Patience?

Alasdair Jones 18/11/2019 86comments  |  Jump to last

Regular readers of ToffeeWeb will no doubt have noted that contributors return again and again to two concerns about the present regime at the club:

a) The high expectations that attach to incoming players, often signed from abroad on exorbitant fees and wages, which are not matched by their subsequent displays in a Royal Blue shirt... eg, Schneiderlin, Walcott, Lookman... and most recently, Kean.

b) The frustration amongst many about the reluctance to use young players who have graduated from the Everton Academy, and who now star in the Under-18s or Under-23s. Allied to this is a disappointment that a good number fall away following their introduction to the rigours of the Premier League.

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Reading these comments, I am prompted to try and recall how the club performed in relation to these matters during my earlier years as a Blues supporter. This in turn led me to consider the way in which previous teams were assembled. How successful or otherwise was Harry Catterick in the 1960s in his quest to rejuvenate and remodel his Championship team of 1963, for example?History tells us that he was… but, nevertheless, there was a long gap of seven years between the two Championship-winning sides. Indeed the jigsaw of the 1970s side was put together for the most part by 1967.

So how did the new mix of players fare on introduction to the first team? Were they able to "cut the mustard", as it were, from the off? In order to make this muse more digestible, I will focus on the famed Holy Trinity.

Colin Harvey was the initial member of the triumvirate. He joined the club in 1960 and made his debut for the club's first team in September 1963, age 18, in the 1-0 defeat by Inter Milan in the European Cup away leg. His league debut came much later in the season at Blackburn, replacing the injured Roy Vernon. The game was won 2-0.

The following season, however, he began to cement his place as a wing-half, after appearing for the Blues in the away fixture at Manchester United on 16 September 1964 and three days later scoring in the famous 4-0 win at Anfield. On Boxing Day that year, the Blues played at home against West Brom, a game I attended. Breaking with tradition, I stood in the Bullens Road Paddock. 2-0 down at half-time, all was not well and the conditions were deteriorating, light rain turning to sleet and then snow.

For me, however, Colin Harvey came of age that day. He got a grip on the right side of the midfield and started to work some magic with Alex Scott. The match turned around. Temple, Pickering and Scott scored to secure a 3-2 win.

The following day, the <em>Sunday Express</em> sub-headline to the match report carried the view that "Colin Harvey proved that power can be pretty at wing half." In an era of tough tackling wing-halves, I sort of knew what they meant.

Over a period of 3 months or so, he had carved out an indispensable role in the team. A promising lad who proved to be the first of a long line of Bellfield juniors who Catterick introduced into the team: Hurst, Husband, Wright, Royle…Alan Ball was the second piece of the jigsaw. He was signed from Blackpool in August 1966 for a then-record fee of £112,000. Harry Catterick, as was his style, quietly acquired the player from under the nose of Leeds United, his stock having soared following his appearance in the 1966 World Cup Final.

Alan Ball was brought in to inject some pace and energy into the midfield to complement the by now established Colin Harvey. It worked… but not immediately. The opening game of the 1966-67 season was against Fulham at Craven Cottage where Alan Ball scored his first goal for the club to secure a 1-0 win.

However, that was followed by a curious mix of results. The first home game against Manchester United was lost 2-1, followed by a 3-1 win in the home derby game, where Ball scored twice and gave Yeats and Smith a torrid time. Subsequent games until mid-September were lost or drawn: Man Utd away, Stoke City at home… lost. Burnley at home and Sheffield Utd away… drawn.

On 17 September, a thrilling 5-4 victory was secured against West Brom. The winner was scored by Alan ball – a penalty in the 85th minute. However, despite the mixed bag of results subsequent to his arrival, his position was never in doubt.

The final piece of the midfield jigsaw was Howard Kendall. He was signed from Preston North End for £85,000 in March 1967. His claim to fame at the time was his appearance in the 1964 FA Cup Final against West Ham, being the youngest player to have appeared in a Wembley Final. His first game for the Blues was on 18 March against Southampton at home. The game was lost 1-0 and I recall that to some extent he struggled to get into the game and that maybe Harry Catterick had got this one wrong.

The following home game against Tottenham Hotspur at home was also lost 1-0 but was followed by a 2-0 win at Sunderland. On 19 April, he made his last appearance of the season at home in a win against Chelsea during which he was subbed by Jimmy Gabriel. The following season, he was in from the off, having been determined to up his fitness levels during the close-season. The rest is history – and Catterick was proved to be right.Harry's plan, and the gradual introduction of imports and juniors, proved ultimately to be successful.

Over 4 years to 1967, the 1963 team was transformed into the 1970 team. In the interim, there was of course an FA Cup win in 1966, from which Colin Harvey, Ray Wilson, Sandy Brown, Gordon West, Tommy Wright and Brian Labone made it into the remodelled team. But despite, that 4-year gap, it was only in the January of 1966 that Catterick came under pressure from the media and fans. I cannot recall any time subsequently when there were siren calls for his removal.

Compare that to today's environment of media pressure and instant rushes to judgement following a less than satisfactory result. As Catterick was wont to remind the press on many occasions, his young team needed time to develop. It is easy to speculate that, under the present smothering blanket of media attention, Catterick would not have got that time and would have been called out at the end of the 1966-67 season for having finished 6th and spent record sums on two players. Sounds a bit familiar?

But then the media and fans were a bit more circumspect. The new players showed levels of energy and commitment that few could question. Furthermore, in the absence of a large squad from which to draw, Catterick had to get his signings right – which, for the most part, he did – save for some exceptions: eg, Ernie Hunt. That may have given him some latitude.In terms of results, none of the famous triumvirate cut the mustard from the off. But it seems to me that fans and the media had a more patient view and were ultimately rewarded by some displays of skill, energy and style.

So maybe Silva needs just a little more time. I await the views of others. Is my perception right and should we be more circumspect in our assessment of Silva's circumstances? Harry Catterick was, after all, remodelling his own team and not an assembly of players put before him. But he still needed time.

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Mark Guglielmo
1 Posted 19/11/2019 at 02:24:48
Nice article, Alisdair, it may be the first time I enjoyed reading about "years gone by." Most of the time it's just comments pining for a return to the olden days, or some such. But the way you used a specific era (which I knew nothing about, so some additional thanks for the education are in order) to illustrate how patience can ultimately lead to the rewards we all want.

BUT (there's always a but, isn't there?), in the lexicon of words used to describe 2019, patience won't be on that list. I personally have it, but I think so many do not because of the age we actually live in. News has been replaced by news nuggets to be digested in 24 hours before we're on to the next thing. Social media in particular, has made 240 word count mini-blogs the rule of the day, and genuinely given pretty much anyone the ability to stoke the fire with this complaint, or that complaint, or all the complaints. IMO this all leads to absolutely no patience at all. It feeds general fan sentiment, causing Clubs & their owners & Boards to feel the heat even more, causing THEM to lose patience, and sack managers like they grow on trees. It's a vicious cycle.

I recently watched (and loved) Howard's Way, and if you have as well (or better yet, lived it) you'll recall that leading up to that turning point Oxford United match, the daily papers were calling for Howard's head on a pike. But that was ALL he had to deal with. Could you imagine if Twitter had existed? It's very, very likely that the amazing team of 1984-87 would never have been given the time to gestate and thrive.

I've been voting for patience re: Silva since day 1, or at the very least until this campaign is sorted and done. Unfortunately, for many of the reasons I listed above, I'm in the minority here. I guess we'll see what happens.

Last note, all of the above is just my observation, and opinion. I'm 46 years old, so while I still remember the Dewey Decimal system, rotary-dial phones, and looking up information in my father's Britannica encyclopedia, I'm also very much cognizant of the technology revolution we're currently living in, where everyone has all they need to make snap judgments in the palm of their hands.

Alan J Thompson
2 Posted 19/11/2019 at 03:55:51
The Catt did a lot different. He often bought players with style and ability, like the two Newtons, when more full backs were not really required, George Heslop was a Central League player for us before getting success at City, Tommy Jackson a regular N.Ireland international only played because of injuries to others and rarely it seems did he introduce youngsters who failed, and when they didn't look like they might make it he took them to one side and found a way to move them on, Gerry Humphries being a particular example.

Of course, he had John Moores backing him to the hilt but that also meant having to sign a Walsall player, Bernie Wright, because they were in danger of going bankrupt, EitC of their day or the player Bury didn't have?

So, was the introduction of home raised youngsters the product of his non-hands on coaching, just better judgement of players and/or fearlessness in giving them the opportunity, something I think our present day manager might consider trying.

John Clarke
3 Posted 19/11/2019 at 04:00:03
Such is the EPL this season..

We are only three points behind 5th place and 6th place, Therefore there are only three points separating 15th place right up to 5th place.
The VAR incident at Brighton, really did cost us the game, that three points puts us in the top six and the conversations become very different.

I'm not excusing some very dire performances from Everton but there are a lot of under performing teams.
Another fact ( I haven't compared opposition ) we have won one more game than Spurs and the same amount of games as Arsenal and Man Utd.

In six weeks time, as 2020 dawns and we have played another eight league games and one cup game, including Liverpool, Leicester (twice), Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal we really will know whether patience is a virtue or sheer tomfoolery.

I don't know if Marco Silva is the man.

But if we sack him and get someone else, it's another 100 -200 million and will that work?

I enjoyed the post. I went to the same school as Colin Harvey, Cardinal Allen Grammar school, He was playing for Everton by the time I got there in 1964.
It was the only school in Liverpool that didn't play football. We played in the yard at break and lunchtime. But the school played rugby union. I knew nothing about the game.

One of the teachers was an ex-England and Barbarians player. It shows you how unique Colin Harvey was, no coaching in football at school, just bloody union.

After I left school the only union I was ever involved with again was a trade union.

Everton, putting a big wide smile on your dial, or breaking your heart, since 1878.

Eddie Dunn
4 Posted 19/11/2019 at 09:19:59
Three of the payers you name Scheiderlin, Walcott and Lookman were not sourced from abroad. All were plying their trade here and the first two had fallen down the pecking order at their respective clubs.
I would suggest that wages don't come into it, as I doubt Lookman was on big bucks, but one pattern is the quality. Iwobi was a bit-part player at Arsenal, Sigurdsson had failed at Spurs and was a big fish in a little bowl at Swansea. Gnabin was in a mid-table French team, and then there are the guys who couldn't get into the Barca side( Iknow that is forgivable but they still were bench-warmers).
Young lads like Kean, and Lookman are not the finished article.
We are buying at Marks and Spencer while City and Liverpool can shop at Saville Row.
The pressures on staying in the top flight mean coaches are reluctant to stick with the kids. It's all short termism.
However, partly due to the transfer embargo and partly because they have hoovered-up so many good youngsters, Chelsea are showing everyone that it can work.
Derek Thomas
5 Posted 19/11/2019 at 09:59:18
Alan J @ 2; We bailed out Walsall by buying Bernie the Bolt...thats a first, I never knew that. I always thought it was a rash decision on the strength of his performance in the cup game where he put himself about a bit - well quite a lot actually, rip, shit and bust covered it.

Not that I doubt you for a minute, but by virtue of my Surname...and the fact I'm a walking stereotype and can't help myself, I'd like a confirmation on that.

I remember Kendall's debut, you could see he was good but was maybe trying too hard. He wasn't helped by;
a) Ousting crowd favourite Jimmy Gabriel and...
b) Missing an open goal from 6yds in front of the Gwladys St.

But (on the OP)...does lightening strike twice, past performance is no guarantee of future performance, etc.
There can only be by definition, be one Kevin Brock moment.

For every Harvey and Husband that comes through there are ten that don't.

Catterick and Kendall to some extent, had the good luck to get International grade youngsters coming through...the fact that some got little or no England recognition is neither here nor there and for another day...all mixed in with bargins and the odd big money signings.

They say you make your own luck...Kendall Mk II & III, shows there is no magic formula.

I'm not sure Silva even has a formula and I don't think he's lucky. Nor am I sure this whole DoF formula is correct either.

Patience is in short supply nowadays...even from people old enough to remember and know better.

Who knows how much Moshiri has left...until we stumble over the line in May is my guess...and after that its who can tell.


Alasdair Jones
6 Posted 19/11/2019 at 10:49:39
Firstly apologies to all readers but there appears to be no para spacings as originally written.

To those who have posted comment so far there is little there I do not agree with. Ultimately we live in different times, for better or for worse.

I agree with Eddie's observation re modern day Chelsea. I suspect that the recent introduction of youngsters had a lot to do with Lampard coming in as manager as well as the embargo. Some of those lads have been knocking on the door for some time however during which time they got the odd appearance.

I smiled at the recollections about Bernie Wright. What a curious signing. I think by then HC was suffering from declining health. which if I recall correctly may have first come to the fore on Cup Semi-Final Day in 1971 when he was notable by his absence.

Brian Harrison
7 Posted 19/11/2019 at 13:11:17
Alasdair

Seeing your post is titled patience, I thought I would list the honours that we have won since I started going the game in 1957 and what our neighbours have won in the same timescale. Bearing in mind that they were still in the old 2nd division when I started watching the blues in the top division.

LIVERPOOL TROPHIES
1ST Division winners,
1965/66, 72/73, 75/76, 76/77, 78/79, 79/80, 81/82, 82/83, 85/86, 87/88, 89/90

FA Cup winners
1964/65, 73/74, 85/86, 88/89, 91/92, 2000/01, 2005/06.

League Cup winners
1980/81, 81/82, 82/83, 83/84, 94/95, 2000/01, 2002/3, 2011/12

European cup/ Champions league winners
1976/77, 77/78, 80/81, 83/84, 2004/05, 2018/19

UEFA Cuo winners
1972/73, 75/76, 2000/01.

EVERTON TROPHIES
1st Division winners
1962/63, 69/70, 83/84, 86/87

FA Cup winners
1965/66, 83/84, 94/95

European Cup winners Cup
1984/85

The sad thing is that my generation is supposedly the lucky generation seeing some of our best teams. I think our fans have shown patience over the years, and non more so than todays younger fans. Its not patience we need its trophies.

Mark Guglielmo
8 Posted 19/11/2019 at 13:46:56
Brian, don't spend so much time worrying about, or comparing us to Liverpool. It's only going to give you agita (as my dearly departed Grandma used to say). You seem like a nice guy, I don't want you to have agita. 🙂
Stan Schofield
9 Posted 19/11/2019 at 14:00:41
After Martinez' first season, our football has been fairly awful apart from isolated flourishes. One or two games under Koeman were characterised by cohesion and fluid football through midfield, but most of the other games were quite tedious. Games under Allardyce were never characterised by entertaining football, from what I recall.

Under Silva, we have had more games where the football is fluid and entertaining. To be sure, they are fewer games than the ineffective, slow and dull ones with too many sideways and back passes, but they happened nonetheless. Some of the best were against top-6 sides, and the one at Anfield seemed to silence all the reds I know, even with the goalkeeping blunder.

The nature of these relatively good performances has made Silva's presence a tantalising one, certainly in my eyes. They make me think, we can do it, we can compete with the best, but we just need more consistency. Also, bad luck with injuries, and some appalling officiating against us, adds to my thought that we could come good under Silva if our luck changes and we see better officiating. Every team needs luck, and officials to be 'reasonably fair', otherwise it's a struggle.

The above is my own reasoning for having patience with Silva, a belief that there are reasons to think that we could well come good, especially with better luck etc. The alternative is to dispense with him, and basically start all over again with a new manager, which carries its own risks, as we're all too aware from the previous three incumbents.

In terms of the account of how we developed in the 60s, there are definite similarities, in terms of building a side, bedding new signings in, and gradually gelling as a team, towards an identifiable and consistent style. We have some high quality players who would easily perform better in well-functioning sides, and who would easily find a place in top-6 sides. They just need to gel consistently, aided by better luck. Plus, we probably need two or three further quality signings to provide the strength in depth that would give a greater chance of consistency, especially in light of injuries.

Stan Schofield
10 Posted 19/11/2019 at 15:00:50
Brian@7: I don't think there is anything sad about Everton. Frustrating for Evertonians, and irritating to see the other lot win stuff, but not sad. We were indeed lucky. I've witnessed 8 trophies, and from a quality viewpoint the 60s sides are unequalled for great football apart from the current City side. Supporters of most other teams would love to be in our position.

Being 'mediocre' is clearly unacceptable to Evertonians, which to me simply underlines just how good we were when we were good. When you compare us to Liverpool, you're comparing us to the second most successful British club of all time. It's a pain in the arse, especially if you live amongst that lot, but not sad, not by a long way.

Kevin Prytherch
11 Posted 19/11/2019 at 15:56:50
I’d be more inclined to show more patience with the current setup if I could see where it was going...

If Davies has been played on merit rather than when injuries took ever.

Likewise with Holgate, Kenny etc...

If off form players were out quicker, if we looked like we even had half an answer to playing against poorer teams, if substitutions didn’t consist of throwing everyone up front and hoping for the best...

At present I have very little patience because we plod on with a tried and tested unsuccessful formation, labour on with perennial under achieving mercenaries playing week in week out, persist in ignoring a successful youth setup, watch dumbfounded as we end up playing a 3-1-6 formation searching for a goal.

What will being patient with Sigurdsson, Schneiderlin and Walcott get us? (And to some extent Tosun and Keane). I’m more prepared to be patient with Brands as there is real potential in Digne, Mina, Gomes, and Kean.

Russell Smith
12 Posted 19/11/2019 at 16:52:40
I was lucky enough to see both the Catterick side developing from 1967 through to 1971, and Kendall's side in the mid-eighties.
I think Alasdair is correct that Catterick had 4 years to mould "his" team, due in part from the FA cup win in 1966 giving him some breathing space, but without the constant 24hr pressure that all managers suffer in the current world.
As mentioned above Kendall was living on borrowed time when "his" team finally clicked, some 3 years, and quite a few dud signings, later. But in the eighties whilst the press were fierce there was not the constant "doubts" being raised by pundits on an almost daily basis coupled with 24hr news coverage.
In the current world neither of these two great managers would have survived long enough to become great managers.
When Allardyce was in charge many contributors on this site talked about bringing in someone fresh and giving them time to correct all the miss buys, the ageing spine of the team, and the miserable football we were playing. We seem to have forgotten that within 18 months.
We have a terrible long term injury list to players who were bought to fit into "his" side. He wanted another centre half before the season started, he didn't get one, so has to make do with what he's got. He wanted a striker, the DoF bought Moise Kean based more on potential/resale value than on proven ability. So here again he is making do with what he has got.
Silva may not be the answer but, as with Catterick and Kendall, given time to mould "his" side he may just lead us back to the top spot.
Derek Knox
13 Posted 19/11/2019 at 17:23:11
Good and well researched article Alisdair, ah the good old days, which seems ages ago now, well come to think of it, it was ages ago sadly.

Unlike my fellow Tw'ers, I just can't see where Silva is taking us, and strongly believe, as I have since his appointment, that he is not the one to lead us anywhere but between mediocrity and the relegation trap-door.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

14 Posted 19/11/2019 at 18:13:13
Anyone watching Holland v England U-21?

Tom Davies dropped to the bench, Holland 1-0 up midway through the first half.

Watched the Brazil-South Korea game earlier today. Richarlison with 7 on his back played centre forward. Gabriel Jesus with 9 on his shirt played right sided forward.

Brazil arrested a 5 match winless run since lifting the Copa Sul Americano in July with a much needed 3-0 win. Brazil has been playing like Everton this season. Slow, ponderous build up and no incisiveness. Today, they were a little better.

Our boy whilst not doing much wrong, didn't really shine either. One of his quieter performances in a Brazil shirt. He played the full 90, but only got 10 minutes on Friday v Argentina. The games were in the Middle East, so not too long a haul back to the UK.

If possible, I strongly suggest people should try to watch the Libertadores final on SATURDAY (I've mistakenly been saying Wednesday in recent posts, mixing up my dates with the Copa Verde final - a competition here in Brazil - in which my father-in-law's team is playing).

If you do take in the game, look at Flamengo's Gabigol who, IMO, would be a very good fit with Everton. 23 goals and counting in the Brazilian League, 7 more in the Libertadores - Latin America's CL equivalent. Just turned 23-years-old, loan spell from Inter Milan ends in December, Flamengo could land him for €23 million.

Steve Ferns
15 Posted 19/11/2019 at 18:18:42
Why’s Davies on the bench? I hope it’s so he’s fresher for us.

Most of the players were back in training today, specifically the European internationals like Digne and Sigurdsson.

I believe Kean missed the Italy games so let’s hope he’s been spending extra time with the manager and there’s a better plan now on how to maximise his use.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

16 Posted 19/11/2019 at 18:18:52
BTW, link to the Holland-England game. It's on BT Sport for those who have it.

Link

Steve Ferns
17 Posted 19/11/2019 at 18:19:45
Wish I could watch it. I’m in hell, otherwise known as the Trafford Centre.
Jason Wilkinson
18 Posted 19/11/2019 at 19:07:26
Steve,
Has she put you in the man crèche? Aka the pub by the food hall. I presume you are with "her who must be obeyed" ??? If you aren't what on earth???
Joe McMahon
19 Posted 19/11/2019 at 19:45:55
Don't know where to put this, but Poch has just been sacked! We'll have him at Everton!
Brent Stephens
20 Posted 19/11/2019 at 19:49:57
Spurs sack Poch.
Stu Gore
21 Posted 19/11/2019 at 19:52:31
They’ll lose Kane in the summer and be back to being proper Spursy. Levy is the problem at that club.
Rob Halligan
22 Posted 19/11/2019 at 19:56:43
Joe #19. You're probably on the right thread, as clearly Levy has run out of Patience with Pochettino.
Steve Ferns
23 Posted 19/11/2019 at 19:58:24
Wow. Can’t believe Spurs have done that. And why wait 9 days into the international break? Surely you’d do it on day one?

Spurs need to make a good appointment otherwise they are going backwards fast.

Is there no such thing as credit in the bank for success anymore?

Brent Stephens
24 Posted 19/11/2019 at 20:01:36
Steve "Can’t believe Spurs have done that. And why wait 9 days into the international break?"

Maybe they've only just become aware that Silva is now available!! They'd be bound to go for him.

Steve Ferns
25 Posted 19/11/2019 at 20:04:02
Jason, worse mate. I’m carrying the bags and paying!

I’d swap for Pochettino, Brent. But it’s likely he’ll end up at Real Madrid.

Mark Guglielmo
26 Posted 19/11/2019 at 20:04:38
The next 'breaking news' headline will read: "Mourinho to take over as Spurs manager"

And Poch will go to Bayern, mark my words.

Derek Taylor
27 Posted 19/11/2019 at 20:09:33
Alan @2; You can take it from me, Harry Catterick had nothing to do with the drastic signing of Bernie Wright in 1972.

I met The Catt only once and that was at a Sportsman's Dinner at Deepdale when he was manager of PNE in the mid-seventies.
Contrary to all my expectations, I found him to be most affable and more than prepared to talk to me and my fellow guests about his glory days with Everton. Strong drink had made brave one of my fellow guests ( a RS ! ) and he decided to take the' gypsy's kiss'. The names of Kay and Wright were brought into the conversation and whilst Harry was loathe to offer much more than a gesture at the mention of the former, he was very anxious to tell us that he' had nothing to do with the signing of Wright but everything to do with his quick departure! Without naming Tommy Eggleston, he told us that 'a caretaker' had been put in charge whilst he was off sick and, not impressed with David Johnson, he had taken Everton's Midlands scout's recommendation to sign Wright. Apparently, he, Catterick, had seen enough of him' arsing about' in just a couple of training sessions at Belfield to literally chase him off the premises !

Subsequently, a number of our players have confirmed to me that was exactly how Bernie 'got the bolt !'

paul davies
28 Posted 19/11/2019 at 20:11:08
Spurs must have someone lined up not Mourinho too big a personality for Levy.
Tony Hill
29 Posted 19/11/2019 at 20:18:06
Paul,@28, Nagelsmann has been mentioned today. Who knows? I've always thought Levy wasn't quite the full shilling.
Bill Gall
30 Posted 19/11/2019 at 20:31:11
Typical behavior from a top six side when they start to struggle. Shows that their finances are set up with top six finish and European cup qualification.
Levy is already starting to worry with what he believes is a financial loss unless improvements are shown.
Unless they had someone already lined up I think any other manager who is approached will be very weary of taking over Spurs considering Poch's record and his be given no chance to turn their season around.
Liam Reilly
31 Posted 19/11/2019 at 20:32:59
Can't believe they've sacked Pochettino. Best manager in the league in my opinion, outside of Klippety. Would put Rogers up in that category also.

I'd like Silva to succeed and think he needs more time, but it's rare such a Manager would become available.

He'll not be short of suitors.

Lenny Jameson
32 Posted 19/11/2019 at 20:34:34
Mr. Taylor (27)
Just a note.
It was Tommy Casey who was the caretaker manager who signed Bernie Wright. I think Catterick sacked him when he got well and saw how bad Bernie was!!!
Mark Guglielmo
33 Posted 19/11/2019 at 20:46:06
Liam @31 hang on a second here... "Can't believe they've sacked Pochettino. Best manager in the league in my opinion, outside of Klippety. Would put Rogers up in that category also."

So you don't even have Pep in the top 3? Not sure what to think about that other than most would consider him the best manager in the world, let alone the EPL. Did you forget him by chance?

edit: in other news, Kean has 2 1st half goals for Italy's U21 side today (in the Euro qualifying rounds).

Paul Birmingham
34 Posted 19/11/2019 at 21:03:44
That’s staggering based on his achievements but it seems that their dip in form and perhaps losing momentum during this year and the RS doing them in the Champions League, probably hasn’t helped.

Levy has always been an axe man when he deems right. Maybe the preseason antics may have broken the players spirit.

Well likely never know.

Let’s hope we can beat Norwich well on Saturday.

Steve Ferns
35 Posted 19/11/2019 at 21:23:27
Tony @29, I can’t see julien Nagelsmann walking out on Leipzig just 4 months into taking the job. Maybe in the summer, but even then, he turned down Bayern’s advances before to complete his project.

Mark @33, Guardiola is probably my pick for worlds greatest. That said, he’s never proved he can build something other than take a great side to even more greatness, which very few in history have done.

Kevin Latham
36 Posted 19/11/2019 at 21:30:55
I posted this on another thread but it’s probably more appropriate on this one.

So Pochettino is now available. Maybe a test of our ambition would be to try to replace Silva with him. When Klopp became available the rs were doing fairly well under Rodgers but they didn’t think twice about kicking him into touch for Klopp, and look what happened. This is what real ambition is about, even though Rodgers had nearly won them the league - but somehow I think that plucky old Everton will labour on. and on

Mark Guglielmo
37 Posted 19/11/2019 at 21:43:29
Steve @35, it's worth noting that he's never been asked to do that though, so we really can't say. How's the saying go? You can only be judged by the body of evidence.
Drew O'Neall
38 Posted 19/11/2019 at 21:48:39
How’s what saying go?
Steve Ferns
39 Posted 19/11/2019 at 21:49:30
Agreed Mark which is why I’d say he’s probably the worlds best.

Kevin, answered you on the other thread. How can we get him here ahead of Real Madrid, Bayern Munich ant Man Utd. We can’t offer more wages, more transfer funds and we definitely can’t offer champions league football.

Sam Hoare
40 Posted 19/11/2019 at 22:00:15
Steve F, will those teams necessarily want him now though? He’s still not won anything and this season has been disastrous for Spurs.

Most of those teams will want managers with trophies on their record.

I’m not saying it’s at all likely he’ll end up with us or a team of similar caliber but I don’t think it’s impossible.

Kevin Prytherch
41 Posted 19/11/2019 at 22:02:53
How good is Pochettino? He’s lived off the back of Harry Kane for 4 years. Would Spurs have been even half the team without him and would Pochettino have even half the reputation without him?
Steve Ferns
42 Posted 19/11/2019 at 22:05:53
Sam, Bayern have a vacancy right now. Real have been after him for a while now. Man Utd too. They might not have a vacancy right now but neither are far off. Zidane left Real due to clashes with the president and it’s only a couple of bad results before they part company again. Man Utd would jump at the chance to get Pochettino in. A short break “to give Ole time” and a holiday for Pochettino until they hit another bump in the road might suit all concerned.

So yes, I think all three will be on the phone to him already.

Steve Ferns
43 Posted 19/11/2019 at 22:12:06
Kevin, go on twitter and ask some spurs fans. Let me know how you get on!
Kevin Latham
44 Posted 19/11/2019 at 22:17:54
Steve, I take your point, but who knows, he might want to stay in the Premier league. Real Madrid don’t keep managers long whatever they win so it might not necessarily be his preferred option, and Man U seem happy with OGS as they’re currently a work in progress. Bayern, well maybe. I know I’ve put a couple of ‘mights’ in here but you just never know in football. But that aside, unless Silva can turn the corner big time and make us truly competitive - surely something we all want him to do as Evertonians - then if we stay outside the Champions League we’d never be able to attract a top class manager in the future. And I think that’s what frustrates me, the thought of this great club accepting second best. I just want, I really want, Silva to prove me wrong and put us back at the top table and I’d have no problem in holding my hands up and asking ‘Whatever happened to that Pochettino fella?’
Steve Ferns
45 Posted 19/11/2019 at 22:20:50
Kevin, I just get the feeling that Man Utd don’t want to be seen as a sacking club. However, Pochettino is exactly what they need. A man who can take a team that’s outside the top 4 and put them back there. They would hope with their resources and their academy he can bring success on top of that. I think with their resources and the wages they will offer, he won’t say no. I think the job is perfect for him.
Sam Hoare
46 Posted 19/11/2019 at 22:21:28
Steve, I wouldn’t bet against what you say. But I think it may be a bit less clear cut than it looked about 6 months ago. I think all of those teams might have some reservations about him now and there are a lot of good, available managers out there who have won more than him: Mourinho, Allegri, Ancellotti, Wenger etc possibly Emery soon. Poch’s star has fallen somewhat and most of those clubs may want someone in the ascendancy. Time will tell
Steve Ferns
47 Posted 19/11/2019 at 22:27:43
Mourinho is far from in the ascendancy. Allegri is finding he's not got the kudos he thought he’d have. The biggest clubs seem to dismiss his honour roll like he’s been manager of Celtic or something. Also, they point to his less than exciting brand of football.

Ancelotti’s star has been on the wane for a little while now. Interestingly Napoli is a mess right now and it looks like his relationship with the President is in tatters. I therefore think he’s a very real possibility for Spurs.

Wenger is now in full time employment and works for UEFA or something and made it sound like that’s it for him. Emery would be far behind Pochettino for any job.

Pochettino to Man Utd seems nailed on to me. They can wait until Christmas and wait for Solskjaer to mess up further meantime Pochettino recharges his batteries. Maybe they even do a deal now for the summer and give Solskjaer the chance to see the season out and bow out with a bit of pride.

Trevor Peers
48 Posted 19/11/2019 at 22:38:58
Most of us have long since ran out of patience with Silva. Moshiri has probably ran out of it too. The club now seems to be paralyzed by indecision.

The problem is easy enough to understand, we have had three bad managers on the run and there is no obvious better replacement who will take the job, or any easy answers to our long term march into mediocrity.

Spurs stock however, has risen for many seasons now, so
ironically, they are able to sack the very manager many of us have craved for and will get a good replacement, just wait and see.

Anthony Murphy
49 Posted 19/11/2019 at 23:04:16
Talkshite saying Spurs to conclude Maureen deal tomorrow
Tom Bowers
50 Posted 19/11/2019 at 23:05:05
Pretty sure the revolving door will keep turning at other clubs now where results are going wrong.
With Poch. going what price some of the others much lower in the table getting the shove?
Poch did have some success and it is somewhat of a surprise they didn't give him a little longer but I think eyebrows were being raised a while back when Erikson was left out and then started talking about moving. Whilst that may have been only one question about some of Spurs results as Erikson is a key player (much like David Silva at City) they have only been a shadow of the team they were last season.

Spurs probably have the replacement lined up already but sadly it won't be Silva at Everton. (boo-hoo)

Kevin Prytherch
51 Posted 19/11/2019 at 23:05:53
Steve 43 - ask former clubs how good Ranieri was. Just because Spurs fans like him doesn’t mean he was as good as people make out.

He struck lucky having one of the best English goal scorers ever (who he only made a regular after he started scoring in the Europa league and was hounded by fans into playing him) He also walked into Christian Erickson.

He has also struggled repeatedly when it matters most and the wheels have well and truly fallen off this last year.

Maybe he’s not quite as good as some make out and has been a happy benefactor of circumstance.

Steve Ferns
52 Posted 19/11/2019 at 23:12:59
Ranieri is a peculiar one. He's like marmite. Some love him. Some hate him. Some think he's great. Some think he's overrated.

Leicester performed a miracle. It had three men at the centre of it. Raneiri, Shakespeare and Walsh. The latter two we picked up shortly afterwards. Clearly they were less effective than we thought. So, that leaves Ranieri or the biggest piece of luck football has ever seen.

Mark Guglielmo
53 Posted 19/11/2019 at 23:17:15
FWIW, Bayern has been in love from afar with Poch for a long time. I've seen odds (if you care about those things) that have had him squarely in the "favorite" spot for their next manager long before today's sacking. Even before they sacked Kovac.

Trevor @48 "Moshiri has probably ran out of it too." Curious what you're basing this on?

Lee Paige
54 Posted 19/11/2019 at 23:29:14
Poch please.
Trevor Peers
55 Posted 19/11/2019 at 23:35:42
Mark#53.
Probably our league position Mark, I think Moshiri was hoping we might be in the top six by now, not the bottom six.
Stan Schofield
56 Posted 19/11/2019 at 23:51:35
Pochettino brought Spurs up to the level of a 'nearly team' who never actually win anything. Liverpool are not much better than that, and their supporters are only now becoming less frustrated than they've been for a long time. If they fail to win the Premier League this season, who knows, perhaps Klopp could be sacked. Liverpool supporters were calling for his head only two seasons ago, they're a fickle lot, like most supporters.

Clearly the best manager in the Premier League, by a country mile, is Guardiola. City win loads of silverware, and do it in style, with real footballing panache. In comparison, the rest are ordinary. Pochettino being sacked is no surprise.

Regarding Ranieri, he was certainly a lucky benefactor of circumstance. Leicester made good use of the luck to be sure (with the top teams of Utd, City and Chelsea performing well under par), but luck it most definitely was.

Jason Wilkinson
57 Posted 19/11/2019 at 23:59:36
Poch has not become a shit coach/manager overnight. There have been rumblings coming from him prior to Spurs CL final.
Any coach/manager needs three things to happen.
1/ Some top quality youngsters to come through the academy.
2/ Some quality signings who achieve far better than expectation.
3/ An injury free campaign (starting 14-16 players)
Poch, Klopp and Pep have had all the above.
Ranieri had a similar situation at LCFC.
We have had DCL, Tom, Jonjoe and Barkley.
As for signings out stripping their expected performance er!!! Rom?
Injury free campaign? The A&E at the Royal is quieter than our physio room.

Jer Kiernan
58 Posted 19/11/2019 at 00:02:06
I think it was Jack Charlton who said about management that after about 5yrs players tend to stop listening, I think Poch is a top coach and man manager but is the right move for both parties

They both come away without too much damage to their reputations, Poch will still be in high demand and Spuds get to send out a message that they have very high standards and don't (unlike some clubs) do sentimentality

i have begrudging admiration for Levy also I must admit, he has great business acumen and is not afraid to make a call

Although I feel he didnt back Poch just when they were making that last big step, however Levy would point to the impressive new stadium

Sooner or later somebody has to take a punt on Eddie Howe, I am hoping it will be us

Derek Thomas
59 Posted 20/11/2019 at 00:36:33
Mark @ 26; That frees up Pep and Arteta for us in June.

WHU to get the Spurs 'new manager' bounce.

The manager merry go round will start, when the music stops and the picking's done, we'll be left with the fat kid with the glasses - or Silva.

Go speccy, lead us to glory.

Mike Gaynes
60 Posted 20/11/2019 at 00:43:55
Hey, you know, another well-known manager became available today as well. World Cup winner, Serie A Champion, could certainly teach our strikers something about finishing. With any body part available.

And yes, I'm kidding.

Don Alexander
61 Posted 20/11/2019 at 00:49:01
Re Spurs, Levy & Pochettino, the fact is that they're both minions of billionaire Joe Lewis, whose wealth is at least double that of Moshiri's, and possibly triple or quadruple it.

Lewis owns the club, ground, brand and whatever else is Spurs but, with his wealth, can afford not to fanny about when things start going pear-shaped.

We, as we know, are nowhere close to that situation. We fans/supporters have to endure year-on-year ineptitude at the top of the club whilst we close in on 25 years without a trophy, in an inadequate ground.

Still, there's only a few weeks max to go before the Bramley-Moore Dock planning application goes public, so what's to worry about... eh?

Mark Guglielmo
62 Posted 20/11/2019 at 01:49:57
Trevor @55, that may be it. Do you think he also knows we're closer to 5th than 18th on points?

Derek @59, while that was a good one, I'd drive the black car to greet Pep & Arteta at Finch Farm, and you can serve them cocktails. Wait, you better drive and I'll serve cocktails. Wrong side of the road and all :)

Oh, and the latest swirling rumor is that WHU is going to go after Rafa.

Alan J Thompson
63 Posted 20/11/2019 at 02:21:46
Derek (#27) & Lenny (#32); I was told at the time of the circumstances of Wright's signing by a journalist and I'm not too sure you have that right about his departure.

If memory serves, he was one of three players involved with young ladies from Holy Cross, I think, at training and two of whom were transferred out almost immediately while the third was a lot more difficult to replace.

If anyone has a clearer recollection, then I'll stand corrected but those were my recollections.

John Boon
64 Posted 20/11/2019 at 04:55:31
Steve Ferns, you amaze me. You recently wrote an interesting and thought provoking fan article, "Not as bad as you might think". Well written and deserving of the responses you garnered. You even replied to many of those who agreed or disagreed with you.

Now another fan Allasdair writes his own sincere and well presented article which I read and appreciated. I hope he knows that. You have since presented eleven (I counted them) responses supposedly about his article.NOT ONE was about his fine presentation but all about what you think about various managers etc etc etc

To me you have reached far beyond the sublime degree of arrogance. Do you really think you are the only Evertonian in the room? You always have lots to say, some of it worthwhile. Please respect other contributers. IT WAS HIS ARTICLE not yours.

Jim Bennings
65 Posted 20/11/2019 at 08:02:56
Marco Silva can really make a name for himself in December and remove any instant pressure by picking up points in these big games.

December shaped our season last year, it destroyed us for three months.

Hopefully lessons are learned and we can really go out there and do something.

Poor start to the season well now is our chance to really put that right.

Alasdair Jones
66 Posted 20/11/2019 at 09:28:41
Oh dear. I trust I will not be marked down as psychic in some way following Mr Levys impatient sacking of a manager who did some good things for Spurs and navigated/sustained a Spurs team through the difficulties of a stadium move including having to adjust to playing at Wembley. And Final of the European Cup. What more does he want.

I gather Mourinho has been appointed in his stead. Well there's a man with little or no patience. He is capable of falling out with the team and Mr Levy at the drop of a hat.

John@64. Thanks for your supportive remarks. However I am not in any way disturbed that my posting has provided a hook for numerous comments re the Spurs debacle.

Thanks also for the comments of Mark, Lenny and others about who should take the can for signing Bernie Wright. I saw him play for the Blues at Coventry and was dismayed that the management thought he was fit to wear a Royal Blue Shirt.


Steve Ferns
67 Posted 20/11/2019 at 09:32:41
Thanks for your positive feedback on my recent article John. It is appreciated since most of it was more than negative. As for Alasdair's article, I didn't disagree with any of it. Regarding the Pochettino stuff, if I was the first poster with reference to that, I would have filed it under the "Premier League" thread. I expect Michael and Lyndon might well tidy up the threads later. I meant no offence to Alasdair for hi-jacking his thread and for causing you offence.
Steve Ferns
68 Posted 20/11/2019 at 09:40:03
Could not agree more Alasdair. I remember raising the point of "credit in the bank" when Martinez was being criticised in his second season. How much time does your previous good work buy you to turn things around?

David Moyes was given plenty of chances, his bad season after 7th (when we finished 17th) and then the collapse after we finished 4th (when we recovered to 11th - I think). He ultimately repaid the faith by delivering consistent top 6 finishes.

Whether or not he over stayed his welcome by failing to break through the glass ceiling is a different story.

I think if you give a decent manager time they will get things right. And as for Pochettino, I think Spurs have done the wrong thing, not only sacking one of the best managers in the world, but also by replacing him with the wrong one.

Steve Brown
69 Posted 20/11/2019 at 09:57:11
Alasdair, great article and it sets out eloquently the development of the 1970 title-winning team that was built and bought from young talent over a period of 6 years. This great team was before my time, but I see parallels with the incremental steps that Howard Kendall took to build a young title-winning side in 1985.

As Mark @ 1 says, patience is very hard now in the social media age of instant news, reactions and mob hysteria. But a clear-headed strategy built on developing young talent is sustainable, as Borussia Dortmund have demonstrated over many years.

On Pochettino, a Champions League final and four successive top-four finishes in 5 years - all with a £95 million net spend due to the one billion stadium costs. He is an extraordinary manager and the Levy - Mourinho relationship has "car crash" written all over it.

I would love Pochettino at Everton, but doubt he would want to step into the same "stadium-financing" limitations to squad development that he has just experienced.

Jerome Shields
70 Posted 20/11/2019 at 10:33:27
This is an interesting and thought-provoking article, Alasdair. I can remember the under heralded, as I remember, winning of the League in 1970. I also remember the 1968 FA final against West Brom and Tony Brown's sickening goal, which on reflection scared me for life.

Catterick did gradually get the right mix of players, as you suggest. His sides where always consistently competitive and a handful to play against. Catterick as a Manager was competitive at the top of the game at that time. What's more, he proved it. The Club had a winning mentality at that time, which today only exists amongst fans who where brought up on the mentality of that era and the 80s.

Everton as a Club are now defined by their Premier League position and whether they are top this or that – or aiming at top this or that. In the successful era you have mentioned, Everton's aim was to win any competition it entered and they had the overall management to do it.

During the Kenwright era, the sole aim was to stay in the Premier League and employ glass-ceiling managers. In some cases, it was hoped that the manager may perform beyond it, on glass-ceiling expectations and budget. Instead of staying where they were, Everton started to slip into the era of no investment in facilities, players or management. Everton became a selling Club. Everton needed a billionaire to fill up the bare cupboard as a result of the poor management who squandered its contents.

So the situation is that Everton are in the middle of a three-year plan to set the foundations of a winning club. The manager they have is the only suitable manager and there isn't the stomach or an available manager to rep!ace him, to start the three-year plan over again. What's more internally most believe that Everton's main objective is to survive in the Premier League – probably the lowest acceptable achievement that the new owner would accept in his overall plan. Which is the highest level of achievement that most of the Everton management is capable off.

How does this compare with Tottenham? Pochettino is a similar Silva-type placement. Brought in to build a team that would challenge in the top four. He was very successful in doing this and Tottenham's projected prosperity was enough to finance a new Stadium, but the previous glass-ceiling expectations that existed before Pochettino arrived proved restrictive in bringing Tottenham to the next level – the winning mentality level.

Their European Cup final performance was of a tired-looking side way beyond any performance peak. Employing Mourinho is not going to make that much difference, because the mentality of the club has not changed.

In Everton's case, there will be expectations of Everton moving to the next level next season. This will only happen if there is a wholesale change in competitive performance and attitude. Silva would need to be thinking of showing signs of such a change this season.

Pochettino's mistake was accepting Tottenham's club mentality and not moving on. Maybe he didn't have any offers, though there were rumours he was looking. Silva will have to decide at the end of his contract whether it is time to move on and Moshiri will have to decide if he wants to move to the next level or is the present manager suitable?

Moshiri is probably happy with his Everton investment, more valuable shares, and a front seat in a Dockland development, but it will become apparent that Everton as a club will have to move to a higher level, if he is to realise more profits.

Patience is necessary. . . winning is a must.

Eric Myles
71 Posted 20/11/2019 at 12:39:11
Jerome #70, if you remember Tony Brown's goal in the 1968 FA Cup Final, then you were dreaming it or watching a different game to the rest of us.
Eric Myles
72 Posted 20/11/2019 at 12:42:36
Eddie #4, not only were Walcott and Lookman not sourced from abroad, they are both English and had never played abroad before joining us.
Stan Schofield
73 Posted 20/11/2019 at 12:57:02
It was Jeff Astle who scored in the 1968 FA Cup Final. I also remember Jimmy Husband heading over in front of an open goal.
Bill Gall
74 Posted 20/11/2019 at 12:58:49
I was at the 1968 final against West Brom I am not sure if I spell it rite but I thought I was sickened by the J.Astle goal
Jerome Shields
75 Posted 20/11/2019 at 13:03:05
Eric, you are right. It was Jeff Astle's goal. Tony Brown tortured us on the left wing. His performance just stuck in my mind over the years.
Tom Bowers
76 Posted 20/11/2019 at 13:54:34
That West Brom final was sickening. We had beaten them twice in the league but somehow I knew it was not going to be good once it went to extra time. One heave of the boot and Astle did us in.
Tony Hill
78 Posted 20/11/2019 at 15:50:24
One of the very few goals Jeff ever scored with his left foot in the 68 final. He famously missed a big chance for England against Brazil in that fine game in 1970.

As for the neurological issues, Steve, I don't have any knowledge but it's obviously sad to see footballers who suffer in later life. A significant number seem to do so in a variety of ways and they certainly took a battering in the 70s. They still do, I guess.

Does it happen in rugby where you would think head impacts are more consistent by far? How many boxers develop dementia?

Jay Harris
79 Posted 20/11/2019 at 16:20:13
I was only a young teenager at the 1968 cup final but if memory serves me right we totally dominated the game but couldnt break West Brom down unlike the two previous league games then along comes Astle and knocked the stuffing out of us.
Tony Hill
80 Posted 20/11/2019 at 16:31:22
We did Jay, it was horrible. That was an excellent Everton team but you knew we were not going to score. Husband's miss was a shocker.
Ken Kneale
81 Posted 20/11/2019 at 20:38:49
Steve.

I note you say David Moyes was given time but in reality it was treading water or going backwards and was typical of the mentality and approach of the Kenwright era which is characterised by our reduced status as a footballing institution. I am of the view that Moyes was part of the problem in that overall approach with his predominantly negative tactics and love of playing the underdog.

I have little faith in Silva but if your optimism is proved correct and he can develop a front-foot team that restores Everton as a footballing force, I will be the first to buy the man a drink!

Steve Ferns
82 Posted 20/11/2019 at 20:49:40
Ken where were we when Moyes took over? Because we were towards the bottom, and he left us a team that regularly finished 5th to 8th. If you want to say that he could only take us so far, then yes I wholeheartedly agree. But Moyes mainly took us forwards, as to go backwards would have been to go down, surely.

Anyway, I think Silva is more suited to breaking through that glass ceiling that Moyes could not and I still believe he will.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

83 Posted 20/11/2019 at 21:21:47
David Moyes did well at Everton, given the considerable constraints he operated under. That said, he also did very well out of Everton also. 11 years without a trophy and seldom competing in Europe on league position. Nice work, if you can get it, with no threat of the sack in all those years.

Between them, Moyes and Kenwright established an accepted narrative of 'plucky little Everton, punching above their weight'. It enabled both of them to cast themselves in a good light.

And all the while our historical peers and competitors were running away in the distance, over the horizon, whilst other lesser clubs caught us up and indeed overtook us.

'Patience' is the title of this thread. Everton has reduced most of us to be 'Patients', more's the pity.

Ken Kneale
84 Posted 20/11/2019 at 21:27:16
Jay – that last line is comedy and tragedy and oh so true!
Jerome Shields
85 Posted 20/11/2019 at 23:01:56
Jay #83,

That's exactly what happened.

David Thomas
86 Posted 21/11/2019 at 07:36:40
From 61 to 70 we won the league twice. We also finished outside the top 6 once in that period and from memory that season we won the FA Cup.

I don't think you could honestly say Silva should be afforded patience because Catterick was showed some apparently. The man won 2 league titles and the FA Cup within 7 or 8 years. Does anyone honestly expect Silva to get anywhere near what Catterick achieved?

Derek Taylor
87 Posted 21/11/2019 at 19:15:38
It could be said that 'patience' has got us where we are today. Nine trophies in 65 years is obviously seen as success by the many! But sadly laughable when judged against the achievements of certain other clubs who claim to be great!

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