.5 + 0.3 + 0 = 1.8 points

And good stuff Alan 70!

After you are signed, the manager says he needs 10 players.

Thrown on in a Carabao League Cup match with other young players in a negative formation. Slaughtered by a poor team that had not won a game. Becomes obvious that the manager plays old pros and will only play youth if he has no choice.

Asked to play as a target man, when all your training before Everton is about beating the defender, passing, and fast ball progression. Even told previously a target man is old hat.

Told publicly you are not up to the first team standard. Asked to play reactive football and chase after defenders. Blamed publicly for a team's performance. Coached to play negatively, with no initiative.

Getting fan abuse from the sidelines, having followed the manager's instructions.

Listen to a manager blame the players for team performance, when you hear players question the manager's ability on the training group and in the dressing room.

What development? Time to look elsewhere, as they are and will be doing.

If Rodgers came in, I think it will send me over the edge, but we do need someone to replace Moyes at the end of the season.

Whatever you are taking, I suggest you come off it.

It will be bad for your health.

Morrisey, Sheedy, Beardsley... give me strength!

It was obviously still a very good opportunity wasted, and was wasted by what I believe is our biggest downfall: poor movement.

I would have got rid of Michael Keane but he has deserved credit for his displays and was definitely one of our better players again the other night.

But I'd be telling lies if I said I've got a lot of confidence in him, especially when he's playing next to Tarkowski.

Tarkowski, once again, got the last touch on a goal conceded by Everton, but Michael Keane's defensive effort in the build up to the Sunderland goal was absolutely second rate.

Watching O'Brien, playing fullback, has also become very painful, and definitely contributes to what I said I believe to be the biggest downfall of this Everton team, earlier in this post.

Sunderland were poor but at least they offered movement. If Everton are to improve and play with the consistency that is lacking, then we have simply got to find a way to play with a lot more movement.

Just providing a chronology of the observed facts, which you seem to have missed.

We miss Branthwaite terribly because he had the pace to have our back line playing higher up the pitch. With Tarkowski and Keane, we're so deep because they haven't got the pace.

Why doesn't Moyes play O'Brien in his proper position as one of the centre-backs? We'd be able to play a higher line. That's why Tarkowski's deflections have cost us in games.

My response was that he should have passed even if it was fucking Moyes.

It was a fuck-up, it should have won us the game, but this is what happens when players aren't getting selected enough, and this is why I keep going on that I don't think the manager, is getting enough out of his squad.

I want whomsoever is to blame outed and ousted.
Even Bernie the Bolt made us smile!

We've employed dinosaurs by the bucketload the last few years, let's not go there again.

Surely that rumour is someone making mischief.

I found it strange that we pressed them really well in the first 30 minutes and really caused them some problems, but then seemed to drift off that tactic soon afterwards. A high press obviously requires a lot of stamina to maintain throughout a game, but it also means the defense can play further up the pitch.

I think that Moyes is acutely aware of the lack of pace in our defense and Keane and Tarkowski look organised and solid as shot-stoppers because our defense is often supported with our midfielders and they have less space that they have to command.

But the consequence of that is that our formation ends up sitting deeper and deeper in games and the opposition then have the freedom and the confidence to press and attack us further up the pitch for them.

I definitely sensed a big confidence drop in the team in the second half as the formation sat deeper and both Moyes and the on-field captain need to gee the players up during the game and try and restore a bit of possession-based swagger to their game.

Barry for Beto, or Beto for Barry doesn't make any difference. Neither are good enough.

Starting Gueye is okay but he cannot play consistently well for 90 minutes. Why wasn't Röhl considered?

Many of us would like Garner to start at fullback with Big Jake taking one of the middle positions that would allow Röhl to get a chance to start with Gueye and then replace Gueye later with Iroegbunam.

I think the knives will really be out at the Fulham game if Moyes doesn't change his thinking and things go awry.

Possibly petty, but this is a pet-hate of mine. Thanks for saying this so loudly and clearly, Rob. ‘We' are ‘we'. ‘Us', too. ‘Everton' can sound and seem like a distant commentator.

Jimmy Carr: ‘The thing is, Toffee Web is not representative of the Everton fanbase … ‘

You have clear-cut scientific evidence of this, Jimmy, because in my world you are well wrong?

John Williams (sigh): so which one or more of the posters on here chased the car down the road as you put it, as you were talking about our (note ‘our') posters -- not Everton fans more generally?

By the way, Mr Williams (39), they are not ‘facts'; they are your versions of stories.

I think I know who needs ‘to have a long look in the mirror'.

He simply will not change things when it's clear to everyone his tactics aren't working. His substitutions are abysmal and he is quite happy with mediocrity.

If Moyes had 5 Messis available, he would have all five playing at the back!

Unfortunately you are telling the damming truth.A young Messi would be aka Barry, under Moyes.

TFG with their experience of Roma have put in place a strategic plan accepted by Moyes which was to build from Youth. The aged Pros that Moyes wanted and was allowed to solcit were not interested in playing for him and were asking for too much money for the privilege.

Moyes then was exposed as not been able to develop the young purchased players into the first team or provide a framework that they could play in.He also publicly demotivated them to cover his ass.

Moyes being cynical doesn't care whether he is sacked or not. His objective is to prolong his tenure as long as possible and will blame anyone but himself, as can be plainly seen in his post match comments.

Moyes knew there was never going to be a Stage 2 for him.It is part of the inferiority complex he always has had as a Manager.

For the record I actually thought he had learnt over the years and was determined to break the glass ceiling. I now know his confidence on rejoining Everton was boy wonder stuff, even for him. He never had to reorganise and develop a squad as he had to do in the Summer and he unfortunately was not up to it.He now has resorted to type and is far short of producing the shear hardworking , determined displays that his hallmark sides were capable off, if the Sunderland game is anything to go by.

Correct...l thought ld deleted the post tbh just logged on today and low and behold its still there...but the thrust of the point remains however...l think Charly didn't trust his team mate...we've all been there at whatever level

Who would you bring in? I'd genuinely like to know who you think would turn around our fortunes?

There were numerous posters around this time last year saying we needed to move fast to get Dyche out and get Potter in. Look how that transpired.

I can remember similar noises for Lopetegui a few seasons ago. I work with two Leeds fans who think Bielsa walks on water but he declined to work with our players.

Give Dyche all of the stick you want but at least he stepped up and kept us up. Thomas Frank is much coveted but I know a Spurs fan who can't stand him. Marco Silva has been very good for Fulham but is struggling this season (enter Everton to give him hope).

I've lost count of the number of managers down the years that have looked good for a short while and then things have turned sour. Chris Wilder was mooted at one point. The Edwards guy at Luton… etc, etc.

I do admit that the Crystal Palace and Bournemouth managers seem impressive but Everton is a massive club. It's okay doing alright at Fulham or Brighton or Bournemouth but winning is expected at our club and it doesn't help that we share the city with that lot. Not all managers could hack it at Everton.

I loved the first season under Martinez and it was like the shackles were off. We played some great, attacking football and gained a record points tally in the Premier League but it all went sour, largely due to poor recruitment. We've had brief spells since where we've looked like we're onto something but we're only ever 3 bad results away from a crisis at Everton.

My Question: Our owners (if even possible by football laws now) throw in a big big fortune. We buy the very very best. How? Just big wages attracts them. Moyes gone; best manager aged 29 arrives. The class of what we bought wins everything... apart from the League Cup (my age!).

Would you really love it? Really? If so... Are we propping up a corrupt system. Trump League?

You have clear-cut scientific evidence of this, Jimmy, because in my world you are well wrong?"

I don't think Jimmy is that far out with that opinion to be fair.

There seems to be a big difference between the mood on here to that on, for example, The Peoples Forum.

The match going fans I talk with also see things very differently and are prepared to be more patient with Moyes, although many were exasperated after the game on Monday.

I think if those posters on the Live Forum expressed their "game over" before half time out loud at the ground, they'd be told to shut up and I doubt very much that anyone sat in the ground, that would openly express a belief that we'll lose 2-0 or 3-1 before the team is even announced, would have a comfortable time of it.

I agree with Jimmy in the main, yes.

We have already tried him and unfortunately he didn't work. The evidence is there to be seen.

If people are happy with mid-table and maybe 6th or 7th place in 2 or 3 years, fair enough… but for me, that's failure.

Every time we play, I am sure we want the team to win and we will cheer them on through the whole game but, being realistic, most fans can see the bigger picture.

I have no idea what his tactics are. However it does appear that at least half the side are not following instructions. Therefore, if the other half are trying to follow what he has said, you end up with what happened at Sunderland.

Whilst my observations are slightly more than mere conjecture, players who may feel aggrieved are the likes of Barry and Beto who have little to no service. As inexperienced top league players, the pressure on them is immense… and it is a strong possibility they will miss glaring easy opportunities.

Other players in this league frequently do. Calvert-Lewin did; Salah and Haaland do. The latter two receive constant service and chances they are able to convert one or more out of the half dozen or so they have missed.

The issue of hoofing it up from Pickford to a lone striker who is expected to win the air duel, get their own flick on, beat the whole defence and score is ludicrous. But it’s how Everton play and have done for decades. Not one of the team support the lone striker.

Beto and Barry are not good enough. But the people responsible for buying them hide away like cowards.

Somewhere along the line with Barry, Moyes must have had an input. Others, like Dewsbury-Hall, Gueye, Alcaraz, Ireogbunam, have consistently been poor. The first two are guaranteed starters.

Apart from Jack Grealish, the summer signings have been underwhelming. But it is the manager’s job to address and remedy it. But he can’t because he is so staid in his failed system ways, he is unable to do anything else.

So he heaps blame on the people who need his words of wisdom and guidance. He does this repeatedly.

Sacking him now wont be productive. Your giving the next person little to no chance of success.

Let him grind out turgid draws and an occasional win. But for gods sake don't spend big in the winter window. We will only end up with more Patterson, Anzou, Beto, Barry head-scratchers.

But go and look at some other fan sites, talk to some supporters who don't bother with this place, or as suggested elsewhere, go the game and compare what you hear there with what you hear on the Live Forum, then come back and tell me that ToffeeWeb isn't creaking with pessimism. To be fair, it's laughable at times.

That said, it's typical of how people behave in the consequence free environment of social media I suppose. I'm just calling it as I see it.

Christy (37), I haven't contradicted myself. Re-read my post. I'm not happy with Monday's performance either, what I'm saying is that the headline about Barry is the sort of one-eyed assessment of the match that encourages more angst and gloom on here.

The lead writer on ToffeeWeb isn't exactly the most optimistic of supporters is he? He's had it in for Moyes since he was re-appointed, along with any number of the current playing squad depending on what day of the week it is.

The biggest danger to Moyes is not getting performances at Bramley-Moore Dock, and turning it into a venue that teams fear coming to. The two main reasons that Moyes was employed were continuity and to pack Bramley-Moore Dock.

He does provide continuity and TFG will be working on the strategic development plan behind the scenes based on the data available.

Secondly, his main success at West Ham was filling the London Stadium, the other reason for his appointment.

It is never as simple as getting rid of Moyes and employing another manager. It is what the data tells TFG and whether the performance across the board is sufficient to produce the right 'mode' level of results.

TFG will only move onto Stage 2 when they are ready, not based on anyone else's opinion, but on the data that only they have available to them.

I have pointed out my opinion on what I think are Moyes's underperformance metrics, but what counts is the opinion of TFG. They have the data and only they have it.

I believe it is actually entirely characteristic for Moyes to highlight Barry's miss.

He is a self-serving, self-satisfied coward.

Pochettino is missing the Premier League though... hmm!

Former Everton Chairman Sir John Moores once said:

"Everton expects success. We've a very good crowd and our crowd are very loyal. But, of course, they pay money and they expect to see us do well. If we don't do well then something should be done about it and something will be done about."

I think that ethos is certainly something that I as an Evertonian fully and wholeheartedly embrace. If it means I'm critical when I see that we are not doing well... so be it.

I think Moyes was bang on the money with what he said up top. The ludicrous Barry miss was crucial; it completely changed the game from that moment. He is absolutely correct.

If we had a half-decent striker, we would all have a different view of Moyes. Someone who converts the many good chances the team has produced changes the whole game dynamics; we become a team playing on the front foot instead of looking over our shoulder.

In the Sunderland game, if Barry converts that chance, it becomes a completely different game. Playing with a threat also takes the pressure off the back line which then enables them to support the midfield.

Everybody wanted Potter and look how he did at West Ham. I'm not saying Moyes is the answer but I do believe he has done better than the previous ones after he first left us.

Beto is shit but Barry is a strange one: he scores 11 goals in La Liga, so not a bad effort. I think Barry needs to grow some balls, he doesn't seem to like it when defenders get physical with him.

I agree with your thinking. I therefore reframe my thinking that Moyes is beyond worrying whether he gets the sack and now state Moyes is not going to take the blame for players or player inadequacy. Though I do think motivationally he has to be careful about the way he says things. Like TFG, he is working on the data.

The Barry ludicrous miss was ludicrous and important in the game. Moyes after that took back control and dumbed down to get a draw and the point, but he wasn't happy with the work and effort of the second half. He won't be putting his arms around Barry this coming week.

Wanting the best for Everton should be the most natural thing in the world but there are so many mitigating circumstances and you have got to understand that things really changed the day that William Kenwright got hold of the club.

Goals change games, and when a team has got a very weak mindset, then so do missed chances. Barry's miss was awful but if people want to blame him for the next hour of completely passive and negative football, then I just hope TFG are taking notice.

You sort it!

He approached it wrong and his body shape looked poor -- but lots of top strikers miss that sort of chance.

The difference with top strikers is that 5 minutes later they get another chance and make amends.

Moyes for some reason gets a softer ride than some of those other managers you were alluding to. Allardyce took us to 8th in 6 months, but was sacked for playing Moyesesque football.

Silva wasn't allowed the sort of time Moyes gets to turn things around and had quite a lot of bad luck. And Martinez was too optimistic for many fans!

The bottom line is that Kenwright and Moyes ruined this club together; Moshiri tried to fix it by throwing money at the problem but lacked any patience. While I don't think any of us wanted another Moshiri, TFG are far too quiet.

The world's gone mad.

It is a strange paradox that the man who dragged us into “not getting relegated is good enough” territory was also responsible for our best sequence of finishes in Premier League history.

Seems like there might be a bit more to it, therefore…

I think loads of people have failed at life in general and on ToffeeWeb as well, as more Evertonians who have never read ToffeeWeb. I don't see as many Bluenoses as I used to before the lockdowns changed life for everyone —- that said, the few I do see have the same opinions as many on here, both for and against.

ToffeeWeb is a forum where fans give their opinions like most of us do or did about all things in life and football is always one of the main topics. Moyes splits the fans no matter where the topic comes up; Kenwright strangely didn't, because quite a lot of football fans are not interested in what happens off the field, only on what happens on it.

A big majority were ignorant of the way some of us thought he was running the club, so he got a walkover. With Moyes, because he is running the club and the way we play along with most managers with every club, he comes under the microscope and is looked at a lot more.

So I think the general outcome of opinion of what you see on ToffeeWeb will be the general opinion across all the Everton fans, whether they go to the game or not — most interested fans can see the game anywhere these days because of TV.

Most people just want the manager to show he is capable of learning from mistakes and make changes.

Why don't people stop pretending that, just because they believe some substitution or another would have made all the difference, that it actually would have done?

Chris Sutton claimed in his match predictions for this week that if Barry had scored his chance we would have won. Is he covering for himself as well? Or is that just the likely outcome?

If the lad was that good, he would be indisputable first choice given he is up against absolutely nothing based upon Beto's performances this season. One of which produced a similarly glorious chance missed which Moyes made mention of too.

Get real. Our squad isn't as good as people want to believe. Our summer business was poor.

Come now, Robert, it was far easier to score than miss. Missing a chance from virtually under the crossbar is nothing to do with getting up to speed with the Premier League -- it was on a plate for him.

I really want Barry to be given time and to succeed but to say that wasn't a bad miss is "ludicrous".

I've been on ToffeeWeb a long time and never came across a poster who suggested that "avoiding relegation was good enough" during Moyes's first tenure.

Certainly some argued that, given our resources, 7th was as good as could be expected until more money became available... but simply avoiding relegation was never a bar for many, if indeed any.

In that Wolves game, Moyes made seven changes and started four players who had hardly played much first-team football this season; he then tried putting players on at half time who should have been on from the start.

Against Palace, the general consensus was the subs made at half-time completely changed the game; in other games, he made them too late and not enough.

Why didn't all the other managers that tick the boxes people want now -- like young, exciting, progressive coaches, or experienced, perennial winners -- not do as well with much better hands than the one Moyes was dealt most of his first spell here?

How come our only Champions League qualification in the competition's history came under Moyes? How come our best run in a cup since we last won one was also by Moyes, if he's not a cup manager?

Was getting dumped out of the FA Cup after a home draw in 8 of the 11 years prior to his arrival the first time his fault? Including to the might of Bradford City and Port Vale, in a replay?

Was putting Liverpool out of the competition in the early 90s after a 4-4 draw and replay win, only to then immediately fall flat on our face against a bang average West Ham side, his fault too?

Or is that just the way this club is?

As a person who has failed in so many walks of life, I feel more than qualified to comment on others' shortcomings.

Yes, taking off the players that people next week want brought on changed the game. Hardly a ringing endorsement for those players.

Can you name me the games where any of the unused subs against Sunderland have come on and changed the outcome?

I read a piece by Tony Hibbert the other day commenting on Moyes's style of management, he said "He gives you plenty of praise, but also lets you know what he expects from you, and I like that in a manager."

So there is somebody who actually played under him, and like Hibbert, as a fan, just like players, we want honesty from the manager; whatever his faults, Moyes's assessment of most games is spot on.

Many are talking as if Barry is a 19-year-old not a 23-year-old, and if he can't take criticism at that age, he is in the wrong profession.

The miss allowed the game to change. Fact.

Should Barry have scored? Yes. Fact.

Let's not be shy about it.

Not sure the bottom line is that Moyes ruined this club. In the 6 seasons before he arrived, we had finished 15th on average with absolutely nothing to cheer or get excited about.

Moyes has his faults but to say he ruined the club when patently improving it is nonsense.

I could, no, I would have scored that Barry miss.

The net wasn't wide open for the tap-in.

Do you not rate Grealish?
Do you not rate Dibling?
Do you not rate Röhl?
You seem to rate Alcaraz...

Previously you argued that Beto would be a striker we could rely on, so Barry being a raw striker with potential can't really be criticised since you agreed with the striking policy? One dependable one and one who would need time but potentially far superior.

Previously, you alluded to the moving of Ndiaye to right wing and the signing of Dewsbury-Hall as major flaws. Both, I agree with you, are wrong but these are Moyes's decisions. During the summer, it was clearly stated that we wanted two midfielders, a Number 6 and a Number 8, so Moyes has identified him as a Number 8 but plays him as a Number 10. The decision to play Ndiaye was stumbled upon by Moyes after he bizarrely played Alcaraz as a right winger against Leeds.

Could Moyes not play Ndiaye left with Grealish as a Number 10 which seemed likely the thinking of TFG when constructing the squad?

The right-back and left-back issues were clearly not essential for Moyes with the players brought in and linked.

The criticism of TFG for not getting a really pacey wideman is valid but, from my own perspective, Dibling will be the best signing we will have made this summer.

Genuinely, why do you think it's so bad and, if so, why don't you hold Moyes to account?

That's essentially the failure of successive owners to capitalise on what should have been an era of great wealth.

Wealthy clubs compete for and win silverware. The wealthy clubs with the best players and managers win most of all.

You are correct but Moyes and Kenwright did nothing to help the situation -- ie, win trophies. Robert, you are right too -- we missed the boat financially and we were left behind by our traditional peer group.

The thing is, though, that now we have a golden opportunity to fight our way back to the top as long as we have the right manager to lead us there.

Moyes is a good manager if you want mid-table security. Do we want that? No way.

I believe we have the makings of a good squad -- they just need a good tactician coaching them.

It is always followed by a rationalisation for doing nothing different or challenging anyone who questions decisions that went badly wrong. All as a basis for dumbing down standards and lowering expectations.

1 win in 8 is completely unacceptable so stop making pathetic excuses for it.

It's clear that David Moyes is not a cup manager when you look at his record over the years, mate.

It looks like he's started trying to become more competitive in the cups because he won one at West Ham and also got to a Europa League semi-final.

Grant @143, the reason that the team improved that night at Wolves was because the players who were already up to speed were introduced when Everton were losing, and they replaced the players who were not up to speed.

I thought Röhl helped the dynamics of the team when he was introduced against Villa, even though we never won that day. I just wish David Moyes could improve the dynamics of the squad by giving players more minutes, which helps to get them up to speed.

In terms of the summer window there are pros and cons.

Pros:

- Barry, Dibling, Rohl, Alcaraz and Aznou are all players who could form the basis of a good side for many years to come.

- Grealish and Dewsbury-Hall are good “ready made players”.

Cons

- none of Barry, Dibling, Rohl, Alcaraz and Aznou are showing any form at the moment (and are hardly featuring); it's unlikely all of them will be a long-term hit.

- there's a lot of unnecessary duplication of some positions and a lot of neglect of other positions -- and it is hurting us right now.

As for Moyes deciding he didn't want to upgrade the full-backs, I expect that isn't the case. I am sure he would have very much wanted to sign the likes of Kerkez and Frimpong and also the likes of Truffert and Kayode. It is probably more accurate to say he or the club decided that we could manage and we'd sort out other aspects of the squad instead given the limited budget.

It wouldn't have been so bad if Branthwaite had been fit -- but he's injured so we are where we are.

After another round of spending we might look very favourably on the likes of Dibling, Rohl and others. For the time being, the summer window hasn't materially moved us on from where we were last season.

Not sure who the unused subs were v Sunderland but I don't expect much out of any subs brought on with 7 minutes to go which has happened a few times this season and last season.

In the Palace game, Alcaraz, Beto and Iroegbunam made a big difference along with changing Garner to full back and O'Brien going to centre back; this changed the attitude of the players all round.

I said Kenwright and Moyes both ruined the club. It started with Kenwright and Moyes has been very successful at continuing it. (I do think all Moyes doubters will acknowledge the stabilisation he did initially, but that cannot be the only thing he has going for him.)

To be clear, it depends how you measure it, doesn't it? Lowering expectations and never winning a thing to me is ruining one of the most successful clubs in the country. Finishing 8th is not success, winning the FA Cup and Charity Shield before that is success under Joe Royle.

So yes, Moyes has ruined this club in my opinion; the fact that people still back him when Allardyce was hounded out for doing the same thing is baffling.

In the time that Moyes started at Everton, Leicester City have won the Premier League, FA Cup and Community Shield. Who has been more successful? You might say Everton because we haven't been relegated, but to me we have achieved nothing for nearly 30 years.

Since the Second World War -- 80 years -- we have won 8 things (not counting the Charity Shield) and 5 of those came in the glory years from 1984-87.

That leaves 3 trophy's in 76 years!!

We didn't get to a final from 1989 till under Moyes in 2009.
It can't all be Moyes's fault surely.

He said "Every window gives you an opportunity to improve your squad if you can". He then went on to say, "I think we will be out there trying to be busy, but that doesn't mean I am going to be busy". I find that very disturbing; is that to let us fans know that it's the recruitment team who will be buying players and he has no input?

He was also asked about what Dibling has to do to get in the team, to which Moyes said, "We want him to up his levels, and up his training." But he has been here over 2 months; why isn't he at the level he should be?

I get the distinct impression there is a massive disconnect between the manager and the recruitment team which doesn't augur well.

In fact, none of my Spurs mates were even alive when they last won it (I was).

Mixed messages: I read last week that Dibling has been very unlucky not to get more minutes because he had been performing very well in training (according to the coaches at Finch Farm) and I was getting told something similar by a lad the other day.

Moyes picked McNeil over Dibling though because he's been performing well in training, so either his coaches were lying, or Dibling has become frustrated, because he's trained well and still hasn't been given much game time, which is something that usually happens when players become frustrated.

I know your views and I know mine but Grant has used the transfers as a defence of Moyes, yet his reasons were more of an indictment.

As for these not improving us. I disagree... how can a player who is considered for the now in Dewsbury-Hall never in his career have performed to the level or standard that the one for the future in Dibling has?

Is it poor recruitment or is it poor managerial suitability for said recruitment?

If you look through the squad, whether Tarkowski over O'Brien, or that Armstrong was arguably our best midfielder pre-season, wherever you look, Moyes favours experience.

And if the squad isn't materially better, why is our best player of the last 3 seasons sitting on the bench? Why is there outrage at Grealish's omission from the England side.

Why is Moyes touting both Dewsbury-Hall and Garner for senior call ups? The manager clearly thinks the squad is materially better.

Robert, I'm sure Moyes would have liked to sign Mbappe as well...

Totally agree Moyes could be using this squad differently and probably better.

Two completely different managers: Martinez and Allardyce would figure out their own way of getting more width in particular. Also, for a tall side, we don't seem much of a threat at set pieces.

I do see some serious weaknesses to the summer recruitment too but that's not to excuse Moyes (who might even be responsible for those weaknesses).

Whatever the case, it seems unlikely we'll see the best of players brought in this summer until we've done another round of spending.

To Brian's point I am encouraged that there may be more spending in January. It is uncomfortable if Moyes is being a control freak about this as he should wind his neck in and get on with the coaching.

"As for Moyes deciding he didn't want to upgrade the full backs -- I expect that isn't the case."

Indeed, the very first player we publicly made a deal with was a right-back. That guy that decided to stay at Fulham.

1995?

But those 4 players that started against Wolves were the very players that fans on here had been calling to be played, and are continuing to call to be played!!!

This thread has become like our current formation, along with the timing of and the way the manager is currently using his subs. What's the word again!?

2 trophies since then in the Kenwright years and zero in the post Moyes years (37 years in total).

I could be wrong, but I think that's the standards we look at.

But the ruination only started with him??

Like I said, that's a large part of that 15 years.

He might have the right to call out a miss, but he loses that right when he is trying to blame players for his own inadequacy. Whch is what he is doing.

Concise and from the heart.

You and I are of a similar age group (I think). I can't understand this unwritten coaching rule that states -- you must not substitute until the 60th minute. So obvious nowadays.

Coach -- use your brain (if it works) as to when you see the need to substitute. Or am I just getting past my use-by date?