'Project Big Picture' — Manchester United and Liverpool driving radical overhaul of Premier League power structureThe Telegraph and given public backing by EFL chairman, Rick Parry.
Manchester United and Liverpool are the driving forces behind proposals to engineer the biggest changes to English football in a generation and an extraordinary overhaul of the Premier League's democracy.
Amid the onset of the Covid-19 pandemic, which is triggering a financial crisis in football, particularly in the lower reaches of the English professional football pyramid, the two clubs have been working with Parry on what they have dubbed “Project Big Picture”, one that that will reshape the finances of the game.
Under their proposals, the Premier League, the most lucrative sports league in the world, would see a reduction to 18 teams, with automatic promotion from the Championship for two clubs each season and the next three best-placed teams playing off with the 16th-place Premier League club to determine which gets a place in the top flight.
The League Cup and Community Shield would be scrapped allowing for greater participation of England's top clubs in an expanded Uefa Champions League. The distribution of broadcast revenue would be altered that one portion is based on performance in the league on a rolling three-year basis.
£250m would be paid to the EFL for distribution among its member clubs immediately to cope with the fall-out from the coronavirus shutdown and absence of match-going fans. Going forward after that, the current system of parachute payments to clubs dropping out of the top division would be scrapped, with 25% of the Premier League's TV income distributed among clubs across the second to fourth tiers instead.
In exchange for these measures designed to safeguard the future of the domestic game, the Premier League's nine longest-serving clubs — the so-called "big six" plus Everton, West Ham and Southampton — would get greater voting power, with a majority of six required for certain decisions, including, for example, the power to approve or veto takeover bids for clubs.
The Premier League itself has come out against the proposals, saying that while it supported, “a wide-ranging discussion on the future of the game, including its competition structures, calendar and overall financing ... in the Premier League's view, a number of the individual proposals in the plan published today could have a damaging impact on the whole game and we are disappointed to see that Rick Parry, Chair of the EFL, has given his on-the-record support.”
For his part, Parry told The Telegraph: “What do we do? Leave it exactly as it is and allow the smaller clubs to wither? Or do we do something about it? And you can't do something about it without something changing.”
- Radical plans a clever, cynical power grab at time of panic — Matt Dickinson (Times)
- Premier League 'Project Big Picture' is a brazen power grab, a hostile takeover spun as a rescue package — Jason Burt (Telegraph)
- Power grab led by Manchester United and Liverpool would be blocked by FA's ‘golden share' — The Times
- Project Big Picture 'a power grab so despicably greedy even its name is a lie' — Daniel Storey (Optus)
- Project Big Picture is nothing but a disgusting Big Six power grab — Martin Samuel (Mail)
Read the full article at The Telegraph
Reader Comments (315)
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1 Posted 11/10/2020 at 14:36:25
2 Posted 11/10/2020 at 14:40:37
It does seem different from the usual sabre-rattling – and Everton are one of the Big Nine long-term Premier League stakeholders... and does provide a huge lifeline to the EFL.
3 Posted 11/10/2020 at 14:43:15
To me, it smacks of self-interest for the usual suspects.
4 Posted 11/10/2020 at 15:07:15
Fewer league games will result in higher prices for the fans both at the stadium and via TV subscription, this all coming at a time when belts will have to be tightened due to the impact of the pandemic - as someone (Churchill?) once said never let a crisis go to waste. FSG and Manchester United are being opportunistic to the nth degree, using the 'saving' of English Football League clubs as a smokescreen for their power grab.
5 Posted 11/10/2020 at 15:17:04
6 eh? Wonder why? Strange that.
To me the whole thing stinks to high heaven.
6 Posted 11/10/2020 at 15:17:46
"We have seen media reports today regarding a plan to restructure football in this country.
"English football is the worlds most watched, and has a vibrant, dynamic and competitive league structure that drives interest around the globe. To maintain this position, it is important that we all work together.
"Both the Premier League and The FA support a wide-ranging discussion on the future of the game, including its competition structures, calendar and overall financing particularly in light of the effects of COVID-19.
"Football has many stakeholders, therefore this work should be carried out through the proper channels enabling all clubs and stakeholders the opportunity to contribute.
"In the Premier Leagues view, a number of the individual proposals in the plan published today could have a damaging impact on the whole game and we are disappointed to see that Rick Parry, Chair of the EFL, has given his on-the-record support.
"The Premier League has been working in good faith with its clubs and the EFL to seek a resolution to the requirement for COVID-19 rescue funding. This work will continue."
7 Posted 11/10/2020 at 15:36:21
Love that part “Liverpool and Man Utd are prepared to debate this with other clubs,” Who the fuck are they?
8 Posted 11/10/2020 at 15:40:24
9 Posted 11/10/2020 at 15:47:24
The Premier League is fantastic. Any consolidation of power or money towards the top teams is an awful idea. And I agree with a few of the posters - do not Americanize the game. We have plenty of that over here.
It's not needed in English soccer. Its joy in many respects is watching the smaller clubs survive and stay up. Not making super teams that the masses “root” for – and those masses are generally bandwagon jumping bafoons in an honest moment.
10 Posted 11/10/2020 at 16:01:57
11 Posted 11/10/2020 at 16:10:32
Aston Villa have spent more seasons in the Premier League than West ham Utd and Southampton – as have Newcastle. One of the so-called big 6 – Spurs... don't make me laugh.
12 Posted 11/10/2020 at 16:13:55
It'd be nice to think that the EPL clubs will approve the elements that are beneficial to the game & give short shrift to those proposals that are a clear grabbing of power & money. However, with football club owners, almost anything is possible – not necessarily to the betterment of the beautiful game.
13 Posted 11/10/2020 at 16:17:11
Now they appear to be 'Knights in shining armour' with a plan to rescue the Football League clubs, I view this as a 'Wolf in Sheep's Clothing' situation. It's quite likely that this will be my final season, because this is not the game I fell in love with as a boy.
14 Posted 11/10/2020 at 16:25:28
This is purely and simply about getting more money for the top clubs – and make no mistake we are not part of that.
Liverpool have been campaigning for years to get the overseas broadcast revenue (currently split equally amongst the clubs) split based on overseas popularity - ie, them and Man Utd taking the lion's share.
There is no benevolence in this proposal, and there is nothing in there for ordinary fans. I would hope that Everton would not vote for this. It will be the final nail in the coffin for top-flight football having any semblance of a level playing field.
15 Posted 11/10/2020 at 16:26:09
This whole idea is making a number of Premier League teams to be able to act like an elected government, where they make decisions that every other club has to follow. Is that the shadow minister in the background, Mr Sky Sports?
16 Posted 11/10/2020 at 16:29:12
17 Posted 11/10/2020 at 16:31:15
Football sold its soul with the advent of the Premier League and this ‘wonderful' idea takes the biscuit in terms of crass arrogance and blind profiteering. It reveals the grasping "couldn't give a fuck" nature of club owners at Liverpool and Man Utd who are clearly panicking about their lost revenue from corporate sponsors and many endorsements. Who the fuck do they think they are?
18 Posted 11/10/2020 at 16:36:08
19 Posted 11/10/2020 at 16:39:38
That is its total purpose. "For the few, not the many" to paraphrase a certain slogan.
Now, after a long period of the increasing wealth of the game being concentrated in that league and increasingly in the hands of a few ‘elite' clubs, it is surely unsurprising that the largest of the large clubs are attempting to grasp total control of that wealth in a smaller Premier League.
The few are getting fewer... and the many are getting bigger. That is the logical progression of the underpinning idea.
20 Posted 11/10/2020 at 17:06:11
I agree completely, Liverpool and Man Utd are looking for a higher percentage of the revenue.
21 Posted 11/10/2020 at 17:10:09
22 Posted 11/10/2020 at 17:21:46
This means, for example, if it was in effect, it could stop the takeover a club like Newcastle United or Crystal Palace. Who do these people think they are??? Trying to tell billionaires what they can and can't do if they are trying to put another club on the same financial position as the top 6. Talk about shitting on your competitors.
23 Posted 11/10/2020 at 18:39:19
However what they are offering amounts to nothing if they allow the top six clubs in this proposal the right to change anything without sanction or check/balance.
It's morally repugnant to reduce competition to the point where the teams at the top benefit the most.
Reduce games to 34 fixtures so it can help teams in Europe and the national team?! What a load of bollocks.
You want reduced competition to allow your squads to stay fit, suffer less from fatigue, so you stay at the top of the tree in perpetuity.
Football in its essence is about fatigue, the grind and finding ways to win amongst the most competitive league possible.
These proposals are about cementing the teams currently at the top, meaning they'd never have to worry about relegation or financial hardship again.
We all know it's been coming for sometime – Covid-19 has just accelerated the process – and to do it when so many people are feeling the pinch is, well, disgusting.
24 Posted 11/10/2020 at 18:53:45
What next? Regional leagues like they have in the States leading to a Super Bowl type final game?
Or the stupid system they have in baseball, I suppose the rest of the country's fans should feel honoured that the yank owners of Liverpool and Man Utd are willing to discuss the proposal with them.
A better idea would be for the rest of the football clubs to refuse point blank to play them. Let's see how long the proposal would last.
What would the FA do then?
25 Posted 11/10/2020 at 19:22:42
I've just finished listening to the England game, and Dave has beaten me to the point. I can envisage a time when clubs will hold franchises, and will negotiate with different cities in which to ply their trade.
Another thing I can see, is there being a nominated penalty taker, who will add his contribution (successful or not), and will return to the bench awaiting his next opportunity which will inevitably arrive quickly, because of the introduction of a non-contact approach and the current ball-to-hand fiasco.
I know that there are one or two who will accuse me of living in the past, and I accept that, but, at the age of 82, what a past I've enjoyed. Your cousin Tommy playing a large part in it.
26 Posted 11/10/2020 at 19:26:07
27 Posted 11/10/2020 at 19:33:15
I've been saying for a while now, what exactly have Spurs done to warrant being called one of the so-called big six? So they've played in the Champions League for a few seasons, big deal, so have Newcastle, whilst Villa have actually won the European Cup.
The last time Spurs won the league was 60 years ago, and only anyone probably 70 years old or older will remember that. Just let that sink in for a bit...
Only anyone over 70 years old will probably remember Spurs last winning the league!!
So, can someone please explain to me why Spurs are classed as one of the so-called big six, cos I'm fucked if I know?
28 Posted 11/10/2020 at 19:33:50
A European super league will not include us, think about it.
Bayern, Barca, Madrid, Juve, Inter and AC Milan, plus a host of French, Portuguese, Belgian and other European clubs etc would be needed to keep the interest Europe wide.
Other leagues governing bodies would also have to agree to its inception. I can though see a breakaway league taking place but fans will not swallow that one.
29 Posted 11/10/2020 at 19:35:45
30 Posted 11/10/2020 at 19:40:34
A parallel to the concept of "meritocracy" in society as it was originally defined – a number of people getting to the highest levels on their own merits and then pulling up the drawbridge to allow nobody else in. A metaphor for our times.
31 Posted 11/10/2020 at 19:41:18
Throw in the 8% of the gate must go to away fans who will get subsidized transport and finally £20 match tickets, just to show us they care about us supporters... Finally!
32 Posted 11/10/2020 at 19:41:28
And what about proxy shareholders and sleeping partners? I suspect that, if EFC go along with this, it will be because they don't want to be dragged into problems regarding Usmanov's input to the club.
Unaccountable dictatorships seem to be popular now amongst the mega rich. Football is following suit. It will happen because the lower leagues are dying. Don Corleone would approve.
33 Posted 11/10/2020 at 19:42:26
The Americans don't understand the key point, the profit sharing and competition are the fundamentals that fuel a bit of unpredictability that makes the Premier League the product it is. They just don't get it.
Clubs should beware of false promises from these wolves of Wall Street.
34 Posted 11/10/2020 at 19:42:31
Over here, National and foreign TV revenue is shared equally among all clubs regardless of performance. Each team keeps its local revenue (tickets, concessions, local tv rights in applicable cases).
Each club gets one vote on league matters. There is nothing in American sports where the “big” clubs get more revenue or can make policy without a majority vote of a leagues clubs.
There is plenty of things in American sports to find fault with if you must but this type of plan is not one of them.
35 Posted 11/10/2020 at 19:47:33
36 Posted 11/10/2020 at 19:48:55
37 Posted 11/10/2020 at 19:58:23
38 Posted 11/10/2020 at 20:03:59
39 Posted 11/10/2020 at 20:04:37
40 Posted 11/10/2020 at 20:10:23
You also have to factor in Russia and some of its neighbouring states, if it's money-driven, then they have more than their fair share of oligarchs.
41 Posted 11/10/2020 at 20:14:01
It's a blatant power grab that's being presented now because they know many EFL clubs are desperate for money.
Until shortly before the advent of the Premier League, football was much fairer and structured so smaller clubs benefited, financially, from playing big clubs away from home in that they got 25% of League gate receipts and 33% in the earlier rounds of the FA Cup
Now, a much bigger proportion of the cash comes from the likes of Sky and the so-called 'big clubs' have always been trying to grab a larger slice of that.
I'm not in the least surprised that these proposals have been floated by two clubs which are virtually no more than American franchises and whose owners have little, or no, concept of the strong community identity most of our clubs have.
We can't do it in our home competitions so, hey, let's try it on the Brits and wrap it up as helping the EFL clubs.
Just do one!
42 Posted 11/10/2020 at 20:17:39
43 Posted 11/10/2020 at 20:23:12
It's a great time for these proposals to be put forward though, because never before have the lower league clubs, been so desperate for money.
A grant for the poor, and a gift for the very affluent English FA.
44 Posted 11/10/2020 at 20:35:30
45 Posted 11/10/2020 at 20:39:23
46 Posted 11/10/2020 at 20:42:06
47 Posted 11/10/2020 at 20:46:49
It is worrying that the Americans in charge at Mordor and Old Trafford (and that slime ball Parry) think it's acceptable to behave in this way. The EFL monies suggestion is trying to sugar-coat what is in effect a power grab and neuter both competition and democracy within the Premier League.
As Bill Watson rightly states, the funding agreements in place prior to the Premier League were inherently more equitable than they are now and this led to greater competitiveness with regards to teams competing for and winning titles. The governance of football needs serious intervention by the state to safeguard local communities' football clubs. Whether you are Everton or Exeter, all clubs matter to their fans, towns and cities, they are vital historical and cultural institutions that provide people with a sense of identity.
Having said all the above, should the worse come to pass, I hope the RS decamp to the Home Counties and become the Buckinghamshire Red Sox (or Shite).
48 Posted 11/10/2020 at 21:01:15
Clubs are so desperate that its likely theyll take the bait, its a rotten, scumbag approach.
Whats hilarious is that United are slipping down the pole, towards mediocrity apace. They are hardly the virtue of elite, neither are the one title in thirty years showers.
They are just the best commercial operators
49 Posted 11/10/2020 at 21:05:28
50 Posted 11/10/2020 at 21:05:46
Any proper football fan can see this proposal / ultimatum is a mixture of shush money handouts to the 72 clubs, most of which live hand to mouth, and a £100M backhander to the FA. They should be ashamed of themselves but they won't be. Absolutely classless club... and Man Utd are along for the ride now they're a rapidly fading force / farce.
I've got an idea: let's have an 18-team Premier League where Man Utd and them can fuck off to their European League and we never see either again. They are a total disgrace but we all knew that anyway.
52 Posted 11/10/2020 at 21:08:16
53 Posted 11/10/2020 at 21:31:25
Your situation is a lot different as your cities already have a team. We have many large cities without professional sports teams and they would pay the teams a lot money (help finance a stadium and tax breaks) for them to move.
54 Posted 11/10/2020 at 21:34:57
Im not against this just because its initiated by Liverpool. If any of the ‘big six had come up with this I would be diametrically opposed.
55 Posted 11/10/2020 at 21:35:09
56 Posted 11/10/2020 at 21:36:09
◾ The Premier League cut from 20 to 18 clubs, with the Championship, League One and League Two each retaining 24 teams.
◾ The bottom two teams in the Premier League relegated automatically with the 16th-placed team joining the Championship play-offs.
◾ The League Cup and Community Shield abolished.
◾ Parachute payments scrapped.
◾ A £250m rescue fund made immediately available to the EFL
◾ £100m paid to the FA to make up for lost revenue.
◾ Nine clubs given 'special voting rights' on certain issues, based on their extended runs in the Premier League.
57 Posted 11/10/2020 at 21:45:11
58 Posted 11/10/2020 at 21:49:04
59 Posted 11/10/2020 at 21:51:12
60 Posted 11/10/2020 at 21:58:30
You forgot the bit where 2 clubs get booted out of the league for no fair reason. Also one fewer competition leaving one less route to Europe for the likes of us, Southampton, Leicester et al.
I'm with so many on here and think it would be the final nail in the coffin of English football. I can't however see it getting off the ground; with the current one-club, one-vote system, who out of the bottom 7-8 teams is going to vote to cut the league by 2 teams? It'll be like the proverbial turkeys voting for Christmas.
61 Posted 11/10/2020 at 21:59:42
What, like the other lot across the park moving to Norway?! No fjord is deep enough.
62 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:00:17
Kenny  this scheme was first mooted in the late 90s and my reaction was exactly like your own, let them join a European Super League, thus giving us our game back, on the stipulation that there will be no readmission to any of the English Leagues. It could no doubt have led to an exodus of players, but would have, in my opinion, prevented ridiculous transfer fees and equally ridiculous wages, enabling clubs to charge cheaper admission prices. I appreciate the fact that it is highly unlikely to happen but I can dream, can't I?
63 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:00:38
64 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:03:47
Just fuck right off you self serving, incestuous, racketeering scum
“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”
― George Orwell, Animal Farm
65 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:05:41
With regards to the NFL, it was founded 100 years ago with teams in some small Midwestern towns nobody ever heard of, like Decatur and Rock Island in Illinois, Hammond and Muncie in Indiana, and Racine Wisconsin. Most disappeared with a few years. But yes, two of those franchises survive -- the Chicago Bears (founded as the Decatur Staleys) and the Arizona Cardinals (formerly the Chicago and St. Louis Cardinals).
66 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:07:10
67 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:12:11
68 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:12:12
69 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:14:27
70 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:14:51
Years ago, the self-proclaimed big six (originally big 4) had plans for a super league – thing is, it was a different group of 4, which then became 6 to include the original 4.
It should never be the richest clubs dictating the rest of the league because they're only in that position for a period of time and trying to protect their own.
Reducing the Premier League to 18 means the gift payment of £250m is actually an inducement so the remaining 18 teams get a bigger share of the TV money in future seasons. It also means the lower divisions get less per team.
Give the lower divisions the money without the clause. Most Premier League teams can absorb the payout.
71 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:18:26
But how can such a system be democratic, and what if any of these two got relegated or had consistent seasons in the basement of the EPL?
Until the motive and benefits to EPL, EFL etc, then I cant see how this can be taken seriously.
72 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:22:50
Hardly a fortune by today's standards.
73 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:23:48
I'm sure if their American owners thought they'd get away with it they would.
74 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:25:14
They'd vote to change the relegation criteria.
75 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:26:14
76 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:26:36
Thanks for your detailed response with regards to the NFL. Whilst the Glazers might be well respected in the US they aren't particularly respected at the other end of the East Lancashire Road by Man U fans having managed to plunge the club into debt that helped lever the purchase such is the universal love for them they even managed to create a new football team FC United formed by furious fans of the club.
Over the road, the tenure of Gillette and Hicks resulted in an insurrection from the Kopites leading to their departure. Their successors Fenway Sports Group have been more respectful and successful; however, there have been U-turns over season ticket prices, furlough schemes... and this latest wizard idea.
Neither Randy Lerner at Villa nor Stan Kronke at Arsenal were or are loved by the respective supporters of either club, so it's not exactly a litany of success by US owners of our football clubs. No offence is intended but let's be honest: these US owners – particularly at Liverpool and Man Utd –view the clubs as cash cows and have little understanding of the culture or history of football in the UK.
Their latest ruse in conjunction with the snake that is Rick Parry is open contempt for all other clubs in the football pyramid.
77 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:30:33
- George Orwell, Animal Farm.
"Just fuck right off you self serving, incestuous, racketeering scum".
- Barry Rathbone, ToffeeWeb.
Both attributable to Barry, in fact - #64.
Good man, Barry. Your quote will live long in the memory and oft be repeated (Rathbone not Orwell).
78 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:39:22
A lot of American sport televised is advert driven, hence 4 quarters, time outs etc...
It brings in a lot of revenue for the clubs, the USA also does not have the lower league structures football has, maybe the college system is the nearest they have, I don't really know as I don't like Grid iron, basketball or Baseball.
All I do know is that, if the lower leagues are decimated, the soul of the game will be lost forever and football will be just another sterile product.
79 Posted 11/10/2020 at 22:56:16
If it becomes a closed franchise system, it loses its charm. Yes, it already has to some degree, or did until Leicester did the unthinkable. But this would be the second-last nail in the coffin of liberte, egalite, fraternite. I don't like it one bit, even if it benefits Everton.
80 Posted 11/10/2020 at 23:03:39
Cartels are an evil and if these scheming blaggards were serious about curing the ills of footy a 10% levy on transfer fees and 5% off the TV money put into a pot to be shared between lower league clubs would bring terrific benefits.
Transfer fees wouldn't be so ludicrous and extra money in the lower divisions would provide better facilities and coaching helping to regenerate British talent.
Of course what happens further down the food chain is of no concern to the scurrilous rogues behind this tawdry idea.
Julian, I agree.
81 Posted 11/10/2020 at 23:05:10
82 Posted 11/10/2020 at 23:09:12
The MLB and MLS have minor leagues where a number of developmental players get sent by parent clubs (certainly in baseball, less so in MLS). The NBA, NHL and NFL to my knowledge don't.
83 Posted 11/10/2020 at 23:10:53
2 lots of American owners sitting around a table discussing how they can make vast profits off the back of a game the don't understand or give a flying fuck about.
Let's face it, if Netball yielded massive profits, they would bin footy in a heartbeat and move over to that sport.
84 Posted 11/10/2020 at 23:19:01
I appreciate Tommy reference. Would you believe he used to come over and visit us here in Ireland, when I was a chap, years after he retired? We played football games on the green in front of our house and, even then, his skill with his left foot was unbelievable, fond memories.
85 Posted 11/10/2020 at 23:34:40
I agree with your comment: ‘If it gathers momentum, I fear and suspect that Everton will cling onto its coat tails.‘ – Exactly what we did under Carter to initiate the Premier League in the belief we were part of the Big Five.
Money flooded into the Premier League. The lower leagues were cut adrift. Mercenaries (players and their agents) became millionaires.
Chelsea and Man City replaced Everton and Spurs at the Top Table. Macclesfield Town went bust, owing £500k, on the same day Gareth Bale moved to Spurs for £600k per fucking week – and he's injured.
If we support this shit, I'll cancel my season ticket of 34 years standing and fuck the new stadium.
86 Posted 11/10/2020 at 00:19:22
Middling teams in the Premier League would also spend sparingly in case they got relegated. Where is the competition then? It stinks – and anything that stinks should be flushed to you know where. Yanks, Man Utd and Liverpool, should be ashamed of themselves. One can only hope that their own supporters will tell them where to stick this plan and just share some of the TV monies with the EFL as that is what morally should happen.
Greed, greed, greed... I fuckin' hate it. This plan should be renamed immediately as Keep the Rich Rich and the Poor Poor.
87 Posted 12/10/2020 at 00:38:35
88 Posted 12/10/2020 at 00:44:42
"Take the proposed new superpowers, the nine longest-serving clubs in the Premier League, whose votes would count for more than the rest. That's the big six, plus Everton, Southampton and West Ham.
Those nine clubs are to be afforded ‘long-term shareholder status', would have unprecedented power, even able to veto new owners at other Premier League clubs, decide on the chief executive and amend rules and regulations. And maybe the six think the three will be flattered to be included.
Depends whether they can handle basic arithmetic. For what would be needed for vetoes and changes to processes is a two-thirds majority of long-term shareholders.
Ooh, what's two-thirds of nine? Wouldn't be six by any chance, would it? Everton, Southampton and West Ham wouldn't be privileged members. They would be ridiculous patsies, carved up and cynically outvoted at every turn."
And he adds:
"Aston Villa 7 Liverpool 2. Manchester United 1 Tottenham 6. That's the waking nightmare, and it always has been. That they won't be good enough to sustain their status. That, like AC Milan in Italy, they will slip from relevance. So they want it all: the money and the control. They want to make the rules, shape the game, decide who gets what, who gets in."
89 Posted 12/10/2020 at 00:49:18
90 Posted 12/10/2020 at 00:54:14
How about all teams in European competitions do not play in the League Cup but the League Cup retain a place in the following season's competition, a new name on the cup every year.
The top 3 go into the Champions League, the EFL Cup winner and FA Cup winner play off for the 4th Champions League place, that can replace the charity shield.
Irrespective of the FA Cup draw, the lowest-ranked team has home advantage and all gate receipts and TV money. No replay or extra time – straight to penalties. League One and Two go to regional divisions.
Some rambling thoughts but a starter for 10.
Finally abolish transfers, an annual draft, no agents fees and a squad salary cap. This last one would spread the quality players across all teams. No multimillion-pound benches of players. All overseas friendlies prohibited (I can't see that one happening).
91 Posted 12/10/2020 at 01:00:29
Man Utd - 13
Chelsea - 5
Man City - 4
Arsenal - 3
Blackburn - 1
Leicester - 1
Liverpool - 1
Over the same period, the following teams have been Superbowl Champions:
Patriots - 6
Broncos - 3
Cowboys - 3
Ravens - 2
Steelers - 2
Redskins - 1
49r's - 1
Packers - 1
Rams - 1
Colts - 1
Giants - 1
Seahawks - 1
Eagles - 1
Chiefs - 1
Saints - 1
I was born in Ormskirk in 1947, watched my first Everton game when I was 12 and have been a fan ever since. I moved to the USA in 1982 and got my football fix from the BBC World Service on short wave radio until the internet came along. I listened to the '95 FA Cup Final with a wire antenna strung up across the living room.
During that time, I watched Hockey and American football but, once the Premier League was televised over here, I stopped watching American sports. But the one thing that I admire about them is that they don't allow a tiny number of very rich teams to dominate. All Premier League TV revenue should be equally shared among the 20 teams instead of this crazy scheme that makes the rich get richer.
92 Posted 12/10/2020 at 01:18:16
It is beyond belief that Liverpool and Man Utd feel that they already have the divine right to speak for the entire English Football System. Liverpool and Man Utd become more arrogant by the minute. If change is needed, why should they decide to initiate such a move? More than that, I despise the fact that the condescending red twerps give Everton a nice pat on the head. No real Evertonian ever wants the slimey support of Liverpool FC.
93 Posted 12/10/2020 at 01:38:11
94 Posted 12/10/2020 at 02:06:21
95 Posted 12/10/2020 at 02:35:23
96 Posted 12/10/2020 at 02:41:06
John McFarlane Snr on this thread speaks for me on how increasingly difficult it's getting to love the Premier League.
This "initiative" embodies what is gruesome.
That we learn from Al (#91) how the American footy league currently works is enlightening, featuring numerous winners beyond the star teams.
It used to be like that here, and admirably so. Teams like Ipswich, Swindon, QPR, Forest, Villa and Leicester won major trophies, despite the efforts of the mega-rich including us, decades ago admittedly, to thwart them.
Football was way more interesting back then.
Or am I just getting old?
97 Posted 12/10/2020 at 03:08:07
I know I should be a bigger person, look at the whole impact etc, but I've this devilish desire to see a little bit of anarchy and watch the football world burn.
98 Posted 12/10/2020 at 04:35:11
Everton are included in the group of 9 with special rights but that is totally meaningless as six of those 9 can decide things. How dumb do they think we are? For once, I agree with the rantings of Mr Samuel in the Daily Mail.
ps: This is going nowhere so I think we can all calm down.
99 Posted 12/10/2020 at 07:02:38
I just hope this resolves the 'other sides' – of which we are one – to be more determined to beat both Liverpool and Man Utd, and see if their comments change when they are facing the possibility of relegation.
Starting with us on Saturday, let's teach these greedy scumbags a lesson they will never forget. I also hope this steers the majority of fans into action, and they voice their opinions through the proper channels against all that is wrong with the game today, the disparity between grassroots and the upper echelons.
100 Posted 12/10/2020 at 07:21:35
Lets take the game back to the people and let these shitbags form their super league which will eventually wither and die.
101 Posted 12/10/2020 at 07:24:49
It rankles me every time I hear the big 6. Tottenham? Ridiculous.
Where do they come from including Southampton and West Ham in a 'top 9'. Wolves, Villa, Newcastle are bigger clubs than those two.
We should make sure we don't side with Utd and Liverpool. We aren't established in the top 4 yet and if Mr Moshiri decides enough is enough with regards to money, we could quickly find ourselves like Leeds. We don't want to vote for anything that could harm us in the future.
102 Posted 12/10/2020 at 07:46:15
I would love to know how 'big' is defined in relation to the clubs mentioned, other than their record of regularly qualifying for (and failing in) the Champions League:
Liverpool - didn't win the league for 30 years
Man Utd - haven't won the league for 7 years and don't look like they will win another one for a long time to come
Man City - won the league in 2012 after a short 44-year wait, but can't fill their 55,000 seat stadium
Tottenham - last won the league in the time before TV went colour
Chelsea - won the league in 2004 after a short 50-year wait and have a 40,000 seat stadium
Arsenal - last won the league 16 years ago and it will be that long before they win it again.
The reason why they want to do this is two-fold. They want to concentrate decision-making power so they can spin off into the European Super League. In addition, they know that their dominance over the last 15 years will increasingly come under threat from resurgent clubs like Everton, Wolves, Leicester and, perhaps in due course, Leeds, Newcastle and Aston Villa.
103 Posted 12/10/2020 at 08:20:21
104 Posted 12/10/2020 at 08:24:37
It's all about the money for these two owners – and always has been.
105 Posted 12/10/2020 at 08:41:15
It is to the credit of Liverpool and Man Utd that they have at least talked to them and put forward with their names attached an agreed proposal.
Of course, the parties involved in the absence of other input will have their views expressed on the proposal. The Premier League, of course, will object to any proposal put forward, since they are unwilling to relinquish any change to their current comfy position. But the fact is that they have been poor in their response to the Covid Crisis and, in any proposal, will cast the lower leagues adrift. I don't buy into this being an American plot.
I hope that Everton will support this proposal as a starting point in negotiations to start off a response to the very real crisis that clubs face in all leagues and pressurise the Government to get involved in any proposal and prevent them from trying to wash their hands of it, as they are currently doing.
106 Posted 12/10/2020 at 08:51:22
Good news that the government are intervening and calling it out. Fans and media too are outraged. Let's hope it's dead in the water.
107 Posted 12/10/2020 at 09:05:41
The gift of money to the EFL is clearly a fob that they will be pressured to take due to their financial circumstances. How dare Man Utd and Liverpool pretend that this is a kind offer to save the football world!
The other proposal to do with vetoing takeovers is again obviously maintaining the status quo and scuppering any (Newcastle, Everton, Villa etc) from getting a billionaire to plough cash in. It's okay for Man City and Chelsea to have had it for years but the cozy monopoly must be ring-fenced.
This is a good example of how our once great game has been grotesquely distorted by greedy men. It's ugly and these bastards are trying to keep the lion's share of the Premier League money by every means, pressuring refs, implementing VAR, Financial Fair Play and even monopolising all media outlets, ensuring the so-called top 6 get all the chit-chat and the likes of Everton, Leicester etc are rarely mentioned.
I hope our club do not sign up to this. The poxy offer of extra voting rights to longer Premier League members is a pathetic attempt to gain compliance It reminds me of this...
"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out — because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out — because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out — because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me — and there was no-one left to speak for me."
108 Posted 12/10/2020 at 09:17:34
I have no doubt those weeks when the “top two” are not involved in weeks previously set aside for the League Cup, they will be swanning off to Kuala Lumpur for lucrative exhibition games.
I very much doubt the other “top four” have had much input but will follow suit when the financial stats are put to them.
People's game, my arse!
109 Posted 12/10/2020 at 09:22:30
This nasty, disgusting, power grab proposal has nothing, whatsoever, to do with the financial impact of Covid19 on lower league clubs and all to do with a barely disguised attempt by the likes of Liverpool and Man Utd to ring fence their positions and prevent others gatecrashing the party.
It's been in the making for 3 years and they've used the pandemic as a cynical vehicle to launch their proposals. Do you really think they give a damn about the likes of Crewe and Rochdale?
110 Posted 12/10/2020 at 09:30:56
Unfortunately, I've got no smell but this proposal and the two clubs who proposed it stink to high heaven. If it is voted on and passed, it will be the end the game for most fans that I know.
111 Posted 12/10/2020 at 09:31:25
It is purely a Trojan Horse concocted as sweet medicine as a Covid-19 rescue – I hope all the other clubs are decent enough to see that and reject.
112 Posted 12/10/2020 at 10:00:15
Eventually, it would be an EPL of maybe 16 teams or less, with no promotion or relegation. But, in most US sports, they share the wealth between the clubs/teams (most un-American!).
What is proposed here is no different from the original Premier League premise. They wanted only 18 teams, but no relegation. Other clubs said no, so a compromise was 22 to 20 clubs, keeping relegation. Unfortunately, I believe they will stop that and have a closed shop (so-called) Super League. That, or form a European Super League.
Either way, it's obviously all about money... pure greed... rich getting richer... like society in general, unfortunately! So, like others have said, why not sod these buggers off? Try following local lower or non-league footy instead... whilst it's still alive!
113 Posted 12/10/2020 at 10:06:58
114 Posted 12/10/2020 at 10:12:12
Let's shift the shite off to Iceland, you know it makes sense. Less travel for the majority of their fans!!.
115 Posted 12/10/2020 at 10:28:48
Their weak spot, though, is the match-going fans. They have to keep them on side; if they organise against them, and matches are played with no atmosphere, the whole thing unwinds. I'll bet they resent like hell having to release their proposals like this, they'd love to just be able to say, "We're doing this" – but they can't.
116 Posted 12/10/2020 at 10:38:53
If Liverpool and Man Utd really want to help clubs in the lower leagues, they could decide not to pay agents a penny in future – after all, players should be paying their own agents!!! The considerable savings would more than compensate. Likewise if they want to have a European Super League good riddance to them.
117 Posted 12/10/2020 at 10:53:03
It may be that the lack of fans, or their falling importance to the game is being factored in as part of the long term plan.
I bet there are a few people and organisations who are actively planning for this even now. Its all about TV revenues going forward and already, there are clubs who could do without match day receipts already.
The interests of the match going fans have been steadily ignored, increasingly over a period of years, and the genie is out of the bottle now.
Creating more space for televised matches or tournaments played in Asia or US for example could well become a major source of revenue. Less clubs and matches, no League Cup matches, all create space in the calendar.
And it only requires 6 clubs to vote for it!
118 Posted 12/10/2020 at 11:22:17
This will kill the game in England and I for one wouldn't be as disappointed as I would have been 20 years ago.
119 Posted 12/10/2020 at 11:42:08
Always remember the golden rule: Those that have the gold, make the rules.
120 Posted 12/10/2020 at 11:44:23
I'll bet they already have up their sleeves a somewhat less extreme version that will be accepted as a generous and realistic compromise, probably with the Premier League also-rans forking out more money to the EFL in return for some improved representation in the new structure. Not so much the turkeys refusing to vote for Christmas, as agreeing to push it back to Easter.
And off we all go, down the slippery slope they have created to their promised land.
121 Posted 12/10/2020 at 11:54:02
At least the fans can demonstrate loudly against this when domestic football continues.
Ah, hang on.
122 Posted 12/10/2020 at 12:08:51
123 Posted 12/10/2020 at 12:31:54
I had the same thought. On a serious note, is there cunning in the timing of this announcement, given the inability of fans to attend matches and make a concerted demonstration of opposition across all venues, before entering the game?
124 Posted 12/10/2020 at 12:45:54
The Glazers & Fenway Sports Group are already siphoning out hundreds of millions that could have stayed in British football. They now want to pocket even more and kill off everything that doesn't directly make money for them. A couple of years down the line and the EFL would be getting 25% of nothing after the Glazer's accountants have worked their magic.
If Everton back this, we are signing our own death warrant. West Ham, like us, are only included on a temporary basis and Southampton were added as Liverpool feeder club who will always do Fenway's bidding. All to give the impression that it's not a Sky 6 takeover.
125 Posted 12/10/2020 at 12:57:04
126 Posted 12/10/2020 at 13:21:16
What makes more sense in the long term is surely slimming down the amount of professional clubs by making all four divisions 20-strong. That would mean the bottom half of the 4th Division drops into non-professional conference play.
And the League Cups days are surely numbered in its present format. Wed better win it soon!
127 Posted 12/10/2020 at 13:30:36
1) welcome parts we like such as the £250m and the 25% revenue from Premier League to EFL
2) welcome signatories from all fans from different clubs including LFC and Man U.
I hope the TW editors and others will bE able to sell this to fan sites of all clubs
128 Posted 12/10/2020 at 13:35:15
Martin Samuel is an arsehole but he really has put the average supporters view quite eloquently!
Rick Parry is an absolute disgrace. There is no doubt where his allegiance is and where it has always been. This disgrace of a guy should be binned by the EFL asap. A total sell out to his constituent.
Hopefully as the day, and the next couple, go on more and more Clubs and supporters groups will speak out against this plan and it's joint instigators.
The RS should be stripped of their name. They truly are a disgrace to the City of Liverpool.
Hopefully they who are always right, the bastion of truth, commonly known as The Spirit of Shankly, lead the calls of condemnation
129 Posted 12/10/2020 at 13:44:49
130 Posted 12/10/2020 at 13:55:34
131 Posted 12/10/2020 at 14:00:35
Aim high, dish out some sweets and some things totally unacceptable. Cause discussion, outrage and tensions between stakeholders.
Get what you really want :- TV monies divvied out to clubs on the basis of world viewing in exchange for premier league EPL funding. (A funding that was likely to be forced anyway.)
132 Posted 12/10/2020 at 14:10:44
Well said, John. Well said. I might be overstating it but I've always seen Liverpool the city as united, pulling together, often against the odds of more privileged outsiders and elites. And when Liverpool the club, post-Hillsborough, fought for literally decades against the police and the political elites who protected those police, Everton FC and the wider football community of clubs and fans stood four-square behind the fight against injustice, inequality and sense of privilege.
Liverpool FC, you certainly know how to repay the city and the wider football community. Shame on you. Shame on you. A disgrace to the city of Liverpool. I'm saddened by this.
133 Posted 12/10/2020 at 14:18:51
134 Posted 12/10/2020 at 14:25:46
When the European Cup became the Chamions League, they proposed allowing any club who had ever won it entry perpetually. Gladly that was knocked on the head.
If the Premier League has got £250m to burn then they should be giving that back into football now. A small slice of that would have gone a long way to saving Macclesfield or Bury.
Greed in this game is nothing new. The footballers' own union which supports ex players has a flat rate joining fee. A player at the wrong end of league 2 on wages a normal person, like those on the terraces can understand, pays the same as the multi million earning 'stars'. A proposal to make the membership one days pay per year was rejected by Premier League players who didn't want to let go of anything more.
I am with those who say to our neighbours in red and others that if they aspire to a Euro Super League, just say so. Then form it. Go to it. But know you will never be allowed back when the grass is not greener. And I'd add to this. Any player who plays in it will not be allowed to play international football or come back to the domestic league.
135 Posted 12/10/2020 at 14:25:56
I also think that we have far to many professional leagues in this country that are completely unsustainable. I would suggest other than the Premier league and the Championship, all other leagues become part time or made into non league clubs. No other country has this many professional clubs, also the central league idea is reinstated were Premier clubs play a reserve fixture every week. Also just have a youth league for under 17 year old league and an under 21 league. I would also not let children under 15 join a professional club.
136 Posted 12/10/2020 at 14:28:55
It was my perceived view that the Premier League and it's member clubs together with the broadcasting companies, were putting money before human life, which led me to self impose a 'boycott of televised matches', and for those who poured scorn on my decision, I would like to inform them that I haven't watched a minute of live football since I sat in the Park End for the Manchester United game in March.
137 Posted 12/10/2020 at 14:31:09
138 Posted 12/10/2020 at 14:49:26
Absolutely stinks the place out.
139 Posted 12/10/2020 at 14:49:57
I think that's basically the idea, maybe Paul will be around to confirm or otherwise.
140 Posted 12/10/2020 at 15:05:25
But the reason is quite straight forward. They'll be making that much more money that big chunks can be given to the lower tiers while they're incomes rocket.
And they're not doing it out of the goodness of their own hearts (IMO) they're doing it to get a groundswell of positivity from those who pose no threat to their greed.
They're trying to bully the premier league clubs into this by having the lower tiers up in arms and all for it because, as a couple of the lower tier clubs' chairmen have already said. "Yes it will increase greatly the income of the big six but that's a sacrifice worth accepting."
The conspirators are trying to marginalize those clubs in the premier league not in their gang.
Obvious in the extreme and disgraceful in the extreme too.
141 Posted 12/10/2020 at 15:22:09
I'm with you 100% but I'd just like to add another rider to your post "If Liverpool and United carry on with this scheme the Premier League will seek to remove them from the competition"
As soon as I saw Parry on tv this morning and think about the American money making way this will be done I felt like throwing something at the tv.
It is blatantly obvious that these two US led clubs are in it for no one else but themselves.
I saw this morning that the Football League are talking to top Clubs other than them two to stay within the EFL.
142 Posted 12/10/2020 at 15:22:11
Exclusive: 'Project Big Picture' offers retrospective subsidies for new stadium builds/improvements with Liverpool and Tottenham Hotspur among those who would benefit
143 Posted 12/10/2020 at 15:53:13
. while the others resume normal EPL and promote 2 more teams from championship league?
I am not going to pay and watch so called 6-9 teams week in week out playing each other!! Bored me to death for sure.
144 Posted 12/10/2020 at 16:03:25
145 Posted 12/10/2020 at 16:07:00
146 Posted 12/10/2020 at 16:21:42
Wakeham put him his place: “Interesting. If I were in business I wouldnt want any competition at all.”
And so the dominant players in the Premier League are trying to maintain their pre-eminence by crushing any potential competitors.
It is clear what they want, but will they be allowed to get away with it?
147 Posted 12/10/2020 at 16:26:54
But it will force the Premiership and the Government to the negotiating table while they like it are not and aleast allow the Football League blight to be discussed. The League is more dependent on spectator income, which there is none at the moment.
The Premier League body has handled the Civic Crisis poorly and still trying to maintain the status quo, which would do more damage than events worse aspects of this proposal.
148 Posted 12/10/2020 at 16:32:59
They could just say, “Thank you, this gives us something to consider.” Then promptly ignore them. The EPL isnt really being forced to do anything just because two of their bigger clubs threw some ideas out there?
149 Posted 12/10/2020 at 16:39:49
But can we substitute the word “American” when referring to these two clubs, with “African”, or “Middle Eastern” or any other group, and then possibly tread on thin ice as to whether this is latent racism?
Of course, and to be clear, I dont believe it is. Say whatever the hell you want to, wont offend me. But it is rather amazing that because these two clubs are owned by Yanks, the capitalistic, dirty narrative comes flying out.
Look, its a business. Theyre looking to consolidate their position and make more dosh. If we Americans do that particularly well, I guess we file under “stereotype”?
What a tangled web we weave with verbiage these days.
All of the above is opinion. Take it or leave it. And please, leave any, “your remarks are racist” at the door. Because I promise you that shit wont stick on me, fling it somewhere else.
The Capitalistic, Money-Grubbing, Wickedly Evil American.
150 Posted 12/10/2020 at 16:52:06
151 Posted 12/10/2020 at 16:54:33
152 Posted 12/10/2020 at 16:56:08
153 Posted 12/10/2020 at 16:59:47
The full article explains Henrys motivation. Essentially the EPL is too difficult with Liverpool having too many hard games to compete in Europe. This is because the non big six clubs have too much cash to strengthen, lack ambition to win but exist just to serve as spoilers to the big six. No mention of how Leicester winning the league more recently than three of the big six backs up his view. Or indeed how Everton, Leeds, Blackburn, Villa, Derby, Nottingham Forest winning the league more recently than Spurs supports his beliefs.
154 Posted 12/10/2020 at 17:08:24
155 Posted 12/10/2020 at 17:10:30
156 Posted 12/10/2020 at 17:17:14
157 Posted 12/10/2020 at 17:20:32
Regardless of the general view of America as a capitalistic/economic system (and seemingly the negative side of Capitalism at that) an earlier poster did raise an interesting contradiction, as far as sport in America is concerned.
To build on that post, the philosophy behind how the National Football League (NFL) is run is far more equitable for all concerned.
The NFL is set up as a parity system to prevent long runs of ineptitude and to make it difficult to sustain a prolonged period of success.
The list of different winners highlighted in the earlier post during the same period of winners of the Premier League supports a far more equitable system for teams/Franchises and fans alike.
The draft (the order of which is determined by inverting the previous season's standings), free agency (the period in early March when any team can negotiate with players whose contracts have expired) and the salary cap (the amount of money teams can spend on players each season) are intended to foster fair competition.
(Jamie/and any other American poster, please correct me if I have this wrong…I do not profess to be an expert on American sports (Hockey is my favorite one though!)
This framework is put in place with “parity” in mind. i.e. designed to improve balance among the teams.
I for one would welcome this type of approach in the Premier League rather than what we have now and most certainly, instead of what Liverpool and Man United have put forward.
158 Posted 12/10/2020 at 17:27:21
Since European competition began to be taken seriously those two clubs have believed that they are above the rules of the English game and have tried every trick in the book to have rules altered to suit their own agendas whether they be actual football rules or financial ones. Everton FC is not above reproach but it either has never had the will or the power to engage in such activities but if our club actively supports these types of proposals or allows the proposals to be introduced without publicly decrying them, it will be seen as guilty by association.
The real culprits in this distasteful affair are the people who supposedly run the game, ie the football authorities at home and abroad, the owners are naturally pushing the envelope as far as it can be pushed aided and abetted by the TV moguls who don't care about football or supporters they are only influenced by numbers and bottom lines.
159 Posted 12/10/2020 at 17:34:46
You're correct in the main on every point you make.
I'd caution you, however, to never, ever describe hockey as an "American Sport" or a Canadien will gladly take 2 minutes in the box and slash you out of principle.
160 Posted 12/10/2020 at 17:35:43
161 Posted 12/10/2020 at 17:38:01
162 Posted 12/10/2020 at 17:41:56
Hah, I meant the "American Continent" of course!
Wouldn't want to upset any of our Canadian readers. Seems like we also have a number of Brits living up in Canada as well.
Great to have Everton as the common thread!
163 Posted 12/10/2020 at 17:43:34
All the best!
164 Posted 12/10/2020 at 17:47:45
165 Posted 12/10/2020 at 17:50:38
166 Posted 12/10/2020 at 17:59:54
A classic peach, soft on the outside and easily bruised. That's male, American privilege. If you perceive ‘American owners to be a pejorative term then you have to look at why you think thats the case. Maybe its a byword for greed and selfishness, nothing to do with the color of their skin.
This has nothing to do with race at all. Im sad it should even be mentioned.
The groups you cite have to put up with racist shit daily, every minute of every day, someone referring to the color of their skin. Could you handle that? I certainly couldnt.
These ‘American owners are not being called out for the color of their skin. Theyre been called out because they are greedy, care only for themselves, and are looking to weaken the herd for their own gains.
They happen to be American. Its a fair cop, Im sure they make no apologies for it and give zero fucks. Its about leveraging their position during a global pandemic when others are weak. If anything you should own these monsters as one of your own and call them out, condemn them and give them both barrels. Its morally bankrupt.
This is about dividing the pyramid into neat little blocks, buying off smaller clubs in the short term to give the bigger clubs a lock on their position long term. We may have promotion/relegation but if this offer were to stand those six at the top are ‘de-facto franchises, because they will never experience relegation because theyve made it impossible for them to fall that far. People talk about US franchises being fair, well thats true because you have a salary cap, that means you cannot horde all the best players, no salary cap in the premier league though. The top six can horde the best players to themselves and share the titles amongst them. How very egalitarian! 😡 Its pseudo Franchises without the fairness.
Its about weakening their indirect competition (Everton, Leeds, Villa etc.) just enough so they survive but will never pose a threat to them and allow them to play stronger sides in Europe and reserve sides in the league knowing there will never be an upset. They will always finish top six and never be threatened with relegation, again just franchise style ownership locking people out. No Cinderella story, no upsets, just guaranteed income and success. There is zero jeopardy here. So whats the point? If this goes through, the whole thing is over.
This is maybe many things JaC but its a misjudgment to think race should be mentioned in this discourse.
I of course sound like a total plonker, a classic hypocrite because I live and thrive in the US. The individualistic values I denounce above allow me to prosper here, and I couldnt do so in Europe. Im thankful for that but not blind enough to see when taken to the extreme, the ‘enth degree those values are dangerous to the many.
Ooooh. Than feels better, rant over.
167 Posted 12/10/2020 at 18:36:56
168 Posted 12/10/2020 at 18:58:57
I am patently not offended. Not even in the slightest. I can't really say anything that will convince you, other than to say believe me. The reason I point it out is that I find it rather hilarious people fling around the "American" verbiage so simply and easily painting a massively wide stroke in a negative conotation, compartmentalizing an entire nation. It's the PETA of "latent racism" and I find it hilarious. Defend the clubbed baby seals, but don't take up the cause of the cockroach. Selective choice of when and how to apply the word-police.
Americans, Sir John, are the cockroaches.
Also, I am not a classic peach. I live in Florida, not Georgia.
You say trope, but why can't it be racist, this slating of American businessmen? To be clear, I'm with you 100% - it's a trope without question. But again, change the terms from American to African, and is it no longer a trope? Why?
And, on the subject of African or Middle Eastern, we need to point out, and I quote:
This is maybe many things JaC but its a misjudgment to think race should be mentioned in this discourse.
John, please read carefully. I didn't bring up race or pigmentation. But since you did: African can mean many things, ask the white power structure in South Africa, a Muslim in North Africa, etc. Israeli's are definably Middle Eastern, do we classify them by pigmentation? I didn't. You brought that up, not me. You made an assumption based upon your preconceived notions of what it means to be "African" and "Middle Eastern".
I, too, am a hypocrite on many, many levels. But I find it highly ironic that the term American is used and bandied about willy-nilly, without having to live up to the same "correct-speak" other "labels" must live up to.
It's all bullshit, John. And that's my point. Thank you for helping me make it.
Completely not offended, and hope you aren't, either.
169 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:03:04
170 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:03:04
There has been some comparison with North American ie US and Canadian sports. We have been granted one franchise in baseball (Toronto Blue Jays) and basketball (Toronto Raptors). Both have won their respective “World Series” but are nominally owned by Canadians but run by Americans. For the longest while Toronto has been suggested as the home of a NFL team. It has the commercial market to support a franchise but its closeness to the Buffalo Bills (Buffalo is just 2 hours away by car) has stopped this from happening. This offers an insight into the business American sport franchise model.
However even more distasteful and annoying to Canadians is how the USA franchise model of the National Hockey League has stolen our national sport - ice hockey from us. There are now 31 teams in the league. 32 in 2021-22 season when Seattle joins. Note here no problem that Seattle is close to Vancouver who have the Canucks!
So slowly getting to my point, again for the longest while the NHL which is now run by Americans with an American called Gary Bettman as the all powerful crooked czar commissioner! He has fought tooth and nail to restrict the number of Canadian teams currently standing at 7. Large urban areas such as Toronto and Montreal could easily have 2 teams or close by cities of Hamilton and Quebec could be a viable alternative. These proposals have always been dismissed as not part of the NHL franchise model.
So the track record of the sport business dealings of American franchise owners who now control Manure and RS should be carefully studied and kept well clear of.
Please note this is not a rant by an ex-Brit Canadian EFC supporter and sufferer since 1966 against our friends from below the 49th parallel but a warning about getting into bed with the Glazer, Henry and Werner.
171 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:07:54
I expect a U turn shortly!
172 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:08:25
What lies beneath the tail?
An arsehole in most cases!
We all know who the owners of the arseholes are!
173 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:13:40
Maybe I did overtly introduce race, Ill say I thought you did by supposition. Maybe it wasnt conscious but it screamed privilege, overly protesting at a trope which is largely true right? Perhaps unconscious bias?
However in this case its actually true, the Glazers most definitely are nothing but monsters who have ruined United. FSG are a group closer to your heart I guess, but are no less culpable here. The term has not been loosely used in this particular case. Its well deserved.
You may have a point more broadly, but 7 years here says the reputation is not undeserved in some quarters of this great country.
I love the dissing of the peach 🍑! I suppose the orange 🍊 has a slightly thicker skin! 😜 not like us Brits, coconuts 🥥 through and through.
I love interacting with someone like you and know you take it for what it is, a debate, not a personal score to settle.
174 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:14:58
175 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:31:47
As I mentioned, I'm a hypocrite. If I had a nickel for every time my brain engaged in compartmentalizing the English, I'd be a very, very rich man.
It's wrong. Simple. And I'm as guilty of it as anyone else.
I will never, ever forget, Eugene Ruane posting on TW about how he liked country music. This was years ago. I actually posted how funny I thought that was. The notion of an Englishman enjoying country music? Well I never! That doesn't fit the stereotype.
Eugene, brilliant human being he is, dissected me like a Biology frog.
And I had that coming to me, and I considered my position and statements, and realized I was wrong.
All I'm saying, and the only point I'm making here, is my disdain for PC-speak. That's it. Your mileage may vary.
John - the thought I did by supposition is fair. I'm not throwing stones in glass houses.
Stan - Americans are a melting pot. But when grouped into one big ugly ball, it's still ugly.
176 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:31:52
177 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:35:02
The NHL has always been more of an American league than a Canadian one. Of the Original Six, four were in the US, and the geographic distribution has always been disproportional. And Quebec did have an NHL team for 23 years, but in 1995 the financially failed Nordiques moved to Colorado. The NHL is not going to return to a failed site.
Also, it's probably unfair to exclusively blame the proximity of the Bills for Toronto's lack of an NFL franchise. In fact, a group headed by Jon Bon Jovi tried to buy the Bills some years ago with the idea of moving them to Toronto, but the group was outbid by Buffalo locals (and sabotaged by Donald Trump, who also wanted the team). And there are financial difficulties with the idea of an expansion NFL franchise in Toronto -- Rogers is an inadequate stadium, both the Bills and the CFL Argonauts draw weak attendance so local interest might not be sufficient, and paying players in US dollars while collecting much of its revenues in Canadian dollars is a significant disadvantage for a new team.
The picture is always a bit more complex than it first appears.
178 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:37:12
◾ The Premier League cut from 20 to 18 clubs, with the Championship, League One and League Two each retaining 24 teams.
Terrible idea in my opinion. Just, why? What's the motivation other than to consolidate power in fewer hands? Awful.
◾ The bottom two teams in the Premier League relegated automatically with the 16th-placed team joining the Championship play-offs.
◾ The League Cup and Community Shield abolished.
Awful idea! The League Cup is a real chance for those "non-big" Clubs to win silverware. I hate this idea.
◾ Parachute payments scrapped.
◾ A £250m rescue fund made immediately available to the EFL
◾ £100m paid to the FA to make up for lost revenue.
◾ Nine clubs given 'special voting rights' on certain issues, based on their extended runs in the Premier League.
179 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:40:03
180 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:42:06
181 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:42:13
There are some fine posters on here from across the Atlantic. Our editors occasionally post something worthwhile. Lyndon sometimes strings a few words together. Michael does his best to disguise his horror that he may have been wrong about our centre forward. Crowley seems a decent guy. Others have cogent thoughts. Even Gaynes talks sense now and again.
This is a week for us to be united!
182 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:42:33
Fundamentally, it's long been invoked as a weapon to make people self-censor and to virtue signal to fit in, to go along to get along and not be cancelled or doxxed online. But now that we're being told that being white is of itself a de facto act of racism, its use is plumbing new depths of absurdity, along with terms like privilege, misogyny, bigotry, etc. It's all designed to prevent people from telling it as it is because we live in an age of universal deceit and denial of reality.
The grand irony, though, is that the ones directing this madness are the very people so many liberals caricature as the supreme enemy: old white men in suits.
183 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:47:14
Jay@182: I think every age has been characterised by those attributes, it's just that the precise form changes over time as fashions and terminology change.
184 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:50:48
The Premier league is a billion pound world wide product. Why should its members have to bail out the clubs below it?
I might be easy to take that attitude when your clubs top of the Premiership (COYBs), but why should Everton FC care about what happens to Bolton Wanderers for example. The premier league simply cant spread its money out throughout all the leagues and keep everyone afloat.
Reform is needed, is this the solution probably not. But if COVID-19 lingers as estimated for the next 5-10 years it will change the shape of football forever.
185 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:51:10
Im sorry Jay but theres no place on a forum like this for such prejudice against old men in suits.
186 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:55:07
187 Posted 12/10/2020 at 19:58:54
"Hatched by Liverpools American owners with the approval of their Manchester United counterparts and run up the flagpole by Football League chief suit, Liverpool fan, former Premier League CEO and suspected trojan horse Rick Parry, Project Big Picture is not entirely without merit, even if it does bear a striking likeness to Edvard Munchs The Scream. Taking the extremely short-term view, the one Parry and his cohorts want you to take, EFL clubs in danger of going into Covid-related extinction would get a rescue package, the grassroots game would benefit financially, a much-maligned parachute payments system would be abolished and – most importantly – The Fiver gets some much-needed #content to write about on what would otherwise have been a very quiet Monday.
But at what cost, eh? Since news of the plan broke, words like “self”, “serving”, “power” and “grab” have been bandied about by cynics who, while acknowledging Something Needs To Be Done to save clubs from going to the wall, have a feeling the motives of Liverpool and Manchester United might not be entirely altruistic. The government is appalled, the Premier League is appalled and several Football League clubs have also clutched their pearls over a wheeze they feel would scupper their chances of ever hitting the big time. In return for a gesture of apparent largesse that would cost them nothing and help them earn even more, members of the Big Six and three other clubs apparently picked at random from an upturned fez would ultimately seize control of all Premier League decision-making. “I dont see it that way,” countered Parry, waving his pom-poms on various radio shows. “They care about the pyramid. This will come out, the truth will come out; their passion for the pyramid will come out.”
Of course only time will tell if this hitherto concealed passion is unbridled enough to encourage the Premier Leagues richest clubs to help out those less fortunate than themselves in a manner that isnt so obviously self-serving. They could begin by rowing back on their fiendish plan to remove the Premier Leagues all important “one club, one vote” ethos, an idea that flies in the very face of democracy. For now, though, at least a conversation has begun and it is shaping up to be quite the squabble that could ultimately end in a footballing civil war. For lower-league clubs who need financial assistance now, the wait for salvation looks set to go on and on."
That last is a point that should not be forgotten. Time is of the financial essence for many of the League 1 and League 2 clubs. It's important that the current controversy not get so intense that they drown while it's being fought.
191 Posted 12/10/2020 at 20:01:07
2) Part of me says every team encourages the teams that over-estimate themselves to form their super league quickly and get out of the way.
Then the rest of the world can form an official body to represent all the football clubs from scratch. Better distribute money to clubs at the lower level or top level teams have a lower percentage distribution of income, have ex-footballers from each level in non-league and professional football on a corporate training programme so that this organisation can be strong enough to offer the best world football organisation run by football people, and a competition that suits everyone involved at all levels.
The Super League can't buy players from teams in any of the leagues in this new organisation body unless they pay the same amount as a contribution to the organisation body - designed to stop the Super League teams buying any talent at market value.
Finally, any footballers that come from the European Super League have to pay an annual contribution fee to the new official body if they want to take part (that's just me being silly).
I think the Super League will fail, as it will be boring, and no new players will get signed if an alternative organisation was formed in this kind of way, and fans will enjoy a competition much more better when designed by several ex-players trained in corporate commercial strategy to ensure it works in every way possible better than the Super League.
Place your bets though... Be in the Super League or take on the Super League?
192 Posted 12/10/2020 at 20:04:21
Story of my life.
193 Posted 12/10/2020 at 20:06:45
194 Posted 12/10/2020 at 20:15:21
Each premier league club could adopt more than one smaller club but would not have to pay out more than the equivalent of a year's wages and maybe less if they could get the government to go halves.
195 Posted 12/10/2020 at 20:15:31
196 Posted 12/10/2020 at 20:17:34
197 Posted 12/10/2020 at 20:19:56
198 Posted 12/10/2020 at 20:23:01
199 Posted 12/10/2020 at 20:23:18
However we are very pleased that having 31/32 teams provides employment for our young players. But it would be nice to have a few more Canadian teams who could hold their own financially against the much weaker USA teams such as the Florida Panthers who only draw 14000 fans. Even the recently reformed Winnipeg Jets draw more than New Jersey and Arizona! Do you not think a team in Quebec or Hamilton would not draw more than that?
Yes professional sport is all about money and there are far more cities in the USA who can support a franchise. But how do you explain why New York/New Jersey can have teams in close proximity but the Greater Toronto Area has only the Leafs. Once again the threat of 2 Toronto teams could jeopardize the Sabres in Buffalo? Does the GTA have a larger fan base than Buffalo?
Plus there is no comparison between the drawing power of the CFL and the mighty NFL. So please dont mention the Argonauts!
There are so many petty reasons - the $US against the $Can or that the Rogers/SkyDome is not suitable but the basic argument is power, money and control and all the major professional franchise sport are run by Americans!
I dont think I ever suggested that the debate was not complex!
200 Posted 12/10/2020 at 20:25:31
Thank you for that post, I wouldnt be able to properly articulate how I feel about this , but you have done a great job.
As we saw with the initial RS furlough decision, for FSG this is a business that exists for one reason only, to make as much profit as possible. The bulldozers are on the march again to crush any opposition.
The league has to stand strong and protect its competitive integrity. After all thats what makes people want to watch and more importantly to them PAY to watch.
The slobbering, idiotic, wanton greed of it all threatens English football as we know it.
201 Posted 12/10/2020 at 20:30:05
202 Posted 12/10/2020 at 20:33:05
203 Posted 12/10/2020 at 21:00:48
That's the unlying problem would needs addressed. Conspiracies can be seen left, right and centre, but that problem needs addressed. When the fog settles something will have to be done.
204 Posted 12/10/2020 at 21:00:49
That's the unlying problem would needs addressed. Conspiracies can be seen left, right and centre, but that problem needs addressed. When the fog settles something will have to be done.
205 Posted 12/10/2020 at 21:06:03
When the Nordiques joined the NHL, I thought they'd be hugely successful. Yet even when they finally got good on the ice, they were endlessly circling the drain financially. Same for the original Jets, who owned the low-cost WHA but couldn't keep up in the NHL financially. Credit to the NHL for expanding back into Winnipeg later on, but I just don't think it's gonna happen in Quebec again. The NHL goes where the money is, and I think Quebecois who thought the league would choose them over a monster market like Seattle were wildly deluding themselves.
You ask "why New York/New Jersey can have teams in close proximity but the Greater Toronto Area has only the Leafs." The answer is that NY/NJ has four times the population and about ten times the media/money power. By contrast, the only NHL city with less than 1 million population is Winnipeg, and there is nothing else near it. Hamilton has only 2/3 of Winnipeg's population and would have two other NHL teams in close proximity. Even ignoring the Buffalo factor (I haven't paid attention to the Sabres since Gil Perreault retired), that may answer your question.
For what it's worth, neither the Panthers nor the Coyotes have ever made sense to me. I think the former is doomed eventually and the latter would have been if they hadn't found that buyer last summer. But then I thought the Las Vegas experiment would be a disaster, and it's been a freakin' bonanza, so what do I know?
206 Posted 12/10/2020 at 21:13:39
This is precisely why LFC and MU have made this public now. They are banking on pressure from the lower league clubs to get the money, to force through the agreement to their plans.
If Boris is really concerned then he should get the Chancellor to make the £250 million immediately available to the Football League clubs ( but administered by one of the governments departments - not Rick Parry and his cohorts, and then call in the £250 million loan the government has already made to one of the "Big 6" i.e Spurs., to cover it.
See how that would go down with Mr Levy?
Don't forget - who were the first two clubs to try to Furlough their non playing staff?
Money grabbing sharks - nothing more - nothing less.
207 Posted 12/10/2020 at 21:17:28
There are greedy and power hungry forces in every walk of life but we all expect better of Sport because that is what it is supposed to be about Sportmanship not oneupmanship or dictatorship.
Why not let all 92 (don't even know if there is that many left anymore) clubs have 1 vote an any proposal with a 75% majority required to pass any changes.
For me the only really big problem in football right now is the crazy wages and agents fees not the lack of income.
Noone under 21 should be earning over 10000 a week unless they are regular premier league starters and players should pay the agents fees not the clubs. That should be a starting point for any changes.
208 Posted 12/10/2020 at 21:25:53
209 Posted 12/10/2020 at 21:28:12
All this discussion about helping / saving the small Clubs in England got me to thinking.
Is there any chance we can engage in a civil discussion about why the Covid restrictions need to be loosed as we peer down the barrel of the economic death-gun?
We have crowds here for our football. Not capacity obviously, but people are paying to see collegiate games and also professional games as well in some areas. We have to get out of the shelter business and get back to business. The economic fallout of all of this is coming at us like a tsunami.
I'm totally pro-get-back-to-work. We've done this discussion before. Surely both sides of the issue can see the economies of "as you were, shelter in place" aren't sustainable?
Tranmere needs butts in seats. Restaurants can't do "fresh-air dining" when it's 30 degrees outside, they need an alternative. There's a real need to try to minimally strike a balance, isn't there?
Or should we rely on Liverpool and Manchester United types to capitalize on the common man's fears and grab yet more power? If we do, that is certifiably American and I fear for earth, not just football.
While the common man squabbles about safety and whether to shelter, the denizens of power giggle and grab more of it. Football, society, politics, all of it.
210 Posted 12/10/2020 at 21:33:43
So intermingled, if one nation falls, the other follows. It's a "we" issue.
We gotta get back to work, let the crowds in, and deal with the health issues the very best we can, in the safest manner possible.
211 Posted 12/10/2020 at 21:38:08
get me started on Rick Parry.
212 Posted 12/10/2020 at 22:01:49
There are big questions regarding the balances of safety risks and economic costs that have simply not been adressed very well. Especially at the start of the pandemic when there were opportunities for sensible measures for avoidance and prevention as opposed to the less proportionate measures to attempt control and mitigation after valuable time had been lost and events had escalated.
In this respect, there are significant issues surrounding the 'scientific' advice to government and the handlng of it, which need to be addressed going forward. Contrary to the repeated claims from government that the 'best science' is being used.
SARS-COV-2 is a 'major hazard', and in any attempt to manage major hazards, failure to sensibly address strategies for avoidance and prevention invariably leads to problems later on in attempts to control and mitigate. Such problems include inconsistencies between various proposed measures, a failure to understand measures from a 'common sense' perspective, and associated and repeated knee-jerk reactions to events from decision-makers.
In other words, the current approaches are severely problematic.
213 Posted 12/10/2020 at 22:04:36
Is our national game still a game. One that the ruling bodies remain in charge of and have the over-riding deciding vote on or has that gone?
Is it simply sporting entertainment. A real world business with decisions that can be continuously challenged through legal action even against the sporting rules they sign up to?
The organic hybrid that currently exists is cracking and I don't think longer term it is sustainable. Changes are needed but for what purpose and direction should be established first.
214 Posted 12/10/2020 at 22:08:18
215 Posted 12/10/2020 at 22:11:07
216 Posted 12/10/2020 at 22:40:43
Generically, it's my belief that it's COVID that is economically unsustainable, not sheltering or closing or whatever you want to call it. If I keep my restaurant closed, I'm screwed. If I open it and a bunch of people get sick as a result, I'm screwed (and feeling really guilty). And if I'm not doing the same thing as the other restaurants on the street, I'm screwed either way.
The same is true for sporting events, only the geography is different, less local. It might be fine for (for example) the Broncos to reopen their stands for partial occupancy because the virus level in Denver is low. On the other hand, in America's current Ground Zero for the pestilence, Green Bay (sorry, I couldn't resist), it would be undisputed insanity for the Packers to allow fans into Lambeau Field -- or the parking lots for those legendary brat-fests. So they've closed everything again.
The thing is, the Broncos won't be sharing their gate receipts or beer profits or hot dog revenues with the Packers. So you see my point, although you may not agree with it. Colorado reopened partially and cautiously, and the Broncos are reaping the economic rewards. Wisconsin opened aggressively, and the Packers are zeroing out as a result. It's not always a matter of open=good economy and closed=bad economy. And there's no way to make it "fair" either way.
Or take the same question to the SEC. If the Gators have to play to empty stands because of high COVID rates but the Tide can fill their stands halfway because Tuscaloosa is relatively clear, it's grossly unfair -- the Tide gets both massive revenue and fan support that the Gators don't. But what do you do about that? Just order everybody to open at the same level regardless of local conditions, or have the states call the shots, or the universities themselves? Red state/blue state? It's an impossible conundrum.
217 Posted 12/10/2020 at 23:06:28
What authorities cannot control, is the pre and post game. Fans get a few drinks in them and social distancing lapses and whether youve had a few or not, you are at the mercy of the crowd and transmission rates. Whether thats actually true or not is irrelevant, sports fans have reputation, governments will never trust them.
218 Posted 12/10/2020 at 23:17:13
I recommend reading a book, "Blinded by Corona", written by a Red Shite, Dr John Ashton, an eminent internationally renowned epidemiologist. He states that the UK will be financially fucked for many years to come as a direct result of the ineptitude of BoJo and his crew of favoured abstract scientists, unlike Ashton, and lapdog Tory MPs.
If he's right, and nobody's saying he's wrong weeks after publication, indeed he's featuring more and more on British media, not only will football as we know it need all the help it can get from within itself to recognisably survive, but so will the whole UK population, in every aspect of life.
The Premier League sometimes seems to really believe that they're in a world of their own - hence the disillusionment of football fans.
219 Posted 12/10/2020 at 23:26:09
220 Posted 12/10/2020 at 23:45:18
Going back to my post @212, i've had concerns about the makeup of the SAGE committee that advises COBR, and about the system for appointing people to it and handling their outputs, from March, particularly from about the time that their so-called 'experts' were not opposing events like the March 11th Champions League match between Liverpool amd Atletico Madrid from going ahead.
In short, there has been no independent assessment of the outputs from SAGE, or of the 'experts' on it, by people experienced in managing and regulating major hazards, with the result that decisions have not had the rigour they should have had for a serious major hazard like SARS-COV-2. I wrote to a Parliamentary Select Committee about it at the beginning of April, and have tried to follow it up further through other channels, but I've found it difficult to get any traction from the politicians. So what you say with regard to that Ashton book is not surprising.
221 Posted 12/10/2020 at 23:50:17
Before Mike Gaynes falls out of his chair and realizes I've just backed an issue with an entirely economically socialist solution, desperate times call for desperate measures.
I'd also institute some type of barometer to allow 50% to 75% of fans back in the stadiums. We're still at a 99.96% survival rate, and surely we've made the sacrifice for those who need it. It's now their turn to stay home and isolate while we kick-start a world economy that is fluttering and facing collapse.
All this sounds harsh, don't mean it that way.
Somewhere there's a middle ground, a give and take. Distributive wealth to help all in a time of real need, coupled with a large-scale return to business as it was, as safe as possible.
People will get sick. We simply can't continue down the road we're traveling.
And again, these comments I make aren't necessarily CV19 issues. What's happening all over the globe, and in the world of football, is power-grabbing. It's disgusting, as John Pierce points out at 166, and common people, us pawns, have to voice our disdain for it. Lest the pawns be removed from the board altogether.
And if you think that's hyperbole, ask one of the food-service employees who make next to nothing if they're adequately represented in society presently. The industry just forecast 50% of all small business restaurants not making it in the next few months here in America (heard that on The Hill Youtube news show, believe it to be accurate there or thereabouts). All the power-people just ignore those workers. Literally, ignore them. Where's their representation? If it doesn't have to do with Wall Street of Big Pharm or Big Tech, no one gives a rat's ass.
Think of those employees as the League One and League Two Clubs. They need help, now. And that help won't come from the Corporatists, or the Liverpools, or the Man Us. Because they don't give a flying fuck about them, self-absorbed dicks they are.
Rant over, and I feel better now.
I'm gong to go read something with Elves, Dwarves, magic, and dragons to escape this world now for a bit. When I'm done burying my head in the sand I'll say hello on TW again. Knowing me, that'll last all of 5 minutes.
222 Posted 13/10/2020 at 00:38:53
I've commented that the American franchises driving this attempted power grab may be doing so because they cannot change their own, remarkably, equitable system.
If they don't like our financial structure (as unequal as it already is) who don't they just do one, and fuck off?
I have no wish to offend you or any of our many esteemed, well informed and articulate American Blues, on ToffeeWeb.
I'm half American myself!
223 Posted 13/10/2020 at 00:56:56
Dr Ashton also informs us in GB, especially, that so concerned about the government's SAGE are other internationally famed UK epidemiologists that they've formally convened an alternative SAGE, in which politics has no place. And guess what? The alternative SAGE has scientifically dismantled the shite being spouted by that lying, scouse-hating muppet BoJo and his hand-selected SAGE.
It's in print and, as said, nobody in government has seen fit to challenge it as even inaccurate, never mind untrue.
It's a thoroughly depressing read though, and no blame to the estimable author.
224 Posted 12/10/2020 at 01:43:16
Surprisingly no mention of Moshiri.
The "Big Six", in this case, includes Everton. Any statements from the club being against this proposal? I can't find any. Moshiri didn't wake up a few days ago first hearing about this news as we have. He's known it all along. So, let's consider Everton Football Club, our club, as "all-in".
The Big Six (or Nine) having a say in who can buy a club is what is called over here in the car business as a "loss leader". A couple of pieces of shit jalopies advertised for almost nothing to get the buyers into the store.
Wouldn't surprise me for a second, Henry tossed that baby in there. Here in baseball, we have a socialist system. The biggest clubs earn the most money, of which the Red Sox are one, have to kick a major share of the profits they generate (jerseys, caps, increased fan attendance etc) into a general fund that is distributed to the poorest money-generating clubs. One club, one vote is the reason.
I'm guessing like everyone else. I guess Henry tossed that in there to create "outrage", which will cause it to be rejected while everything else is accepted for the "good of the game". Which good of the game appears to include Mr Moshiri.
Didn't the Big Five creating the current Premier League, include expanding the number of clubs to 22 back in the early 90s. We were one of the Big Five. What's the problem now with Moshiri going along with Henry and the Glazers, cutting the number of clubs to 18?
And this outrage at American corporate avarice is laughable. Who do you think schooled us for 200 years on fuck everyone else, make money? The willingness to swim thru blood for a score? The English.
And your greatest contribution to America: wide-scale chattel slavery. We're still suffering the results of that. Finger-pointing motherfuckers. Next time you want to point fingers, be looking in a mirror when doing so.
225 Posted 13/10/2020 at 01:54:59
226 Posted 13/10/2020 at 02:31:14
Stan (212), well said.
I don't think there is a wish to form a European Super League behind these proposals. As others have said, that isn't necessary or even completely sensible for these clubs. They just want to be locked into staying at the top of the Premier League (and winning prestige / sponsorship) so they can get fatter from their enhanced Euro competitions. They need the Premier League to be a big money spinner with them raking off the most of it.
227 Posted 13/10/2020 at 03:00:50
228 Posted 13/10/2020 at 03:04:03
Jamie, lovely posts, indignant but articulate, this is no place for subtlety and I have to agree with other posters, for all your well-presented arguments and observations, the final "Fuck Off" nailed the argument and nailed what should be the overwhelming response.
Let's be clear though, it may well have been the brainchild of a pair of East Lancs RS but it appears to have the backing of the rest of the Premier League, including us?
This is self-interest at its worst, as opportunistic and repugnant it penalises the clubs they give aid too and increases the immorality of a power grab under the guise of a helping hand. Better to imagine the helping hand around the throat of the EFL and the other hand squeezing the balls of the FA.
229 Posted 13/10/2020 at 03:26:23
Don't get me wrong – these proposals may well benefit Everton though I fear they will firmly cement us as England's 7th biggest team for years to come as the current “big six” pull further away.
The ending of parachute payments is extremely dangerous because one of three things will happen:
1. Clubs will be promoted to the Premier League and find it too risky to spend the money necessary to stay there thus immediately being relegated or...
2. They will spend big in an attempt to stay up. If they fail to do so, they will end up in financial oblivion. Back in the Championship, in administration and staring down the barrel.
3. Spend big and stay up. Unfortunately, however, someone always has to be relegated – in which case, see #2.
Special voting rights going to 9 teams from a league of 18, but not including Aston Villa or Newcastle? What arbitrary madness is this? West Ham have been relegated from the Premier League twice and Southampton have spent seven seasons outside the top flight. Villa, like West Ham, have spent three seasons in the Championship and Newcastle only two.
Nobody should get preferential voting rights. The very essence of competition is everybody has the same set of tools. Of course there's a massive financial disparity between clubs but there is nothing written in the rules that prevents a Brighton or a Crystal Palace from becoming a rich club. To give nine clubs a written, contractual, permanent advantage over the other (potential) nine is fundamentally unsporting and wrong.
While these proposals could, in fact, benefit Everton, I question the merit of being successful in a rigged game. And while this may not be as brazen as giving the big teams a 1-0 lead at kick-off, it is potentially just as damaging to our national sport.
230 Posted 13/10/2020 at 05:38:36
231 Posted 13/10/2020 at 06:44:00
You cant possibly mean us?????
Great post, fella.
232 Posted 13/10/2020 at 08:24:14
233 Posted 13/10/2020 at 08:26:56
234 Posted 13/10/2020 at 09:22:56
235 Posted 13/10/2020 at 09:41:09
236 Posted 13/10/2020 at 09:49:19
237 Posted 13/10/2020 at 09:54:15
It could all be blown out of the water before it gets much further without us being dragged into a slanging match.
I can't say I've seen any quotes from any other premier league club either.
I have faith that our club is simply letting those greedy classless bastards hang themselves.
238 Posted 13/10/2020 at 09:54:43
If this was done over the phone every consumer programme on tv would be warning about this scam.
239 Posted 13/10/2020 at 09:56:51
West Ham have denounced it.
240 Posted 13/10/2020 at 10:00:11
241 Posted 13/10/2020 at 10:05:53
242 Posted 13/10/2020 at 10:06:37
243 Posted 13/10/2020 at 10:26:01
I just said to them, well, LFC didn't help matters (to say the least!) by holding the CL game against Atletico Madrid on 11th March. The government should have stopped such events happening, but LFC should of their own volition have refused to do it. Klopp came out and disagreed with it only after they'd been beaten.
I also said their keeness to resume the PL to make sure LFC completed their games to win the PL also didn't help (again, to say the least!), because it was quite obvious that the gathering of crowds would be inevitable.
If Johnson doesn't like Scousers, LFC have certainly given him some ammunition. And they're conflating the issue with Hillsborough!
They talk about the Thatcher years in the 80s, but similar happened then, Heysal certainly tarnishing the image of Scousers even more at that time, in addition to contributing to conditions that led to Hillsborough.
Hypocrisy from the RS is quite remarkable and repugnant.
244 Posted 13/10/2020 at 10:31:41
Did your mother never tell you about the English?
When we look at the mirror mirror on the wall. The only thing staring back at us, is the fairest of them all.
You want to talk about English hypocricy and high horsery ? Get back to us when you have read a few more fairy stories.
Good post James, but you may want to go a little easier with the truth next time.
245 Posted 13/10/2020 at 10:51:27
Apart from that there's nothing in the proposal that sounds overly negative - I would fully support the change in payments and don't really care about reducing the teams in the Prem and scrapping the cups.
246 Posted 13/10/2020 at 12:43:06
247 Posted 13/10/2020 at 12:51:10
James, Id be interested to know your thoughts on the treatment of Native Americans. And what happened to their land etc. Genuine post.
248 Posted 13/10/2020 at 13:46:31
I know that my views have been treated with sneers in some quarters, but I'll state here and now, that if Everton agree to this arrangement, I will walk away from Everton and football. [providing I'm still around to do so] and for anyone who may be interested. Yes, it will be on a 'Matter of Principle'
249 Posted 13/10/2020 at 13:51:55
250 Posted 13/10/2020 at 13:59:19
251 Posted 13/10/2020 at 14:14:25
252 Posted 13/10/2020 at 14:19:12
Its being said that this plan was leaked, and by neither of the 2 main players in its creation. So make of that what you will.
So maybe we will see a reaction tomorrow?
I think that the PL is able to arrange a payment to FL clubs now, with no change to its constitution, and discussions have been taking place about this for months already, with no decision by the PL.
So maybe well see a reaction to that as well tomorrow? Hopefully the right reaction and then punt the rest of this benighted nonsense into the long grass.
Until the next time of course.
253 Posted 13/10/2020 at 14:23:09
They're supposed to be the governing body ffs.
254 Posted 13/10/2020 at 14:24:58
255 Posted 13/10/2020 at 14:31:11
That said, I hope it doesn't come to pass, especially now that Everton seems on the verge of big things after us all being so hopeful and patient. For what my opinion is worth, I can't see it coming to pass, and as such anticipate continuing watching Everton. It would indeed be sadly ironic if a dodgy scheme dreamed up at Anfield ended up pushing lifelong Evertonians away from Everton.
256 Posted 13/10/2020 at 14:40:15
Only walk away if Everton votes in favor of the proposal. If our Club goes with the Sith Lords to the Dark Side, walk.
But if Everton stands strong and does the right thing, why would you walk away from football and your Club? Stay with them in support, and hope for change. You cant leave Everton if theyve really done nothing wrong, and in fact did something very, very right.
257 Posted 13/10/2020 at 14:51:56
Hi Stan,  the changes I've listed VAR etc, together with the things that you have mentioned have forced me also, to lose a great deal of interest and led me to the brink of walking away, the thing that prevents me from doing so is the fact that I take my Grandson to the match. I acknowledge that the players of today are far more skilful, but the theatricals are killing the game, and as I've stated, if the proposed changes were to take place I wouldn't hesitate from walking away.
258 Posted 13/10/2020 at 14:53:18
259 Posted 13/10/2020 at 14:58:57
260 Posted 13/10/2020 at 15:03:33
261 Posted 13/10/2020 at 15:23:59
262 Posted 13/10/2020 at 15:40:39
Okay we are in a comfortable position thanks to Moshiri's Millions, but we collectively have got to take a stance against this greed which is spiraling out of control, it all started with agents, but instead of some one saying " Hold on a minute, the Tail is Wagging the Dog here " it has been allowed, and almost expected, as the norm.
Yes there should be a body governing the whole scenario, but isn't that what FIFA and the FA are supposed to be doing in the interests of the game as a whole? The only thing that worries me is that where there is lots of money there is always some corruption in whatever form it takes, complimentary tickets lunches, dinners, hospitality etc.
FA Cup Finals are a case and point, supporters who have followed their team through every round, and attended all matches home and away, can't get a ticket for love nor money, yet some woman in a big hat, with no interest in the team, let alone football has a prime seat at Wembley!
Let's hope sense and and fairness conquers greed, but somehow I think I will only believe that, if I see it in action.
263 Posted 13/10/2020 at 15:48:31
264 Posted 13/10/2020 at 15:52:01
265 Posted 13/10/2020 at 15:54:07
I don't now if there is any arrangement with the Premier League and the lower league's, but if the Premier League wish to help the lower League's then they should offer from each team in the Premier a percentage say 5% of their gate monies and broadcasting revenue.
This would ensure the richer clubs would pay more to help the lower league's. As I say there may be some arrangement already in place.
266 Posted 13/10/2020 at 16:00:35
The woman in the big hat.
That was the Queen.
267 Posted 13/10/2020 at 16:08:39
There is a view growing that Parry has exceeded his authority in his part in this and should resign. They believe they should not support EFL while he remains in post.
268 Posted 13/10/2020 at 16:14:54
Christ, even Johnson and Dowding were against it, making pointed remarks about the governance of the Pl.
The main thrust of the spin today is the need for EFL clubs to get a deal urgently, but without mentioning that it is possible to do that without the power grab.
Lively meeting tomorrow on the cards!
269 Posted 13/10/2020 at 16:15:31
I arrest my case m'lud! :-)
270 Posted 13/10/2020 at 16:33:51
271 Posted 13/10/2020 at 16:36:42
272 Posted 13/10/2020 at 17:13:09
Just because the two clubs who cooked up this proposal have US owners is a poor basis on which to condemn it. There is a great deal of good to be learnt from US sport, such as the seasonal draft of new talent and salary caps to ensure healthy competition each season across all participants.
Particular kudos to James Flynn who very succinctly points out the capitalist model on which America was founded is inherited from the days of the British Empire.
Plenty to criticize this proposal on. US ownership of the said two clubs is not one of them, IMO.
273 Posted 13/10/2020 at 17:20:35
As an Englishman, I am not ashamed to look in the mirror and recognise the warts but the USA has been an independent country now since 1776 and the USA chose its own route to the predatory capitalism in which it now excels and has led to the most unequal developed country on earth. We don't want your predatory capitalism in the Premier League.
And please don't mention slavery of any kind. It took a Civil War to 'settle' (sic) the issue in America. It was abolished here by an Act of Parliament. That's a wart I never see in my mirror.
274 Posted 13/10/2020 at 17:23:24
This is a problem about money and the fact that two clubs are hell-bent on ensuring they have the lion's share, whether it's from TV or sponsorship, and to hell with every other club, especially – but not exclusively – those in the lower leagues.
It should be resisted with all our might. Supporters should write to the chairmen of their clubs and make their opposition known.
275 Posted 13/10/2020 at 17:25:47
277 Posted 13/10/2020 at 17:38:11
Capitalism is supposed to be about competition, providing the best at the most competitive price. Predatory capitalism is based on killing competition which is exactly what they are trying to do in the Premier League.
Mark my words.
278 Posted 13/10/2020 at 17:57:09
ps: Some of the anti-American posts are most unwelcome, as some of the best and most informed posts on TW emanate from Blues across the pond. I can imagine my anger if I was being slated for being of the same nationality as Farage, Johnson or Parry. No nation has a monopoly on shithouses.
279 Posted 13/10/2020 at 18:14:35
I was only trying to educate him!
280 Posted 13/10/2020 at 18:24:32
Otherwise, the corporate dodgy ones achieve one of the things they want to achieve, which is to divide and rule and carry on their shit whilst ordinary folks are too focused on arguing with each other.
It makes me laugh when I hear some people utter stereotyping shit aimed at ordinary folks. Such people are quite simply dopes.
281 Posted 13/10/2020 at 18:30:24
I'm from Liverpool, which was built partly on slavery, but it's not my problem, and I'm not ashamed of it.
282 Posted 13/10/2020 at 18:30:49
283 Posted 13/10/2020 at 21:45:02
The competition being alive and well is their worst nightmare.
284 Posted 13/10/2020 at 21:58:00
285 Posted 13/10/2020 at 22:06:56
As Dave Roberts says, the problem is the model of predatory capitalism (though globalist interests in general are the most accomplished, as opposed to any particular nationality).
286 Posted 13/10/2020 at 22:17:02
WOA! WOA! WOA! Slow down there m'man. I think you have me and it wrong.
I believe you mean to be speaking to James Flynn? I've not really addressed the American Capitalism thing too much here, rather the labeling. I think you meant to address your comments towards someone other than me.
If I'm wrong, let me know.
Continuing to your comment at 277, I couldn't agree more. There are, indeed, two forms of Capitalism. They are, 1. Capitalism, and 2. Predatory Capitalism.
Number 1 is a near perfect system, number 2 is utter shite and breeds greed, envy, cheating, stealing, et al.
Go watch It's a Wonderful Life. Peter Bailey's little Building and Loan, and the way he treats and views his customers and employees, and also holds disdain for the "Big Corporation" embodied by Mr. Potter, is in my opinion the embodiment of the perfect business and Capitalism the way it should be. It's Compassionate Capitalism. It's a real thing, and exists in America far, far more than the bullshit you read about the "big corporate boys" doing over here.
There's 30 million small businesses in America, Dave. I'd bet you at least 60% to 65% of them are run well, they care about their employees, treat them with respect, and look out for the well being those employees as best they can. I know a bunch of small business owners, and not a single one of them are profiteering shitheads. They work hard and expect a decent living, while taking care of their employees in a fair manner if the employees put in an honest day's work. Capitalism works. It dies when the Corporatists get their greedy hands in the game.
Oh and yes, I agree with you. America breeds Predatory Capitalism. We do it better than anyone else by far in my opinion. And it's disgusting.
So we agree on a few things! And I do think you've meant to address your comments towards James Flynn at 273. That wasn't me who called the English MFers.
Please, duly note for the record.
287 Posted 13/10/2020 at 22:19:37
"While Parry would have us applaud the largesse of certain American businessmen, it seems he is not so keen on that of others. In what seemed like a particularly riveting episode of Dragons Den, reports have emerged alleging that the EFL chairman turned down a £375m offer from an American investment firm for a 20% stake in the league last Friday. Whats more, the Times claims he rejected the offer without consulting all member clubs, in much the same way as he has been cheerleading for Operation Big Picture without asking for the thoughts of all those whose interests he is tasked with serving."
288 Posted 13/10/2020 at 22:40:22
The guy didn't look at a £375 million offer?
So the assumption is (yes, yes, I know, ass - u - me) this EFL chairman is on the kickback take of Project Shit Pic and ignored that amount of money for his member Clubs?
Is it any wonder we despair? Fucking seriously man, what people will do for money! Whatever happened to the days of a few lines of coke and some prostitutes to corruptly seal a deal? Now dudes are ignoring £375 million??!!!
I need a drink.
289 Posted 13/10/2020 at 22:42:19
One more win and it could be a 1st round tie at Sunderland!
290 Posted 13/10/2020 at 22:43:33
it's cold on the outside, eh?
291 Posted 13/10/2020 at 22:45:34
Maybe Rick Parry will pay for that window.
292 Posted 13/10/2020 at 22:46:37
Like, what do they say? C'mon you Mariners? Up the Fk Marine? COYY? Crosby has one team?
And a broken window in one of the neighbouring houses from a wild clearance.
That ^^ is brilliant.
Bring on Sunderland!
293 Posted 13/10/2020 at 22:51:56
294 Posted 14/10/2020 at 00:58:24
Pete, please send a photo of the broken window. I fantasized about that when I was there.
And good work inviting Jamie. He DEFINITELY needs to meet Joe.
295 Posted 14/10/2020 at 01:57:18
Firstly, nobody seems to be talking about the TV proposal. Each club can broadcast up to 8 games directly to its own fan base each season. Isn't that really what they have been after for years?
The overall TV deals will plummet in value when they don't include the really big games which will be siphoned off by the clubs to themselves with them keeping 100% of the broadcast revenues from their own TV channels. That means a much smaller pie to spread around the league anyway.
Also, Martin Samuel's ‘basic maths‘ rant seems flawed. If the 9 need a majority of 6 then 6 can't outvote the 3 ‘patsies' (us, Southampton and West Ham) as that's only a majority of 3. You'd need 8 to outvote 1 or 7 to 1 with an abstention to get a majority of 6.
296 Posted 14/10/2020 at 07:29:01
One thing about the film always upsets me though. although Bailey gets rescued by his brother and friends he never gets the money back that the dodgy banker stole! Says it all really.
297 Posted 14/10/2020 at 08:09:48
More stuff is emerging from sources like the FA, threats of breakaway leagues etc, that make this whole thing sound ever more dubious.
Why am I not surprised?
298 Posted 14/10/2020 at 09:11:19
That win by Marine is a bit of a lifeline, financially... they do get a nice bonus for getting into the next round don't they?
I bet you get as much enjoyment at Marine's games as you do watching Everton. I hope they keep going and get a nice draw further on, although with no crowds they might not get the financial rewards of the past. Best wishes. Peter, I hope you are doing okay.
299 Posted 14/10/2020 at 09:19:53
It wasn't shown for over 2 years after it was made, regarded as too sentimental at the time. Maybe it was... but showed how wonderful people can be as well.
300 Posted 14/10/2020 at 10:07:38
301 Posted 14/10/2020 at 10:22:07
There would be 9 LTSs so only 6 votes required.
302 Posted 14/10/2020 at 10:32:15
303 Posted 14/10/2020 at 10:37:42
I have a great affection for Marine, although it is not quite the same deep emotional bond I have with Everton. I would say you see a much more honest game at the lower level, its difficult for players to be prima-donnas when the fans are only a couple of feet away, and every comment can be heard.
And you can have a chat with club officials, who are working desperately to keep their club alive, a world away from the greed that is the subject of this thread.
There is no lack of skill either. On Saturday Marines Josh Hmami scored a pearler of a free kick from the penalty area D, curled over the wall and into the goalies top right corner. So it was no surprise to see him do the exact same thing after 3 minutes last night. And when a Marine fan gave the Nantwich goalie a bit of stick for letting it in, the goalie turned round, gave a rueful grin and said back “I knew where it was going to go, I just couldnt get there!”.
Best wishes to you and your family.
304 Posted 14/10/2020 at 10:41:13
305 Posted 14/10/2020 at 10:52:52
I see there's an org called Everton Supporters Trust 1878. Don't know anything about its standing or similar Everton-related fan organisations.
306 Posted 14/10/2020 at 11:25:41
Not sure wholl take any notice but worth five minutes of your time
307 Posted 14/10/2020 at 13:55:19
I hope you get a lot more fun out of Marine this season Peter, still owe you a good drink,this virus is making it hard for me to get you one.
308 Posted 14/10/2020 at 16:51:51
Anyway another film I think has passed the test of time Is Trading places, never tire of seeing that film, especially around xmas time, ok we get the bonus of Jamie Lee Curtis to warm us up, but another film that gives you that yes factor when they out do the rich brothers at the end.
309 Posted 14/10/2020 at 16:56:26
310 Posted 14/10/2020 at 18:06:27
311 Posted 14/10/2020 at 18:11:28
312 Posted 14/10/2020 at 18:37:36
Thanks for making me laugh during these testing times.
Compassionate capitalism? It doesn't, and never has, existed as capitalism depends on extracting surplus value from employees and, wherever possible, exploiting consumers.. The nearest thing to compassionate capitalism is worker and consumer co-operatives (some excellent examples of utility and housing co-operatives in the US).
Our own club is a perfect example. We left Anfield because the landlord, the Tory Alderman and senior Orangeman, Houlding, was a predatory capitalist who wanted to screw the mainly liberal Everton committee over rent and attempted to secure a monopoly for sales of his own brewery's alcohol at the ground.
From the very beginning, right up to modern times, Everton's ownership was spread amongst many small shareholders rather than one person, or group, like the RS.
Capitalism died it's death during the banking crash, a decade ago. What we see now is state funded capitalism, a form of socialism for capitalists!
Good to see Keane and D C-L aren't starting, tonight!
313 Posted 14/10/2020 at 18:37:49
314 Posted 14/10/2020 at 19:03:10
Apologies forgetting your name wrong!
315 Posted 14/10/2020 at 19:15:43
316 Posted 14/10/2020 at 19:20:42
So glad the sulking cartel/cabal have been humiliated; and this time off the pitch. They yet again score own goals that only serve to make them even more hated and theyve been plotting this for three years.
Common sense prevails over ‘self self self and ‘money, money, money, but there was that ‘generous begrudging gesture to the Football League, just to show how much we care.
They will be back with something else but they will never get their top-6 control the fate of every other league club.
We must, however, do something for the ‘lower leagues. The ‘Posh chairman was extremely articulate and considerate on 5Live on Monday night and he predicts the first FL clubs will fold inside six weeks.
317 Posted 14/10/2020 at 19:24:07
318 Posted 14/10/2020 at 19:55:24
I used to tell him the worst thing he ever did was win the scholarship,if he had stayed in St, Nicks, in the city centre, he would have played for Liverpool Boys and possibly been picked up by Liverpool, Ben was a Red.
I know he was well liked by Marine fans and the club itself and he was there for a few years and gave them good service, strength and determination and quite a few goals.
319 Posted 14/10/2020 at 20:02:39
320 Posted 14/10/2020 at 20:12:31
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