Sack Marco? Not Now

I can't see us attracting a top-notch manager, so we're in the market for an up and coming guy, or someone on the way down. That means it's like buying a lottery ticket, hoping you get it right. Many clubs above us in the table have gone through a few before finding the right one.

Moshiri really wanted Koeman, yet still sacked him three months after giving him a blank cheque. Should he have had more time?

I regarded Silva as a punt on a younger manager with a patchy, streaky record in England. I hoped he'd do better with a bigger budget and better players. He isn't.

I always pride myself on being an optimistic second/third chance person.
He's floundering right now. He's had his chances with me.

I'm done with Silva because he doesn't appear to learn from his mistakes. Away matches have essentially been the same since he arrived; we dominate the first 20 or so minutes, create and miss chances and then concede. After 60/70 minutes Silva makes his usual chaotic substitutions and the side loses any shape it had. Yesterday, we saw this transferred to a home game.

Even during the good run, towards the end of last season, we had capitulations at Newcastle and Fulham.

Everyone comments on what a good coach he is at FF but Premier games aren't played there. If he can't set his team up properly and then cannot appear to change the direction of a game, when necessary, then we must change the manager.

The opening Prem fixtures were very kind to us but games against Palace, Villa, Bournemouth and Sheff Utd have yielded just a solitary point. That's relegation form and very worrying. We cannot afford to carry on like this until his situation becomes absolutely untenable (which it will).

Moshiris problem is that a top manager wont touch Everton with a bargepole, so you are left considering Dyce or Howe and I suspect neither is up to managing Everton. I really don't know were we go from here, I guess neither does Moshiri. Silva has lost his long time assistant and Brands failed miserably in letting Gueye go and failing to secure a top striker.

Our last DOF bought the lastest young thing from Spanish football, he was going to lead the line for years to come, sadly Sandro is back in Spain and still failing to find the net, but still trousering £ 100,000 per week.I would assume if we lose to Sheffield Wednesday and City and don't get anything from the Burnley then it would put untold pressure on Silva. And would you want this bunch of players to help you out of a crisis.

This isn't knee jerk, I just don't rate him.

I've watched the game for a long time and certainly don't possess any UEFA coaching badges, but a number of factors are apparent when watching this Everton team.

1] We must be the easiest team in the Premiership to play against. our build up play from the back is painfully slow. Mina passes across the back to Keane, who then passes it back to him, it eventually ends up with Coleman who try's one of his marauding runs (last seen in 2012).

By this time the opposition have two banks of four and five players spread across the pitch.

2] It's obvious we have little or no creativity, after lot's of possession, the opposition simply pick us off at will, a bit like waiting for the storm to subside, you kinda know it will huff and puff but not blow your house down.

3] When will Silva realise we don't have the player's to execute 'zonal marking'? I noticed Bournemouth's first goal last week, there wasn't just one player waiting to score with the header, there was actually another two lined up!!
4] All this coupled with Pickford's current form which isn't great, his apparent weakness is crosses from either wing, although the corner which resulted from Sheffield's first goal was difficult, he absolutely flapped at it.

Most evertonian's would be happy to just to see progress each season, I just don't see evidence of that under Silva.

It's not hard to do the match when you're averaging exactly 1 point per Premier League match... That's corresponds to 38 points for the season and definitely puts Everton in a relegation scrap.

Personally I'd give Silva a month to sort things out but no more time that that. There's got to be an end-time to Silva's time in charge if positive results aren't seen pretty soon.

Otherwise we could be dealing with one of the most expensive Championship sides of all-time!!!

1: Everton under Martinez always had upwards of 70% possession each game, and then lose to Stoke, West Brom etc.
2: Martinez had 15+ shots per game but we would still lose 1-nil or 2-nil
3: Martinez would press so high up the pitch, that teams like Leicester and Stoke would steal possession and score with one shot in the break
4: Everton under Martinez would have hundreds more passes than the opposition in areas of the pitch where we couldn't hurt a team and was boring to watch. It takes one pass to get the ball from our keeper, to their box, so why should the build up take so long? It never made sense.
5: Everton under Martinez was tepid and slow, it's the same under Silva
6: in Silvas tenure so far, we have let in 20 goals from set pieces which is the highest amount for a manager, Martinez was exactly the same because Baines told us that they don't practice them.
7: apart from Bernard, Coleman and Digne, almost all our squad are huge 6ft+ units, so why do many set pieces not get cleared by their heads???

There too many similarities

For me, basics like running faster, getting in the faces of their opponents when they are in possession, and pressing forward in numbers should be the basics, why don't we see that?

My ratings would be as follows

PICKFORD. (5) Jolly average, rubbish on crosses, too short to be commanding and far too indecisive, good distribution and decent shot stopper, nowt more.

COLEMAN. (4) Playing merely on memory, I love him but his legs have gone and he's never going to be what he was between 2010-15, can't get past a man anymore, crossing is awful and defensively not great.

MINA. (5) Erratic, at times bambi on ice, doesn't instill any real confidence amongst his teammates.

KEANE. (5) The partnership with Zouma gone to dust, looks a match made in hell partnering Mina and both guys turn like the QE2.

DIGNE. (7) Our most gifted ball player but he's not started the season well.

SCHNEIDERLIN. (3) Plays the game in a fuckin' circle radius of 10 yards, hasn't been over the halfway line for two years, what's the point in his selection in any game least of all Sheffield Utd?

DELPH. (6) Wants to do well, only player that has a voice, but just doesn't have the legs around him to help out, would have been great next to Gana but think he's going to struggle in this squad.

SIGURDSSON. (4) Having a horrible season so far, I did say in summer if his and Richarlison goals dried up then we'd struggle and my point is being proved.

BERNARD. (5) Some good things here and there but the lack of pace and strength at times really tells and just lacks that vital end product to be a top six player.

RICHARLISON. (5) Frustrates the life out of me, still feel he's wasted playing out wide.
Too much time spent bitching and rolling around the ground.
Not consistent enough to be a top six player as of yet.

KEAN. (4) Erratic, nowhere near ready, snatches at too much and frankly I just feel sorry for the lad coming in and because of our ineptitude in the transfer market the pressure on him to score 15 goals is immense, but he's not up to it yet.
We needed a experienced striker to share the burden, we failed to get one.

Subs.

IWOBI. (5) Started well, tries to make things happen but looks a little lost of where he's meant to be playing.

WALCOTT. (3) What's the point?

TOSUN. (3) Read Walcott.

Silva. (2) Regressing each week with the same tried and tested boring formation and tactics that you can read like a book.
Not brave enough and too reactive yet again rather than proactive with his substitutions. (Why not make a change at HT, why did two holding midfielders come out again for the second period?)

Nowhere near good enough.

I'm all prepared to get a top league and champions league manager but not at the expense of the club. Boom and bust not for me. What sold Manchester city? A new 60000 stadium ready to go. Let's get the new stadium in place first and increase our match day revenue.

Silva needs time. Next ten games will decide his future at our club. Sorry a top manager could get frustrated with this group of players and could have a negative impact. It's not about accepting middle of the road managers but let's be respectful of Martinez, koeman and allardyce. They have all helped us in our hour of need or tried to build something bigger. Their is a snobbery within our fan base that need a reality check. Once a big club but not in my lifetime supporting Everton.

Reality is we will have to be patient. Stay in the league, new stadium and go from there. Win a cup? Possible but everyone knows the league is out of two clubs that leaves two trophies. If Silva goes then a team of Moyes, unsworth, cahill, dyche, or bilic? A manager whom will role up his sleeves and get the team ready for battle each game. I don't see that and have not for a while.

There was a lot of work to be done at Everton and we are only halfway through the project, Silva will see out his contract as long as Premier League survival is not in doubt, I don't think that Moshiri and Brands will want to start again with a new Manager,

I trying to remain positive about the coming fixtures and hope we get the right response from the Management and players, As for the International break, I am in total dread, because they seem to have be retrograde step on Everton s progress,

I think what you say about Silva is true for many, changing again is too much.

I will disagree about what you describe as ‘on top' in the games we've lost. If you mean we have the ball, then yes, however we are utterly redundant when we have it. Too predictable, and we never sustain heavy pressure were everyone knows the goal is ‘just coming'. Sadly the system and Silva's tactics are instinctively counter attacking, yet we play with possession.

For me it's over and sadly it never really began.

I actually think the form of certain players is down to the formation we are playing, and that comes from the manager. I'd change him. He may have overseen the improvement of a few players but as a team we are going backwards.

I don't agree with your 5 for Bernard. I don't agree with Silva taking off him and Schneiderlin (who had an excellent game). Walcott came on a showed a touch of the class we know he has... he still has his speed for a start. He's just being asked to chase back into our own box because we play so wide. Siggy supports the striker because the wide players aren't close by... and that leaves a gap behind him to our other midfielders. As l said... Silva out. It wont get better. We are set up all wrong and how Silva cant see it. Urgh

We have skillful players. Full internationals. In their prime. We have proven scorers in Charlie, Tosun and Walcott and he persists in throwing the kids to the wolves instead of bringing them into a confident set up to improve in the right conditions.

I'm winding myself up. Not good.

You should play an inverted triangle with one back and two upfront, with Iwobi dropping back has he looks way more capable of holding the ball than Bernard. Bernard should be allowed to be near the front two; to make through and one-touch passes and running at the "left overs" to strike them.

You seem to forget the basics of footie, Marco: 80+% of goals come from winning the 2nd ball in the box, dude. So we should play something like this, and it kinda of make sense, if you think all the way back to Koeman and what he wanted to do and the strategy of recruitment in the last couple of years:

----------------Pickford--------------
----------------Holgate---------------
-----------Keane------Mina---------
---Richarlison-------------Digne--
----------------Gbamin---------------
-------------Iwobi---------------------
--------------------Bernard----------
-----Calvert-Lewin----Kean----------

Great report - feel very sorry for Uwe.

We must hope their money and influence can tempt a good manager as soon as possible and be lucky enough to keep the defeats to a minimum with Silver.

Let's hope that tomorrow evening we see a reaction!

PLaying him RB would be a terrible waste as he does his best work in and around the box where once again he is out top scorer so far. If anything he should be playing up front with DCL or Kean.

Other than that the formation you suggest is interesting and I'd like to see Iwobi played more centrally.

We obviously lack leadership, on and off the pitch, so start being ruthless. Drop Coleman, Sigurdsson and Kean (he should be an impact sub for now) and name Delph as capt. Sidibe and Davies need a run of games to see if they can add a bit of dynamism to the team.

Make Marco sweat and earn his wage. The standards have to be set by the owner/board. Right now we are a rudderless ship and we need guidance from above. Get yer fingers out, Moshiri/Brands.

They are probably looking ahead as you suggest, but I can't see them taking any decisions till the end of next year, when Silvas contract is up,

Dyche or Howe both are Polar opposites.

Dyche likes his teams to graft and stay solid in a rigid formation, well drilled and disciplined. Hits treatment of Danny Drinkwater shows Dyche rules the roost. I honestly think he would come to EFC.

Howe is almost like an English Martinez can beat Chelsea 5-0 and then get stuffed 4-0 next match. Very gung ho and yet to show he can shore up a leaky defence. Supposedly an Evertonian but in a nice little comfort bubble down south at the moment.

The reality is if we do sack Silva then Brands is unikely to look at either of them anyway so there is zero chance of us getting an English manager.

Expect another unproven foreigner to come in no doubt.

Be honest with yourselves...can you see us winning at Mordor or more importantly... Wembley !?.

I understand that the modern football manager has to deal with egos but some people are going to have to be upset.

We are all frustrated, but like Paul says, we all agreed after Allardyce that the new manager would need time. You can't be calling for his head 5/6 games into his second season after a decent first season. He's got new signings who are still settling in. We shouldn't even be judging him yet. Judge him when his signings are up to speed and we have Gomes and Gbamin in midfield.

History is lettered with manager's who ended up succeeding after difficult patches. Moyes had a bad 2nd season, while Kendall was on the brink of getting sacked when it all came good.

We need to let things settle down and hopefully the results will start to improve, starting tomorrow. It really doesn't help when people are calling for the manager's head every year in September. Progress is never a straight line. There are always setbacks at some point. We need to support the team and the manager.

One thing that we must do is stop beating DCL and Kean, they are in a poisoned chalice position the way Everton play now and it is unfair to blame them if they aren't magically producing goals. Ronaldo would look like Bernie Wright in the current Everton team.

At Half time we had Silva able to settle the lads and instruct the team on what to do then we had 45min to get an equalizer in the 2nd half. Yet we looked completely lost and they got the killer 2nd instead. If all it takes is for newly promoted Sheff Utd going 1-0 in front to completely destroy our confidence then we are royally fucked this season.

As soon as the opposition score we are beat. We have no fight no pride and no clue. Top to bottom it is rotten and we have zero goal threat in the team.

Dark times ahead

I'm not calling for Marco's head, yet, but this guy is the real deal and will be poached, sooner or later, by one of the giants. And, I'm sure Brands will be able to understand him when they speak to each other.

The other problem is that Mourinho has a nasty habit of appearing to stay in position daring the club to sack him, when things are not going well. Since leaving Inter in 2010, he's been sacked and left in less than glorious circumstances.

I would say that he's something of a spent force. The early Mourinho, the Porto manager was adventurous and played on the front foot. Over the years he became the master at stopping the opposition, but this made him more and more defensive. His early personality of a cheeky chappy, brash and confidently calling himself "the special one" has given way to a prickly character who is arrogant and grumpy.

I would say the single greatest managerial achievement of the 21st century is Mourinho winning the Champions League with Porto. That Mourinho would surely catapult Everton up the table in an instant. I fear, and I hope I'm wrong, that Mourinho ain't that Mourinho anymore. This Mourinho ain't worth the money. The great man-manager, the Psychologist, has given way to someone who clearly cannot relate to this younger generation. He cannot inspire them like he did in the '00s.

If you want to break the bank for a great manager, then go for Julian Nagelsmann of Leipzig and formerly of Hoffenheim. He's still only 32, despite having 3 years top level managerial experience. Sure, he's won nothing. But this guy is the next big thing in management. He finished 4th, 3rd and 9th in the Bundesliga with Hoffenheim. That last season affected his reputation which is why he went from the next Arsenal and Bayern manager to taking the Leipzig job. He sits top of the table and has Champions League football. He's just a few months into his new job and so unlikely to go anywhere. I would expect Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd or Tottenham to be breaking down his door (depending on which of them fail to make the Champions League) as well as Bayern, unless Niko Kovac can win the fans over. So unlikely to be persuaded, but if you want to dream Mourinho then why not dream Nagelsmann and get the next big thing in before he fulfils his potential and moves out of reach?

Sure, it's up to Moshiri. But Brands will make it very clear to Moshiri that the football business is for him to Direct, and so to let him get on with it. IF Moshiri was to just go and fire Silva, then I wouldn't be surprised if Brands walks. As I said, I can't see it happening. I am certain that if given time Silva will revert to form and win a lot of games very quickly. Brands will remind Moshiri that he did just this at the end of last season.

What class..?

What premiership class has Silva shown that he can take us forward? Despite the upsurge in performance last season it was also hard to forget the worrying dip that derailed our whole season and had SIlva walking the tightrope.

The fixtures this season thus far have all been winnable and the abject capitulation to Sheff utd at home now has me convinced Silva isn't the man.

Wish I was as optimistic as you but would love to know what you have seen WATCHING EVERTON under Silva that has you so enthused on Marco.

I have been wondering that if Sousa was here to talk things through whether Silva would have had a different team out there on Saturday.

I am sticking with him, but he needs to turn this malaise around quick.

Beating the struggling Sheff Weds and 4 points from Man City / Burnley would be a step forward.

Tony, I always watch Silva closely, as I do most of our managers. I sit in the Park End and it's easy to glance to my left and see the manager on the touchline. JPS was often in Marco's ear. Now he wasn't on the touchline, but he'd get up there and get in Marco's ear. Also, Marco would be seen conversing with him. I'm not seeing that with Boa Morte. No one seems to be getting into Silva's ear and Silva does not seem to be getting a second opinion on his changes in game.

I don't think JPS would have influenced Silva that much, but I think he's clearly lost a sounding board and it is having an effect on the man. Also, interesting to note how well JPS is doing with a team that has never been in the top flight before. Quite remarkable and on a par with Silva's Estoril or Fonseca's Rio Ave, if he can see the season out.

Eddie, I like that you want to be selective. I know we will stick with him, and I firmly believe he will turn things around.

Silva is all style over substance

Just like his football

I'm fed up of the whole boring process, it seems every time I want a new manager in they end up worse than the last one.

As such I won't say whether we need to go down the road of a new man as I clearly don't have a clue anymore (not as little as the poster who suggested Richarlison plays right back but hey ho).

One thing I do know however, is that since Moshiri arrived and started splashing his cash, we have had four crap managers, a DOF who hasn't done his job properly in the Summer despite all his adulation. A back four consisting of a right back who is clearly (sadly) shot, two first choice centre half's with no competition who range from average to shite. Morgan fucking Schneiderlein still stealing a living and being picked in the middle of the team, three strikers who don't score goals and when the going gets tough we bring on Theo Walcott.

One final thing. This 4 2 3 1 formation (I think), does not work, hardly ever worked, wont work. Please for the love of God, try something else.

It was always going to be a wrench having been a team for the last six clubs together. Losing him has knocked Silva back, decsion making, team selections and substitutions are not good enough.

He has been unlucky with injuries to Gomes and Gbamin with Gana going, but to counter that we have had a theoretical easy start to the season.

Furthermore Kean has been brought in as the goal machine. He is not ready.

I have been thinking what Arsne Wenger would do with this player to nuture and introduce him at 19yrs. I don't think he would play him as a lone no9.

I think Moise's confidence and devlopment would be far better suited to playing wide [from the start or as a 60th min sub]. Moise playing with his back to the goal is a mistake and a travesty to us and to the lad. He could do damage and get confidence running at defences given a bit more space from a wider position.

Front three of Richarlison DCL and Kean/Bernard would reap better dividends.

Maybe, Kean might be better wide in a front three. I don't think Bernard suits playing as a forward, he's certainly a midfielder for me. Iwobi also doesn't strike me as a forward. Both suit the 4231 formation.

"Mourinho, he's something of a spent force"

Steve Ferns 53

"Class is permanent and form is temporary."

Donald Trump, stop signing in as Steve Ferns with your contradictory statements!

Mourinho hasn't won the Champions league for 9 seasons despite managing Real Madrid, Man Utd and Chelsea in that time. He's also only managed to win the league once in the last 7 years. I just don't think he's the same manager he was 10 years ago.

Couldn't resist but I agree on Mourinho. I think he worked wonders as a young man but it seems as if his ego became inflated at some point and he's not got the drive to prove himself now. He just wants an easy gig where he has instant success. So I agree with your assessment he would be a poor choice for Everton even if he wasn't being wooed by Madrid.

Hate to repeat it but my view is the overall project is to hit form and our best team when new stadium opens.

Silva here? Doubt it. Brands. Yes.

Does nothing to help with pissed off-ness after Saturday but they know our loyalty.

Also does little for us who are ageing!

To late for the doctor. Treatment for supporting Everton removed from the NHS. No cure and no hope!! It's a chronic condition!!

Moshiri needs stability for the next three years so that he can go ahead with the stadium development. I ask myself the question - if I was him would I be able to rely on the present manager to deliver that stability?

It is a serious matter sacking anyone but football managers are well rewarded for the risk they take unlike many of the fans whose football club plays a huge part in their lives and suffer greatly when their team is letting them down.

Could Arsene Wenger get a tune out of this squad? If the answer is yes then Marco Silva needs to do so very quickly because there is an outfit up the East Lancs who will be asking the same questions right now.

The reason Silva is starting Kean is surely obvious, he is desperate for someone to score fucking goals and he is a top talent we are told!

I hope to bejesus he scores sooner rather than later otherwise we might have another fucking Sandro on our hands.

Filipe @ 63.

In my opinion, I think it is yet to be proven that your assessment that Brands is a great Director of Football is correct – he fucked up mighty big this transfer window did he not?
And if he was as good as you and others say why did he end up at Everton?

Neville Southhall reckons Duncan Ferguson deserves a chance, could it get any worse !

Silva trying to get doubters like me on board with spin "unhappy with Everton players hiding" – he might have just had a word in his ear from somebody!

Drop whoever is not giving his all for the shirt then might be better message – roll up Sheffield Wednesday, right on cue.

He is a clean-living fit man so I wouldn't worry about his age so much. He would serve a purpose for EFC, and we could reciprocate by providing him with the final club challenge he craves.

It is one for the back burner.

I strongly disagree. Porto rode an enormous amount of luck on their way to their 2004 Champions League win. Heading out v Man Utd in the last 16, until a dubious last-minute goal out of nowhere sent them through. Then Lyon, Deportivo and Monaco. The draw opened up for them. It must give Fergie sleepless nights even now – they should have walked it that year, and the cult of Mourinho might never have existed.

As far as I am concerned Ranieri winning the league with Leicester City is the “single greatest managerial achievement of the 21st century”. Mourinho fluked the Champions League and then bought his way to success wherever he's been. I'd love to see him manage a mid-table side somewhere – we'd quickly find out how over-rated he and his methods are.

Where on earth have you got that statistic from? Maybe I've misunderstood something - or you've phrased it in a way that is confusing (to me at least) - but I'd happily wager that winning second balls in the box does not lead to 80+% of goals...

The last game I went to with my dad was against Arsenal - we lost 1-4. I can still see the look of awe on my dad's face when he turned to me as they swept up the field to score their second or third goal. What a football team that was. I consider it a privilege to have been there.

Tony # 78 - he is a perfect fit for what we and Moshiri need - he would turn the football side of the club upside down; but we would have to move very quickly - he has put the message out there that he is ready for management again. Someone will answer him in the very near future.

If we are in or near the relegation places by Xmas time that may be a different matter but Brands will want to stick by his man for as long as possible.

Give Ferguson a chance? “ Could it get any worse?”

He's done fuck all as a strikers coach so I can't see what this “Legend” would do as a manager? Maybe but Schneiderlin?

"Silva could be losing his grip on members of his squad, with question marks emerging over his lengthy training sessions and ­ability to motivate his team."

"The biggest of those problems appears to be the mental fatigue some players are feeling as a result of his long, tactical training sessions and ­preference for his squad to stay in a hotel before all games.
There is also a sense that he is failing to inspire his team and dwells on bad results for too long, rather than quickly lifting his ­players."

"Individuals have become bored during set-piece practice and switched off to the instructions they are being given. Those not ­directly involved have to hang around and can lose concentration."

"Silva likes to keep his players at the training ground for long periods, but groups of them are used to more intense sessions under past managers or at former clubs."

"He also prefers the squad to stay together in a hotel before home and away games, meaning players will often only have a couple of hours to return home after a Friday session before having to meet up again, which can be unpopular."

"Silva's demeanour on the touchline has been commented on by frustrated fans, who would like to see more passion, and questions have been asked over whether he can motivate his players."

"Sources claim the 42-year-old stews on bad results and is not an inspiring character on the training pitch or in the dressing room."

Link

The question is what are players telling brands. This is the point of the DoF. Who's complaining? Disgruntled out of favour players? Or the big stars who we rely on? Has silva got enough players behind him to pick out best side?

If true, this article also shows the root of the problem. I'm with silva, if things aren't going well, work hard to put them right. It's what I've always done and what I was brought up to do. If you struggle with something work hard and put it right. The players are failing and this suggests they don't want to work hard. Those are not players I want to see at my club and brands should move them on.

Cracks always appear with defeat and get worse as the pressure intensifies. Let's see what happens after tonight. We must win. We must play well against city and we must start winning in the league.

Mourinho had a mid-table side before. União de Leiria and he did great there in a very short period of time. He then took a faltering Porto who had not won the league for 4 season to the title in his first full season. He also racked up the pressure on himself by promising it beforehand. That first full season he also won the Europa league beating Martin O'Neill's Celtic. Then the next season he won the league and the champions league.

He never fluked the champions league and I stand by my assertion it's the single greatest managerial feat of the 21st century. Just look at the winners roll of the champions league over the last 20 years. Only Porto have won who are not a giant from the big 5 leagues. Make that big 3 as there hasn't been a French winner in that time. His Porto side were a group of misfits and he turned them into a great side. Remember he had benny McCarthy upfront for God's sake!

Main point was he attacked more back then and seems to have got more and more defensive as time has gone on. He's lost his cheeky persona and become a grumpy old grouch.

Every game we witness a completely unmotivated bunch of players.
We witness a manager who shows nothing when we go behind except strange tactics and substitutions.
We see a bunch of cowards strolling about giving even less when we go behind.
We may well cover as much ground over 90 minutes as other teams do but look at our lack of effort chasing back especially after 3/4 time.

There are other things Matt Law mentions which may or not contribute to what we are seeing every game, who knows.

Unfortunately once the dressing rooms gone then invariably the manager shortly follows. Shouldn't be but does.