Horrible game ends in horror for Gomes

By Michael Kenrick 03/11/2019 552comments  |  Jump to last
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Caught in a retribution trip by Son, Gomes crashed into Aurier coming in from the side, breaking his ankle
Everton 1 - 1 Tottenham Hotspur

Everton took on Spurs at Goodison Park in a lower-table clash, both sides confirming their poor form coming into this one. And it only got worse for Everton, gifting a goal to Spurs, then seeing Gomes go off with a broken ankle.

Team News: Mina came in for Keane; Sidibe, Davies and Walcott started; Calvert-Lewin and Kean were on the bench with Sigurdsson; Richarlison lead the line up-front. Again, no place in the squad for the widely maligned Morgan Schneiderlin.

For Spurs, Harry Kane, who likes scoring against Everton, has not travelled due to illness, but Son starts behind Moura as their leading threat, with Sissoko, who turned down the opportunity of a move to Goodison 3 years ago. Eric Dier is on their bench. Everton haven't beaten Spurs in nearly 7 years.

Everton kicked off after the customary remembrances, putting together a couple of unconvincing attacks. Spurs got possession but Moura was flagged offside. Pickford tries Route Obe to Walcott but the bounce eluded him.

Walcott had a great chance to run at Spurs' left flank and create something... but he didn't produce, as is his wont. Spurs looked confident but were vulnerable to Everton's high press.

It was pleasing to see Tom Davies always looking to break the play forward at pace but the Spurs defence looked well structured to prevent simple balls forward. Richarlison was fouled but Spurs nullified any penetration, the pace of the game suffering as both sides were stifling each other effectively.

Walcott had a brilliant chance for a cut-back off a Sidibe throw-in but drove it back from the byeline straight to a Spurs defender. Everton looked to play out unconvincingly from a goal-kick and were soon under pressure until Gomes stepped in on Ericksen.

Spurs upped the pace a tad, Son's shot getting blocked. Sidibe and Walcott were yielding a lot of space to Ben Davies down the Everton right. A better move from Walcott, Davies Iwobi and Digne broke down with the last pass, as the Blues struggled to get close to the Spurs area.

Spurs won a corner and started to apply some real pressure, Pickford lucky as he flapped at a cross, that it went to an Everton player. Gomes fed Ricjarlison well bu he took his shot when a defender was there to block it.

Richarlison went down, poleaxed by a slight touch to his head, but miraculously recovered when no foul was called. Digne was well-positioned to prevent a good ball reaching Son.

A much better move saw Walcott cross a bit too deep for Gomes, who headed lamely well over the bar. Walcott got called for, and then booked, for slipping his foot off the ball in a tackle, his studs just catching Alderweireld, and the hint of a red-card check from VAR, which would have been ridiculous. Ericksen fouled Richarlison, and he saw a yellow card too.

A great ball in to Richarlison, facing away from goal, he turned but mishit his shot at Gazzaniga. At the other end, a Spurs corner was defended well. Everton put together better movement, Digne winning Everton's first corner that came to nothing.

Mina cleared to Richarlison, who backed in to Sanchez, dropping and demanding the foul: not given... he is such a frustrating player! Both him and Gomes were on the floor in the next Everton attack, Gomes after running into a defender, Richarlison after committing the foul, per Mr Atkinson.

Digne could not get past Aurier but won the corner, delivered well, but cleared easily. From a Digne throw-in, Richarlison did a lot better but scooped his shot well over after making space for his effort. Davies is called, but he'd done nothing wrong in halting Dembele, w

An ultimately disappointing first half, with no memorable chances to speak of, came to an end with Richarlison again claiming but not getting another foul. Poor fayre overall.

A nervous moment after the break, when Mina rolled over and caught Son's foot with his body in the Everton penalty area... VAR deliberation was thankfully supportive of Atkinson's decision after Son had made a meal of it.

A great ball in by Ericksen from a set-piece came so close to Spurs scoring. At the other end, Richarlison turned into a defender and collapsed prostrate on the ground requiring extended treatment for minor facial contact.

Richarlison went down just inside the Spurs area as he tried to work around Sanchez. The ball across the area finally came to Richarlison nicely but his shot was just too close to Gazzaniga.

At least there was more action to interest the eye in this half, and finally the breakthrough, but not what Everton wanted, a dreadful loose pass backwards by Iwobi snapped up and Dele Alli drove the ball easily past Pickford. Just plain shocking.

A reckless challenge by Ndombele sent Sidibe spinning that saw him booked. Everton finally attacked with a little more conviction but no more success than previously as Tosun replaced Walcott.

VAR looked long and hard at a possible handball penalty call on Dele Alli, climbing for a high ball with Mina. Decision: No penalty, of course (This is Everton), despite clear and obvious illegal contact with the ball by the Spurs player. Incredibly, VAR did not have the definitive angle shown on TV! Go figure!!!

A crucial substitution by Silva: Sigurdsson about to come on... But before that, Son committed a horrible foul on Gomes, who broke his right ankle, the stretcher on immediately. Son in anguish, first appeared to be shown a yellow, Atkinson then changed it to a red. TV wouldn't show what happened, but he must've broken something, seemingly in the follow-through after Son had tripped him, his pace catching his right leg in the turf as Aurier came in hard from the side.

After a long long break, with Gomes finally stretchered off, Everton somehow resumed play, and a great cross to the far post was headed over by Calvert-Lewin.

But what a horrible game, a horrible example of VAR, a horrible injury to Gomes... a horrible advert for Premier League football. 12 minutes of added time under the circumstances a complete joke — the match should have been abandoned as an utter disgrace. And on Everton's Day of Remembrance too. What a travesty in every respect.

Everton got a gaol back in added time, a great cross-field ball from Mina crossed back in first time on the volley by Digne — brilliant — and Tosun there to head in strongly as Calvert-Lewin powered in over him.

Sanchez then got caught in possession and kicked out at Richarlison quite obviously as he was clean through on goal. Another VAR check, another utter travesty as No Red Card was the decision of the goons at VAR. It was all Everton in attack against the 10 men of Spurs, the Goodison crowd seething at the incomprehensible injustice of it all.

Finally, at 102+ minutes, Atkinson the incompetent blew the whistle to end this monstrosity of a game.

Scorers: Tosun (90+7'); Alli (63')

Everton: Pickford; Sidibé, Holgate, Mina, Digne; Gomes (84' Sigurdsson), Delph; Walcott (64' Tosun), Davies (83' Calvert-Lewin), Iwobi; Richarlison.
Subs not Used: Lössl, Keane, Coleman, Kean.

Tottenham Hotspur: Gazzaniga; Aurier (88' Foyth), Sánchez, Alderweireld, Davies; Sissoko (73' Lo Celso), Ndombele [Y:65']; Son [R:78'], Alli, Eriksen [Y:31']; Moura.
Subs not Used: Vorm, Dier, Sessegnon, Winks, Parrott.

Referee: Martin Atkinson


Reader Comments (552)

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Brent Stephens
1 Posted 03/11/2019 at 15:33:50
Pickford
Sidibe Mina Holgate Digne
Delph Davies Gomes
Richarlison Iwobi Walcott
Steve Ferns
2 Posted 03/11/2019 at 15:35:46
Finally! A 4-3-3. No Kane. Holgate and Mina. It's like I picked the sides myself! COYB
Christy Ring
3 Posted 03/11/2019 at 15:41:05
I hope it's 4-3-3, you don't know with Silva..

As for Spurs, it was said this morning Kane was out. The difference when he's out, they play a lot faster, remember Moura scoring a hat-trick last season when Kane was out.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

4 Posted 03/11/2019 at 15:53:59
Oof! I'd love to see Everton score a goal today as sweet as Vardy just scored for Leicester to make their game safe.
Sam Hoare
5 Posted 03/11/2019 at 15:55:11
Looks a strong side today though Spurs have a lot of pace up top. I think if we have less possession we will win!

Whichever team gets to counter more will likely create more opportunities.

Huge game for Holgate and an opportunity to really nail down that CB spot if he performs well.

Danny Broderick
6 Posted 03/11/2019 at 16:02:39
No Kane for them.

Not sure if it is 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 with Davies as a number 10.

Either way, he has picked players that have started playing well in the last 2/3 games. Schneiderlin not in the squad. Sigurdsson on the bench again, correctly so. DCL can consider himself unfortunate not to start. Hopefully a strong performance anyway. COYB!

Joe McMahon
7 Posted 03/11/2019 at 16:02:53
Jay @4 sadly we have to accept Leicester are way ahead of Everton in every way. Premier League title, good squad with pace, 21st century stadium facilities and a very good manager.

Everton (2019 model) have none of the above.

Conor McCourt
8 Posted 03/11/2019 at 16:05:24
Looks a little negative to me and will see Iwobi wide which takes away from his game. On form and with respect to balance you could argue he's picked the right team but I hoped he would start DCL at the expense of Delph.
Dave Williams
9 Posted 03/11/2019 at 16:05:30
Looks 4-5-1 to me, flooding the midfield which looks ok to me. The right team but as always it depends on whether he sends them out motivated and determined or will they keel over at the first sign of trouble.
I think this game will tell us whether Silva has got it in him or not, not necessarily the result but how we play over 90 minutes.
Stan Schofield
10 Posted 03/11/2019 at 16:08:41
Joe, with respect, don't be ridiculous. They won a freak title. And I mean freak. Regarding all the rest, you're taking the good run of current form they're in and extrapolating it wildly on a basis of being disappointed with Everton's current form.
Ciarán McGlone
11 Posted 03/11/2019 at 16:18:08
Just when you thought his selections had hit rock bottom.. hes finally reached his 'monkey tennis' and 'youth hostelling with Chris Eubank' moment. Truly desperate stuff.

Hope we have something to smile about later on – but that selection simply invites pressure.

Annika Herbert
12 Posted 03/11/2019 at 16:23:34
Totally disagree Ciaran @11, not saying we will win but I think it's a decent looking team. Each to their own though
Peter Cummings
13 Posted 03/11/2019 at 16:23:49
The good news that Kane is out today, the bad is that a proven Everton nemesis will be in charge of the game in the shape of ref Martin Atkinson who has never done us any favours in the past especially against Londoners, so it will come as no surprise if he carries on in the same manner today.
Mike Dolan
14 Posted 03/11/2019 at 16:32:43
And Stan Schofield nails that one perfectly.

We are probably just a few points behind were we should be if you took Zouma and Gana and Gomes for an extended period and basically replace them with Iwobi (as JPG misses the season). You were all right, Everton are a top six team. Our form has been understandably bad but the fundamentals are still good. The good ship Everton is turning around. We will win today.

Christy Ring
15 Posted 03/11/2019 at 16:55:16
Worried about Sidibe, it's nice to get forward, but not at the expense of his defensive duties.
Ernie Baywood
16 Posted 03/11/2019 at 16:57:09
Silva reminds me of the very worst of Moyes, without the accompanying positives.

Here we are - first time we play a decent team and he shits his pants and plugs in an extra central midfielder.

Spurs are there to be got at. We're happy to just be competitive with them.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

20 Posted 03/11/2019 at 17:29:21
Two teams looking what they are: mid to lower table, negating each other out.

To my eye Spurs just look a tad quicker and incisive, with good movement, than Everton. We've had some good moments, but still look largely static. Walcott showing why he is being picked at the moment, getting in behind Ben Davies a couple of times as well as fulfilling his defensive duties.

The young 'uns Holgate and Davies both playing very well. Tom the pick of our players for me. Gomes a bit hit and miss. Iwobi playing one of his anonymous halves.

Personally, I don't get the point of Richarlison playing central the way Silva's Everton plays. The Brazilian is always going to be short changed trying to battle for high punts forward.

Play it up to him on the ground to feet, with other players in close support, and it would work better. But like this, he is feeding on scraps.

DCL on for Iwobi and a swapping of positions with Richarlison may bring greater dividends.

Christy Ring
21 Posted 03/11/2019 at 17:30:06
Still no drive, just trying to nullify Spurs, should be playing to our strengths, Silva needs to change tactics
Steve Ferns
22 Posted 03/11/2019 at 17:32:50
0-0 at HT against Spurs. I’ll take that. But Walcott and Iwobi are far too deep. They need to push on. Gomes needs a little bit more and we can win this. Got kean to come on get the winner.
Ian Lloyd
23 Posted 03/11/2019 at 17:45:18
We are abysmal — and so are Spurs.
Ernie Baywood
24 Posted 03/11/2019 at 17:45:38
Richarlison is a disgrace isn't he? Can anyone defend him?
Justin Doone
25 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:27:46
Lucky point. Not played badly but Iwobi.. what was he thinking?

Another reason why you play forward, not back. Even if a defender or midfielder would have got to the ball they would have been closed down and under pressure to play the ball quickly.

I would have said to Iwobi not good enough and brought him off for Kean not Tosun for Walcott, but it appears Silva knew all along what he was doing, yeah right.

Calvert-Lewin got another good chance not on target. Not clinical enough. Can we play Sigurdsson as striker? He at least can get a shot on target.

Richarlison had been 'on one' all second half and I just don't know what else to say – other than 'stupid'.

Oh well. We did well to avoid a VAR penalty. We have to move on, not sure if that should be with Silva but he's doing just enough to cling on. Some positives but not good enough. We don't even have the more possession stat to fall back on against 10 men.

Christy Ring
26 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:29:48
Tosun! Yes, that's for Gomes!
Steve Ferns
27 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:32:36
What’s happened to Gomes?
Ian Jones
28 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:35:07
Steve, looked like a broken ankle/leg. Looked to be a nasty injury.
Ernie Baywood
29 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:35:48
They wouldn't show it but assume compound break.
Andrew Hight
30 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:36:21
Just awful. Up there with Mike Walker/Walter Smith era. Unless Silva goes now we will get relegated.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

31 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:36:37
Grateful for the equaliser, but a horrible game in so many aspects.

No appetite to comment further.

Steve Ferns
32 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:38:56
Cheers. Son went looking for him after the incident slightly earlier. That was premeditated and so the worst kind of foul. He should be banned for a long time for that.
Joe McMahon
33 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:39:37
Andrew, it's hard to admit but also Kendall MK lll
Steve Ferns
34 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:40:48
No one left for ages at the end. Not sure why. Think it was to boo the ref.

VAR must be scrapped.

Brian Williams
35 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:42:21
Left immediately after what I saw had happened to Gomes. Football's dead! VAR has killed it.
Jamie Crowley
36 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:42:27
But what a horrible game, a horrible example of VAR, a horrible injury to Gomes... a horrible advert for Premier League football. 12 minutes of added time under the circumstances a complete joke — the match should have been abandoned as an utter disgrace. And on Everton's Day of Remembrance too. What a travesty in every respect.

^^ That. Michael nails it.

Just sick for Gomes. Don't even care about the details of the game, the managerial situation, VAR, none of it.

I think that's the most depressing game I've watched in my 12 years of being born Blue.

Dermot Byrne
37 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:44:05
Bollocks Bollocks Bollocks. Desperately want to leave this shit behind but it is fucking impossible.

Gave up Catholicism but still wonder about purgatory.

Sadly Atkinson probably decides my sentence!

Aaaaagggggghhhhhh!

Charles Brewer
38 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:44:07
I am starting to think this game actually is bent.

With every VAR decision going indefensibly against Everton, from last week's penalty against Keane to this week's not given, to no red card for Sanchez. (Not to consider vast amounts of previous evidence and the way the Sky 6 reliably get the benefit of every doubt,)

I'm starting to think we are dealing with an English version of FIFA and a situation similar to US boxing in the 50s.

John Reynolds
39 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:44:07
I’m not a tin-hat conspiracy theorist but it would appear that not only is VAR a disaster in principle but it is also being used as specifically as a weapon to keep Everton at the foot of the table.

Too angry about that and André to even comment about the game in general. But for anyone calling for Silva’s head, I continue to respectfully disagree.

Andrew Clare
40 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:44:40
This season is turning into a nightmare. Terrible injury to Gomes –awful to see. Dire match. Can't see things getting better unless a change is made very soon.
Gordon Crawford
41 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:45:17
Seems like it's a horrific injury. I hope he recovers fast. Terrible terrible thing to happen. Get well soon, André.

On another note, do our players use bungees for laces? Some of their touches today were more like clearances. Sidibe just doesn't seem like he's up to it, he continually slowed down our attacks on the right.

Richarlison spends more time lying down than running at this moment in time. Iwobi doesn't suit playing on the left and looked short of ideas and gave the ball away cheaply time after time.

We also should have had a penalty, ref had a stinker and VAR needs to be scrapped at this rate. Moise Keen... doesn't seem like his face fits, the boy isn't getting a chance. Tosun needs to start the next game, great finish.

All-in-all a crap day.

Rob Marsh
42 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:45:57
Putting aside the horror show with Gomes, there was far too much fear in that performance and it was only really anger as a result of the Gomes incident that gave us the energy and will to have a good go at them and get the goal.

We should have attacked this nervous Spurs team from the start, we had nothing to lose and waited for Spurs to take the initiative, it was poor again.

Ray Jacques
43 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:47:55
Steve Ferns — stop talking silly.
George Cumiskey
44 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:48:06
Please please please don't let that terrible incident deflect from the fact that we were awful again.

There was nothing different from the garbage we've been playing all season.

Danny Broderick
45 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:48:12
2 things really annoyed me today. The ref, and Richarlison.
Phillip Warrington
46 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:49:25
Speedy recovery, Mr Gomes, but surely this is not the way forward for Everton. The crap they're displaying is sending us to a relegation fight and would not be making any potential transfer targets jumping with joy about joining Everton.

Maybe we have disturbed the football gods by attempting to demolish Goodison for a new ground so the old lady has put a curse on the team.

Or just plain and simple we have a manager whose only experience before Everton is relegation, and then a relegation battle, before being sacked — not the credentials of a manager who you want to take you into a top 6 place.

Rob Marsh
47 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:51:02
Danny #45,

I can only think nobody at the club has ever had a word with Richarlison, he's now a marked man who the refs see as a cheat.

Justin Doone
48 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:52:11
To be positive, I said last week that Tom Davies was what we missed in our midfield. His ability to pass the ball forward quickly. He was once again great.

I never want to see Schneiderlin again. Despite Gomes's injury (I'll only comment on wishing him a full and quick recovery), Davies is good enough. Holgate too. They have to keep it up and hopefully keep improving.

Charles Brewer
49 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:54:14
The shithouse Guardian (demented conspiracy theories a specialty) report seems to think that Son shouldn't have been sent off because Gomes landed awkwardly after a filthy tackle. By this reasoning, if I drive my car at someone and hit them, and they land on their head and die, I will not be guilty of anything because I didn't specifically intend them to land on their head?

They probably get their Mad Cat woman to write a report about how the Russians had bribed Nigel Farage to injure Gomes.

Rob Marsh
50 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:58:50
Just seen the Son challenge on Gomes, I don't think Son is entirely to blame for the broken leg. Gomes takes a few steps further on and digs his foot in the turf, this then twists his knee.

Son's contact does not break his leg directly.

Christy Ring
51 Posted 03/11/2019 at 18:59:56
Hope it's not as bad as it looked, a horrible injury, wishing Gomes all the best and a full recovery. He's a huge loss probably the best ball player we have.

As for the game, we were poor, lacking confidence, Silva's tactics, it looked like 4-3-3, but no, he played an extra midfielder to stifle Spurs... totally wrong – especially as we were at home. He hasn't a clue, his changes every week are round pegs in square holes.

Derek Knox
52 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:01:20
Get Silva down to the Pier Head pronto and launch the phoney into the Mersey on an outgoing tide!
Paul Tran
53 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:06:05
Son was distraught because he knew it was a shithouse's challenge.

If things 'even themselves out', we're due a bonanza at some point.

A very poor, tentative performance where we rescued a point. If Silva's got it in him to turn this around, he's hiding it very well.

Ian Jones
54 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:06:28
Rob, agreed. Gomes is probably off balance as a result of Son's initial challenge Unfortunate set of circumstances... to put it mildly!

Whilst a red card may be harsh for Son, I expect his attention was to bring Gomes down so I suppose a red is fair.

Gordon Crawford
55 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:07:16
I think Son had a go at him for the accidental elbow in the face. But who hasn't done that playing football? I know I have. But I don't believe Son tried to hurt him. It's just one of those horrific moments in football.
Daniel A Johnson
56 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:12:17
Sick if all this he’s not a bad lad bollocks that people spout after A player causes a horror injury. Any player good or bad is capable of making a bad rash tackle just like Son did today. Cause and affect, actions in all walks of life have consequences.

I hope Son has a few sleepless nights next week

Kenny Smith
57 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:12:21
If you get a penalty for accidentally standing on someone’s toe then waving your arm above yer head and the ball hit it has got to be. But saying that Mina on Son could of been given.
Absolutely horrendous game in an attacking sense. Richarlson would be one hell of a player if he intended on playing rather than trying to win cheap free kicks at every opportunity.
Tom, Mina and Holgate were excellent though. For me sigurdsson has to replace Gomes cos I never was to see Schindlerlain again.
Never a red card for Son and it will probably be rescinded and rightly so.
On another note. not good enough, Silva has to go.
Paul Jeronovich
58 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:12:41
Judy got out the game and both spurs players went in intentionally, the ban should be fucking extended.
David Hallwood
59 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:12:58
Horrible for Gomes. I wish him a speedy recovery.

Onto VAR-get rid ASAP, what should be a tool to clear up controversies, is creating more. Why wasn't Sanchez sent off, why wasn't a penalty awarded agaist Alli? not looking at the ball? neither was Keane. I was all for bringing technology into the game but this is a complete farce.

The only bright note was the performance of Tom Davies and that we never looked like conceding untill Iwobi's howler.

Rob Marsh
60 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:13:03
Ian # 54

I think the ref actually gave the red in sympathy with us when he seen Gomez's injury, but he originally intended yellow.

Had Gomez of ran on without further incident or maybe just tripped over it would have been a yellow at most.

I don't think there was any malice in Song's challenge whatsoever, it's just tragic and very unfortunate what happened.

Mike Corcoran
61 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:16:27
Watched that horrible injury in A&E whilst my own lad 14 was getting his leg plastered after breaking it during a match earlier. FFS
Tony Hill
62 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:16:52
It was indeed horrible. Thoughts are obviously with Gomes. I agree with Gordon Crawford's (@55) view of the event.

Davies is a ray of light - his pass for Walcott (was it?) showed what a fine talent is emerging.

Well done Cenk Tosun, it was a very well worked goal actually and, at the moment, I will take the point.

Dark all round, though.

Ron Sear
63 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:17:37
Methinks Charles Brewer has been reading too many extreme right wing tabloids to come out with load of tosh about the Guardian, I wonder if he has actually ever read a newspaper that is not owned by a rich plutocrat with an agenda? All that happened is a reporter came up with a reasonable view on how the injury occurred, one which is backed up by many other spectators and which slow motion on MOTD will sort out.
Amit Vithlani
64 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:18:22
Its a horror injury. My prayers for a speedy recovery. He will hopefully get top medical care and be back, but it was a bad one.

On days like this, everything feels secondary.

Jason Wilkinson
65 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:20:38
Rob #60,

I thought the ref gave Son a second yellow.

Anyone else see a yellow then red come out? if not, then I must be seeing things.

Tony Hill
66 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:21:52
On VAR, we were fortunate to avoid a penalty against us with the Mina tackle which was very close to where I sit. I couldn't see the Alli one though I'm told it was a certain pen.
Keith Gleave
67 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:22:09
The Son tackle was very poor but it Aurier was in there also. I really hope Gomes comes back from this.

Richarlison does go down too easily, it's true and it goes against him. He should have had a penalty though, he was taken down. Sánchez should also have walked for tripping Richarlison when he was caught out, last man.

VAR, l have always supported but it's not being used correctly. Today again we were denied a penalty for Alli's handball and what's worse, Mina was looked at for something and nothing in their box after an issue against us.

Finally, Silva has to go; should have been in the international break, probably after Southampton.

Daniel A Johnson
68 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:22:41
A question has to be asked: Why does the VAR official not have all camera angles?

Also, I bet my house if that Dele Alli handball incident went to VAR in Spurs vs Liverpool or City, it would have been given 100%.

Football can fuck off at the moment, it's a soul-destroying pit of misery at the moment and I just want to get away from it.

John Audsley
69 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:24:25
Horrible game, horrific injury to poor Gomes and I'm surprised the officials didnt review the Tosun goal and find some way of disallowing it as Everton had scored.

Silva doesn't have a clue and the players seem to have no heart or belief.

We are in a sad position and I'm glad that the teams below us are shite.

However if we lose at Southampton we are I'm the bottom 3 and I wouldn't be surprised if that happens

Fucks sake this is a terrible situation for such a proud club

Gordon Crawford
70 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:25:10
The other thing for me is that we have some truly mad games coming up and we are not progressing, and the bottom is looking scarily close.
It’s a very concerning time.
Rob Marsh
72 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:27:10
Jason #65,

I might have missed something, but I saw the ref run up to the incident, look towards Gomes and then go towards Son with a yellow. An angry crowd scene then broke out (players and coaches), he then pulled the red out for Son.

Maybe I missed the other yellow?

John Graham
73 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:27:14
We had enough chances to have won the game. VAR is killing it with infuriating decisions, I think many would agree we were better off with just the referees.

Confidence very low with every player we need, the likes of Digne, Delph, Sigurdsson and Mina, to step up and get the fight back into the team.

Looks bad for Gomes; let's hope he's not out for a long time.

Think the next couple of weeks are going to define our season and whether Silva still has a job.
COYB

Derek Knox
74 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:28:01
Jason @ 65, he (ref) had the Yellow Card in his hand but didn't show it, but once he realised the severity of the injury to Gomes, he then reached for the Red.

In all fairness to Son although he directly caused the initial foul, Gomes going down awkwardly caused the injury; I doubt very much whether Son would have intentionally caused that to happen.

Michael Kenrick
75 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:28:36
Jason (#65),

Atkinson pulled his yellow card out first... but I don't think he actually showed it to Son. Later, as he saw the severity of the injury to Gomes, he showed red to Son.

Perhaps not strictly correct per referees' SOP, but justified, I think, in the circumstances.

Stephen Brown
76 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:28:51
All the best to Andre Gomes!

VAR is a complete shambles! The handball gets awarded if Sky 6 benefit from it! It's all so corrupt!

On another note, 12 minutes added on was a joke! Handball incident over 3 minutes, Gomes injury 8 minutes, 2 other VAR checks, 5 subs, 1 goal, 2/3 other injuries. 15 minutes plus in my book!

Derek Knox
77 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:33:04
Good points raised with Dermot Gallagher by Alan Shearer and Don Hutchison on the post-match synopsis. Not just our game today but in general, players are going down as if shot by a sniper, in the hope of getting a decision or penalty, when the initial contact is either minimal or non-existent.

Yet none are being penalised for simulation!

Kunal Desai
78 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:33:24
First and foremost, get well soon, Andre Gomes.

As for the football, this was once again dire. Southampton is make-or-break for Silva.

Rob Marsh
79 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:35:41
I wouldn't be too surprised if Song's red card was reversed upon appeal (just a thought?).
Stephen Brown
80 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:38:04
This is a statement I'd never thought I'd mutter! I'm so worried about this season now I'd take Moyes back until the end of the season?!

Don't shoot me down too much! That's how terrible we are!

Another question is who valued Iwobi?? A master negotiator, I'd say!! I like his work ethic but £30M?! I must be worth £12M then and I'm 41 and on the way to being obese!

Rob Marsh
81 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:38:07
Derek # 77

VAR would be the perfect tool to dish out justice to these divers including our own.

Pat Kelly
82 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:41:23
I've written off Silva. Moshiri must now take responsibility or take us down and it's goodbye to BMD. Surely he has too much to lose not to act NOW.
Stephen Brown
83 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:43:35
If VAR starts dishing out bans for diving we’d see Richarlson about once a month ! So frustrating today ! He needs to stay on his feet and stop rolling around !! He was fouled a couple of times and ref just ignored him!
Derek Knox
84 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:45:00
Rob @ 81, agree there, but it isn't being used for that, and even the 'decisions' that are being applied after consultation with the ' VAR Panel' are still proved to be dubious at best, or downright wrong!
Roger Helm
85 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:45:44
Poor Gomez - looks like a fracture he will be out with for a long time. We have had terrible luck with these injuries but at least Coleman and McCarthy recovered and came back.

The game was dire but at least Holgate and Davies gave us some hope for the future with their displays. Grasping at straws really. We need reinforcements in January, whatever they cost, because if we do go down, and it is not impossible, we don’t have the players to bounce back up.

Jim Bennings
86 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:47:53
I can’t believe what I’ve just watched out there today.

VAR has ruined the game completely and it’s purely a sick joke having to wait that long for a decision on a clear handball.

The arse has fallen out of our season, Gomes and Bernard gone until god knows when and let’s be honest what we witnessed was another clueless pile of shit for 90 minutes where the Tosun goal came unexpectedly.

Silva can’t set the team up to score goals,we didn’t possess a player capable today of putting a single forward pass together.

Richarlison stinks the place out too often these days and Digne is nowhere near the level he was at last season, his crossing has caught Colemanitis.

We are basically a poor team that’s going to spend the whole season scrapping for points to stave off relegation let’s be honest, 18 months on there is no evidence of progress under Marco Silva, and a glance at the fixture list tells me it’s highly unlikely anytime soon.

Christy Ring
87 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:54:00
How are all the crucial decisions by VAR, totally anti Everton, and why is Silva so dignified, when questioned, he should be absolutely livid, do you think Klopp would hold back, no he'd absolutely slate the ref and VAR decision, where's the passion?
He has to go, we're in deep relegation trouble, and the most frightening aspect, Spurs and City are the only top teams we've played, wait until December.
Derek Knox
88 Posted 03/11/2019 at 19:57:37
Jim B, @ 86, Richarlison is not doing himself or the team any favours by going down too easily, it is like 'the boy who cried wolf' when there is a genuine claim, it is almost dismissed automatically because of the previous histrionics.

I think basically he is a very good player with even more potential to improve, and that applies to most of the players we have, I feel genuinely they are being very badly managed.

Danny Baily
89 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:00:36
Next two games are crucial. Our place in this league was never going to come down to big results in these matches.
Jason Wilkinson
90 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:01:02
From the starting 11 who should keep their place next week?
For me;
Pickford- didn't have much to do, cant blame him for the goal.
Sidibe- did ok but was caught out of position a few times.
Digne- very poor today overall, did put the cross in to Tosun.
Mina- indecisive for the goal, poor in their box.
Holgate- good 1st half, wtf were you doing when Alli scored?
Delph- good at getting us going forwards, quiet mostly.
Davies- good energy and some defence splitting passes.
Gomes- get better soon lad our thoughts and prayers are with you. Played well and looked a threat.
Walcott- ok 1st half, faded badly and needed subbing.
Iwobi- ineffective, needs to play higher up and central.
Richarlison- get some longer studs lad, looked for fouls.

Starting 11 for me v Saints; Pickford, Coleman, Keane, Holgate, Digne. Davies, Delph, Iwobi. Tosun, DCL, Kean.
4-2-1-3 play Iwobi at No.10 Let Kean drift and Digne and Coleman to provide the width. Two target men up front and try to score as many as poss.
We can not go there trying the same turgid, slow build up that has failed us all season.

Christine Foster
91 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:03:58
I love Everton, I hate watching them. My heart goes out to Andre, victim of a poor tackle and unintended consequences, I wish him the speediest of recoveries and I am sure we will see him back to his best next year.
But I have given up on Silva, I have given up on the players who take the easy options and take no responsibility. I have to ask why so many good players are playing without conviction or confidence, I have to ask why so many players are making schoolboy errors, I have to ask why they are getting away with it.
Sadly it comes from the manager. It has too and its not good enough. On the plus side he is a positive manager, an attacking attitude but defensively it looks as if the back four have never played together, the midfield go missing and the attack.. oh hang on we haven't got one of those..
The seeds for the season were sown in the transfer window.. but the team management, irrespective of the quality of players we have is flawed, terminally so.
You build a team around a spine and therein lies the problem.. we have a goalkeeper... no centre back pairing ( Holgate is never going to be good enough) no centre midfield balance and no striker who can dominate and turn a game. No spine.. no surprise we are disjointed and weak. A managers job is to make the most of what he has, to fashion a team in his style. Silva has not got the best from his players and god knows what his style is. He has not stamped his mark on the club and I fear his time is running out.

Today is about Andre Gomes, today is about sending him our very best wishes for his recovery. Monday is another day. One when reflection must decide how long the current situation is allowed to continue.

Paul Hewitt
92 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:04:11
I'm with Stephen, get Moyes back till the end of the season. He will bring organisation and a will to win to the team. No top manager will leave their job to come here at the moment. Let's get to the summer, still in the Premier League. Then let's go and get a top manager, who hasn't been relegated.
Charles Brewer
93 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:05:38
Actually, I wouldn't mind Richarlison being done for diving using VAR, it might force him to think about taking that out of his game... So long as large numbers of other fakers were subjected to the same scrutiny.

Instead, I'm confident that if he was cited retrospectively, no-one else ever would be (as we all remember from the the one-off Niasse incident) and we'd still have the likes of Son flinging themselves about after someone breathed nearby.

On the Son incident, there is in common law a principle known as "the thin skull rule". If I hit someone and they die or are severely injured because they have a thin skull, and I didn't know, my responsibility for their severity of their injury is not diminished.

Son, having fouled Gomes is completely responsible for any injury, no matter whether he intended a severe injury or just a mild tap. He assaulted Gomes and should be punished in proportion to Gomez injury.

Julian Exshaw
94 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:06:53
That whole match has left me cold, dispirited. It will be remembered for all the wrong reasons.Yet it's not a time to talk about Silva or VAR but rather the direction our great game heading.
I grew up watching Match of the Day in the 70s, a time of great characters and not a little humour. The game is so far removed from that now. It has lost it's soul, its tradition. Greed has taken over. TV companies, betting companies, incompetent officials and bent administrators are slowly destroying the game we love.
My prayers tonight though are for Andre Gomes. Those who follow him on social media will know he is a genuinely good lad who has taken Everton to his heart. His face grimacing in agony is devastating to see.
Que Deus te abençoe e te ajude a recuperar, Andre.
Liam Reilly
95 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:09:16
The VAR for the handball was a disgraceful decision. If that was at Anfield, OT, Stamford Bridge etc., its a penalty all day long.

But to take the blue tinted glasses off; it's a contact sport and Son has gone in for a bit of payback, but it was never a 'shithouse' challenge. Gomes has landed awkwardly and in 99% of cases, it's just a yellow and move on.

Dissapointed but cant see Silva seeing out December with the football on show and the fixture list. TC saying on sky sports that he wants to be a manager;its working for Gerrard and Lampard.

Rob Marsh
96 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:09:40
Paul Hewitt # 92

What's wrong with Big Sam again? That's if we're going down that path again.

Jim Bennings
97 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:12:01
Pointless to talk about VAR.

It’s clear now the agenda is for the top six only (Leicester not included)

Martin Atkinson should never be allowed to referee another Everton game until he retires (should never have been allowed back after the Rodwell Derby)

The game is gone, the sport isn’t dead and watching Everton under Silva now is painful as it was under Big Sam at times.

Brian Hennessy
98 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:12:15
I don't normally feel the need to comment negatively on what people say on the live forum where things are often said in the heat of the moment.

However a few posts today by one particular individual were just disgusting and I don't they should be tolerated.

To say that Marco Silva is to blame for the injury today to Andre Gomes is disgraceful. It gives me no pleasure to highlight the comments below but I feel the individual concerned should take a look at themselves and if necessary the site admins should take action.

Live forum
Tony Marsh
03/11/2019 : 18:14:50 This is all on Silva. Wearechasing the game playing desperation football. Injuries occur. Silva out
Tony Marsh
03/11/2019 : 19:04:29

Silva caused the Gomez I Jury because we have to play desperation football chasing around, diving in and this shit show creates scenarios we're injuries occur

Tony Marsh
03/11/2019 : 18:19:45

Silva is one of those people in football that attracts bad energy bad luck bad results bad things just happen. Silva is a cancer along with Bill Kenwright. Pair of c**ts destroying the club.

Mark Guglielmo
99 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:13:00
Nope, still gutted. Kudos to TW for being the single most rational comments section I've seen post-game (I implore everyone to avoid Twitter at all costs). I must be a masochist for not going to do something else non-footy related.
Jason Wilkinson
100 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:14:13
After todays turgid display our official response will be?
Stand by for a stadium announcement. Standby for operation BMD.
David Pearl
101 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:15:29
Pre game it looked like a 433 and we were going to go for it. From what we saw however, a 4141 with us sitting back like pussys, it was poor from Silva.

I feel a bit for Silva, he's under pressure and it shows. I've wanted him gone. Another loss next weekend and it surely must be the end. He doesn't look far away from making us click... the shape looked better recently and if we reproduced what we did against West Ham we win this game. So... instead of going for it he takes lwobi out of the middle and puts him wide. He takes Walcott from his freer role and brings him back wide and deep also. He didn't have the confidence to allow walcott and Iwobi to join Richarlison and our attack was toothless.

Plus points, Davies looked good, accomplished. Holgae also played well, if you forget him being off balanced in allowing Alli to skip past him. Glad Tosun scored.

Bad points, Silva, Richarlison diving (embarrassing), Gomes. Just unlucky. Bad challenge from behind from Son but he then got his studs caught in the ground and then to make matters worse after badly breaking his lower leg he gets clattered by the Spurs right back. We will be lucky to see him back for pre season.

It actually started promisingly but soon enough, obviously under instruction we sat too deep, didnt press, had no momentum.

Where was that fighting spirit and vigour that we saw for the final ten minutes.

What l want won't happen. But l would like a diamond midfield. Schneiderlin at the base with Davies and Sigurdsson, lwobi behind Walcott and Tosun. Play two up top. During the actual game today the easiest thing for Silva to do was to either just change the shape or simply swap Richarlison and Walcott around. Whatever... this season is shit.

Rob Marsh
102 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:16:15
Liam # 95

There's only one team Gerrard has to beat up there, the rest of them?

Lampard has walked into a very talented squad, let's wait and see for a season or two how things go.

There's no reason why Tim wouldn't be a good manager, I'd just like to see him serve some kind of apprenticeship first.

Trevor Peers
103 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:19:44
So sad for Gomes, I sincerely hope he has a good recovery.
I think the time for arguing the toss over Silva is over. I counted 1 shot in the first half against a Spurs team so clearly lacking in confidence, if that's attractive attacking football I'll eat my fcking hat. Everyone who cares for the club should be shouting loud a clear for Silva's dismissal.

He needs removing and replacing with an organiser, who can win enough points till the summer, surely that's not too much to ask.
If the powers that be can't see that Silva is an absolutely clueless manager, I'm convinced there's a good chance he will take us down. Knowing Moshiri and his affection for Silva, it won't happen this week or next week but in December.

John Boon
104 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:20:09
It has taken supporters some time to fully understand VAR. I now fully comprehend. At the start of the season each CITY starts off with 100%. VAR luck factor.. In the case of the city of Liverpool it must have been decided that in order for it to work fairly the RS have been awarded 99% while Everton have been allocated 1%.. The Gods were never consulted about this factor having a slight bias.

Stick VAR somewhere dark. It causes more confusion than ever.I also agree that there are far too many Refs who are actually senile and way way past ever being capable of refereeing any game.

Paul Birmingham
105 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:20:17
Another dire game, and sadly as expected the early Chrimbo present, to Spurs.

Gutted for Andres Gomes and another massive burden in view of the next 2 months of fixtures.

If the manager doesn’t get a grip with with Richarlisons version of the dying swan, then we’ll end up like we did with Andy Johnson. It’s killing any rhythm we create in the games.

A point salvaged today, but this season is going to be very painful, to endure if the players don’t get some belief.

Enough said about Atkinson, never fails to screw it up for EFC, and VAR, and for me the game is becoming farcical.

At this rate I sense many will seriously consider if VAR, even in this first full season, is worth it.

Best wishes and a speedy recovery to Andres Gomes.

Paul Hewitt
106 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:21:12
Can anyone name me One top manager that will join us now.?
Mark Guglielmo
107 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:21:35
John @104, right? Atkinson let every single major decision be made for him by someone else. Why even have refs?

Paul @106 I've asked this many a time but got mostly nada. I don't think it matters to supporters anymore, though. It's not a "get a top guy," it's a "get any guy who isn't Silva."

Tony Abrahams
108 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:22:11
Only read a few posts, but thought that was the best defensive shape I have seen us play with all season, and couldn’t see Spurs scoring until Iwobi gave away possession so stupidly.

Didn’t have enough going forward, Richarlison going down too easily but never getting enough support, and it was obvious that Iwobi never had the same confidence to commit players from out wide.

Three subs and yet Iwobi staying on the pitch is not something I agreed with, but sickening for Gomes, and once again having to endure Martin Antagonising Atkinson, makes me even sicker.

I worry about VAR, in its present format, and don’t think it will improve until we can all hear what the man in the control room is saying (A-la Rugby) and this is what we should be demanding right now as spectators, because the human error/deception is completely beyond a joke as it stands right now.

Mark Guglielmo
109 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:24:32
Tony @108, as one of the guys who really likes Iwobi, that was an awful, awful decision. The horrible pass put him in a bad spot, but where was Holgate to help out?
Derek Knox
110 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:25:04
Christine @ 91, very good post which possibly encapsulates the way most of us feel at present, both towards the players being mismanaged and the sorry state our beloved club is in at present.

I assume that you, like most of us, have supported Everton for many years, when you think back to the many times when we craved some investment so we could possibly get to the levels we believe we deserved.

Since Moshiri has arrived on board, (it could well have been Viv Nicholson) because we have proliferated so much of those long craved funds and seemingly got worse.

I say we, but we, the fans seem to have a better idea of finances and how to utilise them, but have had no influence whatsoever than the so-called experts, but it is sad to see all the same.

Peter Mills
111 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:26:40
That match was an abomination, a dreadful encapsulation of every awful virus that has infected the beautiful game.

Horrible indeed.

Eric Paul
112 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:28:03
Jason@90
I don’t think Holgate expected Ewobi to put a defence splitting pass in.along with Davies he was one of our better players
David Pearl
113 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:31:17
Me too Eric, but Holgate should of done better in that moment.

Thinks aren't working out for Moshiri are they!

Derek Knox
114 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:31:55
Tony and Mark, I like Iwobi, but would have no hesitation in fining him or any other player for that matter, making needless and dangerous back passes.
Pat Kelly
115 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:32:43
It would be better for Silva to go now because it's going to get uglier. With our growing injury list and ever declining performance it's only a matter of time before we start getting seriously and embarrassingly hammered. Hasn't confidence been damaged enough ? The longer this goes on the deeper the hole to be climbed out of.
Dave Abrahams
116 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:33:42
Terrible injury to Gomes, hope he makes a good recovery, the extent of that injury seemed to sicken all the players who witnessed how his leg was looking after the incident which left him down.

The game was another very poor example of how football is meant to be played, two poor teams looking terrified of losing, not doing enough to try and win the game, with Spurs slightly better and more organised in their play, but still not really doing anything to upset Pickford.

Richarlison, if I had a ten year old son who did what he constantly did today and since he came here, I’d make him go to school dressed as a girl, doesn’t anyone at the club show him viveo’s of the game and show him how fuckin’ pathetic he looks with his play acting.

Glad to get the draw in the end but with the injuries piling up, mostly midfielders, the next two months don’t look very healthy for our points tally to grow, no matter who manages the club.

Wishing Gomes a quick recovery, but that doesn’t look likely either, sorry to say.

Mark Guglielmo
117 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:34:01
Derek @114 absolutely. In baseball (yeah yeah, lol at me), teams have something called then "Kangaroo Court" where they fine players internally for doing stupid things like this.

Dave @116 "Richarlison, if I had a ten year old son who did what he constantly did today and since he came here, I’d make him go to school dressed as a girl, doesn’t anyone at the club show him viveo’s of the game and show him how fuckin’ pathetic he looks with his play acting."

Thank you for finding the one note here that made me laugh.

Peter Griffiths
118 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:35:18
I believe it was Aurier’s challenge and not Son that committed the horror foul.

As Sky didn’t show any replays this hasn’t been picked up as yet, but definitely Aurier goes right in with his studs on Gomez right leg.

Mark Guglielmo
119 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:37:06
Peter @118,

I really don't even want to see or think about this ever again, but the only thing that actually caused the injury was Gomes's cleats getting caught in the turf.

Both Son & Aurier indirectly caused the entire situation to even occur, but there wasn't all that much contact by either party. I did only see it once, as it occurred.

Ken Kneale
120 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:37:32
Dire in all respects. Terrible injury - terrible VAR and abominable manager in the home dugout. Surely there is no person other than possibly Silva himself who thinks he is up to the job.

We are going backwards not forwards. A unmotivated squad, terrible tactics and no idea on how to change things – he has to go and go now. He will relegate Everton.
,

Jason Wilkinson
121 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:37:51
Eric #112,

Holgate is a defender. He got it horribly wrong. I'm not suggesting Iwobi was blameless, neither was Mina.

Holgate was again one our better performers but I saw a mistake and called it as such.

Rob Marsh
122 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:38:11
Paul # 106

Might sound a bit cynical, but if we start talking telephone numbers they'll come!

It's the expectation brought about by what was paid for the squad that's killing us, we're crap but refuse to admit it.

Sadly this has yet to bottom out, things could get worse over December, when we admit to our true level we can then go and get a manager who can take us forward (but it won't be your Morinho types).

Simon Dalzell
123 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:38:13
I've totally had it with Silva. He is clueless. No way should Richarlison be playing centre forward. Calvert llewin has looked better recently, so I would start with him or Kean, even Tosun.

How could the 'manager' wait so long watching Richarlison falling over time and time again, without changing things? Spurs were for the taking. Silva is the worst ever.

I keep thinking back to his first game in charge, when we were far the better team at Wolves, even with ten men after Jags was sent off. We inevitably started tiring. Wolves made 3 subs, and typically Silva made none. this was the crucial factor.

A similar scenario against Bournemouth shortly after, and a boatload of incompetence since. Rubbish team selections, terrible substitutions (or lack of), non-existent tactics etc etc etc.

SACK HIM NOW!!!

David Pearl
124 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:38:49
Peter, if it was Auriers challenge he would of been sent off wouldn't he? Unless they didnt have access to the incident but l doubt that.
Ian Riley
125 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:38:53
The game today sums up where we are heading. I watched the match thinking please don't concede first. The chances we made were half chances not clear cut. Scoring from set plays is as likely as Jose coming.

The Gomez injury cannot hide that we are in a relagation fight. Is Silva the man? No? Why? Are our players improving? Do we look like improving? No!!

This has to be the most talented squad since supporting Everton. Seventeenth in the league and I fear relagation is a real possibility. The board have a call to make over the international break. Call David Moyes and Tim cahill as number two. This is not a time for not good enough for Everton. The league table doesn't lie.

Get well soon Mr Gomez. We will be waiting for your speedy recovery.

Jer Kiernan
126 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:45:17
Feel very dispondant today, ,wish the best for Andre genuinely feel he is one of few real players "on the ball" we have had in midfield for some time, ,i hope he can recover

In a weird way I feel the incident has saved Silvas job up til that incident he was looking gone though I think he will be gone by Xmas

The Club need to be ringing Eddie Howe right now

Steve Ferns
127 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:45:46
Some wise words from Neville Southall, just now:

Sometimes as a team you get a bad injury,poor decisions and seems everything is against you
Only thing you can do is get your head down and force a result
Today they did
Not pretty but graft and determination got us through
Stick together always
UTFT

Allan Board
128 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:46:10
Haven't seen any of the game, that's 3 starters in midfield gone now. If you take the emotion out of it, if this were any other club having such a torrid time with results, I'll discipline, injuries, bad luck, poor management, awful officiating and inept leadership then we would all say that club is nailed on relegated.
Somebody needs to show bravery and leadership NOW. If they don't, this will get worse and this once great club will be in the lower leagues sooner than you think.
Much better sides than this have been relegated.
Man Utd, Leeds, Tottenham, Notts Forest, Newcastle, to name a few.
If we have only 11pts from 11 game's, (11 out of 33) why should we suddenly start winning as if by some god given right?
Given the fixtures now become difficult, I really can't see more than 6 points from the next 30 available.
Spurs are nothing without Kane, and should have been tonked today, their bubble has well and truly burst, and won't finish anywhere near top 6, so another 2 points dropped.
30-38pts is my points prediction if you keep this loser in charge.

Wake the hell up Everton and change it now.

Mark Guglielmo
129 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:47:11
Yeah Jer @126, I think I've pretty come around to thinking that either Howe or Benitez is our best hope forward at this moment in time. Howe being the more 'attainable' of the 2, unless Bournemouth won't let him go?
Tony Abrahams
130 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:48:09
I’m not sure Mark@109 I was engrossed in the game (honestly) and I was concentrating on Iwobi, because the ball was like a very hot potato for him at times today.

He came inside, never looking comfortable on the ball, looking like he couldn’t wait to get rid of it imo, and played another negative pass, and this was why I thought he never looked comfortable out wide because he kept looking for the easiest option, which is not the case when he plays inside.

Spurs sprung fast, I’ve read Holgate was poor, but I was delighted with his response to the Gomes injury, because it looked like he was telling his team-mates that we better not lose now after what has just happened to one of our team, and I wish we had a few more players with this attitude if I’m being honest.

Julian@94 describes my feelings better than I could describe them myself, because I’m sick for Gomes and also sickened for the game that I love because it’s changing for the worse in front of my eyes, and I don’t know if it’s because of ineptitude or something much more cynical, which is also making me sick.

Christine Foster
131 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:49:07
One has to wonder at the relationship of Brands and Silva as to who we buy and who has the say of how we play. In days of old it was the manager, pure and simple.. he bought and sold as finances allowed in fashioned a team based on his expectations and evaluations of players.

These days its a lot murkier as to how much influence and say the manager has. If he has given a list to Brands to go out and find then fair enough but (how did we end up with 3 No 10s??) but if the players are not found who is to blame? (The Spurs manager said as much a while back...)

On the day all you can expect is the team to play as the manager expects with commitment and to the best of their ability. That is the bare minimum of requirements. Clearly that isn't happening, players not good enough or manager not good enough? In truth probably a bit of both but what is not good enough is that its allowed to continue. If they (the board) are to back Silva then they HAVE to fill the obvious gaps in the team, up top, in the middle and at the back. If they have given Silva what he asked for then they have a right to question what's happening.

One last point... I didn't count how many crosses we had today, but they were few and far between. If the ball isn't in the box you ain't going score. Deliveries were poor and too often too late. The goal we scored was from a first time cross.. probably the first, first time cross we had.. in the 98th minute.

Hit the byline, cross the ball, beat the first man, you have done your job... football is simple.

Mike Gaynes
132 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:49:16
Peter #118, that is absolutely not true. Do not spread BS.

When Gomes was fouled from behind by Son, he went into Aurier's planted leg. The two legs impacted and it was Gomes' that gave way. Aurier went down instantly as well. He did NOT stomp on Gomes with his studs or anything else.

Eric Paul
133 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:50:31
Jason @121
Fair comment
Peter Griffiths
134 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:52:12
David @124,

Like the handball incident!

I've seen the replay several times over, it was Aurier's challenge and then an immediate grimace of pain from Gomes. A stud showing challenge.

I'm not going to post the link...

Eric Yarker
135 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:53:20
Bayern just dumped Niko Kovac so he's now available!
John Davies
136 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:54:15
What a horrible day.

Horrible injury to André Gomes. So sorry for him. Wishing him a full, speedy & successful recovery.

Horrible performance again by Everton (& Spurs for that matter).

Horrible, embarrassing Richarlison behaving worse than my 1-year-old baby granddaughter.

Horrible refereeing by Martin Atkinson & Anthony Taylor (but we all knew that was coming).

Horrible VAR spoiling the national game.

Horrible, acidic, vindictive comments by some horrible people on the Live Forum. (Brian #98, I'm with you mate.)

Horrible day all round.

Mike Gaynes
137 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:54:28
Peter #134, consider yourself challenged. Post the link or stop posting false information.
Jason Wilkinson
138 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:54:32
We will not be relegated. Why? because there are 3 teams worse than us in this division. We will also not trouble the top half of the table as there are 12 teams better than us. 13th-17th for us this season I'm afraid.

We will win home games. Enough to keep us up. The away form has been piss poor for years. I don't understand why as we have the greatest away support anywhere.

Maybe we should throw the dice a bit more away from home. try to win 5-4 instead of trying to nick a 1-0.

Moshiri must be asking his chosen man Brands "What have you done with my money?"

Graham Coldron
139 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:57:13
When the VAR incident was being debated, I knew there was never a possibility a penalty would finally be awarded despite Tyler and even Carragher saying it was a penalty.

When the decision was made, a family member who is a qualified referee expressed astonishment that the decision was no penalty. I said this was no surprise. Every Evertonian knew that we would be royally shafted by VAR.

Jer Kiernan
140 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:57:16
Mark @129,

Eddie Howe for me man, not only is he the best guy to deliver our great club into Bramley-Moore Dock playing attacking football

But also he deserves it, I feel, when we as a club do the right thing, we will progress.

Mike Gaynes
141 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:58:34
Jason #121, Eric #133, Holgate was in position to stop Alli after Iwobi's error. Unfortunately Alli beat him easily off the dribble and scored. To my eyes Holgate had a very good game, but he offered no challenge in that moment. Mina likewise could have done better than get nutmegged with the pass.

All that said, however, the fault lies 100% with Iwobi.

Rob Marsh
142 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:59:18
Jason #138,

Southampton will most probably start to improve, make that two teams worse than us!

With our fixtures in December, we may well become that third team, especially if Southampton do what every other team has done to us away next weekend.

Terry Farrell
143 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:59:23
Only we can receive the worst ever VAR penalty decision last week and follow it up with 2 cast iron pens that we don't get.

Richarlison was his own worst enemy. Without the theatrics, he would have got the decisions. Instead, by the time he got clubbed to the head and was felled in the box, the ref, Twatkinson, was giving him nothing.

Gutted for Gomes and Son may not be that type of player but he dived in from behind with the ball nowhere near.

Raymond Fox
144 Posted 03/11/2019 at 20:59:34
Great shame for Gomes – could very well affect his future career. We have now lost three important players probably long-term that you could say are vital for us to play well.

It's no use continually blaming Silva, we played well against West Ham, he's picked the same players that started that game when possible but they have failed to produce the same form, so who's to blame?

Watching highlights of multiple games gives a false impression of the state of the game nowadays. Unless Everton is involved, I am bored ridgid watching a full game between most of the Premier League.

Changing the manager again is not going to make these players better than they are, at least I don't think so. We are right in the smelly stuff now though I fear.

Jason Leung
145 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:00:10
Can someone explain why Son got the red card? The injury was a total freak accident... correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure the ref originally gave a yellow, saw the extent of the injury and then gave a red.
Sam Hoare
146 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:01:02
Howe, Hutter, Gallardo, Kovac, Rose, Benitez, Potter, Wilder. Maybe Emery or Pochettino?

A few decent managers around though a few of those at new clubs.

I think next weekend may well see the end of either Silva or Hassenhuhtl depending on who loses. A draw could give them both a stay of execution.

Rob Marsh
147 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:03:00
Jason # 145

You're correct, it was initially yellow, then changed to red upon a glance at the injury.

That red will probably be reversed when the panel meets.

Mark Guglielmo
148 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:03:20
Christine @131 while none of us know for certain, Brands has been quoted on multiple occasions that "his office & Silva's office are across the hall from one another" and they "confer on all decisions." What that means about who Brands actually goes out to get is your guess as good as it is mine.

But what did you mean by this? "These days its a lot murkier as to how much influence and say the manager has. If he has given a list to Brands to go out and find then fair enough but (how did we end up with 3 No 10s??) but if the players are not found who is to blame?"

Erik @135 did they really?!

Peter Griffiths
149 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:03:52
The full content link via twitter of the Gomez challenge

https://mobile.twitter.com/robinvanpolar

Mark Guglielmo
150 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:05:40
No intentions of ever seeing that again, so rather than argue I'll just take your word for it, Peter.
Anthony A Hughes
151 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:06:01
All round throughly dispiriting and depressing on all fronts. Best wishes to Gomes but we have serious problems now going forward. We have a very average squad of distinctly average footballers with a complete bland uninspiring manager.
Martin Mason
152 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:06:08
It is painful to watch our team play this unbelievably negative 4-3-2-1 with a lone striker (who isn't one) sometimes 15-20 m ahead of the narrow midfield line of 3. No joined-up link from defence to attack and no joined-up defence down each flank and using 2 mids who aren't defensive.

Seems like it is totally without point and an unchanging strategy that may work now and again by luck or against the very weakest but in general could reduce even the best squad to frustration and a club to relegation.

Not just the system but that we never try anything different unto games are apparently lost and additional strikes are thrown on in a ridiculous and usually failed attempt to recover something. Only a total idiot could do this and I believe that we have a very serious one as head coach. It's getting to be a nightmare now.

Rob Marsh
153 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:07:03
Sam # 146

The Southampton game will probably be the biggest game of the season, if lost it should mean the end for Silva and doom/despondancy for the club and fans going into that December fixture run.

This will be the game we'll all remember from this season in the future.

Eric Paul
154 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:08:29
I thought Son chased Gomes down after an incident prior to the injury, which led to the injury, a deliberate foul which was serious foul play and a definite red.
Peter Mills
155 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:09:59
To add to the midfield injury problems, my son said that Delph went down in the last second clutching his hamstring - did anyone else see that?

Dave Abrahams, you have made suggestions previously that Iwobi is not keen on the defensive, tackling side of the game. Today, the jury returned a verdict of “guilty as accused”.

Christy Ring
156 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:10:50
Why didn't he play 4-3-3? It looked a positive formation on paper, but no, his tactics were to stop Spurs playing. A totally different team from last season, and no Kane, we should have had them on the back foot, but his negativite tactics... what hope have we, going forward, when he won't pick a team to win at home? Enough!
David Pearl
157 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:11:29
I have Sky. I watched it live. They didn't show the actual break but TV shows he got his foot caught in the turf while off-balance from the lunge from Son. Aurier slid into him but not his foot onto André's leg.

The red was given as the tackle led to the result. I don't think the red will be overturned in this case. It was a harsh red card. I've a lot of time for Son, he's a cracking little player and seems a genuine guy. Nobody has a clip of when the break actually occurs. Anyway, time to move on and wish Gomes all the best for a speedy recovery.

The thing l get from this is that we seem to have quite a close-knit squad. If Silva or anyone gets these playing as they should, then look out. I'm not having this about not having the players. We do.

Martin Mason
158 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:12:41
Just saw a video of the incident and it looked like a two-man hit with Son felling Gomes with a tackle from behind and Aurier making a precision studs up foul on the stumbling Gomes with the ball well gone. Both were deliberate and pre-meditated fouls.

Aurier should be banned for life, if he escapes then it will be yet another disgrace added to the long list that soccer heaps on itself weekly.

And then I look at the dreadful Richarlison and I give up all hope for the future of both Everton and the game. Silva should be sacked just for bringing that disgrace of a human being to the club.

Tony Hill
159 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:13:19
Peter @155, I hope not. Young Baningime may have to be called upon shortly. I rate him very highly but it's getting worrying.
Ashley Roberts
160 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:13:21
Firstly, I hope Gomes makes a speedy recovery but we all know with such a serious injury we will be lucky to see one of our better players back for a considerable time. We all know, just as we have seen with Seamus, they are never the same again.

For me, we have given Silva more than long enough. He is not up for the job and looks like he might even take us down. I am betting, with the Gomes injury, we will see Schneiderlin back in the frame, which will mean the guy is unable to learn.

I know it was self-imposed but Frank Lampard has given the better youngsters a shot in the first team and look how well they are doing. It seems that 2 of our younger players, Davies and Holgate, played well today but neither has been given a real chance up to now. Why?

We have some other good young guys who are doing well in the U23s, like Gordon, so why are they not being given a shot? Something has to be done now otherwise we will have Delph and Schneiderlin anchoring our midfield for the Saints game next week and that will only end one way.

Dave Williams
161 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:14:29
Very upset about the Gomes incident and my best wishes to him for a speedy recovery back to his old self.

If it was Son who did it then the red is deserved because it was a reckless tackle with no chance of getting the ball. I'm sure he didn't mean it and he is clearly already giving himself a hard time about it but a tackle when the ball is too far away is dangerous and a red card must follow surely.

VAR is a joke as no one seems to know when it should or shouldn't be used. Personally I prefer the game without it as referee errors are part of the game and all this stopping and starting just breaks up play.

As for the game itself we were solid, only giving up two chances which yielded one goal. Terrible error by Iwobi; Mina and Holgate were both caught off balance but I thought they played very well otherwise and deserve a run of games together. Both full-backs were very ordinary save for the volleyed cross for the goal. Our crossing is atrocious and I do feel sorry for the forward players having to try to fashion a goal from the service they get.

Tom was my MotM: he had drive, determination and passed the ball very well. He and Mason were excellent and what do they have in common? Young players trying to make their way in the game!

Delph was solid, Richi needs taking in hand as Atkinson refused to give us anything and most likely because of Richarllison playacting; this is shameful and the club should not tolerate it.

The point will buy Silva more time I guess. He seems a decent man but I see no sign of us growing into a good side. He should try young Gordon wide left and move Iwobi back inside with Tom and Fabian. Problem is, he avoids picking youngsters if he can and it is them who would provide effort, energy and guts.

Get well soon, André.

Charles Brewer
162 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:17:45
Eric, it certainly looked that way. The fact that Son did not intend to end Gomes's career does not in any way affect the fact that his hack was clearly intended to take the man out and was nowhere near the ball.

A bad foul which results in an unhurt victim deserves a red. A bad foul which cripples an opponent deserves a very long ban.

Ernie Baywood
163 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:17:58
The injury isn't a freak accident. He intended to put one on him - he wasn't going for the ball. So, he didn't intend to break his leg - ok then we won't charge with him with assault or bring a civil case against him. But a red card and ban is absolutely just. He deserves at least that.

On the game itself, we saw Silva back to his basic best. Big team? Extra midfielders. Winning? Extra defenders. Losing? Extra attackers. He's done it since day one. I could write a simple Microsoft Excel formula that could adequately replace Silva as manager.

Anyone saying Richarlison 'goes down too easily' needs to think again. Call him a cheat. That's what he is. I'm finding it hard to watch him. And while he's lying on the floor we're a player down.

On VAR. It's pretty simple. I wrote on here after the penalty at Brighton that players are going to be falling over instantly in the box. If I knew that, why did the authorities not know it?

It's a terrible implementation. A complete balls up. And they had other leagues to base their implementation on so they can't excuse what they've done. Heads have to roll - football is watched by millions and deals in billions of pounds. How do you get away with such a cock up?

The phrase "killing football" gets overused. But this is killing football - the experience is being ruined and we're not even getting consistent decisions!

Bollocks to everything and everyone. Except Andre Gomes - best of luck to him.

Steve Ferns
164 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:21:36
Dave, I’ll not watch a replay. Gomes was my favourite of the current lot, elevated as well by his conduct off the pitch.

I saw Gomes go past Son, and Son fall to the floor holding his face. They did a VAR check, I think as there was that many I’m unsure, but Son stayed close to Gomes instead of going back into attack. He waited for Gomes to get the ball and then he lunged in.

I’m not having it that this was not premeditated. Son waited to go in on Gomes. He went in on Gomes. Maybe it was Aurier who did the damage but Son’s lunge caused it. Son did not wait by Gomes to mark him. He wanted to do him. It was completely pre-meditated and it is the worst kind of foul. I hope he gets punished to the fullest extent of the rules.

Bill Watson
165 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:22:02
An absolutely horrible game allied to weak refereeing, incomprehensible VAR decisions and the terrible injury to Gomes. We're well and truly in the relegation dogfight and with the sqaud we have that is disgraceful.

At the last AGM, Moshiri said mid-table wasn't acceptable; at the moment mid-table looks out of reach for this mis-managed squad. Moshiri must step up and acknowledge he made a mistake with Silva; every game he delays is a game nearer the Championship.

In his 50 odd games, Silva has demonstrated his complete inability to set a team up, cost us countless points with his ludicrous zonal marking, and his substitutions are often rushed in a desperate attempt to save the game.

Why wait until the probable debacles against Southampton and Norwich? Get rid now whilst there's still time for someone to rescue this train wreck of a season.

Peter Neilson
166 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:24:00
Eric (154) that's the way it appeared to me as well in the Main Stand. Media going into overdrive to exonerate Son. Amazing quote “Son caused it but wasn't to blame.”

Apparently Peter Walton sent off Shawcross after the Ramsey tackle 10 or so years ago and changed the card to a red after understanding the extent of the injury. Ref on the radio tonight after the game was explaining this is a valid reason for showing red.

Tony Hill
167 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:25:43
Dave @161, quite right about Holgate and Davies, both very encouraging indeed.

I'd like to put in another word for Tosun. He never complains, he looks a fine team man, he has a quick football brain and he isn't a bad finisher at all. He's not going to launch us up the table, but I like him.

Rory Grant
168 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:27:48
Allan #128, totally right. After every miserable showing like today we get closer to relegation. Have to be deluded not to see that, with this point average we are out. Straight and simple. Gomes, VAR, referees etc cannot wipe that out.

Nice that Coleman found time and consideration to comfort the player who has in all likelihood ended your teammate's career. Freak accident, never intentional, he is not like that etc etc. He did it, that's the fact. Coleman personified all that is wrong with our attitude. Pathetic.

Darren Hind
169 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:28:19
Holgate was our best player.

Iwobis pass caught the whole team going forward. after the nutmeg Holgate had little option but to race back, He needed to ensure Ali wasnt clean through, but in the process it has to be said, he sold himself and Ali was able to change direction and was in to shoot with his favoured right.

He should kept him on his left.

So many depressing things happening today.

Lyndon penned a piece about "mishandling" Kean recently. I agree with him more tonight than I did this morning.
I've just about had a belly full of Richarlison. You try to overlook the fact that he is footballs biggest fanny because he is capable, but His antics turn my stomach. Kean must have been sitting there thinking. "why am I sitting here when that prick has spent all avy rolling around in faux agony ?"

Silva just used up his eighth life.

Too upset to talk about Gomes. All happened too quick for me to be sure. So I will leave it alone

Andy Crooks
170 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:30:54
Interesting, Brian @ 98 that you have had little response to this. But apparently on the match day thread anything goes. On another thread Tony has, fairly, as I responded, pointed out that "love", is a term reserved for friends and family. So he "supports" Everton.

Everyone demonstrates their support in different ways. Tony, by hoping we will lose and describing the coach as a "cancer". I hope Tony doesn't find this post "snidey", particularly now that I am his "boyfriend".

Proper blue, is Tony, calls it as he sees it. Top man.

Ray Robinson
171 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:32:57
I excuse Richarlison a lot because he's an Everton player and he scores goals but, out of him or Tosun, who would you rather have as a mate?

Irrelevant in terms of footballing ability, I know, but I've had my fill of Richarlison's embarrassing antics.

Poor André Gomes. I wish him all the best.

Brent Stephens
172 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:33:22
Was Davies substituted because he confronted Silva?
Christine Foster
173 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:34:17
Mark G @148,

Simple question: Who made the decision to buy 3 No10s? Rooney, Sigurdsson and Klaassen? I doubt that was Silva.

We can speculate but my point was that, since Directors of Football are now regularly appointed "to work with" managers, responsibility for purchases and transfer selection are not now the domain solely of managers. Hence who takes responsibility? It wasn't Brands but his predecessor but irrelevant regarding the manager.

The manager's job now is increasingly limited to training, team selection and matchday performance... the rest is getting grey...

Ray Roche
174 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:34:43
Tony @167,
I said only last week that I think that Tosun deserves a bit more game time. Four appearances, two assists and one goal – and all from the bench. Not too shabby.
Paul Birmingham
175 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:37:42
Yep a very bleak day, possibly one of the bleakest over loads of bleak days at GP, over the years.

Son should get a lengthy ban for his recklessness, the officials as well, as they were shocking, but we knew they would be as, true to form over the years, that referee has been a major burden on Everton results and his shocking decisions.

I hope that the squad will show more adventure and belief at a Southampton, but characters in the team, and belief, are in short supply.

The next 2 games in this form are our main chances of points the next couple of months. Let's hope Beni gets into the squad and can pick up, but it's been a long, long time.

I guess Schneider if fit will be back in the middle next week.

Hope eternal.

Mark Guglielmo
176 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:39:09
Christine @173 that's why I asked. You do know that all of those were before Brands & Silva, right?

Okay, I see the confusion now. You used an example not made by either of our current guys to illustrate how a DoF and manager do or don't make decisions. Hard to say, we've never had a DoF before Brands.

Colin Glassar
177 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:40:51
A very sad and tragic accident. I feel gutted for Gomes (who may never fully recover) and for Son who was obviously distraught.

An awful game capped by an awful injury. What the hell is going on at Goodison? Dark days indeed.

Paul Tran
178 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:45:49
I watched it on a stream. Son, in that moment, wanted to do Gomes. He didn't think in the heat of the moment. When he saw what he'd done, it hit him like a ton of bricks. His decision. It doesn't absolve him from blame or the consequences of his decision.

We should stand up here. Poor decisions going against us in consecutive weeks. You can respect the law and be critical of its application. That is where we should stand up.

Brent Stephens
179 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:46:06
Did we really have two centre-backs covering Iwobi's mistake?! And...
John McFarlane Snr
180 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:52:35
Hi Jamie [36],

You say that you 'think this is the most depressing game in your 12 years as a born blue''. I would say, that you must have 'led a sheltered life'. I'm not wishing to be controversial, but am I right in thinking that you are one of our American supporters? If so, you can always switch off your TV.

As a season ticket holder, it may be argued that I could relinquish that privilege but, as a supporter since 1948, my feelings for Everton are deep-rooted. I suffer along with thousands of other 'Blues'; we are sometimes accused of accepting mediocrity, the truth is we endure mediocrity because we can do nothing to alter matters.

Jamie, if you intend to be a 'Blue' for the long run, be prepared for 'One or Two' bouts of depression, it's the lot of a Football Supporter, but nothing lasts for ever.

Darren Hind
181 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:52:44
I didn't think today could get any worse. I've just seen Alli "not handling it"... Why does this shit always happen to us?

I must have burned down an orphanage in a former life... or one of you fuckers did!

Tony Abrahams
182 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:53:36
Covering or clamouring back, Brent? I'd say it was the latter and am intrigued to hear what you thought you'd seen between Davies and Silva, mate?
Terry White
183 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:58:45
Peter (#155), yes, I saw Delph holding his hamstring immediately after Sidibe sold him short with the pass right at the end of the game. Why didn't Sidibe cross it?

Couple of things from my view on US TV.

I agree completely with Mike Gayne's assertions that Auirier was not to blame for Gomes's injury. After the tackle by Son, Gomes is still moving forward with the ball but as his foot is planted and his foot twists there is a look of pain on his face as he is falling and before he falls into Aurier. The ball is on the ground, Aurier has every right to make the tackle, but Gomes falls into him.

Belatedly, on our coverage, a camera angle of the handball by Deli was shown which apparently was not available to the VAR review. It clearly shows a handball. Why was this not available? Why have VAR when everybody is watching TV replays and not all of them were available to make the correct decision?

Martin Mason
184 Posted 03/11/2019 at 21:58:55
Christine @173.

I believe that now the Head Coach advises the DoF of his requirements and who he gets and at what price are determined by the DoF and the Chairman. The Head Coach will have an input but would have no veto only perhaps a choice.

This would vary from club to club but in a set up like Everton's or Spurs' the Head Coach isn't a manager but a reportee to the DoF. I'm not sure that any clubs have a "Manager" now and, given the turnover of modern Premier League, clubs quite right.

A head Coach should be that without the additional responsibility of dealing with player purchases and contracts.

Andy Crooks
185 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:03:51
Darren, I was out today, didn't see the game or know the result. Got on to ToffeeWeb while running over in my mind the likely headline. I always expect the worst but not this. Everton never, ever, ever fail to surprise and never, ever in a good way. Gutted for Gomes.
Brent Stephens
186 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:04:47
Tony #182 "Covering or clamouring back Brent? I’d say it was the latter"

Tony, I suspect clambouring back (sorry can't spell that) and not covering effectively.

"and am intrigued to hear what you thought you’d seen between Davies and Silva, mate?"

Tony, I'm just picking up on what others have been saying. A bit of a spat between them??

Jim Wilson
187 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:05:51
A couple of things:

So so sorry for Gomes and I hope he recovers quickly.

Get rid of Silva ASAP, I don't want to spend another week frustrated and worrying about our position with that clown in charge.

Get him out of our club and bring in Mourinho who is a character who will ensure more wins for us than Silva ever could,

By the time our stupid board realises Silva must go there won't be any top line managers out there and we will gamble on yet another prick.

GET RID OF HIM NOW

Stephen Brown
188 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:07:05
Not sure if this has been said but hats off to Cenk Tosun. First on hand to help Gomes, scores the equaliser and by all accounts helped Son after the game!

Also keeps trying hard despite it not quite happening here! Well done Cenk!

Brent Stephens
189 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:08:15
I can't believe people are saying the tackle on Gomes was "intentional" – i.e. INTENDED to break a leg. Really?! Son is NOT that sort of player.
Michael Kenrick
190 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:11:33
Brent,

I think they are saying he intended to foul (or stop) him. Obviously he never intended to break his ankle. No player does that.

Peter Mills
191 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:14:12
Again relying on the eyes of my son who sits in Lower Gwladys, rather than my own at the other end of the pitch, Davies substituted himself after seeing the injury to Gomes.
Tony Abrahams
192 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:20:00
Now that VAR is here, let’s hope they get to the bottom of the people in-charge.

Why can’t the refs explain to us? Is it because of the industrial language used in football that they can’t/won’t Mike-up these refs, who are obviously taking instructions from the VAR studio.

Let’s make football transparent, and we might begin to get better officiating, because as it stands the standard of refereeing is not good enough, and it’s definitely not consistent enough either.

Brent Stephens
193 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:23:32
Michael #190 I heard that accusation at the game. Disgraceful. We're in agreement.
Christine Foster
194 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:27:32
Martin M 184* Yep I full understand the principal of a DoF and "head coach" and I agree the "head coach" should not get involved in contracts or purchases
But if the club (not the coach) has the final say on who is bought do they not bear responsibility if they do not buy the right players? Or the players the coach asked for or needed?

Thats my point.. responsibility for team selection is made by the "coach" but the individuals purchased by the club is not his alone.

If a "coach" is responsible for team performance it must be shared by those who bought players who may or may not have been the coach's choice or were not bought at all.

That's not saying Silva is not to blame but perhaps not solely!

Dave Abrahams
195 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:30:40
Nobody’s mentioned the great pass by Gomes, in the first half that put Richarlison with a clear path to goal, but instead of letting the ball go past him and run onto it, he stopped the ball then turned his back to the goal. It was a clear chance that he messed up.
John Keating
196 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:31:40
What a day.
A wasted day watching that shite. Got home and watched a few bits on the telly just to check if things were what I thought. Most were.

The game itself was absolutely dire. We were abysmal.
The ref was an absolute disgrace
I thought VAR was a mistake before it was introduced and since t was introduced nothing has changed my mind. After today supporters should kick up shit because it is ruining our game.

Richie is a disgrace and is becoming an embarrassment to himself and the Club.

Holgate and Davies have to stay in the team, however, after Bernard and the Gomes incident, that won't be an issue.

Regarding Gomes, well everything has been said. However it will not surprise me if the red card is appealed and downgraded to yellow.
Son Defoe meant to foul Gomes. The stumble/stubs getting caught broke the ankle. The other Spurs player went in whilst Gomes was going down.
I saw the Son tackle and the other Spurs guy clattering into Gomes but had' realised it was bad until the players reacted.

The manager has to carry the can for this shambles of a season regardless of inept senior management contributions.
We really are in the shit

Peter Neilson
197 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:31:57
Martin (184) Christine (173) we now have around 38 Directors and Heads of Department. No wonder there’s confusion as to where responsibility lies.
Brent Stephens
198 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:32:12
And Richarlison was a disgrace with the number of times he went to ground.
Tony Abrahams
199 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:32:35
Do you think Coleman or any Everton player would have went into the Spurs changing room to console Son, if they had felt that he had done this on purpose?

Football has got so much to sort out, and the biggest thing wrong with the sport is that cheating is accepted.

It’s okay if it goes our way, but it’s not when it doesn’t, and VAR is not doing anything positive to change this. How can it be when some of us are genuinely even questioning the integrity of so many officials.

I’m like a scratched record, but for the sake of our/my sanity, why can’t they Mike-up these refs?

James Carroll
200 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:33:48
Silva is the luckiest manager in the world.
He keeps getting these get-out-of-jail-free cards which save his job each week.
He should have been fired after Man City - but the excuse was "Oh, it's Man City - and we played well and only lost 3-1!"
He should have been fired after Burnley - but it was then all about Coleman's red card...and how that "changed the whole game".
He should have been fired after Brighton - but then it was all about VAR and the penalty which "changed the whole game".
Now he should be fired after another dismal game (and we are SEVENTEENTH!) against Spurs - but now it's all about the Gomes injury overshadowing everything - plus more VAR shite.
He has been so lucky to have a great 'excuse' after four horrible games - we are still seventeenth - and he is a horrible excuse of a manager.
Rick Tarleton
201 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:34:03
Watching on TV, I thought Aurier was the one whose tackle did the damage. Son fouled Gomes, but the actual tackle that did the damage seemed to be Aurier's. I hope they review it as assiduously as they "Varred" every other issue, so that Son gets some comfort.
Var, like Atkinson himself, starts from the default of looking after the interests of the big 6 clubs. Like John Mcfarlane, I have been an Evertonian since the early fifties, seen great times and great teams, but the present team is not up to the mark.
Davies and Holgate were our best players, which speaks volumes for our recruitment and transfer dealings, under Silva, Allardyce, Koeman et alia.
Feeling very low about Everton's prospects.
Charles Brewer
202 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:34:44
Michael, well done on unpacking what has been said above.

Son's foul was certainly intentional. However, I'm certain that he did not intend to break Gomes ankle. However, he did intend to harm him, it's just his action resulted in a worse outcome than he would have liked. This does not absolve him of any responsibility.

I would also remind you of Neil Ruddock's tackle on Andy Cole, Roy Keane's deliberate crippling of Alf-Inge Haarland, and more locally, Jimmy Case on Geoff Nulty.

There have certainly been players who deliberately set out to injure others. I would certainly not put Son in this group, he's a player whose style I like, but his actions today deserve serious criticism.

Chris Jenkins
203 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:35:04
League position now is critical- another two points lost

Relegation is looking more and more probable and will become reality unless decisive action is taken.

Silva must go and arguably Brands too

David Moyes is probably the only sensible choice as next manager in the current situation even if only a short term appointment to preserve premiership status

Paul A Smith
204 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:35:45
Gutted for Gomes. Son might not be a bad lad but in my eyes he was clearly angry he had been elbowed and wanted to annoy Gomes.

He didn't mean for the outcome in any way shape or form but it shows what an angry reaction can do.

That is my opinion of it. I thought we were the better team and Spurs only took the lead through a mistake from the poor Iwobi.

What he does as a player I don't know and now Gomes is out we look very very weak in all positions centrally.

I wish Gomes a healthy recovery but it will be hard to count him as an Everton player again sadly..
I don't see him coming back to this level after an injury like that.

Steve Ferns
205 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:36:42
Son was playing up top. He went to the floor a minute or so before the incident. This was by the managers dugout in front of the main stand just over the halfway line, close to the touch line. Gomes held off Son. Son went down clutching his face. Son seemed to imply an elbow. Son had been one of the spurs front three playing either on the left or down the middle with licence to wander.

After getting up he did not recover his position. He waited and his first action was to lunge in on Gomes.

Coincidence?

I think not. I think Son was waiting from him and Son was always going to get Gomes back for the elbow or whatever he thought Gomes did.

He lunged in with full intent to catch Gomes. There is no doubt in my mind that this was a deliberate and intentional act.

Of course, he did not intent to cause serious injury. God knows what he was thinking. But he waited out of position and went in lunging at the guy who he thought wronged him.

Premedited and deliberate.

Jay Burke
206 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:41:46
James @ 200 - couldn't agree more with you. The Gomes injury deflects attention from what was, for the most part, another inept performance. Everyone and his dog can see it's simply a matter of time before Silva is shown the door. I just wish the board would do us all a favour and put him out of misery in the hope that we can salvage something, not least some pride, out of what is quickly decending into a horrible season.
Paul A Smith
207 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:42:20
Andy Gray was spot on over the weekend in my opinion and his points on our recruitment being shocking are something I have stressed for a while.

Now the manager is without another key midfielder who has only just got going and very edgy at Centre back.

I thought Holgate and Mina were superb today I must add.

Eddie Dunn
208 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:42:52
I was listening on 5- live to the second half on the M4, in attrocious conditions as an accident had just happened and blue lights everwhere. My wife had the commentary on her phone for me as the terrible incident played -out. I did look at the replay on youtube and it is clear that Son wanted retribution on Gomes for a previous incident, but at worst he was trying to nick the ball off him or trip him. Son firstly tried to catch Iwobi before seeing Gomes ahead. It was very unfortunate that Aurier trod on the flying Gomes helping to keep the foot in the turf as the momentum from the trip pushed him forward. Neither man went out to break his ankle but Son did try to foul him and so is guilty of causing the injury.
It shows that a duty of care needs to be respected to other players even if you do feel aggreived.
I hope that Andre can come back from this but fear he will never be as good.
At least his game is not about pace, so there is more hope for him. Fingers crossed for another unlucky Everton player...why us?
Brent Stephens
209 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:43:50
Steve "Premeditated and deliberate".

But by your own analysis the leg break wasn't premeditated and deliberate - " he did not intent [sic] to cause serious injury".

Peter Neilson
210 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:47:35
Steve (205) that sums up what I saw.
Sean Kelly
211 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:47:46
Just read the Coleman was consoling Son and the spurs deressingroom. Now I know seamus has had his difficult times but this was intentional and I don't give a fuck about son crying. He done Gomes. The poor sod may have a career ending injury and Coleman is consoling them. FFS Seamus!
What happened on the pitch wasn't Everton in the community charity it was a disgusting revenge attack on YOUR team mate.
Now I may get slated for this and I'm normally a Seamus supporter but fuck it you look after your own first.
With another 90 minutes of shite football and Silva not having a clue how to win matches I fear the worst. The excuse file for Silva is building up. Var, injuries, being careful to introduce new players, new players in new country. Lets be hard nose Everton for a change. Sack Silva get rid of those just picking up a wage without a performance. Time to grow a pair Moshiri.
Christy Ring
212 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:48:34
I’m one oh André’s biggest fans, as Tim said during the game, he’s our Ericksen, and irreplaceable as far as I’m concerned. I know Son was inconsolable, but after Gomes brushed him away, with his arm fairly, which was checked by VAR, Son caught him from behind, retribution, what happened was horrific, and wasn’t his intention, but that’s a lot of good to André
Jonathan Tasker
213 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:50:44
Brands has been an unmitigated disaster

He’s paid a fortune, has spent hundreds of millions yet the overall squad strength is the worst for years

Rob Marsh
214 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:51:41
There's a lot of folks on here looking at the Gomez incident with very angry blue tinted spectacles on.

Song did no more than tap Gomez on the foot, whether he was honestly going for the ball or he wanted to bring Gomez down only he knows?

One thing I do know is the contact with Gomez was never ever a leg breaking challenge and it was as the ref thought by producing a yellow at first. Gomez tragically planted his foot in the ground while his body momentum was going in a different direction, could Song have had any idea that was going to happen?

Mark Guglielmo
215 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:52:48
Charles @202 "However, he did intend to harm him, it's just his action resulted in a worse outcome than he would have liked."

This bothers me to no end. You have zero clue and this is 100% a baseless accusation. He did what 1,000s of footballers have done since the game was invented; made a reckless and dangerous tackle. It's why red cards exist. 99% of these tackles don't result in any injury at all, let alone one of this apparent severity. So you must feel this way about every single similar tackle, right?
.
We're all gutted for Gomes, but your comment here is ridiculous IMO. I'm willing to bet had it been Gomes making a tackle that resulted in Son breaking his leg you wouldn't have spent 3 seconds of your day thinking about it.

Very disheartening to see any Blues supporter thinking this way.

Chris Hockenhull
216 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:55:29
Too often this happens to us...Oviedo...McCarthy...Bolasie...Coleman...now Gomes. Not the usual “out for a couple of games” but huge parts is seasons and never to return the same again. Just remind me if our lovable neighbours ever have runs like this ever???? No luck ever builds on my belief we are absolutely cursed. The only crumb of comfort to emerge from this horrible day was the way Cahill ripped into Carragher in the post match session. Spit the Dig had a face like a smacked arse and didn’t like it one bit as Cahill baited him whenever he could Well done Tim!!!
Andrew Presly
217 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:55:33
It Gomes.

Andre Gomes.

E-S

Robert Williams
218 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:56:16
John Davies 136 - and many others here on TW today -

I agree with much that has been said and I too feel awful about the trauma that Andre received. I did not see the 'foul' I was in UB2 but could immediately tell that it was a serious accident by the way the staff flocked to the stricken player.
I wish Andre a speedy recovery.

I also wish I could extend the same wish to Everton Football Club - a speedy recovery- but I fear that speedy it will not be!

To say that I am totally despondent about the state of play at Everton - the way the game is going, not helped by VAR and referees that are incapable of making the right decisions at the right time, is an understatement.

To say that I am totally frustrated and really pissed off at the play-acting of Richarlison is also an understatement.

Football at Goodison Park in the 21st Century is not what I willingly paid to see. Directing their comments, probably at VAR, the Spurs fans today called to have their Game of football back - I do not see that happening, we are on a downward slope. There is no going back, there is no quick fix for football as we knew it - money, greed, poor management, lack of commitment, fans expectations have now taken Football/Soccer too far away. It is all about money!! There is nothing to clap about at Goodison these days - how sad therefore that the loudest and longest clapping today was for Andre Gomes being stretchered out of the Park End.

Coming back to that No7 of ours, he may be top scorer, he may be many things but to my mind he is an absolute disgrace to himself, to the club and to the fans many of whom sat around me today and showed complete shame at the way he conducted himself on the pitch. The sooner someone in authority tells him how to behave, the better.

I may have said this before, but it is days like this that have driven a wedge between me a loyal fan and the current Everton set-up. It is days like this that confirm my thinking that it is time to stop going the game. This will be my last season - such a pity it should end this way.

Danny Broderick
219 Posted 03/11/2019 at 22:58:36
For people saying Gomes might not be the same player when he comes back, Djibril Cisse had a horrendous leg break a few years back and managed to recover well and not lose any of his physicality and pace. Seamus Coleman also seems to have made a full recovery from a similar injury - although Father Time appears to be catching up with him now...

Medical treatment has improved immeasurably over the years - hopefully Gomes can make it back and still be the same player.

I also don’t think you can attach any blame to Son. He had been knocked by Gomes just before, he was aggrieved and wanted to give him a knock back. Gomes himself has done similar several times, most players who have ever played the game have. But all Son wanted to do was trip him up. The injury was more to do with Gomes getting his studs caught in the turf and Aurier making a blocking challenge at the same time than Son’s challenge, which was fairly innocuous to me.

Someone has said it previously, but what a guy Cenk Tosun is. He never complains, always gives 100% and wants to stay and fight for his place. Today, he was first on the scene consoling Gomes, he scored the equaliser, and even found time to check on Son after the game. What a genuine guy he is. I hope it works out for him here at Everton, because he can score goals if he is given the service, but he needs the team to provide for him...

Brent Stephens
220 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:03:04
Mark #215 I agree with you about the absurdity of anybody assuming they know what the intent was in the tackle. Intended to break his leg?! Son intended that?!
Steve Ferns
221 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:04:08
MOTD2 doesn’t show the earlier incident. Just the lunge.

Brent in law the act can be premeditated and deliberate without intending to cause the injury sustained. If you jab someone and they fall and hurt their head and suffer serious injury it doesn’t take away your intent to carry out an act of vengeance. It’s mitigation as to why you could be dealt with less seriously than if you had intended to cause the injury sustained.

Son waited for him. Son stayed out of position. Son then lunged for him. This was a deliberate act. He thought about it before he did it. It was premeditated.

Andrew Keatley
222 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:04:23
Sean (211) - Seamus did look after his own first. He was straight off the bench - remember he was not playing in the game - and went over to Gomes. When he saw how serious it was he was frantically calling over the medical staff. This is a player who experienced a horrific double leg-break himself two and a half years ago; I think he knows better than anyone the potential severity of the situation.

I think Seamus Coleman - and our other players - have solidarity with Gomes. But that doesn’t preclude them from showing compassion to the Spurs players, some of whom would have also been horrified by what happened, especially Son and Aurier. I think he’s a class act - especially considering the difficult emotions he himself must have been suffering.

Ernie Baywood
224 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:07:39
It feels like we're searching for black and white with the Gomes incident. Either Son's a vile bastard or he's completely blameless.

Very little is that simple. Of course he didn't intend to break his leg. If he deliberately fouled him at that distance away from the ball with the intent of breaking his leg then you're talking about a life ban and criminal charges.

We're talking about a red card. Just a red card.

It's not an accident when you deliberately foul someone and they get seriously injured. You might not have desired that outcome but the unlawful act that you deliberately committed had the potential to bring it about. To let him off with that is the coward's punch defence - "usually when I punch people they don't fall and hit their head on the kerb". Guilty right? If you deliberately do something wrong then you're responsible for any reasonably likely outcome.

I can have some sympathy for Son while absolutely holding him responsible and expecting the red card to be upheld. He made a mistake; a rash foul in a heated game. He didn't stamp on the guy, he just petulantly brought him down. The outcome was so much worse than he intended but that's the chance you take when you deliberately try to bring a player down

Brent Stephens
225 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:09:34
Haha! Don't agree so delete.
Mark Guglielmo
226 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:10:32
I've been told from what seems like a decent source that it's a serious break and dislocation, and is having surgery tomorrow. I cannot confirm this but it came from one of the matchday paramedics. It's possible this isn't the worst outcome we've feared. Fingers crossed.
Steve Ferns
227 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:12:20
Mark. I’ve now seen the pictures. It’s a terrible injury. It’s the ankle. The ligaments will be damaged. He might not recover from that. Ankles are delicate.
Ernie Baywood
228 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:12:56
Mark: "He did what 1,000s of footballers have done since the game was invented; made a reckless and dangerous tackle."

When you tackle you go for the ball.

Now I'll agree that plenty of people have gone for the player without wanting to seriously hurt them (leaving one on them might be another way of referring to it). That's pretty much what Son did.

And don't start with that "you can't 100% know his intent" stuff. If you run after a guy and bring him down, you meant to foul him - let's at least get that bit straight. It's not even in question.

Rob Halligan
229 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:14:09
Chris Jenkins #203. How on earth can you blame Silva for that today? Do you think he told Iwobi to pass the ball to the Spurs player in the lead up to their goal? Do you think he was to blame for VAR turning down two blatant penalties which would have comfortably win us the game?

The serious injury to Gomes would have affected all our players, and in the end I thought we did very well to get a point out of the game. But of course, you, no doubt watching from your little screen, thought it was all Silva's fault. It's posts like yours that want to make me vomit.

This will be my last post on here, and to be honest, I won’t miss the absolute shite that is written on here.

So thank you and good riddance to the lot of you.

Mark Guglielmo
230 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:14:47
Steve @221 we're talking about 2 football players here, not a court of law. Premeditated is typically reserved for capitol offenses. Might want to go walk around the block or something.
Brent Stephens
231 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:16:26
Steve #221 "If you jab someone and they fall and hurt their head and suffer serious injury it doesn’t take away your intent to carry out an act of vengeance. It’s mitigation as to why you could be dealt with less seriously than if you had intended to cause the injury sustained".

Exactly.

Steve Ferns
232 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:17:13
Minor offences can be premeditated in the UK Mark, we have a different system of law. There’s also no such thing as capitol offences.
James Marshall
233 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:17:55
I'm not sure if it's been talked about on here but the Son tackle didn't injure Gomes, it was his planted foot and Aurier's challenge that broke his ankle. Son tripped him up, but the injury happens afterwards.

You can say that due to Son tripping him up he then lands awkwardly, and Aurier turns his foot over (there's a photo on Twitter showing Gomes ankle turning the opposite way to the way it was hanging to the right later) so in truth it was a combination of things all happening very quickly.

Personally I don't think Son tried to injure Gomes, and it's 3 things happening very very quickly that lead to the injury. As numerous ex pros have said, it's more of an accident than an intentional injury.

We can argue about it till we're blue in the face, and God knows when I've had serious injuries (broken arms, legs, back twice) I've run them over in my head (sometimes for years) but ultimately it's meaningless and the only thing that matters is recovery.

Mark Guglielmo
234 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:18:36
Ernie @228 sometimes they go for the ball. You're not telling me this is the first time you've seen such a play, are you? If Andre's cleats don't get caught, we're not having this discussion. It's just a reckless, dangerous tackle. And as I mentioned, is why red cards exist.

Intentional fouls happen. Freak results rarely do.

James Flynn
235 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:18:40
Brent (172) - Saw Davies and Marco having that back and forth on the sideline. a giant leap to conclusions referring to that as "confronting."
Sean Kelly
237 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:21:02
Andrew maybe I’m not as charitable as you but I couldn’t give a flying fuck about any other teams players emotions. The snidey sod done Gomes.
Brent Stephens
238 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:21:30
James, I wasn't leaping so much as reflecting on the leaps of others.
Mark Guglielmo
239 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:22:42
Steve @232 did not know that. Your entire nation should go walk around the block ;-)

But still, it's footballers. I won't be callous and trivialize this with "shit happens," but only because of how bad the injury is. I noted above that 99% off the time, an intentional foul doesn't result in this outcome. Some people here are acting like Son took out his knees with a tire iron.

Sean Kelly
240 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:23:46
Spot on Rob
Peter Neilson
241 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:24:49
Mark [230] there are laws of the game and premeditated actions and precedent apply e.g. Shawcross and Ramsey. These will apply if Spurs decide to appeal. Not a case of taking a walk down the street.
Daniel A Johnson
242 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:25:42
Don't think I've ever been so depressed after a match as I was tonight.

A confirmed ankle break with dislocation. Obviously a serious injury but with great surgery, good healing/recovery and physio he can come back from this. Mentally it will be tough for him but I'm sure Seamus and the boys will be there for him every step of the way.

I must also congratulate Tosun today. He was first on the scene with Gomes looking after him and rather than being upset/disturbed by what he witnessed it fired him up and he got the goal. Sometimes bad times can bring you together, if ever the squad needed motivation to pull together its now...……..come on you blues were all down but were not fucking out.

Steve Ferns
243 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:25:51
Mark he waited for him. He lunged at him. It’s not that he made a reckless tackle, he had it in his mind to “do him”. Gomes got done. That he got much more done, and horrifically so, doesn’t matter. The intent was there by waiting for him, out of position, and then his first act after being aggrieved was to lunge at Gomes. That’s all that’s needed for it to be deliberate and premeditated. And that is the worst type of foul. Those are the ones that cause the worst injuries.
Mark Guglielmo
244 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:27:02
Rob @229 I'm hoping you lurk for a few after your post, because I’d hate it if you left. I really enjoy your posts and have enjoyed my interactions with you, however few they've been. We're not all terrible. Please reconsider :-)
Andy Crooks
245 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:27:10
Rob, think about your post tomorrow and reconsider. It would be a shame for an Evertonian like you to walk away while "supporters", who want our team to lose, who blame Silva for the Gomes injury, who use the word cancer quite randomly and without any regard to the offence it might cause, continue to pollute this site with, vile, toxic anti Everton bile.
They offer no solutions, no debate, no reason, no argument, just hatred of the club. They criticise the rest of us for accepting mediocrity whilst not offering one fucking thing to demonstrate their non acceptance if it.
Toy soldiers, foaming at the mouth. Shameful.
Mark Guglielmo
246 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:29:00
Here, here Andy. We probably shared the brain cells to write our comments.
Ernie Baywood
247 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:29:34
Mark, did you just invent something I didn't say and then argue against it? Not sure what your last post refers to.

If you deliberately do something that causes a freak result then you are culpable. That's not the same as saying that you intended to break someone's leg.

I'm not asking for hanging to be brought back, I'm suggesting that Son is responsible for the injury and deserves his red card.

I swear that Sky TV and the FA rules panel has warped people's minds. They've been told what a leg breaker looks like and anything else is completely innocent.

There's nothing innocent about that foul. Try it in a Sunday League game.

Ian Jones
248 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:29:51
Agree with Mark above. Rob, don't go silent. Your input is valued by many...
Steve Ferns
249 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:30:29
Spot on Daniel. I’ve been extremely hard on Tosun. He’s proved me wrong a few time’s this season. He showed, not for the first time, that he can be a real warrior for the team.

We need warriors right now. We need players who will fight. I thought we did fight to get that goal back and we need our beat fighters in the XI. We can worry about finesse in a few weeks time when we are hopefully back up the table.

Cenk Tosun could have thrown the towel in and counted his wages. He’s done nothing but work and he deserves a chance to show he can lead the line.

Does anyone else think that the game on MOTD2 looked nothing like the game they watched? Clever editing actually made us look like we gave spurs a good game and should have won? I’m a bit confused at that tbh!

Bobby Thomas
250 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:31:11
The players are beginning to look rather confidence shot. It's clear to me that Silva and his staff are unable to inject the self-belief and mental strength top sides have. It took the Gomes injury for the players to raise themselves. Relegation is a real possibility. We are a poor side. Meek. We lack goals.

Someone above said that we won't go down as there's 3 sides worse than us. Really? At this point I'm not so sure. We do have a decent squad and some talented players. But it's the lack of character that concerns me. There's no balls, no thirst for a fight. I don't think this bunch of players are equipped for the deep shit we are sleep-walking into. And Silva and his staff just don't have what it takes to equip them. This is too big for him. His team almost represents him. We are a personality free, characterless, beige, void of an outfit.

I had little expectation of a win today. If they haven't done it already, the board needs to meet this week and sort a plan of action. After we inevitably get beat next week, Silva needs to be dismissed before this gets messy. We can then use the 2 week break to appoint and regroup.

Daniel A Johnson
251 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:32:26
Rob please reconsider, one of our own has been horrifically injured and were all upset and angry.

Some are being philosophical about it for others its still a bit raw.

We love the club and the players and no one wants to see that happen to a boy in blue ever. I would ignore much of what is said at the moment as its said with raw emotion.

Steve Ferns
252 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:32:37
Sorry missed Rob Halligan’s post. If Rob leaves the site, then we’ve lost one of the most loyal and committed Evertonians.

Rob didn’t miss a game home or away last season. How many on this site can say that?

Rob is the truest of blues.

Ciarán McGlone
253 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:32:50
"So thank you and good riddance to the lot of you."


Post of the day... bravo young man, bravo.

Grade A flouncing.

Brent Stephens
254 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:34:32
Steve #243 "he had it in his mind to “do him”".

Evidence for that, Steve?! IN HIS MIND?! Evidence for that in a court of law? Were you in his mind? Who was?

And what does "do him" mean in your case in a court of law?

Mark Guglielmo
255 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:35:37
Ernie @247 appreciate the clarification, I didn't take it that way initially. Can't disagree with you now so I shall not.
Jay Burke
256 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:38:22
To constitute a sending off offence, a tackle or challenge has to be one that "endangers the safety of an opponent". Does the Son tackle fall into that definition? That's open for debate. I'm sure the Spurs lawyers will make the case for him.

But, as has been said, I think Son's frustration got the better of him, and what was evidently a deliberate snide tackle, precipitated an unintended outcome. Unintentional doesn't make it unforeseeable though, and he has to live with that.

Brent Stephens
257 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:38:32
Rob, don't you dare leave us!
Steve Ferns
258 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:38:47
Brent. He waited for him. He didn’t retake his position. Why would he wait out of position. Why would his very first act after this incident be to run after and lunge at Gomes. How can there be anything else in his mind but to cause André Gomes injury?

Not the injury he sustained but injury. Whether it’s a minor injury or not, that lunge was only made to cause Gomes injury.

I fail to see how you could come to any other conclusion.

Rob Marsh
259 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:40:42
Ernie Baywood # 228

" If you run after a guy and bring him down, you meant to foul him - let's at least get that bit straight. It's not even in question. "

Ernie, what happens if you run after him wanting to kick the ball and when you put your boot in, he accelerates and you bring him down, did you chase after him to bring him down?

Tony Hill
260 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:40:54
I’d like to echo the views of others. Rob’s post is testimony to what the club means to him. Please hang around, Rob, you and fans like you are the very lifeblood of Everton and of this site.

I’ve been as miserable as most on here and was writing us off last weekend. But we will come again, we truly will.

Don Alexander
261 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:41:18
Haven't read all of the above but have just watched Sunday MOTD (had summat better to do yesterday). Kilbane and Keown, former players of ours no less, totally failed to absolutely state we were denied two clear penalties.

On Gomes, albeit the Beeb deny us the opportunity to see the full coverage, it seems to me ("seems" being the caveat) that Son committed a bog-standard foul which in a nano-second escalated into an injury nobody could have foreseen or prevented. Horrible for Gomes (and his family and friends - my sympathies to them all) and very worrying for us indeed for the remainder of the season (especially as the career-long crocks Mina and Delph also ended the match heavily limping. That said, will all these injuries PLEASE result in team selections that unexpectedly produce victories? Otherwise we really are in the shit by the way).

Also, for the info of those who think I'm excessively critical of Kenwright, I'm contemplating, after today, penning an O.P piece linking him/us to a certain bloke who featured in Bohemian Rhapsody.

Would anyone be interested though? Ha-ha!

John Keating
262 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:41:43
I read on the BBC website the reasoning given to change Son's card from yellow which he was going to be given to red.
Absolute nonsense.
If we stick to their reasoning we will have a contactless sport as any tackle, intentional or not, can have consequences.

Had Gomes not suffered the injury Son would have been given a yellow for a foul, of course it was premeditated, loads of them every game.

The game is being ruined by a bunch of halfwits who haven't got a clue.
Overseen by a bunch of corrupt officials.
From crap referees who also operate a crap VAR system the game is going to ratshit
And it doesn't help when it's full of cheating bastard players diving all over the place, unfortunately one wears our shirt

Daniel A Johnson
263 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:42:27
Don, watch it again mate Kilbane clearly says EFC were denied two penalties.
Steve Ferns
264 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:43:01
Don, Kilbane said we were.
Mark Guglielmo
265 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:43:25
Steve, and now we're back to you needing to relax. Intended to injure him? Man, come on. Have you ever watched Son play football? I'm not defending the nature of the foul, but he literally flicked him. About as much as the Spurs player (can't remember who) that took down Richy on his somewhat breakaway. I believe it was James M above who noted it was a 'perfect storm' of 3 things happening in rapid succession.

Intent to foul? 100%
Intent to injure? My eyes have rolled into the back of my head.

I'd rather you go back to relentlessly defending Silva lol

Brent Stephens
266 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:44:38
Steve, I accept you might well be right. The circumstances appear to be that there was pre-meditation. Not to cause serious injury but that's all that matters, m'lud.
Daniel A Johnson
267 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:44:40
I'm sure Son didn't intend Gomes serious harm but form me his actions had serious consequences.

10 Seconds after he made that Tackle Son realised the harsh reality of what he had done, he set in motion with his very cynical foul something that cant now be undone.

Julian Exshaw
268 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:44:45
Totally agree with those sticking up for Tosun. You cannot fault his attitude and he was top drawer today. He was one of the first to go over and comfort Andre. He's a class act and a much better footballer than he's given credit for. I hope he stays and gets a decent chance with us.
Mark Guglielmo
269 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:47:36
I also realize that because it happened to one of our own, we're all upset and rightfully emotional. But hopefully at the end of the day we're all on the same side and love our Club. Group hug.

COYB

Don Alexander
270 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:48:39
Daniel and Steve, thank you both. I was, what's the word, "hyperventilating" when I typed what I did having watched (but not fully listened to apparently) what was broadcast. Cheers again.
Andy Crooks
271 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:49:09
Steve, this is very unlike you. I think it was a poor challenge made worse by an awkward fall. I do not think it was made to cause injury.I think he intended to commit a foul, but the outcome was no more forseeable than any foul.
Mark Wilson
272 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:49:50
There’s so much to say about this game but actually it comes down to just a few crucial moments.

The disgrace that is VAR went against us not once, but twice, two clear penalties not given because the ref isn’t allowed to go to the touch line and view the same footage the VAR morons are looking at. It helped cost us the game, end of.

When he’s not behaving like a cheat going to ground at every opportunity, Richarlison is a decent player. On another day he’d have had two goals, but this is Everton and somehow it just isn’t happening.

Son’s foul on Gomes was a nasty bit of afters which few have mentioned and because it’s Everton MOTD2 didn’t even mention the earlier incident that angered Son. He was still angry when he brought Gomes down with a reckless, dangerous tackle. He surely couldn’t have imagined what would be the horrible outcome, but I think he was angry and meant to bring Andre down. What followed was appalling and not directly at Auriers door either. It was a terrible result of that Son tackle but the seriousness of the injury was all about bad luck with Gomes catching his studs, his leg stopped and Aurier seemed to smash into it. Happened in front of us. News tonight seems very slightly less horrendous as a broken ankle and dislocation might be horrible to see like that but I’m thinking, is this a better recovery in prospect than the original reports of compound fractures on his ankle and lower leg? Regardless, very good player, very likeable good club man methinks, all the best for a long road ahead.

Oh and the footy ? We are so bad in the final third despite my comments about Richarlisons performance today. I honestly didn’t think we were quite as bad as the comments suggest here and that’s unusual for me!! Mina did well I thought, Holgate ok and improving in the only position he should ever be asked to play. Sidibe keeps Coleman out for me. Davies improving. But overall the thing that matters is we don’t win.

Yet have two absolutely must win games next against Southampton and Norwich before getting tonked by Leicester away.

We have to find a way to win. December is a nightmare. If we can’t beat those two and scrape a couple of draws before the end of December it’s a crazy relegation battle from January and I’m just not sure how that will go

Gamble on two of the kids ? Gordon could be ready. Simms a massive punt but why not for once in a blue moon shouldn’t a punt on a kid work for us? We’ve had such honestly dire luck so far, but wishing for a change in that is just what it is, wishing.

Winning is the only progress.

Brent Stephens
273 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:50:37
But, Steve, this is the absurdity (is it?) in the law? So if I am guilty of a dangerous driving offence and that results in a minor outcome, my penalty will be minor. But if the outcome is more serious, then my penalty will be more serious. Regardless of my actions.

So the penalty fits the outcome not the offence per se?

Liam Reilly
274 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:51:22
I posted at 95 that there was nothing malicious in the challenge, but I've just seen the pictures (which I'll not post) on Marcia.com that clearly shows Sons studs are up in Gomes ankles.
Danny Broderick
275 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:52:18
Steve,

You often make mountains out of molehills, but you can’t be serious in your assumptions that Son was deliberately trying to injure Gomes!!

“ that lunge was only made to cause Gomes injury.”

I’ve thought this before in our exchanges, but have you ever played the game? Has anyone ever kicked you, and you then thought you would kick them back? That’s all this was. Gomes put an arm across his face, so Son thought he’d trip him up. That’s it.

Gomes’ injury is not just down to Son - he got his studs caught, and Aurier also put in a block tackle at the same time. You cannot lay this solely at Son.

He didn’t intend to injure Gomes, he intended to give him a kick I imagine, there is a very big difference between the two.

Ian Jones
276 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:52:26
So...does anyone know the likely recovery time for such an injury...I appreciate there may be many different elements of the injury but are we talking a year out. Assume also, Gomes needs to be helped mentally to regain his confidence. Seem to remember he has had issues before.
Brent Stephens
277 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:53:45
Andy #271 I agree. I think this is the issue with action versus outcome. See my post in #273.
Daniel A Johnson
278 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:54:26
Was the Son tackle Dangerous "No" was it cynical "YES 100%".

It was made to bring him down...…..which it did with unfortunate consequences.

He knew what he had done and the horror that followed was ultimately caused by him.

Andy Crooks
279 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:54:45
Thanks, Ian J, I needed that bit of comfort!!
Daniel A Johnson
280 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:55:41
No worries Don think were all a bit in shock tonight
Danny Broderick
281 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:56:43
Liam (274),

Slow mo’s and pictures can say a million different things. View it in normal time. The foul was cynical, not dangerous, as someone else has just said. He wanted to trip him up, no more.

Steve Ferns
282 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:56:45
Danny, I think he did intend to give him a kick and nothing more. I don’t think that he intend the grave injury that was sustained.

If you intend to cause even the most minor of injuries and that leads to something more serious, then you are guilty of the more serious offence.

This was not Son tracking back and diving in recklessly. He was waiting and he went in to catch Gomes.

I’m not the only one who saw this if you look above.

Steve Barr
283 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:58:05
VAR, as implemented in in football, is a complete failure based on what I've seen of its use and implementation so far.

Football could so easily learn from Rugby, a sport that seems to implement a lot of basic common sense rules; advancing play 10 yards every time a player complains or hassles him, presents the audio in real time for all to hear as their version of VAR reviews an incident etc. etc.

VAR today was tested on a number of occasions, with two potential penalties being reviewed and overturned, one after an interminable review. Neither was given. It also checked on a "professional" foul on Richarlison and gave nowt. He was clearly tripped by the last defender. Son’s red card was then reviewed and the referee was overruled!

Furthermore, it's most infuriating to hear the likes of Pochettino arguing that Son’s dismissal cost his team victory when the one thing that should be paramount on his, and many others minds, is the well being of Gomes. He's the victim, whether intended or not.

A very, very sad day Andre Gomes and I sincerely hope he makes a full recovery.

He'll get fantastic support throughout his rehabilitation, that's for sure.

Danny Broderick
284 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:58:47
But Steve,

He didn’t intend to even give him a minor injury! He just wanted to give him a kick, let him know he was standing up to him after getting an arm in the face previously.

You can give someone a nudge, kick, push etc without wanting to injure them...

Brent Stephens
285 Posted 03/11/2019 at 23:59:48
Steve your comment on#273?
Andy Crooks
286 Posted 03/11/2019 at 00:00:23
Chris @ 203. I think your post is okay, by the way,I think it just caught Rob at a bad time.
Steve Ferns
287 Posted 03/11/2019 at 00:02:16
Danny, I’m best leaving it there. I’m far too angry. I best go watch clips of the ocean and soothing music or something.
Mark Guglielmo
288 Posted 03/11/2019 at 00:02:25
Steve B @283 "VAR, as implemented in in football, is a complete failure based on what I've seen of its use and implementation so far."

Correction: in the EPL, not football. Unless you feel that football is only played in England. For that reason, we're probably aligned in feeling that VAR shouldn't be in the EPL.

Everything else you wrote was spot-on IMO. Just wanted to point that one thing out.

Brent Stephens
289 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:04:13
Danny #284 but that is the absurdity (?) in a road traffic accident. No intent but the severity of the outcome determines the severity of sanction.
Rob Marsh
290 Posted 03/11/2019 at 00:04:23
Rob Halligan # 229

Rob, most of the people on this site want Silva gone, and the league position is now critical, what's so wrong about the Chris Jenkins # 203 post?

We have shocking run of fixtures coming up and could well and truly be anchored to the bottom 3 come the new year, it's not impossible.

Is what Chris Jenkins said so terrible?

Steve Ferns
291 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:06:27
Brent, someone already mentioned the egg-shell skull rule above. If you commit a minor assault and because of a freak condition your victim sustains a horrific injury, then you are prosecuted for a horrific injury. Say you intend a common assault (s39) but he sustains a broken skull, then you would be prosecuted for GBH (s20 assault). 5 years max as opposed to 6 months. You couldn’t face a s18 though, as that requires intent to commit a GBH.

So no, you’d be prosecuted for the major offence in theory. The reality is that the CPS grossly under charge to push conviction rates up and keep costs down, but that’s a different story.

Brent Stephens
292 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:09:15
So you agree with me, Steve in he possibility of sanction. Regardless of the game-playing by CPS.
John McFarlane Snr
293 Posted 03/11/2019 at 00:11:29
Hi all, I have posted before on other threads,that we may go to the same match and see a different game. I found today's game frustrating from my seat in the Park End, and having watched the 'Match Of The Day' highlights I am of the same opinion.

I can't accept the headline of this thread, 'Horrible Game Ends In Horror For Gomes' it's my view that both teams [in patches], played some decent football, and a neutral would have enjoyed it. The trouble [in my opinion], is that we're so concerned by our League position, that any game we fail to win is regarded as 'Horrible'. I also think that we must accept as supporters that we play our part, we must acknowledge that the players don't play poorly on purpose.

It may also be true that I'm not as demanding as some others, I believe that Son meant to foul Gomes, but I don't believe that he meant to hurt him so badly, as some other poster's do. Best wishes. John.

Steve Ferns
294 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:14:12
Your example makes no sense Brent. If you commit dangerous driving then you are dangerous driving.

If you try to seriously injury someone and they break a fingernail, then you would be charged with common assault (s39). However it would be a high level common assault and you could expect to get six months in prison. The court may even waive your credit for an early guilty plea if the offence is that horrific and it was caught on CCTV and so your conviction was deemed inevitable. Whereas if you intended to break a fingernail, then you’d walk away with a fine.

Danny Broderick
295 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:14:47
Brent,

I think some of this is fuelled by the American culture of where there’s blame there’s a claim. Sometimes things just happen. Gomes’ injury can also be traced back to the fella that passed him the ball if you like!

In reality, Son has fouled him. Son intended to trip him up, or give him a kick if you like. The injury happened after that. To lay it at Son’s door is a massive leap.

Things happen sometimes - we can’t always go back to blame someone. Gomes got injured trying to evade his challenge, but football is a contact sport. Fouls are part of the game, and there are sanctions for them.

I’m more angry with Richarlison than Son. With the amount of time he spent on the floor today pretending to be injured, I hope he is proud of himself tonight.

Andy Crooks
296 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:16:13
Rob Marsh, I want Silva gone but I doubt that most people on this site do. I would guess that the admirable Rob Halligan, whom I have been honoured to meet, took the view that on a sad day it was a churlish point to make.
However, I bow to no one in churlishness and I hope that Rob will accept that we are all mad and keep posting.
Steve Ferns
297 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:17:02
Danny, do you think that pre-meditated fouls should be red card?
Kieran Kinsella
298 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:17:15
It’s just depressing all around. There was quite a TW debate this week on Gomes. I was one saying he wasn’t doing enough. Now he’s got a career threatening injury. It must be devastating and I feel terrible for him. Robs post about trying to get banned I can relate to. On one hand there are vicious individuals spewing hate on here. On the other hand we have pompous fans questioning the loyalty of non locals, belittling people for talking tactics because we are all presumably too stupid to have an opinion. It’s all just getting a bit much. Too much frustration and emotion. People losing their heads. Taking offense at honest assessments, then defending the indefensible abusers. I may need to check out of TW and Everton for a while. Get my life priorities straight and perspective
Andy Crooks
299 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:18:13
Steve, tomorrow is another day. This has pissed you off and it's not like you.
Daniel A Johnson
300 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:19:45
Stay the course Kieran...….its been a bad day all round. I'm sat here sipping whiskey just taking it all in.
Mark Guglielmo
301 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:20:01
Kieran not you too! You just need to get better at scrolling & skimming :-)

Anything good, Daniel?

Brent Stephens
302 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:20:12
"Whether it’s a minor injury or not, that lunge was only made to cause Gomes injury".

An assertion and no more.

Danny Broderick
303 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:20:26
People keep using driving examples. But even on the road, sometimes an accident just happens!
E.g. A lorry driver turning might not see a cyclist and will knock him down. That doesn’t mean the lorry driver did anything premeditated or dangerous. It just happened. There is as much onus on cyclists to take evasive action in light of this.


Andrew Keatley
304 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:21:22
Son was petulant - and he has previous (red card v Bournemouth last season). And I do believe he was looking to foul Gomes after their earlier run-in. It was reckless and stupid, but there are 25 fouls like that in every game, and sadly every now and then one of them will result in a serious injury. Everybody is unlucky with the outcome, but Gomes is the one who will have to deal with the real fall-out. Good luck to him; here’s hoping the dislocation and fracture is more easily treated than our worst fears.

Rob (229) - I don’t know if you have a running feud with Chris Jenkins but if not then your attack on him seems a tad disproportionate.

Steve Ferns
305 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:23:17
Andy, I watched every second of the incident from the moment son went to ground. I watched him get up and wait. I watched him lunge into his man. So what if he only wanted to kick him. One of our best players might be out for more than a season, he might never come back. I’m not shrugging my shoulders and saying, “but that’s football”. Had Son, tracked back and made a reckless challenge like it appeared on MOTD, fair enough. But he waited for him. I can’t forgive that. I can’t shrug my shoulders and do a koeman. Sorry.
Daniel A Johnson
306 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:24:23
Danny, I don't want to go over old rope but it wasn't an accidental collision it was a cynical foul (worthy of a yellow) that had devastating consequences, Son knew that by his reaction.
Danny Broderick
307 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:25:05
Hi Steve,

No, I don't think premeditated fouls should automatically be a red card. A good example is Fernandinho of Man City. He seems to make professional fouls every match I see him play. They are premeditated – he deliberately fouls the opposition to stop them counter-attacking. But most are worthy of a yellow card at most.

Of course, he could do one of his professional fouls, and a player could break an ankle trying to evade his challenge. Would this make what is normally a yellow card challenge into a red card? I don't think it should.

Do you?

Brent Stephens
308 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:25:35
Steve, you're confusing an intent to foul with an intent to injure. NOT the same.
Danny Broderick
309 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:26:30
Daniel (306),

I agree entirely!

Steve Ferns
310 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:27:08
Sorry, Danny. I expressed myself poorly. I meant vengeful premeditated fouls. Where someone lunges in to get their revenge.
Christy Ring
311 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:28:48
You can say what you like about Son's challenge, but the bottom line, he never went for the ball, so how can you defend him?
Brent Stephens
312 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:29:06
Now we're getting there.
Steve Ferns
313 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:29:58
Brent, I believe there was an intent to injure. He wanted to give him a good old kick and send him to the grass in pain. No doubt, no thoughts of serious injury were in his mind, but that does not matter.

He didn't wait for him to give him a gentle tap. He didn't lunge to give him a gentle tap. It was a lunge full of vengeance and intent to cause injury, no matter how minor.

Brent Stephens
314 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:30:14
"Where someone lunges in to get their revenge".

Conjecture again.

Steve Ferns
315 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:31:43
Of course it's conjecture, Brent. All we have is what we saw. You can't get more than conjecture though, can you?
Daniel A Johnson
316 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:32:32
Christy I don't think anyone is defending him, the foul was deliberate & cynical but not dangerous.

Our very own players have brought players down in a cynical fashion to stop them countering and got yellow carded for it.

These tackles happen all the time – it was just bad luck that this one set in motion something that had serious consequences for poor Gomes.

Brent Stephens
317 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:32:34
Steve, there might just as equally been an intent to foul but not to injure. Conjecture on your part about intent to injure. Evidence?
Danny Broderick
318 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:33:50
No worries Steve,

Again, you have to judge the challenges on merit (terrible choice of word but I can’t think of a better one!)

I do still think there can be revenge tackles that are only worthy of a yellow, and revenge tackles that are worthy of a red. There is a difference between a two-footed lunge and a shove, for example. You can go in strong on someone as a result of receiving a strong challenge previously. The amount of force used would have to be taken into consideration. But I don’t think all revenge challenges are worthy of a red...

Brent Stephens
319 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:34:10
"Of course it's conjecture, Brent. All we have is what we saw. You can't get more than conjecture though, can you?"

Exactly.

Steve Ferns
320 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:34:40
Brent, why wait to give him a tap? He waited for reason. He lunged at him. That tells me everything I need to know. Say 'conjecture' all you want but you only have conjecture to say that this is not the case.
Andrew Keatley
321 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:35:09
Steve (305) - But that IS football. Yes, it is distressing what happened to Gomes. And yes, Son was looking to foul Gomes. But he didn't go in studs-up at knee heights –- he clipped him, and it started a horrible sequence of events.

I would be behind you if it was a case of pre-meditated malice to injure, like Keane on Haaland, but this was very far away from that.

Bill Watson
322 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:35:16
Son's foul was premeditated and a cynical attempt at revenge for the incident a few minutes before. Son was wound up and meant to hurt Gomes in some way, otherwise why do it?

I'm sure he didn't intend the lunge to result in a break but, nevertheless, it should have been a straight red.

Steve Ferns
323 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:38:33
Andrew, this isn't Keane on Haarland. It doesn't change the fact that he waited out of position to get to Gomes and the first thing he did was lunge in on him. He should have received a red card. It should not be rescinded.

And he should serve the longest ban he can. I think it's 3 games for a dangerous foul. He should not get away with 2 games or less.

Danny Broderick
324 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:39:12
Bill,

I don't think Son meant to hurt him. He wanted to foul him back, if you like, having had an arm in his face from Gomes just before. But that doesn't mean he wanted to hurt him.

Players often respond back in kind if they are on the receiving end of a poor challenge. It doesn't mean they are trying to hurt the other player. It's more to come out on top, to win your battles.

Mark Guglielmo
325 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:39:16
Andrew @304, not sure I'd call Son petulant, though he sure was today in that instance. He has 4 yellows & 2 reds in 8,300 minutes of Premier League football just for perspective.
Brent Stephens
326 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:39:47
"Where someone lunges in to get their revenge".

Conjecture. For you to demonstrate if you make the assertion "to get their revenge"!

Steve Barr
327 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:41:30
Mark @#288.

I'm afraid I'm pretty limited as far as my world of football is concerned, in that my viewing focuses mainly on the English leagues. Mainly on Everton and a little on Scun thorpe United! I haven't really seen its use and implementation in any other league.

Judging by your comment I assume it's much better elsewhere, like Rugby, than in the Premier League?

BTW, where are you based? Hadn't seen your name/posts until recently. You make some very good points.

Mark Guglielmo
328 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:42:38
Steve @323 "And he should serve the longest ban he can." Further proof you should have gone to listen to soothing music, like you planned.

Maybe we should just take him out back and shoot him?

He got a red, I don't even know what you're debating here. He'll get his 2-game suspension like a straight red earns. What am I missing?

Jay Harris
329 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:43:04
I haven't really posted till now As I was so sick after the game.

Sick about yet another serious injury.

Sick of this VAR nonesense.

Sick of bad refereeing which we always seem to get the bad end of.

Sick that the management and staff can continue with this bullshit excuse for an Everton team.

Sick that we can't even beat a weakened side who haven't won an away game since last January.

Sick that we are so divided as Evertonians.

Sick of feeling Sick every fucking weekend.

Sick that a doctor can't cure this sickness.

Brent Stephens
330 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:43:23
Steve #327 - Mark is the man to watch!
Steve Ferns
331 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:44:56
Mark, people are saying it was a yellow. It’s not a yellow. It’s a straight red.
Rob Halligan
332 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:47:08
I apologise to Chris Jenkins @ post 203. His was the first post that caught my eye, with him saying "another two points lost" and " Silva must go". It just seemed to me that he was implying that it was Silva's fault that we didn't win today, when, quite clearly, it was anything but. However, I stand by everything else I said.
Mark Guglielmo
333 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:49:37
Steve @288 if you promise not to hold it against me, I'm from just outside of New York City, and I'm quite new to TW. If I understood even 1% of rugby I'd let you know haha.

I watch a good amount of Bundesliga (VAR introduced in 2017-18), and La Liga (in 2018-19), so it's still very new to the sport, but they use it properly.

Thank you for the compliment! One day I'll understand rugby...

Andrew Keatley
334 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:50:09
Mark G (325) - You do take issue with the strangest things. I said Son was petulant (he was), and that he has previous (he has).

I didn't say anything more - you've just inferred your own narrative. There are enough actual points of interest on here to discuss without you inventing new ones.

Mark Guglielmo
335 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:52:43
Sorry, Andrew, no harm intended. I wasn't sure and just thought it may be helpful info. Mea culpa.

Steve F, Oh, I didn't know that was a position anyone took. I thought it was a straight red too.

Derek Thomas
336 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:52:53
Lets discuss the first hours play because all that followed is from a different game.

For that hour, Spurs were in your basic KITAP1 mode – happy with a draw and if they nick one all well and good... but they weren't going to bust a gut doing it. Do they have a Champions League game in the week? I don't know, not really following that stuff.

Everton seemed happy for a draw as well, but didn't, apart from the obligatory being at home... 'Well I suppose we'll have to have a bit of a go' attitude, really want to bust a gut in case they got caught on the break.

Paying Spurs too much respect?

The fear in the back of both managers minds made for a very dull half paced game?

It took an under-hit directionless howler from Iwobi to change the game... nobody on the field was going to set up anybody other than by accident... I exclude Davies from this, he always looked to play the ball forward to good effect – but then nobody up front did much with the little he supplied.

Where does that leave Everton? 17th and glad there are three teams worse at the moment... if only marginally worse.

If the powers that be are still in 'make your mind up, Mavis' mode, then maybe Silva can point to extenuating circumstances, citing everything that happened after 63 mins... ignoring the previous poor preseason build plus the last ten games and one hour. Make a mystical gesture with his fingers while saying... 'This isn't the manager you want to sack, he can go about his business.'

That and the lack of an obvious replacement must be all that's keeping him in a job.

Steve Ferns
337 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:55:38
Rob, I didn't think we were at our best today. But this was a good side we played. Champions League finalists just 6 months ago. They were only missing Kane of any real significance. Their other main players were all there.

We restricted them to two chances. We gifted them one of them. We didn't get going really. I hoped the first half would set up the second and we could go up a gear.

I think I posted at half time that I thought Gomes needed to do a little more and I thought he would. I thought Kean would come on revved up and score his first late in the game. Of course that didn't happen.

We had more than enough chances to win it. We had two decisions go against us on VAR. We did enough to win that game. So I agree with your points.

But I am still disappointed that we couldn't find that extra gear. I'm also disappointed that Walcott and Iwobi were so wide. I wanted them further forward and more central. I suspect that Spurs forced them back rather than us playing them there by design. They couldn't just abandon Aurier and Davies.

There's a lot to be disappointed about. But I'm still in a bit a of shock over Gomes. I'm also very upset over yet another three points going begging. And I'm wondering why this season has turned into a nightmare that never ends.

I suppose I should do a Koeman, but how can you when it's Everton?

Brent Stephens
338 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:56:55
The ref showed a yellow first. Then he showed a red.
Andrew Keatley
339 Posted 04/11/2019 at 01:03:26
Mark G (335) - No harm done.

Steve (337) - Imagine all that upset you feel. And then add in on top of that the sincere and ever-growing belief that Marco Silva is destined to fail as our manager, and yet here he still is. That's how I feel.

John Pierce
340 Posted 04/11/2019 at 01:04:27
So I managed to avoid the game, had my own to get through and have just gotten through the whole sorry thing.

Son – red card all day long, making zero attempt to play the ball is reckless. I've mentioned Schniederlin twice this season, Bournemouth (he missed his target) and Man City, he felled De Bruyne in the same way, should have been red too. The game has long allowed this cynical vile tackle to persist in the game. Referees should have more courage, players' behaviour would change.

The selection seemed good, sadly the two wide forwards didn't play high, often to looked more 4-5-1. We pressed often but never really managed to get them to cough it up.

Both teams were poor, although a glimpse or two of some well played moves from ourselves. Still very little to look at big picture style, and go, yeah I can see where we are going.

What is scary is the lack of attacking patterns we have, unrehearsed and lack of practiced moves. We just appear to rely on off-the-cuff moves, individuals pulling rabbits from hats etc.

Let's pull no punches it's a mess. Three midfielders layed up injured, time for 4-2-4!!

Steve Barr
341 Posted 04/11/2019 at 01:06:37
Mark@#333,

You're not too far from me then. I live in Fairfax just outside DC (District of Champions)! Took a wrong turn driving down to London and ended up here 20 years ago!

My son just got a job in New York so I expect to be making regular trips next year. Maybe catch a couple of Everton games if you are in town.

I've been following Rugby for years and still don't understand many of the calls, so don't worry.

Lester Yip
342 Posted 04/11/2019 at 01:11:37
What have we done wrong? Why are we so cursed? Do we still have Niasse? Or maybe Tosun is the new Niasse who will bring us some luck?

Sorry, I am too upset with another leg break.

David Pearl
343 Posted 04/11/2019 at 01:12:19
Steve,

Yes agree Walcott and Iwobi were way too wide. When spurs had the ball we retreated as a team to flat 4-1-4-1. When we did have the ball they looked to go 4-3-3 but the transition was never quick enough.

I'd of also taken Iwobi off before Walcott as he looked the brighter of the two. Wait and see time as to what and how we play next time.

Mark Guglielmo
344 Posted 04/11/2019 at 01:13:39
I know your area well, Steve @341! Covered it for a great many years in multiple sales jobs and always stayed at the Westin in Reston. Really nice area but too close to the orange goblin in the White House for me these days lol.

I'd love to watch a game with you! I pretty much watch 'em all solo so just say the word when you're up this way. Cheers.

John Pierce
345 Posted 04/11/2019 at 01:22:09
Steve, l'm working backwards through the thread. I cannot believe you appear in the minority here, like you I completely agree – it's red.

As a player, when you conduct your body in a manner which is reckless, without any attempt to win the ball (not even in the same zip code) – it's red.

You correctly describe it as a lunge, off the ground no control over his body and momentum, therefore reckless.

Even if Gomes isn't seriously injured, it's still red, the fact Atkinson cannot, with a clear line of sight, see that is unacceptable.

Heady stuff, this thread!!!

David Pearl
346 Posted 04/11/2019 at 01:29:36
Carragher said something along the lines of the next step in protecting the players will be a red card for a player making a tackle or lunge when he knows he has no chance to get the ball. How many times have we seen that over the years?

If Gomes gets tripped and isn't injured we would of all accepted the yellow as it's in the law of the game. If the law changes, we will know it's a red. As it stands it was deemed a red because of the result of the challenge.

I feel sorry for Son also but proud of our players for going into the Spurs dressing room and them all coming together. That's what we want to see. And 3 points next week of course

Bill Gall
347 Posted 04/11/2019 at 01:36:52
We all as supporters wish AndréGomes all the best with a speedy recovery. What we should be talking about is what happened from the kick-off and what happened after the injury when Everton played against 10 men.

The verdict was not very good, at times it seemed Tottenham were the home team while Everton players were playing scared to loose and that made mistakes. This was not a good result, teams will not get many chances to beat Tottenham but today was a good opportunity as they were struggling but, Everton once again were in a benevolent mood and presented them with the chance to get back on track.

Goodison Park was once considered a fortress, but now it seems like any other ground with the walls collapsed allowing the attackers in.

I may be wrong but weren't the 2 previous managers fired with a better position in the league?

David Pearl
348 Posted 04/11/2019 at 02:00:20
Yes Bill, and with Allardyce we got 8th with Cuco and Ashley in defence...

Anyway, goodnight all.

Joe Corgan
349 Posted 04/11/2019 at 02:05:23
In general, for an ordinary 20-something male, a fracture-dislocation of the ankle takes about six weeks to heal. Gomes had immediate treatment (which really helps, as the blood-flow to the foot will have been affected) and he's in good physical shape.

What I don't know is how long it takes to go from “healed” to “ready-to-play-football.”

If he's very lucky, I'd guess we could see Gomes again before the end of February. Unfortunately there's always the chance of complications and every injury is different.

Hopefully the club's professional medical staff will give us some positive news in the next few days.

Ernie Baywood
350 Posted 04/11/2019 at 02:09:49
Rob Marsh #229 – well that would be a completely different case to the one I was talking about. Let's stay in context – bit petty otherwise.
Nicholas Ryan
351 Posted 04/11/2019 at 02:34:13
People might want to check the internet, for the video of Spurs v Bournemouth at the end of last season; Why? It shows Son, receiving a straight red for violent conduct. It was a petulant act of 'revenge' rather like the one today. I'm not saying he's a 'dirty' player but perhaps he would benefit from a bit of anger management.
Kieran Kinsella
352 Posted 04/11/2019 at 02:40:08
Joe,

I just read some medical articles and they say 3 months but it depends on the sport. A golfer was back in the PGA sooner but obviously football is more taxing on the ankles. Wasn't Yakubu out for 9 months when he did his ankle before the cup final?

Jay Harris
353 Posted 04/11/2019 at 02:53:45
Kieran,

It depends on the severity of the break.

Allegedly it was a compound fracture and pretty horrific which could mean the end of his career.

I doubt he will be back before Easter if at all based on the feedback of some guys who were just by the incident.

It is a real sickener on top of everything else.

Rob Marsh
354 Posted 04/11/2019 at 02:53:55
Ernie # 350

Many of these challenges that bring someone down are entirely subjective, you could argue intent or non-intent equally.

I believe I am within context, even the Son challenge wasn't ugly (a tap on the foot?), what happened a few steps later when Gomes accidentally dug his studs in was though.

There's very rarely black and white with these things.

Mark Guglielmo
355 Posted 04/11/2019 at 03:20:25
I actually made the mistake of watching it one more time, in real time. The entire sequence of Son's foul -> Andre's spikes getting caught -> Aurier coming in took a few seconds at most. The longest piece of it was Gomes stumbling; he took 2 full steps before planting, breaking. Aurier had arguably less than a split-second before he was about to make impact. Momentum played a giant role all around.

Ever walk down the street and have someone stop right in front of you? You walk right into them.

Was it a foul on Son? Yes
Was it a booking? Yes
Was it a red booking? Probably
Is Son being punished? Yes, with a 2-game suspension
Was the foul deliberate? Yes
Was it both reckless & dangerous? Yes
Was it designed to injure Gomes? FFS
Was it a horrible freak outcome from a fairly common play? For sure
Does Son feel horrible? 100%
Is Seamus a jerk for caring? No, he's a human who understands empathy

Watching a dozen angles in slow-mo doesn't change anything. The play took maybe 3 seconds. Pretty sure I've kicked someone's foot into their leg and they took a good tumble with a face full of grass. I'm also pretty sure I've seen fouls like that many times over, and the outcome was no worse than what I did.

I'm also sure I never want to see it again. Almost threw up and knowing it was coming was even worse. *Shudder*

Ernie Baywood
356 Posted 04/11/2019 at 03:58:34
Rob, I was talking about the context my comment was in. From the point raised earlier by someone. I forget who.

I dispute that it wasn't ugly.

If that happened in the amateurs, it would start trouble. If someone went for your mate you'd be straight over. It wasn't a 'professional' foul to stop the attack, wasn't just mistimed, wasn't even reckless.

He did exactly what he intended to do, which was to take Gomes out. What happened afterwards is a freakish outcome, but an outcome of a deliberate act nonetheless.

John Pierce
357 Posted 04/11/2019 at 04:15:07
Guys - it's very black and white, he endangered the safety of another player. He was reckless - red.

If you believe this type or style of tackle, regardless of intent (which you cannot divine - only Son knows) is acceptable at all, well pfft! Times have moved we'll beyond it.

Look at the actions, and the moving parts of the ‘tackle' such as it is. It's from behind, he is not playing the ball, he leaves the ground (unable to control his momentum) and he catches Gomes on or above the ankle. There is no ‘tap' involved.

If that tackle had been towards a player, you'd have no hesitation in supporting a red card, there is no difference from behind.

I'm still struggling with the fact Atkinson only felt it was a yellow, he either got a flea in his ear or saw the injury, neither which should have had any bearing on the call. In real time, it was a sending off.

Truly incensed by this!!

Pat Finegan
358 Posted 04/11/2019 at 04:43:51
Forgive me if I'm repeating anyone else, but I think I probably have a unique take on VAR as someone who works in and closely follows American sports.

I'm a public announcer for college sports, so communicating with fans is, without any exaggeration or misrepresentation, what I do for a living. From my perspective, communication seems to be one of the things that is sorely lacking in the VAR system. If I don't do my job well (speaking from experience; everyone starts somewhere) people get confused and the mood can turn sour. The public announcer in football [British use of the word] doesn't do much, but imagine the confusion if he just said "Everton are making some subs or something" and left it at that. That's basically equivalent to what VAR is doing. (No, I haven't done my job that poorly. I did accidentally leave the letter "t" out of the word "peanuts" on a bitterly cold day one time and may have led some fans to believe that the concessions stand was selling penis.)

Giving the refs microphones to communicate with the fans is the theoretical ideal. I'll explain that shortly, but I think the more pertinent comparisons are with sports where refs don't have mics. There are two sports that I follow and work in professionally, in which the refs don't verbally communicate directly with the fans. In baseball, everything is cut and dry enough that additional communication isn't really necessary. If football could cut down on which calls are reviewed, it might be possible to just leave VAR as it is, but that pretty much just limits it to offside reviews.

In basketball, when the review process is initiated, the ref will come over to me and give a clear explanation of what is being reviewed. I tell the fans what's being reviewed and that gets relayed to the TV audience. The refs all take a look at the monitor and make their decision. Once the decision is made, one of them comes to me to give me an explanation, which I relay to the fans verbally as the referee makes the relevant hand signal(s).

While I'm announcing the call, and briefly afterward, the coaches have the opportunity to speak to the refs about the decision. There's no reason the Premier League cant have the exact same system. It's not perfect, but it's not a disaster either.

The NFL and NHL do a particularly good job of communicating the decisions directly to the fans, even if the calls themselves are questionable. In both of those sports, the head referee has a public address microphone. They make a decision in the moment based on how they see it, then they can go to the replay to check the decision.

Once a final decision has been made, they can communicate the decision directly to the fans. Any time the reasoning for a decision is unclear, the refs are free to elaborate. I.e. (in NFL) "After review, the call on the field is overturned. The ball carrier's knee was down prior to the ball crossing the goal line. The ball will be placed at the one-yard line."

For complex decisions, you need to explain yourself. You can't just put the decision on a big screen and leave it at that. It's lazy and takes away from the game. Giving refs mics isn't the only option. It may not be necessary at all, but it makes enough sense that it should be considered.

While I speak with less authority on the topic of consistency of calls, something can certainly be said for the idea of having a call ruled one way on the field, then reviewed after the fact. There are three possible outcomes to video reviews in the sports I've listed above: 1) There is enough video evidence to overturn the call. 2) There is enough video evidence to confirm that the call was correct. 3) There is not enough video evidence to overturn the call or to confirm it, so the call stands. Simply sending the decision to VAR leads to severe inconsistency and takes way more time than it needs to. You can check a decision that's already been made to see if there is concrete evidence to overturn it faster than you can do a full analysis of a play and make a decision.

There is value to seeing something in real time at full speed. The Michael Keane penalty decision last week is a perfect example. In real time, it's obviously not a penalty. When you slow it down and really look at it, that opens the door for pedantic technicalities to come in to play. If the ref and VAR official had worked together to make the call, no penalty would have been awarded. In the NFL, the ref is able to communicate and watch the play back with the replay crew and explain their reasoning. As an example of what that should look like, watch the video linked below from ~25:00 until ~27:00. (You can watch the rest of the video, too, if you like. Best day of my life. Fell off the roof of a bus stop in downtown Philadelphia and sprained my ankle after that game. It was a wild one, but I digress...) There's no reason the system in the video can't be implemented in the Premier League. There is no reason that the decision should be made unilaterally by one individual who didn't watch it up close in real time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hpv3jqmYRjk

Lastly, I'd like to point out that reviewing whether something was a foul is usually a bad idea. The NFL has tried that experiment with pass interference this year and it's gone horribly. Reviews of violent conduct penalties haven't been quite as bad, but there's still significant inconsistency. If you can't establish clear evidence to overturn a call, you shouldn't be reviewing it in the first place. Non-falsifiable claims need to be accepted as subjective analyses and valued as such.

TL;DR: communication is the issue that's most obvious to me, but I'm predisposed to notice that based on my professional experience. Consistency would improve if the ref could communicate directly with the VAR official while the VAR official is watching the play. Consistency and speed of review would also improve if a clear call was made on the field and that call was subjected to scrutiny, instead of the referee simply deferring to VAR.

I'd also like to note for any NFL fans that I am aware of the catch rule fiasco and, as noted, the pass interference fiasco. I cite the NFL as my primary example because consistency of officiating, while still imperfect, is clearly better than it was 20 years ago, before the current replay system went into effect.

Ed Prytherch
359 Posted 04/11/2019 at 04:58:13
Son's challenge was reckless. Like driving like a nut and killing someone. It is not first-degree murder. In the States, it is reckless homicide and I expect there is a similar charge in Britain – manslaughter?
Jim Harrison
360 Posted 04/11/2019 at 05:12:46
I am with Gordon 55 and Steve 221 (and subsequent posts)

Son has gone after Gomes in retribution for what he perceived to be an elbow to the face. Does he intend to give him a career threatening injury? Probably not. But is he actually making a serious play for the ball? Exceedingly dubious that call.

It's not the actual kick that causes the injury, but it is the cause of the fall. It was irresponsible and reckless. Had Gomes ridden out the challenge, it would have been a yellow, but he didn't. The referees' organisation have confirmed that the severity of the injury came into the decision process.

VAR? Sweet bleeding eyeballs. What a shit-show.

Son, if it's not a penalty, he has dived, right?

Richarlison, clearly taken out. Can't use calling wolf as an excuse for not giving, VAR refs get to review the actual incident. It's a foul, it's in the area. Penalty. They can't say "Oh, well he has been going down too easily before so we won't give him this one, serves him right."

Sanchez on Richarlison late on. It has to be a foul right? But if they give a foul they have to issue a red because of the circumstances.

So, now we have refs on the pitch and in a control room bottling it.

Darren Hind
364 Posted 04/11/2019 at 06:37:48
Moments earlier Gomes caught Son in the face with a flailing elbow. Footage showed this to be accidental. but the red mist had definitely descended. Its clear and its etched all over his face ("conjecture" ? bollocks).

I would imagine that most posters have played the game competitively at some level and will know that Song had no real chance of winning that ball. He knew it too. He clearly tries to bring Gomes down.

Everyday we see people speed up when Traffic lights turn amber and by the time they go trough the lights are red. 99% get away with it, a few are not so fortunate and their actions have catastrophic consequences.

Son ran a red light. People can argue that he was unfortunate and didnt mean to cause the break, but be of no doubt. Thats exactly what he did.

No reckless challenge, no terrible injury.

Iain Latchford
365 Posted 04/11/2019 at 08:01:55
If I was Silva I'd be trying to find a way to get DCL and Tosun into the starting line up. We need to score more goals and they look the far most likely the score them.
Brian Williams
366 Posted 04/11/2019 at 08:11:12
Darren#364.
Perfectly summed up mate!
Tony Abrahams
367 Posted 04/11/2019 at 08:32:23
Deli Ali, said you won’t meet a nicer man than Son, which just shows how fucked-up football has become. The foul was a little bit more sly than cynical, but the dive when Mina fell into him was a disgrace, and the fact that 99.9% of footballers would have done the same thing shows how low football has really sunk.

“FOOTBALL = A SPORT WITHOUT SPORTSMANSHIP + A GAME FULL OF BRINKSMANSHIP” a sport were cheating has become so accepted that it’s now part of the fabric.

Brian Porter
368 Posted 04/11/2019 at 08:46:02
Bill Gall #347, I totally agree with you. The injury to Gomes has (understandably) overshadowed what went on before and after the incident.
Silva had his set up all wrong as usual and for me, this was perfectly illustrated by a comment from my wife. She is not a football fan, (understandable as her son is a hooker for Scarborough RUFC) but she did watch a bit of the game with me before terminal boredom drove her from the room, but not before she said, "I thought they were supposed to try and score goals. It looks like all they're doing is trying to stop the other team scoring but nobody is trying to score for your team."

I found it difficult to try to explain to ber that Silva, had, in my opinion, set the team up to try and nick a draw. He was basically afraid of Tottenham and he was too cautious in his approach

I expected to see a performance on a par with the West Ham game, especially after seeing Brighton tear Spurs apart the other week

We are going nowhere with Silva, except possibly down to the championship. We're basically a third of the way through the season and we're one place above the drop zone. Would any other team be happy with this situation? Of course not, but Silva, who should have been dumped after the Burnley game is still clinging on to the job.
As you said Bill, our previous two managers were dismissed with the team in much better positions than we now find ourselves in.

Why doesn't Moshiri wake up to the reality of our situation? We are seriously in danger of relegation under Silva's inept leadership and it's time he was cut loose to go and ruin someone else's club.

Paul A Smith
369 Posted 04/11/2019 at 08:48:21
How can anyone moan that fans "do nothing but put the club down" (which isn't true anyway) while the managers all get riduiculed for absolute anything and the board strip their squads.

Its unbelievable how much we let the board get away with while all energies are spent punishing everything our managers do.

What is the point of coming on here just to be soppy and pretend no mistakes have been made above the manager? Mug behaviour and I am willing to hear anyones opinion but ignorance gets us nowhere.

Also learned from the Delli Ali handball that all those years ago, Peter Shilton was putting Maradonna under pressure, so 40 years of inquest over.


Steve Brown
370 Posted 04/11/2019 at 08:57:59
It is ridiculous to come out of that game and blame Silva. We suffered the awful injury to Gomes, two VAR decisions that denied us penalties and were faced with a Spurs team determined to defend.

The defence of Son's intent is frankly pathetic. He was caught in the face by Gomes and tracked him deliberately to get his own back. Did he plan to break his leg? Of course not. Did he plan to do him some harm? Definitely. Anyone who has played football at any level knew straight away what had gone on. Sure he was distraught when he saw the consequences of his desire for retribution. So he should be.

VAR has absolutely failed in its application in the Premier League. For penalties, there has to be "a 'clear and obvious error' in the original decision. For goals, it can adjudge on a close offside decision, but shirt-pulling and other infringements can considered. VAR referees have shown they are extremely reluctant to reverse ANY decision of the on-field referee (unless of course Everton are playing). Equally, because the on-field referees have been told to avoid using the sideline cameras as it slows the game down, no-one is properly examining contentious decisions at all. Proof of the failure is the length of time it takes to review decisions, the number of times it is checked and the almost zero likelihood a decision will be changed. It might as well only be used for offside decisions and leave the final decision to the on-field referee. Rugby has it right overall - the TMO can raise issues missed by the referee, give advice of potential errors in calls but ultimately the refereeing team on the pitch make the final call.

Of course Everton have been on the wrong end of VAR decisions (the Keane 'penalty'), as we were with the other rule enforcements (the Niasse 'dive'). It is unfortunate for us that we are seen as a big enough club where we can used as an "example", but not big enough that a controversial decision will alter the course of the league or a cup. Those decisions would never be given against the Sky 6 as a result, but we are fair game.

Silva had his tactics just about right yesterday. He expected Spurs to counter-attack at pace as they did last season at Goodison - the result was 2-6 in case anyone has forgotten. His intent was manage the game and progressively take the the match to Spurs. And it would have worked if we had been given the decisions on two clear penalties. So let's blame him when he deserves it as I have done this season, but to leap on here to rant after what happened yesterday makes little sense based on what happened in the match.

Andrew Hight
371 Posted 04/11/2019 at 09:13:11
It’s not ridiculous to blame Silva. He picks unbalanced sides, persists with poor formations and doesn’t have any tactical awareness to change it during game time.
Paul Smith
372 Posted 04/11/2019 at 09:15:19
How can we not blame Silva look at the table this morning its frightening. Relegation is a real and present danger yesterday was poor again.

Nothing through the middle except Richies shot in the first half maybe.

It all went left and right to the wings, the deliveries were awful, case in point seconds left and Sidibe decides to cut back and not cross, shocking!.

First half the ball to Spurs left wing was on all the time Walcott was no match for their height and Sidibe was out of position.

Tok many errors and Gomes had just started to play when Son sought retribution for the elbow, other than that he was quiet all game. Make no mistake Saints game is make or break for both teams ir we lose and he's still here (along with Ferguson) then fuck it.

Derek Thomas
373 Posted 04/11/2019 at 09:18:36
Steve @ 370; Silva had his tactics spot on, well yes he did if his plan was to sit off a shaky Spurs and play out...for the first 63 mins. a half paced safety first don't get either manager sacked draw.
Robert Williams
374 Posted 04/11/2019 at 09:29:46
Well well well, as if we didn't already know that Mr Ferns was a lawyer!!

It now appears that he is taking on a new role.

No longer able to convince the jury with his case for the defence of Mr Silva he now seems to have given up his brief to get his client Silva a reprieve, instead, he now appears for the prosecution.

Having gathered all the evidence available, from TV, from witnesses to the crime he has now made up his mind and claims that he can bring a successful prosecution against the defendant, one Mr Son.

The Judge, in this case, the Right Twat Martin Atkinson will undoubtedly call for VAR as a witness and will deliver the maximum penalty that the prosecutor Ferns hopes to deliver to enhance his reputation as the 'hottest lawyer in town'

I rest my case.

Fran Mitchell
375 Posted 04/11/2019 at 09:33:52
We beat Watford mid-week, but it was a poor game against a team at the foot of the table. We drew yestersday at Spurs, but we were woeful against a team out of form and there for the taking.

We have been awful this season, absolutely no two ways about it, we have now 2 must win games at fellow strugglers Southampton and Norwich. We then have a nightmare run in December that could send us into the a very serious, and very real relegation battle.

Do we keep hoping Silva 'turns it around'? Do we risk getting absolutely wholloped by our title challenging neighbours? Then again against Chelsea and Leicester - two clubs showing how progressive managers and exciting attacking young teams can perform - then again against City on Jan 1st? The out of form Utd and Arsenal will probably be looking at the December fixtures and see the Everton game as very 'winnable' chances to turn their fortunes.

Yesterday's game was woeful - Iwobi out wide simply hasn't worked since he arrived, he looks decent (not great, but decent) in the middle, but out wide he is ineffective - so the decision to play him there was baffling. Walcott is Walcott, always is, always will be. Does some things quite well, makes good runs and has good movement - but he is a 6/10 player. A forward who will likely not get near the penalty area, and when he does will rarely threaten the goal. And Richarlison as a centre forward, at least in this set up, is an isolated figure. He is dangerous with the ball at his feet and the ability to cut inside and run forwards, not when he has his back to goal and is trying a win the ball from scraps.

A seriously woeful selection for a front 3, and the outcome was absolutely as expected. Time for change, both in the management, and in the players.

Time to promote Gordon and play him wide right. Just maybe he could inject some positivity and exhuberance this team desperately needs. Other clubs have promoted 18/19 year olds to great benefit over the last couple of seasons, time we do it ourselves.

Time to play Kean as centre forward, give him 2 games against Norwich and Southampton, he should get space and chances against porous defences to break his duck and gain confidence, then enter December ready to shock the big teams. Rich-Kean-Gordon - this needs to be our attack.

Midfield is our biggest weakness, especially now Gomes joins G'Bamin on the sidelines for the long term. Delph Davies and yes, bring up another youngster - Adeniran. 2 young players with energy, with Delph being the mentor. No 'playing it safe' and playing Schneiderlin. That is asking for relegation.

Silva will never do this, so we need a change of manager now, and tell them - you won'y get money in January, use the youth.

Gary Willock
376 Posted 04/11/2019 at 09:40:54
The fact Silva was still there after the international break suggested a board that is judging the person and not the performance.

He’s spent a FORTUNE, and we are staring relegation in the face. The fact that some cling to “there’ll be 3 worse than us” is truly embarrassing.

The fact he appears to be still here this morning suggests absolute and complete ineptitude. Granted, he’s playing ‘lip service’ to team changes, but it’s the same old turgid crap he’s serving up.

He needs to go NOW. Use Unsy as a caretaker for Southampton and Norwich, hopefully he can pick up a few points to take the immediate pressure off any successor. If not, we are NO worse off than we will be under Silva.

We are now in ‘nothing more to lose’ it’s time to roll the dice because without a bet, we are going down under this ‘nice man’.

Dave Williams
377 Posted 04/11/2019 at 09:43:58
Darren #364 sums the tackle up perfectly. Had Son not lunged at Gomes the injury would not have happened. He had no chance of getting the ball and as a professional he would have been aware of that. As Steve says he was looking for a bit of revenge for being caught in the face by Andre. I have no doubt that he didn’t mean to hurt him like that but quite simply he launched into a tackle intended to take the man rather than the ball ( which was too far away) and the red was justified.
Ed Smith
378 Posted 04/11/2019 at 09:44:24
It would be interesting to see a heat map of Sons positioning throughout the game, what was he doing there? Where he made that challenge from isn't his natural position and it did seem that he was lurking around Gomes after the last challenge where he got the forearm to his face. Such a "nice guy" will never be asked to account for that though!

Richarlson should have realised after his first three dives he was going to get nothing from Atkinson and waited for the obvious one for the penalty. He obviously hasn't been told to stop doing this from the manager.

For the handball, by the current laws it was a penalty, no matter how aggrieved we would have been if it was happening to us. Those handball decisions have been given all season. It seemed to me that the more the VAR delayed making the call (as they obviously didn't want to give it to us) then the more they could hide behind the reasonable doubt defence. It was handball and his assertion that he was raising his arm after an elbow is bollocks as in real time nobody reacts that fast.

Silva should have gone weeks ago, he's useless.

Steve Ferns
379 Posted 04/11/2019 at 09:44:39
Having seen the goal again, anyone notice Calvert-Lewin? I initially thought it was he who scored from my spec down the other end as it looked like the number nine connected with a header.

Replays show he was heading Tosun as he headed the ball! Don’t know whether to be pleased that he was there to score it if Tosun failed or upset that he could have caused Tosun to fluff his header! We scored so it was alright in the end.

Paul A Smith
380 Posted 04/11/2019 at 09:44:49
Yesterdays game was 2 nervous sides scared to lose. Both cautious but we were the more likely all the way through.

Did Pickford make one save?
Did the game deny us 2 clear penalties?
Did we lose a major player in terrible circumstances?
Did we concede to a goal we created?

Have a day off with your manager shit. Any reason to have a go. Last week said it all when he picked the side you wanted then you all still moaned.

The majority of the moaning is pre concieved shite you decided ages ago about Silva and Brands so now you can't be wrong.
Keep fueling your points with anything you can but the fact the squad is worse than less season will never escape your hidden thoughts.

Andy Gray is the first pundit to have the balls to question our boards mentality while you manager moaners ignore it because you decided Brands was a genius before he signed anyone.

People clueless about tactics talking nothing but tactics.

Steve Ferns
381 Posted 04/11/2019 at 09:47:17
Ed, he was playing as either the centre forward or the left forward. Spurs had a fluid attack, not that we saw too much of it. Son had no business being that deep or on the right touchline. He made the initial track back and then remained around where Gomes was. He did not do so to tell him he was a very naughty boy.
Chris Jenkins
382 Posted 04/11/2019 at 09:55:58
Rob Halligan @332- Rob many thanks for your second post in response to mine @203.

Just to set the record straight what I am really concerned about is the position the club is now in and my genuine fear is that unless a change is now made at manager and arguably director of football level, then championship football next season may well result.

My reference to another two points lost was simply to highlight that as each game goes by the pressure is becoming more and more intense particularly in view of the difficult fixtures coming up imminently.

I was actually at the match yesterday and was not sitting behind my little screen at home. The first match I was taken to was in 1963 and fortunately I have only ever watched top flight league football at Goodison since then. I want that to continue rather than see a return to the struggles of the early 1950's.

My opinion for what it's worth is that Silva has been a dreadful appointment as manager and I have grave doubts about the player recruitment policy over the last 17 months.

Steve Brown
383 Posted 04/11/2019 at 10:02:16
Derek @ 373, yes you sum it up well. Just to remind ourselves, Spurs were Champions League finalists last season, hammered us 6-2 last season by hitting us on the counter-attack when we over-committed and remain unbeaten against us in their last 14 premier league goals. What did you expect Silva to do?

And this is not a defence of Marco Silva. I questioned why we hired him and have commented on his poor performance this season. But overall his game plan and team set up yesterday was broadly right.

Derek Knox
384 Posted 04/11/2019 at 10:13:38
Fran Mitchell @ 375, good post there, very poor game altogether and horrific what has happened to Gomes, but that unfortunate incident has been the main post- match talking point.
George Cumiskey
385 Posted 04/11/2019 at 10:15:32
So Paul A Smith you think Silvas doing a good job ? Very strange I wish I could see whatever it is you do.
Paul A Smith
386 Posted 04/11/2019 at 10:17:23
Steve its what you come to expect mate. How many comments enlighten you?
The majority of what you read starts with what the poster has intended to stick with since day one.

Silva wasn't my choice, Koeman I hated before we got him but never in a million years do I see it fit to ignore how the board and Walsh let him down.

So many closed minds and hasty comments dictate our fanbase and most of it is empty.

All the ones that praised Moshiri and Brands before any success or achievment sticking to their guns in delusion. It stinks.

Anyone who went to the shareholders meeting before the season must have heard how many times they mentioned Calvert Lewin, Lookman Davies, the plans were to develop them.

That is the plan and whoever comes next has the same task. They wanted Tosuns wage out and he is our best finisher. They took a quick profit on our leading scorer so you lot could wait for Calvert Lewin and slag the manager.


Paul A Smith
387 Posted 04/11/2019 at 10:18:17
No George. I don't think he can. I tell you what isn't strange, the fact you assumed that.
Derek Taylor
388 Posted 04/11/2019 at 10:19:21
Far too early to be talking of 'must win' games. I suspect we shall still be fighting to avoid relegation deep into next spring. When we last went down in 50/51 (we won 12 of 42 games !) it went to the very last game.

We went to Hillsborough needing a solitary point to be safe. We lost 0-6 !

Gerry Quinn
389 Posted 04/11/2019 at 10:22:36
On a slightly different thread - Richarlison and his persistent diving or injury feigning.

Does anybody in Everton or Brazilian management or coaching ever speak to this guy about it?

I find it embarrassing and have always detested others doing it (including Ronaldo and Suarez mainly) as it is an awful form of cheating that the FA seem to have only punished one man for (Niasse) - nobody since...

I feel almost certain that Richie will be the next one the FA charge and ban - and rightly so.

Silva, or whoever, take him aside and tell him to fucking grow up and STOP the play acting and diving NOW

Gerry Quinn
390 Posted 04/11/2019 at 10:26:04
Sorry, just saw the Richie debate on another post...
Jim Harrison
391 Posted 04/11/2019 at 10:26:41
Son was definitely after a bit of payback. I don’t have access to full match footage, and it’s not shown in the highlights but it was obvious what he was up to even before he made the challenge. No wonder he holds.his head in his hands.

I may be doing the tv company a disservice here, but from what I have seen of the re runs during the actual game and in match if the day after there is no going back over the incident between the two players just before. If you can watch it I reckon you would be hard pressed not to agree. He’s not happy, goes to trip Gomes I n retaliation and it all gets out of hand. That’s why he deserves to be suspended. A pull back on the shirt is a booking, time wasting is a booking. This was a cynical professional foul. He may very well be a lovely lad. But he made a very bad call here.

And it’s not like he can’t lashed out when frustrated before. In one of the last games of the previous season he was sent off for something stupid too.

Brian Harrison
392 Posted 04/11/2019 at 10:52:50
I see some papers this morning claiming that Arsenal have given Emery 4 weeks to save his job, now it could all be press speculation. But what a difference between 2 clubs Arsenal sit 5th in the league and their manager is under pressure, we are 17th and our manager is under no pressure.

Let me say I wanted Silva and desperately hoped he would be a success, but we had a very poor run of form last season and to be fair he did turn things round. Now again this season we are going through another poor run of form, and its not as if we have had a tough fixture list so far. So this seems to be recurring problem for Silva, and I think next weeks game at Southampton will be massive for him and us. Obviously Southampton lost their last home game 9-0 so you know they will be trying 150% to try and win back the trust of their supporters, whereas our away form is terrible. So I think with an International break after the Southampton game coming up if we fail to get a result at Southampton, I could easily see the board of using the break to bring in a new manager.

I think that Marco Silva can have few complaints if he does get sacked, the owner has backed him with money to spend, so he cant say he wasnt given the funds to buy the players he wanted. As a manager results will determine your future and after a fairly easy run of fixtures we are 17th, I cant remember to many Everton managers who occupied this position for a few weeks keeping their job.

Peter Dodds
393 Posted 04/11/2019 at 10:58:30
Well I’m going to say it. I’m not sure I want Richarlison playing for us for much longer - not unless he can up his game. His antics aside, his play this season has not been at the level I expect of a €50m player (current valuation in Transfermarkt). Too often he shows little guile, and is incapable of beating most defenders. His finishing isn’t great. He’s quick but not strong. I wouldn’t sell him for €50m but last season he was valued at €80m, from memory. At that level I’d seriously consider it.
Derek Taylor
394 Posted 04/11/2019 at 11:03:39
But Brian, will your longed for defeat at Saints bring about a change of manager which might well see Moyes or Hughes welcomed back to Goodison ?

A good old 'un that 'be careful what you wish for !'

Steve Carse
395 Posted 04/11/2019 at 11:09:10
Pat (358), an interesting analysis, but it ignores a dimension that is not there in sports like American football: that football requires flow and momentum to be entertainment. It is not beset with natural stoppages -- when, for example, in Rugby Union a ball goes into touch it's typically another minute or more before it's back in play - in football it's typically only a matter of seconds.

Suggestions as to how VAR may be 'tweaked' to me seem only to exacerbate the breaks that take away so much of what is enjoyable and exciting in the game.

Julian Exshaw
396 Posted 04/11/2019 at 11:09:17
If a man ever needed a change in fortune it is Senhor Silva. I like him, he is a decent man and has remained very supportive of his players. His is polite, respectful and apparently works extremely hard. I know that these qualities alone won't automatically make him a winner but one can't help but feel sorry for him ( yeah, I know he earns millions but that is another point). I hope he turns it around, I truly do. I fear time is running out for him though.
Paul A Smith
397 Posted 04/11/2019 at 11:14:35
Mourinho is available. Lets see how ambitious we really are.

Easy fix for a struggling ambitious club isn't it. A terrible tactician that does everything wrong for a hugely successful manager is a no brainer isn't it.

Everyone on here already agrees don't we? Surely every poster that has been critical has been clamouring for Mourinho to be our new manager.

Everyone will post hugely positive scripts and nothing will go wrong because we have a load of class doing everything right under a genius.

If he can't take advice and instructions from Brands he is very cheeky isn't he.


Derek Taylor
398 Posted 04/11/2019 at 11:19:05
Has Mourinho ever had charge of an ailing club? Can you just imagine his demeanour coping with football idiots like Moshiri and Kenwright.

Somehow, I don't see him fitting into our set-up !

Brian Harrison
399 Posted 04/11/2019 at 11:23:15
Derek 394

I don't know if your comments were aimed at me in saying my long filled wish for defeat at Southampton. In the 65 years I have watched Everton I have never ever wanted them to get beat. I said if they don't get a result next week I could see the board sacking Silva as this game is followed by an International break. I agree with everything Julian in post 396 says, Silva comes across as a really nice and respectful guy, who by all reports works very hard on the training ground. I think because he comes across as a really decent guy maybe thats why the fans havent turned against him vocally.

But managers live and die by results.

Paul A Smith
400 Posted 04/11/2019 at 11:23:21
Derek its a little joke mate. Like the 2 names you mentioned.
If the debate opened up properly you would have all the Moshiri followers telling you Mourinho is poison or anything else to write it off.
Derek Taylor
401 Posted 04/11/2019 at 11:25:13
I'm rumbled, Paul and Brian. We need more fun on here, though !
Tony Hill
402 Posted 04/11/2019 at 11:37:25
Steve @379, yes it made Tosun's finish all the more impressive.
Kim Vivian
403 Posted 04/11/2019 at 12:12:51
What made Tosun's goal all the better for me was the quality of Dignes cross, volleyed from a long diagonal ball (from Delph? Siggy?). May have been commented but I haven't seen it, so thought it worth a mention. Class.
Steve Ferns
404 Posted 04/11/2019 at 12:18:07
Kim it was Mina
Lenny Kingman
405 Posted 04/11/2019 at 12:21:38
Wenger
Paul A Smith
406 Posted 04/11/2019 at 12:26:39
Kim the cross was superb and well worth you reminding us.
I think Digne is a confidence player and I hope that assist gives him the buzz to clear his defensive issues out.
Kim Vivian
407 Posted 04/11/2019 at 12:41:10
Cheers, Steve. I couldn't remember.

Is Mina ok? I thought he was favouring his knee yesterday. Hope that's not another one for the sick bay.


Paul - of course also it was immediate, instinctive, no messing about before crossing. Makes a massive difference.

I was at a loss to understand why Sidibe didn't cross in that final minute. It was like he suddenly put a white shirt on.

Rob Halligan
408 Posted 04/11/2019 at 12:44:04
Chris Jenkins, once again please accept my deepest apology following my vitriol towards you. It was made in complete anger following the events of the day, and also the fact that the number of pints I'd had during the day was into double figures. Having had time to reflect on events, I feel that I may have been a bit hasty in saying I was never going to post again.

I can fully understand everyone's desire who want Silva out. It's their view which I fully respect. I just feel, however, that in no way can Silva be apportioned any blame for us not winning yesterday. VAR decisions going against us, misplaced passes resulting in the spurs goal, a very serious injury to one of our players, everything seemed to be against us yesterday, and as I said, I thought we did well to get a point out of the game in the end.

Regarding the Gomes injury, I played amateur football for many years and had team mates suffer serious injuries, myself included, which believe me, knocks everyone, on both sides, totally sick. The last thing you want to do is carry on. Okay, amateur players can probably walk off and not face any serious consequences, but professional players cannot do that, and have to soldier on. So, as I say, I thought we did very well to get a point yesterday.

Anyway, Chris, once again, I'm sorry for my outburst towards you and hope to have many more conversations with you in the future.

Kim Vivian
409 Posted 04/11/2019 at 12:46:25
Well played, Rob.
Dave Abrahams
410 Posted 04/11/2019 at 12:46:58
The Daily Mail are reporting that Spurs will appeal the sending off of Son.

It is the Daily Mail that are reporting this news.

Tony Abrahams
411 Posted 04/11/2019 at 13:15:48
Paul A Smith I agree with a lot of what you say mate, and also think Silva hasn’t been properly backed this summer considering the way Everton finished the previous season.

We near enough balanced the books, and never got the players that we needed in key positions to really push on, and the next couple of windows should tell us a lot more about Everton’s strategy moving forward.

Silva has made a lot of mistakes this season, but I thought we were doing okay yesterday before Iwobi’s mistake. Not great going forward, but a defensive shape I hadn’t seen before from us this season, and hopefully now the manager can start picking people on merit?

Having to endure Schneiderlin ambling, and Michael Keane, looking like he’s just come out of the dentist having had six fillings, whilst Davies and Holgate, couldn’t get near the starting eleven, has been one of the biggest things Silva has got wrong, and although goals win you games, clean sheets are also very important, and yesterday was the first time Everton have looked likely to keep a clean sheet in ages, so I’m being positive on that front at least, even though Spurs scored!!

Joe Corgan
412 Posted 04/11/2019 at 13:18:10
Kieran and Jay (352 & 353) - As you rightly say, it's all conjecture at this point. There isn't a lot of information about the injury to go on. They have referred to it as a 'dislocation fracture' rather than a compound fracture, and there was no blood visible which would be expected in the latter case. That's potentially positive.

Once the bones have been re-set they can heal in a surprisingly short space of time. I would assume that his recovery will be monitored very closely to ensure that healing process is going smoothly. Hopefully the days of these kinds of injuries being career-ending are a thing of the past.

If it takes six weeks to for such an injury to heal (which is what is stated in various medical journals and case studies) then three months sounds about right in terms of getting back on a football field. If that's true then it's great news considering the circumstances.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

413 Posted 04/11/2019 at 13:25:18
**EDITORS**

Michael and Lyndon. May I suggest you look at Pat Finnigan's EXCELLENT post @ 358 and consider using it as the opening post on its standalone thread?

Otherwise, such a fine post may drown and be lost in the (understandable) noise and reaction to yesterday's game in this match day thread.

In reply to Pat, I 100% agree with you that clear communication between all invested parties - the on pitch and off pitch refs, the players, the managers, the fans, be they match attendees or sofa sitters - is sorely lacking in the VAR system. It is something that can be easily addressed.

I don't follow any North American sports so cannot compare your experience in those sports to what the English PL is experiencing with VAR.

You clearly lay out how everyone is 'kept in the loop' in your national sports as to just what is being reviewed and why the match is being delayed so nobody gets 'antsy'.

In two other national British sports - rugby and cricket - we have two outstanding examples similar to those you describe.

In cricket, there is a review system that team captains can use a couple of times per innings. Depending on what is being appealed, there is a linear process evaluating different aspects as to why or if the decision should be upheld or overturned. If any one of the linear steps fails, the review is immediately halted and rejected. It is heavily dependent on technology which has been continually tweaked to improve accuracy.

During the review process, the match-going fan can follow the thought process on big screens; the TV fan can do likewise and listen to the off field umpire's thought process in how he reaches his decision.

Very, very rarely does controversy result from cricket's review system. It is open and transparent. It is not long and protracted. There is no wriggle room for uhming and ahhing. It is not open to coming down to the off-field umpire's personal interpretation.

In rugby - the more appropriate parallel to football - they have an OUTSTANDING review system. More, the match referee is wired up all game and you can hear his running commentary as you watch the action. (search YouTube and Wales' Nigel Owen for outstanding - and comic! - examples of this).

This aspect of rugby's review system, I suggest, could not work in football for two reasons:

1) rugby players treat the match referee with TOTAL respect and courtesy, often addressing him as 'sir'. Beligerence, petulance, remonstrating with a rugby referee simply does not happen. The most you might hear is a team captain questioning him for clarification on a call.

2) rugby players swear, but nowhere to the extent that footballers do. Broadcasters simply could not run the risk of having a football match referee wired up for all to hear all game as it would be one long bleep and repeated apologies to the TV audience for the 'industrial language you may have heard' from disgruntled players.

Listening to a rugby referee's wired up commentary is fascinating. He helps the game flow, constantly telling players in open play that they are close to infringing, so they retreat from their potential foul play before committing it. When a foul is blown, he patiently explains to both the team captain and offending player just what the infringement is for.

When tight calls get referred, like cricket, transparency is total. The same video replays the off pitch referee is evaluating are shown on the stadium's big screens; the telly spectator can hear the dialogue between the on and off pitch refs.

Again, very, very rarely is there controversy as a result. The cricket and rugby review systems ADD to the drama of the match day experience. Football's VAR is currently detracting from it.

VAR in football is still relatively young. I personally thought it had a decent baptism at last year's world cup in Russia. A bit messier this year at the women's world cup in France as it also took into account a number of basic rule changes simultaneously.

I also thought it had a decent enough start to this PL season on its introduction. I actually considered it a positive that initially in-game VAR decisions were quietly being transmitted to the on pitch ref without any need for lengthy delays.

I say that because my experience of VAR in Brazil would be hugely incendiary to many on TW. No exaggeration, there have been reviews lasting as long as TWELVE MINUTES and at the end of all that, the referee still goes on a hunch. It made a mockery of what VAR was intended to achieve.

There was overkill in Brazil and the match ref was consulting the pitchside monitor too frequently. In England, that has swung too much the other way in that not one single referee has gone pitchside to look at the monitor. This can only be a directive from on high.

It simply doesn't make sense.

I agree with your points Pat that football needs to reinforce more vigorously the (supposedly) existing guidelines:

1) There is enough video evidence to overturn the call.
2) There is enough video evidence to confirm that the call was correct.
3) There is not enough video evidence to overturn the call or to confirm it, so the call stands.

If 1 and 2 are not immediately 'clear and obvious' then that IMMEDIATELY places the review in category 3. The review 'fails'. Move on.

Again, as you insightfully suggest, there is a world of difference in watching a play in real time as against frame by frame slow-mo replay.

Take Keane's penalty call v Brighton. In Formula 1, if there is a coming together of two cars but neither driver had any malicious intent or deliberately swerved off a natural line, it is dismissed as a 'racing incident' and neither driver incurs any penalty. What happened at Brighton can be similarly described as a 'football incident'. Keane and Everton should never have been punished for that.

So I agree with you Pat. VAR in the English PL is being misused. It should simply be applied to QUICKLY confirm or overrule the on pitch ref if there are 'clear and obvious reasons' to do so. Anything not 'clear and obvious' falls into your category 3 and so the review fails.

In recent weeks VAR referees appear to be over reaching their remit by analysing category 3 calls and making OFF FIELD judgement calls which isn't theirs to make.

ON FIELD refs are compounding this fundamental flaw in how the system is being wrongly applied by passively accepting the OFF FIELD refs call without consulting the pitchside monitor.

It's chaotic and needs to be urgently addressed.

Finally, going back to your original point Pat on communication and how review systems are shared with the public in cricket and rugby examples and your own north American sports.

Why are football supporters treated differently from the followers of other sports? Why aren't VAR reviews shown on stadium big screens? Why CAN'T we hear the live dialogue between the match official and the remote VAR ref?

Do the authorities think football supporters are not mature or intelligent enough to be allowed to follow the thought process and decision making?

Greater transparency would go a long way in improving standards and ensuring a fair and proper process acceptable to all.

Right now, we are all mushrooms having shit shovelled over us.

Chris Jenkins
414 Posted 04/11/2019 at 13:25:42
Rob @408

Thanks very much for your reply-

Please don't be concerned any further- I can fully understand your exasperation with the events of yesterday.

I honestly think that the vast majority of Evertonians are becoming really very frustrated at the current situation. We all have our own potential solutions.

We all want the club to be successful and to regain it's position as the pre- eminent team in the city - we have been in the shadows far too long- lets hope things move quickly in that direction

Rob Marsh
415 Posted 04/11/2019 at 13:30:02
Darren Hind # 364

"No reckless challenge, no terrible injury."

Darren, you're living in a perfect world where the sun always shines and the sky is always blue.

These lads are pumped with adrenalin and the line between reckless and acceptable is wafer thin at the moment the challenge is made, there's no time do a risk assessment.

Overall injuries like the one Gomez suffered are extremely rare and if you take the physicality out of the sport you've got women's netball played with feet.

Phil Greenough
416 Posted 04/11/2019 at 13:30:07
I'm hoping this may be the turning point for us. If that twat of an injury, the injustice of VAR, Sky Sports and the refs blatant bias doesn't fire them up, nothing will. The rest of the team have got to show what they're made of.

Mind you, listening to Silva drone on for about five minutes last night, I don't know he can motivate the team, he is so fucking boring. His voice is monotonous and I couldn't understand what he was saying.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

417 Posted 04/11/2019 at 13:34:08
Rob @ 408.

That's more like it Rob lad!

You can't just sod off from TW.

I need SOMEONE on TW to have clandestine chats about clikky with now and again!

Paul A Smith
418 Posted 04/11/2019 at 13:34:28
Tony I don't doubt for a minute Silva has made mistakes. Every manager does.

Coming out of the ground yesterday we walked towards stanley park and I got into conversation with 2 robotic blues.

First words from their mouths not about Gomes but "he has to go if we lose next week",, I bet they say that every week.

After hearing no back up to their claims I put my gripe across to which they both agreed with and added further fuel to my points by suggesting "some of these players are not good enough".
I was baffled again.

I include myself when I say all football fans are fickle but this has got to the numb brain stakes.
First they gave the generic shout then shot their own points down.

Pep has made mistakes this season. Pickford has now been making them for 3, Moshiri has the same record.

The funniest and most ironic shout is that Einstein shite people abuse for their own fuel against the manager but the beauty of it is, this is our fans to a tee. It used to be the other lot.

Expecting improvement after selling our best players and somehow seeing success with a worse 11.

And who questions what the board have done? Very few. Shit rolls downhill as they say and up the ladder they are getting away with kidding you.

Football has never been easier to fathom, don't buy 3 ok players buy 1 great player, and we have a massive fanbase willing to do this all over again with another manager.

The honeymoon will be ok until the realisation kicks in. Anyone who thinkz Silva came here to work with clown goalkeepers, struggling strikers and weak wingers must be mad.

Silva tried telling everyone before the Palace game this was a tough season ahead and the energy was all spent on praising Brands which automatically made Silva the scapegoat.

Now slowly as per usual, people are starting to ask why Brands left us short.

If its all Silva and the board have the ambition they claim to have, they won't mess, he is gone and Jose is persuaded.

I would bet my life we are just a business though and pipe dreams are for fans with ambition.

I have to add Iwobi was not needed, we accomodate him where we can because of his fee and i don't believe for a second he was on Silvas radar..

Brian Williams
419 Posted 04/11/2019 at 13:36:30
Rob#415.
Rob, sorry for sticking my nose in, but I believe Darren was referring to this single incident in isolation and merely stating that if there'd been no reckless challenge by Son there would have been no terrible injury and to be honest you can't really argue with that mate.
I don't believe he's advocating taking the physicality out of the game or players carrying out risk assessments, but merely stating what is a more than a reasonable assumption.
Steve Ferns
420 Posted 04/11/2019 at 13:39:13
I agree with Jay Wood (!) that Pat Finnigan's post should be extracted from this thread and given a talking point of it's own. I actually missed it. So thanks Jay for drawing it to my attention.
Tony Abrahams
421 Posted 04/11/2019 at 13:46:57
Keep posting Paul A, I enjoy what you’ve got to say mate, especially because I think you try and see the bigger picture, and also understand that nobody is ever right all the time.

I had a feeling you’d had a few bevies Rob, and having met you and knowing the dedication you show in following “Everton-Everywhere” I could totally understand why you lost it last night mate. The fact that you’ve come back on to apologise only shows the measure of the man that you are. Welcome back mate!!

Paul A Smith
422 Posted 04/11/2019 at 13:53:19
I only get frustrated Tony, I didn't expect a great deal with what we have so this doesn't hurt too much.

I have nothing against others either mate I understand we all see it different but at the same time I have no time for ignorance.

I will always be man enough to hold my hand up if I am wrong and I speak for out fans against anything that holds us back and stops our enjoyment.

I will honestly speak to any Evertonian about Everton.

I think Rob has apologised well today aswell. Humble and honestly.

Rob Marsh
423 Posted 04/11/2019 at 13:54:39
Brian # 419

I'll explain it another way.

Brian, my point to Darren is that if you remember Dirk Kuyt flying Kung Fu tackle on Phil Neville that was without any doubt whatsoever "Reckless" and cannot be excused even considering adrenalin and then compare this to Song's challenge last night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p52WBsEYIYk

It's subjective I know, but I don't think Song's challenge was a reckless career ending challenge, it was done in one of those adrenalin moments where the line is so fine between getting right and what happened.

Once again it's subjective, but the Song challenge in my opinion is part of the physicality of the sport and wasn't truly reckless.

Whereas what Kuyt did, well???

Craig Walker
424 Posted 04/11/2019 at 13:57:29
The seasons all merge into one for me now but the last time I can remember us playing well at Southampton was a rare impressive away performance under Martinez in the green kit, if I remember. We always seem to go there when they are struggling and they get a good result against us. I don't follow Southampaton at all but, if he plays, you can bet on Danny Ings scoring against us.

I like Silva as a bloke. He's a good ambassador for our club and much better than his predecessor. However, as others have said, we need to be winning football matches and I questioned his appointment at the time. I didn't see anything on his CV which made me think he would be a good fit at Goodison. He's spent a fortune and in truth, it is difficult to see where the money has gone. When you look at what the RS have spent on the likes of Robertson, Mane and Sallah then we really have wasted a golden opportunity to bridge the gap to the so-called top 6. Leicester, for example, look a far better team than we do: they have a natural goalscorer for starters. We've never replaced Lukaku who I didn't rate as highly as some but he would at least be a threat against most of the teams in the division.

We can't keep changing managers but I really do not think that Silva is the right man for the job. I'd love him to turn it around but I just don't see it happening. Our away form is an albatross around our neck which we have had for many seasons. We will never achieve anything unless we can make Goodison a fortress and start regularly picking up points on our travels.

At the moment, there is only BMD which gives me any hope for the future of our beloved club. I can't see anyone but the RS winning the league this year. They could very well be at the start of a period of dominance again. We are so far behind them as a football force. I'd at least like a manager who could get us a win against them as a starting point.

Sad times.

Fran Mitchell
425 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:04:26
Many people point to the fact that we didn't sign x, y or z in the window and true, in the window we did not sign all the players we need nor desire, but that does not justify anything that has transpired this season.

Good managers make the best with what they have, and there are many clubs with far inferior squads performing far more competently - that is not a result of transfer window, but training and preparation, about motivation, and about tactical nous. We lack in all aspects.

Injuries to GBamin, then Bernard and now Gomes are unfortunate, but do not excuse our position.

Ever since we got money, people have kept shouting 'we need x, y, or z' to improve - this bloody buy, buy buy mentality, which before we were in the money, we abhored.

The 'Everton' way, we would preach, was to make the best with what we had, to give 110%, make average players play above their capabilities...

Now we excuse every loss with a 'but we didn't sign a world class striker...but we didn't sign x, y or z'.

Tom Bowers
426 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:17:04
The big questions are about Silva and his coaching crew. What is the deal with Moise Kean and why was he signed?

Everton have scored 11 goals in 11 games which says little about Silva's offensive selections given that Kean is usually a non-starter.

This is totally unacceptable considering the strikers brought in to do a job (Tosun, Calvert-Lewin, Walcott, Richarlison and dare I say Niasse?) They all appear to be very limited and tells you why Everton are struggling.

Everton have only 4 wins against Premier League opposition (2 of those against bottom of the table Watford who are winless) What a miserable stat for Silva to ponder. That is scary!!!

Chris Williams
427 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:20:11
Fran,

I agree with your comment, up to a point. Where I tend to disagree is that I feel that the players we have lost and not replaced seem more important to me than some of the ones we have bought. We have a Zouma sized hole in the defence, a Gueye sized hole in central midfield and a Lukaku sized hole in attack. That’s basically the spine of the team.

This has been further aggravated by the injuries to Gomes, even before this awful injury, Delph, Gbamin, and Bernard. All midfielders, which has led to the selection of Schneiderlin, who while not doing very much wrong, doesn’t really contribute very much either.

That’s a fairly adult portion!

Roger Helm
428 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:25:32
VAR can’t work in football as nearly all the calls are subjective -was the player interfering with play, having his hand in a natural or unnatural position, intentionally contacting the opponent, out of control of his body, etc etc.

How long do TV pundits spend arguing about these issues?

In other sports it is a clear question- would the ball have hit the stumps, was the players foot in touch, was the ball grounded etc

As I have said before, we are refereeing games as in the 19th century. We need more than one referee on the pitch, as in the NRL and NFL. Also if we import the best players, why can’t we import the best referees in the world? I also agree they need somehow to communicate their decisions to the spectators.

Tony Abrahams
429 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:26:45
It was only after I posted that I read your comments about Iwobi, Paul A, and it definitely gives some food for thought.

I've been wondering what way our recruitment is going to go, especially because I thought we signed some good players when Brands first arrived at the club, and with Silva only having a 3-year contract (loads will be saying "Thank fuck!") this summer's recruitment didn't make nowhere near as much sense to me, because we seemed to concentrate as much on youth as experience and definitely left the manager short in key areas.

Too early to really speculate either way, hopefully a long-term plan, but definitely a feeling that you could be right about no real pipe-dreams for us long-suffering supporters, so let's just hope we get Bramley-Moore Dock done.

Marc Hints
430 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:28:32
I think its all irrelevant what we think of Silva, at the end of the day it's a results business and If Silva loses another game I think he will be sacked.

Looking at our December fixtures and the long-term injuries we have now, I am for the first time thinking we are going to fight relegation this season.

Joe McMahon
431 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:28:50
Craig @ 424 you are so correct about Leicester. I mentioned earlier in the thread how they have left us standing, and was corrected by Stan Schofield stating they were lucky with thier Premier league Title. Well good for them they took thier chance, Everton even blew a chance to be top of the table overnight by losing at Villa a few weeks ago.

They have left us standing, they have a good manager, stadium with 21st century facilities and squad. Everton have non of that. Just ignoring all of that is burying head in the sand.

Two weeks ago the score was Southampton 0 Leicester 9. Even if Southampton went down to 9 men can you see Everton replicating that scoreline on Sarturday? Nope neither can I.

David Pearl
432 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:32:57
Joe, cherry on the cake. You forgot we paid them to take Steve Walsh.
Steve Ferns
433 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:33:23
Fran, I also agree with you up to a point.

If Silva is brought in on the back of a certain vision, to play football a certain way, but then the players you give him do not fit that way, then you have to give him some slack.

For me, the biggest difference from last season is pace. Pace at the back and pace in the middle. Zouma allowed us to play a higher line and was able to recover quicker than Keane or Mina. Keane and Mina playing a high line is suicidal. And that's where Silva has to take blame, because he kept playing them and he kept playing that way. I think Holgate showed enough in the last few games to warrant inclusion in the starting line up. He might not have set the world alight, but he's been better than Keane. And this was no surprise to his number one fan, Mr Hinds. He needs to stay in the side, regardless of how high the line we play is. He is not lightning fast, but he's our fastest defender.

Then there is the pace of Gueye. I think Gbamin is meant to be quick. He looks reasonably so on YouTube, I didn't see him get into full stride in his brief appearances for us, but he looked alright. Without Gueye I think we suffer so much from being slow, and it doesn't matter that we have better passers without him, because they take too long to get things moving due to their lack of pace of foot and of mind. Gueye was clearly a bigger part of our attack than idiots like myself thought. Definitely wrong on that front, that's for sure.

But as someone said the other day, Silva wanted Gomes. I don't believe he was forced to have Delph. And Davies might not be the quickest, but he's quicker across the ground than Gomes or Delph, and certainly than Scheiderlin. So if Silva wanted to, he could have gone with Davies' pace all season long.

Mark Guglielmo
434 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:35:51
Best part of the rest of this comment section is that Rob H came back, and Rob M continues to be the voice of reason despite no one listening to him.

Ok back to the torches and pitchforks, lads!

Happy Monday indeed.

Chris Williams
435 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:37:32
Steve,

I think it's also possible that one of the fall-outs from Gueye leaving has been the poor performances of Sigurdsson. The whole balance of the midfield has changed now.

David Pearl
436 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:39:27
We went straight from keep ball with Martinez to Koeman and whatever it was he was trying to do. That put us back along with Walsh signings. Not the greatest decision-maker, Moshiri.

I believe in time Brands will turn it around and it looks like his game plan was to bring in mainly resellable assets. Which is what he's done.

Steve Ferns
437 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:39:38
David, we took two of Leicester's three key management team.

Steve Walsh - who signed the players
Craig Shakespeare - who said it was all down to him coaching them
Claudio Ranieri - the man who was actually the manager

We signed two out of the three. Neither showed that they could replicate that at Everton. Ranieri had a nightmare at Fulham, struggled at Nantes, did quite well for Roma, and is currently winless in his new job at Sampdoria.

Stan Schofield
438 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:40:26
Joe@431: Of course there's very little chance that Everton could replicate that score. But there's very little chance that any other opponent of Southampton could replicate it, including Leicester.

You say they have left us standing. Nobody was saying that before the season started. You said it on the basis of 10 games into this season, i.e. on the basis of their current good form versus our current bad form. If we had started the season on good form, and Leicester on bad form, you probably wouldn't be saying what you did, because you'd likely be a happy bunny. To make the kind of bold statements that you are making is ridiculous, and it's because you're not a happy bunny at the moment. None of us are.

By the way, to get some perspective on Leicester's title, their tally of 81 points is the same as the AVERAGE number of points achieved by Man Utd in the 15 seasons prior. That underlines the difference between a top side as Utd then were, and a side like Leicester. They got lucky by virtue of the top teams being under par that season. Yes, they made great use of the opportunity, but it was lucky.

Joe McMahon
439 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:40:57
David, Gawd - I forgot about that, how that man got paid thousands by Everton really is a sickener. What a state Everton FC are fecking in.
Mark Guglielmo
440 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:44:33
Marc @403 you bring up an excellent point. It’s a results business, on the pitch, to the fans. But Everton is a business, period. One that has a storied football club at the heart, but a business nonetheless.

Results also matter to those running the business, only their definition of results is ROI. While certainly possible, successful businesses don’t keep turning over management and expecting their ROI to improve. Sacking heads of departments or managers or what have you, typically precede those businesses faltering, and ultimately failing.

I know no one wants to hear this or likely even consider it, but it’s a fact regardless. Did anyone know that only ~25% of the global Fortune 500 today remains from the same list 25 years ago? Huge, storied businesses with lengthy histories fail and die every year.

I certainly can’t prove this, but if Moshiri doesn’t have ROI & profitability as his #1 goal, I’d be shocked. No matter how much it’s desired, football including Everton is never going back to 30-40 years ago. The global football world simply doesn’t allow it.

Just wanted to share another aspect and perspective that I’m not sure some have taken into account.

Fran Mitchell
441 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:46:02
The Zouma sized hole has been filled by Mina. A defense of Mina (£25million), Keane (25 million) and Holgate (highly rated) is not the 17th worst in the league. So not replacing Zouma is no excuse. Leicester sold Maguire and didn't replace him, but their defence is arguably better.

We sold Gueye (which I was exasperated about, although many on here thought he was a headless chicken not suited to Silva's 'system'). But have still had Delph for most of the season, Gomes, Sigurdsson, Davies – Sheff Utd are 6th with Everton youth reject John Lunsdtrom, Man Utd youth reject Oliver Norwood, and Lower League journeyman John Fleck. Would anybody ever swap their midfielders for ours? If we had that midfield, would Silva all of a sudden see our team win games and move up the league?

Up front, we have a relatively inform centre forward in Calvert-Lewin, we have a highly rated striker in Kean – far better than the days of Andy Johnson, Beckford, Bent, and what other lower league misfits we had – but we seem to be worse off. Palace can't buy a goal but are performing better than us.

The transfer window will not resolve anything – we need a manager who knows how to get the best of what he has, only then should we allow someone to spend money. We need a manager who will come in and manage, no excuses.

Again, blaming the not signing of a, b, or c is just an excuse in my book. A good manager gets a team playing well no matter what, then money should allow them to go further.

Never in a million years should this squad be 17th and staring at a relegation battle but we are. That is Silva's fault, no matter who we did or didn't sign.

Joe McMahon
442 Posted 04/11/2019 at 14:52:46
Stan, yes you are correct in your points. At the end of the day though we find ourselves staring at relegation, with injuries galore and a main striker that won't hit anything near 15 goals (even) in a season.

My point being the foxes wouldn't find themselves in that position as thier squad is full of talent and they have a an experienced manager who knows what he's doing. Everton don't seem to take that route, often employing managers with relegation on thier CV.

It doesn't matter what we both think anyway, but our Club is currently 17th in the table after 11 games, 20 points behind top of the table Liverpool.

Stan Schofield
443 Posted 04/11/2019 at 15:02:41
Joe, where I think you're wrong is the assertion in that middle paragraph. Leicester have been midtable since winning the title, often struggling. It may be that they've turned a corner, and will be better than midtable under Rodgers. But we don't know, because it's too soon to say after just 11 games into the season.

Form can be, and usually is, like that, it comes and goes in purple patches followed by struggling when you're midtable. There's not enough evidence to say Leicester aren't simply in a purple patch of good form. We had a purple patch in Koeman's first season, many people thinking we'd turned a corner, but look how that turned out.

Non-Evertonians, including some Leicester supporters I know, tell me that we've got really talented players and a good manager, and that things will come good. Imagine if Leicester had current bad form and we had current good form. Some of their supporters would, similar to you extolling them, be extolling us as a model to follow.

Mark Guglielmo
444 Posted 04/11/2019 at 15:12:09
I'll keep talking to myself :-D

The next 2 matchdays feature:

Everton (11 pts)
@ Southampton
vs Norwich

Southampton (8 pts)
vs Everton
@ Arsenal

Norwich (7 pts)
vs Watford
@ Everton

Let's say, as fans, we believe we can take all 6 pts (cue laughter from the audience), as we should. Two of the matches are 6-point swings. Southampton isn't going to Arsenal and getting a result in all likelihood. We get a small sliver of luck and maybe Watford can hold Norwich to a draw, and by matchday 14, we have 17 pts, both Southampton/Norwich have 8.

That's 9 points clear of “November relegation,” and is also assuming that everyone from 5th to 16th all maintain their spots, which I'm fairly certain is mathematically impossible.

What you believe is up to you but it's possible that things look a lot less dire by then. COYB

Paul A Smith
445 Posted 04/11/2019 at 15:20:40
£25 million automatically means quality now does it? When the top centre backs cost £60-70 million, £25 million is somehow seen as decent?

Now don't get me wrong here, we could get a bargain at £25 million one day but we haven't so far. Keane is one big slouch that has struggled to ever get going here.

We tend to be in for defenders that nobody else wants to battle for. £25 million, under no pressure, for a centre-half Man Utd spewed a year earlier, and they finished one place above us.

David Pearl
446 Posted 04/11/2019 at 15:30:00
Mark, if we don't beat Southampton and/or Norwich and Moshiri doesn't sack him then there will be major demonstrations. He can't survive another two losses and probably not even two draws. VAR has done some damage but we could be in the bottom three when we should be challenging for the top.

And yes we have the players... It's time for Silva to be brave. We looked quite solid yesterday but too slow to transition. Only Walcott looked sharp for the outball in the first half and he was the one replaced. I still don't get why the first sub was to bring on attacker for another attacker when we had 3 midfielders on the pitch.

David Pearl
447 Posted 04/11/2019 at 15:33:46
Paul, we chose to go fo Keane when we could've gone for Maguire, and a year or two earlier Van Dijk. I wouldn't write Keane off yet though. Silva can now see that Holgate can be a player too.

Also disappointing that Baines hasn't played a single minute. He should've moved on as he's wasted what could be his last season.

Kieran Kinsella
448 Posted 04/11/2019 at 15:33:57
Mark

Easier said than done but we should try to follow the Liverpool and Leicester blueprint versus these two. Man City did their usual possession game, and huffed and puffed for 90 mins before being beaten at Norwich and escaping with a late winner versus Southampton. Liverpool and Leicester just let them have it all guns blazing from the get-go and won easily.

Jay Harris
449 Posted 04/11/2019 at 15:36:52
Despite all the talk being about Gomes and VAR, and rightly so, I just want to add to Fran Mitchell posts that IMO it is a disgrace that as a football club we are talking about possible relegation fight instead of getting in the top 6.

This is a very poor reflection of the management of the club at every level and 4 managers and, £500M later, we find ourselves in this position.

A blind man can see that we keep letting top quality players go and then replacing them with average players or kids with "potential".

To me, and I'm no expert, our midfield has been weak for years - no bite and no goals. Up front, most other teams have a centre-forward that can get you 10+ goals a season. We don't.

Add to that we keep ex players who have fallen on hard times (which is very commendable) in positions of influence. Is it any surprise we are a soft touch as a club.

We are in a Premier League that is as ruthless as it is lucrative and all clubs can spend megabucks now but only those who spend it wisely and to a plan and purpose will prosper.

What is our plan and purpose?

Moshiri apparently doesn't know as he staggers from one bad decision to the next.

The board don't know and I believe there are two camps there with different agendas.

The manager obviously doesn't know as he chops and changes the team every game.

It seems that Duncan cuts a lonely figure as Boa Morte and Silva discuss things so I wonder how much harmony is in the coaching staff.

Something is seriously wrong at Everton and its not just Silva nor Koeman although IMO Silva needs to go asap and we need a strong manager who can manage the players and keep the board on their toes.

We need some action now rather than wait till the ship is leaking so badly it will sink.

Danny Baily
450 Posted 04/11/2019 at 15:37:59
We're headed for relegation, even if we survive this year, under the current stewardship.

A new manager, with a fresh coaching staff and, crucially, no director of football is key. Walsh and Brands are just as culpable for our current predicament as Silva is.

Chris Williams
451 Posted 04/11/2019 at 15:45:33
Fran,

I think that the basic problem is that I reckon our team is actually weaker this season, without Zouma and Gueye, than last season. The issue of replacing Lukaku is a longer-standing matter as we all know.

We have come into this season with a decent but unbalanced squad, but fundamentally flawed because of the players we have lost. This has been aggravated by the injuries to Gbamin, who was seen as the Gueye replacement,and the loss of Gomes for 4 league games and Delph for 5, I think.

We should not be in the position we're in for sure, and Silva must take responsibility for things like set-piece weaknesses (not zonal yesterday?), lousy away form, never winning once going a goal down, inflexibility, and not knowing his best starting 11 (I don't think he's picked the same starters on 2 consecutive occasions this season in the league). We should also not be getting beaten by most of teams who have beaten us regularly this season, despite our ‘missing' players.

I've come to the conclusion that any expectation of an improved position this season, and I had one, is sadly misplaced because of the structural weaknesses we have, but most of the rest of the problem belongs to Silva.

Maybe I'm just depressed.

David Pearl
452 Posted 04/11/2019 at 15:45:37
Allardyce didn’t deserve to be sacked for the job he did. As in picking up points and finishing 8th. Compared to Silva who deserved to be sacked weeks ago.
Christy Ring
453 Posted 04/11/2019 at 16:00:20
Joe @442, Agree completely.

Rodgers bought 2/3 players in the window, sold Maguire for ridiculous money, didn't replace him, and has Leicester playing to their strengths, doesn't put square pegs in round holes.

He is a top manager, and even though I've no time for Danny Murphy, he said at the time, when Silva was being considered, Rodgers was a perfect fit, because he couldn't go any further with Celtic, and Moshiri had the funds.

Stan Schofield
454 Posted 04/11/2019 at 16:00:43
Jay @449: Mark @440 makes valid points about football being a business. In Everton's case, it's possible that Moshiri is happy for us to be midtable so long as we're in the Premier League. There signs of that, in a readiness to sell our best players for a profit, replacing them at lower cost, and then eventually selling them at a big profit if they come good. This process of selling at a profit seems to take priority over actually trying to win something. which would have a higher chance of happening if we kept our best players whilst signing additional quality.

The danger of this is, of course, the occasional foray into the relegation zone, typical of habitual midtable clubs, the worst-case scenario being actual relegation.

If this is Moshiri's approach, then we might anticipate never winning anything, and might realistically also anticipate never being relegated even with the forays near the relegation zone.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
455 Posted 04/11/2019 at 16:01:39
Good post, Rob @408.

I'd just seen your toy-throwing @203 and was in the process of reluctantly terminating you, but that apology was spot-on. Thanks.

Mark Guglielmo
456 Posted 04/11/2019 at 16:22:49
Dave @446 no argument from me, mate. Lose to Southampton and he’s gone. I’m just trying to find a reason to be optimistic because the next 2 fixtures are winnable and the 3 teams below us stink. I’m praying we stink less!

Kieran @448 also agreed. We, and especially Silva, have nothing left to lose. Give ‘em all we got, essentially. Of course getting out of bed seems easier said than done for our lads right now.

Have faith fellas. It really is possible that we’re mid-table by matchday 14. I’d rather we focus on that than worrying about being bottom 3.

Andrew James
457 Posted 04/11/2019 at 16:26:23
On the Son foul. I think the ref/VAR have messed this up and caused a lot of us to debate it.

It's an intention v outcome debate. Son deservedly got the yellow for hunting his target down and not going for the ball.

As sickened as I am for Andre, the FA have messed this up. You can't wave a yellow for the foul then look at the injury caused by it and then add a red. You have to look at the action, not the result.

Son, when truth be told, didn't catch Andre badly enough to injure him in isolation. He did set off the chain of events though. So the ref should have judged the colour of the card on his lunge. Not the severity of Andre's injury.

Fair enough, if he decides that Son had intent, wasn't getting near the ball and it was dangerous, then red card him. But to change the colour of the card following a delay and emotions boiling over, it's officialdom just changing the rules or etiquette and procedures on the spot. They lose all credibility (not that there's much left in that tank) and it goes to show the game is being officiated by players and outcomes.

Plus if VAR told the ref to change the card colour, didn't they take into account the studs getting stuck and the sheer bad luck of Aurier being where he was in front of Andre? Why is VAR seeing things so differently from the ref? Or is VAR now an omnipresent judge, handing out sentences based on what it thinks is the right thing to do or will go down in the media better?

To clarify, I am not defending Son or saying it wasn't a red or was just a yellow. I am disturbed by how badly the FA are getting VAR wrong and twisting and turning each weekend.

Given Andre has expressed issues he had at Barca, I am especially saddened he has suffered this horrible injury.

As for what Mr Halligan had to say, while he was clearly angry and went over board, he does have a point. To be calling for Silva to go when we have been shafted two league games on the spin by officials and certain players have done very silly things (what was Iwobi doing, he takes the ball off TD who has delivered it through midfield to then just thread it back to a Spurs player?!) is difficult to hear.

Simon Smith
458 Posted 04/11/2019 at 16:55:48
I only saw 3 minutes of the game yesterday, that was peering through someone's window whilst I was stuck in London traffic, was listening to BBC 5 live though.

I haven't read all the above comments, both commentators said it was ridiculous that we didn't get a penalty.

Awful for Gomes, I hope he recovers well.

Surely this January is going to be incredibly important for us. We must use it wisely to sign some reinforcements, as with what squad we have at our disposal currently, I am really starting to worry.

Centre back
Mobile number 8
Centre-forward.

Sam Hoare can probably give us some good options on personnel for those positions????

Stan Schofield
459 Posted 04/11/2019 at 17:38:34
If the correct decision had been made on the penalty we should have had, the course of the game would have been different, and Andre Gomes would not have a broken ankle. Appalling officiating led to appalling circumstances.
Iain Johnston
460 Posted 04/11/2019 at 17:49:58
Four of our players have now suffered this type of injury in the last five years, Oviedo, Coleman, McCarthy & now Gomes... coincidence?
Paul A Smith
461 Posted 04/11/2019 at 17:51:20
Dave Pearl I agree mostly mate. We sat in the upper gwladys when Maguire played for Silva at Hull. 2 of us in our group said we have to buy that Maguire lad.

Instead we paid 10 million more for Keane. This is where incompetence comes in. 2 fellas who have never coached could see it, what was Walsh seeing? and to not know Maguire was on the up and Keane gone from United to Burnley is simply stupid.

This has been a great thread. Apart from all the Gomes anger we seem to be communicating properly as concerned fans.

Stan Schofield
462 Posted 04/11/2019 at 18:12:06
Paul @461: Last season Keane had a good season, to a point where he was continually getting plaudits on ToffeeWeb, and being considered better than Maguire. He was recalled for England duty. He gelled very well with Zouma.

So far this season, he's in relatively poor form. He was a very good signing. Let's not extrapolate from a situation of poor form to make assertions about how good he is generally.

Kieran Kinsella
464 Posted 04/11/2019 at 18:22:29
Iain

I think you're right. This conspiracy has been going on for years back to Bracewell injured at Newcastle, through Gbamin at Villa, as well as some you mentioned such as Ovideo at Stevenage, McCarthy versus Albion and Gomez versus Tottenham.

If you take the initials of teams that injure our players: Stevenage, Albion, Tottenham, Aston Villa, Newcastle: Acronym for SATAN

Darren Hind
465 Posted 04/11/2019 at 18:24:04
Rob Marsh @415,

What a quaint little post. The naivety simply dripped from every line.
Let me explain the difference between a reckless challenge and an act of complete shithousery.

"Reckless" - Rash, impetuous. Heedless of consequences of ones actions... Got that ?

"Shithousery" - A deliberate attempt to maim or badly damage an opponent whilst not putting oneself in any danger at all. Usually attempted, by going over the ball or in the form of two-footed challenge. . but always with studs showing? Got that? Seeing the difference ?

Two things were going though Son`s mind when he went for a ball he couldn't win. The first was, what the cheating fuckers today, call "taking one for the team". The second was a desire to extract retribution. He believed (wrongly) that he had been deliberately elbowed. Either way, he gave no thought for the consequences. Despite your "He didnt mean it" protestations. His challenge was, by definition a reckless one.

You may feel the need to put up a link of Kuyt's tackle in order to demonstrate it was "reckless" but most Evertonians will have seen something far more spiteful, malicious and cowardly. Most won't need your link. They will have instant recollection of that stomach-churning act of total shithousery.

When I said without Son's challenge that injury would not have happened. I wasn't (as you seem to believe) giving an opinion. I was stating a matter of fact.

Bobby Mallon
466 Posted 04/11/2019 at 18:30:49
Daren Hind @465,

Didn't Walcott do just that, foot up studs showing foot went over ball and straight into Spurs player's ankle. Shithousey tackle (your words) ... sending off then?

Alan Smith
467 Posted 04/11/2019 at 18:32:57
We are building for seventh.

What more evidence do you need? We signed the 4th best Portuguese coach maybe the fifth. Bizarrely. No one stops to think isn't it strange how many Portuguese guys get prem jobs? Maybe it's fashion not substance.

But I digress and it's not actually his fault.

We sold Lukaku and tried buy kid replacements.

Will we be in for Werner? No

Will we be in for Mourinho? No

Will we try and loan bale in January? No

Will we buy Zaha, and Zouma in January. The better than average players Silva wanted in the summer? No

Are we building a ground smaller than Newcastle and only a 2k more than Sunderland, with hardly any private boxes? yes.

Are we building a club that will double its share price in 10 years by being sensible, conservative and hovering around 7th to 10th? Yes.

Do the board want to take the risk necessary to make us serious challengers for trophies?absolutely not.

Consolidation. Consolidation consolidation!

Keep them strung along, collect the tv money and the ever-increasing sponsorship money. Build a shiny new stadium and sell for 5k a share. Not bad after you paid 2k.

Trophies don't even come into the imagination of this board. Leeds, Newcastle. Spurs even once Kane is gone?

He sold Stones and turned his nose up at Koulibaly for a similar fee. And wasted £40M on Williams and Keane instead.

He's said he "will buy a £70M striker but he's not paying the silly wages they want"??? Haha, so he won't pay for one then.

So a Dutch charlatan is brought in to magic boss players up? Why didn't Man City, Liverpool, Man Utd want Brands then? if he can unearth gems and has all the answers?

Absolute joke.

Basically, we are all waiting for one lucky season when we freakishly win a cup. I will celebrate wildly because I have realised how high the odds are. And any top players we find will be sold after their first great season.

Paul A Smith
468 Posted 04/11/2019 at 18:34:30
Stan I think the comment you made about ref decisions not called correctly lead to Gomes injury has some substance. A point nobody else has made and to me carries some of the blame.

On Keane I don't doubt he can have a good run of games I am saying he is not good enough and hasn't been overall.

In last seasons good run, who never played well? There will be players you didn't rate then or don't now that have had a good run of games.

Brian Williams
469 Posted 04/11/2019 at 18:38:34
Bobby #466.

With regard to the Walcott incident, me and those around me actually thought the VAR red card check WAS for the Spurs player.

It looked to us like Walcott had gone in full-blooded but fairly and the Spurs player had gone in two-footed. Only saw it the once, as it happened, so can't be sure but that's how we felt at the time.

That's where VAR falls down AGAIN as nobody was sure either way while the check went on.

Darren Hind
470 Posted 04/11/2019 at 18:44:19
Bobby

Walcott was trying to drag the ball back with the sole of his boot. foul maybe, some would give it, but shithousery? Trying to maim???

If you are seriously trying to put that in the same category as Kuyt's gutless challenge on Neville, I don't see the point in arguing with you.

Jay Harris
471 Posted 04/11/2019 at 19:31:25
Bobby,

I don't know whether you saw the Walcott incident at all but, if you did, you have it totally wrong.

For a start, Walcott had his back to said player and dragged the ball back. The Spurs player coming in from late behind kicked Walcott so it should have been a free-kick to Everton, instead of which Martin Useless Atkinson gave them a free-kick and booked Walcott – which, for me, was the real turning point in the game because it riled the supporters and players so much we lifted our game.

Steve Ferns
472 Posted 04/11/2019 at 19:39:46
Jay, that reminds me of the recent Tim Cahill interview. He said any time the team needed a lift, he'd tell Tony Hibbert. Then the next opposition attack he'd show the player outside and onto Hibbert who'd then put in one of those full-blooded Hibbert tackles. I wasn't aware Hibbert was the go-to man for the crowd-raising tackle as I always thought that was the job of Carsley for that particular team.

It's something that got passed on from team to team. We always had someone who would put in the big tackle and get us going. Bu,t sometime after Moyes, we lost that. Jags, Coleman and Baines were still here and playing until only last season. Why's it not been passed on? Or is it just that we don't have such players anymore?

Paul Tran
473 Posted 04/11/2019 at 19:49:04
We don't buy them, Steve. We buy players who are mentally weak and lack nous. We buy players who don't score goals. My guess is that's why we don't score enough goals and can't come from behind.
Ken Kneale
474 Posted 04/11/2019 at 20:11:49
Alan is that 7th in the Championship? We are nowhere near 7th in the Premier League with this team and manager.

Lack of character in manager; players, as you outline, that no top teams go near or they are actually selling to us for high fees; players with no stomach for battling adversity; charlatans at directorship level.

It is truly depressing being stuck in the never-ending Everton maze with no way out. I brightened up my day by reviewing the photo of Alex Young vs Spurs 1963.

Rob Marsh
475 Posted 04/11/2019 at 22:00:12
Darren Hind # 465

Your loyalty to the club and its players does you credit, but we are poles apart, there's not a lot more to be said.

With your reasoning a following and content partner to your standpoint, it's probably best if we just agree to disagree this time.

Mark Guglielmo
476 Posted 04/11/2019 at 22:41:53
Steve @472 at first I actually thought you were asking a rhetorical question. The reason we don't have those players is because those players barely exist anymore. The days of a squad having homegrown talent and 1-2 foreign internationals hasn't existed for 15+ years now. It's why someone like Tom Davies instantly gains the love of the supporters, he's “theirs.” Richarlison is just the latest mercenary by contrast.

Everton is a small club (globally) and at best, a stepping stone destination that players view as a means to the next rung on their professional ladder. For every Seamus Coleman, there are 100 others who are here for 2-4 years and on to the next club. And it's like that everywhere now.

I'm not saying they don't respect the shirt and the badge, they just don't have that same connection that players of yesteryear did. So... we don't have them and you can't buy them.

Rob Marsh
477 Posted 04/11/2019 at 23:03:35
Mark #476,

Here's a name to salivate over if you want a homegrown Scouse mercenary:

Ross Barkley!

Phil Greenough
478 Posted 04/11/2019 at 23:05:41
Sad state of affairs, at each other's throats now, with our difference of opinion. Yes, every one is entitled to theirs, but it's tearing the club apart.

At the end of the day, it's no use trying to score points off each other by trying to prove you were right, or even worse, "I told you so." All of our competitors fans could be reading ToffeeWeb and pissing themselves laughing.

At the end of the day, all this bitching is achieving nothing, total useless energy spent. For all I know this is probably wasting my time. This thread reminds me of a bar full of adults who have had to much to drink, each trying to prove that they are in the right. We are all Evertonians and want the best for our club, but it's not achieved by tearing ourselves apart.

Oh I wish for the times when I went in the Netley or the Springfield after he game at 5pm, asking the barman to turn the racing off on C4, so we could see the results and argued the toss between four or five of my mates.

Brian Williams
479 Posted 04/11/2019 at 23:12:56
Phil. It's a sign of the times unfortunately mate. There is still the option to do what you said you used to do. It's good to have a rest from online shite.
David Pearl
480 Posted 04/11/2019 at 23:29:02
Phil, this thread reminds me of The Borg off Star Trek. Many voices. One collective. Yes I’m a bit of a nerd. Everyone had something to say about the Spurs game. A lot of it pent up frustration. Things are calming down a bit. We all want the same result but disagree on what we have to do to achieve it.

Paul A, perhaps Walsh was a double agent. Working for us, even commanding a transfer fee... yet allowing Leicester to pick up the better players while we got Klaassen and Sandro. Oh and Bolasie.

Everton’s luck mirrors my own.

We have better players than we think we do l recon. How good could we be if our manager could unlock the potential? Davies could really break through this year. I’d even forgotten about Gbamin. Wonder how long he is out for now.

Dave Abrahams
481 Posted 04/11/2019 at 00:01:23
Phil (478),

Ah yes, the Netley, Chocca full of Evertonians with 40 or 50 glasses of Guinness lined up on the bar, with the same amount of cheese and ham cobs ready for sale, to drink and eat while we discussed the latest Everton victory.

Happy days indeed, but gone forever, like a lot of great Bluenoses I used to drink with, mores the pity.

John Reynolds
482 Posted 05/11/2019 at 01:18:21
I 💙 Rob Halligan
John Reynolds
483 Posted 05/11/2019 at 01:34:13
Rob Marsh, 423, 415, and many previous. Pedantic on my part, but could you at least do André the courtesy of using his name correctly? Gomes, not Gomez.

While I’m at it, Son, not Song.

Everything else you’d written seemed so assured, though I agreed with very little of it.

Ernie Baywood
484 Posted 05/11/2019 at 02:23:40
Paul 461 "2 fellas who have never coached could see it, what was Walsh seeing?"

I think we do ourselves down as fans. In any industry, people who participate, observe, and read about a topic as much as we do and for as many years as we do would be considered experts.

We might not see players in training but I reckon our opinion is absolutely valid. How many Evertonians saw that playing two defensive midfielders was a problem? We certainly reached that conclusion well before the professional football manager that picks the team did.

Andrew Keatley
485 Posted 05/11/2019 at 03:10:13
Stan (459) - Yes, if the penalty was given then it would have created a different sequence of events in which any number of things could have happened, possibly better, possibly worse. That is the nature of choice and consequence. If you think too much about it, you'd never leave your home or get in a vehicle.
Jay Harris
487 Posted 05/11/2019 at 03:49:05
Steve, sign of the times: it took Martin Atkinson and his fucked-up refereeing to get us going.

Don't the players realize that, if they put a shift in, the crowd will respond?

Derek Knox
488 Posted 05/11/2019 at 06:11:22
Welcome back Rob Halligan, you have been sorely missed. :-)

I know we all love Everton but what is happening to the Club from the top down is little short of a disgrace, and the victims are us as fans. Especially loyal fans like you Rob who attends every match home or away, and in the distant past abroad, rain hail or snow.

It is easy to vent one's spleen after such poor displays by the team, and in response to fellow posters, which I'm sure isn't meant, it's just that a Forum like TW is the only way to do so, as the guilty are conveniently out of reach.

Another practice that is extremely unwise is to post after a few beers, as we all say things we don't really mean, and spill in the heat of the moment only to regret it in sobriety.

Jerome Shields
489 Posted 05/11/2019 at 08:04:14
I was only ablle to follow the live forum and MotD highlights.

I thought overall, Everton played reasonably well. The Iowbi pass split his own defence and, Mina's roly-poly tackle aside, Davies was outstanding.

Son's tackle on Gomes from from behind, not near the ball, clearly out to spoil Gomes's play, was aggressive and dangerous. Definite red card.

The Premier Leagues introduction of VAR is half-baked. With the money available, there are definitely a few Muppets involved.

Silva has still not got a settled and organised attack. Out-of-favour players seem to be our savours at the moment. There is still weaknesses in pass completion in the final third.

If Richarlison could have cut out the dying swan routines, Everton would have got a clear penalty.


Paul A Smith
490 Posted 05/11/2019 at 08:05:52
Yes, Ernie, I fully agree mate. It's galling when fans or general public question your judgement.

How many managers now or recent years were never footballers or not for long? There is plenty, some very successful but a Walsh comes in and some empty head will tell you "I'm sure he knows better than you".

Of course he is closer to players but we watch football enough to know what makes sense surely? The biggest killer is why nobody asks if he is such a genius or shrewd football man, why don't the best clubs want him?

Near everyone was delighted with Schneiderlin (at first) and thought we signed a gem, my original thought was forget hype and the joy of a fresh face, when do Man Utd sell us a gem?

There are far more intelligent people than me that wouldn't have the balls to ask themselves that question.

So, in summary, we respect the PE teachers and Director of Football blaggers that have never kicked a ball but all our managers get ridiculed.

Mick Conalty
491 Posted 05/11/2019 at 09:25:30
Alan Smith #467 Agree with you totally. Just wonder how much interest Moshiri is getting on his EFC investment.
Stan Schofield
492 Posted 05/11/2019 at 09:31:28
Andrew @485:

The significance of this situation is the presence of systematic bias in the officiating. That bias is not random in the sense in which you are talking, but systematic in that it has a clear observable pattern. Yes, we should never really think too much about random events, but systematic root causes of problems are an entirely different matter.

What the Premier League are doing, prima facie, is endangering players of certain clubs through biased officiating, when they should be protecting players so far as they reasonably can, through proper officiating. You can never fully prevent broken ankles, but an organisation should not be guilty of practices that make such things more likely.

Bobby Mallon
493 Posted 05/11/2019 at 09:46:07
Darren Hind, I'm not putting Walcott challenge in anyone's category, I'm just pointing out that Walcott's foot was off the floor, it touched the top of the ball, rolled over, and hit the player's ankle. You said tackles with a foot off the ground and studs showing was shithousery... YOU.

The same message to you, Jay Harris: I didn't say Walcott's was a bad tackle – just pointing out Mr Hind's interpretation would have had Walcott sent off.

Sam Hoare
494 Posted 05/11/2019 at 09:51:33
Finding it hard to be an Everton fan this season.

Bad results.
Poor football.
Terrible luck.

It's hard to see Silva turning it around from here though maybe Gomes' injury may result in a rallying cry. I do feel that we've been hard-done-by at times (so does every fan of every team in every sport). Especially the controversial VARs against Brighton and Spurs. If they go for us rather than against us then maybe we win both matches and we are 7th instead of 17th. And in the quarter finals. Big and probably unhelpful 'ifs'.

The margins are small but seem to be going against us in all ways.

The Southampton match may well result in the losing manager being sacked. Silva has shown some more flexibility in the last few matches and the players apparently back him entirely. But results are all that matter in the last chance saloon.

Bobby Mallon
495 Posted 05/11/2019 at 09:59:07
I’m not advocating this person as a new manager, but would anyone have Gerard as our new manager?
Paul A Smith
496 Posted 05/11/2019 at 10:05:26
Mick @491, it's probably the most realistic post in here. Loads won't like it but it won't be proved wrong.

I don't like the reality either, to be fair, but to move on, or "evolve" as Gary Neville says, it's important we don't miss a detail as loyal fans and also fine-tooth comb the lot of it.

Otherwise, we just ride it out again and again.

Derek Taylor
497 Posted 05/11/2019 at 10:05:59
Black mark, Bobby, for thinking the unthinkable!
Rob Halligan
498 Posted 05/11/2019 at 10:09:23
Phil 478 and Dave 481. Ah, The Netley. Brings back bad memories does that pub, even though I've never stepped inside the place.

Many years ago, my Sunday league team were playing The Netley in a Liverpool county FA Cup game up in Bootle. Everything was going well up to half time, only because we were losing 2-1. The second half was a different kettle of fish altogether. We equalised, then went 3-2 then 4-2 ahead. The Netley players and their line didn't take too well to this. Come the end of the game, they had had four players sent off, and everyone, including the three subs, booked. Only one player from their fourteen wasn't booked or sent off, and he actually came to us and apologised for what had happened.

Their line, which was the length of the pitch, were encroaching onto the pitch, and come towards the end of the game, they must have been a good ten yards onto the pitch. I was in goal and will never forget the threats I was receiving.

I believe they were expelled from all Sunday football by the Liverpool County FA after that, so apologies if either of you two were involved with The Netley. Their expulsion had nothing to do with us!!!

Phil Greenough
499 Posted 05/11/2019 at 10:59:31
We've already discussed having Houllier as our prospective manager, Bobby.
Jerome Shields
500 Posted 05/11/2019 at 11:03:16
Sam #494,

As Howard Kendall once said, you can as a team look as if you have potential and just have players of potential, but the team has to realise the potential and win games, or words to that effect, when he took over as manager of a young Man City side.

David Donnellan
501 Posted 05/11/2019 at 11:03:45
Rather chew glass than see that DJ-beating creasehead in our dugout.
Sam Hoare
502 Posted 05/11/2019 at 11:29:01
Jerome, yes, prolonged poor results can never really be excused. Ultimately a manager/team have to make their own luck.

It's a shame as (despite everything) I still think Silva may be the hardest-working and most likeable manager we've had in a long time. I would not be surprised to see him do well elsewhere. Beginning to think with managers it may be more us than them!

Paul A Smith
503 Posted 05/11/2019 at 11:52:41
Bobby, why not Tim Cahill? I would never have a former red manage us. Even Kevin Sheedy and his tiny spell there.

I would rather be managed by a debt management agent. Whoever is next needs backing.

Although I still think Silva showed what he can do when we have a proper 11 and time to gel.

Was Kendall the last manager to put more than 3 past Man Utd in a win?
Moyes got a 4-4 draw at Old Trafford didn't he.

David Pearl
504 Posted 05/11/2019 at 12:20:35
And Sheedy rightly gave the kop 2 fingers. He's embarrassed enough without having his past brought up.
Justin Doone
505 Posted 05/11/2019 at 12:33:35
I'm not interested in nice managers. I want good, demanding and ultimately successful managers. Silva was never my choice but whilst he remains in position it's up to him to change things and for us fans to support him and the team.

Having now watched the Gomes injury on TV several times, my view is that Son's tackle was from behind, no where near the ball, having gone through Gomes tripping him up in a poor tackle.

I agree it should be a red card simply because it's a bad tackle from behind. These were outlawed many seasons ago for this very reason. That's the rules without taking the injury into account.

But I also think Aurier (2nd spurs player?) should have received a red card for a reckless challenge. He slid into the challenge in an uncontrolled and miss-timed dangerous way, studs first and didn't get the ball.

Walcott's tackle was a good tackle. He cleanly won the ball and regained possession by changing direction. This meant his foot moved from the top of the ball to behind it. I accept there was minimal contact with a Spurs player who was also challenging for the ball.

If this is viewed as a free-kick to Spurs, I disagree, it is a contact sport, but am willing to accept that - but a yellow card, never.

Mina on Son is 50/50 even after re-watching it. There is contact in the box. But is it Son diving / going to ground easily forcing the contact on Mina's or is Mina's fall / grounding causing the contact?

Handball is clearly handball which should be a yellow card and penalty. Alli's arm was high up and out wide, not a silhouette and a simple decision. The only argument is if it didn't hit his arm. It did.

What ever the outcome and challenges are to these decisions, it needs to be made public for everyone's benefit. We all should be able to understand and learn from it.

No communication and the inconsistent use or otherwise is causing the biggest issue. Please just explain the final decision for everyone's benefit or don't show replays.

Sam Hoare
506 Posted 05/11/2019 at 12:36:42
Maybe it's because I'm not from Liverpool but I don't care greatly about the history and affiliations of a manager. If you told me Steven Gerrard was going to lead us to trophies and the Champions League then I'd be more than happy to take him on.

That said, there is an understandably frustrated fanbase at the moment and getting them onside with the team and manager is crucial moving forwards. Someone like Benitez or Gerrard is likely to get very little patience if not hitting the ground running.

Two managers I'd be looking at are Rose and Hutter in the Bundesliga who are both having very good seasons. Also, the likes of Kovac, Emery and Pochetinno may all be looking for new jobs soon.

Steve Ferns
507 Posted 05/11/2019 at 12:51:30
Sam the second paragraph made more sense. A lot of us despise Liverpool FC almost as much as we love the Blues. The first sign of trouble would see vast sections of the fans turn on the manager. Some would be just waiting for it.

Also, there's no way Gerrard would ever manage us. He feels almost as deeply as a converted red and surely he harbours desire to manage Liverpool and this could harm his chances.

Rogers and Benitez might have considered managing us in the past and maybe again the future. But the same applies. The first sign of trouble would see them get a lot of anger from those who despise Liverpool.

If we replace Silva, then we should get in someone who can unify the fan base. Some superstar manager could, but that's not happening. With Brands in place, the harder part of the job for a rookie (transfers and recruitment) is no longer in their hands. They can focus on coaching and picking the side.

I think someone like Arteta should be the leading candidate / target. Forget forcing Cahill on him, let him pick his own guys. I'd be surprised if Cahill was not one of his choices anyway. But I hope he'd also bring some old mentor with him we've never heard of. Like Moyes with Jimmy Lumsden.

I don't know if Arteta would be a good manager, but he's got the coaching credentials now. The main thing though, is he'd unite the fanbase. He'd have total backing and he would be given all the time that other candidates would not get.

I'd also like Unsworth to be given another shot, but I don't think he'd get the same level of support as Arteta as some blues have already decided he's not good enough.

Paul A Smith
508 Posted 05/11/2019 at 13:05:30
Steve, I like that post. No offence to anyone but local pride matters. Why lower yourself to ask Gerrard when he would say No anyway?

Forget about unifying the fans though, mate. That should have happened when things have gone wrong on the board's account but things have to be on-trend for the fans to be unified and trend is usually wrong or empty.

Ray Roche
509 Posted 05/11/2019 at 13:06:33
IF we bin Silva, whoever replaces him must have a top defensive coach in tow. Every winning and successful team starts with a good defence.

Silva should swallow his pride and employ a guy who can organise defences. Just like Martinez should have done.

David Pearl
510 Posted 05/11/2019 at 13:12:34
Steve, l think l wrote that post of yours about 18 months ago. Arteta would unite the fanbase. He would bring the best out of the squad. My one and only doubt is if he is just too nice. Would Unsworth work well alongside him as his assistant?

Anyway, Saints and Norwich first.

Matthew Williams
511 Posted 05/11/2019 at 13:14:41
Truth be told... it's become a horrible League.
Steve Ferns
512 Posted 05/11/2019 at 13:19:38
David, I don't think Arteta is a nice guy in the way you suggest. Take Klopp. The guy smiles a lot and laughs and looks like a great guy. But it's all an act. Scratch the surface and read about him and you'll see that he's not a nice guy. I'm not saying he's the opposite but he's ruthless and he's clearly not afraid to turn on his best mate.

Arteta always had an edge to him. I think that, like Klopp, he's smiley and pleasant and presents well, but I wouldn't worry about him being too nice. I think he's only nice if you're on side with him.

For me, those kind of guys make the best managers. You want to be on side and so work hard for them, but you're scared of letting them down and falling out of favour. That's how I always perceived a young Mourinho from the biography.

Craig Walker
513 Posted 05/11/2019 at 13:27:35
I despise Liverpool but I'd have Benitez as manager and I think Rodgers would have done well with us too. I want to see Everton as a successful club more than any hatred of Liverpool. They're gonna win the league this season but I'm more concerned about us at present.

I would be very surprised if Benitez couldn't do a better job with this squad of players than Silva is currently managing. He'd cost a lot of money but then we're not exactly getting managers on the cheap with our current rate of managerial recruitment.

We need to start getting winners into the club and instilling a winning mentality. If they played or managed Liverpool in the past then so be it. There's something in that lot's DNA where they never give up.

If they're trailing with minutes to play they'll get back into it and win it. You just know they will. Look at the Barcelona turn around last season. How many times does this happen?

We are the absolute opposite. We can't relax as Evertonians until we're 3 goals up. If we have a 1 goal lead going into the final minutes, I almost expect the other team to equalise and then even go on and win it.

If Benitez could bring any of that luck or self-belief with him that he enjoyed with them then I for one would welcome it. We can't keep trying the unproven up-and-coming manager who will revert to safety first football because the job is too big for them.

Jamie Crowley
514 Posted 05/11/2019 at 13:32:05
Craig no offense, but any talk of Benitez or Gerard is heresy for me.

David above talks about chewing on glass, and if we pursued Gerard I’d join him and throw in a few poison rat pellets to boot.

Tom Bowers
515 Posted 05/11/2019 at 13:34:12
The Klopp situation is so different from the Silva situation.

Klopp fell into a well of riches with a player pool already strong whereas Silva came into a club in turmoil and it's gotten worse as Moshiri hedges his bets.

Moshiri will have lot's of egg on his face if he fires Silva to early as this would be an admittance of a really bad appointment – not to mention the compensation.
We all would like to think that Moshiri has his irons in the fire to bring in a much better man with pedigree should Silva not be able to get things going soon (very unlikely).

Getting back to the Gomes situation, I would say it was very unfortunate and, if it had been caused by a known hard man type player, then one could view it differently. Son has no history of bad challenges and I am sure many challenges like that do not result in bad injuries. The whole thing was unfortunate and hopefully Gomes makes a full recovery and comes back even better for next season.

Craig Walker
516 Posted 05/11/2019 at 13:53:53
Jamie. No offence taken. I appreciate it isn't a popular view but I'm fed up, like we all are of having false dawns and let downs. I'd just like to increase our chances of being competitive and I think Benitez is a better manager than what we've had for a long time.

Personally, I'd chew on broken glass if Moyes were to come back. The guy still likes us but it would be a massive step backwards in my opinion.

We don't need to employ nice guys. I'd have Mourinho but I don't think he'd come anywhere near us. Someone with pedigree is what we should be demanding though.

Raymond Fox
517 Posted 05/11/2019 at 14:03:30
I'd stick with Silva but, if not, I can't be having Arteta, that's another iffy appointment which is the last thing we need if Silva does get his marching orders.

I pinned my colours to the mast a long time ago and Benitez would easily be the best option, experienced in every way, at least he would not be accused of not knowing what he's doing! Although I'm not sure if that would be the case with some on here, they would complain if they won the lottery.

Very bad luck for Gomes and of course the squad; as I said earlier in the thread, we are going to really struggle without the injured players, it's ripped the guts out of the team.

It's getting scary.

Mark Guglielmo
518 Posted 05/11/2019 at 14:07:57
Mancini or Allegri as manager. Arteta or Rooney as assistant.

Though I highly doubt Arteta would leave an assistant coach job at City for an assistant coach job with us.

But I can dream!

Sam Hoare
519 Posted 05/11/2019 at 14:15:36
Steve @512, I think Arteta is a very interesting prospect though it does seem pretty risky to me given he has never managed a team before. Lampard was seen as a risky/sentimental appointment at Chelsea but he had at least worked a fairly successful team in the Championship.

Also Arteta has learned almost exclusively under Guardiola. Would that brand of football work for us? I'm not sure it would with the current crop of players.

I absolutely hear what you say about finding someone who unites the fan but personally I'd also like someone who has proven to a degree that he can do the job. I'm not sure that includes Arteta. Though if we did go for him I'd be excited to see what he could do. I'm not convinced any manager would really unite the fans and I'm pretty sure the first time Arteta lost there'd be plenty saying why did we give it to someone with no experience.

I imagine there's a decent chance Unsworth could get the caretaker role again. Certainly if the results continue to evade us and Brands & Moshiri feel bound to remove Silva before having the right permanent successor lined up. I think you feel like me that Unsworth was removed too soon last time.

Jerome Shields
520 Posted 05/11/2019 at 14:17:54
Sam#502

I too have hoped that Silva would do well and have been impressed with the style of play and what he has tried to do. The problem is I find that the same problems still exist and still need addressed. I also believe that same problems areas still exist within the Club and stifle the required changes.

Maybe the problems are two big or outside the Managers remit, but I am finding that Moshiri, Brands and Silva appear to have bought into a flawed Everton Club philosophy, making it more unlikely that the necessary changes will not materialise. This why I believe changing the Manager alone may not change Everton.

Of course as a keen Observer and independent Everton fan you are able to see that the solution may require thinking outside the box and too a large extent you are right.

For years long Suffering Everton fans have allowed themselves to be deluded by the hipe that togs at Collective heart strings of Evertonians, that Everton is a big club, has the right to occupy the higher echelons of football and will be the best of the rest and one step from success. The People's Club.
Someone needs to come in and tell Evertonians the truth.

Very little has changed over the years. Though different Managers, players, Owners, levels of investment and generations of fans have changed.

The Everton Story perameters of achievement are easily identified. Premier League Survival and nothing else. The whole lot needs a collective shake up and the sooner out side the box solutions are looked at the better.

Keep thinking outside the box Sam, you are right.

David Pearl
521 Posted 05/11/2019 at 14:21:03
Type or paste your comment here. PLEASE capitalise initial letters of proper names and use proper grammar. No txt-speak; all-lowercase posts are likely to be deleted
David Pearl
522 Posted 05/11/2019 at 14:40:40
Never in a million years a kopite in charge if Everton, behave yourselves fss.

Why would Arteta not work? Intelligent person, players would look up to hin. He's learnt from one of the best.

As has been mentioned lets look at Lampard and what he's done at Chelsea over a short period.
He lost his best player. Stuck with players that would of had to have moved on if the transfer ban wasnt in place. Zouma would be with us, maybe Abrahams too. He kept them and they are now playing well and regular. Hes also introduced another 2 or 3 youngsters and they are also excelling. Why is this?? Why can he do what Silva cannot and with just a season experience with Derby. Pep was promoted from within with Barca.
We all know this.

His squad has gelled very quickly. They make it look simple. We make it look hard. They played Man U early in the season and lost but you could see straight away what he was trying to do.

No more excuses l've had enough. Silva will have these two games l recon. But if one of those goes pear shaped thats it. Maybe his first choice midfield would be Gomes and Gbamin but he has had Davies, Delph and Schneiderlin... and Beni waiting in the wings. He has Baines who signed a one year extension and is still a cracking player... and he might not see a single minute. Took him ages to bring in Holgate but fair enough he has his chance now. Up front and in the final third unless its 100 mph high octane and only at home we have nothing.. l'm going back to bed. (Benitez my arse)
(Gerrard... ffs)
Dooda dooda dooda dooda. This is the toffeezone.

Tony Abrahams
523 Posted 05/11/2019 at 14:49:50
Was that when “Bob the pole” scored a belter at O/T, Paul A?

The Netley ended up taking over the reins of “The Sandon” Rob H, and so found themselves back in the league once again.

The Sandon went on to become one of the most successful Sunday league teams, winning the Liverpool Sunday Premier Lge quite a few times, and having a massive rivalry with their arch enemies The Britt, and it was a pleasure to play in a few of those games, even on “compost corner” Were the crowd was sometimes in the high hundreds and there wasn’t enough room to swing a cat! Great days had by all!

Kieran Kinsella
524 Posted 05/11/2019 at 14:51:30
Arteta is just a pretty boy who struts around trying not to mess up his hair. He worked under Guardiola? So what. Paul Clement worked under Ancelotti, Kidd and MacLaren under Ferguson, Berti Vogts under Beckenbauer, Harvey under Kendall, Irvine under Moyes, Boris Johnson under Teresa May etc None of them could hack it in the top job. If Arteta is so great, send him off to Macclesfield for six months and see how he does.
Alan McGuffog
525 Posted 05/11/2019 at 14:53:19
I prefer what Moyes / Bobby/ Big Sam/ Silva did for Everton to what Rodgers is doing at Leicester. Discuss
Dave Abrahams
526 Posted 05/11/2019 at 14:55:45
Paul (503), yes, Paul, Moyes got a 4-4 draw at Old Trafford, exactly one week after getting beat 2-1 at Wembley versus Liverpool in the semi final of the cup, when Liverpool had a very poor goalkeeper, Jones, and we never tested him once in the second half, thanks to Moyes’ tactics that day, he must have been saving any attacking instincts for a league game that meant next to nothing to Everton, although it did to United.

Paul, maybe you’re like me, not a fan of Moyes, but that is just one of the many games that Moyes took a knife to a gunfight, then put the knife away and unfurled a large white flag.

Brent Stephens
527 Posted 05/11/2019 at 15:05:44
Alan #525 - exactly. Who'd want to be in Leicester's position?!
Brian Williams
528 Posted 05/11/2019 at 15:05:50
Would anyone advocate having Donald Trump for manager? That's about as welcome as Gerrard would be ffs.
Incidentally I was told quite recently that the shite are actually still paying Gerrard a wage, and the Klippity will not be renewing his contract. Two plus two?
Dave Abrahams
529 Posted 05/11/2019 at 15:06:35
Rob (498), sorry about your experience when playing The Netley, I think those things happened a few times in the amateur game, very worrying to those on the receiving end.

No Rob I drank in The Netley because it was nice and lively in their, good atmosphere after the match and that was the only time I drank there, after the game, I lived close to town and always drank there.

By the way Ihope your team went on to win the cup.

Kieran Kinsella
530 Posted 05/11/2019 at 15:10:54
Brian 528,

Imagine the post match interviews. "Donald you lost 5-0 to Liverpool, what went wrong?"
"Don't listen to the corrupt commentators. FAKE GOALS. Nobody has had a better result than we had today, probably in the history of Everton football club."

Brian Williams
531 Posted 05/11/2019 at 15:17:34
Well all five goals would have to come in the second half coz if the shite scored in the first that fucker'd have a wall built at half time!
Brian Hennessy
532 Posted 05/11/2019 at 15:18:32
Steve @507 I agree entirely with you that Arteta would be given more time by the fans and as many have said before, our most successful years seem to be when we had past players as managers.

I have been hugely impressed by Tim Cahill every time he speaks and I think it is clear that his aim is to become the Everton manager at some time in the future

On Arteta. Do you think he would leave City straight away if we came calling? Or do you think he will hold fire at City in the hope of replacing Pep when he goes?

Rob Halligan
533 Posted 05/11/2019 at 15:26:04
Dave 529. Sadly we never. The season we played The Netley we got to the final, but lost 2-0. The final was played on Bucks Park, the old Bootle FC's ground.
Dave Abrahams
534 Posted 05/11/2019 at 15:42:47
Rob (533)Bucks Park wasn’t a very good pitch, especially in winter, it didn’t hold the water and was very heavy and muddy, although in your final, which might have been played near the end of the season, it might not have been too bad.

Just spoke to our Tony, he might know two three players from the Netley team you played against, he said there was a few naughty boys in that team and a couple of dozen nutcases who watched them!!

Rob Halligan
535 Posted 05/11/2019 at 15:48:41
Dave, the final was in April, if I remember, and the pitch was quite hard. It was also the year Everton last won a trophy, 1995. Tell your Tony not to mention my name to those he knows!! 😁😁😁
Dave Abrahams
537 Posted 05/11/2019 at 16:11:09
Rob, (535),Rob, Tony said not to worry, a lot of them are grown up now and have found Jesus!!
Dave Abrahams
538 Posted 05/11/2019 at 16:11:09
Rob, (535),Rob, Tony said not to worry, a lot of them are grown up now and have found Jesus!!
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

539 Posted 05/11/2019 at 16:20:09
Dave: "lot of them are grown up now and have found Jesus!!"

Based on what you and Rob report, even now they probably gave JC a shake down!

Kieran Kinsella
540 Posted 05/11/2019 at 16:49:57
Moshiri take note:

In an announcement Chinese side Guangzhou Evergrande, said the former Real Madrid and Juventus defender Fabio Cannavaro had submitted to "deep self-reflection" regarding his performance.
They criticised his "weak ability to rectify mistakes, and insufficiently strict handling of players".
Guangzhou added that Cannavaro had been warned to work harder, improve the standard of his coaching staff, and "raise the players' overall fighting ability to win the Chinese Super League" again.
"If you are going to do it, do your best," Evergrande Group chairman Xu Jiayin told Cannavaro.

Darren Hind
541 Posted 05/11/2019 at 18:52:50
Bobby Mallon 493


Why do you feel you can begin to contest a point when you omit the most important part of it ?

Which bit of this are you having trouble Understanding

Shithousery (cowardice)

"A deliberate attempt to maim or badly damage an opponent, whilst not putting oneself in any danger at all" . .You either deliberately missed that bit out, or it zoomed right over your head.and as usual, to create an argument which fits your answer.

Breaking news. . Your answer doesnt even fit the argument you are creating. Walcott did not even make the tackle he already had it. He tried to drag the ball back and his foot slipped off it coming down on the guys foot. He did not as you (for some bizarre reason claim) go in with your studs up.

I Actually didnt mention sending off in that post. YOU did that.

If you think Walcott went in to deliberately maim or badly damage his opponent, whilst not putting himself in any danger ? There is absolutely nothing I can say to you..

Gavin Johnson
542 Posted 05/11/2019 at 18:54:50
So Son has now had his red card overturned by the football association. What a fuckin Joke!!
Paul A Smith
543 Posted 05/11/2019 at 18:56:30
Dave I definately ain't no Moyes fan but was merely looking at the last time we put 4 past United and won, it was Kendall before Silva.

Tony, the Bob the pole goal (great finish) was in a 3-0 away win mate. Great memory.

Moyes looked after his own reputation in his last few seasons..
Going back to Howard Kendall's terrific side that demolished United 5-0 at goodison, that era was when United were like a newly promoted side compared to us.

Last season we beat them 4-0 and looked like a club up the up and a great opportunity to step over United for at least a season or 2 while they rebuild.

How did we let that slip away? That is most horrible feeling for me in this run of form. They didn't even sign the superstar they usually sign and still we find ourselves behind them.

Arsenal and United were there to be leapfrogged with the quality additions we needed. Sickener.

Dave Abrahams
544 Posted 05/11/2019 at 19:04:26
Paul (543),Fair enough. You are right to worry about the present form at the moment, and there doesn’t really like any end to it, especially with the injuries piling up.
Christy Ring
545 Posted 05/11/2019 at 20:00:35
Paul A Smith, to say you wouldn't even have Kevin Sheedy manage Everton because he's a former red, is a bit much to say the least. Were you not happy to watch a player in our hall of fame, and a huge part of Everton's success, one of our best ever players, and who also managed our youth team, just because he played a couple of games for the redshite, even though he started his career at Preston, him kissing the Everton, meant nothing to you?
The horrific injury to Gomes, was all we remember from the Spurs game, but the tactics and performance in the first hour was shocking, and Silva has to go. I'd love to see Arteta offered the job, I know he lacks experience, but after working under Guardiola and Wenger, he'd be a breath of fresh air, as Steve said I think underneath he's a hard nut.
Mark Guglielmo
546 Posted 05/11/2019 at 20:06:42
Christy @545, I've been banging the Arteta drum for a bit myself, but I also have a lot more patience than most IMO, even with Silva (who I'm not a fan of).

What do you think the reaction would be if Arteta (or honestly any other manager) came in, and we remained in a relegation battle deep into February? How much patience would supporters have then?

Bobby Mallon
547 Posted 05/11/2019 at 20:45:05
Give me Sheedy any day of the week.
Paul A Smith
548 Posted 05/11/2019 at 20:45:57
Christy, the Kevin Sheedy shout was a bit tongue in cheek mate. A bit of a spin or comparison on how much I'd resent the idea of Gerrard. It's hard to think of Sheedy as a former red, in all fairness.

I don't agree on the Spurs tactics though. Theirs were as cautious as ours but we looked far more likely to make the breakthrough if anyone and shut them out easily in the first half...

Their goal came when we were on top and we played a hand in it.

Bobby Mallon
549 Posted 05/11/2019 at 20:49:31
Darren Hind, I just think Son didn't try to maim or hurt Gomes.
Rob Marsh
550 Posted 05/11/2019 at 21:19:45
John Reynolds # 483

Yes extremely pedantic, Song is a Korean name and very close to Son, a very easy mistake and Gomez vs Gomes? Does it really matter, how many players with the name Gomes/Gomez do we have in the team?

Andre? Do you know him personally? Putting aside his Injury, he's yet to earn his keep and has under perfomed as badly as anyone in that team, before his injury he could have done me the courtesy of putting in consistant performances week in and week out and fully earning my money.

I doubt very much that it's the pronounciation of the players names involved that has gotten your ire, the answer to that is in your final sentence.

Just speak your mind instead of hiding behind petty admonishments.

Christy Ring
551 Posted 05/11/2019 at 21:22:04
Paul A Smith I’m probably a bit too sensitive, Sheedy a hero of mine, As for Steve GBH I wouldn’t let him into Goodison
Paul A Smith
552 Posted 05/11/2019 at 22:12:36
Not a problem Christy, nothing wrong defending a legend. I loved seeing Tricky Trev on the pitch on sunday at Half Time.

Due to the events of the game it has probably been forgotten by a lot of people which is understandable.

I was virtually a junior when he played for Everton but he was the first player I ever admired.

Gavin Johnson
553 Posted 05/11/2019 at 22:30:10
If we looked at former players I think Tim Cahill could be an interesting option. Yes, Arteta has more coaching experience but I've been really impressed in what I've heard from Cahill in his BBC work. For the lack of experience he's got one thing over the likes of Arteta and Ferguson and that's a strong character. Lampard and Gerrard and doing okay so while giving him the job might seem a stretch, those two have shown that it can be done. Cahill wouldn't be my first, or even third choice as a Silva replacement. I'd just say that he seems to have the innate attributes to be a great coach/manager. It's a shame we couldn't give him Dunc's job.
Jerome Shields
554 Posted 05/11/2019 at 22:57:53
Silva in style of play and performance some of the time has brought Everton up a level, but is dogged by inconsistency and he is prepared to accept mediocrity in players performance and attitude, which means that any progress is questionable.

I personally think that Brands and Moshiri think that Silva may be able within the next two years of his contract bring Everton to a certain level. They are unlikely to want to bring in another Manager at this stage, to start all over again. They are more likely next year as Silvas contract ends to be looking for a Manager to bring Everton to the next level, who has proven ability ie. that has challenged in competitions at all levels.

Christy Ring
555 Posted 05/11/2019 at 23:31:28
Jerome, the next couple of results will decide his future – that's the pressure of the modern game.
Rob Marsh
556 Posted 05/11/2019 at 23:38:23
Christy Ring # 555

Southampton may well be his final one. They're in the bottom three and leaking goals, the worst defence in the prem.

Another performance like the Brighton or the Bournemouth one, surely this will leave the top brass with a decision to make.

Mark Guglielmo
557 Posted 05/11/2019 at 23:39:50
Christy @555, I said so in much greater detail in another thread (heck, maybe it was this one, lol), but IMO, there is only one thing Moshiri cares about: getting a ROI and leaving the Bramley-Moor Dock Stadium behind as his legacy.

I may or may not be oversimplifying things, but as a billionaire, I am fairly certain that business comes before any love of football. Brands is I'm sure a different story, but well, it ain't his money.

Whether or not these likely situations involve keeping, or sacking, Silva, remains to be seen, but like Jerome above you, I wouldn't be that surprised if Silva easily gets the rest of this year, and possibly even next. Don't forget that Moshiri has already paid out more than £25m in manager buyouts. Rich people don't like losing money, no matter how much you or I think that's pittance compared to his overall wealth.

Rob Marsh
558 Posted 05/11/2019 at 00:03:31
Mark # 557

I can see your reasoning and agree with your understanding of these uber wealthy business types, but should we suffer defeat at Southampton and then taking into consideration the December fixture list, the axe I suspect may fall.

As wealthy as he is there's also a PR aspect to his position and I doubt he would want to alienate the fan base too much.

If that month goes against us things could become both worrying and very embarrassing for us come the new year.

Joe Corgan
559 Posted 06/11/2019 at 00:21:00
Gavin 553: Unfortunately Cahill doesn’t have the necessary UEFA Pro licence.

I believe he’s just started doing his ‘A’ licence at Finch Farm.

Mark Guglielmo
560 Posted 06/11/2019 at 00:38:12
Rob @558, no doubt. Excellent observation around the "optics" of it all. btw, that's the single-most annoying business term of the last decade lol

What will those optics look like if he gets the sack, is replaced by [whomever], and we're still in a relegation battle, only this time in February. Uh oh.

Food for thought: the table is TERRIBLE this year, and could actually be the saving grace for the entire season (depending on what one's personal tolerance levels are).

Southampton: projects out to 28 pts.
Norwich: projects out to 24 pts.
Watford: projects out to 17 pts. Ooof

That "magic 38 pts" may never even be close to mattering.

Derek Thomas
561 Posted 06/11/2019 at 00:47:09
I'm of the personal opinion that it's sooner the better for Silva. But also see that there are no suitable replacements ready in the wings.

It's an each-way bet we and him will just manage to stagger over the line in May.

My pick tomorrow or in May would be Bielsa, but he might put himself out of contention by getting Leeds promoted.

Should it all turn to an even bigger bowl of custard that it is now in December. I don't see Arteta (with or without Cahill, not arsed either way) jumping ship and leaving Pep in the lurch at Christmas and I'm not sure I'd want him if he did.

A tsunami of custard not withstanding, it's a case of Churchill's KBO, keep buggering on until May.

Jerome Shields
562 Posted 06/11/2019 at 05:27:16
Christy #555,

Yes, of course you are right.

But I still think that Brands and Moshiri will still see getting rid of Silva as going back to square one, which might mean that any type of result in the next games will mean Silva will hold on.

The performance against Tottenham wasn't as bad as it could have been and a draw away from home against Southampton is possible. Norwich at home is also doable. Leicester City away from home will show whether Silva has the support of Finch Farm, who normally help a dead man walking on his way. Silva does seem to have the support of the players at this stage.

Then it's Liverpool away, Chelsea home and Man Utd away which could prove problematic in December.

I do see why there is wild speculation about a change of Manager, but a suitable candidate is not really available and no-one will be clamouring for the job.
Unless there is a relegation danger, Silva will stay. It is clear to Silva and sundry that away performances regarding results have to improve.

Silva will have to decide whether he is in the wars or a battle, and get his act together. It ain't going to be pretty. One thing that I am sure of is that Everton's lazy bugger of a first-team squad have the potential to raise their game just enough to get through.

The start of the season was wasted and how anyone at Everton got it into their heads that preparation was in anyway up to it, is beyond me.

Gavin Johnson
564 Posted 06/11/2019 at 07:07:58
Joe #559

I didn't know he was doing his badges with us. Maybe he will get Dunc's role in the future after all.

Rob Marsh
565 Posted 06/11/2019 at 23:06:07
Mark # 560

I would expect Southampton to do better than 28pts, they're not a bad outfit when they're rolling.

In general I'd take any projections with a pinch of salt, It's all about December the relegation picture will come into sharp focus in the new year and we'll know what's what.

There can be no complacency!

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