Blues' efforts humbled by Reds' quality

Rondon was slightly better at the weekend – but that only raised his input to the level of useless from his previous level of absolute garbage.

I hope we give them a game but it's inevitable we lose. The manner of the defeat will be telling and will be the manager's calling card.

Lose with respect.

Interesting selection with Rafa clearly hoping that Rondon will distract their defenders and Richarlisonand Gray can sneak in. Richarlison will be a huge help to whichever full-back he supports but can Andros make his presence felt in central midfield?

It's actually not bad on paper with only Calvert-Lewin missing from a lot of fans' first-choice team. Can we turn up and give it a good try – that's the big question.

I also thought Rondon had his best game for Everton at Brentford, although I acknowledge Richarlison and Dom would have been attacking Gray's delivery better than Rondon and Gordon did.

So doesn't having Rondon in the team alongside Richarlison, flanked by Gray and Townsend, show a degree of boldness, rather than having an isolated striker and packing the midfield to merely contain and defend..?

If they lose, I hope it's not close or they are unlucky. I hope they are well beaten and the fraud who is our manager (in name only) can disappear ignominiously.

It is truly awful to have that mindset but, if he stays, we are going down with a whimper.

A near gale from one end to the other however could give us at least one, maybe 2 (I've known the wind direction do a 180 depending on tides) halves of having to try to play it out along the ground against their press.

Let's hope it's one of those nights when all the luck is with us.

*slaps own face

Other times I feel like a genius. How in the hell are you going to compete with this side without going hell for leather against them? And for about 10 minutes we did it and it was a different game.

FFS the game isn't that complicated. If a team is much better than you (and they are) you've got to be absolutely horrible.

They could have been two up after 3 minutes. Two top finishes by them in 20 minutes. Good goal by us via Allan-Richy-Gray. Four bookings for us in that half and only one really merited. Digne taking out Henderson.

Townsend and Gray harshly booked for simulation. Allan won as clean a tackle as you can see for his booking. There was nothing malicious or intentional in his following leg catching Jota. Shouldn't have even been a free kick, never mind a booking.

Great chance on the stroke of half-time for Doucoure, who but for that has been invisible.

Townsend a little off again, but Rondon (yes, Rondon), Richy and Gray are playing well. Smart move by Rafa to go with four up front. High risk, given how they play, but rich rewards if it comes off as it did for our goal.

Not done yet this game by any means.

"Well, what was looking as though it was going to be an evening of deep humiliation, we clawed our way back into that game."

That didn't age well.

We are in deep trouble, as I don't think this squad could get promotion back to the Premier League in the Championship. Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin will be gone.

Decades of mismanagement. What a disgrace.

Hate this team. Hate the manager and hate the top brass that are totally inept. Absolute bunch of clowns.

You've totally broken me and made me embarrassed to get my kid to support Everton.

Awful.

Rafa out? What's the point? The problem is the management and Brands.

We're a basket case in deep relegation form.

Liverpool miles ahead of us in class and yet we were still in the match and battling for it against the odds until Coleman's terrible error killed the match, ripped the heart out of the crowd and the players.

How can the manager be blamed for that?

Worst derby defeat in 39 years.

Thank you, Moshiri and Co. Absolutely marvellous stuff.

Time fo drive these folks out.

Not going down Rafa’s not leaving. And I think this team may have enough to find some chemistry up front while we look for some obviously needed replacements elsewhere.

There was nothing wrong with what Benitez did tonight, the players just aren't up to it.

Big players like Richarlison & Digne anonymous tonight.

Blame the board and the players, they deserve it. However, the board and players aren't going anywhere. Something must be done to avoid the chance of relegation and Benitez out is it. There is no other option.

Who'd replace him?

I thought Rondon did a decent job, Gray looked dangerous and Pickford saved a few albeit he could be questioned on their third and fourth goals. Coleman and Allan were very poor in that regard. Doucouré doesn't yet look match fit to me. Gordon looked okay.

They were first to the ball and seemed physically stronger. Our full-backs were poor and needed better cover than the rest of the team gave them.

We were clearly beaten by a much better team but at least we didn't throw in the towel and, for a while, we had a real game on our hands.

Rafa will no doubt cop for a load of stick but most teams would have been stuffed by them tonight. The Arsenal game will be more of a guide as to whether Rafa can turn this around.

The Shite will beat most other sides by similar margins.

We are miles away from them, and bad defensive sloppiness apart, I did not think we disgraced ourselves.

Stick with Benitez.

All the positivity in the world isn't going to change this situation. We're beyond that, or at least we ought to be. Eight games, two points – that's nearly a quarter of the league season!

Why would Moshiri not be seeking to sell? We're a shambles.

Agreed. Arsenal and Palace are the real test of our resolve and courage.

Fans walking out after 20 minutes should be all that the board need to know; they have to act now.

For those blaming Rafa I understand the disappointment, the red connection and poor effort, but we all know the players are just not good enough.

We need to play a high tempo, with real guts and effort but it's about doing the right thing at the right time.

We lack cohesion, generally a basic requirement and we have for several seasons. Along with a lack of effort is what I think frustrates most fans.

But players keep making mistakes, choosing the wrong options, looking rushed and panicked, fail to take chances again, and again, and again.

We are a mid-table team. Another manager isn't going to change that. For now, showing support and encouragement is what we need to do. A lot of fans downed tools and that's really disappointing to see.

Small club mentality... we all need to show a massive improvement, quickly.

Rondon going off lost Everton their shape and Coleman's error just lost any momentum and finished the game for Everton.

There's a very well paid DoF who should be answering that question.

Rondon did very little despite what the contrarians will have you believe.

However it was the most effort we've seen in a while... why we have failed to put in that effort against some of the shit teams who have beaten us recently is really the question.

Benitez is a beaten docket and in the end the entire situation was humiliating.

You could have had Conte, Teuchel and Pep on our bench tonight picking and motivating the team and the same result would have happened.

Game after game.

The worst part is I'm not feeling emotional or angry – I just feel like someone who's loved one has been in a vegetative state for 30 years and everyone is looking at me like “Just pull the plug.”

Everyone forgets at the start of the season, with a new manager, the team lifts, like every other team does. But now that period is over and the real form shows.

I am a Blue and always will be a blue but, after 56 years, watching Everton has become depressing.

In my view, he is done, beaten, battered, bewildered and past it. Make the big decision now. We stink of relegation, fear and timidity. Sadly the players cannot be replaced. He can.

No faith in Rafa, his tactics and ideas are past tense. We need a young manager... I said it at the time, Arteta should have been our target. Let Lampard start from scratch.

Totally agree, but I suspect we have three DoFs in our club: Kenwright, Moshiri and Brands... Brands being the Junior one.

The players aren't good enough. Will the return of Calvert-Lewin make a difference? Will a different Manager change anything?

Seems clear to me that these players don't suit a sit back and counter style. In your face pressing is needed. Unless there are changes, then relegation is a certainty.

You're right, this is definitely the fans' fault.

Rondon was there to put himself about and ruffle them up and I thought he did that. He should never be in our team but, within his limitations, he had a better impact than Richarlison for example. He put in the effort and I thought competed well – far better than in his previous games.

The boo-boys will no doubt be pleased that he will miss the Arsenal game by the look of his injury.

We need a whole new team and no getting away from it. We are by far the worst team in the Premier League at this moment in time.

The club is a fucking embarrassment from top to bottom. Jesus Christ himself couldn't perform a miracle with this team and he performed a few. We are an absolute joke of a club.

God knows we have all sat patiently through decades of tripe.

He is outdated and no better (probably worse) than the other bums we have had lately.

Sell Pickford in January. Richarlison in the summer along with others.

That is pure conjecture at best and utter nonsense in my view. His team selection and tactics have been shown to be lamentable and that is not conjecture. We have been utterly shit and I challenge anyone to offer an argument that Benitez is the best our money can buy.

Who cares how many coaches we sack. All we want is a sign that we are making progress. We are looking more utterly shit by the game. Please let him be gone.

Calvert-Lewin is a good poacher, with high work rate and athleticism, but he ain't no Aguero.

Rafa – has-been.
Carlo – has-been.
Big Sam, Silva, Koeman – Never-beens.

Out of 10:

Pickford – poor positioning for 2 goals. 4/10
Coleman – finished at this level. 3/10
Digne – can't cross anymore. 4/10
Keane –- slow as usual. 5/10
Godfrey – 1 good tackle. 5/10
Allan – slow but battled. 5/10
Doucouré – non-existent, bad tactics from the manager about his positioning 4/10
Townsend – did nowt, 4/10
Gray – the only player showing quality. 7/10
Richarlison – again, bad tactics from manager, 6/10
Rondon – my word. Did 1 good touch in the 2nd half which earned him his 1/10.

Rafa – Baffling again. Playing Rondon, 4-4-2, etc so obvious how the game would go. Out by Crimbo at this rate. 1/10.

Liverpool, like Man City and Chelsea, are on another planet moneywise and they have been wise spending it. With the kind of wages they pay, they can attract the best and have a deep bench of top-class players so that, when they have players missing, they are not missed at all – unlike the likes of Everton.

We mustn't be too disappointed given that Rafa has had little or nothing going for him but one begs the question: How bad is Tosun if Rondon gets the start and still achieves nothing that a goalscorer is expected to do?

Another miserable footie Christmas in the forecast.

You think Brands has done a good job?

We all have different ways of dealing with it and I very nearly switched the tv off after the second and third goals but forced myself to stick with it.

I well recall having to go to school two days after a derby defeat and then later, going in to face them at work. It is embarrassing, humiliating and I won't be wearing my Everton shirts or rain jacket for a few weeks now.

Our chairman feels this but does our owner?

Is sacking the manager the answer? Probably. We need a bounce from somewhere just to limp over the 40-point line.

There's no doubt he should've played Simms at some point at Brentford. His decision-making is crap and his blind loyalty towards Rondon is laughable.

This was never going to work with him. Not just cos he's a red but because he's a defensive dinosaur. I for one hope he's out of a job tomorrow.

"THE FANS DOWNED TOOLS" ... Wow!

Shame on you, Blues at the game – you cost us the points.

The sad fact is, they are at a different level to most teams, not just us, right now. The ref was shocking. Apart from his decisions, he managed to get in the way of play twice, gave them every slight thing and us nothing.

Two bits of piss-poor individual play led to their 3rd and 4th goals – if it had ended 2-1, I wonder how upset we'd have been? If we play like that and get Calvert-Lewin back, we will be fine.

This is also the same owner who appointed Allardyce and Benitez and then gives Brands, who spunked all the money on shit players, a place on the board as well. The quicker this idiot sells up, the better.

My feelings go to Seamus tonight. He knows his football days are done and he wishes he was playing Gaelic Footy at home but he is the only player who really cares about the club. It's not his fault the club begged him to stay and threw stupid money at him to do so.

What a shambles of a club.

Do you think sacking Brands will set us on a winning run?

We need a short-term fix and there is only one option that offers it.

A derby will always get the adrenalin going, but at the end of the season it's your average game against Palace, Leeds etc that determines your position.

This lot are just lacking and that's all there is to it.

Have any of you forgotten the Silva, Koeman, Ancelotti and Aladyce reins?

Raffa cannot make a silk purse out of that gang of pigs ears, very few of them have a football brain cell between them.

Liverpool on the other hand have been well schooled for years under Klopp, who, lets not forget was nearly hounded out by a section of there fans shortly after he took the job.

Sack him and we take the drop for certain.

This lot ARE lacking, but what I'm saying is that if they put in that much effort week in, week out, then we WILL win a few games.

Get DCL back, a settled side and let's see. I know we're still shite, but equally, we won't be going down, however much certain parties in the media would like it.

Collectively the whole club is under-performing.

Everyone including the fan's can help by workings hard, making the rights decisions, being positive and supporting each other.

The media will rightly point out our players are not good enough. I don't wan't them highlighting our fans not being the great fans we are. It helps fuel negativity.

Be disappointed, then move on.

As for Rafa. If there's a better manager available great. Lets get them ASAP because very few wanted him.

But I'm not sure there is and we need to think carefully about just moving him on. We need to give someone 3 years to build a team.

6 months, 18 months, it's just not long enough to make real progress.

But our recruitment needs to be much better. 2 top quality, first team players each transfer window is needed. Brands and Rafa could do worse than raiding City and Chelsea for fringe players.

If this last two months have been him "Directing" football, God help us. Get him gone and save the salary.

Utterly devoid of ambition, looking desperately for the small log of defensive, disorganised, mid table mediocrity.

We can't keep changing managers but he can't have much longer. No rhyme or reason to his subs. Number 1 on his agenda was moving on our most creative midfielder.

Main factor of course tonight was the opposition. A top team, passed to each other and have some killer finishers that all trust each other, work for each other. Sitting there listening to them lot singing our managers name. The decisions made in the last few years.

Hard to be a blue.

Tonight was grim but I saw a lack of quality rather than a lack of effort and that falls squarely at the boards feet. The running of this club has been woeful in recent years and what we are seeing is the inevitable chickens coming home to roost.

Football has evolved in the last decade and Moshiri and Kenwright need to step back and hand over the running of the football side of things to someone else. Brands may or may not be useless but it’s pretty clear that he has not been the one running the show on the football side of things.

As for the game. They had a go. They're light years behind the opposition, but they had a go. The 3rd obviously killed us - and I'd put equal blame on Gray and Coleman for it. It was a horrible pass that was bouncing up at him under pressure, but he should have got whatever he could on it even if it meant just moving it ten yards forward.

There was some good and some bad. I don't see the point in blaming anyone on the pitch, and especially not the guy with the gloves on who kept the score down.

Just angry and sad. We waited years for our big opportunity; investment on the pitch, stadium, changes to the management... and we blew it royally. We blew it to the extent that it's likely to get worse now than it's been in my lifetime. Criminal.

I said earlier in the season that I saw us (and our style of play) as a team that would really struggle against good teams, but would be pretty handy against the lesser lights. With confidence where it's at now, we'll struggle against anyone. The only short term option is to sack the manager and hope we can get some life into these players. It's not his fault, but it doesn't mean he shouldn't go. More money pissed into the wind. The appointment was a disaster before he even signed on.

If Everton had a professional leadership team, at board and director level, then tonight, the team may have had an earthly chance.

Hopefully, the lack of professionalism, at all levels of requirement that makes a professional football club, is now agreed, and the rot in the EFC, will be fixed!

Seriously, now the first team, needs an over haul, but on the basis of no money, a new captain, to start the transition.

Time catches up, and Seamus tonight, gifted the match, as a give away..

All considered, unforced errors done Everton, tonight.

There’s no legitimate, avenue of expression tonight, of my anger, frustration, and more, but I’m Everton, 100%, life is life, as is Everton, for ever.

Fekk the RS, Everton is real, but tonight, has laid by self mistakes, in modern times, a bad prematch, for the Arsenal.

This is the must win, and get into the mind of “The Best Little Spaniard, we Know”!

Follow, follow Everton!

Absolutely raging at teletext.. brilliant.

Can't agree about Rondon, can't think of a single header or lay off in the entire time he was on the pitch. But when he came off the obvious sub was Tosun not a third wide man (4th if you count Richy who was woeful through the middle).

Can't remember the Old Lady being that quiet for a Derby as it was in the 2nd half seems like we have all had the stuffing kicked out of us.

Can't agree about Rondon, can't think of a single header or lay off in the entire time he was on the pitch. But when he came off the obvious sub was Tosun not a third wide man (4th if you count Richy who was woeful through the middle).

Can't remember the Old Lady being that quiet for a Derby as it was in the 2nd half seems like we have all had the stuffing kicked out of us.

Where’s the minimum standard, for professionalism, at Everton?

Played right in to the RS best easy win options, and spewed the game, from a position of recovery.

Looks inevitable some serious issues, to discuss.

For the rest of this week, at work, but it’s the Hope, that kills you.

I don’t think Rafa was to blame tonight. I do think he was at fault in other games. But if we sack him whose gonna choose his replacement? The DOF whose priority has been a new RB for five years? Same fellow who signed Iwobi? Kenwright whose botched everything he touches for 30 years? Or Mosh who seems to be swayed by every voice he hears? They need to get rid of all of the board. Bring in competent professionals. If they decide Rafa needs to go then so be it but sacking him now just allows the real culprits to buy themselves more time which we can Ill afford

Do me a favour which knowledgeable set of fans would not be gutted by that third goal, both in its timing and the way it came about. Honestly expecting fans to turn poor players into good ones is as ridiculous as thinking that Seamus could win young player of the year.

Nothing wrong with the commitment of players or fans tonight, but the truth is that the team is woefully short on skill and application, the fans did what they always do, got behind the team until it was obvious that there was little chance of taking anything from the game. Relegation despite tonight's result looks less of a possibility than it did following Sunday's defeat, but the players will have to show the same commitment but with a little more craft to create chances and someone who can take any chances that come along.

The team need a win as soon as possible, but it's anyone's guess which game will provide that welcome 3 points, but if it doesn't happen, please don't blame the fans.

Although I overheard many saying, amidst a barrage of Anglo Saxon expletives, enough is enough, and the Board has to be answerable and do the decent thing. You would need a JCB to get Kenwright out, as he has been given the keys to the Castle and is totally abusing the privilege.

The Gulf in class sadly was in evidence tonight and I doubt whether the RS have spent as much as we have in the process, or if they have, at least they have spent wisely, and that clearly shone through.

Must win v Arsenal.,else, Goodison will get very toxic, very quick.

I thought we were really in the game, through hard work and effort, until Coleman got caught in two minds, and that mistake took the wind out of our sails, both on and off the pitch.

I think we now have a back four with only Godfrey, who is really good enough defensively, and even he is still very naive, but at least he shows the necessary aggression that’s required.

I also want to give Benitez time, even if some people say he’s yesterday’s man, because when I listen to him speaking about Everton, he makes a lot of sense to me, and I honestly think it’s in other areas of the club, were people should be losing their jobs, and personally think Everton are struggling right now, because we have some players currently on the pitch who are just plainly not good enough, unfortunately.

Agree 100% the change should have been Tosun. Gordon came on and went left, then right. No idea why stretching our shape could be anything but a bad idea. I think we all knew the result before it kicked off. Confidence is low. Richarlison looked dejected.

I thought also the tactics were all wrong. We played way too high a defensive line, especially if our forwards didn't press high either. Such a big hole in our midfield.

Next game l will have a few more whiskys. On a side note there were 3 rows of young lids in front of me, all smoking away. Thought it was poor of our fans throwing all the bottles. Feel sorry for Seamus too. We need bodies in January, so l hope the master plan of releasing so many players in the summer means we can see that plan take some shape.

The running of Everton, in my view is rotten to the core.

I’ll stand and believe in Everton, till I die, but after tonight, the start of the new beginning, must be soon.

“Whats Our Name?”

Chelsea, Liverpool and City aside, everyone else is beatable and there to take points off if we can find some desire and belief from somewhere.

I'll be honest, I just wanted this one out of the way so I can try to look forward. It has to come to an end one way or another. Hopefully that is through results rather than more managerial upheaval whilst the decision makers remain untouched. I think we all see the common denominator. The board room.

In addition to needing better players. Scratched record, but Ancelotti, Benitez, whoever. We need better players. My sound bite from last season.

Angry son. Depressed brother. Indifferent me. I expected this as much as the inevitability of the City result.

Happy clappers. That has a familiar ring about it. Must have been borrowed from a previous poster about another manager.

Wound licking time for a few days then look forward to turning it around at the next one.

Danny, a younger Evertonian, asked me before the game was I nervous, and my reply was that Liverpool can’t hurt me anymore than they’ve already done in my lifetime. That’s still the case after tonight, which doesn’t mean there are not a lot of very fuckin angry Evertonians out there after that result, and if changes are not made somewhere within the club very soon, I expect that anger to grow a lot worse, very fast.

Pay Kenwright and Brands off, leaches!
Milking us left right and centre.
Why is Brands on the board?

Rafa deserves more time, injuries are over and above the norm, however, if I was a fringe player I’d be up for it.

If and god forbid if, give DF the job now until the end of the season.

Maybe line Frank Lampard up to take over if we are still in the premier league!!!

Kenwright and Brands have too go, no and, ifs or buts.

Usmanov would sort it. He may be thinking twice if it wasn’t for Bradley Moore Dock?

If Kenwright and Brands had any decency they would both walk tomorrow
They haven’t so they should both be sacked

Trying to drag ourselves away from the bottom should be the only aim this season
Someone has to come in and turn this Club upside down starting with the jobs for the boys brigade

Coleman has been a great servant but comparing him to Alexander Arnold it’s sad to watch the decline despite his hard graft. Keane needs to be replaced by a leader. Doucoure looked unfit. Allan is atrocious on the ball and honestly believe he’s been one of the worst players this season. Gray was our most effective player. Townsend grafts but he’s a squad player.

More importantly I don’t see any plan. There’s no identity. Individual players pressed like headless chickens compared to Liverpool who had a field day.

I honestly feel hopeless. I don’t see recruitment changing and when Rafa eventually gets fired the poor bloke who comes in will inherit this shambles and we have no money to change it. Even if we did I don’t trust us to get it right.

We should’ve gotten Moyes, sacked brands and left Moyes in charge of transfers. He bought players who grafted for this club and whilst we might not have been top four, we’d have a team atleast.

The third goal which was self inflicted took the fight completely out of Everton and the players, everyone of them, showed then that they knew the game was over with their slumped shoulders and dejected faces clear to most.

Liverpool’s fourth goal was the signal for many fans to make their way home and the rest of us most probably felt like going with them but endured the last few minutes glad that Liverpool never added to their score.

Those twenty minutes showed there is some fight in a few players but still no leader on the field tonight and doubt if there is one in the squad, to shake the rest of them up, but that’s what we are desperate for at the moment along with three or four players in January.

Never ceases to amaze me the old chestnut about the fans. It was the fans who stopped Ross from showing his talent … I guess no one realized Villa Chelsea and England would have fans too. When the fans are quiet the players aren’t motivated, when the fans are noisy the players get nervous. Well last year there were no fans and the team was as shit as ever

Are we the only club that is run like this.

Life long Blue Bill making Boris look like a brain surgeon.
A prestigious dof imposter buying Iwobi
A billionaire who is getting his fingers severely burned by people that are charlatans. Taking as much money as they can and mugging him off.

The managerial appointment is the icing on the cake. It's a pure piss take

The result tonight was expected. The premier League is very much like the Scottish or Spanish league. The top teams are forming their own mini league and are far superior to the rest.

Mistakes happen and decide games. We had a few glaring mistakes that killed any momentum we had. I thought Pickford had a typical game for him. Great saves followed by poor decisions, not coming our to clear for their 2nd.
Coleman's mistake took away any chance we had and he knew it.

I have got to the point now where I just want the manager gone. Yes he is an ex red shite but we can't accept the manner of these defeats.

We need some pride back. I just have no trust whatsoever in the club hierarchy making a right decision.

I would have Ferguson, Rooney or Potter at the club in a heartbeat.

At what point does the manager get sacked. We where only 1 player short of our best team tonight.

This is EFC.

Heads must roll, but short term Vs Arsenal how will that help...and that's were help is required, we need 3pts badly.

Arsenal aren't that shit hot now and have a tendency to sometimes not travel well.
But it would take a Big Dunc / Chelsea type effort to do them over...not holding my breath.

Not one of our players tonight would get near Liverpool’s team. Maybe Pickford as a sub goalie? We have (at best) average players everywhere, and some are dreadful. It’s easy to point to Rondon, I know, but bloody hell - he was vastly improved tonight, he was merely poor.

I don’t think there was any lack of effort tonight, nor against Brentford, there was simply a dearth of ability. So that puts us right up against it. We might hope for a manager to augment his resources, and organise those he has, but our guy has brought in mediocrity, and his own performance has been non-evident - just what has he done tactically or selection-wise to improve anything?

It was painful being at Goodison for all the obvious reasons, but most importantly it was grim because ultimately it was another hapless, heavy defeat and we appear to be heading up shit creek without an appliance to steer us out of it.

We’re in the mess because of piss poor recruitment - Brands, and because of piss poor dinosaur managers - Moshiri.

Every derby I’ve ever been alive for I’ve always thought we had a chance if we play to our best. This is the first one that I thought was inevitable before a ball had been kicked.

Benitez played the fans against the board at Chelsea and Newcastle - it will be the same here. Poor appointment.

My only hope is some astute signings in January; and some further development of potential in the U23s - viz Dobbin, Simms, Warrington. Avoiding relegation is the season's target now.

Nick #148, tell me what time your revolution starts. In fact, what will it look like. If I'm late start without me. Can we have a good breakfast before we start?

Lucky old, useless Rafa.

It's taken five years and half a £billion admittedly, but Moshiri and Kenwright in their skewed minds no doubt feel they've "earned" the right to change the motto.

I saw the same game Dave Abrahams did. Only from the opposite side of the pitch.

It's time now for Benitez to set us up to win, no matter what, we need points. His substitutions are all over the place. We beat them lot last season then fell off a cliff. Maybe this time around it can do the opposite.

From Moshiri's side he did what we always wanted. Got a shovel in the ground and invested a lot of money on the pitch.

These were the things we needed. We absolutely needed them.

What we didn't need was to be so amateurish in our transfer dealings. We spent on everyone we could, in any position, for any playing style. Everton's transfer spend over the last few years is the great missed opportunity.

Moshiri needed a football man in there. He got one in Brands. How the hell is that man still drawing a salary?

Moshiri is accountable for everything, but he's also the only one who has a driver to actually put things right to protect his investment. If I'm Moshiri I'm ripping this club apart. Every hanger on can go. Invest wages in those positions before you start thinking about investing any more on the pitch. Because his current charges will just waste it.

"Awful" Keane is top five in the league in interceptions, blocks, clearances and headed clearances. That's about effort.

Eleven guys who couldn't come close to making the other team's bench kept it a respectable game for a while. That's about effort.

Nobody can convince me these players aren't trying their best. Or that Benitez isn't coaching them up to the best of his ability.

What's wrong with the club is simple.

Not enough talent.

And the blame for that doesn't fall on the pitch. Or the touchline.

Brands is either collecting a fortune each paycheque to let someone else do his job… or he's just plain useless at it.

I didn't want him at the beginning but, other than issues with some of his substitutions, he's not doing much wrong.

I wondered if this was an omen, a weather report, or a comment on the match as, only last week, Optus announced they had signed up to show the Premier League for the next 6 years… Or was it a sign of things to come.

So I rang them and their answer was that they no longer had the rights and it appears no English football is broadcast in Australia. Same for you, Bob Parrington, Laurie Hartley, Phil Sammon?

However, if the Board is to be replaced, and it should be, then the manager has to go as well. If those supporting him say that nobody could do anything with these, players then why the hell is he here? It is fairly obvious that Benitez has little if any idea how to improve them at least to avoid relegation which is starting to look like a foregone conclusion.

Who would replace him? Does it matter? As long as he has what this one doesn't – some ideas!

Oh my god – we've just been mocked by RS at our ground chanting this gobshite's name! Every player is getting worse anyone could do a better job. He is a loser, a fucking Kopite in charge of our club, and he is sending us south.

Yesterday's man, unbelievable… Benitez Out Now!!

Mike, tackles mean fuck-all if you give the ball away constantly; Allan is abysmal.

Seeing Klopp dance around and fist punching when the 4th went in was just too much for me to take – I switched the iPad off.

Many pertinent points made on this thread but these two stick out for me:-

Dave Abrahams # 141 - "Those 20 minutes showed there is some fight in a few players but still no leader on the field tonight and I doubt if there is one in the squad to shake the rest of them up, but that's what we are desperate for at the moment along with three or four players in January."

Ernie Baywood # 161 - "Everton's transfer spend over the last few years is the great missed opportunity."

When was the last time we had a proper Captain? I know Seamus loves the club but he is not the leader on the pitch that Dave is on about. A man who will lead and the rest willingly follow? I say you have to go back at least 8 years to Phil Neville.

We have been through managers so quickly, none of them have had the chance to bring in their own man, and the way things are looking at the moment, Benitez may not get that chance. To be honest, I had doubts but have supported him since he was appointed. Those doubts have resurfaced… Perhaps it is just a case of him being the wrong fit.

The upside, as Dave said, is that we have got a few players with fight in them – but we need a few more. They don't have to be world-beaters either. Just willing to part with a bit of blood and snot because, make no bones about it, that is what it is going to take for us to win the fight we are now facing.

Ernie – there in a nutshell is the reason why Kenwright, Barrett-Baxendale, and Brands should be sacked – they were in charge of that debacle. I wouldn't hesitate if it was my money they had wasted.

Moshiri has nothing to lose and everything to gain with that one move. It would send shivers down the corridors of the Liver Building and Finch Farm. Moshiri needs to replace them with a business change manager and a couple of real football men who know what we are about.

For 60 years I have followed this team. We are well and truly in the trenches this time, fellas.

Alan #165 – Optus Sport subscription $15 per month via iTunes. You can watch it on an iPad or, if you have a smart TV, it will have the Optus Sport App also.

Hi Alan. I have the Optus App on my TV and on my phone. I think somebody at Optus is having you on, mate. They definitely still broadcast every Premier League game. 7:15am kick off this morning though so I was at work, thank god.

If I am an arsonist who puts out the most fires, would you award me a fireman of the month award?

Shit system and shite training (same fast-paced passing game) that means we constantly give the ball away and invite teams onto us. The effort is there, the system is not. FSW is the biggest problem. Brands not finding pace at right-back the second biggest. Both should go.

Optus Sport's app has every game live. $15 or free if you have an Optus mobile.

If you need any help setting up, reach out. I'm sure we'll find a way to connect.

Actually, might be better not to at the moment! But I'll leave it with you.

I can't see much changing in January other than maybe a couple of loan deals. So whoever is in charge then will have to try and get a tune from this ramshackle squad.

The changes needed off the pitch in the boardroom, while still necessary, won't change the immediate short-term crisis. Pretty bleak really.

I'm not sure Benitez is either of the people in your analogy.

He's no arsonist (that issue rests above him), and he's not putting out many fires from my viewpoint.

Actually, maybe he's the flames. A symptom of the real issue, not the cause or the solution.

Blame or not, I'd get rid. Terrible appointment. Who thought that was a good idea?

Pickford can't be beaten that easily for the 4th at his near post either from that angle.

A big mess at the moment, they look shell-shocked pretty much all game. A lot cannot handle the pressure nor are they good enough – Allan, Rondon, Keane, Coleman, Digne et al.

Garbage… and it's been coming for years.

Thank you for that. Also add that he has nothing to spend, the only money he spent was on Demarai Gray, £1.7M. The others were intended squad players that were signed free.

Who spent the £492M in the last 5 years that has not improved the first team better than what it was? Walsh and Brands are 100 times more culpable for this current predicament. Along with total disinterested and aloof charlatans like Ronald Koeman.

Only about 25% actively wanted Benitez and I on balance wasn't one of them. But to make him a focus point for the blame and vitriol when he has spent nothing, he is trying to juggle other people's mistakes, he is trying to win games when players are making fundamental schoolboy errors.

All this compounded by our crucial goalscorer having been injured for 3 months and our best centre-back having missed far too many games due to being over-used by Colombia, along with our best midfielder, Doucouré, being out for 2 months...

Benitez is not an innocent party as he can be criticised too, but a sense of fair proportioning of blame has to be considered.

Benitez has come in though and is trying his best to take on the status quo at the club. He has brought in improvements to the training, medical and recovery team. He is trying to implement a framework of improvements behind the first team; these improvements, given time, will filter into us being a more organised and professional outfit. Consistency (remember that?) will be born out of it.

Given time, they will be the important first steps away from being run like Arkwright's General Stores under Bill Kenwright's sub-amateur, too many years, tenure. Why is this bastion of mediocrity still here?

As Mike said and Danny O'Neill and others often say: "Not Enough Talent."

Change the manager and the same players will still be there, the same DoF, the same CEO, the same hangers-on. The old system of cronyism and mediocrity will have won. Rather there will be even more dysfunction and disarray in the club, perhaps to a catastrophic degree.

We all want the best for the club, and there are very loud voices from very angry and disappointed fans. I feel the pain too in my blood, flesh and bones, literally.

Whatever the outcome, I just pray it is best for the club long-term. Short-term cathartic actions may feel good for a few weeks, but then what?

My point being, when you give the ball away as much as we do, it's only natural you make lots of tackles, and it is no indicator of good performance and effort. Lies, damn lies, and statistics, etc.

Agree with your post though, to have Kopites singing our manager's name whilst battering us in the derby was sickening. Just imagine he takes us down and it stops the stadium. What a colossal risk the board have taken. They have risked whatever pride we had left.

The only hope is for change at board level, either in personnel or approach. Ideally both.

I wrote of the players' effort and cited statistical evidence to support it. That's it.

Their lack of overall effectiveness is self-evident... although your repetitive, insight-bereft recitation of the self-evident as if it were some stunning revelation makes you a serious contender for the title of Chief Nattering Nabob of Negativity.

I assume you missed the last 7 games.

You read my commentary against the FSW as being negative, whilst people with more than half a brain cell will realise it is actual positive ambition to want to do and achieve more.

The club is in its worst run for 22 years. Rafa isn't the cause of the all the issues, just the latest contributory factor, and a major one. Try opening your mind to ambition instead of clinging to desperate statistics and then attacking those who pull your pants down on them.

Behind the scenes, he may well be reorganising things for the better but, as relegation becomes a real possibility, is he capable of inspiring and orchestrating this squad to pull out of this nosedive? From what I've seen, I would say No.

It was a particularly unexciting appointment and the dumbness of hiring a guy with his history just illustrates how little the owner knows about our club. We all knew this could happen.

As Mike Gaynes points out, we need better quality but, in the Premier League, there are other teams (Brentford, for exampe) with less quality but they either seem to be set up better or have more belief in their tactics.

Last night was crying out for a three-man midfield with Delph helping out Allan and Doucouré. A damage-limitation strategy that may or may not have worked. To go 4-4-2 was madness, asking for trouble and, let's be honest, the first 20 minutes coild have seen us four or five down. All on the manager.

The team grafted and there are glimmers of hope with Gray and Richarlison. I simply don't trust Rafa to suddenly get his strategy right and instill confidence in this bunch of average Joes. If we delay, we will be in even more of a crisis. I just don't see him getting us out of the mire.

Arsenal on Monday is a big game. With the fixture list looking worrying, this is a must-win game.

Benitez isn't playing anything less negative than Ancelotti, but he's definitely working these players harder, and good luck with the ones trying to find new clubs, and also good riddance.

We all have different opinions: mine is I'd only really want to keep Godfrey, Doucouré, Gray, Townsend, (for his attitude) and Calvert-Lewin, and maybe Mina, if he could stay fit.

If the club hasn't got any money for the first team, Pickford and Richarlison, would be our best sellable assets, and maybe Lucas Digne, who currently looks lost.

I think we urgently need a good central defender to play alongside Godfrey; I thought he showed a lot of desire last night. And we need another energetic midfield player to play alongside Doucouré, and we need Calvert-Lewin back as soon as possible, because right now, the spine from back to front, is simply nowhere near good enough.

Re your post at #162...
"That's about effort. Nobody can convince me these players aren't trying their best.
What's wrong with the club is simple. Not enough talent."

Mike, for what it's worth, I understood your point exactly. A comment on effort (as a response to posts saying "no effort") not a comment on effectiveness. Maybe you could have made that distinction – ah, you did!!

I take your point about recovery. I'll add young Godfrey to that list. Makes some great blocks – usually because he's been caught stranded on the hal-fway line. He makes some odd decisions. It's sad that I'm just happy to see someone have a go.

Luckily I work with two Blues and a Warrington Rugby League fan so I'm okay but town is full of LFC day trippers with full kit on. As you said, probably never been to a game in their lives.

2 points from a possible 24, the worst run in 22 years, selecting Rondon and Iwobi, playing 4-4-2 against Liverpool, demented substitutions. It's now a question of what has he done right.

He might have been relevant once, but now he is simply an Iberian Mike Bassett.

Can you identify what Kenwright has done in the last 5 years that has had a greater detrimental effect on the team's current plight than the hiring of substandard managers and the substandard recruitment on astronomical wages?

If not, kindly redact your “idiot” statement please.

Please note, I think Kenwright should be replaced as chairman and an actual businessman appointed for the long-term commercial success of the club, but I fail to see how he is the main man responsible for the last 5 years of decline.

Everyone needs to get behind the team on Monday, regardless of how useless they and individual players are or the manager's often bizarre selections and substitutions. In times of crisis, we need to pull together. Accounts can hopefully be settled once survival has been achieved.

What's really needed then is a full (and open) forensic investigation into who was actually responsible for what over the Moshiri era, especially in scouting, recruitment and contracts. Not learning from your mistakes is the best way of ensuring they are repeated.

Kenwright owning Everton was definitely like putting a silk-suit on a pig, especially with Moshiri asking “What do I know about the football business?” which was definitely music to the ears of “Our Saviour”.

Calmly and well said.

The phrase "Shooting the messenger" comes to mind when I see some of the venom unjustly directed at Benitez.

I think most of us feel the same, mate, and I don't think the blame should lie solely with Benitez either, but his intransigence when it comes to even giving the youngsters a cameo role when all else seems futile and a repeat of the game before and the game before that etc. does raise questions.

Maybe last night was not the night to blood these youngsters though, after we were embarrassingly being mauled in our own Lion's Den, with their senior counterparts seemingly unable to offer anything by way of resistance, or even show a great deal of commitment or effort.

Something has to happen and soon, starting with a complete Colonic Irrigation of the Boardroom. Also, have Dyno-Rod on standby in case there is any signs of survival from the guilty few.

"Something has to happen and soon, starting with a complete Colonic Irrigation of the Boardroom. Also, have Dyno-Rod on standby in case there is any signs of survival from the guilty few."

Love it, awesome!

But lately I've suggested that, given Rondon's appalling showings (though he did things last night I've not seen him do for us before!) maybe we could see at least more than a few minutes at the end of a game for the likes of Dobbin – not starting a game, but more than 2 or 3 minutes at the end.

Dobbin is really fast and might, just might, put a slow, tiring defence on the back foot. And I think he'd have more of a chance of getting on some of the low crosses into the box that Rondon struggles to get to (a pace thing again).

Having said that, while Dobbin had a cracking pre-season for the U23s, with goals left, right and centre, his more recent U23 performances have been mixed.

Horses sweat; men perspire; women glow.

I detected a bit of a glow from Rondon last night.

As you know, a few of us do try to watch as many of the Academy games available to view as possible. Of those that do, I haven't seen anyone nominating any youngster as a standout who should be given his first-team chance. There is no Rooney, or even Barkley-level, type of player banging down the door.

Take your example of Lewis Dobbin. Just last week in the U-23s game v Brighton, he had a dominant first half. Had their entire defence on toast. But then, was totally anonymous for the second half.

I agree, they need to be gradually exposed to the first team with meaningful minutes, not a token 2-3 minutes in the dying embers of a game to run down the clock. The problem with that currently is we have not been in a 'comfort zone' for two months in which the manager (and most of them are risk averse) could play a youngster for 15-20 minutes.

It's a real dilemma all round. We really don't have any standout candidates worthy of their chance in the first team and so poor are our current results and performances, it could be considered reckless to believe blooding them would be the elixir to our current ills.

We where a lot more compact under Ancelotti and well drilled from set pieces.

Benitez plays a 4 man midfield regardless of the opposition which more or less concedes the battle in the middle of the park in every game.

Ancelotti had more options with guile than Benitez has. Rodriguez, Sigurdsson and Bernard have been replaced with Gray.

Benitez isn't stupid. Listen out in January for very similar comments from his Newcastle days. Blaming the board for lack of investment etc.

Last year we got a draw and beat the shite at their place. Last night was as big a gulf in class during a Derby game that I can remember. It could have been 3 before they scored the first.

Last year Ancelotti took stick on here even when we where in the top 6. Why isn't Benitez taking the same shit?

I don't get it.

Worst home Derby defeat in 40 years!
And it's not the managers fault!
We are only short of DCL. Surely people are running out of excuses for him.

At what point does the manager come under scrutiny?

Listening to that shower last night loving every moment is soul destroying.

We need to restore some pride though I don't have any faith in anyone at the club to make the right decision.

We are back to knives at gun fights. Gross mismanagement of the highest order from top to bottom.

I know some Evertonians dislike it when older posters hark back to the past and say just how long they have been "Suffering". Today age is relevant as I remember as a 13 year old when we lost 6-0 to Sheff W and were relegated in 1951- 52. We were "crap" with a capital "C" but we came back and I am still a supporter today. Some brief notes to my fellow Blues because I do understand your frustrations.I also read "ALL" posts.

Danny O'neil (136)...as ALWAYS, a shining light amidst the gloom
Sean Lyon (92) a sensible response. Honest but realistic.
Tony Adams (186) accep[table suggestions as he usually has. Long time supporter who knows ther game and even in tough times stays on board.
John Kavanagh (186) Disappointed, annoyed but still logical and ready for the visit of Arsenal. Still "BLUE"

BUT we still have:

Nick Page (150) your ANGER is understandable but why call a fellow Evertonian an "Idiot" because he has the nerve to disagree with you. Do you have to win in the "ANGER " game. We are all just as unhappy as you are.

Finally Andrew Hight (132) You are one of the very few who is no longer an Evertonian. Understand your ire but who will you now support. Sunderland, Derby, Grimsby are all possible. But why not "The RS". After all they have had nearly sixty years years of luck and support from many who have never stepped a foot in Liverpool and never will. Or why not try to get New Brighton back in league football.You could be the New owner. I will personally back your venture.

The fish rots from the head down. Last night wasn't unexpected by anyone who supports Everton. Everyone knew a beat down was coming. What's concerning is that in years past, when we were in a rut, we knew we had the quality to dig ourselves out.

Where's the quality now? First eleven? Perhaps but when several are injured, then we are seriously lacking. For me, our only hope is getting everyone healthy, and getting at least one or two QUALITY players in January, and kicking on from there.

In our current state, we WILL lose to Newcastle (don't forget, they did the double over us last season), Burnley, and other relegation battlers.

I think ToffeeWeb has settled into three groups now: optimists, pessimists, and nihilists.

The optimists have two sub groups. The older, wiser "We've lived through worse," and the younger optimists who are actually the angriest of all because they cling to false hope that "there's a good player in there somewhere," "play the youngsters," "Give Big Dunc the job," and they're angry the club won't take what they perceive to be the last magic roll of the dice.

The Pessimists who think the season is already over, or virtually done and relegation is inevitable and probably bankruptcy.

Then we have the nihilists who are like those family members who show up at the gangsters funeral out of loyalty but with a "he brought it on himself" kind of attitude. Nothing we can do can make any difference. What's the point of it all?

I am hovering between group 1,A (the old timers -- albeit it vicariously) and the nihilists.

GRIEF AWARENESS WEEK
People can experience a wide range of emotions after a loss. There’s no right or wrong way to feel. It can be an unpredictable time and people can feel anger, numbness, denial and exhaustion.

Welcome to Everton!

His hands are tied - the mess is with the players in my view, and on a larger scale, the board for buying a pile of rubbish and spending half a billion quid on them in the process.

Changing managers every year is killing us even more. We have to stick with Benitez.

Bobby, I can understand the point your making, and the Rashford example is a good one. I feel the urge myself at times! But then I think, if we played one or two of the U23s from the START of a game and they have a bad game, then we face the dilemma of how many games we persist with them before, possibly, deciding it was a bad idea...

To play them for only a game or two before ditching the idea would open up the criticism that they hadn't been given enough games to adapt and to step up their game. Conversely, persisting for many a game while losing (if we did) would do their confidence no good, would have the crowd on their backs (also confidence-sapping - look at Anthony Gordon's body language at the reception the players got at the end of the Brentford game); and might be hindering us from getting back into winning ways.

BENITEZ OUT!

Ok, I'll go read some of this...

Wow, that is some good action for less than 250. I like Mike's side of that no surprise. It gets to some other criticisms that were directed at Godfrey as well. We don't have the players for the covering midfielders and CBs to be solely focused on positioning for their man. They have to be looking for Digne or Coleman to get beat That can rack up some ugly replays that are rather unflattering and can stick in people's minds. Although I am still wondering about Allan's form on attempting to block Henderson at the D but I digress.

Also, we have to consider that we don't have enough to switch it up when someone is the focus of film day prep for the opposition. If we had more then when teams move to limit Townsend's movement we can deploy a countertactic to take advantage. Our play is too simple because we don't have enough options and it tends to get shut down easily.

I'd say that calling someone's well reasoned point a crock of shit is a risky proposition that requires some homework or specific knowledge.

Gary, you holding any cards here???

How you can go from being an Evertonian to not being one is beyond me, even in the darkest times. And this is yet to be one of them for me.

An alien thought I cannot comprehend or entertain. It can't leave you. It's not possible.

Kieran - I like your categorisations!

Lynn, I trump your husband's email with the one I woke up to very early this morning, still suffering from Jet Lag and football depression. As I squinted at the phone, a reminder from Everton that the 35% discount offer at the online store was still on!!

Their timing, as always, was as good as a similar email I received from them 24 hours after Brentford.

Monday and then Palace on the horizon as well as a Leicester team not firing on all cylinders. Points are there if we want them. Wake up and go and get them Everton.

My wife so often tells me there are far bigger things to worry about. She is probably right but in my mind, right now, I can't think of ANYTHING.

Yeah, there's no magic wand to fix any of this but my point was merely that chopping & changing managers isn't going to fix anything. My point has been proven over the last 5 managers!

I'm not sticking up for Benitez, and perhaps my post has been misinterpreted somewhat, but the point stands - we've had a ton of injuries to a squad that was already a mish-mash of players from previous managers and Benitez was given fuck all in the way of money or support from the club so he's working with his hands tied.

What do you want, another Allardyce reshuffle? What could another manager possibly do with this mess of a squad, and all our injuries to key players? I don't see anyone on here with a sensible answer or solution so why change? Who do we change to? Pick me a manager that is going to overhaul and fix all our problems. Who wants the job? Who's available? Steve Bruce? Allardyce?

Surely you see what I'm getting at here. The past proves the point. Changing managers every season or 18 months does nothing but screw up the squad and leaves us going backwards over & over again.

Moshiri has consistently made the wrong choices but Benitiez is not the reason we're 15th or whatever we are now.

Get Potter in ASAP.

The main reason I pointed out the year we went down was, if it was 1951-52, some fans might have pointed out that this season 2021-22 was exactly 70 years since we last went down, but of course we won't go down anyway!!