Does Koeman have room yet for Everton's youngbloods?

Kids don't stay kids. Sooner or later, Koeman, even if he's only here for three years, will have to deal with the U-23s that aren't U-23s, anymore.

Most are only names and fuzzy 10-second highlight clips I've watched on the club site. I've seen a bit of Galloway, Holgate and Davies, but that's about it. What I've seen was impressive. I do realize that the talent level difference between the U-23s and the senior side is enormous, and that the odds of the kids making it to the Premier League are pretty slim; however, they are making so much noise, they will be very hard to ignore.

It's not looking good so far for the younger players. Holgate did well but was undeservedly dropped for Coleman. Davies has had a few minutes here and there but Koeman has given more time to Cleverley who is an average player and who isn't going to improve. Young players have a large capacity to improve but they've got to be given a chance.

I was disappointed that neither Davies or Dowell was given a game in the EFL Cup and we went out with an anemic performance. Dowell in my opinion is the only natural No 10 we have at the club and is a real talent. He's worth a place on the bench and give him a few short run-outs from there.

It's a little concerning. At least give these lads a good loan move to get experience either at Premier League or Championship level.

The problem is that "short-termism" will quickly merge into "long-termism".

If we keep recruiting, over the next 2 to 3 years, experienced players from outside to the exclusion of talented young players already at the club, we will seriously weaken, if not destroy, our widely admired youth policy. Current good "kids" will have become young men by then and will have left out of sheer frustration. And it will be very difficult to start rebuilding that infrastructure.

Are we talking about the kids because of the deep down knowledge that we have suggesting we wont be buying without selling in January???

I think this article may be a couple of months premature. I'd expect Davies, Dowell, and maybe one or two others will get some action in the first team over the busy December / January period when there is a fixture congestion, and inevitably injuries, suspensions, and the need to rest one or two players (eg, Barry) will arise.

It should be mentioned too that Davies has had a couple of run-outs as a sub in the first team already this season, so it's reasonable to assume he won't be far away from getting a Premier League start sooner rather than later this season.

Koeman's signings – Gueye, Williams, and Stekelenburg – were always likely to slot straight into the first team, simply because they were Koeman's signings. At the end of the day, only 11 players can be on the field at any one time but we all know we need a squad to cover the inevitable later in the season. The young guns' time will come.

Not too concerned after 6 games. Holgate and Davies have been played and you can only introduce so many youngsters around a solid experienced core – something that we didn't have.

It is disappointing that we got knocked out of the EFL Cup though as it means less games for opportunities.

Expect more loans.

It's early days yet, Lyndon, and these young lads are being given a good grounding by David Unsworth and Co. Our "back 7" has done pretty well so opportunities are limited, but this will change as the squad becomes stretched by injuries and suspensions as the season progresses.

I think it is always easier for a young player to replace a first-team regular due to injury or suspension than loss of form. They are given a bit more tolerance by the crowd, and possibly by teammates; as they have been pressed into action, there is less tendency to view their performance in direct comparison to the player who has been dropped... less of a need for the incoming player to be an improvement.

As for whether the young player should be retained once the established first teamer is available again, it's not just as straightforward as "if he's done well, he keeps the shirt". There is very often a dip in form after their first few games, taking them out of the limelight before that dip, saying "thanks very much, you've done well, I'll call on you again" (as I suspect will have happened with Mason Holgate) may be the canniest move.

Good article, as ever, Lyndon. Like some, I think it's too early to answer the question as to whether he'll give youth a chance. But the article alerts us to the possibilities (and signs) that Koeman might be here short-term only and therefore be thinking short-term in his selections.

On the other hand, given what Craig #6 says about various factors leading to loss of current first team players (to which I'd add loss of players to the Africa Cup of Nations (?)), then we might well see more of the young lads, and Koeman is preparing them for this in his own way.

Holgate looks like a fantastic player but of course he should be replaced by a fit Coleman. Don't forget how long Coleman had to wait to break into the first team. How many times he came in and then out again. He went out on loan, got played in midfield... and finally got his place. Holgate isn't a right back and absolutely does not deserve to keep Coleman out the side.

As for the others, Koeman sees them every day and I'm sure he watches the U23s and U18s matches. He will know more about what they're capable of than we do. If they're better than what we have, then he'll play them.

Not many players make a successful break into the first team of a Premier League team at a young age. Certainly not many 18- or 19-year-olds.

I can't see the present 'outstanding crop' of youngsters having any more chance of breaking through under Koeman than they would have done under previous managers.

He strikes me as being an arch pragmatist and the fact that the likes of Cleverley and Gibson have been preferred to Davies says it all for me. And the fact that McAleny is still going through the motions with the U23s when he is now past his 24th birthday cannot be much of a motivation for the Blues hopefuls, can it?

He will choose youngsters if he thinks they will improve our chances of winning. If he doesn't, he won't. We do not have the luxury of experimenting but I hope he is equally rigorous about ejecting underperforming senior pros.

If you're good enough, you're old enough?

Maybe Koeman doesn't think they're better than what is in the first team at the moment.

I hope and expect Steve Walsh to be watching all the young players in every game they play. If the young players carry on the way they are playing, then you have to expect that they will not be ignored regarding get a game in the first team.

It is up to them, the harder they work and strive to improve, the quicker they will achieve their goal. Some will get their chance; some will not... it's in their own hands.

Agree with those above, who are concerned that at present he prefers the likes of Cleverley and Gibson – who is always one training session away from an injury – over Tom Davies.

As mentioned by Lyndon, the likes of Holgate, Galloway, Davies, Dowell, Walsh, Connolly, Williams, and quite a few more – are all great prospects, but they all can't play. Although I really hope as many as possible get the chance to prove themselves with the first team. I believe this is our golden crop of youngsters.

I normally agree with much of what you say, Lyndon, but to suggest that a fit Coleman should make way for Holgate is nonsense.

Koeman had to steady the ship first and foremost and he needed to do that by bringing in experienced reinforcements.

Only 1 or two youngsters are ever going to break though over the course of a season and I'd still be confident that we will see more of Davies and perhaps Dowell and Walsh.

Lyndon, I think you are correct in highlighting the likely short-term nature of Koeman's tenure.

Blooding youngsters for him is a second-order consideration. His priority is winning games and getting as far up the table as he can.

As a consequence, bringing on the next generation is a "nice to do" not a "need to do" (unless there are injuries and the younger players have to be given a chance).

The elephant in the room is Barkley. Koeman is giving him enough rope before trying out Davis or Dowell. If Funes Mori can't get into the team, then Holgate, Galloway etc have no chance – and rightly so. Kenny would be my understudy for Coleman anyhow. The only other avenue is an understudy for Lukaku; looking at the U23s, have we got anyone?

With bringing in a DoF in Steve Walsh, the glass ceiling is being reinforced against anyone breaking through. Any signings will go into the team or to the front of the queue. Best thing for the U23 lads is to go out on loan and make a name for themselves.

I fail to see what Cleverley offers that Davies doesn't already. He looked more than ready and was rightly given a chance by Unsworth at the end of last season. Playing one or two youngsters gives the whole crowd a lift especially at home. Against Palace it would have been perfect to throw one in even if just from the bench.

Worryingly I have a feeling Koeman is only concerned with the short term at the moment, I hope that changes.

I suppose Cleverley offers 227 first team appearances, mostly in the Premier League, and 13 England caps. So somebody must have thought he could play a bit. Me too.

It concerns me when Koeman appears to be more inclined to turn to the likes of Cleverley than the talented 'youngsters', eg, Tom Davies & Liam Walsh. Similarly, I feel that dropping Holgate to accommodate Coleman and sending Galloway out on loan (Oviedo deputising for Baines) were also errors in Koeman's judgment.

I watched the 'youngsters' a few times last season; I will watch many more this season, and remain firmly of the opinion that we possess a very talented crop of youngsters, and that they should be given opportunities with the 1st team.

Many fans feel that Davies is the better option than Cleverley when Barry is injured, tired or suspended. Wait until you see Liam Walsh.

What cannot be denied, for we have all seen it, is that the youngsters will run all day and give their all which is more than can be said of some of the established pros.

Let's hope Koeman's arrogance and vision don't blind him as to what's under his nose... we just got rid of one of those pricks.

I've said before on here: Koeman didn't use what Saints fans thought were good youngsters during his South Coast tenure.

A number of recent Everton performances have been crying out for an injection of energy and enthusiasm, for greater pressing, and for much more link-up play between the midfield and the forwards, not least the abject performance at Bournemouth. They were ideal circumstances for Davies to have been brought on.

For me, it's time we all realised that a lack of a footballing brain will permanently cap Barkley's development. Compare with Davies. Davies pushes, he prods, he continually asks for possession, he makes the best decisions on whether to hold or pass, whether to go forward or play the easy ball etc. It's about time Davies was given his head.

Not really rocket science here. It isn't that difficult a choice for Koeman between veterans and youngsters. He is playing the veterans to determine his best starting 11. it might take a few months, especially with the damned international breaks chopping everything up. Koeman can't even get a feeling for how a player will perform game to game over several continuous weeks of games yet.

Once he has the starting 11 plus his next 4 subs (counting the goalkeeper) determined as regulars, then see what he does with the kids. When he then brings a kid into the side, it will be to see if he is better than (not equal to or full of potential) the vet already in his position. If the kid then proves himself, he plays more and gets to be a regular part of the first team and a sub or even starter on the game day squad.

I would expect more appearances for the youngsters in December and after the first of the year. However, this too would depend upon our position in the table and what Koeman's actual season's goals are.

I think we have to be careful here. It is a massive leap from U23 to Premier League level particularly in terms of physicality and fitness.

While I have no doubt some of the names here are excellent players, they may lack the bulk and nous required to be regulars in the first team.

The other aspect is of course consistency and two of my favourite youngsters, Dowell and Galloway, have been very inconsistent in the U23 side. It seems that Galloway has also fallen prey to this at West Brom after an excellent start there.

In most cases, we have to rely on the management to judge when and if a youngster is ready. I'm sure, if the lads are deemed good enough, Koeman will give them their chance.

Liam (16): "I normally agree with much of what you say, Lyndon, but to suggest that a fit Coleman should make way for Holgate is nonsense."

I actually agree with you but, as I pointed out above, there were others who questioned Koeman's decision... a lot of it in hindsight, of course, given that Seamus hasn't set the world on fire since returning.

My point where Holgate is concerned is that his situation adds to the picture when taken in aggregate of the manager's focus on experience at the expense of youth so far. (The key word in the title is "yet".)

In questioning how committed he is to youth the piece might be a little premature but it seems as though my acceptance of Koeman's current approach and pragmatism on this gets lost a little in the reading of the article. Right now I want results but he may need to turn to a couple of younger options as the season wears on.

Cream rises. If the kids are good enough, they will make it impossible for Koeman to ignore.

I think Holgate has been handled well: give them a taste of the first team then let them go and learn their trade some more, then bring them back for another spell.

Too many promising youngsters are thrown in and kept in (not just talking about Everton). Ease them in gradually...

Paul (#20)

So he's got 227 Premier League appearances and 13 England caps – that doesn't make him a good player. Or are you suggesting every player who's played a couple of hundred games in the Premier League should be an automatic choice over every promising youngster?

Probably the only reason he played for England was because he played for Man Utd. And I'd be shocked if he was capped while playing for Wigan or Everton. For me he offers the side next to nothing offensively or defensively and just looks like a typical Lilleshall player or whatever it's called now.

That said, it's all about opinions. One man's meat and all that. I personally think – and I don't suppose I'm alone here – I hope he doesn't get in the side ahead of the likes of Davies and Dowell... ditto Gibson.

Koeman has to give the senior pros a go because they are on big money, and he has to figure out who can do a job for him, and who can't. He'll just be starting to get his head around this now – you can't have all the answers within 6 weeks!

The senior pros who don't fit in will be getting moved on in January and next summer. A couple of vacancies in the squad might become free for the young lads through this.

I don't think there is anything unusual in this. I certainly wouldn't be jumping to conclusions about what the manager is going to do with the kids now after half a dozen games. I also think he could stay more than 3 years – his assistants are loving it at Everton.

The only thing we know is that we don't know.

Have to agree the gaffer has to start with the big-salaried players at least a while longer and while they are in the top six but I would have no hesitation in dropping any who are underachieving and bring in the youngsters.

Defensively they seem to be holding their own but the big test will come against Man City and of course the RS. I still feel Jags and Williams are lacking the extra inch to make them comfortable in the air but we will see...

Coleman is always an impressive raider but is sometimes caught out and Baines is a little past his best. We need to see much more from Deulofeu and Lennon as a supporting cast but I am not hopeful were Valencia is concerned.

It would be nice to see a couple introduced, but IMO the team is not solid, or stable enough to play them regularly.

That is to say we have too many unreliable players to be able to compensate for any errors, or poor performances by the youngsters.

The unreliable players would have to ''turn up'' for every match, as opposed go their 20- or 30-minute performances.

Over the years I've come to believe that, to most Premier managers, these youngsters are a bloody nuisance!

In general terms, they have to be a bloody sight better than 'signings' as their every game has been under the eye of someone at the Club rather than agents or dodgy scouts – and we've had a few of those.

Can you really imagine that Niasse and the like would ever have made it into the £50k-a-week bracket here if their formative years had been spent at Finch Farm?

Indeed, as far as Niasse is concerned, he would never have progressed beyond the Under-10s, I suspect! See what I mean?

I don't think the issue of not playing them is the main concern, it is that they don't even get near the bench.

In the unlikely event that we get a two- or three-goal lead, to rest players I think it more beneficial to put a young lad on for the last 10 minutes than an ageing player you know all about!

I don't know whether it appertains at Everton but in the lower leagues it's common for players to get 'appearance money' and that's maybe why the managers feels they have to use fringe players 'off the bench.'

These days, you can bet the thinking will be money related!

I see Keiron Dowell and Tom Davies are with the first team for preparation for tomorrow's game. So they are not out of sight!

https://twitter.com/RBarkley20

Coleman is a big target for Man Utd. What's he worth?

I agree, Dowell and Davies should be in and around the 1st team. Let's build a strong foundation and a team that puts in for 95 minutes. Then we can introduce young players into a confident side.

Cleverley is not as bad as some make out. Yes, he's a bit inconsistent... but that is because he needs a run of games.

Mourinho, Conte, Guardiola and Klopp seem equally reluctant to blood youngsters. It's the modern way... youngsters need nurturing and patience.

Modern managers seem to have little patience and little inclination to nurture talent over a season or two. They prefer to buy the ready-made product.

Youngsters need to go out on loan if they want experience and to be noticed, but Garbutt hasn't found that helpful, nor did Barkley.

Chris Gould #10, dead on. People forget how long it took the obviously talented Coleman to break through, because David Moyes correctly deemed him not ready. It took him several tries, but he finally grabbed the opportunity with both hands and became a star.

The way a young player breaks through is not by being "given" a chance by the manager. It's by crashing through the barrier and giving the manager no choice, and it's by grabbing that place on the pitch and making it his own.

Something will happen to give these young players an opening. Barry will get tired, or someone will get injured, or RK will finally get fed up with Barkley, and the chance will appear. And then it'll be up to the player to prove the place belongs to him and no other.

I'm all for blooding young players, but it's not a PlayStation game, it's real-life top-flight English football.

Players need more about them than just being a good striker of the ball or a good tackler, they need to have a few strings to there bow to cut it in the Premier League.

I would love to see a few of our young guns replace players like Oviedo, Cleverley, Lennon and Gibson as squad players, but I'm not sure Ronald Koeman is looking to do that. I think he's happier with taking a solid 6/10 in Cleverley than taking a chance on a Dowell or Davies. Same with Oviedo over Connolly or Garbutt.

We're only a few months in though so we need to wait and see.

Is it me or does anybody else find it difficult to find when and where the youngsters are playing so we fans can take a look at some of the possibilities and support them. I had to use the Liverpool website to discover the Liverpool - Everton U23s derby is at Prenton Park on Sunday 23rd October at 1pm. It has cost me a fiver in the past when I watched them at Southport but again no indication of the price that I could (easily) find.

Perhaps if the Everton website can't handle it ToffeeWeb should place a little advert on the site. Hope to see a load of toffees at the Tranmere ground on Sunday to cheer the lads on, it's not far to go, parking is relatively easy and it's cheap.

Ron:

Everton website
Match tab
U23 tab
Click on name of opposition to reveal where game being played, KO time.

Niasse hatrick!! Get him back in the first team fold!

The problem now is that the standard is so high you can't develop players in the first team. It is sad but managers will buy proven foreign players than risk their own youngsters. Why do they bother with academies? Not only Coleman but Baines couldn't get in.

I have been a staunch supporter throughout the years since I started supporting Everton in 95, of the absolute need for pushing through youngsters in the first team.

I can see that Everton have changed on this issue, as we seemed to be much better at giving youngsters actual game time from time to time in a semi regular fashion, in order to test and see if the youngsters were up for it.

I take the examples of James Vaughan, Francis Jeffers and Daniel Cadamarteri as youngsters who we played in spells, and I think that is the best way to find out if they are talented enough for us to keep on the payroll.

In my view, today we are no longer pushing what makes fans truly exited to see, we need a local youngster in the first team in order to get really behind the club going forward.

I know our priority is buying top quality, but we need to keep giving chances to some of our young talents in the first team.

I have a good feeling about Kieran Dowell as an example, he should be tested out in the Premier League for us now, because we are lacking attacking options.

I have noticed a few other attacking players in the U-23 team that needs to be given a tryout in the first team, much like Michael Branch and James Vaughan were, not EVERY game but in small spells as a substitute.

We need to keep our local identity as a club, and that starts with the young locals who loves this club aas much as we do.

I am sick and tired of hearing about Lukaku and his constant put down of our club, and I would rather we as a club start pushing our youngsters more by giving the ones who show form for the U-23`s a short spell in the first team so that we can truly judge who has the most likely chance of making it to the first team.

Instead of sending them out on loan, we need to test them in our team so we as fans can judge who is going to make it or not.

We as fans are the club, and we need to see some of our best latest youngsters in action where it truly matters, for the first team.

We need to gamble a bit more, Alex Ferguson had it EXACTLY right, we are too scared to try out our own youngsters because we might actually be able to judge for ourselves if our acadamy is still producing.

Money is good to have, but our most important assets after that is our youngsters, Unsworth needs to remind Koeman of the importance of giving youth a chance!

I have not seen Koeman take a single gamble with our youngsters, I think it is time we as fans start DEMAND we see at least 1 new young player each season, and to reach that goal youngsters will have to be tested, just like United tested out some of their best youngsters when they were in a pinch.

Our squad is in major need of some young fresh energetic young talent to sprinkle some angel dust on this team.

I refer you all to the feeling we had against Norwich at home last season, where Unsworth took the necessary risk so we could see and judge our own young talents.

We caught a wiff of what could be, and I want a regular taste of some of our most talented attacking players being played semi regularly, I think we can afford to have one youngster in the team and one on the bench, it can rotate between different ones being tried in a group of 3 as an example.

The club is in a restructuring and I want to keep our local identity as a club and not lose it because we finally have money to spend.

Am I wrong??

There is something very special about most of these kids and that is their mental fortitude. (A testament to Unsy perhaps?)

It is always a gamble to include young players because, by definition, they lack experience... but, of the few who got belated exposure at the end of last season, each and every one did themselves immense credit and, in the case of Davies, overshadowed their more senior team-mates.

I sincerely hope that, as statistically unlikely as it is, the majority of them get some game-time sooner rather than later.

We have already let Ledson go, a player who I will back to one day return to the top as surely as Adam Forshaw. Consider that for a minute. It means that the likes of Walsh, Joe Williams, Davies, Dowell and Grant are considered better prospects. I'd love to see them develop in preference to the guaranteed mediocrity of folk like Tom Cleverley (and that isn't a pop as much as it sounds like one).

To tie in with the Barkley thread, I feel like Ross will never fulfill the expectations to be the home-grown legend he became in most people's minds because fundamentally he lacks the character.

Now I absolutely loathe the man I am about to mention but I have always been jealous of the RS having a player like Gerrard in their side who could literally turn games around through sheer desire. There is a good reason that the squinty-eyed scally is so often lauded by the RS fans and on their official mouthpiece, the BBC.

The young Gerrard was as raw and clumsy as they come but he got blooded early and rapidly became a vital player for them. Barkley will never be the player for us to make such an impact but I see every reason that Davies or Walsh could be.

Peter, it seems to me that you must follow this level of football quite keenly and very closely?

You always make good sense when talking about young footballers, and I hope you're right about this present crop.

Also, I agree with you about Ross Barkley, and I often wish the kid didn't give a fuck for nobody.

Jimmy @46.

I think you're spot on about needing to take chances on young players, but I disagree a little over not loaning them out.

The loan system can be used very much to the benefit to both player and club, as it has already been proven with Coleman being loaned to Blackpool. Also players like Kane and Defoe were better for loan deals away from there clubs.

I do strongly agree that at least one player per season should be blooded, especially with the money spent on the youth system within the club.