Everton vs Manchester City Postponed

Monday, 28 December, 2020 861comments  |  Jump to last

Everton are seeking full disclosure from the Premier League after their clash with Manchester City was postponed at late notice due to an outbreak of the coronavirus in the City squad.

The injury-ravaged Blues were due to face the former champions just 46 hours after the final whistle of their 1-0 win over Sheffield United, but will now get more time to prepare for the visit of West Ham on New Year's Day.

The club were informed but not consulted following a Premier League Board meeting that the match will not be going ahead after further tests of the Citizens' staff revealed more positive tests for the virus. Gabriel Jesus and Kyle Walker were already in self-quarantine after testing positive themselves over the weekend.

An alternative date for the fixture will be announced in due course.

A statement from Everton was issued this evening that concluded:

"Whilst Everton will always have public safety uppermost, we will be requesting full disclosure of all the information that Manchester City provided to the Premier League so the Club can be clear on why this decision was taken."


Match Preview

Everton face a resurgent Manchester City at Goodison Park as they look to close out 2020 with another “big six” scalp. The Toffees have defied all expectations by winning four successive Premier League matches to move up to second place in the table but their new-found defensive solidity will be put to the ultimate test by Pep Guardiola's fluid, ball-playing side.

Since losing 2-0 at Tottenham, a result that left them sitting in 13th place, City are unbeaten, have won four out of six, conceded just once and risen to fifth in the Premier League, three points behind Everton with a game in hand.

They'll come to Merseyside in ominous form again but Guardiola has a decision to make over Sergio Aguero, a player whom he has committed to protect and “be careful with” on his return to the fold following an injury lay-off but will be needed in the absence of Gabriel Jesus. Both the Brazilian and Kyle Walker are in self-isolation after testing positive for the Coronavirus which leaves City short of options up front.

Everton, meanwhile, will once again be without star quartet James Rodriguez (calf), Allan (hamstring), Lucas Digne (ankle) and Richarlison (concussion), leaving Carlo Ancelotti with decisions to make of his own. The Italian went with a strong side at Bramall Lane, opting not to rest some of his over-worked players like Michael Keane, Abdoulaye Doucouré and Dominic Calvert-Lewin, but he will need to balance the need for rest with the task facing him against the former Champions from along the M62.

Seamus Coleman's return to fitness allows for at least once change to the back four, although the fact that Michael Keane was relieved of duty with half an hour to go against the Blades means the almost indispensable centre-half could start once again, perhaps alongside Yerry Mina who has also been in excellent form or in partnership with Mason Holgate who offers more pace on the ground against very mobile opposition.

Anthony Gordon had a hard time making headway in very difficult conditions in South Yorkshire on Boxing Day but could get another chance to impress as Richarlison's deputy while up front, Ancelotti may wait for Richarlison to return before resting Calvert-Lewin.

This is a fixture that hasn't been kind to the Toffees since they trounced City 4-0 in January 2016. Indeed, Guardiola's team have won all three meetings between the two sides at Goodison since, 3-1, 2-0 and 3-1. And the difficulty that Everton have had against teams that like to play through the lines at times this season means that the emphasis will very much be on concentration and keeping things tight at the back and trying to be efficient with chances that fall their way at the other end.

Another victory would be massive and the kind of result that will have more heads outside the Everton bubble turning and wondering what this team can achieve this season, particularly when their best players start returning to fitness.

Ancelotti's feet remain on the ground and he has rightly played down his team's chances of remaining in the position they currently occupy, saying: “We are really pleased to be second. We didn't expect that at the start of the season but we are there and we want to stay there.

"We are really pleased to be there but I think our target doesn't change. There is a lot of competition in the Premier League, a lot of good teams, and we are happy to be second now but our target is to reach a European position and to play in Europe next season, it doesn't change.”

The manager will be taking it one game at a time, particularly when they're coming as thick and fast as they currently are.

Kick-off: 8pm, Monday 28 December 2020 on Amazon Prime
Referee: Martin Atkinson
VAR: Mike Dean
Last Time: Everton 1 - 3 Manchester City

Predicted Line-up: Pickford, Coleman, Keane, Mina, Godfrey, Davies, Doucouré, Sigurdsson, Gordon, Iwobi, Calvert-Lewin

 

Reader Comments (861)

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Jay Harris
1 Posted 27/12/2020 at 19:25:25
Man City are not looking great this season and like us are grinding out results rather than bordering teams.

Kyle Walker and Jesus will be big missed for them.

It's a shame Richarlisn can't play.

Based on yesterday I would be tempted to play Bernard in front of Gordon who seemed very uncertain.

Keep Tom in midfield and give him a run until Gbamin or Allan is ready

Dave Lynch
2 Posted 27/12/2020 at 19:31:47
City are starting to click imo.
Scoring has been their big problem, they always have loads of possession.
Sterling is a big plus for them as well, they are suspect at the back but do we have the fire power to exploit that?
Paul McCoy
3 Posted 27/12/2020 at 19:31:49
Absolutely ludicrous that we're having to play with so little rest whilst some of our title rivals get a full 72 hours.

If I was Carlo I'd be injecting some fresh legs in the form of Coleman and Nkounkou, with Bernard on the left. Can't see a win, but then I didn't think we'd take points off Leicester or Chelsea so what do I know!

Gavin Johnson
4 Posted 27/12/2020 at 19:33:43
I'll be very happy if we can grind out a point form this one. Shame that we'll still be without Richie.
Thomas Richards
5 Posted 27/12/2020 at 19:44:47
Rob,

We need cover in the forward position.
Wide right and a right back would be great.
I havent seen much of him so cant judge. What do you reckon on Aarons from Norwich?

Bill Gienapp
6 Posted 27/12/2020 at 20:03:31
City look far less formidable this season, but of course it's rotten timing, with less than 48 hours rest, a tired squad and too many injuries to rotate adequately. Just have to keep grinding away.

This match, along with the next three - West Ham, Wolves and Aston Villa - make for a tricky quartet that will tell us a lot about where we stand.

Brian Murray
7 Posted 27/12/2020 at 20:09:34
Rob post 5 should he go ! Didn’t know he’d arrived
Paul Kernot
8 Posted 27/12/2020 at 20:18:20
Win, lose or draw tomorrow, I'm just hoping there are no more injuries caused by fatigue. Half way through the season & we're looking great but the squad is dangerously thin to be playing so many games in quick succession. Sheffield Utd had a couple of half decent chances yesterday without the quality to put them away. All 3 mentioned by Bill #7 certainly do have that quality.
Rob Halligan
9 Posted 27/12/2020 at 20:20:13
Thomas, to be honest, I haven't got a clue about him. Didn't see anything of him last season. It seems he is highly regarded by various media outlets though.
Jason Wilkinson
10 Posted 27/12/2020 at 20:28:39
I don't go along with the recovery nonsense. A lot said we looked tired against Man Utd. I just thought we didnt get a foothold in the game. Playing with injuries is a different matter. Obviously time between games is more important.

We seem to get more injuries in training so I for one am happy to see us us playing matches rather than training. Pundits (ex pros) always go on about match fitness.

You can't have it both ways. If players are not fit enough to play twice in a week, what do they do in training?

Brian Murray
11 Posted 27/12/2020 at 20:30:48
By all accounts, Stones has matured and is less erratic but I'm sure Calvert-Lewin has the beating of him, especially in the air, as long as he's not isolated. We have no runners to help him. Shame Digne is not ready for left midfield to at least give him quality to feed on.
Tony Abrahams
12 Posted 27/12/2020 at 20:37:53
I’d play Holgate, next to Davies, and Doucoure, in a midfield three, and Coleman in front of Kenny, with Bernard on the opposite side!

Paul Birmingham
13 Posted 27/12/2020 at 20:48:24
This is a tough match for Everton but also City too.

The focus and desire was consistent at Brammall Lane, and id stick with the team that started except swap Bernard for Gordon.

It’s in the mindset but hopefully Everton, can take the chances tomorrow night that they make, and grind on, over this Festive fixture list.

Patrick McFarlane
14 Posted 27/12/2020 at 20:51:40
It's such a shame that we haven't got a full complement of players to choose from, as I'm sure we'd give City a game if we did - I expect that given the players we have standing, it will be another 'they shalt not pass' game with the aim of keeping City at bay for as long as possible and hopefully nick something from a set-piece.
Mike Keating
15 Posted 27/12/2020 at 20:55:35
What’s the point of a website for fans if posts get deleted for no apparent reason?
Without an obvious thread a couple of us have raised the possibility that Tosun might be off to Fireman Sam’s latest rescue package!
Why take it out?
Robert Tressell
16 Posted 27/12/2020 at 20:59:40
It's surely the same starting line up as last time but with Bernard for Gordon and Coleman for Holgate. Not very exciting / innovative but there you go. Gordon, Gomes and Holgate may well come on to provide fresh legs. Hopefully everyone still has some gas in the tank. I'll be amazed if we see Nkounkou but who knows?
Kevin Molloy
17 Posted 27/12/2020 at 21:00:13
The key game for me is not tomorrow but Friday. I hope he rests Calvert-Lewin, Doucouré, Mina, Coleman and Gylfi. I want them all fresh for later on, and I don't think they will be if they play tomorrow.
Ian Riley
18 Posted 27/12/2020 at 21:01:58
The amount of games in such a short period helps clubs with bigger squads. You can not prepare properly and just hope no more players get injured.

I said weeks ago city are due a big win. Please not tomorrow!! They are coming into form but you never know?

Tony Everan
20 Posted 27/12/2020 at 21:16:34
I am sure there will be some rotating for this game to try to keep us strong and up for it physically. There will be a lot of hard graft and closing down needed to get a result.

Tom Davies is fresh and is playing well, Bernard looked as fit as I've ever seen him and ready to produce some good form. Those two will start.

The defence has been excellent and Holgate, Godfrey and Mina are young so they can take it. Keane has been excellent and surely will start too.

Sigurdsson has ran his socks off these last few weeks and could need a rest to recover with this match coming so soon. Worried still about Gomes but he played a bit better last night and is fresh. If Olsen is fit I prefer him to Pickford, he just feels like a safer, more controlled keeper. Pickford gives me the collywobbles. In reality, it's probably a marginal call.

Calvert-Lewin needs a rest but Tosun isn't good enough to replace Dominic and will weaken us too much to be considered. I am hoping he can go back to Turkey in January and we can get better back up for Calvert-Lewin on a loan for 6 months, then assess this position in June.

Olsen
Holgate Keane Mina Godfrey
Iwobi Doucouré Davies Gomes Bernard*
Calvert-Lewin

Give Bernard a free role and licence to play on the left and come inside to link up play.

Lee Courtliff
21 Posted 27/12/2020 at 21:17:34
Does anyone know when Richarlison will be available again?

What's the protocol on concussion? 1 week? 2 weeks out?

Will Mabon
22 Posted 27/12/2020 at 21:24:49
Lee -


Link

If I read it right, it would be a minimum of six days out.

Robert Williams
23 Posted 27/12/2020 at 21:26:56
KM 17. Sorry Kevin, I disagree. I think tomorrow is the defining moment of our season, that and the RS away game when it comes.

We have already pitted ourselves against the majority of the "Sly darlings' — did I just say Sly? Well you know who I mean!

City are not the City of last year nor are we the Everton of past years, things are a-changing and the way recent matches have fallen in our favour it seems like an omen, as if it is our year, for something.

Let's not be afraid of City, Carlo has been criticised for 'cowardice' I don't think rolling over is in his vocabulary, but I do think he boxes clever at times and tends to roll with the punches.

A win tomorrow will be a massive three points that'll have everyone sitting up and taking notice. Let's hope the ref and VAR don't fuck things up!!

Thomas Richards
24 Posted 27/12/2020 at 21:27:15
Thanks Rob.
Lee Courtliff
25 Posted 27/12/2020 at 21:31:04
Cheers, Will.

Yeah, 6 days, mate. He'll be available for West Ham on Friday...if there's no complications.

Danny Broderick
26 Posted 27/12/2020 at 21:40:25
To be honest, I'm not expecting anything from us tomorrow. We've been let down in big games too many times by this set of players. Even last week against Man Utd, we were woeful for 30 minutes until we settled down. We didn't play well against Sheffield Utd, but thankfully we managed to score in one of our few attacks.

Ancelloti has got us playing in a good solid shape at the moment. While concentrating on the defence though, we've forgotten how to attack. Calvert-Lewin is on his own up front getting no service.

I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect we'd need a full complement of players to beat Man City. Not having Digne, Allan, Richarlison or Rodriguez will probably be a step too far against them. I'm just hoping for a good performance, and that we remember how to pass the ball when we are going forward. If we can do that, we will get up the pitch and relieve the pressure on the defence. If we don't, it will be a long 90 minutes.

Tony Twist
27 Posted 27/12/2020 at 21:42:32
I think we need our reliable back four of Holgate, Keane, Mina, Godfrey. Olsen as goalkeeper, Iwobi on the right, Gordon on the left (how else is he going to be match fit), Siggy (can't believe I am picking him but he's not done anything wrong recently) playing virtually up front and Calvert-Lewin. Keep it tight Everton, that's the most important thing even if we are at home. Best of luck blues.
Patrick McFarlane
28 Posted 27/12/2020 at 21:48:27
Danny #26,

Results of big games we've played this season:

Spurs – Won
Liverpool – Drew
Arsenal – Won
Chelsea – Won
Leicester City – Won
Manchester United unfortunately are the only major team that Everton have met so far, that Everton have let themselves down against.

If that ratio is to continue into the second part of the season, I'll be delighted. Who knows what will happen tomorrow, Everton might sneak a win, or Man City might tonk us. Let's just see what happens as every game is different and, although the odds are against an Everton victory, it doesn't mean that it's written in stone, as the results above highlight.

Bobby Mallon
29 Posted 27/12/2020 at 21:49:24
My team for tomorrow:

Olsen
Coleman
Holgate
Branthwaite
Godfrey
Nkounkou
Davies
Doucouré
Bernard
Iwobi
Tosun.

Subs: Calvert-Lewin, Keane, Mina, Pickford, Sigurdsson, Gordon etc.

Tom Bowers
30 Posted 27/12/2020 at 21:52:12
City's missing players won't be a problem for them.

Our guys really need to be totally switched on for this game as we know they can make you dizzy with their passing game.

It will be tough to get a result after that grind in the torrential rain at Sheffield but we can hope City have an off day like they did against Albion.

Jason Wilkinson
32 Posted 27/12/2020 at 21:57:23
Man City will play with their full-backs providing width. I think we might see Ancelotti revert to a back 3/5. Bernard & DCL given the task of being the "out" on the counter-attack. I predict the following starting 11:

Pickford, Mina, Holgate, Keane, Coleman, Godfrey. Davies, Gomes. Iwobi, Calvert-Lewin, Bernard.

City don't tend to blitz teams with pace. It is about prodding and probing to get an overload. If we defend as well as we have in the last four Premier League games City will get frustrated. We will have to take our chances on the break and make the most of any set-piece play.

Neil Lawson
33 Posted 27/12/2020 at 22:03:45
Ancellotti's conundrum. I reckon that if he read this thread that he would do something different just to be contrary and to prove he is the boss!!

I haven't a clue what 11 he will pick and, from previous history, there is little point in suggesting or trying to guess. Just hope Aguero doesn't start.

David Pearl
34 Posted 27/12/2020 at 22:05:47
I think with the sub against Sheff, Carlo hinted at Coleman, Holgate, Keane, Godfrey at the back.

In midfield Davies must keep his place. Doucouré, Sigurdsson and lwobi must also battle on, and Bernard has to play after Gordon didn't show. Leaving Dom to lead the line again.

Perhaps Bernard can try to assist him in getting back amongst the goals in another hard fought 1-0 win. Well it is Christmas. Coybb

Adrian and Maureen Ronan
35 Posted 27/12/2020 at 22:07:51
Our strengths might be our aerial power at set-pieces as Man City are no great shakes with Keane and Mina playing so well at the minute.

But this game will be won or lost if we can control De Bruyne. He makes City tick and I'm afraid Tom will be too slow and just not cute enough to deal with him. I'd love to see:

Olsen,
Coleman, Keane, Mina, Godfrey.
Holgate, Doucouré, Gomes.
Bernard, Calvert-Lewin, Iwobi.

Can we beat them? Yes. Why not? We are Everton!

Michael Kenrick
36 Posted 27/12/2020 at 22:15:26
Sorry, Mike, I moved your comment about Tosun, Fat Sam and West Brom to the Premier League – Round 15 thread, where there was already a lot of talk about two of the three.
Danny Broderick
37 Posted 27/12/2020 at 22:17:56
Patrick (28),

Some of those games were at the start of the season. We are having a great season if you look at where we are in the league, but at the moment we are without 4 of our best players.

We've won the last 4 league games by being solid, not by playing brilliantly. We limped over the line against Chelsea and Sheffield Utd. Man City are better than both of those teams.

I hope we catch them on an off day. And I hope we can raise our levels to beat them. But it's going to be tough if we perform like we have been performing in the last 3 or 4 games.

Even against an out-of-sorts Arsenal, we were hanging on at the end. The lack of rest won't help us either. I'll be keeping everything crossed but I'm not confident going into this one.

Martin Berry
38 Posted 27/12/2020 at 22:18:40
How much longer are clubs going to put up with this fixture madness?

It's a game that we could win via set-pieces and I think Calvert-Lewin or Yerry Mina could cause City real problems.

1-0 Everton!

Brian Wilkinson
39 Posted 27/12/2020 at 22:26:24
With all the results in, it gives us a free hit tomorrow. When I saw the December fixture list, I feared the worst... All this without, Digne, Coleman, Allan, Rodriguez and Richarlison as well, is nothing short of unbelievable.

I have a feeling Tosun will either go out on loan or be let go for a nominal fee. With the players to come back into the team, we certainly need to bring a striker in.

In the meantime, we need to keep in the hunt and kick on the second half of the season> No need to panic and bring in more players in January, unless of course we let players go the other way. A striker will do just fine for now.

Anyway, keep it tight tomorrow and we might just get our reward.

Andrew Bentley
40 Posted 27/12/2020 at 22:35:12
I don't see Gordon starting this game. To be fair to the lad, he doesn't look like he's got any confidence at all when he plays and has been abysmal whenever I've seen him this season. A loan out in the New Year may do him some good to get some regular football ahead of next season as he is clearly rated by those at the club but it's not working for him at the moment.

Bernard will probably start instead of him as he did well against Sheffield Utd when he played. Although I would be tempted by Nkounkou being played on the left to see what a natural left-footer with pace could offer. With Godfrey behind, it would help them both.

Thomas Richards
41 Posted 27/12/2020 at 22:41:44
Andrew,

He doesn't need a loan, he just needs to bulk up. That will come.

I've watched this lad play many times. He's not ready yet but I'm telling you, he is one serious footballer. Unbelievable vision, sees passes and space that kids of his age don't usually do. Touch of an angel on the ball.

Repeating myself. He's not ready.

Andy Meighan
42 Posted 27/12/2020 at 22:52:15
No way can he change the back 4 – they've all been brilliant. Midfield is a tough ask given the quality they've got but, and it's a big 'but', we just cannot afford to rest players. Out of the Carabao Cup and no European competition to think of, our players should be fresh.

I don't buy into this rotation lark. Players want to play when they're winning you can't wait to get out there. Mark my word there's nothing for us to be worried about. Tough game yes Winnable definitely.
.

Ciarán McGlone
43 Posted 27/12/2020 at 22:53:55
Bernard deserves a start. Other than that... no change.

I'd be tempted to play proper full-backs but I'm conflicted.

Lyndon Lloyd
44 Posted 27/12/2020 at 23:09:12
The more I think about it, the more I believe Bernard will start, actually. I also believe he deserves to but my predicted teams are always attempts to guess at what the manager will do rather than what I want.
Tony Hill
45 Posted 27/12/2020 at 23:21:33
That fucking idiot, Atkinson, is the ref. And the other fucking idiot, Dean, is on VAR.

No worries.

Gary Willock
46 Posted 27/12/2020 at 23:35:15
Keep it consistent:

Pickford
Holgate Mina Keane Godfrey
Davies Sigurdsson, Doucouré
Iwobi Calvert-Lewin Bernard

4 of them can have a break when the injured get back in 2-3 weeks.

Mark Wilson
47 Posted 27/12/2020 at 23:56:55
After an amazing set of results, and the even more amazing sight of us taking advantage of them, the Man City game feels like one of those moments when a win assumes massive impact and yes, a draw would actually be far from a setback. A draw unusually still equals momentum in these circumstances.

So I'd go for a very tight setup that can frustrate City's pace men but still offer the chance of a goal. Maybe two but I'm still giddy from the Sheffield Utd rubbish performance yet 3 points. My team:

Olsen
Holgate
Keane
Mina
Godfrey

Coleman
Doucouré
Davies
Bernard
Sigurdsson

Calvert-Lewin

Right side very solid, Coleman in front of Holgate sounds weird but then so did playing a series of games with no fullbacks. Coleman offers impact and service to Calvert-Lewin. He also gives cover in midfield.

Left side less solid as Bernard will wander and not track back a lot, but his width could give City's right a bit to do.

Doucouré needs to be Allan and Davies needs to repeat his Bramhall Lane form and he's fresh enough.

Sigurdsson has to be closer to Calvert-Lewin who frankly worries me a bit as he must be shattered but who else is there? Here's another example of a weak squad as Tosun just doesn't have anyone's confidence, nice chap that he is. I thought Simms was worth a huge punt but not vs City with Laporte and Stones.

Not quite sure what to expect from City this season but we have to be right at it to get something from this one. Imagine what a win would do for the season!

Andy Peers
48 Posted 27/12/2020 at 00:00:41
COYB
Brian Wilkinson
49 Posted 27/12/2020 at 00:08:48
Daft as it sounds, I would be tempted to have Calvert Lewin on the bench to start with – hear me out before the "You what??!"

Keep Man City tight early doors, then bring Calvert-Lewin on around the 60-minute mark, he will be chomping at the bit and allows us an extra deploy in the second half.

The question is, who do we play in attack, asking a lot of Tosun, not sure any of the others could be a makeshift No 9.

Chances are we will be on the backfoot early doors. If we can pack the midfield and keep it tight, then go for the kill second half. Might just work.

Other than that, I am out of ideas. Calvert-Lewin needs some recovery time before we burn him out.

Ian Horan
50 Posted 28/12/2020 at 00:37:30
Need to keep it solid, same back four. Davies siting in front of defence. Seamus on right wing. Gomes Duke and Nkounkou left wing.

Iwobi and Bernard up top; no centre-froward. Iwobi and Bernard as two false No 9s.

Calvert-Lewin, with Sigurdsson for the last 20 minutes.

I would look to rest players against Rotherham in the FA Cup. Can't make my mind up which keeper, though... to be fair, my team selection is influenced by JD and Coke.

Jerome Shields
51 Posted 28/12/2020 at 00:41:35
I actually think that Everton are for suited to playing Man City than Sheffield United.
Brian Wilkinson
52 Posted 28/12/2020 at 00:51:37
Same here, Ian, with my thought processing.

Must be a JD and Coke thing.

Jim Harrison
53 Posted 28/12/2020 at 01:01:20
Sod it. Tough game with fit squad.

Chuck on Besic, Bolasie and Nkounkou.

Rest Doucouré and Keane. Bernard to replace Bolasie in the second half. Enough in that team to grind a draw.

Strong team for West Ham.

Jamie Crowley
54 Posted 28/12/2020 at 01:02:32
Don't tinker, don't try to “out-think the room”.

Same back four. Don't mess with what is working.

Sigurdsson, Davies, Doucouré, Iwobi, Bernard in midfield.

Play hard, sub tired players.

Leave the pitch satisfied a Blues team gave it's all, win or loss.

TYVM. Simples.

Derek Knox
55 Posted 28/12/2020 at 01:12:05
As many posts have rightly stated, Man City are a different animal than they were say 18 months ago, not quite sure why, because they have mostly the same personnel with a couple of additions.

Having said that, it doesn't make a win a foregone conclusion, especially now that Aguerro is back. He seems from what I have witnessed, is almost back to his lethal best. If we stay close and don't give them too much respect, as with any side really, we will be capable of getting something.

I was amazed at the turn-around in form of Davies, who has so often misplaced passes, and played sideways, backwards, but rarely forward. Let's hope he carries on from where he left off at Bramhall Lane.

I expect some rotation, but hopefully not too many changes as it seems to be too disruptive when we appear to be finding some sort of consistency. At least we have the advantage of limited home support, which must give the players an added lift.

Luckily the holiday fixture list has been fairly kind to us this year and results thus far have fallen kindly for us too. Any team who was mathematically capable of keeping on our shirt tails or indeed leapfrogging us, have had a favourable outcome for us. Let's not alter that good statistic, and give City a robust challenge.

COYB

Mike Gaynes
56 Posted 28/12/2020 at 01:15:11
I expect nothing from this game. City's depth vastly surpasses ours and I think the less-than-two-day turnaround for our more knackered players will be too much.

I expect to see Holgate slide into the middle in place of Mina, who was utterly exhausted after Saturday. If he's good to go, Mark's lineup at #47 suits me. Agreed that Bernard should start, if only based on history -- he scored the greatest goal of his career against Man City for Shakhtar in the Champions League. Sigurdsson is probably the most tired of all, but there's nobody to step into his place. COYB indeed, but I'm tightly managing my expectations.

Attention Yanks... the game is on Peacock, not NBCSN, which is carrying Leicester City vs Crystal Palace and Chelsea vs Aston Villa, while the best game of the day is online. Stupid.

Jamie Crowley
57 Posted 28/12/2020 at 01:23:08
Mike -

Firstly thank you for the heads up. Peacock it is.

Secondly, I sadly concur. I expect nothing from this game. Math and the law of averages hint there won’t be a fifth in a row win. I don’t like how we match up against Man City. If we win, we actually solidify a Top 4 place half way through the season which is amazing. None of it adds up to anything I’ve known to be “Everton”.

But I watch full of hope, on Peacock.

Barry Hall
58 Posted 28/12/2020 at 01:30:28
Not expecting much from this game either. One point would make me very happy. I’d like to see Bernard in the lineup I’m not big on criticizing players, but I am sure my kids must think iwobi’s first name is “damnit” hearing me watch the last few games.
Nicholas Howard
59 Posted 28/12/2020 at 01:33:44
Paul McCoy(3)

It is true that this season indeed is a very strange one.
Like earlier on, Liverpool couldn't beat lowly West Brom at home.

Yeap... what do we know??

Don Alexander
60 Posted 28/12/2020 at 01:46:33
Two weeks ago, West Brom took a point off them at Man City's place. There were no goals in the second half.

City are stuffed full of ego's, mostly looking out for themselves, as ever, whilst having no heart for a battle royal (Blue!), especially on a cold winter night in front of 2,000 berserk scousers.

'Nuff said – believe in yourselves as true professionals do – and get the points.

Derek Knox
61 Posted 28/12/2020 at 01:53:28
Barry @ 58, it's a good job that your kids are not around me on most televised matches, they would think his name was 'Richard or Detritus Head'.

Although, having said that, he has shown signs of why he commanded such a high fee recently, but too inconsistently for me.

Apologies to any Richards or Dicks who may be reading, nothing personal, but you know it's part of the 'frustrated supporter's vernacular'! :-)

Lester Yip
62 Posted 28/12/2020 at 01:58:48
I think it's a more straight forward game than against the Blades. We've got a good run so the confidence is high. Our defensive formation has been working well. So let them have possession and work hard to break us down while we wait for counter-attack and set-piece opportunity.

Tony Byrne
63 Posted 28/12/2020 at 02:13:07
When you're winning, the next game can't come soon enough, though 46 hours is a piss-take! Liverpool seem to have a lot more rest in between games than most in the league?

Against Man City, it's gonna be such a tough game. You just never know, though. If we take the lead, I think mentally, we are much stronger under Carlo.

I think if we are winning, we can see it out; it's the ultimate test of our squad.

I'm sick of hearing of the media darlings' "injury list", the antics of Klopp on the sidelines against WBA were quite embarrassing, but he knew what was coming!

Just have a minute as an Evertonian, the absolute nonsense we've put up with, for what seems like decades (it is actually) just dream like Leicester did & maybe just for once in a lifetime, we could do the impossible.

Start dreaming at 8pm tonight... who knows, eh?

Barry Hall
64 Posted 28/12/2020 at 02:26:30
Derek, I hope it doesn't come up but I am sure I will be chuckling a bit at your comment tomorrow if an Iwobi cross goes long... :) Won't tell the kids why.

Derek Knox
65 Posted 28/12/2020 at 02:46:44
Tony @ 63, yes a couple of good points there, confidence comes from winning, but it is also important not to let over-confidence become complacency, which it is so easy to do, 'Superman Syndrome' which is good until you run out of phone boxes.

I know Pep will have noticed our recent results and performances, coupled with the respect he has for Carlo, but he also knows his charges are not firing on all cylinders, and haven't been for some time.

When you look at their recent results, they do appear to be getting back on track slowly, but are not the side they were not too long ago. It was only less that a fortnight ago that they played the Baggies (Boing Boing!) at the Etihad and drew 1-1.

That may not seem significant, but WBA were really struggling for points, and generally not playing well, but for some reason that result exacerbated Bilic's termination as Manager.

So it wasn't a Guardiola v Lardiola contest, who today again helped us indirectly by drawing at Mordor, pretty much due to parking the bus in order to frustrate the already frustrated Klopp.

I am not extolling Allardyce in any way shape or form, but at least he is partly repaying the money he undeservedly got as compensation, from his unpopular and retrospectively panic driven appointment with us.

Ajay Gopal
66 Posted 28/12/2020 at 05:21:09
Players like DCL, Mina, Keane, Siggy, Iwobi must be knackered. Pulling out Keane, Davies and Gordon early last game suggests that Carlo wanted them to be given a breather, so they will play. I thought Gordon did well as a very brief substitute on the right side against Arsenal? So, Gordon on the right to rest Iwobi with Bernard on the left in place of Richarlison. DCL unfortunately is indispensable, so he has to play. Hopefully he will get a breather when Richarlison comes back rested and recovered. I would also play Gomes in place of Siggy. Godfrey gives Doucoure a break in midfield.

Pickford
Coleman Holgate Keane Branthwaite
Davies Godfrey Gomes
Gordon DCL Bernard

Subs: Olsen, Kenny, Nkounkou, Tosun, etc..

Steve Brown
67 Posted 28/12/2020 at 05:37:49
Ancelotti will rotate the team for this game, targeting WHU as a more likely 3 points. DCL in particular needs a break - if he pulls a hamstring we are screwed.

Olsen
Coleman Holgate Mina Godfrey
Davies Doucouré Gomes
Iwobi Tosun Bernard.

David Woodworth
68 Posted 28/12/2020 at 06:57:27
The usual moaners about not having a big enough squad and players being tired.
Granted we have our injuries, unfortunately the replacements who we need to stand in up front are not good enough.
Until we ship out some more and trim the wage bill,it’s make do.
Yes I’d like to see a new frontman and pacey winger but I think it’s dependent on who we get rid of.
Wait till next season when the amount of games to be played may be even more.
To some we are doomed before we start.
Derek Thomas
69 Posted 28/12/2020 at 07:23:28
Don@ 60 & Lester @ 62; Exactly. Put your best 11 out and go for it.
None of this 'expected losses' bollocks.
Everybody is more or less in the same boat, everybody is playing each other...They've all got a short turn around.
We'll maybe not Herr Plopp and his jungle juice swigers.

Also if for no other reason than this is a 6 pointer, City also have a game in hand and better GD. It's not a time for expediency.
Baring a meltdown over the park were all playing for 2nd place - City included.

No Guts, No Glory!

Edit; I f we can't beat W.Ham, we won't deserve to beat City, don't deserve to have nine hat in the ring for the top spots

And don't deserve to call ourselves EVERTON

Derek Thomas
70 Posted 28/12/2020 at 07:35:32
...to have our hat the ring for the top spots
Derek Knox
71 Posted 28/12/2020 at 08:01:12
Derek T, glad you qualified/corrected your last post, about the number of hats required, I think I only have one, and that's a Blue Santa hat. :-)
Eddie Dunn
72 Posted 28/12/2020 at 08:01:59
Mna City have Jesus and Walker out and a half-fit Aguero. They will want to play through the middle with Sterling the main target. Who knows what their line-up will be? However, I fear Mahrez the most.

It is their defence that gives me most hope, Stones is back in favour and he has been riding his luck of late.

I would rest Mina, as it's not going to be an aerial bombardment, but slide Holgate across (as long as Keane is fit) and keep Seamus at right-back.

That leaves the speedy and industrious Godfrey to watch Mahrez, who will always look to cut inside onto his left foot.

Calvert-Lewin will give them plenty to think about.

Bobby Mallon
73 Posted 28/12/2020 at 08:13:29
This is the game where we don't play out from the back. A counterattack approach is needed with winning the second ball in midfield and having runners off Calvert-Lewin from his flick-ons.

(I would rest him if it was my choice; throw Tosun on to play the lone striker role.)

Tony Everan
74 Posted 28/12/2020 at 08:14:53
Eddie, In Mahrez and Sterling, they have two exceptional and dangerous players; our defence will be severely tested. We have been incredible defensively so maybe, just maybe, we can contain them to an extent.

Don't forget arguably the best player in the league, Kevin De Brunye; Tom Davies and Doucouré will have to try to keep him as quiet as possible, no east task!

On the other side of the coin, we have players to really hurt Man City, their defence can be got at if we can get some good balls in to Calvert-Lewin. It's an opportunity for Iwobi, Gordon or Bernard to impress.

Mal van Schaick
75 Posted 28/12/2020 at 08:20:39
Hoping for a result of some sort and hope no further injuries or sendings off. I think that it all hinges on our defensive set-up. I would keep Keane and Mina together in the centre.
Sam Hoare
76 Posted 28/12/2020 at 08:21:58
I thought some of our players looked dead on their feet by the end of the Sheffield United match. Doucouré, Calvert-Lewin and Sigurdsson especially have started every game recently and done a lot of running. If any of those three were to pick up an injury (especially Calvert-Lewin), we may struggle to replace them.

Might Carlo be tempted to rotate and target a fresher, stronger team to beat West Ham on Friday? It would feel unpalatable but then there's a chance our knackered first XI get beat by Man City anyway and then, exhausted, struggle to get the points against Moyes. I'm glad I don't have to make that decision.

My expectations for tonight are small: Man City look in good form and have a very talented squad to rotate with. Ferran Torres is a bargain I'd have liked us to get. I'd like to see us have a go against them with a weeks rest but I feel our tired legs will be a factor against the best passing team in the country.

We've been lucky (or skilled?) to get the crucial first goal in our recent run of backs-to-the-wall wins but we're not creating much and I wonder how the system would change if we went behind.

I hope Brands will go against type to recruit some players this January. A shame that we are so well positioned but lack the depth to be able to rotate confidently with Calvert-Lewin especially lacking an appealing replacement.

Martin Mason
77 Posted 28/12/2020 at 08:40:34
Assuming that Richarlison doesn't play tonight, then we have two chances: slim and none. Hope we play well but I think that realistically expectations should be modest.
John Reynolds
78 Posted 28/12/2020 at 08:56:29
I'd expect to see changes tonight and Carlo could employ a Big Sam-inspired 6-4-0 formation. I'd be happy with a point... though, if Darren tells us to go out and bet like men, I'd consider it after his Chelsea call.

Incidentally, our schedule is playing Sat/Mon/Fri/Tues. Liverpool get Sun/Weds/Mon/Sun. How is that equitable?

Derek Knox
79 Posted 28/12/2020 at 09:06:15
Tony @ 74, "not an east task" – (typo I know, but never being one to pass up an opportunity for a Frankie Howard type titter) I hope we don't go west!

Sam, always respect your posts, but I hope the team don't adopt the attitude "We are beaten before we start." Wasn't that the philosophy of Bill Shankly but in reverse? He made them all think they were unbeatable, and it seemed to work.

Laurie Hartley
80 Posted 28/12/2020 at 09:08:15
Six pointer - If I was Carlo, I would rinse and repeat.
Rob Halligan
81 Posted 28/12/2020 at 09:18:44
Jeez, West Brom can go to Man City and Liverpool and get a draw at each. Think positive and let's go all out for the win. I'll be there tonight and don't want to be sat there freezing me bollocks off watching us lose!!
Robert Tressell
82 Posted 28/12/2020 at 09:30:53
I'll be very surprised if we see Tosun, Gordon, Nkounkou, Branthwaite etc starting. It'll be the usual 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 surely, with Bernard taking up Richarlison's place. If players tire, they'll come off, but I expect Carlo will play them all because they're generally fit lads who are in a good rythym.

I do agree with Sam about reinforcements. Whilst we are 2nd on 29 points, Saints are 9th on 25 points. The lack of crowds is a real leveller and the top spots are wide open. If we could go against recent tradition and pick up a forward and a wide player, it could really make all the difference.

Alan McGuffog
84 Posted 28/12/2020 at 09:35:38
The betting must be on Man City this evening. They have a bigger and, let's face it, better squad. Of course that doesn't mean we can't have a go. I'd be quietly pleased with a point.

To me, the key thing is how we would react to a defeat. If we bounce back and defeat the Hammers, then all is well.

I hope we are past the days of going into a 3- or 4-match slump after a dispiriting defeat.

Tony Shelby
85 Posted 28/12/2020 at 09:36:22
Let’s pummel the shit out of these fuckers!

COYFB!!!

Terry Farrell
86 Posted 28/12/2020 at 09:37:43
The physios will know which players can start a 2nd game in 48 hrs and who can't so we may get a few surprises. I'd go tight in midfield and try to stop them playing. Davies Doucouré and Holgate centre-midfield. On merit, Bernard starts on the left. Calvert-Lewin is a machine so should be okay.

Darren Hind
87 Posted 28/12/2020 at 09:50:57
Tony Shelby, TW's very own master tactician, has spoken. He's bang on the money again.

13/2 with Sky bet for those who fancy our chances.

I'm already on.

Brian Wilkinson
88 Posted 28/12/2020 at 09:59:17
13/2 for the win Everton, smarter bet could be Everton plus one goal at 2/1 so you get the draw as well.

Or 5/2 over 1 goal, City 5 or more corners, Everton 3 or more corners, and at least one booking each team.

Neil Wood
89 Posted 28/12/2020 at 10:01:48
I'd play Bernard for the left and replace Sigurdsson with Gordon in The middle. He will be able to play football against Man City and that is what he excels at. This lad can beat a man and see passes etc that no-one else in our squad can (James aside).

James Marshall
91 Posted 28/12/2020 at 10:08:01
I see there are some complaints about the turnaround time from our last game to this one – if you look at the fixtures, we do get a gap in a week or so. Other teams have the same problems and, while they might have longer this week, the following week they get games close together, so it affects everyone the same over time.

Tough one tonight – a draw would be a decent result in my view.

Derek Taylor
92 Posted 28/12/2020 at 10:09:39
KITNAP1 – or whatever we used to call it – will be the order of the day !

Once we go behind the heads will drop so another clean sheet is a must. The Mancs will be fitter and all round the better players so we could cop a pasting. If so, it will be interesting to see how long it takes our lads to get back on message!

ps: I will be taking a bit of that 15/2 against an Everton win if it's still about!

Thomas Richards
93 Posted 28/12/2020 at 10:22:00
Very difficult game tonight. Man City move the ball so quickly and we have a tired team chasing.

Deep-lying defence with two shielding. Set-pieces may be our best chance tonight. Calvert-Lewin and the centre-halves can hopefully get some joy in the air from free-kicks and corners if John Stones plays.

All we can ask is 100% from the lads. First goal is massive.

Brian Harrison
94 Posted 28/12/2020 at 10:22:43
I can imagine one manager who would be screaming to all and sundry if his team had to play 46 hours after they finished the last game. Surely with only 2 clubs allowed any supporters in the Premier League, the busy holiday games should have been re-arranged. Why couldn't they have had half the games on Wednesday and the other half on Thursday, and move the weekend games to Sunday and Monday?

Some of our players were running on empty against Sheffield Utd, and it will be a tough call on who to rest and who to play. I know Carlo said a few weeks back that Calvert-Lewin would need a break but, with Richarlison missing, then that leaves Tosun as the only alternative. Which just highlights the folly of letting Kean go on loan and not bringing in someone to give Calvert-Lewin a break. Hopefully, seeing as we are only a matter of days from the next transfer window, let's hope Ancelotti and Brands have identified who to bring in to be able to give Calvert-Lewin a much-needed break.

I think without Aguerro and Silva, Man City are not as potent as they have been, and we know they won't go the aerial route, so we have to be compact and try and limit the amount of time De Bruyne gets on the ball. We know both Sterling and Mahrez will be threats from wide positions, but I trust Mason or Seamus to limit Sterling and have every confidence that Godfrey can keep Mahrez quiet.

I believe we have a chance of causing an upset as, if he plays, Calvert-Lewin will give Stones a hard time. Let's hope, with support from Iwobi and either Bernard or Gordon, we can ask questions of City's back line.

Steve Brown
95 Posted 28/12/2020 at 10:41:48
Sam @ 76, don't worry. Ancelotti will make the decisions. He'll rotate the line-up.
Jeff Armstrong
96 Posted 28/12/2020 at 10:54:42
If we win 10-0 tonight, we go top!

COYB

Tony Waring
97 Posted 28/12/2020 at 11:03:51
Can we not recall Kean from his loan spell at PSG? It would help Calvert-Lewin and he seems to have learnt how to score goals... albeit in a less frantic league than the Premier League.
Tony Waring
98 Posted 28/12/2020 at 11:08:45
Apparently, Phil Foden is frustrated by his lack of playing time at the Etihad. Could he be accommodated at Goodison?
Tony Abrahams
99 Posted 28/12/2020 at 11:11:05
Would Liverpool reserves have beat us any other time than after the Christmas period? (I don't think so.)

Freshen it up as much as we can, just as long as we keep our solidity in defence.

I can Imagine getting a result tonight against Man City would make everyone sit up, but some players are dead on their feet, which also usually means that they will not be quite right mentally to concentrate whilst City have most of the ball?

Good luck tonight, Everton but, to make it hard for City tonight, we need to run, fight, work and fill the gaps, so hopefully as many fresh players as possible, and also another forward or wideman in the window, to help us release Tosun, and also take the pressure off Calvert-Lewin.

Steve Carse
100 Posted 28/12/2020 at 11:13:20
Jeff (96), knowing us, we'll probably fall just short and only get 9. Everton that.
Jeff Armstrong
101 Posted 28/12/2020 at 11:19:45
A spawny 1-0 would do me, Steve> A boring 0-0 would be no mean feat either.
Dan Nulty
102 Posted 28/12/2020 at 11:29:56
After the injuries and the efforts in recent weeks, I'm expecting a tonking tonight. Unfortunately, City can bring in the likes of Mahrez and Foden with fresh legs amongst others.

Hopefully we keep it tight and concentrate and run our legs into the ground to get something, anything from the game.

Brian Williams
103 Posted 28/12/2020 at 11:39:28
Can any of the lads who've already been to a match recently tell me when they received their health questionnaire please?

I'm going (fingers crossed) to the West Ham game and have got my ticket bot not received any questionnaire of any sort?

Help appreciated!

Jeff Armstrong
104 Posted 28/12/2020 at 11:48:40
Brian, it was on an email from the club, I think after the one telling you that you were successful in getting a ticket. I'm going tonight and I have had at least 3 emails and there was a link on one of the emails.
Teddy Draper
105 Posted 28/12/2020 at 11:52:17
What the fuck is up with James? A gonad injury should have been well sorted by now! Something fishy here, we need his class every game. Seems to me he's half a season player. But as they say, what do I know?
Brian Williams
106 Posted 28/12/2020 at 11:53:18
Cheers Jeff!
Sam Hoare
107 Posted 28/12/2020 at 12:00:01
Derek@79, we're certainly not beat yet! But my gut (and ingrained Everton pessimism) suggests that we may be due a bump in the road.

If we get the first goal, then anything could happen but, if you offered me a draw whilst rotating a few tired legs, I'd bite your arm off.

Kim Vivian
108 Posted 28/12/2020 at 12:03:02
Teddy – I asked on another site and was replied that he had a calf strain. Don't know how gospel that is 'cos I've not heard it anywhere else.

Could be he just doesn't like the weather.

Robert Tressell
109 Posted 28/12/2020 at 12:03:07
It's surely the same starting line up as last time but with Bernard for Gordon and Coleman for Holgate. Not very exciting / innovative but there you go. Others may well come on to provide fresh legs. Or Holgate may push into midfield or centre-half if Mina is spent. Hopefully everyone still has some gas in the tank. I'll be amazed if we see Nkounkou but who knows.

Of course they are quality and have a deeper squad. But they won't be looking at this as a pushover. No reason why we shouldn't come out of the game with even 3 points. Even the Man Utd cup shocker was close until very late despite the underwhelming performance.

Keep it tight and hope we get the opener. That's the key.

Jeff Armstrong
110 Posted 28/12/2020 at 12:04:09
Brian, just checked: I only got the questionnaire email on Saturday so you may not have had it yet.
Alan J Thompson
111 Posted 28/12/2020 at 12:11:38
Kim( #108); Are you sure they didn't say that he's straining with one the size of a calf?
Kim Vivian
112 Posted 28/12/2020 at 12:19:30
AJT - Hahaha.
Brian Williams
113 Posted 28/12/2020 at 12:33:24
Thanks again, Jeff. I've sent a message and will try'n phone tomorrow when the office opens.
Dave Lynch
114 Posted 28/12/2020 at 12:40:06
Bomber formation.

9-0-1 frustrate the life out of them and take a point.

Niall McIlhone
115 Posted 28/12/2020 at 12:40:36
We have home advantage tonight. there will be our very own version of the 300 Spartans yelling the blue boys on (The 2000 Toffees). It could just give the lads the little bit of lift needed to deal with tired legs?

As much as I admire Pep, and the football Man City play, they can be "got at" in tight games which this one will be. A win would be great, I don't know but I just have an inkling that Ancelotti has applied all of his many skills to devising a system that works.

Dare I make a comparison to the Gordon Lee team all those years ago, with pragmatism almost taking us to the very top, and an ace goal scorer (Latchford) scoring home and away, akin to how Calvert-Lewin is performing?

Then again, the Latch did have the incomparable Davie Thomas supplying the crosses; imagine if we had a time slip with DT and DCL? We'd be in Golden Boot territory!

Steavey Buckley
116 Posted 28/12/2020 at 12:40:38
Everton have 4 goal-keepers in the first-team squad plus Harry Tyrer, the competent goal-keeper from the Under-23s, who played in the Everton first team against Salford this season. But, if Calvert-Lewin is giving a rest, Tosun is the obvious replacement. Reminds me of when Moyes was Everton manager and he had 5 right-backs but shortages in other parts of the team.
Derek Taylor
117 Posted 28/12/2020 at 12:56:08
Teddy Draper @ 105; I'm sure someone has accurate appearance figures but I know I read at the time of his signing that James had made 300 first team appearances since debut in 2006.

So he looks on course to make about 20 games for Everton this season. Not a lot is it ?

Brian Wilkinson
118 Posted 28/12/2020 at 13:06:39
We normally attack the park end in the first half, so those lucky enough to have a ticket, in the Gwladys street, load up on sprouts before the game chaps and counteract their attacks by nuking them with mustard gas, keep them in their own half for the first 45 minutes.

Anyone got a better idea I’m all ears.

Geoff Lambert
119 Posted 28/12/2020 at 13:11:43
Spurs,Chelsea,Leicester,Liverpool, Arsenal. 13 points from 15 against teams we have not been able to beat for years.
New mindset and grinding out results with a lot of second string players.
Bring it on. 2-1 and level on points at top of prem.
COYB...
Jamal Paktongko
120 Posted 28/12/2020 at 13:16:41
Come January first, we need to: 1) Get Barkley back. He will command our midfield along with James 2) Get Lookman back 3) Sign Jack WIlshere as backup for James
Geoff Lambert
121 Posted 28/12/2020 at 13:19:11
Jamal are you in the pub mate?
Colin Glassar
122 Posted 28/12/2020 at 13:19:26
Seriously, Jamal? Why not bring back David Weir and Jermaine Beckford back as well?
Raymond Fox
123 Posted 28/12/2020 at 13:19:58
We need quick players against City so that rules Mina out for me, I'd prefer Holgate.
We are on the crest of a wave at the moment, good things are going our way so who knows.
Nevertheless I'm not too optimistic we will get anything from this game.
We are going to have to score because I cant see us nilling them, just trying to defend wont work.
I'm just hoping for a good performance and will be happy with a point.
Howard Don
124 Posted 28/12/2020 at 13:34:43
Niall McIlhone, so true about Davie Thomas. Never saw anybody, before or since, who could cross a ball on the run like him. Wonderful provider for Latch. Registered blind now, poor bloke.
Anthony Hawkins
125 Posted 28/12/2020 at 13:35:41
Whilst the win would be the best outcome, I’d settle for a draw.
Brian Williams
126 Posted 28/12/2020 at 13:39:39
Geoff#121
I think he's been thrown out for being too drunk!
Stan Schofield
127 Posted 28/12/2020 at 14:47:15
If we win 11-0 tonight, we go top of the league!
Stan Schofield
128 Posted 28/12/2020 at 14:49:53
Niall@115: Latch also had Mike Bernard putting through-balls in for him to run onto.
Rob Halligan
129 Posted 28/12/2020 at 14:50:51
Stan, let's go for it!! 👍👍👍
Brian Wilkinson
130 Posted 28/12/2020 at 14:56:20
Latchford also had Jim Pearson alongside him.

We had some beauties back then, Dia Davies, Pejic, Bernard, Pearson, Connolly, enough to frighten anyone, especially in the playground when you tried to swap them in your duplicate footy stickers.

Brian Williams
131 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:09:41
Stan#127.
Stan that's ridiculous. Can't see us winning by more than four. 😶
Mike Gaynes
132 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:09:50
Derek #117, not exactly. James has made 427 appearances in all competitions. Over five years at Real and Bayern, he averaged 36 appearances (league/Cup/CL) until last year when he slumped to 14 at RM, partly due to a knee injury but mostly because of Zidane's distaste for his game. So while he's not exactly the Rock of Gibraltar, he's not generally a sicknote either.

Jamal #120, you've posted that a couple of times now. You should stop or we'll all have to quarantine from whatever virus you have!

Rob Halligan
133 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:15:09
FFS, Brian, where's your positivity mate??
Brian Williams
134 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:16:08
Sorry Rob. 😩
Neil Copeland
135 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:16:24
Brian #130, not to mention Count Dracula (Gordon Lee) on the touchline!
Brent Stephens
136 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:17:46
Stan #127 "If we win 11-0 tonight, we go top of the league!"

That's just crazy wishful thinking, Stan? You know we'll probably concede one or two so will need to score 12 or 13.

Neil Copeland
137 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:18:31
Rob #133, perhaps Brian meant at half time
Tom Bowers
138 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:19:57
It will be difficult today as we all agree but sometimes you have to expect the unexpected and most may not expect Everton to win.

DeBruyne is the main talisman and if we can keep him quiet we have a chance.

Julian Wait
139 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:30:51
Bernard has to start.

Defence should probably start with the "usual" four CBs but Coleman for Mina( or Keane) is a possibility albeit harsh on either of them, but would give more speed and mobility.

I think decisions will partly be made based on fatigue. Pushing Holgate into DM is also a possibility.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

140 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:44:19
No need to worry tonight. 'Lorra Laughs Lawro' has us down for a 2-0 loss in his BBC predictions.

On his predictions for us this season we would be down in 14th place with just 16 points from 3 wins, 7 draws and 5 losses and a minus 11 goal difference (the worst GD of ALL teams his prediction table).

The celebrity he makes predictions against today is Fraser Smith, songwriter and music producer. Life-long Leicester fan, he has us down for a 2-0 win, saying:

'Everton impressed me a lot when they beat us before Christmas. They are a very well-drilled team and they are fresher for not playing European football this season.'

See Lawro's 'what if' prediction table here:

Lawro's Prediction Table

Kunal Desai
141 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:52:43
Rumours circulating that this game looks like being postponed due to Covid 19.

May well be a blessing in disguise and give players a breather before the visit of West Ham on Friday

Sean O´Hanlon
142 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:56:08
Remember not too long ago, the FA would look at bad tackles that referees missed, and the guilty players could be punished
retrospectively. If VAR was available during the Man U cup game, then surely the tackle on Richarlison would've been deemed as a red card, and the player should have received at least a 3 match ban. (If it was a rugby game, then a definite 6 week ban).
Does the FA look at controversial games & foul play with respect to handing out retrospective punishment?
Or am I completely wrong?
Sean O´Hanlon
143 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:56:08
Remember not too long ago, the FA would look at bad tackles that referees missed, and the guilty players could be punished
retrospectively. If VAR was available during the Man U cup game, then surely the tackle on Richarlison would've been deemed as a red card, and the player should have received at least a 3 match ban. (If it was a rugby game, then a definite 6 week ban).
Does the FA look at controversial games & foul play with respect to handing out retrospective punishment?
Or am I completely wrong?
Mike Gaynes
144 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:58:50
NBC REPORTING THE GAME IS OFF -- COVID OUTBREAK IN THE MAN CITY CLUB.
David McMullen
145 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:58:55
Is it off?
Jason Wilkinson
146 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:59:31
Jay #141,

The minus 11 is places in the league. Not goal difference.

Brian Williams
147 Posted 28/12/2020 at 15:59:53
Game off?
Five positives in City squad?
Anyone any more info than that?

It's off!

Let's see who blames Ancelotti. 🤣

Brent Stephens
149 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:00:25
Game off. J
Brent Stephens
150 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:00:48
Just announced on Amazon Prime: game off.
Jason Wilkinson
151 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:01:21
I can't find any news of our game being postponed. Anyone got a source?
Ian Bennett
152 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:01:35
Surely they forfeit the points. :-)
Mike Gaynes
153 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:01:40
It's official. Both clubs confirm the match is OFF.
Colin Glassar
154 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:02:05
Game's postponed due to Covid.
Brent Stephens
155 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:02:30
City confirmed it.
James Marshall
156 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:02:37
Annoying. Oh well, at least our players get a bit more rest.
Kunal Desai
157 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:02:58
Works in our favour, as I don't believe we'd take anything from tonight with key players out and rotation of players.

Regroup for West Ham.

Stu Gore
158 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:03:25
Time for some proper rest before West Ham.
Robert Tressell
159 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:03:43
It's off. Not a disaster other than I was looking forward to the game.
David McMullen
160 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:03:50
Better for us. Here's hoping we're still second after this round of games.
Neil Lawson
161 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:03:56
Carlo smiling no doubt.
Jamie Evans
162 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:03:56
BBC announced it's off.
Jeff Armstrong
163 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:04:02
Bollox... had a ticket, tested, gloves and woolly hat sorted.
Mike Gaynes
164 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:05:08
Hate to be ungenerous, but I'm really glad the outbreak is in their club instead of ours.

And yes, our players can use the rest.

Geoff Williams
165 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:05:32
Covid-19 in Man City Squad.
Colin Glassar
166 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:06:19
Nothing to do now tonight. I may as well go to sleep now.
Dan Nulty
167 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:06:47
As much as better for us, frustrating. Rugby give the team who have Covid the equivalent of a 4-0 loss and they lose the game. We would get the points.
Mike Gaynes
168 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:06:50
Sorry, Jeff. But please post photo of woolly hat.
Brian Williams
169 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:06:56
Jeff #164.

Blessing in disguise for you. I've seen those gloves and hat. 🤣

Mike Gaynes
170 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:08:33
Any bets on whether Stones was the carrier?
Danny O’Neill
171 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:08:43
And it's off, apparently.
Jay Harris
172 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:09:00
Gives us a chance to get batteries recharged and get injuries cleared up.
Derek Taylor
173 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:09:05
Thanks for the correction, mate. those are perfectly respectable appearance figures!
Anthony A Hughes
174 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:09:10
Match postponed due to Covid.
Mike Gaynes
175 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:09:25
Danny, we're way ahead of ya, mate!
Andrew McLawrence
176 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:09:33
Should be given the points, like in rugby.
Thomas Richards
177 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:09:40
Not too disappointed with that. Our lads are out on their feet. Second game in less than 48 hours against a team like Man City may have been a step too far.

Bonus is hopefully we have a full squad for the rearranged game and the lads get a good rest before the West Ham game.

Kevin Molloy
178 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:11:19
Double bonus. rest for West Ham, play Man City when we have our players back. Marvellous.
Joe McMahon
179 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:12:00
That's probably good news for us, we have too many key players injured and we have played way too many games recently.
Michael Lynch
180 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:12:31
Must be Kyle Walker's lap-dancers being passed around the team.
Danny O’Neill
181 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:12:42
I know Mike!

Not such a bad thing for us. Additional breathing space in a congested period. And, the players we have missing are ones that could make a difference for us against City.

Full backs, Allan and James would give us more to counter them. Likely would have been backs to the wall tonight.

It worked against Sheff Utd as they were never coming at us.

Sitting well going into the New Year, just a shame we couldn't have gone with that keep it tight and nick one 11 - 0 win.

Stu Gore
182 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:12:50
Knowing our luck, it would be awarded 0-3 to Man City.
Tom Bowers
183 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:14:00
Good move for safety reasons.

Both teams will benefit but when will irresponsible people start to realise this pandemic is for real and health guidelines must be strictly followed?

Rob Hooton
184 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:14:14
Shame the match is off but might work in our favour.

Wonder if the City players have been misbehaving for an outbreak to occur? If so then they should forfeit all matches they cannot fulfil!

Ajay Gopal
185 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:15:06
Great news! Apparently postponed due to increased Covid positive cases among Man City players.
Soren Moyer
186 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:16:24
The game is Postponed.
Thomas Richards
187 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:16:52
Mike, #171

What makes you think that?

Steve Brown
188 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:17:26
Commiserations to Jeff and anyone who had a ticket, but that is ideal for us. Players get a rest and we play them with a stronger team.
Rob Halligan
189 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:19:58
Email from club to confirm postponement, and advising us not to travel. I assume if Liverpool is still in Tier 2 by the time of the next home game, fans who were going tonight have first priority for that game.

Could we have asked for the game to be postponed due to having a load of players out injured?

Mike Gaynes
190 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:21:03
Thomas, I was kidding... referencing Stones's partying ways.

Actually, Walker and Jesus were the first two cases last Friday.

David Hallwood
191 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:22:11
Pardon the pun, but only positives from the cancellation. We're down to bare bones in the middle of this crazy fixture congestion.

Everyone gets a breather and all ready to go on New Year's day v. The 'Ammers

Alan J Thompson
192 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:22:25
If this game is postponed because some Man City players have this virus, then shouldn't the Premier League be abandoned or postponed as they should now quarantine for at least 14 days?

If you haven't got enough players today, then you won't have enough until after quarantine, even if nobody else comes down with it.

Mike Gaynes
193 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:23:53
Rob #193, seems more likely that it's due to the possibility of a wider outbreak in the City rooms. Two diagnosed on Christmas, then more today, implies they could have a serious problem.
Thomas Richards
194 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:24:26
Thanks Mike.

Probably been sharing balloons! :-)

Robert Tressell
195 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:25:17
Disappointing because we could have gone top with an 18-nil victory.
Bobby Mallon
196 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:25:22
It's off!
James Flynn
197 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:26:25
Was looking forward to the game, but agree with above comments on the cancellation. Out of nowhere, a full week off between games.

And with all the key players we have out, that's all we'd need; players going down because of the virus.

Would hope the league office might ask City what the hell their players are doing away from training.

Brian Wilkinson
198 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:27:31
I feel sorry for those who had a ticket but it has worked out well for us, players get a rest and Richarlison and possibly Rodriguez back for the West Ham game.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

199 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:28:46
Bugger! My whole day was planned around watching the game.

But then, this gives us nearly a week off while other teams are running their togs off.

Our next opponents for example WHU played yesterday, play again Tuesday and then play us on Friday. 3 games in 6 days when in the same time our game against them is our only game.

Looking further down the road, Man City now have to fit in two missed fixtures, v Villa and now us, quite possibly squeezed in between their commitments to Champions League footy.

All good then... but it's a bugger for those who must have been so looking forward to going to Goodison tonight.

Geoff Trenner
200 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:29:49
Good news, our players need those extra few days. City are the last team you want to play when not at your best.
Kieran Kinsella
201 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:30:42
Thank fuck for that!
Rob Halligan
202 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:31:06
Whilst I'm gutted about not going tonight, it does have it's advantages. Like some have said, we will have injured players back, plus it's bloody freezing out there. ❄❄❄⛄⛄⛄
Brent Stephens
203 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:31:18
So we go into 2021 unbeaten in the last 5 league games
Mike Gaynes
204 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:32:13
Yeah, Jay, poor Moyes is gonna feel like he's bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Len Hawkins
205 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:32:14
Blimey! Poor Jesus... 3 days old and he gets covid.
Brian Murray
206 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:32:51
Pep gutted. He knows an under strength toffs was the only chance they had !!
Paul Birmingham
207 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:33:22
Dissappointing, as I reckon tonight Everton, would have beaten City.

Player safety is paramount, and for Evertons players, and it will be interesting to see how this impacts City’s next games, and whether they go into a club lockdown.

In a positive way, it provides a break and some recovery time for the Hammers match.

Everton are still in form, let’s hope Palace can beat Leicester.

On to the Hammers and the transfer window.

Paul Smith
208 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:37:19
Obviously a blag by City fearing a loss against the in form team in the Prem. Needs looking into this one, then again, it gives us time to recover and get our players back fighting fit.
Tony Hill
209 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:39:35
I'm pleased. This will allow us time to rest and get some players back/in. Leicester are losing too. We just seem to have a few things running our way this season. Good.
Will Mabon
210 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:42:50
Bugger - Barnes has equalized.
John Raftery
211 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:42:51
Rob (202) I agree, although I was looking forward to being there. Very likely the game will have to be squeezed into a week when City will be forced to play four times in eight days, unless they get knocked out of the cups early. Presumably they won't be able to play next weekend either.

Man City face a fixture pile-up which could derail their Premier League chances. Also some of their players may not recover quickly from the virus as has happened at Newcastle.

Andy Walker
212 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:43:50
Our luck is changing. Excellent news. Play them when we have a fit team.
Mike Gaynes
213 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:44:08
Hmm, City's issue may indeed be serious. Per ESPN, City has closed its training ground indefinitely, shelving everybody pending further testing.

Furthermore, there were four cases confirmed Friday, not just two -- a couple staffers in addition to Jesus and Walker. It will be interesting to find out how many cases were discovered today.

The Barnes equalizer drops us to 3rd, correct?

Kim Vivian
214 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:45:58
Jay - and a League Cup semi-final double header.
Tony Hill
215 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:46:54
Yes, sorry about that Will.

Mike, there is a worry that Covid could start to cause serious disruption to the season and make things a bit farcical. Let's hope not.

Dave Southword
216 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:49:28
I'm fuming and pleased in equal measure. Been looking forward to the game, but the reschedule will benefit us more than Man City as we have a chance to get our injured half team fit again and they are going to end up with a massive fixture pile up which they will need to squeeze this game into.
Kim Vivian
217 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:51:42
I fear we may be heading into a national Tier 4 on Wednesday – maybe full lockdown pending, and postponement of all football again. Not seen the latest Government covid figures (even though they are a bit skewed).
John Keating
218 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:51:51
Get the lads sent home and a day off tomorrow.

Get them in Wednesday to prepare for the Hammers and let's have no excuses about being tired.

I feel sorry for everyone attending tonight but this is a blessing in disguise just now.

Well done, City... and if Davey and his lads want to call off Friday, then our lot can have another lie in!

Craig Harrison
219 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:52:16
Man City played Newcastle Utd on the 26th. A day after two positive Covid tests and a couple of days before calling our game off. Shouldn't Newcastle games also be called off? But then again, they play Liverpool next.
Mike Gaynes
220 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:52:22
So now we are 3rd.
Neil Copeland
221 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:53:22
I see there are a number of comments on social media from non-Everton fans saying Man City should forfeit the game, as per rugby and football in Scotland. Whilst I don't necessarily agree, a forfeit would certainly help prevent the fixture pile-up that may ensue and go at least a small way in ensuring the season is completed.
Andy Meighan
222 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:57:15
What would have happened if they'd had 10 injuries? They'd have to play, wouldn't they? Bet if it was the other way around, we'd have to forfeit the points. Not a prayer that's going to happen.
Kim Vivian
223 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:57:32
3rd only on goal difference. Another 2 points dropped by one of the top 4. Suits us really – you'd have expected a Leicester City win.

Neil – Without casting aspersions, a forfeit might also serve to discourage players from behaving in a way which leads to increased infections.

Will Mabon
224 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:58:10
Neil – there'd be a danger of a results panel at some point. We could probably guess at the outcome in terms of potential "Big" club bias.
Tony Hill
225 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:58:30
Yup, with a game in hand. Leicester are flopping at the moment.
Ian Riley
226 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:58:49
Great news!!!!

More time to rest and injured players back.

Yes, a full lockdown is possible. Hospitals busy now.

Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
227 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:59:06
6 days out for Richarlison - so he will be fit.

James was being talked about being back last week. Would expect with 9 more days he should be available.

Gbamin? Anybody know when he is expected back? And Digne?

Allan, I think it a couple of weeks still.

Thomas Richards
228 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:59:19
Neil,

Keep that quiet or you will have Herr Klopp gallopping to the Premier League.

Barry Rathbone
229 Posted 28/12/2020 at 16:59:35
My neighbour just tested positive and she visited Manchester last week.

Quite clear what she's been up to doubtless her confession will take 2 hours when all this is resolved.

Thankfully I have my holy water bottle from the school trip to Lourdes and will make good use of Matthew 4:17 as I soak her

“Turn away from your sins, because the Kingdom of heaven is near!”

Sean O´Hanlon
230 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:00:47
In this year's European Rugby Champions Cup competition, teams unable to play due to a Covid outbreak at their clubs, lost the game by default, and their opposition were awarded the victory, with a set score of 28-0.

I'd be happy with that for the Premier League!

Brent Stephens
231 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:04:33
Let's hope the game is rearranged to near the end of the season – when we'll already have won the Premier League...
Robert Tressell
232 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:06:41
James Rodriguez must've been left looking like Buster Gonad for a case of sore testicles to have kept him out this long.
Dale Self
233 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:08:46
Justice. A few days off and hopefully a reasonable reschedule with their Euro dates considered. UTFB!
Matthew Salem
234 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:08:58
First off, I wish everybody at Man City a speedy recovery. Having said this, this is boss for us. I was dreading this game. We need a break.
Daniel A Johnson
235 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:14:29
Actually gutted... glad at the same time.

We looked knackered there are a few empty tanks in our squad. Even Calvert-Lewin looked knackered which is saying something as he's our fittest player.

Feet up rest and then hopefully a good smashing of West Ham and Kenwright's long-lost son.

Si Cooper
236 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:14:56
I think only the players will know if the postponement is a boon or not. Could be we lose momentum and there is no guarantee we will be injury- or suspension-free when the re-arranged game needs to be crowbarred in.

I was hoping the fact that this was an ‘odds-against' fixture may have caused the manager to give a few of the youngsters a run-out with a ‘just give it your best shot' mandate. I'm not sure that even with our best eleven we will be expecting to turn Man City over when this game is played.

More rest before the West Ham game will be useful as long as the players are suitably psyched up.

Neil Copeland
237 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:15:09
Will #224, god forbid! They would be awarding the RS 6-0 wins

Thomas #228, wouldn't be any surprise if he is already in the process of making the call.

Is this the first Premier League game postponed due to Covid?

David McMullen
238 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:15:30
Next we need Chelsea and Villa to draw. And the barcodes to win tomorrow.
Mark Tanton
239 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:17:23
Can we all go on Live Forum and pretend? I'll start...

3 mins - FFS they're all so slow, how does Davies get in? We're going to get battered here.

Tony Hill
240 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:19:54
I think a Newcastle game was postponed, Neil.
Brian Harrison
241 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:20:03
Just read the number of Covid cases confirmed in the last 24 hours is 41,384 — the highest amount since the virus struck in March. I think it may be time for another March style lockdown, including football.
Barry McNally
242 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:20:31
Neil 237, Villa v Newcastle earlier this month was the first this season.
Bernard Dooley
243 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:21:44
Kim #214,

Carabao Cup Semi-final this season is a one-leg only match due to the tight fixture list.

Alan Johnson
244 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:22:04
Ancelotti will be over the moon about this. I was really looking forward to tonight but, glad it's off.
Brent Stephens
245 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:23:22
Mark "Can we all go on Live Forum and pretend?"

Mark, have got a link to the game?!

Carlo never learns, does he, with that team selection. Always said we should never have appointed him.

Neil Copeland
246 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:25:10
Tony and Barry, thanks. A precedent has already been set then.
Thomas Richards
247 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:26:36
Leicester got a point, scoring in last 5. I'm not impressed with Leicester this season.I reckon we will finish above them.
Colin Glassar
248 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:27:31
Deffo think Man City should forfeit the game and we should get all 3 points. If the players, and club, can't control their denseness, then fuck ‘em!
Peter Roberts
249 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:28:32
Mike #171,

Unlikely to be Stones, he has trouble passing a ball to a team mate – never mind Covid-19.

Rob Halligan
250 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:28:39
So Man City had four confirmed cases of Covid on Christmas Day, so why didn't they ask for the Boxing Day game against Newcastle to be postponed?

Simple reason being they knew that was a winnable game. They were definitely fearing us tonight!!

Stephen Beattie
251 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:32:00
Howard’s Way it is! Had booked the TV with the missus and curry sorted so will finally get round to watching the film instead of the game.
John Keating
252 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:33:03
Will,

The last thing we need is some arseholes deducting points! It will be like the pools panel, except the panel will be made up of Redknapp, Souness, Carragher and Klopp. Both Man City and us will have points deducted.

I have no doubt Liverpool will be up at the Premier League tomorrow, if not tonight, making an official complaint that us and Man City now have an unfair advantage.

Will Mabon
253 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:33:56
You have a point, Rob. Tactical advantage never lost on "Winners".

Maybe more will come out yet, but nothing surprises me.

Jerome Shields
254 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:35:54
Have to reorganize my Evening now.

Agree with Rob#250.

Jason Wilkinson
255 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:37:21
Forfeit the game 🤣🤣

"We play it on the carpet. We play it in the air. Whichever way we play it. We play it fair and square."

Leave the RS to fiddling lads.

Jack Ledwidge
256 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:38:59
I can imagine the disappointment!!

"Cenk I want holding up the ball and getting in the box when we're attacking. Anthony, another big chance for you. Work your bollox off up and down that wing. Andre, stop combing your hair and listen- this is your last chance to impress. What did you say Duncan ?? It's what – I don't believe ye."

Rob Halligan
257 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:39:35
The following is taken from the BBC website:

It is fair to say this news has been greeted with disappointment at Everton, given they had the chance to join Liverpool at the top of the Premier League – and are still allowed supporters at matches at Goodison Park, with Merseyside in Tier 2 under the UK government's coronavirus restrictions.

The club were only alerted to a potential problem on Monday afternoon and while it is understood they are not angry about the situation, they are looking for full disclosure from the Premier League for the precise reasons they came to the decision they did.

As for City, they will probably never know the precise reasons for the outbreak. However, they did play Arsenal in the EFL Cup at Emirates Stadium on 22 December, by which time London had been put in Tier 4, and City have been told positive cases have subsequently been reported at the hotel they were staying in.

In the short term, their training ground has been closed and all players and staff will be tested on Tuesday. This is the same procedure Newcastle had to go through earlier in December, after their match at Aston Villa was called off.

With a congested fixture list, City's Premier League match at Chelsea on Sunday 3 January and EFL Cup semi-final at Manchester United on Wednesday 6 January are both at risk.

However, unlike Leyton Orient, who had to forfeit their tie against Tottenham earlier in the competition when their squad was ravaged by positive coronavirus tests, the semi-final would be rearranged.

Ian Riley
258 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:40:12
Brian #241,

Germany were spot on with their lockdown mid-December. Christmas and New Year will put rates of infection higher than in March and April. The death rates I fear more. Hospitals want to treat non-Covid patients. Those with life-threatening diseases that need treatment now. Very difficult with increased rates of Covid-19.

A national lockdown is the only way to reduce infection rates and deaths. I am reflectively young and had Covid-19. Mild symptoms are not good and can go either way. Boris has sorted Brexit out. Time to get back to Covid now as this could get out of hand very quickly.

Please take care all.

John Raftery
259 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:41:11
Season should be stopped now! Average points per game to determine league positions. We finish second automatically qualifying for the Champions League.
Kunal Desai
260 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:41:44
Week commencing 18th of Jan is when fixtures are split out over two weeks, perhaps that might be used as a possible date for teams to fulfill fixtures over both midweek slots.
Gavin Johnson
261 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:43:44
I'm disappointed about the postponement but the positives are it gives the players some more rest time. I did think this game was going to be one too many with Digne, Allan, Richarlison and James missing, so maybe it will help us in the long run?!
Rob Halligan
262 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:43:48
John # 259. See you on the plane!!
John Keating
263 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:46:04
Seems Everton were not consulted about the postponement and have asked the Premier League for clarification on how the decision was made. They were just informed around 4pm that the match was off.

No doubt City knew, probably the RS were consulted too.

Will Mabon
264 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:47:22
John, 252 - you may be not far wrong, it's a distinct possibility.

John, 259 - I think we should use Last Four Games Form as the decider :)

Tony Hill
265 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:48:11
There's an interesting thing on Rio Ferdinand's Between The Lines on YouTube where he asks Carlo to name the top 4 midfielders from those he's managed (pre-Everton, otherwise we'd obviously have been occupying the selections).

The list is staggering and Carlo's choices are instructive.

Jamal Paktongko
266 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:52:22
Have you guys seen how good Barkley is at Villa.

Or how good Lookman is at Fulham?

These are Premier League tested players and would join our team running.

Pat Kelly
267 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:54:12
I can't see us getting beaten tonight.
Mike Gaynes
268 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:57:02
Brent #245, I'll be IE: "Carlo is a coward, parking the bus already, why don't we play two forwards, etc., etc., etc "

Pat #267, I'm predicting another clean sheet.

Jamal #266, neither player wanted to be here. Both were so eager to leave they burned rubber out the door. Neither will be coming back.

Jamal Paktongko
269 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:58:09
On another note, I say the league should implement the Concussion Substitute system as soon as possible.

After what happened to our Richarlison, I say the need for the system goes without saying.

I hope they implement the system starting this 1st January.

Dale Self
270 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:58:29
I like it Rob 250, let the spin begin!
Tony Waring
271 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:58:44
This could really mess up City's season. They're in every competition – except the Liverpool Senior Cup of course, which anyway seems to have disappeared in recent years.

Pity tonight's match is off because I was thinking we might at least get a point and, who knows, even win the game. At least our lads will be rested and hopefully in fine fettle for the West Ham match.

Brian Wilkinson
272 Posted 28/12/2020 at 17:59:29
Phil @227, they reckon Digne is making a speedy recovery and could even be back towards the end of January.

Gbamin, I can give you a month but not the year...

Thomas Richards
273 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:00:08
Ian, #258.

You confident Boris wiil "sort out" covid?

Tony Hill
274 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:03:09
Jamal @266, I think Barkley is an interesting call; one of the serious, unfulfilled Everton talents but I can't see him coming back, mate. There was local trouble here which had nothing to do with football. He will either stay at Chelsea or go to Villa where he seems happier than he ever was with us.

No-one on here will admit it but Lookman should have gone to Derby on loan, as Allardyce wanted. I think it could have turned him into a player for us. Much too late now and I fear he overrates himself.

Paul Birmingham
275 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:04:14
Let's hope that the West Ham game is played, so Everton can maintain momentum.

It will be interesting the coming weeks and months to see what set of unique circumstances means an EPL match has to be postponed.

To call a game off less than 5 hours before kick-off is an exceptional circumstance, for the EPL.

I hope the full reasons for the postponement are shared, and transparency, as on the face of it, this could mark a new impact on football at all levels in the UK.

The South East in Tier 4 now raises fresh concerns with the new strain of coronavirus which the medical scientists have stated on the box spreads far faster than the first strain of the virus.

All stay safe and well.

Rob Halligan
276 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:06:05
New rule change for today only. It's just been confirmed that any team playing, who has the same sponsor as a team who's game has been postponed, then the team who's game is postponed will be awarded the same result as the team playing, but only if the team playing, win!!

COME ON VILLA!!

Phew!!

Rob Halligan
277 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:08:07
Fuck, Chelsea ahead.
John Raftery
278 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:08:41
Rob (262) Or in Wetherspoons beforehand!
Andrew Clare
279 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:09:07
Ian# 258,

You are joking, aren't you? I don't think ‘Boris' could sort out a pack of cards let alone Brexit and COVID-19!

Raymond Fox
280 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:13:13
Walker for City got fined for going to a party weeks ago, didn't he?

I'd put money on him being the source of the new infection. Some never learn.

Will Mabon
281 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:14:37
Andrew - yet everyone does as they're told. Ditto, Matt Hancock, laughing like a devilish little child on live television, then trying to spin it into fake tears of emotion at the first vaccination. Disgusting.
Jamal Paktongko
282 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:17:17
I've been meaning to ask this but how effective is Cazoo?

I mean, they didn't invent the saying "kicking the tyres" for nothing.

Thomas Richards
283 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:17:17
Will,

Give them a bit of credit.

They awarded the billions of pounds available for PPE in an impeccable fashion.

Neville Wellings
284 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:20:16
At least Man City aren't fielding a team of reserves against us........
Will Mabon
285 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:21:24
Thomas, I have to stop here!
Danny O’Neill
286 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:26:58
How can Boris sort out Covid? It's a disease and he's a mere politician – not God or Mother Nature. One of the many problems from the onset of this has been the politicisation of the issue and the politicians have let the over-the-top media suck them into it.

On Everton vs Man City, if what I'm hearing is correct, Everton asking for an explanation as they were informed after a decision was taken rather than being consulted?

Will Mabon
287 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:28:32
Tony @ 265:

Just watched that - interesting.

Tony Hill
288 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:29:01
Difficult to be fair to Koeman but what if Mrs Giroud had fancied a bit of shopping at Liverpool One? And a taste of Byrne's chippy?
Danny O’Neill
289 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:37:43
Weren't the Premier League rules that, if 14 players are fit, the game goes ahead?

Contradicting myself from previously saying this works for us... now starting to smell of Man City calling it as they couldn't play the team they wanted and we were informed of the decision.

Neil Copeland
290 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:41:30
It sounds like we were told by the Premier League that the game was off. Therefore, I am assuming that Man City didn't contact us. If so, that's a bit shit, isn't it? Surely common courtesy means they should have at least talked to us first.
Tom Harvey
291 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:42:23
Hasn't every other club had to play on without Covid infected players?

The football establishments bending over backwards for one of their (money) favourites and as they did by allowing them back into the Champions League.

What a corrupt world we live in.

Will Mabon
292 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:43:48
Danny, more will be said and the position will have to be clarified. If you're right about the 14 player requirement applying this would be a transgression. There could be a precedent set that postponements are assessed per individual case which would be a minefield.

Will be an interesting discussion ahead.

Tom Harvey
293 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:45:01
We had a reasonable chance of getting a result tonight, we've been crapped on again.
John Atkins
294 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:48:11
The decision stinks and I bet, if the other way round, we'd have been forced to play.

However, I do believe it will help us in the long run. Players will hopefully be fitter going into January.

The Hammers looked a little jaded against Brighton and still have to travel to Southampton tomorrow before coming to us. Get some rest lads and be ready and refreshed for Friday.

Rob Halligan
295 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:48:28
Danny, every Premier League club has a squad of 25 players. So if 2, 4 or even 6 players are tested positive, providing the remaining players all get tested negative, then I see no reason why the game could not have gone ahead.

Man City would still have had enough for a starting XI and at least 8 subs. Is that a fair assumption, or is there something we are missing? There is definitely something fishy about this.

Neil Copeland
296 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:49:05
Tom #291, Newcastle against Villa was postponed earlier in the season so the precedent has already been set. Having said that, the amount of notice and manner in which EFC were informed is another story.
Mike Gaynes
297 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:50:27
Tom Harvey, get a grip.

City did play on Boxing Day without the two players who had tested positive. But now that a more widespread outbreak appears to have occurred there, the postponement was necessary -- because it protects our players from exposure. Quite the opposite of being "crapped on".

And IMO we have a far better chance of getting a result when we have our best players back and rested.

Paul Birmingham
298 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:50:31
Danny @289, I concur and the true facts and following of Covid-19, match notification need to be published.

I wonder where the match officials were when advised of the postponement?

Interesting to see what version of facts and events will be given, Man City in theory will be in lockdown and in isolation for 10 days..

Here's to a return to fitness of Everton's injured players and hopefully a match on New Year's Day, and to a good Everton win.

Tom Harvey
299 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:51:52
Danny O'Neill @ 286

Hello Danny,

He could start by enforcing his own social distance and isolation laws, there's been virtualy no arrests or fines in this country compared to the rest of the so called civilised word.

I'm not saying that would solve our problems, but I would atleast be a start.

Tony Hill
300 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:52:12
Another interview (in the Mail, sadly) in which Martinez could not be more generous to our club and about its prospects. I was one of his biggest critics on here and he had to go, but he's never once said a bad word about us and he's always gracious. I think he's exemplary in the way he's conducted himself.

I hope he wins something with Belgium.

Barry McNally
301 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:53:12
BBC: Everton were only alerted to a potential problem on Monday afternoon and while it is understood they are not angry about the situation, they are looking for full disclosure from the Premier League for the precise reasons they came to the decision they did.
Mike Gaynes
302 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:54:51
Rob #296, personally I'm delighted our players aren't being exposed to a club that has had at least eight and possibly more virus cases diagnosed in the past four days. Seems like their entire club would have been exposed. The people most at risk would have been ours.
Barry Connor
304 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:55:43
Given that City have Covid problems and we have fitness problems (Allan, James etc), is a postponement such a bad deal?

If we had lost heavily to a full-strength Man City side, would that have not burst our bubble?

Will Mabon
305 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:56:30
Neil, do you remember details of why, extents etc? It got by me, I will see what I can find out but was unaware.

"Significant increase in cases at Newcastle's training ground".

Mike Connolly
306 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:56:30
Think it works for us being cancelled. Some of our players were looking like one game away from a hamstring pull.
Tom Harvey
307 Posted 28/12/2020 at 18:59:12
Mike Gaynes @ 298

Give them all masks and get stuck into them while they're weak. I have a feeling the snow, sleat and and cold would have suited us more than them tonight.

A chance gone a-begging!

Seriously though, looking logically at what you've stated the whole Newcastle team has to be isolated also? The knock-on effects will take a while to sort out?

Ian Riley
308 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:00:48
Tony #31

Yes, I agree. Always found Martinez very polite about the club.

Perhaps a big cheque to financial freedom helps.

Thomas Richards
309 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:02:02
Mike,

Genuinely interested here.

I know Covid is intelligent. It knows not to attack us until 10pm curfew.
It knows not to attack us while eating in a pub.
How would it know to only attack those in a blue shirt?

Don Alexander
310 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:04:18
Haven't read all the postponement posts but my guess is that, if our players were asked, they'd opt to postpone, Covid-19's (now plural) being able to knobble even the fittest among us for Gawd knows how long, and maybe forever.
Neil Copeland
311 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:04:22
Will #306, sorry mate I am just repeating what a couple of posters told me in response to my earlier comments. Would be interesting to see how the 2 postponements compare though.
Danny O’Neill
312 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:05:53
It's a virus and pandemic Tom. Rules are almost "be seen to do something". I get that it's about preserving hospital capacity but, to my knowledge, you don't beat mother nature very often. Remaining fit and healthy is an age-old renowned means of better equipping the body to fight disease when we unfortunately succumb to it.

Yet right now, gyms are closed (places that are inherently hygienic and attract fit healthy people). Yet I can still order as many double Big Macs as I wish to add to my obesity problem so, if I do contract, I'll be worse placed to fight it.

I get what you're saying but there's no logic in decision making from Day One. They've let the overly sensational media dictate the narrative. We are probably agreeing or finding common ground somewhere here.

Anyway, back to Everton: nice thread Tony Hill. It didn't work out for Roberto but, as you say, the man did and has conducted himself with great humility towards Everton.

Rob Halligan
313 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:11:24
Thomas 309, Covid even seems to know it's been given New Year's Eve off. Aren't we allowed to mix with other people other than the normal "bubble" or group of six, on New Year's Eve?
Mike Gaynes
314 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:14:47
Tom #307, beats me. I don't know much about the rules and testing schedules. But if any of the newly-diagnosed players were on the pitch against the barcodes, could be.

Thomas #309, our players haven't been exposed and theirs apparently all have, so it's a good thing we won't be bumping into them today. As some here like to say, simples.

Tony #300, that's one reason he failed here... couldn't say anything but nice things about the team, even when they deserved otherwise!

Sean O´Hanlon
315 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:14:50
Obviously, you don't wish anyone to catch Covid. But squads that do catch it, must have broken strict safety protocols, and therefore should be punished by forfeiting the games. Harsh I know, but other sports have taken this stance.
Mike Gaynes
316 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:19:23
Rob #313, not a problem for me. Nobody's invited me to a party in decades. At least the pandemic gives me a better excuse than my inherent lack of charm.
Will Mabon
317 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:19:48
We'll see, Neil. It's all vague. Not aware of (and can't discover) anything stated as to when a postponement would kick in or not, and whose decision it ultimately is, i.e. club alone, club referring situation to Premier League, external medical input, and from where, and so on.

As I said earlier, if there are no boundaries or quantification then it's a potential minefield open to abuse or opportunism, should a side feel compromised etc.

Rob Hooton
318 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:22:35
Mike, agree completely – glad that they never got off the coach, and all that.
Thomas Richards
319 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:22:53
Rob,

I could not go next door to have a coffee with my mate a few weeks ago. We could both however get on a packed train, travel 100 miles and have a coffee in a packed-to-the-gills coffee shop.

Many, many more examples of the stupidity of the rules.

Brian Williams
320 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:25:41
Here we go again. We have those who can't take the postponement with good grace and at face value but want to attempt to create some sort of underhanded evil scheme.

And to the poster who points out gyms are closed. They're not in Tier 2 areas, though they're closed during usual holidays.

And as for being allowed to eat as many McDonalds as you like? Of course you are. What would you suggest, being limited on your Big Mac purchases depending on your BMI?

Some ToffeeWeb posters really do provide comedy gold sometimes.

Tony Hill
321 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:26:18
Another nice result at Chelsea. The stars are aligning.
Thomas Richards
322 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:28:10
Who is doing that, Brian?

Personally I am happy with the postponed game.

Danny O’Neill
323 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:28:12
Yes Mike, Roberto was too much the nice guy. I consider myself "glass half-full" but he is "glass full-full".

Well, if there's any truth in the earlier Lampard - Tuchel rumours, I wonder if that's just poured fuel on that fire?

Two good results from our perspective today.

Don Alexander
324 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:28:28
To me, Martinez was to Premier League management what Reg Prescott was to DIY;

https://youtu.be/MU2BO5Obg2k

Nice bloke, dangerously incompetent, but, in Martinez's case, only to everyone else.

Robert Williams
325 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:29:52
Re me @ 23 Told you so, those results are all going our way, pity we didn't get the chance to tear Man City a new one!! Still, a nice break before The Ginger One shows up again.
Tony Hill
326 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:31:33
Oh yes, Don, good manners don't necessarily equal competence. Often the reverse. You and Mike are right about Roberto; in Carlo's case, let's hope we have the best of both worlds.
Danny O’Neill
327 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:31:49
Thanks Brian. Never been referred to as a comedian before but I'll take the complement!!
Will Mabon
328 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:32:07
Brian, might be as well to distinguish between questioning Covid itself and those concerned re. the process – for the sake of clarity.

We should know the process behind the decision – it may have a greater and important bearing later on, as teams come under pressure. Face value is the lazy way. I think should there be an "Evil" chance for certain managers, they'd take it!

Will Mabon
329 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:35:06
As above, yes, other results are sort of running for us... nice.
Brian Cleveland
330 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:35:14
All a red shite conspiracy... they knew that when we beat City 11-0 we'd go top and knock them off their perch for New Year, bastards!
Will Mabon
331 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:37:35
Brian :)

It's ALWAYS their fault, even when it isn't.

Danny O’Neill
332 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:40:02
Yes; to be clear: I'm not jumping to conclusions or claiming conspiracy but it will be interesting to understand the full details.
Rob Halligan
333 Posted 28/12/2020 at 19:59:10
Mike # 316. You're welcome here anytime mate for a knees up, know wot oi mean Guv?
Ernie Baywood
334 Posted 28/12/2020 at 20:00:57
We need to know the process so it can't be abused.

But if City are riddled with COVID, then it's the right call regardless.

Rob Halligan
335 Posted 28/12/2020 at 20:01:40
Brian #320. Bad news, mate, you can't to the West Ham game as all those due to go tonight have been told we can go on Friday. Sorry mate!! 😁😁😁
Andy Meighan
336 Posted 28/12/2020 at 20:18:09
Don't know if anyone else saw the official team sheet. That was one strange line-up, 8 defenders:

Godfrey Brantwaithe Nkonkou Holgate Keane Mina Coleman Kenny with midfielder Doucouré and centre-forward Tosun. Obviously Pickford in goal.

I'd have been delighted with a draw with set-up.

Andy Finigan
337 Posted 28/12/2020 at 20:23:32
You know what, fellow Evertonians, a few days ago, we would've bit your hand off for a gap of 4 days between fixtures due to our injuries and tired limbs.

Now, here we are, with that situation and it could be a blessing in disguise. We won't know for a time. Maybe, just maybe, the stars of Bethlehem have aligned.

Tom Harvey
338 Posted 28/12/2020 at 20:24:57
Danny O'Neill @ 312,

My mother, who's in here late 70s, has had cancer twice and a large part of one lung removed. She has been told by her specialist and GP she absolutely cannot catch this virus; if she does, the NHS will most probably do nothing for her other than give her some sympathy.

I was in Sainsbury's recently and there was some brassy tart with big rollers in her hair and no mask on, coughing her head off. I gave her a look of disgust, she returned the look of disgust, walked away, turned around and smiled at me.

I'm fighting to keep my mother alive and the law gives slags like that all the protection they could want instead of punishment. She's arrested in France, Germany, this list goes on.... this country is a disgrace.

Brian Williams
339 Posted 28/12/2020 at 20:30:48
Oi, Rob Halligan, Noooooooo!

Joking aside, mate, if there's a review due on the 30th of this month, I'll be really surprised if supporters are still allowed to attend come 1 January. Fingers crossed but what needs to be done must be done.

Patrick McFarlane
340 Posted 28/12/2020 at 20:31:29
I have no argument with the decision to postpone the match, as health is far more important than anything else. However, I thought that games had to take place regardless of some players being struck down with the illness, after-all Newcastle had to play on in recent weeks, despite having some players ill.

I'm not very enamored with the FA Premier League either, Man City contacted them, they had a board meeting and then thought it prudent to inform Everton FC, not exactly the procedure I would expect seeing as Everton were the hosts for tonight's game.

John Boon
341 Posted 28/12/2020 at 20:32:14
I really would not want the game to be played if "Health Conditions" were not in place. I was looking forward to the game, although it would have been a challenge.

I just watched Aston Villa vs Chelsea and I do think we can compete with any team this season with the possible exception of West Brom. They have been on a one-game drawing streak.

We may even be better prepared for the new Man City game when it comes along. It is always good to have a game in hand, no matter who it is against. COYB

Will Mabon
342 Posted 28/12/2020 at 20:32:37
"If she does, the NHS will most probably do nothing for her other than give her some sympathy."

Sadly, Tom, you would likely be right – along with pressure to sign "Do not resuscitate" forms, of which I have personal experience.

This country is indeed becoming a disgrace, and not by accident.

Paul Hewitt
343 Posted 28/12/2020 at 20:35:49
This virus is never ever going away, even with the vaccine. We need to find a better way of living with it.
Derek Knox
344 Posted 28/12/2020 at 20:37:10
Patrick @ 340, wholeheartedly agree in the interests of Safety to postpone the match, but it is the timing that I would question. Furthermore, from what I can gather, Everton, who were hosting the game, were the last to be informed.

Like someone mentioned before, Newcastle had to soldier on with depleted numbers, so what makes Man City a different case? Or have I got that wrong?

Will Mabon
345 Posted 28/12/2020 at 20:42:19
Paul, that belief drives a coach and horses through much of what has been widely held and disseminated over the last century re contagions and vaccination, and is what certain parties now wish to be instigated as the common belief.

What happened to "Eradication"?

Patrick McFarlane
346 Posted 28/12/2020 at 20:45:58
Derek #344,

I said exactly that, Newcastle United had to play with a depleted squad. Anyway, just read a rumour that due to our neighbours dropping points yesterday that the Premier League have said No to Everton and Manchester City rearranging tonight's match and the boys from over the park will be awarded the three points instead, to protect the Premier League's commercial interests (only joking, folks!)

Rob Halligan
347 Posted 28/12/2020 at 20:46:01
Brian 339, sadly I think you're right mate.
Alex Gray
348 Posted 28/12/2020 at 20:58:41
I back the game being postponed. I do feel something is a bit dodgy about this though. Teams have had cases and games have gone ahead. Leyton Orient, whilst being in a different competition, must be furious they had to forfeit but bigger teams get to rearrange.
Patrick McFarlane
349 Posted 28/12/2020 at 20:59:56
I didn't realise that rearranged fixtures were at the behest of the Premier League; I thought it was down to the two clubs involved:

The League wishes those with COVID-19 a safe and speedy recovery and will rearrange the postponed fixture against Everton in due course.

Therefore, I assume the rearranged fixture will be scheduled for a date that suits our neighbours or Manchester United or whichever third party holds a financial interest.

MSN news reports the following:

Indeed, the English top-flight gave the go-ahead for the game to be postponed despite outlining strict protocols to teams ahead of the 2020-21 season getting underway back in September.

Clubs were told that, unless they have less than 14 players available, requests to postpone games will be rejected.

They were also urged to tap into their U21 squads to ensure that they fulfill their fixtures.

It had also been made clear to clubs in guidance sent out by the Premier League that any player who has played even a minute of first-team football will be seen as an option should their squads become depleted due to the illness, reported the Daily Mail.

Tom Harvey
350 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:01:20
Will Mabon @ 342

Hello Will,

I didn't want to pull a football thread into a Covid debate and I was feeling like a bit of ranting misery after I pressed the button and so withdrew it.

Yes, you're right. It's not by accident, these are very intelligent and devious types that are controlling our destiny and it will be by mostly luck alone if I should survive this without tears shed.

Will, I could give quite a discourse on the survival strategies of our establishment during these times, but I think you will notice I said survival of the "Establishment" and not the nation, to give you some indication where my mindset is.

Paul A Smith
351 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:07:40
Great result again for us tonight in the Chelsea - Aston Villa game after Leicester drawing. Teams around us dropping points against each other is just what the doctor ordered.

Paul Hewitt, I totally agree. This is just crazy now, mutations, 95% vaccines, we need to learn to cope with it.

Be interesting to see how many Man City players are actually ill?

Will, I also have experience of a recent DNR the family found unusual. I don't trust these people at all now. Fans need to be back at the match and getting on with their lives again.

Patrick McFarlane
352 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:11:46
Agreed, Paul #351,

However, a congested second-half of the season awaits us, starting on Friday, where we'll have 23 games to play before the end of the season, plus any FA Cup ties that we might be involved in.

Ian Riley
353 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:12:01
What's dodgy? If a number of players are covid positive with no symptoms then potentially more players may have it. I don't want our players exposed to it.

Surely the Premier League management have asked for evidence of Covid results? Man City have nothing to gain calling the game off for any other reason then Covid cases. We have many players out, knackered from 46 hours ago. I only see the positives for us.

On the other hand, the timing seems strange? Either players had symptoms today or results were known yesterday? All we know is today has set some kind of precedent regarding Covid and postponement of fixtures.

Paul A Smith
354 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:16:44
Patrick 352. Time for the board to act, mate. Let's not miss out again. The opportunity is there to improve and we need more quality or at least a quality loan.

Momentum is with us mate and we have coped with the number of games so far and our opponents will have the same issues going forward.

Let's hope we get players back fit and go into the last 15 games looking strong.

Robert Williams
355 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:17:18
Paul 351. 'Be interesting to see how many City players are actually ill?'

The whole lot will be as sick as parrots if we keep on winning and will try ALL the tricks in the book to ensure the Sky Darlings are steered into the correct positions come the end of the season.

Patrick McFarlane
356 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:17:31
Ian #353,

It might not have suited Manchester City to play tonight due to the following guidelines set out by the Premier League in September.

Clubs were told that, unless they have less than 14 players available, requests to postpone games will be rejected.

They were also urged to tap into their U21 squads to ensure that they fulfill their fixtures.

Testing negative isn't a guarantee that a player doesn't have Covid19 and they can easily transmit it to other players during a match.

Paul A Smith
357 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:19:39
Aye, Robert, that will certainly be endemic in the Sky Sports universe, mate. 😅
Kevin Molloy
358 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:20:22
The current Premier League table is just a thing of beauty. We have made between 6 and 10 points on all of our rivals in the course of this month. Barely seems possible for them all to have dropped so many points. Spurs and Chelsea, like 10 points dropped... amazing.
Paul Hewitt
359 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:35:14
Patrick@356. What's the point of testing if negative means you could still have it?.
Will Mabon
360 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:36:17
Tom @ 350:

No worries, I didn't know if you withdrew it or it was moderated.

We perhaps have some similar understanding. Best of luck with your Mum - been there.

Will Mabon
361 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:41:42
Paul @ 351:

Getting on with life would be nice; a possibly long and very difficult road ahead, to say the least, that will open some eyes.

How I'd love to be at a full Goodison on Friday...

Patrick McFarlane
362 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:42:15
Paul #359
Testing is necessary but it doesn't guarantee a correct result, even the better tests aren't 100% accurate. I don't know what tests the clubs use but if it is the 'instant results' type they are less reliable than those that are processed by laboratories.

I imagine that Manchester City due to their wealthy benefactors would have the best tests available to them and I wouldn't be surprised if they have in-house laboratories either, so they are probably correct in recognising an outbreak when it occurs.

Derek Thomas
363 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:42:44
Obviously on the surface, the right decision...peoples safety...based on a number of reasons.

How many of those reasons are health related is the real question, as too many times you get a whiff of some being more equal than others in this man's Premier League.

Draws in the other games, Injuries not withstanding and a few extra days rest, its not the worst out come ever.

Danny O’Neill
364 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:47:12
Tom, you touch a raw nerve. The C word has hit my family hard over the years. My mother didn't make 60, my father only got to 63 so you have to forgive my sometimes cynicism. Cancer will be around effecting many more lives than Covid after we learn to live with Covid, which we will. I by no means meant to offend anyone, I just find irony in denying people to go out and pursue good health through keeping fit (yes in certain tiers), whereas bad diet is promoted. Having lived in Germany where promoting fitness is part of the national health strategy, I'm big on that.

I guess this comes back to personal choice. We seem to have fallen into the trap where we expect to be dictated to by central Government as opposed to being presented with advice and guidance and making our own decisions.

Back to my point, I mean no offence and take health serious. I guess through personal experience I just see things different.

And final apologies for distracting from what we come on here to talk about. Football and above all, Everton.

Paul Hewitt
365 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:48:07
I actually think having lockdowns is prolonging this virus.
Danny O’Neill
366 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:53:43
If we are allowed to say that, Paul, I would agree. It denies the inevitable. As I said earlier, politicians, the media, and us mortals alike can claim to know how to defeat Mother Nature as much as we want but, to my knowledge, she's a pretty fearsome opponent sadly.
Mark Boullé
367 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:57:26
Paul Hewitt #365,

Of course they are, how much more evidence do we need that lockdowns don't work?! After months of lockdowns around the world, hard ones, soft ones and everything in between... Covid is still here, the mutation is still making its way around...

It is incredibly arrogant of governments, the WHO and anybody else to think humans can "control" something so small and so transmissible.

The only correct approach was herd immunity from the start, but intensive Chinese lockdown propaganda, blind panic and an incompetent government put paid to that sadly...

Anyway, after getting over my disappointment at not having a game to watch tonight, I suppose I'm not too fussed that our thinly stretched squad can rest until Friday, and then has another mini-break of a few days before the Rotherham game...

Patrick McFarlane
368 Posted 28/12/2020 at 21:57:30
Paul #365,

Lockdowns are a blunt instrument against the virus if not accompanied by some sort of effective test and trace system. Lockdowns don't cause the virus to spread, people who refuse to wear masks, to keep their distance from others, or fail to wash their hands regularly do spread the virus and therefore prolong the time until we may return to some semblance of normality.

Danny O’Neill
369 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:03:12
Don't start me off, Patrick. Way back in April, we can't meet or sit separated in pubs but can clamber over each other in a Tesco Express! Like you say, wear a face covering and maintain social distancing and follow basic hygiene and we arguably wouldn't need lockdown.

I find it concerning that a large percentage of the population required a pandemic to be reminded that good hygiene and staying fit / healthy helps you combat disease. I seem to remember being taught that as a '70s child from 5 years old.

2020. The year we had to be told to wash our hands.

Paul Hewitt
370 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:04:27
Patrick @365. I agree, it's actually people prolonging this virus. So I don't see the point of lockdowns.
Rob Halligan
371 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:08:12
So John (Patrick), # 362, you mean the likes of Everton can't just roll up at Wavertree Tennis centre, have a covid test, and then get their result texted to them half an hour later?

The whole squad could get a test on the morning the day before a match and, before they get back to Finch Farm, they could all have their result. Anyone found positive is sent straight home, the rest carry on training. Seems straight-forward to me!! 😁😁😁

Paul Hewitt
372 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:08:20
Mark @367. You only need to look at the Spanish flu between 1918-1920. Yes, it killed millions but that was down to very poor living conditions and poor health care. It eventually died out.
Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
373 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:13:56
Lockdowns do not work in democracies.

Let's be truthful. It is that we live in a democracy that means the lockdown hasn't done the job – not that the lockdown has failed.

Put us in a good highly controlled police or military state, then the lockdown would solve this whole thing in 4 weeks. Nobody allowed out. Not even for a walk (it was like that in Spain). No shops open. No eating out. No visitors to the country unless they were taken off the plane into a hotel or camp and held there until tested or gone through quarantine. None of this, "Okay, please now go home and stay there for 14 days." None of this "Please stop this meeting" - but "Please come with me" and "You are going to gaol."

Of course we could abandon the lockdowns and then we could get to herd immunity in a matter of weeks. In the meantime, the hospitals would be overflowing and refusing patients, crematoriums with bodies stacked up, and 500,000 dead – but at least we would be over it.

Interesting choice isn't it? And those are the choices of proper lockdown or no lockdown. So we have to get along with the halfway house we have at the moment.

And just a thought. Global deaths are now 1,78M. The Spanish Flu of 1918 was 50M and more likely 100M as they had no idea how many died in India. Doing well so far.

Patrick McFarlane
374 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:14:54
Rob #371,

All that I was stating is that the tests aren't foolproof and obviously those tests that are returned quickly aren't as accurate as those that go to the labs.

Paul #372

Perhaps we should send those of a certain age or those with underlying health conditions on a one-way trip to Switzerland? We can't fight nature, can we?

Danny O’Neill
375 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:18:32
To my point, Phil. I'm not downplaying this but we have let the 24/7 news broadcasters absolutely take control.

Ultimately it's a numbers game. Keep hospital capacity at a manageable level.

Actually death rates are not that high... and I hate using death as a statistic.

Paul Hewitt
376 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:22:57
Patrick@364. People with health issues should be looked after. My own mum is in the very high category. But, like she says: What's the point of life if you can't live it?
Danny O’Neill
377 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:24:42
Back on footballing point, it will be interesting to know exactly why they called it off.

We all register a squad of 25 players. So, if City have had 12 of those players test positive, they meet the rule of not having 14 players available and it's a valid call.

Otherwise, they are backed by the Premier League because they couldn't put a team out that they wanted to?

Paul A Smith
378 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:30:09
Patrick, not really. Protecting them and being sensible around them would be far more ideal.

Pretty much something we should do in general life anyway.

Paul Birmingham
379 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:34:08
Everton and all Evertonians are entitled to know what's happened this afternoon.

If the preseason set of Covid-19 Premier League management and track and trace and test processes are no longer good enough, then the whole world must take stock.

Let's see what is published by the Premier League but, if true, Everton were the last to know as the host club, then that's not the way business is done, and it remains to see what Man City say on this incident.

Do players get Covid-19 tested as a mandatory process on the day of every match? If so, then the Man City squad must be decimated, and thus they can't play any match for the next 10 days. That would impact on their second half of this season.

I'm all for fairness and genuinely don't wish poor health to any footballers or teams, but the timing today does add some more interest and makes you wonder is there a new super-strain of Covid-19?

Or is this a tactical ploy all considered and bearing the RS result yesterday, foul weather, and the Premier League is wide open for potentially 7 teams who can put together decent winning runs.

The learning for the game from today's decision is important and the publication of the Premier League's cause-and-effect analysis and rationale to postpone the match is massive.

Everton are in a good place, let's hope the momentum, is maintained on New Year's Day.

Duncan McDine
380 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:36:14
Seen a couple of comments suggesting that herd immunity will solve this worldwide pandemic. The Swedes tried it (following our lead before we chickened out), only to discover that you don't become immune to the virus for very long.

Oops - loads of people died and it is just as ‘out of control' as anywhere still. There's no obvious answer to how we cope with this virus, and if there is, it won't be found on ToffeeWeb.

Mike Gaynes
381 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:41:53
Rob #333, no, I don't know that one, but it sorta sounds like something I'd rather do with my wife!
Chris Williams
382 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:42:44
Paul @372,

Covid prevalence and mortality is also directly linked to poor living conditions and poor health care in this country. Right now, today. Directly linked, look it up.

Herd immunity is a nonsense unless 80% of the population is infected. Look it up for yourselves but not from sources in any way connected to the Koch brothers.

The death toll would be immense. Lockdowns are proven to work in suppression of the transmission of the virus. This is indisputable. However, in this country, it is mainly meant to prevent ‘our NHS' from being swamped. But not so great for the economy. What we know is we can't do both. Best for the government to pick which one it favours.

It's probably a reasonable idea not to blame the general population for the feckless spread of the virus, when we have a government whose job it is to direct the way we deal with it. It just lets the government off the hook.

Patrick McFarlane
383 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:42:56
As reported by George Flood for the London Evening Standard last week:

In football, players in the Premier League have been tested on a weekly basis since the start of the 2020-21 season, but testing at clubs in Tier 4 areas will now revert to the twice-a-week level used during 'Project Restart' in the summer as soon as it is practically possible.

The increased testing will be widened out to clubs in lower-tier areas from next month, it is understood.

Meanwhile, from the same outlet:

Chelsea will seek assurances that it is safe for their game with Manchester City to go ahead on Sunday.

Pep Guardiola's side were supposed to face Everton on Monday – only for that game to be called off at a late stage due to a “number of positive cases” of Covid-19 in the camp.

City are due to travel to Stamford Bridge on Sunday, but that game is now in doubt.

Danny O’Neill
384 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:44:23
Agree Duncan. Like the human race has never found a way to combat Mother Nature previously.

As you allude to, there has been different approaches country by country, region by region, but guess what: the graphs and patterns have broadly been the same regardless.

It's a virus. It spreads, it mutates and we will live with it as we have done previously. I'm more concerned with cancer as that kills more and will continue to kill more... but that's just a personal family thing.

Bobby Mallon
385 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:44:26
Mark 367, lets get this straight. Not having enough highly trained intensive care doctors and nurses and ventilators is the only reason for lockdown and that falls on all governments past and present who have been warned about a pandemic like this for 20 yrs or more. If we had more trained people then the nightingale hospitals could be used for just covid specific people and the rest of us could still use the hospitals for our cancer treatments and everything else
John Keating
386 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:45:45
Phil
As soon as international flights started up again early July from then until early September I did 3 international trips
Had to fly via Copenhagen as they have a clinic there at the airport covid test, results and cert all in 2 hours
Coming back into UK not ONE question where I’d been. Self service passport check at airport, get my bag and home.
Overseas masks, checks, everything, here well shite really
Neighbour got his girl a flat when she went back to Uni for second year. What she didn’t know was he gave her neighbours his number
Couple of days in the flat he got a call. SIXTY of the bastards having a party!!! He went over read the riot act but who knows.
Lockdown, no lockdown, track and trace, testing makes no difference when you’re dealing with halfwits
Go down to Lime Street and see how busy the trains are from the Lancashire towns all coming in to party.
Dale Self
387 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:46:19
Paul @365, the lockdowns serve to reduce the intensity of exposure. The transmissibility of the virus is the concept missing from your observation. It does prolong the existence but it is reducing the intensity of transmissibility.

For those thinking herd immunity is the way, take a moment to calculate the damage at 65% to 75% aggregate exposure. We are at roughly 10-15% when I checked a couple of months back.

Danny O’Neill
388 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:46:30
And hating to use deaths as a statistic, as I stated earlier, but Sweden's aren't much different to ours if you do them as a percentage of the population.
Jamie Crowley
389 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:47:10
A "number of positive cases" is pretty fucking vague.

Is there any reason we can't be told the precise number of cases?

Paul Hewitt
390 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:50:10
Chris @382.

If we are going to have a lockdown... fine, but make it for a month for everyone apart from supermarkets and hospitals.

What's the point if pubs can open if they serve food?

Danny O’Neill
391 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:51:19
Are we becoming obsessed by transmission of the virus versus lethality? Providing we vaccinate the most vulnerable, does it matter that it spreads amongst a majority that, by-and-large, won't be affected?

I'm more concerned by the fight against cancer to be honest.

Danny O’Neill
392 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:54:27
When we are allowed to have the conversation without being called a non-believer, I would like to see the actual figures of those who died of Covid and nothing else. Not "tested positive in the last 28 days" but failing to read out the small print of dying of other causes. It is inflating the figures.
Paul Hewitt
393 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:57:04
Danny @392. Good luck with that.
Dale Self
394 Posted 28/12/2020 at 22:59:40
Counting deaths will have to be reconciled with the coroners and morticians who are seeing numbers way in excess of normal actuarial expectations. Some, if not most of these excess deaths are attributable to Covid-19, they just didn't make it or weren't allowed in the hospital for the official ruling.

To cite the political deals made as criticism of lockdowns is absurd. Do them properly and don't cut politically expedient deals and they work just fine. I think the cross-country analyses of outcomes establishes this rather well for anyone willing to take a look.

Jay Harris
395 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:01:39
Duncan, where did you read that we don't stay immune to the virus for very long?
Dale Self
396 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:03:50
Jamie 389, the variety of tests and the different rates of accuracy make it a statistical scattershot.
Patrick McFarlane
397 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:04:37
Danny #392,

Have you seen the stressed-out medical professionals who have dealt with patients affected by this virus and their reaction to it?

You could be right: the figures may well be inflated to a degree... all I know is that I don't want any of my family or friends to contract Covid-19 given the destruction and havoc it can cause to those who it affects the most.

Danny O’Neill
398 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:08:12
I'll tell you something, this inevitably was going to go down the Covid route tonight, but as always it's been great debate with different opinions.

Sums up this forum. We can exchange our views be that about Everton or wider topics.

Looking forward to New Year's Day. Looking forward to where we will be in May. Looking forward to next season! If I don't get the chance have a great New Year fellow Evertonians. We may not always agree, but the one thing that bonds us is this fantastic club the we all love and adore. NSNO. I'm off too watch Howard's Way.

Soren Moyer
399 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:09:47
Carlo's tactic for tonight was to score 10 then park the bus.
Danny O’Neill
400 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:10:57
Yes, Patrick, and I have family who work in the NHS.

I've also been that soldier on operations who quietly went about his business despite the pressures and lack of resources. That's what you sign up for, so don't complain, just get on with it.

I done 28 years and never got clapped or made the news!! I wouldn't have wanted to. I served the country but the country paid me to do so.

Rob Halligan
401 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:18:21
Just watching live cricket from New Zealand, and highlights of the Australia v India game from Melbourne. While the crowds are not excessive, they seem to be no more than usual, unless either country is playing England, but there is no sign of social distancing, wearing of face masks, basically it just looks like an everyday test match, with the crowds having a beer and generally having fun.

There are also countries, particularly around Europe who's football clubs seem to be playing in front of a decent sized crowd, yet in this country we seem to be going backwards. So what the Fuck is going on here?

Danny O’Neill
402 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:22:40
My opinion, Rob, is that we are massive scaredy cats and have let the media take over. They sulked over Brexit, so now they have this, they won't let go. They have control of a population they have put the fear of god into.
Mike Gaynes
403 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:25:08
Danny #392, et al, when you look at the death certificates, nobody dies of Covid. It's respiratory failure or pneumonia or septic shock or organ collapse caused by Covid. It's like if you jump off a cliff, the cause of death isn't the jump, it's the sudden stop at the bottom (death certificate: "multiple blunt trauma"), but you sure as hell would still be alive if you hadn't jumped. If you die of liver failure after drinking a quart of vodka a day, they don't put Grey Goose on the certificate, but that's sure as hell what took you out.

That's why the crapola about pre-existing conditions and co-morbidities is so pointless. These are people who, for all their health issues, would still be alive if they hadn't caught Covid. It's the virus that's the killer.

If I died of Covid tomorrow, I'd be listed as a 64-year-old man with multiple co-morbidities (I've been through Stage 4 cancer and the treatment gave me diabetes), and people reading the death notice would nod their heads and say, "See, it wasn't Covid, he was on his way out anyway."

They wouldn't know that I hike 7 miles for fun and do 100 pushups a day and throw 1,000 punches for warmups and now have a really good chance to live well into my eighties -- unless Covid grabs my underlying conditions and kills me with them.

It's not about what's on the official death certificate.

But I'm sure what I'm saying won't make an impression. Folks who believe it's all a media-manufactured panic tend not to be open to persuasion otherwise.

Paul Birmingham
404 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:26:07
I think the TW server has done well today, and so have all TWrs, for getting on and addressing and enquiring on today's events.

Well done to the TW network management team for a tremendous job in enabling the global analysis of all matters Everton to be so well presented and debated this year.

Here's to hoping for victory for Everton on Friday and for a positive start to what we all hope will be a better year for mankind in 2021.

Will Mabon
405 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:26:36
Danny, differing opinions are allowed re Covid... but only to a certain degree.

Other threads have proved this. I'm surprised how civil it's remained tonight.

Dale Self
406 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:27:25
Sophisticated analysis there, Danny @402. Looking forward to your podcasts.
Mike Gaynes
407 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:28:19
Rob, because Australia and New Zealand were what Danny calls "massive scaredy cats" and they slammed the doors and locked down, and continued to do so whenever the virus reared its ugly head. And because their citizens largely (especially in NZ) complied with the government directives.
Paul Hewitt
408 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:28:42
Danny @402. My fear isn't Covid. Its how easily the government has controlled people.
Patrick McFarlane
409 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:32:26
Danny, I too served in the forces and similar to you. I just got on with whatever my duties were, with whatever equipment was available, that's what we knowingly signed up to.

Civilian medical staff, on the whole, are rightfully more able to voice their opinion on matters which affect them, their patients, and their families and some may say they have a duty to point out any failings if they exist.

The media using the pandemic to scare people because they are sulking over the Brexit result has me rolling over laughing my ass off!

Danny O’Neill
410 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:35:13
That's what is great about this forum, Will, most of us remain civil and have good debate regardless of whether we agree or not.

Mike; I'm with you. My Grandfather, born and died in Garston / Speke, always said, you start dying the day you are born.

I know that is morbid, but since when did the human race believe it was immortal?

I take Jonny O'Neill from Speke's advice; enjoy life, it only comes around once.

To coin a more accomplished individual, Abraham Lincoln: "It's not the years in the life, it's the life in the years."

It's what you do with life, not how long you live.

Danny O’Neill
411 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:38:08
Which ironically, Paul, is worrying for a Conservative Government. Had it been Labour or Liberal, I'd get it... but Conservatives normally tell people to get on with it.
Mike Gaynes
412 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:39:26
Paul #408, here in America, a third of a million people have died of Covid this year. I don't think anywhere near that many have died of government control.

You want to fear government more than a killer virus, be my guest. Don't think I'll join you on that one.

Danny #410, amen and true enough, but you can best do that when your years aren't cut short by stupidity.

Dave Lynch
413 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:40:12
When I was training as a nurse some 30-odd years ago, I got the chance to go to a lecture given by an eminent medical consultant at the Tropical School of Medicine in Liverpool.

He had 3 pictures on the wall, one of an atom bomb, one of an asteroid, and one with a little black dot on it.

He pointed to the first tw and boomed out that these are the least of your worries, he then pointed to the 3rd and proclaimed, "This is a virus, ladies and gentlemen. Say hello to the extinction of the human race."

The rest of the lecture revolved around how the human race are idiots and will kill itself through self-transmission.


Paul Smith
414 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:43:41
This Government raised the white flag back in March. We were told the UK public hated rules and would flaunt any directions given even if it meant saving thy sister and brother. So it came to pass that the Government had a ready-made excuse to keep everything open and prioritise the economy (keeping the Tory Party faithful happy in the process).

It came as a surprise when suddenly most of the public obeyed the rules and even came out against the late lockdowns (which actually work) when nothing else does. Funny thing, tough on law and order is a big vote winner – meaning the public appreciate and respect a rules-based society... but, when the Government needed to appeal to that part of our nature, it chose not to, leaving it to ‘common sense' instead, for fuck's sake.

So here we are; Nightingale hospitals dismantled when needed – due to a lack of staff – what a fucking mess.

John Boon
415 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:43:54
Amazing what a postponement can do. TW posters are generally a knowledgeable bunch. Once the game was a no show, there were the expected responses from total agreement to "Why on earth, etc etc?"

After those posts, I was amazed to discover that there was an astonishing number of medical experts on Covid-19. Everton vs Man City went on the backburner as Loyal Evertonians gave advice on this pandemic.

I think it is great to know that I can safely go to ToffeeWeb to get help with my arthritis, bunions and probably a whole load of other afflictions, particularly "Everton Tension" which I suffer from for 90+ minutes on a very regular basis. As a very older Blue, any advice would be accepted. My wife often tells me that I need Help!

Scott Minetti
416 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:45:32
Rob 401, here in Melbourne we have gone 60 days without a single Covid-19 case. We were ultra cautious through the Winter months. New Zealand have been even more cautious than us and I think have gone a similar time without a case.

To give you an idea of just how cautious we are being here in Oz, in Sydney they are recording between 5 and 10 cases a day so they have put restrictions in place there to try and get us back to zero. The Sydney test may be moved to Melbourne too to try and keep numbers down.

Danny O’Neill
417 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:47:17
So what do you suggest, Dave? We live like this for the rest of time?

Haven't we always had to live with, adapt to, and cope with disease?

Or is the solution constant lockdown? I'd love to see who pays for that.

Micky Norman
418 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:47:22
Anyone got a remedy for piles?
Paul Hewitt
419 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:48:29
Mike @ 412. A virus so deadly, I can go to the pub as long as I have a meal. Sounds scary.
Danny O’Neill
420 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:51:54
Mickey @418 I think you need the BBC. They have the answer to everyone's prayers right now, piles included!!
Dave Lynch
421 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:53:57
I've worked in an Accident & Emergency Department right through this and it pisses me off when people blame the Government or are deniers – for want of a better word.

It's a virus... it needs a mode of transmission, or a carrier, to put it more simply.

These things have been around for millions of years, you don't survive that long unless you can adapt and mutate.

Use your fucking common sense, and don't give it a chance to spread.

Paul Smith
422 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:56:12
Dave, lots of people don't have common sense – they have self-centred sense.
Will Mabon
423 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:58:38
Mike @ 403, with respect, there have been many games played with cause of death, many being classed as "Dying with Covid" rather than of Covid, which is politics at work more than any attempt at medical accuracy, and also has an aspect of deniability down the line.

I have heard more than one from the horse's mouth as it were. The mother-in-law of an associate had lung cancer for several years and arrived at the stage where relatives were told she had a matter of weeks. Two weeks later, she passed and guess what went on the certificate (tested two days before death but not in the weeks preceding).

That is tenuous in any language, to say the least, medical knowledge or nay. The family agreed and it took the mention of legal action to have it changed. There are many others. Crapola/pointless it ain't.

It absolutely IS about what's on the death certificate. It's called medical ethics. If someone dies provably of Covid in isolation, then 'of' is the word, not 'with'.

Dave Lynch
424 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:59:06
Danny @147

Personally... I'm fed up with the virus and the fucking idiots who ignored the warnings from the offset.

I'm that fed up, I would go for herd immunity, in other words... just get on with it, if you catch it, you catch it.

Will Mabon
426 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:59:13
Micky - a cushion.
Dale Self
427 Posted 28/12/2020 at 23:59:17
Again, Paul @419 – you are using a political dance move to criticize the characterization of the virus which is deadly to the tune of 3-4% contracting it.
Danny O’Neill
428 Posted 28/12/2020 at 00:01:09
Good night, Evertonians. I love you all and genuinely appreciate your views on our great club.

Here's to a fantastic and successful 2021 and beyond.

Will Mabon
429 Posted 29/12/2020 at 00:03:01
Danny - "See" you Friday night.
Rob Halligan
430 Posted 28/12/2020 at 00:11:10
Scott 416. Thanks for that. Seems you are pretty close to sorting things out down under, unlike the shite we are having to put up with.

As Paul Hewitt at 419 says, we can only go to a pub if you sit down for a meal. Who's brain dead idea was that? Our local has started doing food, but only pans of such things as Scouse, chilli, sweet n sour chicken, just so they can open. For fuck's sake, you are sitting down next to total strangers that are so close you can almost count their teeth!

Barry Williams
431 Posted 28/12/2020 at 00:16:43
I wasn't going to post anything about the virus, but now sort of feel persuaded to after reading some posts on here. Also, this forum probably should be football related, just because it is an escape from what's going on, but there you go.

When the virus kicked off, I was in Hong Kong. Within a day or two of cases being found, I was getting temperature checked every time I went back to my hotel. Within a very short space of time, the likes of Disneyworld and the other tourist attractions were closed. This is going back to the end of January.

On my way back to Shanghai (for that is where I usually work), the plane was stood on the tarmac for an age, until some Hazmat suited guys came onto the plane and led an entire family off.

I had therefore been in an enclosed space with possible virus cases. Despite wearing a mask for the entire flight, it was a sobering thought. I was temperature checked on my way into Shanghai, and then on my way out again.

I had booked a flight from Shanghai to Manchester, which left me 4 days in Shanghai. In that time, I was almost forcibly put into quarantine because authorities had wrongly thought I had visited Wuhan within the previous week – I used to live in Wuhan. Once I had convinced them I hadn't with a plethora of evidence, I was left alone and I returned to the UK.

So, I returned to the UK via Istanbul, with a shed load of others from China. I arrived in Manchester, kept my mask on, and waltzed through the airport without any temperature checks or advice, along with hundreds of other passengers from my flight. Shocked I was!

I got a taxi from the airport to my home in Liverpool, where I am staying with family.

Now if I had had the virus and gone the public transport route, it is frightening how many people I could have infected. I was absolutely gobsmacked at the offhanded way things were being treated.

I then got in touch with several media outlets and the Home Office – nothing!

I self-isolated for 2 weeks, wore a mask around the house to protect others and washed my dishes in boiling water.

I only went out twice after this, and didn't feel comfortable doing so – not because of paranoia, but because zero precautions were being put in place.

So from the beginning of March this year, I haven't socialised, met people and have only gone out on my bike, whilst wearing a mask for exercise. This was to protect the people I live with. The shopping is delivered, then wiped down before being brought into the house. The neighbours probably think I have gone nuts! I am awaiting the borders reopening in China so I can return to work. Essentially, I left China to escape the virus, thinking I would be home for a month or 6 weeks at most. More fool me.

I saw how this was being dealt with here, saw how it was being dealt with in other countries like Vietnam (I lived there and have friends there) and came to the conclusion that the UK was right royally messing things up and sending out the wrong messages.

Whilst a developing country like Vietnam was getting track and trace systems ready, locking down, putting its shop keepers behind perspex glass – we were told to wash our hands and sing happy birthday. Brilliant!

This blasé attitude was and has been reflected in how people have behaved during this pandemic. I was in touch with my ex-work colleagues in Wuhan, and it was frightening the lengths that the local authorities went to to contain the case.

I saw the celebrations when Liverpool won the league, and was besides myself – nothing to do with football allegiances I assure you. I also believe that the matches should not be played, and/or no fans should be allowed in yet. Having international/European matches is utter madness, as was having a Champions League game in our city, whilst the visiting fans couldn't watch a game in their own country. Pure stupidity, as was Cheltenham.

I am in north Liverpool, and the number of people I know/my friends and family know, that have been infected by this virus is truly quite scary.

A proper lockdown is needed and there is a reason that a huge amount of countries have closed their borders to the UK. As an island, we should have isolated completely and taken much more draconian measures back in the spring; we didn't and here we are.

China does not shut down its economy for no reason, folks.

Anyways!

One good thing is that we will be able to have more fit and fresh players available for the next match! It would have been a real hard test tonight for the squad!

Sorry for the length of the article, folks!

Gerry Morrison
432 Posted 29/12/2020 at 00:19:02
Will (423) when it comes from the mother in law of an associate, or the cousin of a fella you met in the chippy, it is not coming from the horse’s mouth, as it were.
Ian Riley
433 Posted 28/12/2020 at 00:21:14
We are no further forward since last march in containing the virus. The vaccine will take another six months to role out. Let's get the basics right? Learn to live with what? A killer virus! We have missed the opportunity to get it under control. A lockdown with thousands of people flying in every day! Not compulsory to wear a mask outside. Pubs still open with rates high.

Its the attitude of some that if it doesn't affect me or my family who cares. Well it might and its not going away soon. Its not about government control but selfishness of your fellow man. What people don't realise is the NHS has always worked to full capacity. The NHS is trying to do routine treatments with a pandemic going on.

Mike Gaynes
434 Posted 29/12/2020 at 00:21:57
Barry #431, well done, sir, with your caution. I'm glad you dodged the bullet. Sounds like you got out of China just in time. My family was locked down in Wuhan for six months (even tried to wangle my wife a ticket on the Istanbul flight you mentioned). Wife got home this summer but Mom is still stuck there.

Will #423, can't speak to what happens in the UK, but here only 6% of COVID deaths are actually listed on the death certificate as "Cause of Death: COVID". Conspiracy theorists have grabbed hold of that to claim that the virus isn't really deadly. Believe what you want based on anecdotes... I'm not gonna talk you out of it.

John #415, I'm afraid that particular malady is incurable. As a matter of fact, most of us are addicted to it and actively seek it out. Tell your wife there is no help for it.

Rob Halligan
435 Posted 29/12/2020 at 00:35:00
Everton now demanding a full disclosure of the information provided by man city to the premier league

https://www.evertonfc.com/news/1958074/club-statement-manchester-city-fixture-postponement.

I hope we haven't heard the last of this, as I genuinely think city had enough players to fulfil the fixture. Whether it has been beneficial for us or not is irrelevant, because as far as I'm concerned city wanted this game postponed because it's probably their better players who have tested positive, the likes of De Bruyne and Aguero for example.

Ok, it's given us some extra time to prepare for West ham, but when the city game is rearranged, they will probably have a fully fit squad to pick from.

Barry Williams
436 Posted 29/12/2020 at 00:36:35
Mike Gaynes - 434

Hi Mike, moved out of Wuhan in November 2018 to go to Shanghai. I was living in a place called Jiangxia.

China now seems largely back to normal. There are cases for sure, but my friend are telling me life is virtually back to normal. In my job we need to travel all over China, so it has only restarted in the last 2 months. But, I missed the opportunity to get back, not thinking the borders would be closed again.

It must have been really stressful for you and your family, I know Wuhan was closed to the outside world virtually. Hope it works our with the mother-in-law mate!

I have made it my duty to tell anyone who'd listen what the situation is, from the delivery men from the supermarkets, to everyone I know!

Just an aside - People who get the virus and survive can be debilitated in a number of ways for varying periods of time. It is sometimes not as simple as just recovering from it.

Jack Convery
437 Posted 29/12/2020 at 00:38:37
Barry 431 says it all for me. As usual for the UK Lions lead by donkeys.

As for tonights game being called off a blessing in disguise. We have enough injuries with sickness being brought into Goodison and the players get a break from a ridiculous schedule for EFC anyway.

David Pearl
438 Posted 29/12/2020 at 00:40:51
A very different tw tonight. Mike G you make a lot of sense and get things across very well, thank you.

We will remain in this mess for some time to come. In fact, l recon it will be the same next Christmas. How can it not be? We live amongst and carry among us so many idiots that cant be controlled or reasoned with. Our governments can't do what we need them to do, which is to be tough, for fear of revolt.

We are an island and still can't control it because we can't control the muppets. Close everything. Close the borders and don't open them again till every other country has eliminated new cases and also has a vacination. Or do we have to live like this forever?

Barry Williams
439 Posted 29/12/2020 at 00:41:06
Mike Gaynes 434

Did you ever frequent Brussels Bar in Wuhan, owned by Dave from Belgium funnily enough!

Barry Williams
440 Posted 29/12/2020 at 00:42:14
Jack Convery - 437

The break really will do the squad a world of good.

Will Mabon
441 Posted 29/12/2020 at 00:50:01
Gerry - a business associate from the mid 90s til now, that I speak to almost monthly. It didn't come from the mother-in-law, she was the subject - and I didn't mention a chippy.

Poor reading skills, Gerry!

Rob Halligan
442 Posted 29/12/2020 at 00:54:00
FFS, this thread has been so long that I'd forgotten the title of it. exactly what I posted at # 435.

Ah well, never mind, I still stick by everything else I said!

Will Mabon
443 Posted 29/12/2020 at 00:54:51
Mike 434 - not anecdotes. Read again. But yes, we are both welcome to our beliefs and opinions.

"but here only 6% of COVID deaths are actually listed on the death certificate as "Cause of Death: COVID"."

Eh? So they're not the cause of death then?

Mike Gaynes
444 Posted 29/12/2020 at 01:01:00
Ni hao, Barry... wow, Jiangxha, you were really out in the boonies, eh? No, I never hit that particular pub when I was there. Family is on the campus of Wuhan University of Science, right by the river. I lived briefly in Shanghai too, in the Jing An district.

China may be back to "normal" overall, but in Hubei that's just on the surface. You've got 11 million people walking around Wuhan with PTSD, still in shock at what happened to them. And China itself is still massively paranoid... the recent cluster caused them to shut down visitors to nursing homes nationwide, so the family can't visit Dad, even though none of the new cases was in Wuhan.

Mike Gaynes
445 Posted 29/12/2020 at 01:04:18
Will, as Gerry said at #432, if it's secondhand -- somebody that somebody knows -- it's anecdotal.
Barry Williams
446 Posted 29/12/2020 at 01:12:42
Mike Gaynes - 444

Yes, Jiangxia is certainly out in the sticks, rough as you like and not the best place for a foreigner to live, that's why I used to get an hour 20 or so taxi ride into the centre of Wuhan and stay in a nice hotel a couple of times a month - just to feel civilised! I think where you family lives is a bit nicer than Jiangxia - I saw some things that just plain shocked me!

I can imagine how the people in Hubei are still reeling from it. I know quite a lot of people there still, so get some info from them.

Jiang An was pretty close to my first apartment, I was right near Shanghai station and used to go into Jiang An quite a lot, my boxing club was there - run by an ex-female world champion from London called Michele Aboro - a lovely lady!

But yes, I have been telling all and sundry how real this thing is - some listen - some don't!

I regularly get emails from work about where the new cases have been found - they certainly are very strict when dealing with it. Hence, why I was nearly forcibly quarantined.

Brian Wilkinson
447 Posted 29/12/2020 at 01:24:34
David@438, what we need to do is like you say close everything down, apart from key workers, also do a full lockdown for say 18 Days and keep the schools closed as well.

Three times now we have had a lockdown and three times we have left schools open.

We should have had a full lockdown from 27 December while the schools were closed, instead we will probably get tiers upped on Wednesday, and then probs go into lockdown a week later, just as the schools reopen.

Barry Williams
448 Posted 29/12/2020 at 01:29:18
Brian Wilkinson - 447

The teachers are actually being required to test the students in the classroom for the virus.

So instead of closing the schools down, teachers will have to get closer to the students!

I am aghast at how this has been handled since arriving back in the UK!

Mike Gaynes
449 Posted 29/12/2020 at 02:03:31
Hey Barry #446, I read something about Michele and her boxing club on ESPN during the lockdown! Cool that you used to work out there.

https://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/29021111/boxing-pioneer-michele-aboro-rebuilds-gym-china-coronavirus

I lived pretty near there, on Wanhangdu Rd. near the Jing'an Temple. But that was in the early 2000's, way before she was there.

So what were you doing out in the Hubei countryside? My wife took me to Liangzi Lake once for a weekend, but the hotel was not exactly the Ritz.

Mike Gaynes
450 Posted 29/12/2020 at 02:09:22
Will #434, you might want to reread my post #403 about the irrelevancy of the "cause of death" entry on the certificate -- and how COVID is the reason, like falling off the cliff is the reason if not the "cause".

Poor reading skills, Will!

Barry Williams
451 Posted 29/12/2020 at 02:20:32
Mike Gaynes - 449

Excellent article - I didn't realise she trained with the Klitschkos and Golovkin, wow! I would certainly have been bothering her with stories about them. Glad the gym is still open. It was mad busy when I went there, I didn't do the classes, trained on my own - I used to fight, but that was quite a while ago - being 50 now and all. I think they'd hear me coming to the ring from about 10 metres away with all my cracking joints!!!

But yeah, a lot of businesses have suffered and the likes of myself have been heavily hit. I have basically been on a retainer wage since February, which covers the cost of my apartment - Shanghai ain't cheap as you know! Luckily, got a few friends in my place now covering rent, so at least have some incomings at last!!!!

I often visit the area near the temple, lots of good sushi places there! Still haven't actually been inside the temple though.

The hotel I usually booked into was the Shangri La as it was a fraction of the price in China compared to many other places, and not far from the lakes, bars and restaurants. Much needed after a few weeks in Jiangxia! Yes, the first hotel I stayed was booked by my employer, it wasn't exactly the Ritz, and most nights I would order food that I didn't know whether it was animal, vegetable or mineral, or something in-between!

I was working for a Cambridge affiliated high School out there teaching English. Sounds a lot more grandiose than it was!

Mike Corcoran
452 Posted 29/12/2020 at 02:36:51
My wife teaches about 150 kids a day in secondary school. All jumping all over each other and inseparable. The day they were breaking up a mother sent her kid in awaiting a test result. Turned out positive and about 120 kids were sent home to isolate crying they couldn’t see their grandparents. That’s criminal. Not the first time either. They should anyway be staying away from anyone vulnerable regardless of the buffoonish, population reducing policies of the Tory Feckwits. Schools management systems are a joke, they are petrified of sending people home and having their results reduced as a consequence. This school is run by despots by the way and looks after you know whose kids
Mike Corcoran
453 Posted 29/12/2020 at 02:39:28
Ra, Tre, and Curt etc
Mike Corcoran
454 Posted 29/12/2020 at 02:42:19
Eg
Barry Williams
455 Posted 29/12/2020 at 02:51:15
Mike Corcoran - 452

Your wife might have to be testing the kids for the virus herself soon! Yes, feckwittery at best!

Will Mabon
456 Posted 29/12/2020 at 02:55:08
Mike - so all your business associates, friends, colleagues - their words are all anecdotal... OK. Does that mean unreliable?

As to the cause of death thing - only 6% of Covid deaths are actually recorded as "Cause of death: Covid". What?

If it's not recorded as a Covid death, then Covid is not the cause - right? By the logic of how you say it, then deaths that are recorded as caused by respiratory failure etc. don't mention Covid. So what causes death in cases where Covid is recorded?

Mike Corcoran
457 Posted 29/12/2020 at 03:28:44
By the way my missus was not in contact with the feckwit
Nicholas Howard
458 Posted 29/12/2020 at 04:41:21
I am currently in Malaysia, South East Asia. Covid cases exploded from 13k to 106k within the time frame of 3 months following one state election. No vaccine available yet as the Malaysian government trying to secure from UK, initially from China, backed off after so many negative review on it.
Quite a numbers of death related to complications triggered by covid virus, such as diabetes and hypertension heart diseases.
The country had been in conditional lockdown since Marc 18 basically all schools off until next January...so called superbug case recorded at Singapore...Therefore conclusion is that covid makes everything sick...people health, economics etc
Jamal Paktongko
459 Posted 29/12/2020 at 07:27:34
Mike Gaynes #268
I beg to differ.

Now that we are contending for Champions League, I bet all my nickles that Barkley and Lookman could not wait to be at Finch Farm

Hell, even Peter Johnson might consider buying shares into Everton now

Jamal Paktongko
460 Posted 29/12/2020 at 07:29:42
Tony Hill #274,

Whatever local trouble he had, it will all dissappear cause the local bookies know they can make tons of cash with Barkley playing for us.

Plus no self respecting Everton fan would allow anything to happen to Barkley while he's playing for Everton.

That's half the town, dude

Jamal Paktongko
461 Posted 29/12/2020 at 07:32:53
Tony Hill #274,

Whatever Lookman did, it's all in the past.

Right now, Fulham's hope of survival rests solely on his shoulder.

It is because of him that Fulham are able to draw games which they are supposed to lose including the 1-1 draw with RS.

He damn nearly caused them to score the 3rd goal when we played them in Craven.

Also, I am hoping Everton would sign Jack Wilshere. I bet now we can sign him for a song.

He can be a good backup for James and Sigurdson plus he has won cups before so he knows what it takes to win.

Jamal Paktongko
462 Posted 29/12/2020 at 07:35:15
Nick #458

Where are u located, dude?


I'm in Malaysia too.

Steve Shave
463 Posted 29/12/2020 at 07:48:03
Jamal, I'm sure you are a nice guy an all so I don't mean to pick on your posts. However, your continued calls for us to sign on/should never have sold Lookman are just plain bizarre. Yeah he's doing ok this season, yes he has talent but he has an attitude problem and the only manager to pick him in years is Scott Parker! Let it go son. As for your calls for us to sign Jack Wilshere don't make me laugh, I wouldn't sign him even if he paid to play. What a crock!
Tony Everan
464 Posted 29/12/2020 at 07:54:44
If it turns out that Manchester City did indeed have 14 players of their squad available to play (even though they may not have been first choice players) do they then forfeit the game and hand Everton 3 points?

Or have the rules been changed at half past three yesterday afternoon?

No wonder we are asking for full disclosure, these decisions need total transparency to ensure fairness and consistency.

Thomas Richards
466 Posted 29/12/2020 at 08:17:56
Danny,#392

Deaths of relatively healthy people in uk under 60,without underlying health conditions is under 400 in total.

Derek Knox
467 Posted 29/12/2020 at 08:23:19
Tony @ 464, spot on there mate, any ruling must apply to ALL Clubs and not just the so-called elite, other teams have played with depleted numbers through Covid related issues. They will probably find a way round it by declaring the Health Factor and the concern of possibly spreading the virus to Everton personnel.

This Government have made so many blunders since the outset of this Covid issue, the only mitigating factor is that they were dealing with an unknown.

Which doesn't excuse MP's breaking the lockdown rules that they have so vehemently insisted EVERYONE has to adhere to. It has happened on several occasions too.

Making uninformed decisions in kneejerk fashion, without any evidence to support them, squandering money on various PPE that hasn't been tested or approved.

Stating right from the beginning (again misinformed) that it would only affect those over 70 or those with underlying health conditions. We are an island yet at one point were the most infected in Europe. Many young people still believe that they are immune, despite it being proved not to be the case.

Allowing people into the Country at Airports, Ferry terminals and Eurotunnel, unchecked, while sending a token minimal amount of passengers of the stricken Cruise Ship to Arrowe Park Hospital.

Sorry to use the thread as a semi-political dissatisfaction forum, but it makes my blood boil when these things have unfolded before our eyes, at the behest of a group of incompetents.

Danny O’Neill
468 Posted 29/12/2020 at 09:01:46
It is topical Derek so no need to apologise.

My issue is that it got politicised when it isn't a political issue. Most countries give or take have handled it broadly similar because politicians aren't God. Most countries are following a broadly similar pattern.

I think the UK was always going to suffer and England in particular due to population density. One of the best images and not related is the satellite view of Europe at night, which I believe ITN or one of the news channels uses. Unintentionally, it is like a map of Covid hotspots. Northern Italy, the Ruhr area of Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and then south east and northern England. A virus will spread and will do so more prevalently in areas of high population density. No politician can stop that.

I hate cancer. It has impacted my family and I wish it didn't exist. But it does and we have to learn to live, cope and deal with it.

Carl Manning
469 Posted 29/12/2020 at 09:41:31
Jamal you need to watch Fulham More! Anguissa and the superb keeper areola are more important than Lookman. Also Cordova Reid is outscoring and playing him. You’re talking like Lookman has single handedly been winning games. Fulham have won what. 2/3 games, hardly the sign of a team with a talismanic player pulling up trees
Brian Harrison
470 Posted 29/12/2020 at 10:15:52
Everton are absolutely right in demanding to see all the information as to why the game was called off, and why we werent consulted until after City and Premier league officials had decided to call the game off. Surely as soon as City became aware of more positive Covid results they should have notified Everton as well as the Premier league.

The only other game called off because of Covid was Newcastle's game against Villa, but the circumstances were totally different to what happened yesterday. Newcastle had their training ground closed for 4 days prior to the match being played, so the Premier league had to call the game off as Newcastle couldn't train before the game.

This game was called off 4 hours before kick off, not 4 days like the Newcastle game. No figures as to how many new positive cases City had and whether it effected players. I am sure Everton will question all these decisions when the facts are made known. I wonder if this game had been the main event on Sky would it still have been called off 4 hours prior to the game.

Brian Murray
471 Posted 29/12/2020 at 10:20:45
There’s no way as we seen last season with them on brink of the title that the premier league would cancel the competition no matter how many people are losing loved ones. The ex players and tv companies would start screaming again to carry on with all their contracts need to be met. Sadly.
Rob Hooton
472 Posted 29/12/2020 at 10:32:10
I would recommend reading articles in the British Medical Journal and other similar peer reviewed publications by the experts and not getting any COVID related information from Facebook, YouTube or the mainstream media channels - some of the comments here are laughable (not mentioning any names).
Hope both Everton and West Ham have a clean bill of health for our match - they are playing pretty well at the minute so will be a tough match and whenever our team should be ‘fresher’ they seem to be playing in treacle!
Rob Halligan
473 Posted 29/12/2020 at 10:46:52
Brian # 470. Reports say they had a maximum of five players tested positive. We already know Walker and Jesus were two of them, who were tested positive, along with four members of staff, last Friday. You can bet your bottom dollar the three players tested positive yesterday were De Bruyne, Aguero, and either Sterling or Mahrez. They had nineteen players still available from their squad of twenty five, so quite easily have had a starting eleven plus at least eight subs.

If Everton do get full disclosure of what city provided to the premier league, and this turns out to be the case, then we should demand severe action against city, and I would go as far as to say we should be awarded the points, or certainly a points deduction for city. As you say, this was called off four hours prior to kick off, so the players involved would have been training on Sunday, blissfully unaware they had the virus. Also, they had nineteen players tested negative, more than enough to play the game.

Ok, we may have lost the game, picked up one of two more injuries, but for me, that is irrelevant (sort of), this is now one of the so called big six clubs possibly threatening the premier league if they don't get their own way. Besides, who the Fuck are man city? About fifteen years or so ago, they were nothing, they get a few quid and now think they can do as they please. We've already seen this season their two year European ban overturned, in the past they've fought, and won a FFP threat by UEFA, and now this.

Something stinks about this and I really hope they have the toughest sanctions taken against them.

Kim Vivian
474 Posted 29/12/2020 at 11:16:09
I am not a conspiracy theorist but Rob's posts are hitting home. At the VERY least the names of the affected players should be in the public domain and in the meantime the PL should be cringing with embarrassment over the lack of transparency. I can understand medical advice against Man City personnel interacting with other clubs if the infection rate at their club is as rife as they are making out and there is no way that the City/Chelsea game can go ahead if there is genuine substance to all this - so we can wait and see.

Personally I am anticipating a temporary suspension - maybe a month - of football and a national lockdown lasting 3 months to get through the winter. We honestly have a bunch o bumblers at the helm in this country and I am now reading (breaking news/headline stories) of countrywide chaos after a bit of snow and cold weather threatened over the next few days.

And Brexit self harming to boot around the corner. Beyond pathetic we are it seems sometimes.

Eddie Dunn
475 Posted 29/12/2020 at 11:16:43
At present we simply don't know the facts. City may have been caught on the hop by this with positive results appearing. The last thing I would want is our players catching it from their's. The point is that if they had been told to play with whoever was available, there would be no guarantee that those players were not harbouring the virus and able to spread it, with negative tests.
Also, I suspect that this City squad would have been able to put out a very strong team regardless and our lads had a ridiculous short turn-around and would have been missing Richarlison and James. Who knows, when the fixture is rearranged, we might have Allan and Digne back and City might be in the middle of Champion's League games.
On the Covid issue, as someone in the West of Wales in tier 4, I find it incredible that Merseyside is in tier 2 and fear that because of this the region will pay the price in a few weeks time.
We saw it here when we had a 2 week "circuit breaker" when England continued with a full month. As soon as our's was over the virus started to spread quickly.
Even here in my very rural area, there are cases scattered everywhere.
I can see the PL being put on ice in a few weeks time.
Ernie Baywood
476 Posted 29/12/2020 at 11:19:17
If you have a few cases then you can have more. I'm sure they did have 14 players not showing COVID positives... but if you think it could be in your squad, or your training ground, or in your staff then you have to take the necessary precautions.

I'm sure the right decision has been reached. It's just that this could easily be abused if we don't find a way to apply the rules consistently.

Danny O’Neill
477 Posted 29/12/2020 at 11:25:28
That's the UK Kim. Any deviation from 9 degrees centigrade, cloudy, a bit of drizzle and a stiff south westerly breeze and we're stumped.

Go into double figures with sun and we declare a heat wave and drout. Hit zero with a light dusting of snow and Heathrow Airport closes!!

Alan McGuffog
478 Posted 29/12/2020 at 11:34:35
John..415. I enjoyed your take on the expertise on display here, vis a vis Covid.
Puts me in mind of a remark attributed to George Burns. " seems a pity that the people most qualified to run the country are otherwise engaged in cutting hair and driving cabs ".
David Hallwood
479 Posted 29/12/2020 at 12:04:12
Our American blue Mike Gaynes talks eminent sense about what's put on death certificates. For example, no one has ever died of AIDS they die of complications brought on by the virus.

And as for the government trying to control the population; pulleeese and WTF in equal measure; because all I can see is packed shops and given Liverpool is in tier 2, a nighttime economy bursting at the seams. Christmas dinner but no mixing of households? GTF it's like the virus never existed with the kids, granny Uncle Bill at al all tucking into the turkey.

The fact that a large % of the population have ignored it, or at least settled on their own reality is why we've got the worst infection/mortality rates.

Final point, spare a thought for the Tom Davies knockers, as the postponement denied them the opportunity to post 'championship at best'-there's always New Years Day gents.

Raymond Fox
480 Posted 29/12/2020 at 12:09:46
I see there are some comments in the thread about my mate Martinez, some in praise of him, some not.
All I will say is he's not done too bad since he left us has he.
Brian Harrison
481 Posted 29/12/2020 at 12:21:57
I agree that if City have an outbreak of Covid in their squad, then it makes sense not to play a game that could end up with more people being infected.
My main argument is why when they got further positive tests back why did they not inform Everton as well as the Premier league, I would have thought just out of common decency it was only right that Everton were told about the problem as soon as City were aware this game might be called off.

But it seems City raised the issue with the Premier league, who also decided that they and City along with medical advice would make the decisions and only inform Everton once City and the Premier league had decided what action to take. I think maybe now with this new variant sweeping through the country does it make any sense to have 20/30 people travelling up and down the country travelling from different tiers and staying in hotels just to play matches. I see Roy Hodgson has also suggested that this needs looking at, I think it will be interesting to see how many more Premier league players catch Covid in the coming week with games every couple of days.

Kevin Molloy
482 Posted 29/12/2020 at 12:23:22
this could get very messy. if we miss out on CL by two points and have a case for saying city should have forfeited the three points I can see this going all the way to court.

now we've got the vaccine there's no way the footy is going to be put into storage. the players will all be given it in the next few weeks on some emergency basis, namely the amount of money they bring into the economy.

Danny Baily
483 Posted 29/12/2020 at 12:46:24
The City postponement is just the tip of the iceberg. Just look at Sunderland and the fixture chaos in League One.

I suspect a break in proceedings is immanent.

Correct decision made yesterday, last thing we want is our players catching this.

Michael Lynch
484 Posted 29/12/2020 at 12:46:34
The premier league seems to be setting a precedent that a club can request a postponement if they suffer a Coronavirus outbreak of more than a handful of staff - whether playing or non playing. Previously the advice was you must fulfill the fixture if you have 14 fit players.

Surely this will lead to dozens of games being called off? Perhaps it would be sensible to call a one month winter break?

Bobby Mallon
485 Posted 29/12/2020 at 13:05:16
We also have to remember that if it was first team players who tested positive then the rest of that bubble have to isolate for 10 to 14 days I can’t remember which one. They would not have anyone to play games. So we need to thank city for their fast reactions
Paul Burns
486 Posted 29/12/2020 at 13:22:40
The main point about all of this is the simple fact the Everton FC were not considered as relevant to be informed about the postponement of a football match we were playing in, in a matter of hours. It is beyond belief and absolute proof of the bias shown to certain clubs.

It also brings into question the impartiality of the (mis)governing Football Association and, therefore, the existence of the most basic tenet of any sport – a level playing field.

About time we had a root-and-branch investigation into just how the game is being run in England before things get really out of hand and certain clubs start picking who and when they're playing when it suits them.

Eddie Dunn
487 Posted 29/12/2020 at 13:35:09
Indeed Bobby, City's priority was to inform the football authorities not Everton FC. Also, who knows if a courtesy call was made to Bill, off the record. The players are probably chatting to each other on Whatsap or something.
Kyle "EE Jordan lad, me n' the boys are knee-deep in Covid mate, the game's gonna be off".
Will Mabon
488 Posted 29/12/2020 at 13:39:39
"Our American blue Mike Gaynes talks eminent sense about what's put on death certificates. For example, no one has ever died of AIDS they die of complications brought on by the virus."

...so the death certificate would reflect that; complications brought about by AIDS.

If the death certificate didn't mention AIDS, than that would not be implicated in the death, as either a direct or underlying cause.

Barry Rathbone
489 Posted 29/12/2020 at 13:41:39
Ray @ 480

When Carlo goes I think an older, wiser Bobby backed with real money would work wonders here but the "never go back" truism holds sway

I think one of the Spanish giants will eventually benefit from his vision and courage.

Thomas Richards
490 Posted 29/12/2020 at 13:46:29
Rob#472

Best to do a bit of research before making statements.

ONS site will give you all the figures you need.

Bobby Mallon
491 Posted 29/12/2020 at 13:47:34
Barry Rathbone 489 cheers but my managerial career is over 😉
Will Mabon
492 Posted 29/12/2020 at 13:48:13
Bobby, it was already known and reported that two City first team players had tested positive 24-48 hours earlier (roughly), and nothing was implied about the game being in peril - not 'til four hours before scheduled kick off.

If the procedure is as you say, why would this be the case? Something is obviously not right, and we need the full picture.

Will Mabon
493 Posted 29/12/2020 at 13:50:13
Bobby 491 :)

Go on - you know you want it.

Jamie Crowley
494 Posted 29/12/2020 at 13:50:59
I'm concerned city wanted this game postponed because it's probably their better players who have tested positive, the likes of De Bruyne and Aguero for example.

That ^^

First thing I thought of to be honest. Glad someone else had the balls to come out and say it. Thank you Rob.

Brian Murray
495 Posted 29/12/2020 at 13:51:00
Maybe the courtesy call was sent to hills infamous temperamental fax machine !
Patrick McFarlane
496 Posted 29/12/2020 at 13:52:21
I can't agree that it was City's priority to inform the authorities and not consult with Everton FC, that may have been correct had the game been scheduled for the Etihad. If there had been informal contact between City and Everton, Everton FC are going to look pretty silly given the strength of its statements in reacting to the news.

Just imagine if City had been scheduled to play at Anfield, the reaction by that club and its fans would have been very different so too the media coverage of the event.

I think everybody is in agreement that a sensible decision was reached, but it's the process employed by City and the Premier League in keeping Everton out of the loop which is grating to many Evertonians.

Jamie Crowley
497 Posted 29/12/2020 at 13:58:17
Anecdotal personal story - my wife had CV19. I slept next to her every single night. I was tested three times while my wife had it, all negative, and I didn't distance at all from her. In fact, I hugged her more, and she'd get mad at me saying, "You're going to get it." I ignored her.

My 5 sons were all home. They all tested at least twice and were negative.

None of us ever contracted covid, while my wife had it under our roof. She lost her smell, but was basically asymptomatic.

Fickle virus.

Thomas Richards
498 Posted 29/12/2020 at 14:05:41
It is to the vast majority of the worlds population Jamie.
Duncan McDine
499 Posted 29/12/2020 at 14:13:06
What does she normally smell like Jamie? Soz
Jamie Crowley
500 Posted 29/12/2020 at 14:30:58
Duncan -

Flowers. ;0)

Stephen Beattie
501 Posted 29/12/2020 at 14:33:51
Costa. Free agent. DCL partnership?
Mike Corcoran
502 Posted 29/12/2020 at 14:39:33
Meanwhile from the neighbours https://www.empireofthekop.com/2020/12/29/one-rule-for-manchester-city-another-for-everyone-else-opinion/
Will Mabon
503 Posted 29/12/2020 at 14:50:58
Mike, most stunning thing in that article - we were referred to as "High-flying" Everton!
Thomas Richards
504 Posted 29/12/2020 at 15:02:49
Mike # 502

Typical of the club Mike.

Did you play amateur football mate?

Mike Gaynes
505 Posted 29/12/2020 at 15:10:34
Raymond #480, it's because he no longer has to manage a club. He just has to coach one of the most talented teams in the world, keeping everybody happy and positive, which is something he's very good at.

Rob #473, Sports Illustrated confirms Ederson as one of the three new ones. Easily replaced by the brilliant young Yank Zack Steffen. Now I do respect the conspiracy bent you and Jamie snapped towards when this news came out, but I'm not buying in for this reason: Assuming players aren't tested every day, City's positives on Friday and Monday means they could have a much, much wider problem... thus the squad-wide testing being conducted today, with results to be announced tomorrow. I certainly applaud Everton for demanding full disclosure, but I remain pleased that no Everton players were exposed to potentially infected Mancs.

Question: Do UK medical privacy laws prevent the disclosure of player identifications if they don't want to be revealed?

Will #488: "so the death certificate would reflect that; complications brought about by AIDS." NO, it wouldn't, and it doesn't, which is exactly what I said. Either you genuinely refuse to believe it, or you're just trolling a bit at this point. I think this part of the wider discussion is going nowhere.

Will Mabon
506 Posted 29/12/2020 at 15:24:46
Mike, a death certificate records the cause of death as determined by the recording doctor. This will only be modified should the case be referred for investigation by a coroner.

Are you seriously saying a death can be stated publicly as being directly due to Covid, or with Covid as an underlying cause when not recorded on the death certificate?

Thomas Richards
507 Posted 29/12/2020 at 15:26:35
All very contradictory info and government advice at the moment.
As for death certs.
My neighbours uncle was unfortunately hit by a car recently, he was taken to hospital but died next day sadly.
Covid was on the death certificate.
Chris Williams
508 Posted 29/12/2020 at 15:26:40
Mike,

I think the ID information is covered by Data Protection legislation.

Will Mabon
509 Posted 29/12/2020 at 15:35:30
Thomas, this has happened widely and is well known in the public arena. I cited an example earlier, related directly to me by the man losing his mother-in-law to cancer.

The understanding and validity of this seemingly evades more than one poster as "Anecdotal".

Anthony Jones
510 Posted 29/12/2020 at 15:37:00
Dodged a bullet with this one.

We bemoan our Everton luck but we are the luckiest team to ever be 2nd gone Christmas.

We were due a pummelling with our best players out of action.

Will Mabon
511 Posted 29/12/2020 at 15:39:33
Anthony - we'll never know. Maybe we could have pulled a tricky one out the bag?

Oh, and we're the only team to have won its last four games, not all luck.

I will say, our second place could turn out fifth when games played by all teams is levelled. Either way, happy enough for now...

Thomas Richards
512 Posted 29/12/2020 at 16:11:45
Thanks Will.

The ruling used to count the death toll is "died within 28 days of a positive covid test"
That criteria obviously exaggerates the total amount of actual numbers who die OF covid.

Patrick McFarlane
513 Posted 29/12/2020 at 16:19:17
Taken from Shefield United's Official site:

Sheffield United can confirm the club recorded a number of positive coronavirus tests after the latest round of testing.

Due to medical confidentiality, the club will not be revealing the names of those who have been affected.

The individuals who have tested positive have now entered into a period of self-isolation in accordance with Premier League and Government guidelines.

The Blades have a game versus Burnley tonight at 6pm, seems like they haven't made a request to postpone it. Given the 'medical confidentiality' clause I wouldn't expect Mancheser City to give a list of affected players either.

Paul A Smith
514 Posted 29/12/2020 at 16:26:23
Jamie 497 I have heard and read of loads of families/households where only 1 in 4 or 5 tested positive.

It is strange considering its so contagious and everyone will lose a family member as Boris said.

To go the match you have to pass a test but still social distance with a mask on. Bizarre.

Life needs to go on, I can't see how many clubs will last the distance of covid and most importantly, livelihoods need to return.

Less jobs will ultimately lead to less fans anyway.

Will Mabon
515 Posted 29/12/2020 at 16:32:07
Thomas, yes - further to this, in the UK at least, doctors certifying deaths are, under emergency Covid measures, able at their discretion to cite Covid on death certificates without a test having been performed if covid-like symptoms were present prior to death.

Covid is stated as being part of the Coronavirus subfamily of upper respiratory infections. How symptoms can be definitively attributed to exclude colds, flu and so on without a test is unexplained.

Paul Birmingham
516 Posted 29/12/2020 at 16:32:57
Rob@473, agreed, if and when there’s a disclosure on this matter, it will be interesting and Id like to know whom and when the match officials were notified, and even if they travelled.

I’ll wait for the facts but my hunch is City must have know these players had the virus and stretched the announcement, which was less than 5 hrs before KO.

This could set a review template for conditions when football squad can’t forfill a game.

So if City had two players down, before Chrimbo, and then x3 more, took it within hours, then it must be ravaging their whole squad. Interesting to see whom City put out in their next match.

In Serie A, this season, in a COVID19 impacted match Genoa put out their reserves against Napoli and got beat 6-0. They honoured the game.

Double standards, it seems across UEFA?

Now for the Hammers.

Mike Gaynes
517 Posted 29/12/2020 at 16:33:34
Prem says 18 positive cases now, the highest it has been. However, the total for the season is 131, out of 26,000 tests. That's one-half of one percent. So it seems overall the system is working, even with the lapses at places like City.

Thomas Richards
518 Posted 29/12/2020 at 16:38:40
Very interesting comments re the flu Will.

ONS Statistics show the average flu positive rates for Uk, taken over 5 year period as 15.80 %.

This year it records positive flu figures as 0.10 %

Brent Stephens
519 Posted 29/12/2020 at 16:41:35
Mike #444 (nihao ma) "Family is on the campus of Wuhan University of Science"

Mike, a couple of years ago I had a job on at Wuhan University of Technology for a couple of days (Wuhan Ligong Da Shue?).

Is that the same as Wuhan University of Science?!

Mike Corcoran
520 Posted 29/12/2020 at 16:49:11
Thomas Richards - played 11 a side up to about 21. Nothing serious
Thomas Richards
521 Posted 29/12/2020 at 16:53:04
Thanks Mike,

Played against a lad with same name years ago.

Will Mabon
522 Posted 29/12/2020 at 16:55:32
That pesky ONS.

Odd that since regular 'flu has seemingly disappeared, the vaccine is being pushed this last few weeks, people receiving texts etc.

Brian Harrison
523 Posted 29/12/2020 at 16:57:57
Mike 517

As Patrick says on his post Sheffield Utd have now recorded a number of positive tests yet their game at 6.00pm tonight goes ahead, now it could be non playing members who have tested positive. What worries me the most about the Premier league is that they stated when this season started that no club could postpone a game if they had 14 players fit to play. Now they are saying they will look at things case by case. Which loosely translates as if you are one of the Sky super 6 and want to postpone a game because 4 or 5 members of staff have Covid then that's fine. But for the rest if you have 14 players who havent tested positive then you have to play the game.

I fully understand if clubs don't want to name the members of staff that have tested positive, but surely they should have to say whether its players or staff who have tested positive. As again the rule states 14 fit players and doesnt mention non playing staff, so its important that Everton know if the outbreak at City stopped them having 14 fit players as oppose to 3 or 4 of the coaching staff had Covid.

Mike Gaynes
524 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:01:57
Brent #519, woa hun hao, ni na?

Two different entities. The full name of the university where the family is (sister-in-law is the housing director) is Wuhan University of Science and Technology. The Wuhan University of Technology is a different institution. And to make it even more confusing, both are engineering schools.

Then, just to make your brain melt, there's also the Wuhan Institute of Technology, Wuhan Polytechnic University, Wuhan Polytechnic College and Wuhan Engineering Institute.

Robert Williams
525 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:02:58
DmcD 499. - Cracker mate - really got me going that!!! What does she normally smell like!!! ho ho ho.
Nick Bower
526 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:03:12
Costa now free agent - Do we have enough pesos Mosh?
Tony Hill
527 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:04:18
The media narrative towards ceasing the Premier League and football generally, because of Covid cases, seems to me to be gathering pace. It would fit with the threatened tightening of restrictions on wider society here.

I hope not because, if so, I doubt there could be any easy recovery, or recovery at all, for the game. If we keep locking down there will arrive a point at which most businesses and cultural performances will be untenable.

Thomas Richards
528 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:04:32
Using the judgement of some.

If I test positive on the first day of the month and jump off a tower block on the 27th what would be on the death certificate?

We have to be careful this is not used to suit agendas here.
Not saying City abused the rules but it is undeniably open to such a move.

Will Mabon
529 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:04:42
Nick, he hasn't played much - I think the fire may have died out.
Brent Stephens
530 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:05:57
Hun hao, xie xie.

OK, that's as clear as mud!
Xie xie ni

Mike Corcoran
531 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:11:30
TRichards would have to have been 30 yrs ago!
Mike Gaynes
532 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:11:50
Brian #523, the rules have changed so many times here in the US that it's hard to keep track of them, which is logical in a fast-changing pandemic environment. But there have been no allegations of favoritism to top teams in any sport, largely due to the transparency of the rules changes. There's been plenty of controversy, don't get me wrong, but nobody has accused the Lakers of getting breaks that the Knicks don't get. I'd have to see some evidence of Sky 6 favoritism before I buy in. Ask me tomorrow when the City test results come in.

Regarding disclosure, aren't clubs in fact already disclosing how many players and how many staff are affected? Didn't City announce Friday that it was two players -- whose names came out -- and two staffers? Is that not the protocol, or am I mistaken?

Chris Williams
533 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:12:20
Re ONS figures, the best figures to use re mortality is the excess deaths figure. It includes all deaths, flu, pneumonia, cancer, diabetes, Alzheimer’s, and COVID, all taken from death certificates. The lot.

It compares them with a 5 year average. The excess deaths are those deaths above the average, and tend to follow the pandemic curve.

So any perceived errors on death certificates, which can be either way, including or excluding COVID, or co morbidity are therefore included in the total and compared to the average.

It certainly deals with the debate about flu etc. It includes them both.

The major issue with the ONS stats is the time lag, assuming they’re not inventing or under reporting total deaths.

I can’t speak for US, but Reuter’s provide a fact checking service re claims about the probity of CDC stats I believe.

I promised myself not to involve myself in this again. So that’s my lot.

Robert Williams
534 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:12:42
TR 528. Next door neighbour was killed by a bus as he returned from buying fags across the road. - Cause of Death - smoking related!!
Thomas Richards
535 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:16:18
Mike,

It was :-)

He was a great player by the way.

Mike Gaynes
536 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:16:50
Tony #527, I get that the media is speculating about it, but is there any basis to it? Would your government really shut down the Prem based on a positive test rate of. 5%? Have those 131 positive tests produced any serious illnesses as far as you know?

There's so much COVID news here that I struggle to see the news from the UK.

Mike Corcoran
537 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:21:54
Thomas, if it in Wirral, then it was me and I was 😁 turns up collar and adopts Cantona pose
Thomas Richards
538 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:25:19
Sorry Mike.

Liverpool Sunday League.

Another dream crashed mate

Tony Hill
539 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:26:45
It's difficult to know what our government will do from one day to the next, Mike. I think it likely that the UK will be put under stricter measures in January. With regret, I point you to the Daily Mail which has been an indicator of government policy shifts on Covid, and their football pages today are definitely floating the idea of interrupting the season.

They refer to Rochdale's doctor who thinks we should not continue, there have been a large number of postponements in the lower leagues tonight, we had Roy Hodgson voicing his worries yesterday and, of course, we have the still unresolved position with Man City and their forthcoming fixtures.

I'm with you in thinking that we should remain calm given the Premier League data but I wouldn't rule out football being swept up in the wider trend.

Mike Gaynes
540 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:27:52
Chris #533, here they call it "deaths above normal" and at this point the US has recorded about 20% more overall deaths in 2020 than the normal average for the previous years.

The numbers we're seeing suggest that deaths from COVID are in fact significantly underreported, not exaggerated, in the US. Our official COVID death toll is currently about 340,000, but the overage in total deaths is above 400,000.

These figures are two weeks old:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-death-toll-us.html

Danny O’Neill
541 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:27:57
I wish I hadn't Chris! But I guess it has effected so much of our lives it's hard not to comment or opine on the subject.

Mike, you make a great point about changing situations and decision. Yes, it's inevitable in a crisis, which is why I have particular issues with trying to judge the handling of a crisis in the middle of a crisis.

That's more aimed at the hysterical mainstream media than anyone else.

Winston Churchill's strategic aim was to defeat Nazi Germany. There were dark times in-between (Battle of Britain, the Blitz), tactical battles were lost or failed (Dunkirk, Arnhem), but the war was won.

I think if there is one major criticism of Governments (not just the UK as global patterns are broadly similar), it is a lack of strategic thought and being too worried about daily opinions. Then again, that's been a common theme in politics in recent years and not restricted to Covid.

Now I apologise for turning this into a political rant!

Mike Corcoran
542 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:28:06
I’ve always got me rose tinted memories Tom
Thomas Richards
543 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:33:33
We were all top of the shop in our own eyes.

I myself was a hairs breadth away from Ronaldo skill wise.

Thats Ronaldo Mcdonaldo

Neil Copeland
544 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:34:31
By making a request for the game to be be postponed City haven’t actually broken any rules, all they have done is put the question forward. It is actually the Premier League that have defaulted in their own rules. Therefore, in my opinion, it is very unlikely that City will face any punishment or at least nothing that is serious like a forfeit or points deduction.

To not involve EFC in their decision shows them (Premier League) to be a bunch of self righteous arrogant twats. For City not to involve us demonstrates a complete lack of consideration and respect. I think it would take a large majority of clubs to get together and complain for any sort of meaningful action to be taken.

Perhaps we should threaten legal action relating to costs as a very minimum?

I do hope though, that by asking for disclosure, EFC is finally growing a pair and will at least make the Premier League think twice about screwing us over in the future.

Mike Gaynes
545 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:36:53
Sky Sports just named Jags as one of Blades' COVID-positive players. McBurney another.

Danny #541, you don't have to convince me about the politics of all this. Our Bleach Boy spent eight months telling the country the virus was a hoax and we were completely under control -- even though he knew for a fact it wasn't true.

Danny O’Neill
546 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:38:45
Tier 5 and a month break from football inevitable.
Patrick McFarlane
547 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:39:41
The Daily Mail report:
Fulham's visit to Tottenham on Wednesday could be postponed following a number of positive Covid-19 tests at the Cottagers, according to reports.

According to The Athletic, a number of people associated with Fulham have tested positive for the virus which has placed major doubt on whether the Premier League encounter will go ahead.

The Telegraph are also reporting that there has been an informal meeting of Premier League Chairmen, requesting a two-week break in the near future.

Sorry haven't got more details of that story due to it being behind a paywall.

Thomas Richards
548 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:42:29
Just reported the highest daily total since it all started.

Will Mabon
549 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:43:49
Mike @ 540 - what do they use to compile the death figures?
Mike Gaynes
550 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:44:29
Danny #546, NBC commentators just predicted exactly the same thing.

Will #549, I posted a link where you can read that for yourself. Here it is again. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-death-toll-us.html

Tony Hill
551 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:45:53
My worry would be how the season could be repaired from this juncture of the season if there were a break; I also worry that 2 weeks or 1 month would likely be extended in any event because that's what tends to happen. You then have all sorts of issues with match fitness, transfers etc.

Of course, the summer and next season are already congested.

Patrick McFarlane
552 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:47:03
Neil #544
To be fair to Manchester City, I now understand that they requested guidance from the Premier League on what action to take when they were faced with an increase in positive tests, the fact that the Premier League board met and arrived at a decision before informing Everton could be seen as a practical measure rather than a direct snub towards Everton. However, everybody has had 24 hours to get their stories straight so who knows?
Will Mabon
553 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:49:04
Danny, if you think there's no strategic thinking going on, spend some time on the World Economic Forum website. One of the many places where the intended future of the globe is really being discussed.
Will Mabon
554 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:54:15
I've looked at that, Mike - I mean from what reporting system do they extract the death figures? To quote words from there "...deaths from all causes — not just confirmed cases of coronavirus".
Neil Copeland
555 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:55:05
Patrick #552, thanks for the clarification. I still think that, even if they had already arrived at a decision, they should have involved EFC or been seen as doing so. City could have tipped us off so to speak, perhaps they did but it doesn’t come across that way.
Will Mabon
556 Posted 29/12/2020 at 17:57:55
Tony - buckle up. There's much more to come, and not just in football.
Will Mabon
557 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:02:12
Sheffield Utd & Southampton currently being reported as "Disrupted". Games going ahead - so far.
Danny O’Neill
558 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:03:28
I will take your tip Will and have a visit / read.

Back to football and on Martinez, I said at the time, more a coach than a manager. And with that, I thought he'd have been great with the U23s.

International or on the continent might be where he is best suited even though he spent the vast majority of his professional playing career in the UK.

Mike Gaynes
559 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:04:17
Will, each state reports their database figures to the CDC, our national public health institute. Specifically an agency called the National Vital Statistics System.
Will Mabon
560 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:08:27
Despite his faults and turning into more a PR Consultant, I feel Martinez may have progressed with some financial backing at the time. The decision was obviously quickly made and no time wasted getting him gone. Oh to be behind the scenes...
Will Mabon
561 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:10:52
Mike, right, but I mean do they count the number from the recorded causes of death on death certificates?
Chris Williams
562 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:10:53
If the season grinds to a halt now, expect the pressure to be on to award it to our lovable neighbours again!

If we’d beaten City, we’d be level t the top and in with a shout!

Ban City, the bastards!

Will Mabon
563 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:13:48
Chris, I have little hope of the season resembling anything close to normal. I'd love to be wrong.

Lord knows how/if the winner/table would be resolved come August.

Thomas Richards
564 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:16:38
Chris.

A conundrum for you, me and all blues.
If they stop the season now and all current positions are used as finishing positions would we accept them winning the league if it meant us getting a CL spot?

Chris Williams
565 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:18:30
They’re talking about Tier 5 here now.
You can’t call it Lockdown, like you couldn’t call it No Deal Brexit but the Australian model, and Sellafield was called Windscale or vice versa.

But I believe you still get 2 headed sheep whatever it’s called!

Paul Hewitt
566 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:21:08
If City had been playing at home against say Sheffield United or WBA, I doudt they would have asked the game to be postponed.
Tommy Carter
567 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:22:19
Re Martinez. He won an FA cup with Wigan and obliterated a strong Everton team en route to doing so. At Goodison too. This achievement shouldn’t be overlooked. I know it has been somewhat devalued in recent times but Wigan are easily the biggest underdog to win the trophy in a very long time. Portsmouth managed it in 2008 but there was a lot of money thrown at that team.

However he does have his faults. Generally the positive stuff was really good. I particularly enjoyed his ability to get the best out of young promising players. He elevated Coleman to a completely new level He turned Barkley and Stones into international footballers and Rom into a consistently top class striker.

However the flaws cannot be overlooked. His teams are vulnerable from set pieces. His positivity started to undermine his credibility. Knowledgeable football fans cannot be convinced that Tom Cleverley is world class or Barry, as good as he was, the best English player in 30 years.

He also couldn’t identify just exactly how weak Alcatraz was. It was evident after 1 game that this player would not be anywhere near the level required. But Roberto just kept sticking with him. The Paraguayan wasn’t the only one. But he was possibly the most notable.

The relationship between Roberto and Everton ran its course I feel and he was correctly dismissed.

The first season was undoubtedly a roaring success.

Bobby Mallon
568 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:22:20
Look until Everton actually come out and say they want to know names and wether it was playing staff or say physio or doctor then it will just carry on. The Club need not let this go. The premier league are making it up as we go along to help the top 6.
Chris Williams
569 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:23:24
Interesting question Thomas.

A moral dilemma or a n opportunistic pragmatic decision.

What would Sir John have done?

Mike Gaynes
570 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:24:36
Will, I'm watching the Arsenal/Brighton game and pretending to work, so I'll leave you to research those details yourself. Google is a wonderful thing.
Mike Gaynes
571 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:28:59
Thomas and Chris, interesting hypothetical.

Yes, I'd take that deal in a minute.

Dale Self
572 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:29:31
That depends on what you key in the box there Mike. Good to see you.

One thing that is bothering me and that is this question: Shouldn't declaring who is positive be part of the league protocol on cancelling matches?
Maybe I'm just behind on the disclosure.

Thomas Richards
573 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:29:57
Me too Mike.
Chris Williams
574 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:34:13
I’d agonise over it, then reluctantly allow myself to be persuaded.

Then I’d go to confession and then get pissed celebrating.

Thomas Richards
575 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:37:35
That would help you to absolve your sin Chris.
It would feel like doing a deal with the devil but I would take it.
The powers that be will try their very best to find a way to give them the title anyway.
Bobby Mallon
576 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:41:00
Man City goal keeper has it.
Chris Williams
577 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:41:45
It’s about time the devil released his inner Evertonian. Those lot have had his undivided support since Shankly.
Thomas Richards
578 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:44:55
They most certainly have Chris.
Tempted to think he may have burnt his Liverpool kit though, given their run of injuries.
Hopefully so.
Will Mabon
579 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:45:37
Well when you get a break Mike, maybe you can help out, as I know no other way of reporting or recording causes of death than those entered on death certificates at time of death.

And anyway, I'm busy watching Big Sam's defensive masterclass.

Bill Gall
580 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:51:22
What would anyone think about Everton signing D.Costa for 6 months as backup to D.C,L. He may be 32 but isn't that younger than Cavani with Utd who some supporters wondered why didn't we sign him.
Paul Hewitt
581 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:52:03
Martinez was utter crap. He took Wigan down and should never have got the job. He only finished 5th because of Moyes defensive unit. When he changed it the defence was terrible. Probably the worst manager I can remember.
Patrick McFarlane
582 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:54:37
Thomas #564
I seem to remember that the Premier League had some sort of formula in place, should the season fail to be completed in the normal way.

Now call me a cynic but as I noted on another thread earlier this month, City and United both had games to reschedule from the early part of the season, but as yet they haven't been rescheduled.

I think the Premier League could have easily fitted in these fixtures, particularly as the League Cup wasn't subject to replays, but I honestly think they have deliberately held these fixtures back in order to muddy the outcome of a worst-case scenario.

If the season was to cease at this point, how would the Premier League allocate the finishing positions with 4 out of the top eight sides having played fewer fixtures than the clubs around them?

Chris Williams
583 Posted 29/12/2020 at 18:55:42
Perhaps Thomas but we’ve had a bit of a nightmare in that respect too.

Plus he’s ensured that Pickford is still copping flak and blame for a vicious assault on the arsehole who has ensured that James has never been the same since that match.

I have it on good authority that Virgil is receiving a Papal Knighthood shortly. Prior to his Beatification of course.

He has already been blessed by the Goat Of Mendes!

Thomas Richards
584 Posted 29/12/2020 at 19:06:04
You have shocked me there Chris.
I assumed Vvd would have been sitting waiting for the white smoke.
Danny O’Neill
585 Posted 29/12/2020 at 19:09:48
I'm so listening to Talk Shite in the morning. They were dripping over themselves after Allardyce's seeming "victory" at Anfield at the weekend. They even went as far to declare him the best Premier League manager outside of those who have won it.

Straw clutching of the highest order in their shameless adoration of him. Should be an interesting listen!! As will his post match interview. It generally goes that when Sam wins he laps it up and takes the credit for his tactical prowess. If he loses it is the players fault.

Chris Williams
586 Posted 29/12/2020 at 19:16:15
Black smoke Thomas!
Mike Gaynes
587 Posted 29/12/2020 at 19:16:26
Bill #580, could be a really good, cheap rental idea IF he's fit. He's only played 37 minutes in the past two months.

Danny #585, it's definitely not Fat Sam's fault. He just took over and hasn't yet gotten around to coaching backpasses to the keeper. (Was that funny or what??!!)

Will Mabon
588 Posted 29/12/2020 at 19:18:08
Danny, he was magnanimous in his praise of the players following the Analfield game. Maybe he turned over a new leaf - looks like he may've with his coaching...
Tony McNulty
589 Posted 29/12/2020 at 19:39:06
Interesting thought Bill.

On the upside, he might disrupt one or two defences coming on late. And if DCL gets injured, then he is a proven striker.

On the downside, he might disrupt Everton. What has he got left in the tank? And does Carlo feel he can manage him?

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

590 Posted 29/12/2020 at 19:42:49
Interesting. Given that 2020 has been an unprecedented life experience for anyone who didn't live through either of the World Wars, you would think more people would take a keener interest and learn more about the whats, hows and whys of just how this pandemic impacts on all. Some of the observations in this thread suggest for some that doesn't appear to be the case.

‘I actually think having lockdowns is prolonging this virus.'

The overwhelming evidence suggests the polar opposite. Its virulency and spread diminishes under lockdown, rapidly cranks up again in more relaxed regimes.

‘It is incredibly arrogant of governments, the WHO and anybody else to think humans can "control" something so small and so transmissible.'

The virus doesn't move. WE move IT. Isolation and containment before a proven vaccine was and is a very sensible policy to employ.

‘The only correct approach was herd immunity from the start, but intensive Chinese lockdown propaganda, blind panic and an incompetent government put paid to that sadly.'

Putting aside the innuendo in the words ‘Chinese lockdown propaganda' – it worked for the Chinese. As it did in other countries not just those considered ‘undemocratic and dictatorial'.

Where governments explained in a measured, intelligent, and calm manner what needed to be done and why; appealed to the civic responsibility of its citizens to comply; had a ready-to-go pandemic plan with stockpiled resources in place; used effective tracking and tracing methods and ensured their frontline health workers were protected with the necessary PPE, their case and fatality numbers are far less than the likes of the UK, the US or Brazil. Their citizens complied and, for many such nations, they are already largely back to the old normal, rather than continue to suffer under the new normal.

The 3 countries mentioned are led by incompetents who politicized the pandemic, prioritized the economy over health with their macho approach to staring the virus down, encouraging others to be as blasé as them in their conduct.

You might also want to contrast what was said in the Great Barrington Declaration, who sponsored it, a declaration wide open to all and sundry to sign, as opposed to the John Snow Memo which is far more diligent in checking the veracity of any signatory.

‘You only need to look at the Spanish flu between 1918-1920. Yes it killed millions but that was down to very poor living conditions and poor health care. It eventually died out.'

Two things here:

1) very different times. Today, there is an instant exchange of shared information and cooperation which helps us see similar global patterns. Given that 50 million people died from Spanish flu in two years and less than 2 million currently from Covid-19 is evidence that an awful lot of correct decisions have helped contain the fatal impact of today's virus.

2) Check the demographics on who is most vulnerable and susceptible to Covid-19. Those at the lower end of the economic pyramid.

‘There has been different approaches country by country, region by region but guess what; the graphs and patterns have broadly been the same regardless.'

The second clause is…Simply. Not. True.

Different approaches by nations and states within nations have met with an extreme variance in results between success and gross negligence and failure.

As for the claims that citizens are ‘massive scaredy cats controlled by the media/government', the degree of ‘civil disobedience' by MILLIONS who don't conform to lockdowns, isolation, basic hygiene restraints like mask wearing and sanitizing, or adequately social distancing rather belies that claim.

As for those more concerned with semantics on the cause of death written on death certificates and ONS numbers, look up the definition of ‘comorbidity' and the implications of ‘excess death numbers' in this extraordinary year.

Thank you to the likes of John Keating and Barry Williams in this thread for describing the stark contrast of their international travel experiences through other countries compared to the laxness of the UK; Mike Gaynes for gamefully trying to discuss the cause of death question; Mike Cochrane on insights into UK schools, and David Lynch for his neat lecture story. Given the stories I've shared on TW about my nursing wife here in Brazil, I empathize with you totally, David, when you lament:

‘I'm fed up with the virus and the fucking idiots who ignored the warnings from the offset.'

Ironically, given what Brexit was all about – ‘reclaiming our sovereignty and control of our borders' – the Tory government has failed abysmally with the huge advantage they were given: the UK is an island race. More rigorous border controls when this first broke and the nation would be a lot closer to returning to the ‘old normal' rather than living with the ‘new normal' as continues to be the case.

To close, an animated sliding bar chart to show just how impactful CV-19 has been compared to ‘traditional' illnesses and causes of death.

By default, it shows the World fatality numbers of Covid-19 since its first recorded death against other disease fatalities in the same time scale. Note how rapidly Covid-19 climbs the league table.

In a drop menu which displays ‘World' you can set the graph to any country in the world. It makes for stark viewing in many cases. For the likes of the UK and the US, you can actually see a quite lengthy ‘pause' after the first wave broke, but then it quickly accelerates again with the latest wave, once again overhauling other causes of death.

It doesn't fit the screen well, so you may have to scroll down to hit the pause or replay button if it runs too fast for your liking.

World Life Expectancy Death Rates

Ricky Oak
591 Posted 29/12/2020 at 19:48:44
Antonio back, Benrahma not yet scored for West Ham, gulp. Magic Moyes back, us expected to win due to extra days off. Either way, I reckon we get beat, due again to officials treating our great club with disdain.

Glad we didn't mix with Man City, however, it's anything to upset our rhythm. I refer again to Niasse, Digne, Brighton penalty, and many other incidents that have gone against us, that simply do not happen to other clubs of our standing.

Brian Williams
592 Posted 29/12/2020 at 19:50:35
Ricky, you always predict we'll get beat. Why?
Danny O’Neill
593 Posted 29/12/2020 at 19:54:42
I've had quite a few unprecedented life-changing experiences outside of Covid, thank you, Jay, and didn't live though either World War.

From a personal perspective it has arguably conditioned me to cope better than I see most apparently doing so.

Damn; unprecedented – a word on my never-to-use-again list and I've just said it twice!

Not looking good for West Brom, although the Brighton result keeps them in touch.

Thomas Richards
594 Posted 29/12/2020 at 19:55:35
Jay,

Re comorbidity.

How do you determine which one of the joint illnesses cause death?

Ricky Oak
595 Posted 29/12/2020 at 19:57:03
Just pessimistic, Brian, I suppose.

Since the debacle with the ref that came out of retirement, screwed us out off Europe, then retired again.

I am hoping we win, truly I am. I just cannot shake the hibbie jebbies when we are going well, and something, 'bizarre', happens. No offence intended, bud.

Neil Copeland
596 Posted 29/12/2020 at 19:57:33
Brian #592, ‘cause then “the only way is up”. 😁
Will Mabon
597 Posted 29/12/2020 at 19:58:15
"As for those more concerned with semantics on the cause of death written on death certificates and ONS numbers, look up the definition of ‘comorbidity' and the implications of ‘excess death numbers' in this extraordinary year."

Yeah, yeah, Jay. When you make a point, we're usually treated to the ins & outs of a cat's arse. Someone else, me in this case for the first part of the above – it's "Semantics".

If you read the thread without bias, you will see I didn't raise the subject, I responded. The response was perfectly valid, and I have subsequently seen proved what I already knew in the website of the country-in-question's relevant body. So I don't have to question the original poster any further.

Should you wish to see the semantics, let me know and I'll post the link.

Ricky Oak
598 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:01:27
Hahaha, that as well Neil mate.
Danny O’Neill
599 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:11:08
Like any subject, and this more than most right now, many people are going to have differing views on it. I can accept that and can accept having a different view with supporting evidence presented to me. I don't have issue or take exception to that.

Personally, I don't think anyone on either side of the debate has been particularly out of order myself.

Ricky Oak
600 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:13:27
Also, when you see Richarlison getting smacked out of the game, Gomesh, as he's called, smashed out for months with nerry a mention, then Cavani able to chokeslam our defender...

Well, add this covid crisis, loss of job, and basically living in squalor, no contact with any humans for many months, Brian, my glass is, actually I don't even feel like I got a glass to be half empty.

Apologies again for texting, was just an observation. Happy New Year.

Derek Cowell
601 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:13:56
I have often noticed on here that people who always claim our club have been singled out for unfair treatment by the authorities assert that Niasse was the only player to be suspended for conning a referee by supposedly diving to win a pen.

This, to my mind, is untrue. Shortly after Niasse (who didn't dive in my view), I recall Lanzini of West Ham suffering a similar fate. No-one else since though! Is it still a rule?

Others question why other players haven't been suspended for diving in the box. The dive firstly has to be considered a dive by the ref and VAR retrospectively and secondly has to result in a penalty to show that the ref was conned by the dive. Diving by itself is not enough!

This offence is less likely now since both the ref and VAR needs to be conned with both failing to spot it during the game. I would suspect that no other players will fall foul of this now that we have VAR as the ref has to actually be conned and not just have an attempt made to con him/her.

I think I am correct in this but, if not, I am sure I will be put right.

Jay Woods
602 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:22:42
Personally I believe Jay Wood would be urging everyone to take a biometric ID implant, even if it were officially named "Mark of the Beast", and many posters on here would back him on that.

There can be no balanced discussion about the present Covid-19 crisis without addressing the comments made about the crisis by the Davos clique's leader, Klaus Schwab, in his book, The Great Reset, in which he openly, plainly, in the most unambiguous language, advocates a technocratic, dystopian, crypto Marxist, Chinese-style top-down, tracked, tagged and controlled society... a goal he publicly stated was being made all the more opportune by the present "pandemic", which his good friend and fellow Davos alumnus, Bill Gates, predicted would happen a few months before it actually began.

You all need to stop going along to get along and start thinking about your children and where this is headed. This is, to use their own term for it, the Fourth Industrial Revolution, the fusion of humanity and high tech, for the benefit of the billionaire elites alone and for the impoverishment and enslavement of everyone else. They were hardly going to bring this about by holding a referendum on the issue; it's so much easier to slip it in via the Trojan Horse of this so-called pandemic.

Ricky Oak
603 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:25:29
He didn't dive, as was proven. It's not whether anyone got affected, it's more that it was and has gone on loads, yet the very first time anyone gets punishment, it's our guy.

As for VAR, are you really saying that they are not biased? Mate, I see it loads, when our lads get smashed the commentary have at least for the last three times been laughing. Laughing at Everton players.

I have never seen or heard this with any other teams, although, admittedly, I don't watch every game. It must just be me, it seriously makes me angry.

It just seems like double standards, and unfair, considering, it's 11 v 11 supposedly, yet to my mind it's rarely a fair fight. Again, only my observations.

Michael Kenrick
604 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:37:16
Rick, who is this "Gomesh" of whom you speak?

Just for clarification, like. Can't think who has been smashed out for months with nerry a mention. Guess that's why I don't know who you mean.

Ricky Oak
605 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:39:15
602, that is properly scary, also makes complete sense. Survival of the richest, like a covert Hitler, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean it isn't happening... right?

Feels like a treat now to be able to go for a walk once a day. How did that happen?

I've been screaming about us living in a police state since 10 years ago, getting 27 injuries off them, and no-one giving a flying feck.

Last year, my cousin got beat to death, although they did eventually admit maybe they were a bit heavy-handed. I am a white male living in soft southern Bournemouth.

Tony Hill
606 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:39:34
Is it true that there is no evidence of asymptomatic transmission of the virus? I have also read somewhere that there are significant false positive rates with the testing being used, PCR is it? Does anyone know what the false positive rate is?

Are there not a lot of other serious diseases which are being undiagnosed and untreated while we are locked down and which will presumably result in a significant number of deaths? Has anyone done forecasts on that? If the deaths caused by other diseases are the same as for Covid (or perhaps greater?) then what is the point? I'm also worried about economic damage affecting people's lives and mental health.

These are just questions I have; I certainly have no expertise whatsoever. I must say I find the whole thing very confusing. I am in a vulnerable category myself because of age and medical history so it would be great to have some clarity. We never seem to get it.

Will Mabon
607 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:39:52
Jay @ 602:

It's all out there, and has been for years, decades. None so blind as those who don't wish to see.

Someone I pointed to the World Economic Forum website recently (after she actually raised to me that something feels wrong about the world) did actually go and explore the site. She later stated that a lot of what was said was probably just bouncing ideas around and they wouldn't really do all that in the West. Anyway, "People" wouldn't accept it.

Oh yes, they would – and they will.

Thomas Richards
608 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:40:30
Wasn't he in the Addams Family?
Mike Kennedy
609 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:43:20
So Jay #590, I take it you want a new striker in the January window?

Oh by the way; 'virulence' is how damaging to a host is a virus or disease – not how contagious.

Nick Lacey
610 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:46:25
ADMIN - If I stay on a page for too long, my address bar at the top of the page and my back, forwards and tab buttons at the bottom of the page all disappear, the only thing that I can see is the three little lines in the top left corner. I then have to restart the whole page to get it back.

Also, when I go on a page the text size is 'normal' but then increases in size two-fold.

I am using an Android - Samsung Galaxy S8.

Bill Gall
611 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:51:55
Getting back to football, Man Utd defender hits Wolves attacker with his arm across the head running alongside the Wolves player who goes down clutching his face. Commentator. I don't think it was a foul it was shoulder to shoulder and because the Utd player was taller than the Wolves player he never fouled him.
Will Mabon
612 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:54:10
Tony, search about PCR, and Kary Mullis, who developed it. Use a search engine other than Google as this will simply prioritize mostly simplistic "Fact check" debunking pieces from predictable sources, on first pages.

I'll let you find what you find yourself, but will say, read of its suitability, the way it is being used/cycled in the field, false positives etc. As alluded above, don't give up when you see supposed debunking productions. Read both sides.

Sean Callaghan
613 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:54:44
So Bill Gates is a Marxist, eh Jay? Absolute fucking nonsense.

Such a shame you have such a similar name to the other Jay, because sometimes I get confused and so must remember Jay Wood = sensible and decent guy; Jay Woods = dribbling crackpot.

Will Mabon
614 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:54:50
Bill - just watched that. Are we surprised?
Will Mabon
615 Posted 29/12/2020 at 20:58:11
Sean, I don't see where he called Gates a marxist. Nor where you addressed any of the points made. Why not actually go and read the site for yourself?
Vijay Nair
616 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:01:07
Folks can we please keep the topic of conversation focused on the football, and Everton FC?

The Covid debate, whichever your point of view on the matter, has been done to death (apologies for the unintended and distasteful pun). Let's not have that argument here. Respect each other's point of view and just move on please!

Brian Wilkinson
617 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:03:23
Speaking of strikers, Steve Naismith has banged a hatrick in for Hearts tonight 60 mins into the match.

Fully deserved for one of the best human beings in football.

Liam Mogan
618 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:03:27
Well said vijay
Bill Gall
619 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:04:23
Will --- win or draw, this commentator is determined that Man Utd will be 2nd after this game. Everyone wants someone else than Everton to be 2nd. Funny thing the only time these commentators have anything to say about Everton is when they upset the apple-cart of the established Sky Darlings.
Will Mabon
620 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:04:52
Brian, seconded on Naismith. I still don't know why we let him go.
Jason Wilkinson
621 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:05:21
I'm bored with Covid-19 bullshit. Today's results are going in our favour so far. West Ham, Saints, Man Utd. All dropping points. We must capitalize on Friday. 3 points and a decent goal return. I've backed us to win 3-0 in 11 matches this season. I'm going for 4-0 this time. COYBB
Tony Hill
622 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:05:31
Thanks Will, I'll do my best. I don't see why it's so difficult for these things to be subject to normal evidential analysis and communication, but I think I come from a different time, or it feels that way to me.
Will Mabon
623 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:07:00
Bill, we occasionally may question ourselves as to whether we have a persecution complex. Doesn't take long to be reminded we don't.

It really does get a bit much.

Will Mabon
624 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:08:44
Tony - that's another whole can of worms for another time! If you have time, look into national and global media structure too.
Sean Callaghan
625 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:09:11
Cos it's all nonsense, Will.

I'll be first in line when it comes to critically calling out the exploitative and money- and power-grabbing scumbags who have profiteered from the crisis, and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if this was a man-made virus.

I simply can't make the link between these and what is, in my view, reckless and ridiculous assertions that we should take to the streets to revel in liberties that we've never really had, just to give two fingers to this mysterious cabal that has managed to convince every world leader, across every conceivable political and ideological divide, to play along with the 'myth'.

Sean Callaghan
626 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:13:18
Vijay, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this thread, in large part, directly about Covid? Or was the match postponed cos of the weather?
Brendan McLaughlin
627 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:14:47
Unfortunately Bill #619...

Everyone has already got what they want: Everton aren't 2nd; Leicester are.

Patrick McFarlane
628 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:16:12
Bill #619,

Everton aren't currently 2nd in the table, Leicester City are courtesy of their draw last night. However, I do get your point, and I hope the Sky silliness continues well into 2021 and beyond.

Michael Kenrick
629 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:19:48
Jay @590, great rebuttal, as we would expect, and a cool graphic tool at the end... but it's using real numbers for Covid-19 yet historical averages for the other causes, so takes no account of the much-claimed interference effects that are thought to skew all the other numbers off this year — the year of the ''simulation'.

Hence 'expectancy' — there is no way they could have real data for every country for every day of this year.

Will Mabon
630 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:19:53
Sean, I understand. All I can say is, things are going the way they're going. It's not a myth, it's happening and it's going exponentially. A time will come rather quickly when we all have some decisions to make. The future will be unpalatable if blithely accepted, more so for those younger right now.

Taking to the streets in the traditional sense is well past effective. However, reaction will be required. It's easy to call people when they talk differently. As to Gates and other global players, all I can say to people is, research beyond the normal channels. Mainstream media is not your friend.

Liam Mogan
631 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:22:49
You are spot on, Brendan. The Davos cabal ensured the postponement of last night's game using micro fly-spies to infect Man City with mutated man-made Covid, to ensure the Toffees are not 2nd in the league. This is their true aim, not world domination, enslavement of humans, or the 4th industrial revolution.

Or something else totally, maybe... don't forget – The Matrix was a documentary. Just like Howard's Way and Escape to Victory.

Rob Hooton
633 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:24:01
Jay, 590.

I like a lot of your posts, and not so much others! However, your ability to delve deep into facts and detail are second to none. This is your best non-Everton related post ever in my opinion, the rest is often subjective or objective.

Best wishes to all, stay safe and keep your loved ones safe. Be the person doing the right thing, whatever your beliefs...

John Boswell
634 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:27:01
Ricky @595,

As I recall, Collina had been widely regarded as a tip-top referee at retirement. Also, we qualified for Champions League in 4th position, ahead of our neighbours who had won the competition the previous year. There was no automatic defending of your title so Liverpool, the holders, were not in the competition. A special case was argued and they were installed, giving the Premier League 5 representatives in that year's competition.

The next we know, Collina is out of retirement for one tie only and we get stiffed. Well, that's how it felt to me, and 4 Premier League teams continued in the competition.

I am sure that any details I have wrong will be corrected for me.COYB.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

635 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:30:52
The virus is real.

There is no conspiracy.

No Bill Gates inspired biometric ID implanting.

No 'Mark of the Beast.'

No homo-reptilians walking amongst us.

The 'impoverishment and enslavement' my doppelganger writes of already exists and virtually the whole planet has willingly embraced it. It's called capitalism and consumerism.

THAT - quite openly, quite transparently - is what enriches the few, impoverishes the many (and I'm not speaking strictly in monetary terms here) and depletes the finite resources of the planet on which we are dependent.

Thomas, re: cormorbidity. Yours is a redundant question. Each case is different. A person with no pre-conditions may catch Covid-19, develop life-threatening secondary conditions and die. Similarly, someone vulnerable with a pre-condition but who manages and has lived with their illness for many years catches Covid-19 and also dies prematurely. Chicken or egg? Cart or horse?

Will, earlier @ 423 you said: 'there have been many games played with cause of death, many being classed as "Dying with Covid" rather than of Covid, which is politics at work'

That's you playing semantics when it is easily explained by cormorbidity. The appendage of 'which is politics at work' is quite amusing because the national leaders of the like of the UK, the US and Brazil have directly attempted to manipulate the figures to put a more positive spin on them, to diminish rather than inflate the numbers. Excess death numbers on the ONS site as mentioned also help demonstrate that there are , month on month, excessive deaths in comparison to earlier years.

In the year of 2020, it's quite reasonable to presume that there is one factor in particular that is the driver behind those numbers.

As Jamie Crowley commented in sharing his story, Covid-19 is a 'fickle virus'. Jamie showed admirable love and support to his wife... and got lucky.

Because this virus is extremely democratic. Age, health, ethnicity, location. Yes, all can lower or raise the likelihood of you catching it, but nobody – absolutely NOBODY – is guaranteed total immunity.

Jamie rolled the dice. And won. I'm happy for him.

I know a lass who every time I see her breaks down and cries, repeating 'I killed my mother and father.' They died having contracted Covid-19 from their daughter.

That could have been Jamie's wife lamenting his passing.

Danny O’Neill
636 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:40:45
I don't see anyone denying Covid or calling conspiracy, Jay.

I see many different people giving different views, which as with Everton and football, we are all entitled to. I actually enjoy reading others'

I buried my mother, who didn't see her fifties out, 2 weeks before I left the family behind to deploy to Afghanistan.

The following year, I buried my 63-year-old father.

More recently, we've been thrown another similar challenge.

There are many things to be happy and equally worried about in this world. Being overly focussed on one distracts from others.

That's just how I see it based on my own life experience. I don't expect everyone to do likewise.

Danny O’Neill
637 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:42:58
United v Wolves is a really open and entertaining game incidentally.
Michael Kenrick
638 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:44:44
Danny, isn't Will Mabon calling a conspiracy?

Telling us we can't trust the mainstream media... that surely is a massive red flag?

What's your take on what Will is saying? That's is just an opinin that should be respected?

Liam Mogan
639 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:44:46
'There are men who are so certain of the legitimacy of their own opinions, that the more evidence you provide to challenge them, only serves to entrench their beliefs even further. This type of man usually resides at 3 and a half sides of Anfield football ground.'

Howard Kendall -1984

Bobby Mallon
640 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:47:00
Sean 613. He never said Gates was a Marxist. Also, why is someone a crackpot who has a different view?

To be fair to Jay, that German bloke wants the elite to rule the world. The last time someone from Germany wanted to rule the world, we went to war.

Thomas Richards
641 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:53:49
Jay,

Not at all redundant.
I asked a valid question on tbe back of your post.
You have stated the bleeding obvious as a reply.
That was my point.

The percentage of dying of covid is at 99.7%

The vaccine has an efficacy of anything between 60-85% dependent on which study you choose to hang your hat on.

Im sticking with the 99.7% thank you

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

642 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:54:11
Danny:

'I don't see anyone denying Covid or calling conspiracy.'

It's explicitly stated in this very thread, Danny.

And don't worry about me Danny.

I've had an extremely rich and fulfilling life because I live by Krishnamurti's tenet:

'Dive...and know the depth. Eat...and know the taste.'

Or from Robert Frost's 'The Road Not Taken':

'Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.'

Bill Gall
643 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:54:24
What the F-----ck Utd with less than a minute to go get a deflected goal to go 2nd Commentator going on about quality, even saying with the deflection it has to be Rashfords goal
Michael Kenrick
644 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:54:33
Bobby,

Flat-earthers have a different view. They are proven crackpots. It happens.

Danny O’Neill
645 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:56:35
Personally I can't stand the mainstream media Michael. Their hysterical approach makes me switch to Netflix 5 minutes in the morning.

That doesn't make me think its a conspiracy, just that they don't report news anymore, just convey an agenda.

Again, just my take and view.

Jamie Crowley
646 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:57:27
Wait, the earth’s not flat?
Will Mabon
647 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:57:27
They've done it again - Fergie time.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

648 Posted 29/12/2020 at 21:59:00
Thomas:

'You have stated the bleeding obvious as a reply. That was my point.'

So we're in agreement and your question was redundant then?

That wasn't difficult, was it?

Danny O’Neill
649 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:00:11
Painful for Wolves that.
Will Mabon
650 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:01:41
The anti- "Conspiracy" tag team is a-building I see.

You could always spend some time researching you know. Why not study the World Economic Forum mentioned as a starter. I'd be real interested to hear all your thoughts on the content.

Danny O’Neill
651 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:02:02
I don't worry about you Jay.

We clearly have both had rich and fulfilling lives.

Bobby Mallon
652 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:04:10
Micheal

Flintoff seems a decent enough none crack pot. He’s a flat earther

Chris Williams
653 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:04:50
I see Fat Sam is now calling for a circuit breaker for PL football.

I’m assuming that won’t extend to his wages.

Now there’s a conspiracy theory.

Patrick McFarlane
654 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:12:23
Liam #639
Love that quote and it proves things have gotten a lot worse in the last thirty-odd years, as it's now four sides of the stadium that hold those views plus nearly every other bar worker, cafe server, and Taxi-Driver that Evertonians encounter on a regular basis, not to mention the postman, the milkman, and uncle Tom Cobley and all. :)
Brian Williams
655 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:12:53
Jamie#646.
Jamie, it is for you 'Mericans but for us it's ovoid.
Michael Kenrick
656 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:14:19
Danny, I know what you mean about the scare-mongering and sensationalism. Perhaps this reveals the split between people who 'believe' the mainstream media and people who don't. Is that what helps to explain the now rapidly rising Covid numbers in the UK?

Must be a pretty widespread phenomenon because so many other countries are seeing a rising numbers again despite all the precautions.

I can identify somewhat with Barry Williams and his story at 431, even though I've been very lucky, travelling back and forth to the US in the early months of the year before the 16 March watershed. (Superspreader!) The failure to clamp down early on travel was certainly a huge mistake.

Michael Kenrick
657 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:20:06
Bobby, re Flintoff:

When asked why he's so fascinated by conspiracies, Freddie said: "I think it's anything people tell you, I've always challenged.

"Whether it was coaches when I was playing cricket, I used to challenge them, if I've not seen it or experienced it with my own eyes, it doesn't necessarily have to have happened."

"If I haven't seen it with my own eyes, I don't believe it."

That last line's a giveaway. Crackpot.

Phil Sammon
658 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:20:53
Thomas 641

‘ The percentage of dying of covid is at 99.7%

The vaccine has an efficacy of anything between 60-85% dependent on which study you choose to hang your hat on.

Im sticking with the 99.7% thank you’

You do realise that you don’t forgo your 99.7% chance of surviving if you take the vaccine? The vaccine gives you a very good chance of not getting (or spreading!) the virus at all.

It’s so disappointing that people like you reap the benefits of science and medicine every day but refuse to do your bit when called upon.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

659 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:22:11
'The anti-Conspiracy" tag team is a-building I see. You could always spend some time researching you know.'

Two things Will:

1) there is no clandestine team, conspiring to refute your claims. Just individual posters moved to post contrary opinions to your own.

2) why presume only you research the issues and only your sources (and conclusions) are the definitively legitimate ones?

Brian Williams
660 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:24:43
👏👏👏👏👏👏
Rob Halligan
661 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:31:49
Wow, over 650 posts on a thread about a postponed game. This must be a record!!
Danny O’Neill
662 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:31:57
Possibly Michael. I think the journalism has by and large been irresponsible but then this goes back to my point about politicising the issue. The policiticians have been sucked into worrying about their image on the mainstream media rather than showing leadership and sticking with a plan. Its most likely swear word on here but like it or not Thatcher didn't give 2 hoots about what people thought about her next week. She was thinking where the UK needed to be in 5 years time. Tin helmet at the ready.

I know what you mean on the travel side. Did get to New York in January, but haven't been able to get out to the house this year. Got to see Schalke in February and then a visit to Bucharest before lockdown so feel a bit of a superspreader myself! Managed to squeeze in Germany and Berlin followed by Rome in the interim period. Switzerland and skiing has gone for a ball of chalk!

Will Mabon
663 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:33:36
Jay, read back to when the subject of cause of death and death certificates started, from Mike's post 403 on the topic, and read them all from there, including 434.

You should then see the point of what I'm discussing with Mike. Not semantics. That's one issue. If you can't figure it, come back to me.

The other issue of with/of Covid is equally valid. Recorders do not routinely put "with" on death certificates regarding unrelated issues. The believed cause of death is explicitly noted.

Why do you think they would do that? Additional information not related to the cause of death?

Mark Boullé
664 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:35:37
Jay Wood #590

Since it's a couple of extracts from my post that you've highlighted, I thought I'd respond (especially since there's nothing Everton related to discuss)...

I'm guessing from your response to my suggestion that humans cannot control a virus that you applaud the dictatorial approach taken in places like South Korea (unparalleled levels of surveillance of its own citizens among those countries purporting to be democratic), Victoria in Australia (police forcing entry to the home of a pregnant woman and arresting her for having the temerity to propose an anti-lockdown protest on Facebook) or New Zealand (now entirely cut off from the world, with no prospect of reopening, and where government ministers genuinely contemplated the terrifyingly sinister idea of building quarantine camps) do you? Now, where have we heard about internment camps in world history before...?!

Someday, if there ever were a pandemic of a mortality rate like that of Ebola (c. 50%), I'd support measures like that to "control the virus".

In my view however, they are grossly disproportionate when, as has been pointed out several times, 99.7% of people who get covid DO NOT die from it!! The average age of death of covid victims in the UK is 82.4, older than the average life expectancy here!

For better or worse, we live in a global society now where freedom of movement and assembly are a given (and a fundamental human right) in the West. Covid may be virulent and infectious, but it simply doesn't affect enough people seriously enough to warrant removing those fundamental freedoms from millions of perfectly healthy people. Freedom is hard won and easily lost. I fear if you think that governments worldwide will quickly and readily permit a return to life as it was in February this year, you may be very much misguided...

Personally, I did lockdown with the rest of the nation the first time around, when we weren't sure what this thing was or how to treat it. We know whom it affects now, treatments are much improved and hospitals are no busier than in any other winter overall (89% full on average across the UK, as opposed to 95% this time last year was the stat a week ago). If hospitals are struggling, it's as much because of staff absences from the ludicrously over cautious isolation protocols and the rigmorole of PPE changes, separating covid patients from each other and the rest of the hospital, as it is simple bed occupancy. On that basis, I'm simply no longer prepared to have my life and the things that make it worth living (as opposed to just being alive) disrupted.

On the second point, Lockdown propaganda, I've read articles about how Chinese spam bots flooded the social media accounts first of Italian politicians and public figures extolling the virtues of lockdown. They did the same in Britain a few days later to ensure we followed suit. As we now know from the interview in the Times with that odious tosser Neil Ferguson, who has forecast several respiratory virus death tolls totally wrongly so far yet somehow still gets listened to, he and his fellow SAGE fanatics didn't think an authoritarian Chinese style lockdown would workb in Europe. Then they saw what Italy did and realised that, in his abhorrent words, "we could get away with it" here.

China is pernicious I'm sorry. Whether or not the virus was released from there deliberately - they sure as hell won't tell us - there is no doubt they wanted the rest of the world to hurt the way they were hurting under Trump's economic sanctions. Doesn't it strike you as odd that a Chinese study of 10m people in Wuhan appeared just the other week, supposedly debunking asymptomatic transmission as a concept even though all their earlier studies highlighted it as a threat? At the same time, they have resumed normal life, have forecast 1.8% economic growth this year and don't even have a sodding vaccine??!!

I could go on for pages more but I won't. Suffice it to say, lockdown is a dangerous fallacy which far too many people have accepted unquestioningly, blinded by government and media scaremongering (bad news and negativity is perfect click bait!).

I for one do not want to live in a country where wearing a muzzle becomes the norm, where people leap to one side in fear you might breathe on them, where lockdowns for the regular flu season are a regular occurrence (something I very much fear happening now that they've seen how compliant people are, in many cases softened up by furlough and quite happy to sit at home all day watching Netflix). I'll be emigrating to somewhere too poor to lockdown if that happens, probably Mexico or Brazil. I'd miss going to Everton games or commenting on them live with ToffeeWebbers enormously, but not as much as I'll miss the freedoms I'm not sure we will ever get back having surrendered them so willingly.

John Keating
665 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:37:00
I got a box of Kellogg's Corn Flakes from Tesco.
Got home opened them up and 100% NOT proper Kellogg’s flakes inside
Took them back and they replaced them but the Tesco guy refused to tell me how many other boxes had been returned
No way was I the only victim
Now tell me there’s no con going on by Kelloggs?
Billionaires ripping off the masses
I hate to think what I would have found if I’d bought Frosties!
Andy Crooks
666 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:38:39
Jay @590 magnificent post. You must be appalled at the thought of being mistaken for a poster with a similar name. Spot on Sean at 613.

Paul @581, I agree. Martinez hung on long after he demonstrated his ineptitude. He relegated Wigan through stubborness and arrogance, then jumped ship.

Now coaches the best team in the world. Haven't won anything; won't. Honestly, don't get me started on Martinez.

Paul Hewitt
667 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:38:45
I don't think anyone on here has said Covid isn't real. I do think the death figures are highly manipulated.
Danny O’Neill
668 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:40:37
Sorry Michael, I didn't answer properly.

I think rising numbers in winter were inevitable. I don't personally believe that is any different from from most viruses but I will admit, that's more of a hunch than a well researched statement.

And it's happening across the globe. I know a previous statement got called out earlier, but I do still maintain that by and large (emphasis on by and large), most countries are following a similar pattern. Pattern not to be confused with actual numbers, which can differ for many reasons. But most graphs show the same pattern.

Like anything though, you can break data down to support anyone's point of view. That's the beauty and the ugly side of mass data collection and analysis.

Danny O’Neill
669 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:42:12
You've just taken me back to the 80s and my Sugar Puffs days, John Keating!
Will Mabon
670 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:46:43
Jay @ 659:

1) Just a throwaway quip at the increased mention of "Conspiracy" and a new arrival or two.

2) That line could be levelled at absolutely anyone posting anything about any topic. What makes you so sure your football opinions mean anything - what makes you right?

I suggest people research such as the WEF forum I've mentioned, because I'm aware that very few have, and there is important information on there that is not seen in the general arena. Or am I to ask everyone what they've ever researched before I suggest anything?

Phil Sammon
671 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:56:55
Mark 664,

‘Victoria in Australia (police forcing entry to the home of a pregnant woman and arresting her for having the temerity to propose an anti-lockdown protest on Facebook) or New Zealand (now entirely cut off from the world, with no prospect of reopening, and where government ministers genuinely contemplated the terrifyingly sinister idea of building quarantine camps) do you? Now, where have we heard about internment camps in world history before...?!'

As someone who lives in Victoria, I can tell you that the vast majority of people over here would not want to be anywhere else in the world.

We had a bad outbreak and had to do something. The lockdown here was strict and people suffered for, what most perceived as, the greater good. The pregnant (relevant?!?) woman was rightly arrested. Her actions jeopardised the sacrifices of millions of Melburnians. Her ‘rights' do not supersede the rights of millions wishing to live safely and protect others.

Lastly, you should be ashamed of yourself for relating New Zealand's quarantine program to Nazi Germany. I'm trying desperately not to insult you in a manner that will get me banned from this website... but let's just say I think that it's a dog act to draw parallels between the two.

Mark Boullé
672 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:57:59
Last one from me, just consider this...

Today we are told there were 50k + new "cases". No figure is given as to how many of those are actually positively infectious (much better determined with a second test and / or clinical diagnosis), how many are false positives etc...

Is it a coincidence that Liverpool remains in Tier 2, where mass testing with two tests – not one dodgy PCR test alone was carried out? Didn't they find that fewer than half a percent of those mass tested in Liverpool were actually genuinely positive...?

On the hospital busyness thing, this is the kind of mendacious crap that is being peddled. Sky News ran an interview today with "paramedic Will Broughton" talking about control rooms having to make decisions to turn people away or let them in...

Unfortunately, a quick bit of research reveals that Will Broughton is a senior researcher in paramedic science at a university. He hasn't been an actual paramedic since 2013...!!

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

673 Posted 29/12/2020 at 22:59:08
Will, this:

'What makes you so sure your football opinions mean anything - what makes you right?'

I don't. Never claimed that ONLY my view is the legitimate one. My posts are clearly signalled that I'm offering my opinion with IMO, IMHO, I believe, etc.

I have said explicitly on many occassions I don't presume to represent any body's view other than my own, in my voice, in my words. And that in the grand scheme of things nothing expressed about Everton on TW by anyone makes a ha'peth of difference to how the club is run or how the team, players and manager perform.

It's just venting into the ether.

Dave Lynch
674 Posted 29/12/2020 at 23:05:58
Demographics, statistics, conspiracies or scaremongering.

None of the above matter. What matters is this... Covid-19 is real, it has caused the death of a lot of people by either exacerbating underlying existing conditions or through the virus itself attacking the respiratory system, and it will continue to kill people.

IMO we have missed the boat on containment via isolation, it's out there big time.

Vaccination and the passage of time are our only hope of getting this thing under control because it will never ever go away.

Like all Covid strains, it will rear its ugly little head time after time.

Danny O’Neill
675 Posted 29/12/2020 at 23:08:12
Like any virus ever, Dave, as I understand it.
Mark Boullé
676 Posted 29/12/2020 at 23:09:38
Phil Sammon #671

Ok, not quite the last one from me. I can take an insult don't worry :)

I'm not ashamed though. To be fair I don't know exactly what democratic process was undertaken to allow for the incredibly strict lockdowns in Victoria and New Zealand.

I do know that there sure as hell wasn't one here, despite the fact we're supposed to live in a parliamentary democracy. I'm afraid that, to me as a keen student of history, the way in which the UK Government has completely subverted due democratic process in announcing lockdowns, tiers, restrictions etc by diktat, press conference or badly disguised leaks over all these months is at once unprecedented, unforgivable and terrifying.

Combine that with the way that Ministers and the SAGE lunatics who want us all locked down forevermore keep on blaming the people for "not following the rules" (classic authoritarian dictatorship move) and you have all the hallmarks of an out-of-control regime, drunk on power and knowing it can get away with whatever it likes.

The use of Territorial Support Group policing to forcefully break up anti-lockdown protests in London (not woke and not the accepted government / BBC view) while BLM / Extinction Rebellion (woke and in accordance with mainstream leftist orthodoxy) were allowed to gather in their thousands earlier this year with no police intervention whatsoever tells me we are living in a dictatorship by any other name.

Stuart Sharp
677 Posted 29/12/2020 at 23:20:06
Jesus. I just fell into this thread and I can't get out. Somebody help me. Nurse!
Danny O’Neill
678 Posted 29/12/2020 at 23:20:53
Okay Mark, in the spirit of respecting everyone's views, I do see your point, although I wouldn't go as far as agreeing with you.

We are in a crisis, so the Government does have to apply levers to manage the crisis. My previous point is that I don't believe they've been strong enough in their conviction or strategic outlook and are being swayed by the popular media. We are void of leadership, but are not alone in that globally (in the main).

But I understand your sentiment. The UK has always been policed and governed by consent. The Government governs, it doesn't rule. That is dictatorship. We are more used to being given advice and guidance and making our own decisions on what is right and wrong. If we break that guidance (the law) and are caught, we get rightfully punished. But it is adherence to guidance and by consent, not being dictated to, so I understand why many are uncomfortable with that.

Southern European countries and France included are much more comfortable with it as they are police states. Spain was a military dictatorship until 1981, whilst Italy and France still effectively have Military Police patrolling their streets. It's much easier and less divisive for them to apply that kind of control than for us.

Danny O’Neill
679 Posted 29/12/2020 at 23:23:12
Oh, it's been great, Stuart!!
Will Mabon
680 Posted 29/12/2020 at 23:23:43
"I don't. Never claimed that ONLY my view is the legitimate one. "

Ditto for me, Jay. All I've ever said, a time or two, is that people should research deeper and not rely on mainstream media, which is presenting an increasingly narrow, controlled fayre.

Researching widely and deeply also applies in the internet too; everywhere. I say this generally as I know that the majority don't, in the areas in question. I have not directly levelled at anyone individually that they haven't researched enough.

As last post - I cannot enquire as to everyone's learning before posting.

Danny O’Neill
681 Posted 29/12/2020 at 23:24:27
Watching Match of the Day. Scratched record, but people really touted Chris Wilder as a potential Everton Manager?
Will Mabon
682 Posted 29/12/2020 at 23:35:21
Mark @ 676:

Some valid, and true, points.

A funny old game, this controlling of people. The majority of people will openly criticize and accuse government for historical and current proven incompetence, mistakes, lack of action, dubious links, lies, expense fiddling... and then dutifully obey their instructions while castigating others that question it all.

Lloyd Brodrick
683 Posted 29/12/2020 at 23:40:03
Flat earth society? Don’t they class themselves as a ‘global’ organisation?
Kevin Molloy
684 Posted 29/12/2020 at 23:41:13
I'm inclined to agree with Mark @676. It's the total opposition to discussing the different options on the table which I find particularly disturbing, together with the manipulative way the info is being presented.

The real kicker is, not only have we not looked at the bill yet, we've not even asked for it. And it's going to make Brexit look like a tea party.

And, in the long-term, a much greater role for the state in all our lives, so that incompetents like Hancock and idealogues like Corbyn will have real influence over how we live.

Liam Mogan
685 Posted 29/12/2020 at 23:42:37
Danny @681 – yes! and come the next setback/bad result, some other fly-by-night (Dean Smith?) will be lauded on here as the man we should have had instead of nigh-on 25-year serial-winner Ancelotti.
Si Cooper
686 Posted 29/12/2020 at 23:43:31
Tony Hill (606) - a group of 4 on my shift (but different department) a couple of weeks ago went down sick in a couple of days and tested positive. The person who infected them was a colleague from the time they'd been in before (ie, 4-8 days) who had no symptoms but was tested and found to be positive because his wife (a NHS worker) tested positive in her routine screening.

I thought the ability of asymptomatic infected to infect others was unchallenged and one of the things that makes this virus more of a problem than the ones we normally have to deal with.

PCR (polymerase chain reaction) is a decades old technology that is all about multiplying the amount of genetic material found in a sample to a level that can then be easily analysed. The difficulty is (has always been) how to selectively multiply only the genetic material from the particular organism you are testing for. Generally you need as few cross-contaminants as possible when collecting the initial sample, which is not actually that easy.

Are you only concerned with false positives? False negatives are more of a problem if you are trying to locate and contain the virus; an amount of false positives will not normally bother anyone other than those who are bothered about ‘scare-mongering' or ‘hyping' this virus up.

What to you think would be a ‘significant' amount of false positives?

Si Cooper
687 Posted 29/12/2020 at 23:56:40
Mark (676), it seems that you don't understand what 'democratic' means in practicality.

It simply doesn't mean everybody gets to vote on everything all of the time, which seems to have your back-up when it's something you don't really believe in. Well, tough titty mate. Most of the time, you simply do not have that level of choice and are simply expected to follow whatever legislation, rules or guidance those who have been elected to office determine are suitable.

Extraordinary times require extraordinary measures. We (and the Antipodeans) have not been subject to anything like martial law.

Dale Self
688 Posted 29/12/2020 at 00:05:39
I hear you, Phil @671 but, with this many posts, Godwin's Law was due to kick in at any time. The inconsistent concern over authoritarian moves is a charmer for sure.
Jamie Crowley
689 Posted 30/12/2020 at 00:44:23
This whole Covid-19 thing comes down to your opinion / tolerance of what level you believe government should be involved in your life.

This is why it becomes so political.

I'm one of those [reasonable] terrible right-wing "freaks". I don't think the government, no matter what is going on, pandemic or not, should be able to restrict the movement of its citizens, allow or disallow commerce, etc. So for me, personally, I go apeshit nuts at lockdowns, because I don't believe the government, in a free society, should be allowed to lock down its citizens. Period. Frankly, it scares the hell out of me.

That does not make me a self-centered ass of a human being either, which is the aspersion cast at anyone who doesn't favor lockdowns.

Perhaps I've said too much? Anyone want a hug?


Sean Callaghan
690 Posted 30/12/2020 at 00:47:08
I get what you're saying, Will, and contrary to the way I came across earlier, I do respect at least part of what you're saying. The world is definitely corrupt and the pandemic has lined the pockets of many (you only need to look at some of the dodgy procurement decisions made by HMG).

And of course the media are manipulating us to serve their interests.

The problem is that this is nothing new, of course, and there didn't need to be a killer disease sweeping the globe to bring this about. The elites getting richer and more powerful would have been doing so, Covid or not.

Where ever and however Covid originated it is real and killing people... what you might call blind compliance is, for me, basic compassion.

Barry Williams
691 Posted 30/12/2020 at 00:47:40
Jamie Crowley - 689

WW2 Blackout? Fair?

Jamie Crowley
692 Posted 30/12/2020 at 00:57:56
Barry -

I have to think about that one. That's a very good point.

I think what's going to happen is we'll then take the next logical step and say, "If you support the common well-being and safety of the populace with Blackout measures, why wouldn't you support the well-being and safety of the populace with Covid-19 measures?"

I don't think it's that simple, and the comparison is more apples and bananas, not apples and apples.

Barry Williams
693 Posted 30/12/2020 at 01:34:29
Jamie Crowley - #692

Hi Jamie, I wasn't being facetious mate, just making a point. I have maybe a slightly different take on all of this, have a read of my post at #431 to see why. It is a bit long, but shows you where I am coming from and will save me typing things out again and repeating myself!

I hate politicians, I have zero faith in them, especially nowadays, and especially the British ones. They are not massively qualified in their fields. For example, when have we ever had a multi-lingual Foreign Secretary!?

I think both people and Governments are to blame.

Back in 1940 or so, a much poorer Britain, with a much poorer infra-structure and a much poorer communication system, no internet etc, managed to not only evacuate a large number of people, but also distribute gas masks to its entire population – gas masks of several specifications may I add.

This government couldn't even arrange cheap masks for everyone, or proper PPE for those in the NHS. I m not getting my info. from the news or Facebook here, but from people who's partners work in the NHS and friends connected to the NHS. So I massively blame the government for not reacting or making a visual deterrent/ reminder to everyone - such as having the T.A. out in the streets testing people, or delivering to the needy, postmen with PPE on, the ceasing of junk mail etc.

In South Korea, they had mobile testing stations in the street and masks were distributed at train stations.

I also blame people because, despite lots of contradictory evidence presented to us, this evidence generally showed that there was a potentially deadly virus out there, a virus that was possibly very easy to transmit person to person. Yet, people thought a pint with their mates was that important that they'd put their nearest and dearest at risk.

Just repeating a little from my earlier post. I have hardly been out since getting back to the UK, particularly since the beginning of March. I went out to help fix my mum's elderly friend's car, pick up some undelivered medication for my parents, but besides my bike rides – that I have with a mask on – that's it. I have seen my brother once in this after he and his family all get tested negative, none of my mates, who with me – have mostly had their 50th birthdays in this time – why? Because I am at home with people who are a lot more vulnerable than me.

Just for the record – I ain't no namby pamby stay at home – I have lived in loads of places, like Wuhan, Japan, Azerbaijan, Vietnam, Bahrain etc, I am also an ex-unlicensed fighter, so not a shrinking stay-at-home violet.

But I have stayed at home for those closest to me, as have they. Regardless of the evidence that the virus isn't as bad as we think, or more serious than we think.

Also, I have lost a tonne of money in this time, as I cannot go back to work abroad as the Government and the people of Britain have created a situation in which we cannot travel!

Right! Sorry about the rant! But there you go!

Man Utd are spawny. choose you label!

Barry Williams
695 Posted 30/12/2020 at 01:52:04
Sean Callaghan - 690

Winston Churchill said - 'never waste a good crisis'.

Still pertinent today!

Derek Thomas
696 Posted 30/12/2020 at 01:52:44
Jamie@ 689; you have a fair point but only up to a point. Now that 2nd point is in the eye of the beholder...and thus becomes a movable feast
(In a similar way of the free speech argument...yes you can say what you like but not to the extent of endangering others.)

*goes out on limb* I think you might put up with Government fixing that moveable feast for a short time...in exceptional circumstances, but serious doubt that they would ever let it 'float' again when its all died down.

Something, something...preserve our freedom, by removing some of those freedoms...something, something.


Nicholas Howard
697 Posted 30/12/2020 at 02:14:38
Amazing — at least 200+ Covid-19 related posts...

Anyway, I await patiently for Everton vs West Ham game.

Best New Year wishes for all Evertonians

COYB

Laurie Hartley
698 Posted 30/12/2020 at 05:44:54
Interesting discussion. IMO Covid is real and it has to be dealt with but we should not stop looking at everything else that is going on in the world.

Michael 629 - regarding graphics here are a three more:

Covid deaths 2020
Terrible statistic but not as terrible as this one:
Deaths from Starvation
or in my opinion this one
Deaths from abortion

On the last one - I am glad it wasn't as prevalent just after I was a twinkle in my wonderful mother and father's eyes. How about you?

Regarding the World Economic Forum & Davos

"It is difficult for the common good to prevail against the intense concentration of those who have a special interest, especially if the decisions are made behind locked doors". - Jimmy Carter

I wouldn't trust that unholy alliance as far as I could throw them.

Danny O’Neill
699 Posted 30/12/2020 at 07:03:58
Jamie, Barry, interestingly you both make similar views from slightly different angles.

I too am not one for central Government dictating life to the degree we expect them to give me specific instructions on how I live my daily life and give me directions to my local park (otherwise "I'm confused"). That's a dangerous place to be, in my opinion.

Back to my belief that government set's strategy and guidance. Its departments implement and the people follow because the majority understand. "Aunty" BBC and Sky News publicising 200 students dancing in the street after a night on the lash to generate outrage doesn't make my blood boil. Young, frustrated people, and I was young and stupid once. Nothing to see there and it doesn't represent the majority in a country of 67 million.

I hate lockdown and restrictions. Whilst not being a denier or non-believer, I am less fearful than others as I think there are many other things to worry about. But I accept the situation, understand the need to preserve the health service capacity and have done what is asked of me. I don't need some supermarket worker standing there with new found police-like authority telling me to wash my hands, wear a mask, point directions and maintain distance. I can do that myself thank you.

Chris Williams
700 Posted 30/12/2020 at 07:14:05
Oxford Astra Zeneca vaccine approved by regulator for use in UK.

Just announced.

Thomas Richards
701 Posted 30/12/2020 at 07:44:07
Jay, #648

Can you leave the pompous attitude out of your posts to me please.
Helps neither of us, especially you.

If a relatively healthy man contracts Covid but is hit by a car on his way home from the testing centre and dies, what should be on the death certificate?

Chicken and egg?

Thomas Richards
702 Posted 30/12/2020 at 07:46:49
Phil Sammon #658

Yes thanks, I have taken that into account when I made my own personal decision.

Steve Brown
703 Posted 30/12/2020 at 08:04:56
Singapore - mandatory masks outdoors and indoors without exception, mass testing capability, effective track and trace system, Safe Entry QR app mandatory to enter buildings, maximum group size increased on Monday from 5 pax to 8 pax.

For travellers, compulsory PCR tests 72 hours before arriving in the country, 14 days quarantine in a hotel and additional PCR test before being allowed to leave. Strict quotas on the number of visitors permitted per day to enter the country.

Complete government control and massive fines and/or imprisonment for failure to follow rules. Total deaths from Covid = 29, number of cases in the community today = 1. Not forgetting that all UK visitors are banned.

People have accepted government control as necessary due to the national health emergency and risk to life. As a result, this country is almost back to normal life.

And the UK is a complete shit show, with 50k cases and hundreds of deaths per day. But hey, cry freedom!

Dan Nulty
704 Posted 30/12/2020 at 08:05:15
Ugh. Can we close the comments on this thread. Some stupid, naive, crackpot, condescending, preaching comments on here from all sides and irrelevant to the purpose of this website.

Thomas Richards
705 Posted 30/12/2020 at 08:07:40
Picture is a lot clearer after reading this:

How effective is the Oxford vaccine?
There are three figures doing the rounds - 62%, 70% and 90%.

The first analysis of the trial data showed 70% of people were protected from developing Covid-19 and nobody developed severe disease or needed hospital treatment.

The figure was just 62% when people were given two full doses of the jab and 90% when they were first given a half dose and then a full one.

Hugh Jenkins
706 Posted 30/12/2020 at 08:09:20
Danny (699) -"I don't need some supermarket worker standing there with new found police-like authority telling me to wash my hands, wear a mask, point directions and maintain distance. I can do that myself thank you."

You can – yes – but many others can't.

I cast my mind back 50 years to when I was first appointed as one of Her Majesty's Inspectors of Taxes.

I had been brought up in a neighbourhood and with a peer group where everyone I met and interacted with was of a certain minimal standard of intelligence.

When I started work, after leaving university, it came as a great shock to me to realise that not everyone was operating on the same educational, and intellectual level as me.

And, believe me, it was a shock, when I began to realise that many of the people I then met in my professional capacity were hard-pressed to read and write their names correctly and would believe anything that anyone "in authority" told them was correct or true.

That was frightening.

Moreover, 50 years on, I don't believe the proportions have changed significantly between the better educated and the not-so-well educated.

Hence the need for those in the second group, to receive clear and explicit instructions as to what needs to be done in any given set of circumstances.

Mark Boullé
707 Posted 30/12/2020 at 08:13:50
Barry Williams #691

You put your arguments very eloquently and make some interesting points.

I don't think the comparison with the WWII blackout is helpful though. That happened because there was a nightly risk to life and limb of every single person living in Britain.

Covid presents, at worst, a risk to life for 0.3% of the population... Not quite the same level of threat!

Chris Williams
708 Posted 30/12/2020 at 08:28:59
Thomas,

I think it had to have more trials because of the confusion, which delayed its approval. I've not seen any update as to its effectiveness as yet. Hopefully some clarification will emerge, as it's only recently broken as a story.

It's easier to store in a normal fridge, so more places, like GPs and pharmacies, will be able to administer it.

For example, in our part of the Wirral, only Clatterbridge has the necessary facilities to administer the first vaccine, so everyone has to go there, currently.

Thomas Richards
709 Posted 30/12/2020 at 08:33:47
Chris.

The clip I posted was copied and pasted from todays BBC webpage

Chris Williams
710 Posted 30/12/2020 at 08:38:52
I’ve read the article Thomas, but didn’t see the copy and paste.

I think some clarification still needed though. That will come when the ministers stop hogging the spotlight, and let the grown ups get involved.

Thomas Richards
711 Posted 30/12/2020 at 08:41:41
I agree Chris, a lot more clarification needed.
What are your thoughts on people being vaccinated before that clarification?
Danny O’Neill
712 Posted 30/12/2020 at 08:48:15
You're not wrong Hugh. I guess I just find it frustrating being spoken to like an uneducated child.

Massively generalising and stereotyping now, but what has really alarmed me throughout is peoples inability to follow simple instructions and claim "confused". Wear a mask yet clamber over someone invading personal space let alone social distancing rules to get to a packet of pasta. Inability to follow clearly marked one way systems, literally illuminated with bright orange arrows.

One thing that has also struck me, is the state of health across the nation. A snap shot maybe and perhaps as I take more notice of people in the street now, but in general we seem to be a really unhealthy nation.

No disrespect to anyone or our American ToffeeWebbers but several years ago when reports suggested the UK was fast catching the US up in terms of obesity, I can visibly see it. Back to my somewhat cheap shot very much earlier in this thread. I can't go to a gym where I live, but I can have as many double Big Macs as I want. We talk a lot about health and the importance of it. Staying fit and HEALTHy is an important aspect of that in our ability to combat most forms of illness should we be unfortunate enough to be struck down with them.

Derek Taylor
713 Posted 30/12/2020 at 08:50:33
Barry@693. If 'politics' was scrapped how would you see us governed. Put a George Blake in charge ? Sure would quell all dissenters, including those on here !
Chris Williams
714 Posted 30/12/2020 at 08:51:01
There’s a useful Q&A on the Guardian online, which helps a bit.

I think people will make their own minds up, and also about which vaccine I guess. My own view is that it has been authorised as safe and suitable, after extended trials, so, as somebody who is officially vulnerable and enfeebled, I’ll have the vaccine when my turn comes.

I think to some degree that they will still be gathering data even as they administer the vaccine(s), so that needs some clarification too.

There seems to have been a change in tactics too, whereby the first vaccine was given twice to the same people within 21 days, they are now looking to vaccinate as many people as possible once now, with the second one coming 3 months later.

This is being rolled out from next Monday.

Tommy Carter
715 Posted 30/12/2020 at 09:43:14
Thought I’d ended up on the wrong website for a moment. All important issues being discussed but not for ToffeeWeb surely?

I come on here as part of my hobby, escapism...interest in football.

Back to Everton. What should we do with the January transfer window? Clearly we need one or two players. But do we supplement the squad with potential talent or do we go all out with 2 or 3 who could come in and be ready for a place in the starting line up?

Personally I think we should weigh up a loan deal for Eriksen and I would not at all be against a 1 year deal for Diego Costa.

Draxler is out of contract in the summer as is Milik who would both no doubt improve our squad.

The big one for me would be for Ancelotti to try for a deal for Donnarumma who is out of contract at Milan. This could be a statement signing of the highest order.

The Italian market is one of hoped Carlo would take advantage of. I’ve championed for a long time the signing of Berardi and Belotti. Whilst now I think the Belotti ship has sailed, Berardi is the kind of deep lying forward who is a rare commodity in the modern game. In a world of Adama Traore pace, power, directness (and 1 goal in 2020) a brain on a football field is so much more effective. Berardi would give us that, but offer more physicality than James.

Tony Waring
716 Posted 30/12/2020 at 09:45:57
I agree with you Laurie (698). Worldwide there are about 50,000 abortions DAILY. Last year worldwide there were 49 million. And we don't need a vaccine to stop it ! This really is not the place to discuss the killing of the unborn but I am glad you raised it. Hopefully folks will think about it in their own time.
Chris Williams
717 Posted 30/12/2020 at 09:51:36
It will be interesting to see how Brexit will change the rules for transfers to and from the EU
Brian Williams
718 Posted 30/12/2020 at 09:52:54
Tommy#715.
Hallelujah, football, not just football but Everton.
I agree we could do with a couple to strengthen our position near the top but if Ancelotti is to be believed we'll be getting nobody.
He's said on two separate occasions we won't be bringing anybody in in January.
Now whether this is a bluff or not time will tell.
I do think there may be a couple going the other way though.
Hopefully Bolasie and there's talk (I know I know) of Tosun going to WBA.
If he does maybe young Simms will get the chance to step up, though I myself don't think he's ready just yet.
Brian Williams
719 Posted 30/12/2020 at 09:58:45
Danny#712
Danny, going back to your cheap shot.
You may not be able to go to a gym but I'm pretty sure you could choose to exercise at home, ride a bike, run?
And with regard to the Big Macs. Can you imagine the furore on here alone if McDonalds checked your BMI before allowing you to purchase food?
I do wholeheartedly agree with you over the country's obesity problem though.
I notice myself when I visit the town shopping centre that it now seems to be the minority who are not obese!
Dan Nulty
720 Posted 30/12/2020 at 10:00:48
Come on, can an admin close this please. Even on to abortion and obesity now. Absolutely ridiculous.
Brian Murray
721 Posted 30/12/2020 at 10:03:42
Brian. To me it smacks of letting Brands off the hook if at least two known or unknown gems are not already lined up this window. Strikers and full back positions are stretched so let’s hope Carlo insists on a signing or two because no excuse if two go out the door as well. Failing that Simms needs to be drafted in. Ready or not.
Tommy Carter
722 Posted 30/12/2020 at 10:07:35
@Brian

Interesting. Ancelotti did the same last year and then made it to the summer and got exactly who he wanted. Perhaps the long term approach is the way to do it.

I just fee that this could be an opportunity to offer certain players a very realistic prospect of champions league football. Personally I do think we need 2 or 3 players to get top 4.

In terms of outgoings. Hopefully we will see the back of Bolasie and Cenk. I don’t think either will command any kind of fee which is a shame but the reality of the situation. Who’d pay for them now?

Add to that list Besic, Pennington, Bowler, Broadhead, Connolly, Baningime, Adeniran and we are getting rid of a lot of dross and wages from the squad.

With the return of Branthwaite and Coleman to fitness it’s also time to wave a long overdue goodbye to Jonjoe Kenny who may actually command some kind of fee.

Gbamin - the jury is out. Hopefully there is something there and Carlo can make a player out of him.

Long term and for the summer it’s goodbye to Bernard, Andre Gomes and Gylfi for me. Delph and Pickford can also join that list

Brian Williams
723 Posted 30/12/2020 at 10:12:16
Tommy you're ruthless man!
Robert Tressell
724 Posted 30/12/2020 at 10:12:55
Thanks for breaking the tension, Tommy. Some interesting players identified. Berardi has looked classy for many years and it's strange he's still at Sassuolo. Very talented, but he's a little too much like Rodriguez isn't he? As you say, he's more a technical player than a dynamic player. And at 26 if it didn't work out we could be stuck with a player deteriorating in value until we finally shift him for free / big loss. Quite a risk for someone with no Prem experience. Draxler and Milik are both good quality players but may have huge wage demands and may not even be first team regulars (especially Milik). There's a real danger these sorts of signings just see us accumulating our next lot of deadwood.

Donnarumma is different. It would seem astonishing for Milan, bound for the Champs league again through rebuilding the squad with largely youthful acquisitions, would let their home grown GK go.

Probably the sort of signing we can make once we have a glamorous stadium and regular European football again, but then who knows?

Danny O’Neill
725 Posted 30/12/2020 at 10:14:07
I do Brian, at 49 I'm still smashing about 12 miles a week on running. In honesty always been one for outdoor exercise rather than gyms, but I couldn't help note the irony.

Draxel is an interesting shout Tommy. Another I called out is Marcel Sabitzer at RB Leipzig who was linked with Tottenham this week.

Tougher target as he plays Champions League now, so would require all of Carlo & Brands' persuasive powers for those of us who believe in that.

Robert Tressell
726 Posted 30/12/2020 at 10:20:57
Brian @721. I'd be disappointed if we don't see a Branthwaite type purchase + maybe a couple of even younger players now our youth transfer ban is over.

That's probably more important than 6 months with a fat, out of form and angry Diego Costa.

Brian Williams
727 Posted 30/12/2020 at 10:23:37
Danny I try'n keep fit myself though I actually have a McChicken sandwich every blue moon.
I daren't go too often because it's well known that they put an additive in the food that makes it addictive.
Tony Hill
728 Posted 30/12/2020 at 10:36:07
Si Cooper @686, I was posing questions in my post. There are a couple of interesting articles/leaders, one in the Lancet of 29 September 2020 on false positives and one in the BMJ of 21 December 2020 on asymptomatic transmission.

On false positives, my very limited understanding is that a rate even around 1% can be very distorting if the prevalence of the virus is low. The other type of testing, Lateral Flow, seems to have found very low incidence in Liverpool (and elsewhere) when we had mass testing.

Wasn’t there testing of 10 million people in China which found no asymptomatic transmission? At least, that’s what the BMJ piece cites.

As I have said, I have no science background whatsoever and I would just like there to be as much clarity as possible. I understand, of course, that things are complex and I accept that misleading information is circulating.

Tommy Carter
729 Posted 30/12/2020 at 10:39:33
@ Robert. I think to try and guarantee top 4 we need players who can come in now, start playing straight away and improve the team. Despite being 2nd in the table I think there are some places up for grabs.

The goalkeeper

The right back position

2/3 midfielders

A back up striker / forward

Brian Harrison
730 Posted 30/12/2020 at 10:46:27
Although I am sure Ancelotti would love a couple of additions to his squad in Jan, and a striker being probably his biggest wish but as Paul the Esk outlined on his brilliant post, we are already at a very high level of debt and any incomings will have to be matched by more outgoings. I am not talking about Bolasie or Besic but some first teamer squad players who will bring in some much needed revenue.

Moshiri and no doubt aided by his friend Alisher Usmanov have pumped fortunes into this club, but this level of investment cant be sustained for much longer. Also he still needs to fund a £500 million pound stadium, so I am not expecting big signings in Jan. The summer budget will be largely dependent on where we finish this season, now if somehow we got Champions league football that would give the club a massive injection of much needed money. So I think that Ancelotti and Brands will have to get their heads together and decide who stays and who can be let go, without damaging the squad to much.

Joe McMahon
731 Posted 30/12/2020 at 10:50:55
Agreed Tommy @729, however I feel we will just miss out as no one is arriving in January. If Koeman and Walsh hadn't been appointed and blasted/wasted so much money then I think Carlo would have got us top 4 this season.

Simms needs a run out as DCL cannot work on his own all season surely.

Alexander Murphy
732 Posted 30/12/2020 at 11:13:35
I realise that I'm very late to this debate.

In terms of January dealings, I have issues with Marcel Brands here (hardly original I'd guess).
To whit:
He is not keen upon January dealings
We have players "Not Required Upon Voyage"

In regard of him not being keen etc, that's fine and well in an ideal world, however, football is a system in dynamic inequilibrium. Also, his is not the arse in the frying pan when results are disappointing.
In regard of "The Deadwood Stage", it needs to be leaving town far more frequently and with more occupants, so "Whip Crack Away !" Mr Brands.

The system of a Director of Football + Manager presupposes that the DoF is the long term visionary who's reading of the situation is at least superior if not flawless.
Yet, the manager is to bring about changes and measurable improvements in the real time frame of EPL, weekly.

Wholesale imports in the summer are unsteadying and uncertain.

So clearly an equitable level must be reached and if that means trading in January then that means trading in January.

Personally I think MB has a bloody cheek drawing his monthly salary whilst deciding to only work for a few weeks each summer.

Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
733 Posted 30/12/2020 at 11:16:46
Tommy #722.

Don't worry about seeing the back of Bolasie. His contract expires 30th June and I am pretty confident we will not be offering another one. Same goes for Walcott (who you did not mention) and Besic.
Same also for Pennington, Bowler, Broadhead, Connolly and Adeniran.

There is almost zero chance of any money for any of those players, unless we can sell them in the next 32 days. After that they are all free agents. The real advantage will be about £10m per year off the wage bill.

Question whether we can persuade Sam to buy Tosun again. But I do not think Carlo will want him to leave unless we already have a replacement signed. Many of us think Cenk is useless, but he is probably less useless than many of our U23s - at the moment. Give it 12-24 months and they will be better, but for now he is probably better than them. If DCL got injured and Tosun had been sold we will really be up the creek.

Unfortunately Tosun and Baningime still have 12 months left and unless we can move them we still have to pay them for 12 months. Tosun's problem is the £60,000 a week salary. Who would pay him that much? And if you had a choice of moving job to earn £2m over the next 12 months or stay where you are to earn £3m, what would you do? Don't blame him, we were in the brown stuff. Sam came in. We needed a striker. Right deal at the time - proved wrong in hindsight. But that is our expertise.

Ray Roche
734 Posted 30/12/2020 at 11:27:01
Phil, funny thing with Tosun, he scores quite regularly,I believe, when on International duty. I wonder why he’s never done it for us? Our style? Does he need to play off another forward? Have we failed to provide enough quality balls into the box? DCL has cooled down a bit, scoring wise, since he’s gone back to living off scraps, off the same crap service Tosun and others have had to put up with. Maybe in the right system and decent service he might have improved.
I’ve got my tin hat on in preparation for the “He’s shite” avalanche that will surely follow.
Danny O’Neill
735 Posted 30/12/2020 at 11:31:39
The club surprised me in the summer as there were rumours of not being able to spend too much. Hopefully they can move wisely in the market again with good business.

I think you have a point on Tosun Ray. I'm by no means suggesting he turns into a world beater, but in a team playing a style that suits him, I think he could be an effective striker. He probably fits a 4-4-2 formation.

Ray Roche
736 Posted 30/12/2020 at 11:46:31
Danny, going back to Beattie and Johnson we’ve bought proven goal scorers who have dried up once they don the blue shirt. Only Jelavic bucked that trend, briefly, before he left. Maybe it’s our style, or lack of, that scuppers forwards? I’m sure someone will trawl the internet for stats to disprove my comments but. well, why have we failed with forwards apart from Lukaku who would have benefited from a more creative side, and scored...sorry scuffed even more.
Eddie Dunn
737 Posted 30/12/2020 at 11:55:35
Eddie Dunn
738 Posted 30/12/2020 at 11:55:35
Ray- surely the answer lies in our set-up. He could play up with DCL but we have Richie, Siggy/James to accomodate, and Tosun certainly hasn't got either the pace or aerial ability to play up on his own.
For me he is more of a fox in the box, an Alan Clarke type, right place right time. However to manage this we would need plenty of touches in and around the box, which we rarely get.
If he played for Man City I honestly think he would finish top scorer in the PL.
Danny O’Neill
739 Posted 30/12/2020 at 11:58:26
Apologies for covering old ground from previous threads Ray, but that's a good point on our forwards and why Dominic is now flourishing.

He's being instructed to stay more central and be in the box more. Not chasing corner flags like many of our previous recent strikers have been asked to do or seem to want to do.

Even Jelavic; I too don't have the stats but I remember his first second half season was characterised by what seemed a trademark step back from a defender to buy a yard in the box and then sweep or tap in a low cross.

The following season he descended into chasing flags and was in the channels way too often.

Ray Roche
740 Posted 30/12/2020 at 12:01:46
Eddie, not sure if he’d finish top scorer but he’d do a darn sight better than he is now.
I have always thought that we buy players who don’t necessarily fit our style of play.
I think, as a club and as a fan base, we should look at how we are going to use a player, how he will fit in, before buying him. Siggy, for instance, was exceptional with Swansea but is regarded as a failure here. It’s not his fault in my opinion. Just indicative of how we buy the wrong players to do a specific job.
Robert Tressell
741 Posted 30/12/2020 at 12:06:33
Tommy @ 729, unfortunately Draxler and Milik would absolutely not guarantee us a top 4 finish. They just give us better chance. Milik is a good player - maybe a 10 goal a season man as first choice in the Prem. Draxler is a talent but has been hit and miss, largely due to injury, at PSG. These are really not the sort of players to elevate us to some new level (eg Bruno Fernandes types) which explains the fact that our main rivals aren't sniffing around them particularly and why they'll both soon be free.

Players who really would make a difference, like Sabitzer, will be attracting intense interest from the rich clubs playing in the Champions league. Whilst we could probably afford the fee and the wage in summer, Sabitzer (already a Champions League regular) will have better offers - including from present club Leipzig who are really going places.

We need to look elsewhere.

Brian Murray
742 Posted 30/12/2020 at 12:12:37
Robert. Leipzig gong places hope you mean the next round of the champions league after they dispatch shiesters
Brian Murray
743 Posted 30/12/2020 at 12:26:23
All if and buts but if they passengers like siggy and Gomes continue to play at a near decent level until Allan and James and maybe gbabin ( iffy spelling ) are ready then all we need is a decent back up striker and a pacy bright back in January. Is that too much to ask of brands. This all could really make for an exiting season if he can do what he’s paid to do. Coyb let’s shake these sky darlings up big time.
Tony Everan
744 Posted 30/12/2020 at 12:32:21
January transfer window will come down to whether Tosun leaves on loan or permanent. If he goes to West Brom or Palace then I think we have to act to have cover for DCL, in case of an injury or to give him some respite.

The incoming player will be initially on loan and will have to add something to the squad, possibly by having some real pace as well as goal threat. There must be one or two out there that Mr B and Carlo are keeping tabs on.

Brian Harrison
745 Posted 30/12/2020 at 12:35:24
There was an interesting piece in the Echo about transfers after Jan 1st, obviously we will have left the European Union so signing European players wont be as easy as it was. The article went on to say that seeing Everton have expanded their South American scouting network, we will be ahead of most teams who will be looking as much to South America as they do to Europe in the future.
Thomas Richards
746 Posted 30/12/2020 at 12:39:07
Reading reports that Prem clubs representatives are discussing a two week break.
Darren Hind
747 Posted 30/12/2020 at 12:39:13
Ancelotti is solely responsible for DCL's current dry run.

Duncan Ferguson pointed the way showing how his young pupil could be used to best effect. He sparked of a terrific year for him.
Carlo looked for all the world as if he would continue in the same vein, Her inherited the most promising striker in the game, but has he looked the proverbial gift horse in the mouth ? He's gone back to using him as a pack mule in very much the same way Silva did.

No great harm done if this is short term, especially as these tactics have put several points in the bag, Long term However, it could be disastrous.
You would seriously like to think he had a plan B when he let Kean go out on loan..and that plan B will be revealed in the very near future.

We need another striker

Chris Williams
748 Posted 30/12/2020 at 12:45:06
Yes, Brian,

We’re back in the realm of visas, work permits, limits on U18/U21 signings and eligibility/scoring systems seemingly. And affecting both incoming and outgoing transfers.

One thing for sure, we shouldn’t be waiting for deadline day!

Existing players may have to apply for permits from next season by the look of it.

Robert Tressell
749 Posted 30/12/2020 at 12:48:29
I think you're right, Tony. Tosun, Bolasie and Bernard might leave and free up some wages. Could result in us picking up someone like Thomas Lemar of Athletico (eg someone else's expensive misfit) on loan with an option to buy.

Whilst it's infuriating to see a good chance of success possibly go begging, developing our playing squad is a longer term game. Trying to plug gaps season by season just results in the accumulation of deadwood (which in turn stops us from buying people we really need longer term).

Branthwaite was an excellent buy. Hopefully we'll see one or two like that at least.

Then some really good quality reinforcements in summer.

Thomas Richards
750 Posted 30/12/2020 at 13:02:28
Ancelotti is solely responsible for DCL's current dry run.

SOLELY responsible?
How come?
Carlo didnt kick our creative players at Finch Farm causing them injury did he?
Thereby stopping James, Richo etc from being able to create chances for DCL ?

I agree we need a forward added to squad though.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

751 Posted 30/12/2020 at 13:36:13
Sorry folks, but I'm going to reply to Mark Boullé @ various, so look away now.

Given that a large part of the CV-19 discussion is concerned with how the media presents the issue and which media to access for a more balanced view, your posts Mark make for astonishing reading.

Congratulations on the inflammatory tabloid-like language you use to describe the very effective policies applied in the likes of South Korea, Oz and New Zealand. ‘Dictatorial, unparalleled levels of surveillance and confinement’. Associating a floated idea of temporary quarantine camps to Nazi concentration camps.

Exaggerating much? Bizarrely, you even admit in a later post that ‘don't know exactly what democratic process was undertaken to allow for the incredibly strict lockdowns in Victoria and NZ.’

The citizens in all 3 countries are not ‘sheeples’. In the main they willingly conformed to government proposals for the common good.

You say you are a keen student of history. Perhaps your interest is UK, Euro or North American-centric, because you don’t appear to know much of South Korea history or their culture, given your dismissive comments of them. Look up the SK 1960 Spring Revolution in which students toppled the ruling government. More recently, look up the 2016 Candlelight Revolution that again toppled a sitting President.

I have a far more optimistic view of the independence and resilience of individuals and the collective than you and others, Mark. Even in this extraordinary year, you have many examples of the common man and woman not being passively submissive to their ruling governments as you project.

Look at Belarus.
Look at the BLM movement globally.
Look at Brazil where, after weekend after weekend of rallies of Bolsonaro supporters around the nation’s seat of government, attended by Bozo BR himself, calling for a return of military rule, a suspension of the Supreme Court and a closing of the Upper and Lower House, Brazilians said ‘ENOUGH!. In every major state capital they took to the streets in defence of democracy.

Bolsonaro and his followers backed down.

Look at the HUGE role the Brazilian media played and continues to play in ensuring accurate reporting of CV-19 cases and mortalities after the government stopped issuing them as they were too damaging to their image. The media, then, can be a vehicle for good.

Are there shite, biased media outlets? Absolutely there are.

That’s why it should be the responsibility of each and every one of us to read more broadly. To be better informed. Not to consume only one viewpoint. And most certainly not to base your opinion on social media postings.

In this thread, Will and I are effectively arguing for the same thing. For people to be better informed. He leans towards one slant of such information. I…don’t. There IS good independent information out there. Equally, there is an awful lot of disinformation.

I often apply the rule of Occam’s Razor to these matters. Basically, if there are two explanations for something, the one with the least number of assumptions is usually correct.
That is my take on conspiracy theories touched on in this thread.

As I’ve already stated, it is my belief that there is no need for secret cabals manipulating the world’s citizens. They are out operating in the open. Why concern yourself with Klaus Schwab when you have the most powerful individual in the world, the sitting President of the US, acting as he has in the last month? His entire presidency, in fact.

THAT’s the real and present danger, IMO.

Tommy Carter
752 Posted 30/12/2020 at 14:06:29
@733 Phil and @ Robert also

I don’t think Draxler or Milik would guarantee top 4. I put them up as examples of quality players who are very attainable at present. Eriksen I think is a greater guarantee to come in and instantly improve our team.

However in terms of picking up someone else’s expensive mistake. I get this but there can sometimes be the odd exception where a player finds they are a certain fit for a certain club. Whilst Arteta and Pienaar faltered at other clubs, they excelled for Everton. As did Manuel Fernandes in his initial loan spell in 2007. Van der Vaart at Tottenham as another example. Etc

Let’s face it, Draxler has to do a lot to get into the PSG team and his lack of consistency has meant that he’s found this nearly impossible.

Other players who have contracts dwindling are David Alana and Hakan Calhanoglu.

Barry Williams
753 Posted 30/12/2020 at 14:06:47
Hi Danny Neill (699) - I too hate lockdown restrictions mate, and I have actually imposed them on myself in order to protect others that I am now living with. I used my own experiences of living in China, and calling my friends abroad, to come to my own conclusion that the Govt. here didn't have an igloo what it was doing or the severity of the case. My life usually involves me traveling a lot for my job, and a lot for pleasure - but I have been on virtual self imposed house arrest for almost 10 months, cannot get back to work as UK citizens are banned abroad for the most part and I am earning about a 1/4 of my wage. So, I have issues with how this has been dealt with by local and central government, and people as a whole.

Mark 707 - I certainly wasn't comparing the crisis to WW2, not in any way shape or form. What I was comparing was the lack of organisation shown by those in power in the distribution of complicated equipment in the 1940s by a much less affluent Britain, to the lack of distribution of simple equipment nowadays. As for the blackouts, I used that as an example of when authorities have to impose restrictions for the greater good - I think the rates of infections show that. I base my belief on the rates rising, not by TV stats, but from those living around me.

Derek 713 - No, I never mention scrapping politics in any way shape or form - I don't know how you misconstrued that.

For what it is worth, I very rarely watch or read the news.

Anyway, thanks for reading chaps, I don't pretend to have any answers. The one thing I would ask people is when all this blows over - did you do the best to protect those that live with you and mix with you. Simple. Very difficult for those that have to work, I know or have to go to school etc.

FOOTBALL.

Same team again for West Ham - or is it time to put in Coleman and start being a bit more adventurous. And, what to do with a retuning James - though not available for West Ham?

Thomas Richards
754 Posted 30/12/2020 at 14:13:34
I agree Jay.
People who stand up against issues they don't align with should have the right to voice their
opinions.
So long as they are peaceful and non violent in doing so.

What are your thoughts on the tens of thousands in the UK who have marched and rallied against the lockdowns?

Danny O’Neill
755 Posted 30/12/2020 at 14:16:52
Love the public health warning at the start of the Jay. Made me chuckle!!
Danny O’Neill
756 Posted 30/12/2020 at 14:23:12
I'd be tempted to go more adventurous Barry. Last time out Moyes set up with 5 at the back and 2 defensive midfielders in front of them as well as Mark Noble being his most advanced midfielder.

I listened to a West Ham fan on the radio saying at the weekend saying he would rather be relegated than have Allardyce back. Strong shout and linked to the gushing over Allardyce debate that was going on after Anfield (notice it is missing this morning). It led him into saying that if Moyes wants to treat Brighton at home like Barcelona, he will fall out of favour with the fan base very quickly.

Knowing our luck, Moyes will set up like Barcelona and West will play like them against us on Friday!!!

Robert Williams
757 Posted 30/12/2020 at 14:26:56
JW 751 Thanks for the heads-up. Really appreciate that. Does this mean that you are turning a new leaf and giving advance warnings of your sagas?
Looking forward to your abridged versions in the New Year. Cheers
Ps. Any idea what happened to your mate Ferns?
Si Cooper
758 Posted 30/12/2020 at 14:34:36
Tony Hill (728), I've just read the BMJ article and it certainly doesn't conclude that asymptomatic transmission doesn't exist. It clearly states that ‘they are probably less infectious than people who develop symptoms' (and therefore cough and sneeze, ejecting much more of the virus in their vicinity) and determines that ‘Symptomatic and presymptomatic transmission have a greater role in the spread of SARS-CoV-2 than truly asymptomatic transmission.'

The thrust of the article is that trying to pinpoint asymptomatic infected in the short period of days where they are capable of transmitting the virus is not an efficient use of limited resources especially now that the percentage of actual asymptomatic has been revised down from 80% to 20%. It argues against the sort of testing carried out in Liverpool.

Incidentally, I thought the lateral flow tests had been accused of leading to a significant number of false negatives, which still seems to me to be much more of a practical problem than false positives.

The Chinese study isn't really detailed in the article but the article does cover why confirming truly asymptomatic transmission is such a tricky thing to do, especially now that the population of Wuhan will have adopted multiple hygiene practices that will reduce transmission of any pathogen.

Barry Williams
759 Posted 30/12/2020 at 14:35:38
Danny O'Neill – 756

I think you are right, being at home to a Moyes team that will sit deep, we'll need to get in behind them, and as well as Holgate and Godfrey have played, it is not really their forte, though I have noticed that they do get forward, but tend not to overlap, leaving the wide player no choice but to go inside, thus limiting options.

I'd be tempted to even go 4-4-2, Richarlison more central, though this would mean dropping Sigurdsson, who has been one of our best players recently. Even with a depleted squad, we do have options and a manager willing to mix things up, which makes a nice change.

Re: my last article – sorry about any typos folks – lockdown you know, melts the brain, that plus last night's copious alcohol intake. Just an aside. I ain't had my haircut for 10 months either and I am sort of morphing into Odd-Bod from the Carry-On film Odd Bod and Junior. Not the look I was aspiring to! Yes, lockdown has a lot to answer for!

Barry Williams
760 Posted 30/12/2020 at 14:43:01
Si Cooper 758

'the population of Wuhan will have adopted multiple hygiene practices that will reduce transmission of any pathogen'

Just to add to this, Si, I lived in the sticks in Wuhan for a period of 9 months, and travelled all over China. Hygiene will still be an issue, trust me.

'The lateral flow tests had been accused of leading to a significant number of false negatives.'

I know people who tested negative on this, only to be proved positive not long after, read into that what you will!

Jamie Crowley
761 Posted 30/12/2020 at 14:46:00
Barry -

There's nothing wrong with long-scraggly-hair hungover dude.

Just own it.

Robert Tressell
762 Posted 30/12/2020 at 14:48:58
Barry,

I think your 4-4-2 makes a lot of sense. I'd like to see Richarlison much closer to Calvert-Lewin for this match – where Moyes will hand us the initiative. Godfrey stays as left-back for the time being. But we could put any of Nkounkou, Gordon or Bernard ahead of him on the left flank.

Sigurdsson can come on later.

Chris Williams
763 Posted 30/12/2020 at 14:49:33
Barry,

That would be Carry On Screaming.

Frying Tonight!

Jamie Crowley
764 Posted 30/12/2020 at 14:55:08
The game against West Ham, and I realize I'm starting to say this for every single game and it's just ludicrous, is so important.

There's only nine points separating 11th place and 1st place. That's simply crazy. And it makes every game vitally important. Slip up, and 4 teams could leapfrog you!

I'd not change a single thing with the lineup, especially the back four. I've said this previously, but bring Seamus on as a sub if needed. But any back four not conceding a goal from open play in four consecutive games surely should go untouched?!!

UTFB

Barry Williams
765 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:05:17
Jamie Crowley - 761 - For most of my teen years and until my mid-twenties I had long flowing blond locks that would have put a timotei ad girl to Shame! But alas, not in my 20s now, but if it was okay for Lemmy - it's okay for me!

Chris Williams - 763 - Odd Bod and Junior were characters in it! Cheers! I might watch that today, and have a culture day!

Robert Tressell - 762 - Sigurdsson off the bench could certainly help mix things up depending on how the match is going. In good form and not a bad option to bring on.


Brian Murray
766 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:09:44
In an ideal world, with a fully fit team, it would be great if we could really show the Moyes media lovers and some on here that we are on a different level and give them a good hiding.

Some seem to think we should be grateful to him for steadying the ship. We could hardly have got worse after the Smith and Knox disaster.

His biggest crime was brainwashing a generation of Blues that we are plucky little Everton and there to make up the numbers. Coyb, let's run riot on Friday.

Brian Williams
767 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:19:36
Brian, in an ideal world I'd be in the Top Balcony to watch us batter WHU but that's definitely not happening now. No wonder I didn't get my health questionnaire. 😡

At least I won't now have to queue in the cold for a test tomorrow.

Andy Finigan
768 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:23:24
Liverpool has gone into Tier 3, so no fans for tomorrow's game.

Gutted.

Patrick McFarlane
769 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:30:33
Tier 3 for Merseyside from midnight, and Tier 4 for lots of other areas, so another set of unlucky blues unable to attend on Friday. Spurs game postponed due to Covid. I hope the Magpies win tonight!
Brian Williams
770 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:32:46
I'll go for tier three Patrick. 😉

Good editing that man. 🤣

Don Wright
771 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:34:42
Tier 3, Patrick. Up the Barcodes. Stay safe everyone.
Chris Williams
772 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:36:30
Yes, Tier 3, and pubs shut again. Can’t even get a substantial meal any more!
Jim Bennings
773 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:36:45
It's looking quite likely I think that they will force a month-long break in the Premier League soon due the uprise in cases.

Games are starting to fall thick and fast and I can't see fans attending anymore matches this season at any club.

We are now in Tier 3 for another few weeks, no doubt to be extended or move to Tier 4 in the middle of January. This fuckin vaccine can't come soon enough to help slow this twat of a virus.

Brian Murray
774 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:38:48
At what stage do ordinary people who are getting infected and losing family have a right to enough is enough? Cancel football and all sports, at least out of respect, never mind safety. Or is that once again an ideal world?
Chris Williams
775 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:39:15
Give my regards to Fenella Fielding, Barry.
Martin Nicholls
776 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:41:32
Chris Williams #700 & 708 - firstly, I haven't forgotten our exchange at the very start of this nightmare about drinking establishments here on Wirral and look forward to that drink in the Bow-Legged Beagle that we promised ourselves – maybe your namesake and fellow Wirralian, Brian, will join us in due course! I certainly think today's announcement about the Astrazeneca vaccine will bring that day forward.

Like you, Chris, I'm regarded as being vulnerable (being over 70); however, I am lucky enough to have no underlying health conditions and therefore volunteered for and am currently engaged in the AZ vaccine trial. To answer one of your points, my involvement is scheduled to last for a total of 13 months so will run well into next year depending on what the result of the "unblinding" process is.

In that connection, trial participants remain "blind" until they are offered the vaccine – I'm guessing that for me, this will be sometime in February. I have no greater knowledge of the processes than anyone else but do keep myself up to date with developments some of which are reported to participants by email (doubtless all content is in the public domain, but perhaps not reported fully by national media).

I am fully au fait with the reasons behind the differing reported efficacy rates – my guess (and that's what it is!) is that Pascal Soriot's "winning formula" is full doses with 12-week gap rather than half/full dose at three weeks.

For what it's worth (and I don't know if I had vaccine or placebo), the vaccination process was painless and I had no side effects whatsoever. Hope this reassures some who might have reservations.

Anyway, as others have reminded us, this is a football site so Best Wishes to all Blues everywhere for the future – I for one believe it to be bright in more ways than one! Can't wait to get back inside Goodison and to those away games. COYB.

Barry Williams
777 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:41:56
Chris Williams - 775

There are several ways I could respond to that Chris. However, in the name of good taste I will resist! As the actress said to the Bishop!

Fran Mitchell
778 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:45:38
There won't be any more games after today methinks.
Martin Nicholls
779 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:48:11
Hugh Jenkins @706 – what districts did you serve in?
Brian Williams
780 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:49:08
Count me in, Martin. After all, someone's gotta push your bathchair round the pub! 😳
Chris Williams
781 Posted 30/12/2020 at 15:49:17
Thanks for that, Martin. I'll still look forward to that session in one of the Beagles. Or maybe all 3!

The pubs have been ticking over doing Takeaways for the duration and will continue in Tier 3, for as long as it lasts I guess. Some nifty cash management by John and Andy, keeping things okay.

Barry, I'm extremely grateful for your forbearance!

Mike Gaynes
782 Posted 30/12/2020 at 16:07:46
Jamie #689, what scares me is the number of Americans who are more outraged by government action against a pandemic than they are by the extent of the pandemic itself.

More than a third of a million of our fellow citizens are dead, substantially because of the pathetic LACK of government action. Why doesn't that drive you "apeshit nuts" instead of restaurant restrictions? Our rights include life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They do not include the "right" of commerce. And when the pursuit of commerce infringes on life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, commerce must lose out. That's why steel mills don't kill thousands with air pollution anymore.

Also, I realize it's a common delusion that you live in a free society, but you don't. You live in a society that has rules and laws and controls on your behavior, from freeway speed limits to laws against murder and robbery. You want to live in a free society? Find a commune somewhere. You live in a democracy that requires a certain degree of responsibility, and if people don't want to be responsible, sometimes the government or the law must step in.

Where do you stand on mask requirements? Are they an infringement on your personal freedom? Or does my right to movement in my daily life include the right not to encounter some maskless moron breathing on me in the grocery store?

In my view, government action to restrict certain activities in a pandemic may actually serve to preserve my rights.

Brian Williams
783 Posted 30/12/2020 at 16:11:23
👏👏👏
Chris Williams
784 Posted 30/12/2020 at 16:22:02
Mike,

You’re a thoughtful, insightful man.

Respect sir.

Barry Williams
785 Posted 30/12/2020 at 16:22:07
Chris Williams - 781

You are welcome, for forbearance is my middle name!

Chris Williams
786 Posted 30/12/2020 at 16:22:56
Hell, I knew that Barry!
Barry Williams
787 Posted 30/12/2020 at 16:23:14
Mike Gaynes - 782

Yes, a lack of sensible well informed government action!

Tony Hill
788 Posted 30/12/2020 at 16:26:38
There have now been 108,000 lateral flow tests carried out in London, 42,000 this past week. It will be interesting to see the results when (if) they are published.
Will Mabon
789 Posted 30/12/2020 at 16:30:03
"More than a third of a million of our fellow citizens are dead, substantially because of the pathetic LACK of government action".

Said of governments probably the world over. Hey - please feel free to condemn the government, but only in acceptable ways. And do obey the government.

Does anyone know anyone else in their life that they so frequently criticize and disparage, yet simultaneously look to for guidance.

Seems to me, most don't want better or different – just more.

Yes, it's called a democracy. Yes, there are laws and rules. Doesn't mean they're all fair, correct, nor for the interests of the majority.

Andy Crooks
790 Posted 30/12/2020 at 16:35:27
Robert, I was in contact with Steve Ferns early December and he was fine, though lamenting the poor form we were in at the time. I do miss his comments.
Brian Williams
791 Posted 30/12/2020 at 16:54:20
Andy, how are you and yours keeping, mate?
Rob Halligan
792 Posted 30/12/2020 at 16:56:44
Brian, you've got first priority, along with those who were due to go to the Man City game, when fans are allowed back in. God knows when that will be though? 😞😞😞
Brian Williams
793 Posted 30/12/2020 at 17:00:15
Yeh, Rob, the club sent a very nice email once the announcement was made. Nothing they can do about the situation.

As I said somewhere earlier, at least I won't have to stand for hours in the cold waiting for a test.

Brian Harrison
794 Posted 30/12/2020 at 17:01:47
Spurs v Fulham called off just 4 hours before the game, no wonder people are questioning the Premier League officials. Also been announced that City will resume training tomorrow, just highlights the nonsense of the decision the other night, so I presume their home game at the weekend will go ahead.

The protocols that worked up to September are not as effective now the new variant of the virus has taken control. Another worry is the FA Cup restarts next week and there are a lot of outbreaks in teams in the lower divisions, so it will be interesting to see how many games between lower league sides and Premier League sides get cancelled.

Another poor set of figures released today: a further 50,000 have tested positive in the last 24 hours and even more sobering a further 981 have died in the last 24 hours. That's over 100,000 in 2 days, despite half the country being in Tier 4 – it seems to be having little effect.

Mike Gaynes
795 Posted 30/12/2020 at 17:01:52
BBC reporting City have no further positives from today's test results, and they've reopened their training ground.

Brian, Rob... condolences on missing out due to the new restrictions.

Chris, thanks.

Will #789, life ain't fair -- just ask the families of the virus victims. There's no place outside of Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory that all rules are fair. And governments in a democracy exist to protect the rights of the minority.

Paul Hewitt
796 Posted 30/12/2020 at 17:10:48
Man City just didn't want to play us with players missing. Ridiculous.
Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
797 Posted 30/12/2020 at 17:12:27
Mike #782. We both agree that you are going to have a better president in a month's time than the one you have at the moment. Even if it had not been Biden, Philo Beddoe's sidekick would have done a better job.

But I do find the biased left-wing anti-Trump BBC are very disingenuous in their reporting. "The virus is totally out of control in the US with over 3,000 deaths per day". Yes, but a population of 331,965,664 (according to John Hpkins University). That is the same rate as the UK having 615 a day (population of 68,063,019). Somehow the BBC with our wonderful NHS is doing okay but Trump run US is a complete shambles. We had 915 reported today.

A check on Worldometers from JHU puts US behind Spain, Italy, Belgium and UK in deaths per million. Big country with small population will do better than small country with a big population. I suspect the rates in Wyoming are pretty low. Europe is only 80% of the rate of the US. Where it is a disaster is the 7 cases for every 4 in Europe. But we thought your healthcare was awful and people without money died on the street and yet you have a far better survival rate than we do in Europe.

Perhaps shows the fallacy of statistics.

Remain Positive and stay Negative.

Thomas Richards
798 Posted 30/12/2020 at 17:17:11
Massively important that we get 3 points tomorrow.

If the Premier League season is cancelled (with them on top) the powers that be will do their utmost to award them the title.

We need to be in top 4 when it closes down.

Jamie Crowley
799 Posted 30/12/2020 at 17:19:49
Mike -

We've been down this road before.

My largest issue with lockdowns is the state governments closing businesses. They should have no authority to do so in my opinion.

You hear a lot about people dying, the numbers of positive cases, and that's very tragic.

But I think the people who have worked their entire lives to support the people they love having to close their doors because the government shuts them down is just plain wrong. The government should have no authority to do that, no matter the landscape.

When you look at it from my perspective, it's not as wicked or heartless a stance.

Jamie #689, what scares me is the number of Americans who are more outraged by government action against a pandemic than they are by the extent of the pandemic itself.

That's where we disagree. I'm absolutely frightened to death that Americans are allowing their government to interfere with their private lives, and most specifically commerce.

We'll never agree. It goes back to my initial comment of this argument being, in no small measure, a barometer of what level you believe the government should be involved in your life. There's a really big difference between a speed limit, and mandating closures of businesses that puts people out of work and makes people go hungry.

Enjoy Oregon, I'll enjoy Florida. I think our choice of where we live fits both our lives. ;0)

Steve Brown
800 Posted 30/12/2020 at 17:24:06
Commiserations to those who missed out on Friday's game now Liverpool has moved into Tier 3. It will be a long time before fans are able to return to grounds now.

Hope the shit show in the UK abates, but I doubt it to be honest. Stay safe everyone – and wear a bloody mask!

Paul Hewitt
801 Posted 30/12/2020 at 17:25:43
Jamie #799. It's scandalous that governments are forcing people to lose their jobs, and businesses to go bust. But maybe that's part of the plan.
Tony Hill
802 Posted 30/12/2020 at 17:27:14
Hear, hear, Jamie.

Rob Halligan
803 Posted 30/12/2020 at 17:30:20
So pleased to hear all is well at Man City again, and they can gleefully return to their training ground! 😠😠
Thomas Richards
804 Posted 30/12/2020 at 17:31:33
A lot of young people's lives are on hold. This will have a big impact on their careers. I will wager the suicide rates among young people will go up.

In my opinion, given the stats, they should be allowed to live their lives. In work, in leisure and in health centres, gyms.

Graham Hammond
805 Posted 30/12/2020 at 18:00:19
Paul #801, Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you, it is scandalous that the Government is killing jobs and scandalous too that small businesses (particularly) are going bust. And yes, it is all part of the plan!

This government has had choices to make and those choices paint it for what it is. Those people with lots of money (generally Tory voters) have been handed more money in many cases whilst those without, for example, those forced into self-employment because of unemployment or an inability to gain work, have very often not been given a penny.

Society has never been more divided.

Paul Birmingham
806 Posted 30/12/2020 at 18:03:51
Rob, @803, yep, City took the piss with the Premier League, who you'd think after this year would have got some spine.

More likely they'll be getting some swanky villas to fly out to next summer, in the Emirates, for turning a blind eye.

That's the point now, there doesn't appear to any rule now, regards what criteria must be met by any club, to request postponement, or review of a team's playing capability, after Monday's sketch.

The games going mad – VAR, Covid-19, but with a glass half-full I sincerely hope 2021 is the start of a new era and spirit for Everton and success on and off the pitch.

Hopefully a good one too for Evertonians.

Mike Gaynes
807 Posted 30/12/2020 at 18:14:35
Jamie, when businesses lost are considered more important -- and more a cause of outrage -- than lives lost, then IMO human perspective has been utterly abandoned.

Businesses can be recovered. Lives cannot. Commerce can be restored. Dead people cannot.

You're right, we will never, ever agree on what's more important between the two. I've lost a career. I've lost family. There is no comparison.

ps... yeah, you're in a red state and I'm in a blue one, but I'd bet the mortgage my neighborhood is "redder" than yours.

Andy Crooks
808 Posted 30/12/2020 at 18:18:38
Brian, all okay thanks. Glad to see you posting. Just wish I could emulate the mature serenity of so many blues. I don't get as wound up as I used to but unfortunately there are few grey areas for me. For example, the Man Utd defeat had me ready to implode!

Hope you are well. See you at Goodison soon. New Year's resolution: I will NOT, NEVER post until 24 hours after a defeat.

Tony Hill
809 Posted 30/12/2020 at 18:19:43
My grandson works as a kitchen porter in a Liverpool restaurant, an excellent and courageous starter business last year.

They were fully booked for New Year's Eve and had spent on food, drink etc. accordingly. They operate on tight margins, of course. They struggled through much of last year, had some joy when lockdown in Liverpool was eased, have not had furlough money when promised and now face collapse.

Build back better though, eh?

Si Cooper
810 Posted 30/12/2020 at 18:26:01
Phil KR, you will never get a ‘true' picture just by looking at the most basic of statistics.

You have to have information and analysis on a huge range of variables such as population density, climate, modes of transport, living conditions, cultural practices, etc, etc, etc.

For instance, it could be argued that our general population density and widespread use of public transport make us a much easier ride for the virus compared to huge swathes of the US. I think Trump has to take responsibility if the virus has spread to every corner of the US.

Boris has made plenty of mistakes but he could never have halted the spread of the virus pretty much everywhere in mainland UK without a very severe lockdown in March. I doubt he would have had the compliance he needed at that stage given the cavalier approach to just another ‘flu' that many were advocating at that stage.

Mike G, unfortunately I've become increasingly aware as I grow older of how few people actually seem to understand the fundamental principles of a civilised society. Pro-choice has something to answer for when people believe wanting something enough makes it their ‘right'.

Tony Hill
811 Posted 30/12/2020 at 18:30:19
Yes, civilised society very much depends on those who know what's best. Choice and freedom for the unwashed are greatly overrated.
Rob Halligan
812 Posted 30/12/2020 at 18:31:54
Tony 809, in a situation like you describe, why couldn't the government have said that maybe we go into Tier 3 on say Saturday or Sunday?

For fuck's sake, in the past they have called for lockdown / tier restriction changes within a few days of the announcement. What difference is another day or two going to make? Do they honestly believe people won't socialise, visit friends and relatives tomorrow night?

Jeez they are more deluded than I thought, and we've got this useless government for about another 3 or 4 years. God help us!!

Brian Williams
813 Posted 30/12/2020 at 19:01:09
Andy #808.

Thanks for that post, it made me laugh out loud for the first time in a few days. Why? Because I know you too well to believe you'll stick to the 24-hour rule.

Like me, you'll try, you'll avoid ToffeeWeb, and then you'll weaken like me, read a post that sets off the grenade inside and next thing you're typing while silently saying things that rhyme with "cupid stunt."

I am learning though mate. I can highly recommend the scroll, scroll, and keep on scrolling.

Stay safe mate, see you soon enough, keep the faith, my friend.

John Pendleton
814 Posted 30/12/2020 at 19:03:38
For most Xmas holidays I can't remember what I did between Christmas and New Year.

Not 2020 - I read 800+ posts that started as as a postponed game and grew to cover health policy, government models, conspiracy theories, vaccination, abortion, media, leadership, lockdown - with a couple of valiant attempts to return matters back to EFC.

Thanks for the entertaining contributions all, but particularly to Jay Woods (#590) for link to the death rate league - no doubt we'll finish a disappointing 5th.

Thomas Richards
815 Posted 30/12/2020 at 19:15:39
Particular emphasis has been given to the effect of the pandemic on children and young people. Numerous surveys have highlighted that their mental health has been disproportionately affected, relative to older adults, 37 and some suggest an increase in suicidal thoughts and self-harm.

British Medical Journal

Neil Copeland
816 Posted 30/12/2020 at 19:54:00
I take it then that City have completed the deep clean of their training facility as promised. Anything which helps protect lives is obviously good.

I assume that their players have only been allowed to resume training after testing negative. So, what is the difference between those same players taking tests now and 3-4 hours before kick-off at Goodison? Have they suddenly discovered a better means of testing?

It will be very interesting to see if their game at the weekend goes ahead and, if so, how many first-teamers are missing or isolating.

No wonder we are asking for full disclosure.

Tony Abrahams
817 Posted 30/12/2020 at 20:41:51
Is it morbid to look up the charts on suicide, especially at this time of the year? Over 800,000 per year, or somebody, somewhere every 40 seconds, with 79% of these cases happening in middle or low income countries.

Money doesn't make everyone happy, but it eases the tension and helps give people the “freedom” that might otherwise overwhelm them, so it's obvious there is going to be a big rise in mental health issues, Thomas@815, because a lot of people are definitely struggling financially right now.

I'd definitely go along with Mike G, because life is more precious than anything, but I'm not sure people always feel this way when they're struggling, especially those who have maybe never had a good life to begin with, because there are a lot of very poor unfortunate souls in this world, unfortunately.

So yes, it's very, very morbid, especially because January is usually such a slow and depressing month, so let's all look out for each other, and also hope Everton keep doing well, because it definitely makes us feel a lot better, when our team are doing well.

With us going into Tier 3, it feels like New Year's Eve has been brought forward, so all the best to everyone, singing we shall not be moved, Everton!

Thomas Richards
818 Posted 30/12/2020 at 21:01:00
It's not morbid to me, Tony. I think i'ts of the utmost importance when it comes to the young people in our society.

If you look back, it was them I referred to specifically. The mental health of the younger members of my family is a legitimate concern to me. That doesn't disappear because it's Christmas.

Especially when the figures show that 388 people under the age of 60, without underlying medical conditions, is the proportion of the death toll.

Let the youth get on with their lives.

Tony Abrahams
819 Posted 30/12/2020 at 21:26:58
Lockdown laziness contributed to me sending my kids back to school in June, Thomas, and this was when the sun was shining and they could play in the garden all day. I personally find Christmas the most depressing time of the year, and the current restrictions have definitely ten-folded my thoughts this year.

Life is for living, otherwise what's the point, has always been how I fee,l Thomas, it's why I try and drag my kids out every day, even when it's freezing and there isn't much to do.

I look at things differently though mate, because I'm sure it'll soon pass and normality will return for our children, but I see a lot of elderly people for whom Covid and government restrictions, has totally taken the wind out of their sails, and I'm not sure they will ever get it back, which is the saddest thing of all to me.

John Keating
820 Posted 30/12/2020 at 21:45:27
A bit pointless having lockdowns and various tiers.
People are entering the country with no checks or a question asked
People are moving from area to area
Kids with the virus and showing no symptoms are going to school and engaging with their elders
We still have people going about as if there is no virus and no risk of spreading it
I bet the town is full of people going on the piss prior to the pubs shutting
The only people scoring out the pubs opening were those making scotch eggs!
Chris Williams
821 Posted 30/12/2020 at 21:59:33
Tony,

Music my friend. Have a listen to a guitarist called Tony Rice. I guarantee he will blow your mind.

Church Street Blues. Not in Liverpool mind. Appalachian Bluegrass.

Also try Clifton Chenier for a nice bit of Zydeco.

Speaking as a geezer well stricken in years, it’ll all be fine. It always is.

Thomas Richards
822 Posted 30/12/2020 at 21:59:45
Great post Tony.

And really good to see kids in the fresh air rather than sittjng on computers, phones.
I love life Tony, I am blessed in the large family I have got.
Sometimes that leads me to being overprotective of them.

And re the older people.
I would 100% prioritise them all day mate.

Made of good stock scouse pensioners. They will come back.

Tony Abrahams
823 Posted 30/12/2020 at 22:07:44
I said before John, it’s like New Year, has been brought forward, and then my son, has just come in, leaving the front door wide open. I told him to shut the door, but he told me he had a cab waiting to take him into town, and he was only coming in to get changed, because Boris, had moved the goalposts, but they’ve managed to grab an apartment, so he will see me sometime tomorrow!

I’ve been young myself, I suspect I’d have been doing the same thing myself if I was still his age, but I’m also sure this next lockdown, will help suppress the virus once again, and hopefully then, the vaccine will finally help life begin to get back to a bit of normality🤞

Paul Hewitt
824 Posted 30/12/2020 at 22:13:47
Don't people who catch Covid then produce antibodies to fight it in the future? If that's true, surely it's better for healthy people to catch it.
John Keating
825 Posted 30/12/2020 at 22:22:04
Thing is, Tony, it's not the Government just moving the goalposts.

Look how many people – not just younger ones – having been coming into town from outside the last few weeks. They've treated the town like it was Benidorm! Arrive, get gutted,, and go home.

We tried to do the best for the City but it's not worked. Where people are involved, it's a guaranteed fuck-up.

Kevin Molloy
826 Posted 30/12/2020 at 22:22:29
Mike,

it always sounds bad when people put commerce before people's lives, but it's something we do every day, it's just not front and centre.

We kill two thousand men women and children every year in this country so that we can drive around. People cut down in the prime of life mainly, unlike this virus which has taken so far just 300 from that cohort in the UK.

It is an ugly calculation but there is always a price to be paid for saving a life, and many times every day the state is not. prepared to pay it.
the situation we are in currently, we have bankrupted ourselves and our children for maybe two generations, and bought ourselves time to get the vaccine out.

We might have been able to play that differently. We might have said, 'all you people of working age and no health issues, get to work, and live a normal life. Everyone else, this virus presents a risk, if you are over 70 a palpable risk, you need to shield until we get the vaccine'.

None of us know whether that could have been done successfully, but what boils my piss is that we weren't even really allowed to discuss it. if you tried to raise it, you were howled down and accused of heartlessness.

Danny O’Neill
827 Posted 30/12/2020 at 22:37:13
It's not morbid Tony. There are many other causes of death that we are losing sight of. I have very strong views as I have mentioned earlier on here. I lost my parents relatively young to cancer and now face another family battle against that horrible disease that will be with us long after this virus is yesterday's news.

Apologies for the rawness, but I guess it kind of makes me slightly bitter.

A very valid point about the young. They are the most impacted yet the most maligned. I have a son in his early 20s and it has been very difficult for them. Easy for an awl-arse like me who's life in fairness hasn't changed too much.

I've probably spent too many months and years away from family, in isolated locations with restrictions of privileges in shitty parts of the world. Now I can go to the supermarket, drink wine and watch football or Netflix. I guess that has inadvertently conditioned me, so this is no big deal personally other than the pubs not being open!

I do fear for the young though. This will really impact them more rather than me or my elderly relatives.

Patrick McFarlane
828 Posted 30/12/2020 at 22:40:31
The most important thing now, regardless of how we think the government has 'managed' this pandemic is to get those vaccines out to the vulnerable and essential workers and everybody else asap.

It always makes me sad, that a small country such as the UK deems it fine to spend huge amounts on Nuclear Weapons, which we all hope are never used, but baulks at the thought of spending similar amounts on health even in a crisis – unless of course, it helps their chums to increase their bank-balances.

If the people in charge had put the country on a war-footing against Covid, early doors, we may not have seen the largely unnecessary deaths and economic suffering. But we can't wave a flag for a battle against a virus, can we?

I would also argue that Boris and Company, by trying to keep businesses open for too long and pandering to the big business lobbyists in the early days, had the exact opposite effect to what they had hoped for, by dithering and switching from one position to another, they sewed confusion and allowed the virus to run rampant, whilst simultaneously the ordinary guy in the street lost faith in whatever measures that were put in place.

Danny O’Neill
829 Posted 30/12/2020 at 22:51:35
Difficult one Patrick and probably an entirely other debate.

I get the view, but over the course of history, strong nations tend to build strong economies built around being strong militarily. It gives them a seat at the table and influence.

It's why Iran is so keen on it; they get taken notice of rather than invaded like Iraq and Afghanistan or Libya.

Having a nuclear arsenal gives the UK global influence and a seat on the UN Security Council big 5.

I don't expect you to agree, but generally the most powerful economy goes in hand with having the most powerful military. And that economy pays for health, social security and other things we take for granted.

That's my view within reason, using the British Empire and 20th Century United States as examples.

Clearly there are bad examples of military dictatorship, but I'm talking about using military power to back up soft power and economic strength.

Tony Abrahams
830 Posted 30/12/2020 at 23:12:37
I understand your rawness Danny, especially at Christmas time, which is usually a time for reflection and longing, and can make it a very hard time for so many different reasons.

I can understand the selfishness of the younger generation, but it’s when that selfishness still exists in older people, I sometimes despair and think that life has learned them nothing, but as you say Danny, it’s easy for us arl arses, because reminiscing can also be a great thing!

I will listen to that music tomorrow Chris, praying that last sentence rings true once more, and I will keep spoiling my kids Thomas, just as long as they don’t become spoilt little baskets!

A very bad year, I’m just watching Diego Maradona on TV, so it’s fitting that Napoli, are gonna be naming their new stadium after the most talented footballer I’ve ever seen.

Where people are involved indeed John, even the greats, because Diego Maradona definitely amused himself to death🙏

Mike Gaynes
831 Posted 30/12/2020 at 23:13:13
Chris #821, did you know Tony just passed away on Saturday? According to Ricky Skaggs, he was making his coffee when he died.

Chenier was great, but when I'm in a Louisiana mood I click Geno Delafose. Or Balfa.

Paul Hewitt
832 Posted 30/12/2020 at 23:17:52
Danny @829.

Would any country actually press the button? Knowing it would eventually mean the destruction of their country?

Tony Abrahams
833 Posted 30/12/2020 at 23:22:51
Without a doubt, Paul, especially when looking round at some of the world leaders, mate!
Danny O’Neill
834 Posted 30/12/2020 at 23:26:18
I was young and stupid once, Tony, as we probably all were, and done things we shouldn't have. So I won't preach to young people who are facing restrictions like I never did. I expect people of my experience and age to know better but can understand the frustration of the younger generation.

Paul, probably not if you're asking me, but I'm not the person with my finger on the button. But that's politics and military strategy. Show strength and make the other side believe you are willing to. Otherwise, you demonstrate weakness.

Like it or not, it kept the peace in Europe for 50 years. And that was the US & UK, not the EU. Likewise Iran's ballsey stand up to the west has stopped them being the next Iraq in my opinion.

Israel is a tiny country surrounded by enemies who want them eliminated from the face of the earth. But non of them will try it just in case. And they also have probably the most advanced economy in that region.

Mike Gaynes
835 Posted 30/12/2020 at 23:41:43
Danny #829, your view would get strong disagreement from Taiwan, South Africa, Japan, Poland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway and the Netherlands, all of whom have built strong economies without a significant military footprint.
Danny O’Neill
836 Posted 30/12/2020 at 23:41:45
Tony, that Diego programme is fantastic. I can watch it time and again. It makes me as happy as it makes me sad. A young Diego who literally had the world at his talented feet. An older one who threw it away.

When I watch that, I realise that I didn't appreciate how good he was at the time.

Probably because he didn't play for Everton and didn't see it through my blue tinted glasses!

Danny O’Neill
837 Posted 30/12/2020 at 23:54:12
But in the knowledge that the US in particular and the UK in reserve has their back, Mike?

South Africa probably the exception.

Taiwan, South Korea and Japan all supported by US military power post WW2.

Australia, New Zealand and Canada contribute considerably to the 5 eyes effort. I have served on numerous operations with Dutch, Norwegian and Danish colleagues.

Switzerland I'll give you is unique but then the European powers have always left them alone as they are a useful tax haven!!

My point is that generally over the course of history, the strongest economies are underpinned by military power. It was more obvious in the days of Empire but the US and China are carrying that torch forward in modern times.

I suppose the difference I'm making is strongest versus strong.

Mike Gaynes
838 Posted 31/12/2020 at 00:18:24
To all male Yanks of a certain age, this will be devastating news.

Dawn Wells, AKA Mary Ann, has died of COVID.

The first love of millions of 9-year-old boys.

Danny O’Neill
839 Posted 31/12/2020 at 00:23:30
Can't say I know her but condolences Mike. We all remember our first love Everton right?!!

Hope all is well States side. Not been able to get out to my house this year although did get to New York in January.

Alan McGuffog
840 Posted 31/12/2020 at 02:03:18
Not just Yanks, Mike. Preferred Ginger though she looked a right dirty ticket!
Kieran Kinsella
841 Posted 31/12/2020 at 02:25:36
Mike Gaynes/Jamie Crowley

Interesting debate. I'm sensitive to the loss of livelihood of business owners. But, I have an acquaintance who died of Covid and his family's circumstances made it especially tragic. So I'd definitely side with Mike.

On the freedom argument. Honestly I happily trade freedoms for myself if it means depriving others of their freedoms to do things I disapprove of. Beyond that, I've always managed to find a way to do what I want anyway regardless of the rules so as long as I can oppress miscreants and have the luck and inventiveness to evade the rules, then I'm all about control. :)

Kieran Kinsella
842 Posted 31/12/2020 at 02:40:32
Tony

I was interested to see that 6 out of the 10 countries with the highest suicide rate were former Soviet republics. What does this tell us? Disillusionment with a failed societal model? An after-effect after 70 years of atheism?

Germany had an incredibly high suicide rate after WWII which has been attributed to the moral vacuum of Nazism.

I don't know the answer. But if you look at quality of life, you'd expect the Congo, Niger, Chad, etc to have the highest suicide rates and yet none of them feature while affluent South Korea is in the top 10.

So is suicide driven by real despair or by the perception of despair? – eg, a middle class South Korean loses his job and can't face becoming poor versus a Chadian who is uneducated, desperately poor and has known nothing but the basic instinct to survive?

I don't know the answer. But mental health, suicide, these are terrible things that we need to better understand

Chris Williams
843 Posted 31/12/2020 at 06:54:06
Hi Mike,

Yes I did know Tony had died. I'd listened to his stuff loads over the years, but he'd slipped from my consciousness to be honest, in more recent times.

Reading his obituary in the Guardian triggered me into listening to him again in some depth, and it just blew me away. Since then I've been recommending his music to all and sundry, and sending clips all over the place. The virtuosity is incredible. His duets with that other old flatpicker Doc Watson are superb. We saw Doc on the Cavern in the mid 60s I guess, and although we didn't really know what we were watching we knew it was good.

Zydeco works wonders in blowing the Blue Meanies away!

Take care Mike

Chris Williams
844 Posted 31/12/2020 at 07:05:22
Tony@830

Listen to that music, and it will help. It always does for me, mate. In a lot of ways it was feeling a bit down from time to time that prompted me to do that stuff on the Reasons To Be Cheerful thread. Or if I was on a Rioja induced high!

Lost in music! You never know where your mind will take you.

I did a bit more over Christmas Tony, and put some New Year stuff up yesterday which surprised me a bit the way it came out. It made me feel a bit better anyway!

Take care Tony

Thomas Richards
845 Posted 31/12/2020 at 09:14:38
Kevin #826

Very good post mate.

Danny#827

I think Tony misinterpreted my post when he mentioned morbid to look up suicide figures. I didn't do that. I put up an excerpt from the BMJ pointing out the increase in self-harm and suicide rates in young people over the last year.

The figure I did put up was 388. That 388 is the total amount of deaths, put down to Covid, in fatalities under the age of 60 with no underlying health issues. In my opinion, that does not justify putting young peoples lives on hold.

It was obvious after a few months who covid was killing in the main. ALL resources and the billions of pounds wasted should have been aimed at protecting the elderly.

Chris Williams
846 Posted 31/12/2020 at 09:24:15
Mike,

The penny has just dropped as to who Dawn Wells was. Gilligan's Island right? It was Alan's lascivious musings about Ginger that tipped me off. I agree with him for what it's worth.

Quiz question from Scrooged. What was the name of their boat?

Alan McGuffog
847 Posted 31/12/2020 at 09:48:24
Chris / Mike as a youngster I presented with that condition, I can't recall its name, whereby the brain hasn't sorted out which is your dominant hand.
Ginger helped sort me out.
Chris Williams
848 Posted 31/12/2020 at 09:53:46
Alan,

Fortunately I was ambidextrous in certain situations at least!

Oh well off to confession again!

Rob Halligan
849 Posted 31/12/2020 at 10:07:18
Regarding Man City (for the final time!!), we will soon see how bad their situation was when we see their team for Sunday against Chelsea. We know Walker and Jesus were two of the infected ones, and some have said Ederson was another. So that leaves two unknown.

Of course, Man City could say it is players within their 25-man squad who very rarely play anyway. The BBC website are reporting that all infected players will miss their game against Chelsea, but to reopen their training ground two days after claiming loads of positive cases does seem rather quick.

Something still doesn't seem right to me about all this, and I hope Everton can obtain full disclosure of what Man City provided to the Premier League.

Brian Murray
850 Posted 31/12/2020 at 10:24:25
All restrictions in and around Manchester due to the post Xmas miracle whereby everyone has been cured of Covid. Seems obvious eh pep.
Brian Harrison
851 Posted 31/12/2020 at 10:27:36
Many are blaming Man City for the postponement of the game, but this decision was made by the Premier League.

Now I know that Man City asked the question of the Premier League as to their position regarding postponing the game because they had some Covid cases. So rather than field a weakened team they asked the question which they did, and the Premier League decided to postpone the game.

Then yesterday Spurs v Fulham was called off 4 hours before the game, again it was the Premier League who called it off. But the question is have the Premier league changed their rules of no postponement if clubs have 14 fit players, as clearly Man City and probably Fulham had 14 fit players.

So it's now been decided by the Premier League that they are no longer adhering to their own rules, they now say they will look at each request to postpone games on a case-by-case scenario. So seeing they have abandoned their rule of the 14 fit players, how many have to be tested positive before a game is called off?

Tony Abrahams
852 Posted 31/12/2020 at 11:58:22
Church Street Blues, reminds me of the last time Everton won the cup Chris, and my old friend, the street trader Brian Gould, who had a big ghetto blaster blurring “Altogether Now” all over that famous st, right in the middle of our city!

That music with Skaggs, made me want to sit in a field around the campfire mate, especially when the fiddler was in charge!

Try “in memory of the martyrs” by BJH, I still love listening to that free concert they done in Berlin all those years ago.

It was me Thomas, I was staggered by there being a suicide somewhere every forty seconds mate, and then Kieran got me thinking about perception, which is also reality for a tortured brain, I'm sure?

Lastly to Brian, because it's obvious the EPL have took instructions from the government, in how to make it up as they go along, and just shows me, what little vision the men in charge have, because has there ever been a more stupid rule to begin with, given how contagious this virus can be?

Tony Abrahams
853 Posted 31/12/2020 at 12:12:37
I had a go at Geno Delafose, Mike, and “dance all night, stay a little longer”, took me into the future, to when Everton next win the cup, and we are all smiling as infectiously as Clifton Chenier, hopefully!
Thomas Richards
854 Posted 31/12/2020 at 12:38:55
No worries Tony mate.

Brian Gould!
A great man, one of lifes true gentlemen.
Young ginge is out of the same mould.
Great blues as well

Thomas Richards
855 Posted 31/12/2020 at 12:47:55
You've stirred the memory bank, Tony.

The Goulds, what a family of great Evertonians. Staunch to the core. Billy, David and Peter, fantastic memories of our great days home and away and the parties afterwards. Wonderful family.

Martin Nicholls
856 Posted 31/12/2020 at 13:00:46
Chris #821 – took your advice to Tony and listened to Tony Rice's "Church Street Blues". Brilliant – thanks for the heads up!
Chris Williams
857 Posted 31/12/2020 at 13:28:10
He was quite special, Martin. I've never seen or heard a guitarist with such technique. Great track as well.

I'd forgotten about him for years.

Chris Williams
858 Posted 31/12/2020 at 13:40:02
Hi Tony,

Barclay James Harvest, another band I’d not heard for years. There’s too much good music in the world! I’ve got a couple of albums by them on vinyl, up in the attic. That’s a lovely track I wasn’t familiar with.

Yes, music is massively evocative of time and place. Your campfire could have been in Colomendy!

Bon Ton Rouler by Chenier will really get your wheels rolling.

Tony Abrahams
859 Posted 31/12/2020 at 14:13:36
Brilliant, Thomas, I hope you can still remember that music blaring all the way along Church Street mate? And for a fanbase that have definitely stood the test of time, it's normally around this time every year that I say “our names on that fuckn FA Cup!

Thomas Richards
860 Posted 31/12/2020 at 14:18:21
Hopefully, Tony, one day somewhere down the line we will win a trophy again mate.

You will know the story about David Gould hitching to San Siro Milan on his own to watch the blues. Think it was Colin Harvey's debut.

He was only a kid and he loved the blues that much he hitched lifts all the way to Milan and back. What an Evertonian!

Tony Abrahams
861 Posted 31/12/2020 at 14:25:18
I didn’t know that story Thomas, but it doesn’t surprise me one bit because Everton have got loads of fanatical fans, fans who are desperate for a little tiny bit of success.

It’s our year, I’m telling yer, that Clifton Chenier’s smile is infectious!!

Thomas Richards
862 Posted 31/12/2020 at 14:32:15
Your dad will know it mate.

When he got back, took him 5 days to get home, the story was in the echo.
"David Gould 17 years old hitchhikes to Italy."

He was made up until he went into the boozer he had drank in for the last year or so and got lashed because the manager had seen the story in the echo and realised he was underage.

Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
863 Posted 31/12/2020 at 14:40:26
Si #810,

Yes the UK is more densely populated and populated more densely.

Enjoy the street parties tonight, folks. {facepalm}

Paul Birmingham
864 Posted 31/12/2020 at 14:45:22
Brian @850, I agree and I've stated on several threads this week on TW that the Premier League, need to confirm the rules, as the 4 hr before a game postponement scenario, could become a convenient way out down the line for some teams in the Premier League.

The preseason rules, or where they really loose guidelines as stated by the Premier League, don't mean anything after this week.

But now for West Ham, and hoping the game is played. Hopefully the extra rest having not played Man City will enable a strong Everton team to be picked and I'd start with the same as played Sheffield Utd. But I think Gordon could make way for Richarlison.

Hopefully we can get a good start to 2021, and a win.

Happy New Year, TWrs, and my 21st tomorrow, so I'll be on the ale good style to see in 2021!

Tony Abrahams
865 Posted 31/12/2020 at 14:49:13
Brilliant story that, Thomas, only an Evertonian could be punished for making such a committed journey!

I know it was a long time ago but surely our luck has got to change sometime, because thousands of our kids are waiting to celebrate, it's time us Evertonians went beserk once again. 🤞

Darren Hind
866 Posted 31/12/2020 at 14:50:28
I think the artisans and the purists will give this one a bit of a wide'n. The result is crucial. we have to stay with the leading pack.

To be fair, though, I would settle for getting through this without injury or ground loss.

Not expecting a classic. There will not be many games where both teams will be odds on to have the least possession.

Danny O’Neill
867 Posted 31/12/2020 at 16:49:26
Have to say this has been one of the longest, most diverse and interesting threads. I know we all come here to talk Everton but it's also genuinely interesting to see the views of people we virtually have gotten to know quite well on a variety of topics.

A couple of come backs. Firstly Thomas Richards, I am not leaving this world until we do win something again!!

Mental health is a huge thing for me Kieran. I have a few very good friends and former colleagues who really struggle due to that very issue. Very sad to see the long term impact it has.

I can't agree with your trading freedom to stop people doing things you disapprove of. I'm sure many people disapprove of things I do and say, but freedom of speech and mind affords us that and a lot of blood has been spilled securing that fundamental right.

In my reading, I tend to find that controlling establishments come to a painful and disruptive end. In societies governed by consent, we just swap them out every 4 years if they're not performing. You could argue same thing, but I would view it as transition and evolution versus revolution.

All down to opinions though I guess.

Thomas Richards
868 Posted 31/12/2020 at 17:16:43
Danny,

Me neither. It won't be a long wait though.

An absolute pleasure debating with you and all our fellow posters on ToffeeWeb.

All the best, mate.

Sam Hoare
869 Posted 31/12/2020 at 18:52:34
Lots of rumours circulating today that City's Covid outbreak is due to Kyle Walker throwing a secret Christmas Party for various players. If there is any truth in this (and it's far from implausible!), then I hope they throw the book at them – including awarding us a default 5-0 win!!
Thomas Richards
870 Posted 31/12/2020 at 19:04:09
Not all the players at the party from English leagues as well, Sam.
Philip Bunting
871 Posted 01/01/2021 at 12:07:58
Thomas, Sam. If that's true we as in fans and club should be compensated. I am sure we had a lot of fans travelling to that game, the club in its preparations also for that game. Stinks to high heaven if it's TRUE and they get away with it. Why should we have to reorganise to suit a player having a fookin party in a pandemic. Rediculous

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