Some commentators, ex-footballers, and even some Evertonians are saying a 10-point deduction is okay… Everton will be okay. There are three or four worse teams in the Premier League who are not going to gain much more than 30 points.

They have to be joking.

I heard Roy Keane ask “Why don't they just take the medicine?” I find this insulting. As if he would have been okay with something equivalent when at Manchester United.

Do they really think Luton Town, Sheffield Utd and Burnley are just going to lie down and settle for relegation, are not going to try and boost their teams' chances in the January window, and haven't received a massive boost and incentive, by Everton receiving a 10-point deduction, and won't be doing everything they can to stay up?

Do some Evertonians think that the referees and VARs will be spot-on with their decisions from now on?  If they do, they are fools.

I will say right now that I am worried about Sunday's game. I am worried about us scoring and supporters running on the pitch, what action will the Premier League take? And I'm even more worried about what will happen if a bad decision is given against us and supporters run on the pitch, or a missile is thrown, what action will be taken then?

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Some people are also going over the top about our form. There has been a slight improvement, mainly away from home, that is all… and the picture can soon change. If Man Utd beat us on Sunday, where does that leave us?

So I am not getting carried away with the 'Dogs of War' narrative or anything else – we have a hard but just battle with the Premier League ahead of us.

The true reality is that our position is now perilous. The Premier League have deliberately put us in a position that could easily get out of control, and that includes financially too.

This is why for other clubs – West Ham Utd, Leicester City, Spurs, Chelsea, Man City etc – the punishment has always been a fine or nothing at all. The Premier League know a 10-point deduction can be a fatal blow for numerous reasons.

This independent commission was just like VAR. If it had been Liverpool, it would have been a fine.

It was a £19.5M discretion with mitigating circumstances that could have been allowed but the commission chose otherwise. Were they under orders from the Premier League: find them guilty with a big points deduction?

Public opinion hasn't gone the way they had hoped so they have now asked their media pals to say 5 or 6 points would be fair, hoping public opinion will go with that.

I have listened to all the arguments, read the commission's judgment, read Paul The Esk's summary, and Lyndon's inciteful opinion on the commission's independence and fairness and, I don't see where the hell anyone could come up with a points deduction, not when you compare Everton's crime with other clubs' crimes, notably the 'Breakaway 6'.

Like most Evertonians probably I guess Everton ended up in this mess because Bill Kenwright was chairman.

I can imagine Bill sitting in a London Hotel lobby a couple or so years ago having a drink and chat with a Premier League official he mistook for a friend and, when asked the question, the official said, “Don't worry, Bill, so long as you hand in all your books and are transparent and work with us, you will be fine.” The trap was set and he fell straight into it.

How naive can you be to trust the Premier League and not keep as much as you can from them? And the people who might know what happened have left and are saying nothing.

When it came to a signing like Amadou Onana, I would bet my house that there was a phone call on deadline day and a Premier League official said, “Not a problem; you can sign him.” How on earth can you be conducting transfer business on deadline day when in the position we were in??? It beggars belief.

And when the independent commission was appointed, the Premier League would have said, “Sorry, Bill, there's nothing we can do now, it's out of our hands.”

The Premier League wanted a decision last season when a small points deduction would have seen us doomed; it didn't happen. So the Premier League, in their frustration at seeing Everton remain in the Premier League, demanded a 12-point deduction for this season that even the not-so-independent commission baulked at. 

Everyone at Everton need to drop the idea that, if the points deduction is reduced, it will be acceptable, because it isn't. What Everton need more than anything else now is a really good lawyer and we must be ready to take the Premier League to court. No points deduction and a fine is the only fair outcome.

The punishment must fit the crime. The Breakaway 6, the West Ham Tevez incident were more serious and only fines were imposed and Leicester made the same mistake and only received a fine.

And I honestly believe that no other club will receive a points deduction, the Premier League are after Everton, that is it.

We are in the middle of a fight for our lives and we must drop the 'being nice' approach, it hasn't and it doesn't get us anywhere. It is time to fight hard and, if we have any shit on the Premier League, we need to use it.

We can start with the Breakaway 6. A small fine for teams going behind the back of the Premier League forming a new competition knowing it might have ruined the Premier League.

“We must not punish the fans” – yeah, very sincere, wasn't it?

And the silence from Liverpool Football Club is deafening. Everton stood shoulder to shoulder with Liverpool over Heysel and when the Hillsborough tragedy happened. Evertonians to this day will not buy The Sun or have anything to do with the Murdoch media. I went to Anfield to pay my respects to the fans who died almost immediately and have also been back to the memorial they built.

But here we are in Everton's darkest moment and Liverpool are silent. I find it disgusting. All they are concerned about is using the moment to go after Man City. No mention of the punishment City should receive for being a Breaway 6 club though… With friends like Liverpool, you don't need enemies.

Never has the philosophy 'divide and conquer' been so apt.

The irony: The Toffee TV lads won't go on TalkSport to speak up for Everton because they are still supporting Liverpool with the Murdoch media boycott.

We need to ask why have the Premier League been so hard on us? What is their motivation when clearly they are not keen to go after anyone else?

Why for the last two to three seasons have refereeing and VAR decisions been so blatantly against us? We thought it might be because Everton spoke out about the 'Breakaway 6'. This might have gone some way but are we naive to think it is the only reason? 

Who are the media darlings? Who have the biggest influence on screen and at the Premier League? What club knew the new Everton ground would affect them financially more than any other club? I am just asking the question…

Profitability and Sustainability Rules, in my opinion, were brought in to hamper the lesser clubs' spending; it needs to be scrapped. It is ridiculous and unfair. We can see with the Everton situation that, instead of ensuring clubs don't get into financial trouble, it can result in a club entering financial trouble.

No matter what the result of the appeal is, the club needs to look into what legal action they should take. The independent commission was clearly not independent.

Connections with Leeds, Burnley, West Ham and a directive of a 12-point deduction given by the Premier League makes the notion of independence look comical. Covid mitigation, Ukraine mitigation and Everton going easy on Sigurdsson all being thrown out makes their findings look dodgy.

Everton FC has been around for 145 years. They founded the Football League with a small number of other clubs. They helped form the Premier League. They have played a major role in the success of the Premier League and football in general.

Everton never complained when one of their greatest moments was taken away from them through no fault of their own. The FA and the Premier League have never addressed the fact that Everton were not allowed to play in Europe for at least 4 successive seasons.

Everton make their first-ever transgression because of incompetence that never affected anyone else and receive a record 10-point deduction while six clubs conspire to form a new competition behind the Premier League's back and get away with a fine. You couldn't make it up!

After years and years of hoping, we finally get some money and we are told “You've spent too much, you are in big trouble” – even though we have spent far less than a host of other clubs. It is bizarre.

It would be just, if Everton could be the club that starts the clean-up of a once-great game. But right now, Everton are in this perilous situation and we need the best lawyers we can get to help us.

There are many holes in the commission's judgement that need pointing out, and maybe things Everton originally didn't bring to the table now will be. Everton must do the right things from now on starting with nothing but the best outcome from their appeal.

Beating Man Utd would be a great shot in the arm! So COYB…

We Shall Not Be Moved!


Reader Comments (102)

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David Bromwell
1 Posted 25/11/2023 at 09:46:22
Thank you, Jim, a real good dose of just what is needed. I too cannot believe those who believe we can overcome the 10-point penalty, and your analysis of the team's form coming into this match is spot on in my opinion.

Clearly we have been treated harshly and the Premier League have made an ugly mess of the whole business. We have to appeal, and it's critical that we all, club, players and most definitely supporters, behave responsibly.

You are absolutely right: currently, the sporting press are backing us and most even-minded people would think we have been singled out for an excessive punishment. We need public opinion to stay with us and tomorrow and like it or not we will be The Peoples Club.

If all goes well, our momentum will grow and the pressure on the Premier League will increase. Remembering we are in a war for our survival and we may not win all the individual battles but we must remain determined in our fight for justice.

Les Callan
2 Posted 25/11/2023 at 09:56:11
This is a better email address to vent your feelings:

Danny Baily
3 Posted 25/11/2023 at 09:59:54
It's possible to overcome the points deduction; at this stage last season, 4 points would see us 8 points from safety, with some capable sides around us. This season, it's just 2 points from safety, with some very poor sides around us.

Is it like likely we'll overcome the points deduction? Well, we're fourth favourites for the drop, which isn't a terrible place to be. How much of that is down to the likelihood of the deduction being reduced on appeal is the question?

As things stand, it's hard to plot a path to the 30 or so points we'll likely need. It's all about making as much noise as possible to get this sanction overturned or significantly reduced.

Ged Simpson
4 Posted 25/11/2023 at 10:11:04
Ta for email.

My communication:

"May I register my complaint about the severity of the 10-point deduction on Everton.

Completely over the top on an easy target.

No PL self-protection here?

Seems you misjudged public and media opinion. Everton supported all across country it seems.

You may not be aware, but to most fans the creation of PL was one of the worst steps in football history.

Everton, I hear, planning a breakaway league, for a lighter punishment."

Jim Wilson
5 Posted 25/11/2023 at 10:20:41
Nice one Ged!
Rob Halligan
7 Posted 25/11/2023 at 10:25:29
Reading various websites, and listening to other fans forums via podcasts etc, it seems they just cannot understand why the club are appealing and we, the fans are protesting. All we hear and read is “You've admitted the charge so take the punishment.”

For fuck's sake, nobody is saying we did no wrong, we all accept the charge; what we don't accept is the severity of the punishment.

As Jim says, the independent commission was not independent, it was a panel made up with people with a vested interest, people who have been involved with clubs in the past who have done wrong, and punished for their wrongdoing.

There were no guidelines, nor any case history for the commission to come to the conclusion of a 10-point deduction. Funny then, that a few days before the verdict was announced, the Premier League come out demanding the harshest penalty possible, a 12-point deduction.

So there you go, David Phillips, there's your guidelines, but to make it look like an independent decision, you reduce it to 10 points, no influence at all received from the Premier League… My Arse!

The Sceptic Six wanted to breakaway from the Premier league, and form a European Super League, all done behind the backs of the Premier League. It's unfair to punish the fans, so we'll fine the clubs involved instead.

I penned an email to the Premier League the other day, asking for a full refund of all the monies spent by Everton fans to away games at Sheffield United, Brentford, West Ham and Crystal Palace (I'm taking these games as the 10 points deducted). After all, why should we be punished for something out of our control?

I came to a figure of over £291k spent by fans for those four games, not even taking into consideration travel costs for three journeys to London.

Do the Premier League think that is fair?

Larry O'Hara
8 Posted 25/11/2023 at 10:33:48
Jim, excellent article
Les Callan
9 Posted 25/11/2023 at 10:41:37
Rob @ 7. Those comments need to be sent to Masters. They sum things up very succinctly.
Kevin Molloy
10 Posted 25/11/2023 at 10:42:09
I'm not that bothered about the ten points, I think we will finish ahead of Luton and the gang come what may. That's not where the danger is. The danger (and it's existential) is that the PL have confirmed we gained a competitive advantage when we claimed a deduction which we weren't entitled to on our ledger. this view is lethal. It's also complete bollocks. Imagine if we'd gone over their self imposed deadline by £1m, according to their logic we'd be in exactly the same position. We finished fourth bottom twice, the ears of the teams finishing third bottom will have leapt up at that. The PL have placed a £100m bounty on our head, and at a time when we were negotiating a sale which if it doesn't go through, places the club in real danger of going into administration.

The question therefore becomes, 'why did they do it'. Like Roy Keane, I think they genuinley don't understand the thin ice we are on. they just knew they wanted to impose a points deduction and so they looked around and found a comparable case in the FL. But of course the FL is not the PL. All the teams in the FL are on roughly the same money, and so 'competitive advbantage' has an actual meaning. Here, we've not been able to spend a brass farthing during the time we 'gained an advantage' whilst our rival Nottingham Forest spent this summer alone about 150millin. the whole thing is totallly absurd.

In terms of what happens now, I suspect the Pl is quietly in panic mode. It's bitten off more than it can chew, it doesn't want to see us go bust, and it definitely doesn't want to lock horns with city. I reckon we will see an attempted reverse ferret (quite how, maybe a fast track appeal where they reduce to a suspended sentence)_ let's hope so..

Les Callan
11 Posted 25/11/2023 at 10:48:51
Kevin. Another one that’s needs to be sent to Masters.
Jim Wilson
12 Posted 25/11/2023 at 10:56:43
Great points by Rob and Kevin.

As much as it would still annoy me I would take a suspended points deduction. And an apology from the Premier League for their outrageous behaviour!

Rob Halligan
13 Posted 25/11/2023 at 11:15:04
Les, I will probably do that.
Pete Neilson
14 Posted 25/11/2023 at 11:33:52
That's Roy Keane the fully paid-up Sky shrew. The same guy who quit United because he appealed against his own fine for his rant on United TV.

Typical "do as I sa,y not as I do." He's irrelevant.

Rob Halligan
15 Posted 25/11/2023 at 11:36:24
Les, you've me going now. I've just sent the following to Richard Masters…

Dear Mr Masters,

By now, I am sure that you have received many emails from various people, complaining about the punishment the Premier League decided to hit Everton Football Club with.

Nobody within the club, nor the fans themselves, are saying the club did no wrong, we all accept the charge, what we don't accept is the Severity of the Punishment. The case, and punishment, was heard and decided by an independent commission, which, in my opinion, was not independent, it was a panel made up with people with a vested interest, people who have been involved with clubs in the past who have done wrong, and punished for their wrongdoing.

There was no guidelines, nor any case history for the commission to come to the conclusion of a ten point deduction. Funny then, that a few days before the verdict was announced, the Premier League come out demanding the harshest penalty possible, a twelve point deduction. So there you go, David Phillips, there's your guidelines, but to make it look like an independent decision, you reduce it to ten points, no influence at all received from the premier league.

There were Six clubs that wanted to breakaway from the Premier league, and form an European Super League, which was all done behind the backs of the Premier League. It's unfair to punish the fans, you cry, so we'll fine the clubs involved instead.

I am now asking for a full refund of all the monies spent by Everton fans to away games at Sheffield United, Brentford, West Ham and Crystal Palace, (I'm taking these games as the ten points deducted). After all, why should we be punished for something out of our control? I came to a figure of over £291K spent by fans for those four games, not even taking into consideration travel costs for three journeys to London.

Does the premier league think that is fair?

Dave Abrahams
16 Posted 25/11/2023 at 11:42:51
We have got to fight to get as many points reduced from the 10-point penalty as we can. I wasn't as confident as many fans were that we would climb to complete safety without any points deduction.

We need the small squad to stay fit and keep clear of suspensions as it is never mind points taken off us to add to the problem.

We have to go into the appeal fully prepared – not half-baked as we were when we faced The Commission.

Brian Williams
17 Posted 25/11/2023 at 11:57:42
I think the fairest way to deal with our own, and any future similar indiscretions, is to deduct the 6 points for the fact that that we've broken the rules (which is seemingly what the commission has done), and then be fined for the amount over and above the allowed losses.

6 points and a £19.5M fine would be very palatable to me at the moment.

James Hughes
18 Posted 25/11/2023 at 12:38:49
Pep was akked yesterday if he waas worrried about their 115 charges. He said, "No, it is completely different from Everton's situation."

Well, he's right there. as they are a well-run club with proper lawyers. We have a clown of an accountant who can't explain a P&L account to a bunch of shysters.

He should have been able to run rings them.

Dan Parker
19 Posted 25/11/2023 at 12:59:29
City just scored.

I know it's against the shite but 115 breaches to 1, what an absolute farce. The league lost any credibility it had left with our 10 points stolen.

Rob Halligan
20 Posted 25/11/2023 at 13:01:44
The plane might not have flown over yet.
Dan Parker
21 Posted 25/11/2023 at 13:31:26
Da Plane Da Plane

Us Everton fans today:

Soren Moyer
22 Posted 25/11/2023 at 13:52:10
Exactly. Why would anyone sane accept this punishment?
It's a bloody disgrace. That's what it is.
We should fight it till the bitter end.
John Raftery
23 Posted 25/11/2023 at 13:57:45
Great article Jim. The notion we should quietly accept the ten points deduction is ridiculous although I think we probably have enough in the squad, as it stands, to avoid relegation. January may change that if we lose one of our key players.

I think one of several explanations for Liverpool FC’s silence in this matter is the role Denise Barrett-Baxendale played in developing the proposal for a regulatory body. It would not be surprising if the Premier League and the moneyed clubs were irked by what they saw as her holier than thou attitude while all the while the club for which she was responsible was being grossly mismanaged.

Danny O’Neill
24 Posted 25/11/2023 at 16:09:18
No don't accept it. Fight it.

I obviously do care about us being relegated.

But don't go down without a fight.

Never been in my personal, Everton or Military DNA.


Mark Taylor
25 Posted 25/11/2023 at 16:19:48
We have grounds to appeal the scale of the penalty. The logic (to the extent there is any) for 10 points is challengeable. But I doubt it will be a suspended penalty. I think the best we can hope for is a deduction of around 5 or 6 points.

I have to disagree that our mitigation arguments in the hearings were strong. They were weak, if you read the report. I honestly could not argue against any of the commission's rebuttals.

I also don't think there is any evidence of bias among the commission. The fact they have experience of football through other clubs is neither here nor there. Unless someone has any evidence they have current or very recent contractual arrangements, this is a red herring.

To my surprise, we have got a fair amount of support in the game against the scale of the punishment, sometimes from unexpected quarters. This is potentially powerful PR and we should not risk this by excessive behaviour like pitch invasions etc. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot a second time...

Andy Crooks
26 Posted 25/11/2023 at 16:23:12
Good article. We must get the points reduction cut. We have punched above our weight to get where we are. Our squad is about a 41-point squad, with no injuries. Take 10 off and we are in another nail bitter.

Really don't get those who think the three relegation candidates are so much worse than us, and that our safety is a shoe-in. Tomorrow is, in my view, one of the most important games in our history.

How appalling that we have had three such games in our recent history. We have a fragile group of players. Sean Dyche, your time has come. Here we go!!!

Rob Halligan
27 Posted 25/11/2023 at 16:44:57
There's a massive banner been put up outside the Brick with the wording Where there's power, greed and money……there's Corruption.

And I mean MASSIVE!!

Michael Lynch
28 Posted 25/11/2023 at 16:49:55
Anyone who thinks we should just accept the ten point deduction either hasn't looked at the Premier League table, or is looking forward to watching us play Championship football next season.

We're currently 5 points off safety, and that could be a lot more by turn of the year.

Sure, we've picked up some points recently, but, if we don't get the points deduction removed or at least cut, we are going down.

Barry Rathbone
29 Posted 25/11/2023 at 17:56:55
If the rules and regs dictate a 10- point penalty then we should accept it and crack on – after all we are guilty.

If not, we should argue our case but I have no idea what the rules say.

Paul Ferry
30 Posted 25/11/2023 at 19:21:19
"Sure, we've picked up some points recently, but, if we don't get the points deduction removed or at least cut, we are going down".

That's the spirit, Michael Lynch, on the eve of a titanic game that matters so much for us culturally, socially, politically, and league-wise.

You're in a tiny minority for good reasons: you're wrong and you're not what we need tomorrow. Nor is that sentence in any sense of the word logical and, needless to say, you adopt a passive and dismissive tome to put into words four wins from six.

Hopefully, you'll be sitting in an armchair tomorrow, Michael...

Ricky Oak
31 Posted 25/11/2023 at 19:30:24
Imagine if you will, this horrendous penalty happening to, say, Brentford or Luton. It would be seen as bullying imho, no-one other than the fans of those clubs would care. It would be quietly brushed under the carpet. It would still be seen as bullying.

Dear God, this cannot be allowed to happen to one of the original teams that formed the Football League, Everton, the longest or second-longest team in the top flight.

Stinks of corruption, add to a referee that came out of retirement, for one game,t hen retired again, remember the game, anyone?

Dodgy descions etc, we were back into Europe after the previous nobbling that was bugger all in anyway anything to do with Everton. Enter Collina, for one game... one game... never before or since has this happened.

Really wish I had the ability to write or even express the utter dismay and feelings of victimhood that have no right in my life over something so pure and simple as football.

I can see us getting twatted by Man Utd, I can feel things being manipulated so that the bully boys have us relegated by more than 10 points, to neatly allow them to say, "Well, it really wasn't an abuse of power, see, they lost by 15 points" or whatever.

Apologies, I am negatively affected because after over 33 years of experience, it's undeniably one rule for some… and eat shit n die for others.

Ricky Oak
32 Posted 25/11/2023 at 19:38:47
Paul, apologies brudda, negative myself too.

Simply because Everton are getting or had complete lack of respect for so long now, some of us are sick to death, of fighting to death, dogs of war spirit. It's exhausting and unfair.

Obviously I wish Everton to hammer all and sundry, however, the total disregard with how we are treated, personally I wouldn't be surprised, when we do overcome this bullshit penalty, the powers that be find some other way to cripple us.

Barry Hesketh
33 Posted 25/11/2023 at 20:09:26
The Commission followed the Premier League's unofficial guidance, almost to the letter, yet they argued that they came to the figure of 10 points all of their own accord, without explaining at all, never mind in great detail, how they came to that number.

It's bad enough that we have a 10-point deduction implemented after nearly a third of the fixtures have been played, but we might have to wait until two-thirds or longer of the season to be played to find out if we've been successful in our appeal.

The longer it takes for that appeals commission to sit, the more controversial their final decision will be, even if it sticks to the original stance to dock Everton 10 points.

If things go well for Everton out on the pitch, we might already be safe via our own efforts and therefore the 10 points will seem meaningless, however, and much more likely, if we are still in or around the Bottom 3, every point that the commission might deduct from the original 10 will be very precious and will have our fellow relegation battlers up in arms.

The Premier League should have had a timetable in place for all eventualities, appeal panel dates and compensation panel dates should have been firmly set in the calendar, regardless of the outcome of the original Commission's findings.

As it is, we might have to wait until mid-December to find out when the appeal hearing takes place and I guess, just because it's the usual mode of operations, that the next hearing will be held during March, when the next round of International games take place.

At that point, there will be only 9 or 10 games left to complete this season's fixtures and, unless Everton are relatively safe from relegation at that time, that appeal could have far-reaching influence on the end-of-season table, not that the current decision hasn't already had an adverse influence on Everton both psychologically and physically.

What the 10-point decision almost certainly guaranteed was that Everton would appeal, and therefore have the uncertainty continue deep into the season. Had the deduction been between 3-6 points, the club may well have thought, sod it, we'll give it a go, at least we know where we are now, we'll just get on with it.

All of the above doesn't even take into consideration the guilty decision from last week and the fact that it opened the door to financial compensation for clubs who feel they have lost out to Everton on the sporting front.

I can't help but feel that last Friday's decision was such a terrible outcome for Everton on all fronts, sporting and financial, and no matter what happens on appeal, it will be a decision that haunts the club, we hope only for this season, but I fear for quite a few seasons to come.

Brendan McLaughlin
34 Posted 25/11/2023 at 20:30:28
We've admitted we were guilty so the only grounds on which we can appeal are:

1) Sufficient weight wasn't given to our mitigations

2) The penalty was excessive

First problem is that there doesn't appear to be any sort of guidance as to what constitutes a mitigating factor and given the Independent Commission's report it appears that only the most unlikely and extraordinary events might possibly count as mitigating factors.

In reality we're unlikely to produce anything new on that front.

In respect of the excessiveness of the punishment...other clubs have been hit with with bigger points deductions albeit in different leagues.

I've seen a few people suggesting the 9 point penalty for going into administration as some sort of limit but obviously this hasn't been a convincing argument for other clubs who have been penalised much more harshly in the past.

Still think our best, perhaps only, option is to do our talking on the pitch...starting tomorrow!

Pete Neilson
35 Posted 25/11/2023 at 21:15:26
Ours is the highest ever points deduction in top-flight English football. The commission used Sheffield Wednesday as precedent in their report. Their appeal against a 12-point deduction was reduced in half simply on the fact it was excessive.

All others that were higher than ours (Leeds, Bournemouth, Coventry, Rotherham, Derby, Luton, Genoa, Arminia Bielefeld, Lazio, Fiorentina, AC Milan) involved at least one of administration, liquidation, match-fixing and bribes.

Ours is a completely different argument to theirs. As with Wednesday, the penalty is massively disproportionate.

Danny Baily
36 Posted 25/11/2023 at 21:18:31
Brendan, I stand by my assertion that we didn't do anything wrong in any meaningful way.

We should absolutely appeal the sanction on the basis of the mitigating factors, which more than account for the excess losses.

Brendan McLaughlin
37 Posted 25/11/2023 at 21:32:17
Danny #36

If we didn't do anything wrong in any meaningful way... why did we admit guilt?

As for the mitigating factors... who knows. There's absolutely nothing available, as far as I can tell, as to what constitutes a mitigating factor. So good luck to the club arguing that one.

Brendan McLaughlin
38 Posted 25/11/2023 at 21:39:53
Pete #35.

Tried to find details of the Sheffield Wednesday case and particularly their appeal but couldn't locate anything that explained things in detail.

What was the Wednesday case about and what were the grounds for reducing the original points deduction?

Does it offer us any hope?

Pete Neilson
39 Posted 25/11/2023 at 21:42:39
I think it does Brendan. It was simply seen as excessive.


Brent Stephens
40 Posted 25/11/2023 at 21:44:08
As well as arguing the mitigating factors, wouldn’t we also need to counter the aggravating factors that the Commission found to be relevant?
Danny Baily
41 Posted 25/11/2023 at 21:45:50
We admitted to having exceeded the threshold for losses over a 3-year period. We put forward multiple mitigating factors. They explain the losses.

Regardless, outside of the members of the independent commission, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who thinks an excess loss of £19.5m over a 3-year period for a Premier League club warrants a 10-point deduction.

We didn't do anything wrong in any meaningful way. The sanction should be overturned.

Brendan McLaughlin
42 Posted 25/11/2023 at 21:52:25
Indeed Brent #40

Starting to sober up now and thinking we can also revisit the financial extent of the breach?

Pete #39

Many thanks for that...another fascinating read ahead of me. Just being flippant..thanks.

Brendan McLaughlin
43 Posted 25/11/2023 at 22:01:27
Danny #41,

In the report, it's stated that Everton budgeted for finishing 6th... the season after we escaped relegation with two or so games to go.

Does that strike you as a realistic, genuine assumption? Or does it perhaps suggest that we were playing "fast and loose" with the financial parameters?

Brent Stephens
44 Posted 25/11/2023 at 22:07:32
Brendan “thinking we can also revisit the financial extent of the breach?”

Reducing the £19.5M overspend? Not sure how we could argue for that with confidence. The crux of the argument seemed to be around whether the stadium loan should be exempt from the calculation. And we tried to pull a fast one on that.

Danny Baily
45 Posted 25/11/2023 at 22:13:18
Brendan, 6 months prior to making that forecast we were sitting in 2nd at Christmas. It doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest we might have finished 6th.

Let's not make excuses for the Premier League. They have applied an unjust and wholly disproportionate sporting sanction for a minor accounting infringement, if it was even that. Don't let them off the hook.

Brendan McLaughlin
46 Posted 25/11/2023 at 22:16:23
Brent #44,

I thought Everton argued that the breach was closer to £10 million?

I get the Commission disagreed with Everton's argument but surely it's up to us to make the case more clearly in the appeal... unless of course we can't.

Brent Stephens
47 Posted 25/11/2023 at 22:27:55
Brendan, save me hunting. What paras or broadly where in the report is the detail on how the approx £9M we argued about is made up, what it relates to?


Brendan McLaughlin
48 Posted 25/11/2023 at 22:34:23
Danny #45,

And yet we didn't finish anywhere near 6th... didn't see that coming!

There's a fundamental concept of prudence in finance and Everton simply weren't prudent in that assumption.

"A minor accounting infringement, if it was even that. "

Everton's Premier League epitaph, perhaps?

Brendan McLaughlin
49 Posted 25/11/2023 at 22:50:06
Dunno Brent #47,

But Everton certainly argued the breach was less than the £19.5M. In fact I'm not even sure where the £19.5M is detailed in the report.

Most definitely not reading that report again!

Danny Baily
50 Posted 25/11/2023 at 22:55:14
Brendan @48, wait: did you see our battle against relegation coming that season? If so, you could have warned the rest of us.

Going into the first international break, all the talk was of us challenging for the top four. Even by the time of the Arsenal game at Goodsion, the protests were about a lack of trophies, not any looming threat of relegation.

It was entirely reasonable to suggest we might finish 6th that season.

Kieran Kinsella
51 Posted 25/11/2023 at 23:16:09
“Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the Earth,” Jesus Christ, 30 AD.

The point of this quote was to contrast the final reckoning with now. When do the meek ever come out on top ordinarily? When in history have persecuted people prospered by silently complying?

Bullies are empowered by meekness. Look at the RS murderers of 85, rather than punishing them we all were communally punished. Yet they have the audacity to kick and scream about every decision ever given against them since. You bend over or you don't.

Under the late Kenwright, we spent 30 years meekly apologizing for our existence and acting like we are just happy to be here. Consequently, the bullies thrived on that and abused us time and time again.

Now our very existence is in doubt because we meekly complied with an investigation and said “It's a fair Klopp, governor,” while every other club lies, cheats and steals. It's pathetic, it's embarrassing and it's self-defeating.

Getting back to Jesus. In the early church, there were Christians who avoided punishment by offering sacrifices to pagan gods. These weaklings were called apostates and there was much debate about whether they should be allowed to return to the church. My view is that they should have been permanently banished.

I hold the same view of any meek Evertonian now saying “Oh don't make it worse – just comply.” This is a time for courage, not weakness. If you want to surrender in the face of insurmountable odds, then change your name to Lord Haw Haw and join the RS.

We need warriors not meek apostates. Without trying to be too melodramatic, anyone who doesn't remain defiant is dead to me as an Evertonian.

Bill Hawker
52 Posted 25/11/2023 at 23:18:11
And of course Luton and Bournemouth win… You couldn't make it up.
Brendan McLaughlin
53 Posted 25/11/2023 at 23:18:45
Danny #50

There's an old adage in football... "You don't win the title in December*"

So I think the more prudent estimate of where Everton would finish should have been based on the previous couple of seasons rather than a "flash in the pan" good couple of months.

Particularly when the manager had a clause in his contract to allow him to walk.

And let's face it, if we had been more prudent in our forecasts, what harm would it have done our cause? Unfortunately perhaps being deliberately disingenuous has brought us to this.

* Substitute any month of your choice other than May or any month when your team are so far ahead on points that no other team can catch them...

[Is it ToffeeWeb or am I getting a little bit paranoid?]

Neil Copeland
54 Posted 25/11/2023 at 23:22:56
Kieran #51, well said mate – fuck the lot of them. UTFT!
Ricky Oak
55 Posted 25/11/2023 at 23:31:59
Not even one word about the 10-point penalty being applied on the biased as fuck BBC.

What the actual fuck! Seriously, how is it not even newsworthy for football's so-called neutral pundits? Even if applied to a League 2 club, every man and his dog would have an opinion, wouldn't they?

Even more suspicious, the most important teams in the world get last billing on the wank MotD. Never happened before, why now?

Agghh, fuming I am, at the total disregard and utter poisonous bullshit the beautiful game has been since, for some reason Everton, became the most violent, shady example of the kind of club that brings shame to the game.

Even so, we cannot become relegated, it could be the death of this amazing club, it is difficult enough now to attract great players… otherwise, I would be glad to see the back of the illegal Premier League.

Ricky Oak
56 Posted 25/11/2023 at 23:39:29
Kieran Kinsella for Everton public relations manager.

Undeniably best post about the whole sorry state of affairs.

Thank you, KK, I 100% agree with you.

Kunal Desai
57 Posted 25/11/2023 at 23:39:33
We need to start becoming a much tougher club to deal with and start pushing back. Become more resilient with a "take no nonsense" attitude. Absolutely no way should we lie down and accept the 10-point deduction.

If we don't fight this then we're becoming a soft touch and easy target for the Premier League and PGMOL to walk all over us like they have done with decisions that have gone before. Got to become a hard-nosed bastard of a club.

Brendan McLaughlin
58 Posted 25/11/2023 at 23:45:35
Not sure where Kieran #51 is coming from.

I certainly haven't seen any posters suggesting Everton should meekly accept the punishment.

As for what Jesus would do... I suspect tell the truth!

Mal van Schaick
59 Posted 25/11/2023 at 23:48:50
Thanks Jim. I too thought those punters comments were stupid. In fact those points should be reinstated until our appeal is heard, and then, and only then should any points be taken.

In fact Everton should not accept any points deduction until such times that there is any other judgment to use as a benchmark or comparison.

Kieran Kinsella
60 Posted 26/11/2023 at 00:07:46

Other thread, Raymond and James.

Brendan McLaughlin
61 Posted 26/11/2023 at 00:18:37
Kieran #60

"Other thread Raymond and James"


But I'll play...which other thread and if you can give me the relevant post numbers I'd much appreciate it

Although two posters on a few threads that have had a lot of traffic....let me think

Barry Hesketh
62 Posted 26/11/2023 at 00:24:15
Brendan @61,

I think you'll find those comments that Kieran refers to on the Premier League – Matchweek 13 thread.

I sometimes wonder to myself, whether at one time or another you were a member of HM Police force, as you seem to constantly interrogate posters as to their reasoning and conclusions, when they post.

It's a great pity that Everton didn't have somebody as forensic within its legal team – we may have been given an additional 10 points and be in the running for a European place.

Kieran Kinsella
63 Posted 26/11/2023 at 00:28:15

Sorry mate but ToffeeWeb moves quickly. I read them while I was walking the dog then found a free moment to respond on this topically relevant thread.

I'm not a court clerk keeping minutes so follow Barry's lead if you're concerned.

Brendan McLaughlin
64 Posted 26/11/2023 at 00:30:24
Ha ha Barry #62,

I'll take that compliment in the spirit that it wasn't given.

But before I do... it is just Raymond and James?

Mark Taylor
65 Posted 26/11/2023 at 00:46:18
It seems to me that a number of posters are still at the very early stages of grief – denial and anger.

Personally, I briefly jumped a stage to depression, at how utterly useless and amateur the club's officers have been in facilitating this debacle. I had a hunch they were useless tossers but now I know for sure. It is supremely depressing we have had to suffer such charlatans and chancers for as long as we have.

But as I said above, I've moved back one to bargaining. There are multiple reasons why 10 points is excessive and I think it will be reduced. Then maybe I can move on to acceptance – especially, if as appears to be the case, any financial cost will fall squarely on the muppet in chief, our brain-dead owner.

Brendan McLaughlin
66 Posted 26/11/2023 at 00:49:26
Kieran #63,

Impressed by your posting prowess given you've only been able to snatch a brief moment but post a pretty lengthy piece. Respect!

But to be clear... it's just the two that are dead to you?

Former HM Police Force member


Stephen Davies
67 Posted 26/11/2023 at 03:19:32
Martin Samuel of The Times... Long read:

Premier League has turned lawyers and accountants into its stars

After the Everton debacle, why have a government regulator to kill off the best club competition in the world? The league has done it all by itself

Martin Samuel, Saturday 25 November 2023, 6:00 pm, The Sunday Times

Did you watch it, the big match? Obviously, I did, but then it's my job. You, not so much. Nobody has to devote hours of their day to the Premier League any more, now we know it's bent. Check back in five, maybe ten, years' time and find out what happened. Possibly. Depends on the strength of the lawyers and accountants. They're the real heroes now. Not those sweaty footballers.

Most of them shouldn't be here anyway. The billionaire owners can't afford them, apparently. And they can't add up. It's only the firm in the back office making sense of the balance sheet that gets any deals over the line at all. That should be the new transfer market. If Todd Boehly pays £105 million for Enzo Fernández, how much will he bid for a top accountant? Not to mention a King's Counsel.

It's Richard Masters's great gift to the nation. He's given us the weekend back. Now that football's bent, no need to tune in, or go, at all. You can crack on with those jobs that need doing around the house.

Who won? Who cares? The result is only a basis for negotiation. Like the league table. It's an opening gambit. We'll find out what it really looks like a decade on, once all the fines have been paid, the deductions made and the prizes reallocated. Maybe Sheffield United are this season's champions. They are going to be so excited when they find out, providing they are not back in League One by then.

On April 18, 2017, Sport Recife won the Brazilian championship. The 1987 Brazilian championship, to be precise, but no doubt it was well worth the 30-year wait for the case to progress through the courts. Maybe that is Masters's vision, too. Unsatisfied with being handed control of the most successful domestic club competition in the world, this is the model the chief executive and new chairwoman Alison Brittain prefer. Such larks.

In 2013, the four-times Brazilian national champions Fluminense were relegated and then swiftly reinstated when the much smaller Portuguesa — average attendance less than 5,000, the lowest in the Campeonato — were found guilty of fielding a suspended player and docked four points. Everton may recognise the handwriting.

This was considered a harsh ­punishment because it was accepted there was a miscommunication from the league, and the club had no way of knowing of the player ban. But, conveniently, four points was precisely the number required to put them below Fluminense — three, and they would have survived on goal difference. The next season, Portuguesa attempted to walk off midway through a Série B game with Joinville, when a court official arrived with a ruling that they were actually a Série A club. Seriously, we've got so much to look forward to.

It's some leap, from best to bent, but the Premier League has made it. So we have Everton deducted ten points, making Manchester City and Chelsea appear under threat of, what, 50, 100, 1,000? We thought we had to wait for the government regulator to turn up and kill the competition, but the league have done it all by themselves. They have made a blue-riband brand that was the envy of Europe, and brought us Chelsea 4 Manchester City 4 on November 12, look worthless five days later. Nothing we see now is to be believed, not the title race, not the tussle for European competition, not relegation.

Real Madrid, Barcelona and the clubs that wanted to form the Super League must be howling. They have been trying to denigrate the Premier League for years, without success and now this. Well done, Señor Masters. Our mission, accomplished.

But Everton broke the rules. Well, yes they did, but no they didn't. They broke the Premier League's grandly named profitability and sustainability regulations and that carries a punishment. We all understand this, even if we don't agree. Yet the profitability and sustainability rules are a false construct, shaped by the richest and most powerful so they stay at the top and keep the upstarts down. They are protectionist, anti-competition and serve only an established elite. They are the real crime in football. So, yes, Everton fell foul of them. But ten points? Really?

So a short digression. I am sometimes asked why I don't make more fuss about Manchester City's 115 charges, or those now expected at Chelsea. Bear with me. If you know somebody in the creative arts, particularly the music industry, you may have talked to them about drug use. And they may have said they don't use drugs. But that probably doesn't include marijuana. Drugs means the serious stuff. Dope is different. They'll say they don't use drugs sitting across a table with an overflowing ashtray and an empty packet of Rizlas. They'll say they don't use drugs while rolling a joint in front of you and listening to Light Up Your Spliff by the Bush Chemists.

And that's how I feel about FFP. I know it's illegal to contravene those rules but, personally, I don't see it as a major crime and never have. Rules that limit owner investment are wrong and I was writing that the previous time I was employed by Times newspapers. I was gone 14 years.

Unless the owner is sending his club skint, of course. I'd have teams or lawyers and accountants on standby ready to march on Reading this morning, and take the club out of the hands of Dai Yongge. The moment an owner can't pay the wages, or HMRC or other contractors, even for a matter of weeks, he would forfeit the right to run the business.

If Everton were in jeopardy under Farhad Moshiri, that would be different. Seize the club, put it under administrative control, take whatever action is needed to make it secure. If that means selling players or making do without new arrivals, so be it. And maybe Everton would be relegated as a result of these measures, but that would be achieved on the field. Not by a committee of three behind closed doors and with what appear to be clear instructions from the Premier League.

There should be plenty of rules governing club ownership, but none governing the inward investment of owners. It is what just about every fan wants. Newcastle United fans did not praise Mike Ashley for running a tight ship, even though that was in part what made them a good investment for Saudi Arabia. They wanted more of what Everton attempted: ambition, expansion. Moshiri's mistake was to invest, badly. He bought unwisely, or without strategy. Yet what he tried to do, quite simply, was to break into the elite or, at the very least, keep up. On Boxing Day, 2020, Everton were second in the league. At that time, the plan was working.

Equally, throughout that period and before, Leicester City were fighting to adhere to profit and sustainability rules by selling players. Wesley ­Fofana, Ben Chilwell, Harry Maguire, Riyad Mahrez, Danny Drinkwater, N'Golo Kanté — the end result being relegation last year. No wonder they feel aggrieved at Everton's carelessness. How is that fair? It isn't. But it's not unfair because of Everton. It is unfair because Leicester were made to comply with arbitrary financial controls thwarting their progress.

Leicester are owned by wealthy people. They shouldn't have to sell players if they don't want to. They have the money to keep the club going with investment, to aim high, to have some fun. What is stopping them? Rules that benefit the very clubs that covet their players and want to keep the ambitious at bay. Rules that benefit Chelsea, Manchester United, Manchester City. Arsenal, too, if they could have got their mitts on a peak Jamie Vardy. And smaller clubs have always sold to wealthier rivals.

Yet there is a difference between making that choice and having to do so — even after winning the title — because the rules demand it. An owner should not land the club with unsustainable debt, but inward investment is not an offence. Moshiri bought players. It didn't work. He shoulders the burden of that, financially and reputationally. The harm to rivals is artificially ­created.

There are three ways to grow a football business. The first is to be successful, but that is extraordinarily difficult in such a competitive climate and, as Leicester found, even when the miracle happens, financial regulations make it hard to sustain.

Then there is organic growth, much celebrated by fans and executives of clubs that achieved it in a time of no financial restraints at all. These days, it is a myth. There was no greater foundation for organic growth than the youth policy and recruitment at Southampton. They bought well, produced well, developed well and had Mauricio Pochettino as their manager. And everyone saw it.

Then in came ­Arsenal (Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, Calum Chambers), Liverpool (Adam Lallana, Dejan Lovren, Rickie Lambert, Nathaniel Clyne, Sadio Mané, Virgil van Dijk), United (Luke Shaw, Morgan Schneiderlin), Tottenham Hotspur (Pochettino, Victor Wanyama, Pierre-Emile Hojberg). So Southampton could not grow organically, because the major clubs would not let them, and now they are in the Championship, with Leicester. It may happen to Brighton & Hove Albion or Brentford too one day soon. It only needs a sale too many, or a sale that coincides with a spate of injuries, a few moneyball-type signings replacing key players that don't work as planned.

Nothing grows organically if a vandal keeps entering the garden, pulling young plants out by the root. This leaves one form of growth. Inward investment. So that's what the richest clubs strive to regulate out of existence: the only way it is now possible to climb the ladder. Checkmate.

And the Premier League helps them. Everton were found guilty by an independent commission, yet it now transpires Masters got exactly the punishment the League demanded to within 0.1 of a point. It was initially reported that the Premier League had asked its independent commission for a 12-point deduction, but this is wrong. We now know Masters asked for six points, plus one point for every £5 million breach of the profit and sustainability rules. Everton were in breach by £19.5 million. So had Masters got his way, Everton would have been deducted 9.9 points.

But, we are told, this independent commission did not want a fixed punishment schedule and instead decided to enforce a sanction on the evidence submitted. They went with ten instead. Masters must have been chewing the furniture in rage. Imagine wanting 9.9 and getting ten.

Still, that's the sort of random judgment you get with independent minds. Coming soon, a ruling on how much compensation Leeds United, and other relegated clubs, might receive from Everton. This will be decided by a panel headed by David Phillips KC, who also headed the commission that docked the ten points, and the commission that decided relegated clubs had a compensation claim against Everton, and represented Leeds when they were deducted 15 points by the EFL in 2007 for breaking insolvency rules. Independence abounds, as you can see.

That is the next stage, turning back time, as they do in Brazil. So Leeds were not relegated because they lost eight and drew two of their last 11 ­Premier League games, but because Everton overspent by £19.5 million. And Burnley did not drop in 2021-22 because they won a single Premier League game — ONE — between the start of the season and February 19, but because numbers on Everton's balance sheet did not add up. Where does this stop? Jermain Defoe's transfer from Tottenham to Portsmouth in 2008 is now being reinvestigated over the alleged use of an illegal agent.

That carried a points deduction when Luton Town did it but, at the time, the FA did not follow through on Defoe. In 2009-10, when the investigation was taking place, Tottenham finished three points above Manchester City to qualify for the Champions League. Can it now be argued that had Tottenham been deducted points, then City would have been in the Champions League a year earlier, their balance sheet might have looked different — Tottenham got to the ­quarter-finals — and they might not be facing so many charges? How far do we want to go back? By all accounts, Arsenal's entry into the top division in 1919 was a bit of a rum do. Should we look at that?

The Lord Griffiths ruling that Sheffield United were not responsible for their league position in 2006-07 was always going to return to haunt football and here it is. If further precedent is established, more than ever football will become the sport of the middle class — middle-class lawyers and accountants. The workers will do the menial jobs, the running around, shooting, dribbling, defending, the stuff that no longer matters. Meanwhile, the Premier League rolls on, as if nothing has changed, as if we all still believe in it, and think it fair and sustainable.

What we are being asked to concede is that Chelsea buying Eden Hazard was a bad thing, that Everton trying to compete with Liverpool was wrong for the game, that Manchester City's move from punchline to headline bringing with it some of the greatest football and footballers we have seen, plus the greatest manager, was without merit. The very thing that made the Premier League the best is being redrawn as its biggest failing.

And there will be new and different rules next season because Uefa's financial regulations are changing. So keep up at the back, the rules shifted on Everton and now look where they are. Value the suits, those doing the hard yards on paper, who understand. They will be the heroes.

All big companies have identifiable branding, much like football kits. ­Wilberforce Chambers, where Phillips works, appear to favour a dark green and white. Blackstone Chambers, home of Lord David Pannick, representing Manchester City, are navy blue with flicks of white, and pink. As far as accountants go, PWC are black, red and orange; Deloitte black, white and green. You think this is a joke? There has already been a banner held up at the Eithad Stadium, in support of Lord Pannick, by name. These are your new colours, people. This is where the Premier League has brought us. The score no longer matters, the verdict does.

Gerry Quinn
68 Posted 26/11/2023 at 07:07:16
Stephen, 67,

WOW! I am impressed, not just with the content, but the sheer volume of quality...

Dennis Stevens
69 Posted 26/11/2023 at 07:26:03
Thanks for posting that, Stephen. Even if it does seem to be confirming the death of football.
Derek Thomas
70 Posted 26/11/2023 at 07:32:15
Stephen Davies @ 67;

Well done for posting, but will those fine words butter any of the Premier League parsnips...or should that be the fix appears to be in.

Yes, it might all 'Come Out' somewhere down the track, but it will be as useless as a (rare) VAR apology.

All we can do is try to claw it back one game at a time.

Duncan McDine
71 Posted 26/11/2023 at 07:46:03
The article in The Times, shared at post 67 is fantastic... thanks for posting it, Stephen.

Keiran (51) - I always had a feeling that Jesus was full of shit. You've confirmed it. Thank you.

Wish I was at Goodison today. I don't know what to do with myself for the next 8 or 9 hours...

Ian Jones
72 Posted 26/11/2023 at 07:49:16
Stephen, interesting read. I seem to remember reading some articles from Martin Samuels looking at the loan system that was used by Everton, the season we loaned in Lukaku, Deulofeu, Barry. Can't remember the 4th one.

The articles were fairly critical of the loan system suggesting they were a way to get round FFP or P&S rules but could also help teams like us try to break into the elite. Arsene Wenger was also critical of the system as his team's place was in danger of being replaced in the Champions League places by us.

Seems top clubs have been protecting their place in the football hierarchy… Who knew!

Jerome Shields
73 Posted 26/11/2023 at 08:33:00
The Club should definitely appeal the decision and fight any compensation claims. Actually, I did not feel that the Club did enough to try to control the narrative on the run up to the commission or put their case forward to the Commission. The Commission was allowed to come to some flimsy judgement as far as reasoning was concerned. It was like they had a determined agenda from the outset.

I don't think the 10-point deduction will be reduced, but it's comparable overkill, which would imply that clubs could be expelled when in reality they won't be, can be used to fight the compensation claims. No matter what the decision on compensation, it should be also appealed.

I still do not have confidence in the current regime which does not seem to be putting into practice clear objectives.

Dennis Stevens
74 Posted 26/11/2023 at 08:34:01
Interesting points, Keiran #51.

To put it another way, as Richard Thompson wrote & sang: "Good Things Happen To Bad People".

Pete Neilson
75 Posted 26/11/2023 at 09:08:50
Man City is disputing the legality of the Premier League investigation and the barrister who was chosen to lead the process. They also dispute changes in the Premier League's rules, arguing that they should not apply to investigations into alleged rule breaches before then. They are willing to end up in the High Court and the Court of Appeal and if necessary the Supreme Court. Not a good look for the Premier League.

We've surely left it too late for this sort of action, having taken part in the process and appearing to accept its legitimacy. Surely our initial appeal to the Premier League is over the severity of the punishment.

We must also be arguing the point that the penalty system we've been judged against was only agreed on (by who?) 5 months after the offence. According to the report “On 10 August 2023 the Premier League board adopted a sanction policy that it considered to be appropriate to breaches of the PSR. The policy was detailed in section 7 of Mr Masters' witness statement.”

Interesting that only “the board” is mentioned. Was this policy ever voted on by the clubs, was it even published? All else failing, maybe this retrospectively applied policy does give us, if needed, a legal opening.

Jim Lloyd
76 Posted 26/11/2023 at 09:44:15
Jim Wilson!, a top class article and I go along with it 100%. (and Stephen Davies, thank you for submitting that brilliant article by Martin Samuels...superb)

Jim, some of the points you raised I'm also worried about. Pitch invasions, blue smoke flares (or whatever they're called) being directed onto the pitch, if we win or if we lose, or just because someone wants to.

I was thinking that the £30,000, raised could go to getting the best lawyers there are and drag the bastard Premier League, to court.

Referees on the pitch, and the ones that man phoney VAR system? Well if we think they were bent before just wait and see what their decisions are like from now on, if they think we're calling them bent...which they are!

Jim. You're spot on mate, we should concentrate on supporting our team, who have got a hell of a job on. The PL will be informing teir refs to look for anything which will impede us and pitch invasions and the like. will be like manna from heaven for them.

The PL will look for anything, anything at all that will give them an excuse to pile on punishments.

Mark (25) Well saide.

Give them F all!

Neil Copeland
77 Posted 26/11/2023 at 09:49:57
Jim #76, I agree with your sentiments but unfortunately we would need to add at least one nought to the £30k figure!
Phil Wood
78 Posted 26/11/2023 at 09:50:12
Thanks, Stephen (67) for posting the excellent Martin Samuel article.

At least the top journalists know the reality of football.

Very sad that the game is dead as we knew it.

No chance to break into the elite through organic growth etc etc.

The rich holding all the Aces and having the best accountants and legal minds.

Great view into the murky, corrupt, wheeling and dealing at the top tables and the people controlling the People's (not!) Game.

Phil Wood
79 Posted 26/11/2023 at 09:53:06
I should add a big thanks to Jim Wilson for the great article.
Jim Lloyd
80 Posted 26/11/2023 at 10:21:52
Neil (77) :) What's that song Neil? it's a rich mans game! Not arff!
Jim Wilson
81 Posted 26/11/2023 at 11:18:50
Jim @ 76 - Spot on mate. I think the older supporters have got the good sense not to get carried away (although there's always one!) it's the youngsters who I worry about.

And I can't blame them, but we must be restrained.

It also highlights the opinion that you should not be punishing Everton mid season as it is affecting things while we are actually playing. It would never be done like this for another sport. It could easily escalate into other issues and just isn't right.

I genuinely believe the treatment of Everton is an unprecedented disgrace. Everton stupidity has brought it on but I am sure they thought they were only doing what everyone was doing.

If my memory is correct weren't Liverpool looked into for something similar around 2014?

The Luton win underlines my worry that a points deduction of any amount puts us in big trouble. We have to fight this with the best people we can get as it is a totally unjust punishment.

Cheers Phil!

Jim Wilson
82 Posted 26/11/2023 at 11:20:45
Stephen @ 67 - brilliant mate!
Jerome Shields
83 Posted 26/11/2023 at 11:22:39

Everton did not take such action since they thought the Premier League was working with them and they as a Club that came out strongly against the European League in favour of the Premier League. Everton really thought they were in the tent pissing out, as LBJ once said. They found themselves bucked out of the tent and pissed on.They also thought they were in prime position to manipulate the system, knowing the underlining agenda.The vested interests turned on them, recognising the weakness of their incompetence, and the value of them appearing to be a soft touch. They did not take into account Evertonians and their collective influence on the consciousness off the modern media.

Man City imo are right if they are challenging on those grounds.Most of the Man City breaches will be IMO do do with not co operating with the Premier League monitoring and suggestions to get back into line.

But the Premier League being dominated by old vested interests and maintaining it's finances has a agenda, which wears thin when the credibility of their Rules and their application are examined closely.

Man City are seeking to exploit that weakness, which Everton's case has highlighted further. But the result is calling into question thr authority of the Premier League to regulate football and that is a danger for Man City they never expected.Though the government has had talks in Saudi regarding the Man City case., as admitted by a visiting UK Government Minister.

Jerome Shields
84 Posted 26/11/2023 at 11:33:45
By the way Sky are part of the vested interests in the Premier League, hence the attempts of censorship of Evertonians
Duncan McDine
85 Posted 26/11/2023 at 11:37:09
Fucking fuming after watching Sky Sports this morning with 2 journos who must be on the take - North Korean style controlling of the narrative and protecting the Premier League. The way it was presented in a softly-softly way, "sympathetic to Everton fans", but not once looking into the reasons for why we call the PL "corrupt". Cunts. The lot of em.

Jim Wilson
86 Posted 26/11/2023 at 11:49:22
Jerome @ 84 - you are right mate. Sky couldn't even show a plane flying over the City ground. We will see more censorship at our match and then its carry on with the propaganda and giving other club supporters more false narratives to spread about our club.

Divide and conquer!

Barry Robson
87 Posted 26/11/2023 at 12:20:13
Jerome 84 spot on. That's precisely why I have never subscribed to Sky as I always felt they would eventually lead the modern game to where it is currently.
I urge any Evertonians giving their hard earned cash to these corrupt twats to vote with your feet and cancel the subscription. If only for this season and to make the point we can always reduce their income. UTFT
David Vaughan
88 Posted 26/11/2023 at 12:32:58
Barry (#87) I’ve been streaming Sky Sports through NOWTv (Sky in all but name). I’ll watch their coverage of our game today so I can rant with an informed diatribe. But the minute it’s over, I’m cancelling. Five years (this time). Stopped. And I urge others to follow Barry’s first rate suggestion. In fact, I think we should start an inter-club supporters online campaign...#UTFT #EFC
Steve Byles
89 Posted 26/11/2023 at 13:05:57
The Premier League are determined to relegate us. Having placed us in the bottom 3, they’ll be determined to keep us there: encouraging compensation claims, refereeing /VAR decisions, and provoking Evertonians into reckless behaviours. If all else fails, then apply a higher penalty at the appeal hearing.

They’ll now be working with Sky and the tabloids to quieten our voice until the general outrage dies down.

Dave Abrahams
90 Posted 26/11/2023 at 13:20:18
Duncan (71), I’m not sure, because I can’t speak for Kieran @(51) but I don’t think he was saying “ Jesus is full of shit”.
Eric Haworth
91 Posted 26/11/2023 at 13:32:10
As others have already pointed out within this and other threads on this site, one of footballs most respected sports journalists, Martin Samuel's article in today's Sunday Times has taken up the fight in no uncertain terms.

He's always tended to be bit of an Everton “knocker” but this time he pulls no punches with this condemnation of the Premier League, eg, “It's some leap, best to bent, but the Premier League have made it”.

Wow, I believe this to be a first, as his article has used language & made assertions that I've not seen previously from mainstream media sources, so could it be that cracks are beginning to appear, we can only hope?

Although it might've come a bit late in the day for us, with the Premier League's haste to “nail” us at all costs and with some haste. So it may be that one point (and you'll excuse the pun a bit later) raised in this article, that might be key if we have to endure their punitive points deduction, and one that I've raised previously elsewhere, is the commission's insistence that they've penalised us based purely on 6 points for our transgression, plus 1 point each time we “exceed” a £5M tranche that's above their threshold?

If that is indeed the case, then their claim that we exceeded the threshold by £19.5M, meant that there were 3 tranches of £5M up to a figure of £15M that accrued 1 point each, totalling 3 points. However, the final tranche only came to £4.5M, and as such shouldn't accrue any points because it was below the £5M figure they set as accruing points for deduction?

Therefore, they should've only deducted 9 points from us & we should now be sitting on 5 points in 18th place, which puts us 4pts behind Luton, and safety, which could be key in the final reckoning at the end of the season, and should therefore be on the list of issues presented for correction by our lawyers at the appeal hearing?

This brings me to my final point, and that's who represents us at the appeal hearing, because Farad Moshiri shouldn't be anywhere near it, given the reports of his performance at our original hearing. We should be fielding the best-qualified team of lawyers available to represent us and present our appeal.

If this was my business, I would be approaching Lord David Pannick of Blackstone Chambers, who're Man City's lawyers and have been preparing their defence of 115 charges for approximately the last 5 years, so must be well versed on some similar issues among that 115?

I would also suspect that a pro bono arrangement might be available, given that it could be mutually beneficial to their “other” client, as our outcome could have a significant impact on those of Man City. Plus, a defence in numbers always helps?

Jerome Shields
92 Posted 26/11/2023 at 13:36:35
Actually I am very suspicious of Liverpool's tut-tut approach. They appear by the Echo to be using the Everton decision to get at Man City.

Makes me wonder which foot they were kicking with in the Premier League. A European Super League is the equivalent of a monopoly and that could still be the only objective, with whatever dressing suits.

It really is a den of thieves this Premier League, but there is no loyalty to kindred sprits as Everton have found out. That is why Evertonians should keep going, they are on the firm moral high ground, which will work out in the end.

Jim Wilson
93 Posted 26/11/2023 at 13:45:03
Brilliant Jerome - On the nosey mate!


Jim Lloyd
94 Posted 26/11/2023 at 13:46:06
I think Liverpool are keeping quiet so as not to have any attention shine on them.
Jim Wilson
95 Posted 26/11/2023 at 13:48:13
Eric @ 91 - spot on mate.

Christine Fosters extract of the Times article is worth showing here:

Martin Samuels in The Times has it right... it's a shame it's taken rape of Everton to lay bare the corruption of fair play, the abandonment of any pretence to having a level playing field. But most of all, it's the determination of the Premier League to kill Everton at any cost that is naked in its use of a so-called "independent" commission. Independent from who or what, or even how?

Jim Wilson
96 Posted 26/11/2023 at 13:51:35
Jim @ 94,

It is either what you say or they are actively pushing it.

We have a new ground on the horizon that they know will affect their income so I'm with the latter theory.

But their silence is deafening.

Jim Lloyd
97 Posted 26/11/2023 at 13:57:55
Dead right Jim. I think that club are like the Roman god Janus. Two faced bastards.
Dale Self
98 Posted 26/11/2023 at 14:10:06
Or the French muse, J’anus.
Michael Kenrick
99 Posted 26/11/2023 at 14:49:05
Eric @91,

"The commission's insistence that they've penalised us based purely on 6 points for our transgression, plus 1 point each time we “exceed” a £5M tranche that's above their threshold."

I got a distinctly different impression of that 'calculation', Eric, when I read the report.

Although they did quote the 'formula', I thought they said specifically that they didn't use any formula. They just came up with 10 points – seemingly out of the blue (sick) as they made no attempt to rationalise it. Seems just happenstance that the punishment fits the formula, if they round up the £19.5M to £20M.

Although neither interpretation makes much sense so let's hope our lawyers are up to snuff in tackling this issue and tearing it apart.

Ray Said
100 Posted 26/11/2023 at 15:17:50
We should forgo any transfers in the January window and use the money for a legal defence fund.
Jim Lloyd
101 Posted 26/11/2023 at 16:18:41
Could be Dale. But I like to think of the muses as goddess like creatures. Whereas the redshite are like the Harpie.

Thanks for explaining that, Michael. In the attempt to make the Punishment fit the crime, (or to try and give the punishment some sort of logic) they look like they've come up with a number of points that looks like they've rationalised the number of points deducted. In reality, they've knocked a couple of points off and thought, that'll do!

Jack Convery
104 Posted 27/11/2023 at 17:11:24
David @88,

I've never had Sky TV and never will. When they bought English football, I said it would turn out for the worst. How I wish I had been wrong.

Anything with Murdoch involved is to be avoided at all cost. We took a lead role in the Murdoch Coup, more's the pity. I can still see Phillip Carter and John Smith signing the contract that sold football to the devil. I would urge everyone to cancel Sky Sports immediately.

For those who believe there is no agenda against EFC, and surely it must be dwindling in numbers by now, I will state we are not welcome in this league. Moshiri to his credit was right on the ball when the Sly Six (how well they blend in with the Premier League brand), behind the backs of the Premier League board in a very untrustworthy manner.

They planned and then tried to break away into a USA style TV Mega League. The supposed best clubs with the best footballers and coaches playing for a title without any jeopardy at all. Money pouring in, every team getting richer and richer.

I wish they had sodded off but to only fine them a paltry amount which was actually less than our overspend was a weak response, to say the least. It was mealy-mouthed and done for show, though not to punish. I believe that was when the Sly Six and the powers that be decided they had, had enough of EFC.

They don't like teams breaking into their fiefdom. They screwed us when we finished 4th. They should have backed us and told the RS to do one, instead of backing them but no. It's easier to leave EFC to the sharks and what sharks, they made sure we were knocked out. Collina's last ever match = coincidence ? I think not.

I know everyone says look at Leicester, they won the Premier League… but where are they now? Chelsea came and bought Drinkwater, Chilwell and Kante. Man City took Mahrez. Arsenal wanted Vardy but he turned them down. So when a team does succeed, it will be stripped of its better players.

They've devalued the FA Cup, the most famous and in my opinion, revered knock-out tournament in football. They have played weakened teams and Man Utd one season did not play in it, to go and play in a real Mickey Mouse tournament.

Too many times we have been a first for the Premier League. The Niasse ban for alleged diving has never been repeated despite the obvious diving by players like Kane, Salah, dare I say Martial, et al.

Now we are the 1st team to be deducted 10 points even though we are not yet in administration, which attracts 9 points and not planning to undermine the Premier League by sodding off to another league with 5 others.

Either the referees are incompetent or downright corrupt. Yesterday, why was McTominay not booked? Fernadez the same. They play for Man Utd, one of the Six and we can't have their players serving suspensions when millions want to see the best players on the pitch. Book Everton players at will as no-one gives a shit about them.

EFC, players and fans, will get through this but it will be the hardest path we have ever had to tread. The Psalm The Lord is My Shepherd rings so true right now.

Jim Wilson
105 Posted 27/11/2023 at 19:12:29
Jack - you say it better than I ever could and I believe and agree with every word. It is so obvious it is incredible. The club needs lawyers who can represent us well and cover every single point that needs to be pointed out.

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