Is this as good as it gets with David Moyes?

I say that because does anyone know what length of time Moyes was given on his contract, most of the media were saying it was two and a half years while a few were saying that it was a six months contract with his position to be reviewed at the end of this season.

Two and a half years seemed a long time, to me, although it might have been that he wouldn’t have come if it was less, especially as the wages allegedly being quoted — £10M per year, were well over the ability Moyes possesses with other coaching staffs wages to be added on.

Let’s see how the remaining games pan out before we say yes or no to whether he stays or goes.

I think Moyes, with the right backing, could get us between 6th and 10th on a regular basis but might struggle to break into the top four and more.

It was widely reported that he's here on a two and a half year deal and if he gets us up to between 6th and 10th for both forthcoming seasons I think that could be considered a success on his part.

He'd have then laid a foundation for a "better" manager to take us further.

We all want instant success but realistically we're not going to turn into world beaters within two transfer windows. We need to improve, stabilise, maximize income and be financially astute. Then we can look to attracting better players AND a better manager.

For those thinking we need to change for next season please give me the names of managers who would do a better job. But lets remember those managers who finished above us this season wouldn't come. Moyes deserves and will get another full season, then we can see where we are, before changing manager yet again.

Brian I guess when you mention Howard you are talking about his first term and not his 2nd and 3rd spells.

Some well decorated managers might really struggle with a limited group of players but excel with superstars

Dyche in my view did an exceptional job with a squad that really had no right to avoid relegation. But it ran its course.

Moyes is already doing a good job with a low quality squad but naturally he can't keep an unlikely run of wins going. No-one could. We're just not good enough.

Whether Moyes remains the right man is entirely dependent on squad quality and levels of (net) spending.

He has a track record of spending a big budget badly - and failing to play the front foot football demanded at top clubs.

However, he has a track record of over performing with a smallish, limited squad a smaller budget than the richest clubs.

I expect that's exactly what we need for 2 more years at least.

After that who knows.

By all means have a look at the situation come next January, but for now me personally, I think we need to stick with him.

It is out of the question TFG replace him in summer.

BMD is a nice development but it doesn't suddenly mean we're equipped to compete again.

I had reservations about him coming back but I have to say he has won me over and is certainly good value for the 2.5 years contract he was given.

We need some stability and a smooth transition in the squad and I believe he will have us near the top of the table soon.

As for winning things The big spenders and PL and media darlings will continue to dominate for as long as that culture continues but at least we will be challenging at the right end of the table.

The so called top managers are invariably surrounded with top players which obviously helps to win games.
I cant see us climbing to the top untill our squad is as strong as the usual top 4 or 5 teams.

We can live in hope but its more about players than managers.

I can see exactly where you are coming from and it might be that you have called his ceiling correctly but I think he has earned the right to see if he can put together a decent squad moving forward.

I mean it's not as if we've won anything in 30 years is it?

I know everyone will shout "We didn't win anything with Moyes the first time" but he went away and won something, that's a fact; the West Ham fans I know would have him back.

Let's give the bloke a chance and look forward, not back.

As to your main point, I think there's no real way to know what our ceiling is with Moyes. As Raymond points out, we don't really know how good he is, just how he's been in the past. Managers are like any other profession -- they learn over time.

Davy's touchline mien is certainly different -- more sunny, less stormy -- and there are signs of greater flexibility, most specifically with the installation of O'Brien at a new position of right back. And while many complain of his "dithering" on subs, I think he's made more good moves than bad ones during this positive stretch.

One possibility you considered I believe can be dismissed. There's no way in the world the Friedkins will replace him this summer. They'll stick.

If a manager is not showing any progress or has lost the dressing room, or has an aversion to some players or management, okay, fine.

However, dismissing a manager who is getting the players to bond and play together, who has shown more forward thinking than the past half dozen, that is crazy talk, he has to be given some time to show his intent and vision.

Facts aside, the payoff for Moyes would probably take us into PSR country again.

Finally, journeymen. Beto, Broja, Lindstrom, I could agree with you on those points, but Broja still has till the end of the season to make his positive impression. McNeil, Tarkowski, Mykolenko, and Garner? You are kidding aren't you? You've got to be!?

Spending levels at West Ham have been very high and, despite the trophy, they were expecting more from the level of spending and wages (enough for a tilt at the Top 4 and beyond). They have since gone backwards because they are complete idiots (Lopetegui, Kilman and Potter) not because Moyes was brilliant.

When he has money to spend, he just buys more expensive versions of the average players he was buying on a modest budget. He has never demonstrated a long-term plan to bring in the exceptional players required to win trophies or compete.

He is a good fit for us now because we are not a well-resourced top club.

You and I had more chance of being struck by the same bolt of lightning as we ever (at any stage of this season) had of being relegated. That was just hysterical hyperbole being spouted by people who just couldn't wait to press the panic button.

We were never in the relegation zone and none of the Bottom 3 teams were ever going to get more than 30 points – 13 more points would have secured our safety… with or without Moyes.

The three clubs promoted from the Championship have languished in the Bottom 4 all season. They will be relegated, just as the three promoted clubs the year before and just like the three clubs (whoever they may be) will be next season. The gulf has grown too great.

The scouting systems of the top tier teams will make damn sure that no Championship club will ever again be able to sign a group of players like Kante, Vardy and Mahrez.

Fair play to Moyes. He has gotten us safe a lot earlier than Dyche was going to do, but those screaming for him to be brought in have got what they wished for.

Moyes is the price we pay for hounding out Dyche We are stuck with him until the end of his contract. And to answer your question; I think yes. This is as good as it gets.

We'd have all been bored to tears if we had nil-nilled our way to safety under Dyche, but I believe 2-3 more months of him was a price worth paying in order to bring in an exciting new coach.

Firstly, a really good and thought-out article, that will no doubt spark some healthy debate.

I got fed up of Moyes first time around. The increasing playing down of expectation, as if he was throwing an umbrella up to cover himself. "Not my fault, I can only work with what I've got and the circumstances I'm in". That's not a direct quote, just a hypothetical one. Very defensive, which is his demeanour by nature, and we're seeing it creep back in of late.

And too close to Bill Kenwright. They played off each other like a tag team. Now I won't confess to know what was going on behind the scenes but, to a lot of supporters, that didn't matter. We were having expectation beaten out of us and to many, we didn't like that. Disrespectful.

A generation has grown up not knowing different and to expect less. That hurts me. Fortunately, there are enough of us around to encourage them that we can be better than that.

If we listen to those who may know more than me, he wants control over transfers, old school British manager style. But then dithers with indecisiveness in the transfer market. He allegedly had to be convinced to take John Stones.

You give fair credit to Dyche for his first two seasons, keeping us up under very difficult circumstances on and off the pitch. But this season, he lost the players, he lost the supporters, and he lost the will. He had to go.

The dying throws of Dyche's Everton tenure were excruciating to watch and the supporters had the life sapped out of them, even the most positive. Although I wouldn't admit it at the time or want to contemplate it, we were going down.

Enter Moyes.

I was hugely disappointed, bordering on dismay. I had tried to ignore the growing rumours. We were taking a step back, and not looking forward. I said it would be divisive… and it was. Those who had pined for his "homecoming" since he left in 2013 and those who, like me, thought it was a mistake.

The early signs were unexpectedly encouraging. We looked like a team that had had the weight lifted off their shoulders. Even the most cynical of us couldn't help give respect for the job being done.

It's stumbled a bit lately, with the initial job being practically all but confirmed. Yes, threadbare squad and limited resources, but the signs that old habits and reverting to type are creeping in. There is a saying about leopards that seems apt.

What can he do if given money and resources? That is yet to be seen. I once remember the pundits clamouring to suggest the same sentiment prior to his inevitable appointment as Sir Alex's successor at the then reigning Champions. Eight months later and it didn't end well. He seems to fail on the big stage. The proverbial underdog. Good when the heat of expectation is off.

If I could predict. I would think he deserves to start next season with backing from the club. But I don't think we can leave him in charge of player recruitment if he's not going to be around for too long. That needs a strategy from the recruitment team that is being put in place. Manager / Head Coach input, yes, but not control.

He has earned next season. I see it going one of a few ways. If the first half doesn't go well, he could be gone by December or January. He may see out the season, but not his contract.

I believe we may do what Liverpool did with Rogers, what Manchester City did with Hughes. If the opportunity arises that someone better is available, the owners may act… swiftly.

Moyes can stabilise us. He can maybe get us to be the best of the rest again. But that isn't for me. The long-term plan has to be Everton competing and challenging for trophies at the top of the table and in Europe. Dining at the top table.

By the way, Christine, minor point. You forgot Jake Branthwaite in your gems list!!

Thanks for the read.

The Terrifying Spectre of Moyes

The point also has to be made as to just how unacceptable to so many Moyes's appointment was then, why it has changed, and the demise of the club since then. The points made then were valid, it's our circumstances that have changed – not the ability of David Moyes. Context is a bitch sometimes. Read Lyndon's excellent editorial and ponder…

I think the first 6 games at the new Everton Stadium will be just as hard as we have faced this season. For us, there is no guideline to measure what the effect on the team will be in moving to a new home.

Surely it will feel like playing the first 10 games away from home — no matter how much the fans try to recreate the atmosphere of Goodison Park.

The extra 13,000 will increase the noise but will it increase the intensity that Goodison has always provided? I hope it is does and we get off to a good start regardless of who we play.

The other major thing that will affect our performance is: Can we add anyone of class to the squad? I will be surprised if we get in anyone apart from confirming Charly's transfer. That means we will be looking at extending some of the contracts that are expiring.

I'm sure I will be in the minority in saying that the two players who incur the most criticism — Doucoure and Harrison — should be kept!

What I base this on is the fact these two have been mainstays for the last 10 matches and, even when not in the starting XI, have come on unless suspended.

If they are good enough for Moyes to solidify our start in the new stadium, then who are we to disagree!

I'm not sure that either of them deserve the weekly criticism that they get. Mostly their negative factors are highlighted; here I will try to state their positives:

Harrison – fastest player on the pitch up and down. Excellent at carrying out Moyes's instructions, which seems to prioritize his defensive duties and support of the fullbacks.

Yes, he loses the ball… but is always ready to receive the ball and try to influence the game. Yes, he needs to score more goals!

Doucoure – even under Dyche, Doucoure was the obvious choice for playing off Beto. His size and running ability cannot be under-valued in the middle of the pitch. I would guess that he regularly runs further than any of the rest of our team.

Often, what Doucoure does without the ball is more important than what he does with it. Moyes has highlighted this in his last few press conferences. His height and size in both penalty areas contributes to the chaos that we usually see from corners these days.

So I won't be sad to see both of them offered an extension. I feel, with a fully fit squad, we will again be difficult to beat when we eventually kick off at the Everton Stadium!

"As Raymond points out, we don't really know how good he is, just how he's been in the past."

Wise words IMHO.

We can't predict the future by looking at the past.

I've tried it. LOL

On Harrison, being fast is a good attribute, but doesn't alone make you a good footballer. Remember Tony Daly for Aston Villa?

On top of those 12 games, Moyes previously had 518 to get us challenging again.

Difficult to beat? I don't like that term. Finding winning easy is a better approach.

I try not to stereotype, but it would be interesting to see a straw poll vote on this. It wouldn't be totally the case, but I would wager opinions would generally be split by generation.

Moyes is far from perfect, but surely even his biggest critic can see the massive difference to what we've been served up for the first half of this season?

I've seen enough to give him next season. Hopefully, with a few key signings and a fully fit squad.

Moyes spots potential signings miles better than Dyche, he did so at West Ham and he did so in his first tenure with Everton.

To even consider another managerial change this summer, especially with a very likely squad overhaul on the cards, would be insane.

I don't think it is exaggerating that at least 8 players who have been a part of the squad this season won't be here next season.

We don't need a change of manager yet again on top of that.

Therefore, if we can do what he did at West Ham when he had players like Rice, Bowen and peak Paqueta et al, it's progress.

If the club wants more than Moyes can do subsequently, then make that decision then. But let's stop harping on about 2002-13, for fuck's sake.

Surely that makes more sense rather than a straight 2½-year contract?

Gana Gueye has been my Player of the Season so far. His stats show he is one of the best defensive midfielders in Europe. His reading of the game more than makes up for any other limitations.

I did read the rest of your post btw. A very good read which I agree with, mostly.

At best, we will get another season but likely replacements are soon to be needed. Whilst the quantity of his tackling is undoubtedly brilliant, his overall game at 36 means his impact will diminish sooner than later.

Maybe over the hill is harsh but competing in the Premier League is cruel no matter how good you once were.

I look at the likes of Casemiro, Modric, Erickson etc… they are still going strong because they know how to squeeze every last drop out of their bodies.

If so, then yeah that's probably as good as it gets… with or without Moyes, if the current squad isn't improved considerably.

And regardless of opinions, Ashley Young.

Add Ronaldo to that.

Along with those you mention, a good example to young players.

Look after yourself and you can keep going with age being no barrier apart from adjusting your play.

“We have no money to spend without selling Branthwaite”.

Would you care to share your impeccable source for this juicy piece of insider knowledge? Or is this yet again a case of someone who knows next-to-nothing about anything that really matters inside the club giving an opinion without any evidence to back it up?

Like others on here, I was not happy when Moyes got the nod but I saw some logic in it. Now, I think that he should lead us into the dock next season.

I will admit that the last month or so has made me think more than twice, a dozen times perhaps, actually over 100 times, that the Moyes I was glad we got rid of is creeping back. I am concerned. But let's wait and see what happens over the summer and what Moyes has to work with from August 16 on and how he does.

My hunch is that he will continue to steady the ship – nothing wrong with that for one season – and we will end up 8th/12th.

Colin Crooks (20): “You [Christine: thanks for that link Christine] and I had more chance of being struck by the same bolt of lightning as we ever (at ANY stage of this season} had of being relegated. That was just hysterical hyperbole being spouted by people who just couldn't wait to press the panic button”.

I agree 100% Colin and said so all the way through late-autumn/winter chuckling at the posters trying to outdo each other with their doomsday language.

It is essential, I think, that Gana is given another year with us.

I feared we could go down without change but never tried to show it or believe it. Certainly not at the match.

I'm with you on Moyes, as I've said many times.

There's a difference now. If we sell Branthwaite, it will be a business decision and I'm confident these owners will get what they want or not deal.

Poker face time. No blinking first time, no more selling on the cheap because we have to. We can hold our nerve.

I have no idea, but I think funds to improve the squad will be available without the need to sell our best.

We have got various players, including Doucoure, who are out of contract. Should we expect them to run through walls now?

Then we have one or two who may fancy moving on who are under contract. So again, will they give their all? Probably not.

An injury could scupper a deal here or anywhere else for many of these players. Moyes steered us away from relegation pretty quickly but we were never going to make Europe, so we have a team more interested in next season and their next clubs than worrying whether we finish 13th versus 16th.

We have a lot of catching up to do and I'd be surprised if Moyes has a big kitty (ie north of €150m) to play with this summer (and in any case he's not usually good with a big budget).

Just to put this into context, Premier League net spend looks like this over the past few seasons:

2024/25

- over €200m (Brighton)
- over €100m (City, Spurs, West Ham, Ipswich)
- over €50m (Bournemouth, Saints)
- under €50m (7 clubs)
- positive net spend (5 clubs including us)

2023/24

- over €200m (none)
- over €100m (Newcastle, Burnley, Liverpool, City, Bournemouth, Man Utd, Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea)
- over €50m (Brentford, Palace, Villa)
- under €50m (4 clubs)
- positive net spend (4 clubs including us)

2022/23

- over €200m (Chelsea, Man Utd)
- over €100m (Wolves, Spurs, Saints, Arsenal, West Ham, Newcastle, Forest)
- over €50m (Leeds, Villa, Liverpool, Bournemouth, Fulham)
- under €50m (3 clubs)
- positive net spend (4 clubs including us)

I agree Danny: "I have no idea, but I think funds to improve the squad will be available without the need to sell our best".

It's driving me nuts but this morning I saw a headline that our financial state was at long last back to a good place. I thought I bookmarked it and now, needless to say, I can't find it.

From TFG's point of view, I guess they can look at it like this: they could sanction a net spend of more than €150m and possibly finish between 6th and 12th. Or they can sanction a net spend of about €50m and finish between about 8th and 14th.

So far, it has worked very well. If only he would raise his sights, and refrain from making comments like those about the gulf between us and the rs, or his ambition for us to be “competing to qualify for Europe”.

Let’s try and win a trophy.

David, I wasn't criticising, just commenting. Like you and keep doing so.

We're moving into a new era.

For me the benchmark are the stories I was brought up on and what I witnessed.

I'll never let my expectations for Everton drop lower than that.

Like all of us, Ive experienced the genuine good times and I've been there through the depths of despair, but the belief never wavers.

I'm no super fan, but it never has and never will. For me it was and is a birth right.

Spent hardly anything at Everton
Not much at United
Nothing at Sociedad
Sunderland were a basket case
West Ham he had that dope of a Director of Football with him

I didn’t want Moyes back but once his appointment was announced I came to terms with it because I felt we were going down under Dyche and that Moyes might possibly prevent that happening.

Since then my feelings have gone from depression, to relief, to surprise, to expectation, and then to a niggling disappointment that we didn’t get more from our last two games. I’m greedy I suppose.

I think he will see us into the new stadium and stabilise us mid table next season. I will settle for that, however, after that I wan’t someone who will take us to the next level.

One last thing, call me old fashioned but I wish he wouldn’t bring his coffee into his pre match conferences. It makes him look too comfortable.

But, in the end - Moyes will be Moyes.

I don't think that I ever came up with a £150M upper estimate for, I imagine, a transfer kitty? I don't know anywhere near enough for that. But it is my view (hope?) that money will be made available over and above what we bring in from player sales. And we will have to buy, needless to say, because of non-renewals and that could include, sadly, waving goodbye to JB (although a bit of me thinks that he would love a season at the dock).

I agree about Harrison and Doucoure but they are very much in the Moyes mould of player. I honestly would not rule out a low bid for Harrison with input from Moyes.

Ryan H (48): that is not all in your word "crap". An issue at West Ham (to be fair, in full disclosure, this is talking to Irons friends) was apparently that Moyes would not accept the "classic" DOF model (was this his first longish full exposure to it?) and wanted a say in transfers. If you listen to Moyes talking about the players who came in under his management he seems to use "I" and "we" fairly interchangeably.

This new arrangement at Everton is also, I suspect, in part DM's doings.

Never a truer word spoken.

Colin #32, I agree with your point, but I would suggest not listing Casemiro as a player who is "going strong" where any ManUnited fan can hear you. You might have to duck a flying beer glass. (Besides, he's a mere child of 33.)

Kieran #37, I wish Doucs would stop running through walls and find the doorways a bit more often!

Pete #42, amen, brother.

I had to kill my first take so let me just state Moyes might be alright given the condition of squad and the need for a rebuild. My impression is Dyche was getting results by being a hard ass, possibly a bully, and when his pressers got weird we were on the edge of disaster. I believe he would have escaped in the most cynical way but it would have been a close call. The toll on the club, fans and squad would be a weight on any start by even the most dynamic managerial candidate.

Sadly, I am making peace with 'the Dave' thing. Am I suffering from post traumatic Dyche syndrome?

There are very few top managers in the world as evidenced by the influx of failed so called supermanaagers.

Even Carlo said he was not a magician with a squad that was arguably better than what Moyes inherited especially when you consider the injuries he has had to contend with.

Im all for ambition and have seen the great sides of the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

Our time will come again as long as we are all united behind the manager and the players and not carping and moaning for better.

Fair enough, you've put forward your case for the defence. His transfer activity at Manchester United was about £70m on two players, so he did spend relatively big.

He also spent a fair wedge at West Ham on both his tenures. To point the finger at a DoF is probably not quite accurate. Knowing Moyes, he will have wanted a say, most likely the final say, on transfers.

That's where it will get interesting to see what his remit is within our new recruitment structure.

I get that some will want him to prove those who doubt him wrong, but many remain doubtful as to whether he is the one who can meet future expectations.

Jay @57, there will be managers out there. Ones we've never heard of. Who had heard of Brighton's 31 year old manager before he was appointed? Who had heard of Pochettino before he turned around Southampton and then took Tottenham to the Champions League and a final? I'll be honest, I hadn't.

Manchester City, under their current owners took a stepping stone approach with several managers on the path from Mark Hughes to Guardiola, winning trophies along the way.

So, back to Moyes. I don't think there is much criticism. There is genuine respect for turning us around, with concerns creeping in that he's still the same.

It won't be the same squad soon. So the question is what can he do with that? Or what could someone else do?

For me and others, we don't see him as the head coach to take us to the level we want to be at.

At Man Utd, Moyes bought Mata (42m) and Fellaini for fees (£30m). That was in 2014. If you were to buy comparable players from other Premier League clubs now these would be £70m to £100m players.

At West Ham, he oversaw the transfers of:

- Paqueta €43m
- Kudus €42.90m
- Scammaca €38.60m
- Alvarez €38m
- Zouma €35m
- Aguerd €35m
- Ward-Prowse €34.80m
- Vlasic €30m
- Benrahma €23.1m
- Bowen €21.30m
- Cornet €20.70m
- Mavropanos €20.00m

West Ham's budget and wage bill during his tenure there was just a few million shy of Villa and Liverpool over the same period (and over a hundred million more than next on the list, Wolves). His transfer budget there was more than double what Everton invested over the same period.

Compared to the much more imaginative business that DoF driven clubs like Brighton, Bournemouth, the RS etc have been doing - Moyes does have a track record of (a) spending a big budget badly and (b) failing to put in place a long term plan to secure and develop exceptional (Champions League standard) players.

I’m just watching Ruud Van Nistleroy facing the press after a record breaking 8th home defeat on the trot. I seem to remember people on here saying that’s the brave sort of move we should’ve gone for when Dyche was still here.

Southamptons manager has been sacked - another we were linked with. Potter is doing “meh”, possibly worse…

I wanted Dyche out, I wasn’t clamouring for Moyes in, but definitely Dyche out. If by “we got what we wish for” means “we got better” then thank you David Moyes. I really can’t understand the underlying animosity in some peoples posts. We are undeniably better since he came in.

On saying that IF we get the chance to bring in Iraola I would hate to miss out. I’m hoping Moyes’ deal is flexible on that count but I wouldn’t be upset if he gets another season to “bed us in” at BMD.

Christine, I pretty much agree with your player assessment and agree with others re Gana Guaye, but I disagree that James Tarkowski is a “journeyman”. I think he’s been exceptional and almost as vital to our defence as Pickford has been. On saying that, teams with “older” centre backs seem to be a thing of the past so I’d like to see a Branthwaite and Obrian partnership in the near future.

I’ll repeat - I’m NOT a Moyes acolyte BUT there’s no denying he’s improved us since he came in. Even the “poor performance” against Arsenal was a vast improvement on games such as the home game v Fulham, for example.

Moyes in until an exciting young coach, Iraola please, actually is feasible.

UTFT

THIS Laurie, exactly!
UTFT

Moyes finished in two good campaigns for West ham in 6, 7, 9th and prioritised a European win at the expense of 14th that season. Is that better than what Brighton, Bournemouth, Wolves, Brentford have achieved over the 4 years that significantly exceeds that?
Did anyone genuinely expect him to take West Ham into champion league territory with the basket case ownership and a club thsts achieved precious little in its history?

Some of those signings are very good - Bowen, kudus, paqueta. Some didn't work out but appeared good players in Zouma, Scammaca, benerahma, in most cases hes sold quickly and got some money back quickly. If we'd have been linked with them, we'd been happy to have signed them in am sure.

And some were poor when they've done the old trick of squandering the Rice money like Bale, in the same way we bought 3 number 10s. Add in an east European that doesn't settle and that's the pretty much the picture.

And if, like West Ham, our spending kept pace with that of the RS over an extended period I expect our fans would expect the same sort of return.

For the time being I think Moyes is a very sensible appointment and it's hard to knock his unexpectedly positive impact.

I make these points though to debunk the myth that he has always operated on a shoestring and is some kind of transfer guru.

Mine was a wet finger in the air!!

I'll throw another name out there, one I have before. The German-Croat, Terzic. I'm not sure what he's up to now, but in his two short stints as first team assistant coach at Dortmund before taking the hot seat and guiding them to a DFB Pokal (German FA Cup) and Champions League Final.

For those who insist on Premier League experience being a key criteria (I don't), he had two seasons as Slaven Bilic's assistant at West Ham. He's still only 42.

I was also keen on Nagelsmann when he was at RB Leipzig, but that was hopeful thinking and he went to Bayern Munich. Now busy managing the German national team, but may at some point want back into club management.

Random point. Why do we say Bayern Munich? Half and half translation. Bayern Munchen (German), Bavaria Munich (English). Sorry, the little things bug you!! Irrelevant.

But, for now, we have Moyes, so let's hope in his time with us, he can improve us to the best of his ability.

We’ve gone from utter dogshit to the 5th best team since he joined us. That’s happened with a squad that was even more threadbare than the one his croaking predecessor threw the towel in as a result of.

“Is this as good as it gets with David Moyes?” The answer to anyone with at least half a fucking brain is “no”! West Ham’s achievements demonstrate that very, very clearly. And I say that as someone that didn’t really want him back.

What I’d give for European silverware and consistent top 6 finishes.

Moyes is a very good fit for our current situation - and should help to build a stable squad of decent players and return us to the top 10 or thereabouts next season.

Mate on a side note does your phone, laptop not a £ key. we don't spend euros here. Sorry for being an arse

It might look it now, but at the time, I told the wife that was a huge gamble her club was taking on an unproven top flight player for the price they paid (over £30M if I recall).

I was proven wrong. It just shows you, every transfer is a gamble. Some come off, some don't.

Will be a fascinating summer ahead.

I know TW well which means I also know the predilection for many posters to revert to type when it comes to certain subject matter (Moyes, Kenwright etc) There are some on here with a hair-trigger, just waiting for the moment when a poor run of form means they can trot out their cut-and-paste anti-Moyes rants. There’s a certain irony that the same people accuse him of being unable to change his approach.

The future is not something any of us can predict, has already been written on this thread but, I think one thing that you can definitely predict is that Moyes, has a lot of experience in the league and he can definitely set up a team that will be able to get into the top half.

His cautious nature is probably what worries a lot of knowledge fans, but for others who have never known anything better than David Moyes, coming sixth is heaven.

To judge Moyes now then he obviously deserves a lot of credit, but he’s always been very good at beating the teams you would expect to beat, and to be fair to him he seems to have rejuvenated the football club.

I saw the old David Moyes on Saturday, with regards the way Everton performed, and I probably wasn’t alone, with regards people who still remember the glass ceiling, (not in the league, but losing at Wembley to Liverpool and at Goodison to Wigan, in one off games?) but being fair to David, he hasn’t inherited a great squad.

Reading back I think if it’s true that Moyes prioritised winning a trophy over coming seventh Ian@66, then maybe he’s learned and he will be the man to end our incredibly embarrassing trophy drought 🤞

1. How well has Moyes done? 12 games.
Moyes - 18 points - Scored 18 Goal Diff +5. Shots 117 and 52 on target.
Last Season in those games - Dyche 12 points - Scored 12 Goal Diff -6. Shots 152 and 50 on target.

I reckon that is an improvement all around. And more efficient at putting the ball in the net.

2. We could have been relegated. Not a chance. Colin #20 is 100% correct.
Our comparative performance to last year (when we gained 48 points) has never put us lower than 39 (when we lost in Moyes first game!).
Southampton made it to 18 which was +3 compared to Sheff Utd - they are now -1
Ipswich made it to 31 which was +7 compared to Burnley - they are now +3
Leicester made it to 29 which was + 3 compared to Luton - they are now -7

Those relegated clubs have not significantly out performed the relegated clubs to even indicate they would survive. They needed to be in the +15 territory. Wolves were the ones in danger but the last 4 games have seen them improve on 2023-24 and asks the question - when we went for Moyes, should we have gone long term with Pereira?

3. On the results of last season for the remaining games, we will finish 16th with 46 points.
We have left
Southampton (h), Ipswich (h), Forest (a) win
Newcastle (a), Fulham (a) draw
City (h) Chelsea (a) defeat.
Can't see much chance of improving on that.

I remember Everton being ready to push on to the next level when Moyes was given all the money we received out of the sale of Lescott.

Distin, was a more than adequate replacement for the man who we had just sold imo, but then Hietenga and Bilyletdinov, (allegedly on the words of other people?) never made a blind bit of difference at all, and the chance to really improve was squandered.

Nobody is perfect in the transfer market though, but when you have got less money you tend to be more safe, picky and cautious (which is probably why David, picked up that very unfair “dilatory” title) and I think this served David Moyes well, over the years.

I'm grateful for what he initially achieved first time out, but then got increasingly frustrated, for the reasons Tony calls out. Maybe not all him, but he just isn't the manager to take us to where we want to be in my opinion. And that view is not with any malice towards the man.

He deserves credit for what he has turned around with limited playing resources since January, but we are seeing old methods return. I don't expect to win every game, but I expect to compete. Six games without a win (five draws and a narrow defeat).

The majority on here are disputing the past or the present Moyes when it comes to his suitability to take us to the level we want to be at. They are looking to the future beyond next season. First, Moyes never won anything in 11 years.

It depends on expectation. Everton should be looking to challenge for and win trophies, including the Premier League. I hope he gets one for us next season to break our embarrassing 30-year trophy drought.

No need for insults — although I am fairly sure Christine will just shrug and say "Whatever, knobhead!"

They usually say "Yes, he has done well… but." Someone suggested that Doucoure and Harrison were both Moyes type of players; yes Harrison is very like Pienaar (not) and Doucoure is like Cahill (again not).

There are some posters saying he might get us to be the best of the rest but complain that's not good enough. I know Robert has done a list of what the Top 6 are spending; we could only dream of having that budget in the next couple of years. So, given what we have had to endure over the last few years, I will gladly accept a Top 10 place.

We have under Dyche seen some of the worst football this club has played in decades. He constantly told us he was getting the best out of this group — clearly not. When asked about our lack of goals, he suggested the club had that same problem well before he arrived — as if that exonerated him from trying to change it.

He always in press conferences referred to us as 'E'verton' or 'this club'; thankfully, Moyes says 'we' or 'us'. This might not matter to many but I feel as if Moyes gets what this club is about and Dyche never did.

Now the moaners are speculating how soon before he gets sacked, one poster suggesting he might not get past Xmas. Wow — you wouldn't want some of these in the trenches with you!

Finally, with only 3 games left at Goodison and still yet to hear from the club over how they intend to celebrate the last game at Goodison, it would be nice to hear from the club over their plans.

As for being sacked by Christmas, doubtful but not out of the realms of possibility. I hope not, as that will mean we're not progressing and in the shit again.

I think even the most hardened Moyes advocates know he won't be here too long, so discussion has been to the future.

As for the Southampton game, all that's been announced is a 90-minute application for a licence to continue to serve alcohol in the ground after the match. Hopefully, with supporters able to take drinks back to their seats, but no mention of that.

Before the match, I've not seen anything. According to the 1878s, the Ipswich fixture will be the last banner display at Goodison, this time planned for all 4 sides of the stadium. I don't know if that will change for Southampton.

I watched on Saturday; I'm not stupid, I knew we had played a very hard game on Wednesday night and I know Arsenal are second in the table. (They didn't really look like they wanted to be at Goodison on Saturday, IMO.)

But I just saw a performance I have witnessed so many times before under Moyes, and when I look for genuine improvement, I usually assess this by performance over results, if I'm being honest, Brian.

It actually won't bother me if David Moyes stays, because when I look at Goodison now compared to Goodison under Dyche, then I think it's like comparing night to day. We have also gone toe to toe with the league leaders twice in the last month, despite our obvious limitations.

But, I can also understand the people who believe we can't have a new beginning, with a limited and cautious manager (this obviously depends on what you want for Everton) who has been here before?

The most important thing is not who the manager is going to be next season but how much money Moyes (because I think it would be stupid to get rid of him now) is going to get to spend.

If the net spend is much lower, then it is hard enough to stand still let alone improve – irrespective of manager.

In comparison to Dyche, he has lifted the players, got points on the board, and all but ensured safety. A job well done, no question about it. It's what I hoped and what I expected.

After the past few years, any stability is welcome but I don't want to get the "Best of the Rest" label again. I said earlier in the comments, David Moyes hasn't changed; we have...

If we could pay top dollar for Europe's elite, we wouldn't attract them. They will go to clubs in the Champions League or other European competition.

Not bargain basement, but the model RB Leipzig used several seasons ago. Steady progress and continuous improvement each window until we get to being able to compete and then attract the top players.

We won't get there quick, but we can. In the meantime, we just want to see performances.

Even though I wasn't alive, I always love the quote from Sir John Moores. Not the full statement, but "Everton expects success".

I think I wrote on numerous occasions that I thought Dyche was the worst manager I have ever seen at Goodison, and even the useless Mike Walker at least attempted to play football. You even say yourself, comparing Moyes and Dyche, it's like comparing night and day, so you're saying something very similar to me.

I know Dyche is a mate from your playing days at Forest and he may be a great fella; I just didn't like him managing us. I hated his football but not the man.

I don't know if Moyes can get us back into the top half next season but he has earned the right to try. As Robert often quotes, a lot depends on what transfer kitty he has to spend, but as he proved in the past he did buy some gems very cheaply; however, that might be a lot harder this time around.

I bet West Ham would take him back.

I'm much more concerned about who will be playing for us than who is picking the team. Robert's figures on our spend for the last 3 seasons tells its own story.

I think consolidation will be the main aim again for next season.

The – probably futile – question I see being asked is whether he is the right person in the long term. Like Robert, I have a few concerns about his spending at West Ham. Yes, they did well to achieve 6th and 7th and a trophy in Europe but they did spend a lot and it's interesting that, since he left, they have struggled.

Is that because they hired inferior managers? Or because he bought players who suited his present more than the club's future. Difficult to tell and, at any rate, not that much time has passed since he left.

He deserves credit for his return so far and will be here next season. Let's hope that the summer sees sensible recruitment that can help us both in the short- and long-term.

The one big wish from me: get Branthwaite to sign a new contract and make him one of our top earners; he's 23, a future England captain — it'll cost as much to replace him with fee + contract and they'd be nowhere near as good.

We were one place above the drop zone, playing dire defensive football when Moyes took over; we are now categorically in the Top 6 on form, and were without Calvert-Lewin, McNeil, Ndiaye and Broja, our most attacking threat, for most of that period. So I credit him for a superb job. I'm very optimistic for the first summer in years, with a state-of-the-art new Everton Stadium!

30 years without a trophy, 4 years of relegation battles, dysfunctional leadership, a club that went to the brink of bankruptcy, 2 PSR charges and absolutely terrible football.

I would suggest that the support of the fans through thick and thin has saved the club. It also gives them the right to comment on the club, the manager and anything they else they wish to.

David Moyes will be judged on results as every manager. But, fans will be patient with him if TFG are seen to prioritise the commercial and financial performance of rthe club over net spend on the squad. I think that is what they will do.

Seeing as you want to Mis-quote me. I will answer you directly and tell you what I actually said - " Those who screaming for him (Moyes) to be brought in have got what they wished for"

That sentence means exactly what it says. They got exactly what they wished for. Moyes is here. The manager. No point in calling for somebody else now.

I think you are looking to play the victim card a little too often if I'm honest.

Even though you say you didnt want Moyes. You insert the word "WE" when you misquote me... Why ? Was it in order for you to be the aggrieved party again ? all that "animosity"

for over 20 years Evertonians have put up with the lowest form of premier league entertainment. Manager after manager has served up safety first dross. No exceptions. After an initial bounce, Moyes has reverted to type. he is putting the faithful to sleep. If as you say. you think it is better. Then good luck to you.

This club is emerging from the darkest period in it's history and although we are safe and have been for some time. The safety first football served up in recent games has been identical to stuff we have been served up for decades. There is absolutely no need for it.

Most of the fans I know want a little bit better than the "better" you seem to be so content with

I go back to the twelve league games he has been in charge of since he came back especially those four wins which contributed twelve points to his total of eighteen points.

1 Spurs at home—a team that were more injury ravaged than Everton were, we won 3-2 after leading 3-0 and hanging on at the end to keep that lead.

2 Leicester City who were and continue to be battered by nearly every team.

3 Brighton away were we had one shot on goal ( a penalty) and played and defended like the much derided Dyche did to earn that very welcome win.

4 Crystal Palace. away——I’d say we were lucky to win that game adding that it came after a very good performance three days before v Liverpool so I wouldn’t be too hard on that win.

The eight games have produced six draws against Wolves, United, West Ham three clubs who are in around the same area of the league as Everton, two of those games at Goodison, they played Brentford away and the other two draws v Liverpool and Arsenal both at Goodison a very good game v Liverpool as I have said and a boring game v Arsenal second in the league but played with a depleted team and with one eye on a European game this week.

Every fan can have their own opinion on how they saw those games but I saw enough evidence from them to wait and see how we carry on in the remaining games before I make my mind up on Moyes’ future as our manager and yes the eleven and a half years he spent here as a bearing on how I see him, never mind some saying let those years be bygones.

The malaise and decline of Everton as a fighting force goes back decades and the problem sits deeper than the dugout.

It is British footballing culture to blame those on the front line, the players and coaching staff, who, in hindsight are the sacrificial lambs that "upstairs" use as a buffer zone.

Fortunately, there are enough of us around to have seen through it, how ever early or late to the party we were. And also, not have our expectations and standards for our club beaten out of us.

Back to Moyes. If the urban myth is true and he likes to control transfers, they as well as some gems, he's had some duds.

But name me a club / manager that hasn't had both.

I defended Dyche, because of the basket case of a football club we had descended into, but I think people have ego’s, and for whatever reason he seemed to fall out with the Evertonians, and maybe this was because he felt he deserved more respect?

I don’t know if this is actually true Brian, but not long before Dyche left, I had a discussion with a lad who travels everywhere and I think he was surprised when I disagreed with him when he said he didn’t think anyone else could do a better job than Dyche.

If I was to compare Dyche and Moyes, as football managers Brian, I would say that I think they might be similar in a lot of respects, but I now believe Dyche’s head had gone after managing Everton during some of the most “uncertain times in our history”, and going to Goodison, definitely became a chore for a lot of Evertonians, hence my description of night and day.

Moyes is a Mr Average, imo, but so is the premier league in a lot of ways, depending on how you view it, and like I have said I definitely believe Moyes knows his way around from the middle to top half of this league.

The pressure of doing that for a couple of seasons told on him and while I was totally unhappy with the style of football the man ran the football club on his own with no support and still managed to keep us up.

I feel the fans frustration and impatience to be back at the top winning things is bringing extra pressure on the manager and players.

I have always maintained that you have to create the conditions for players and managers to operate in and a big part of that is the support.

Look at the difference in performance when we had the flares and the coach greetings and a rampant Goodison,

Now we are safe I feel the atmosphere has not been the same and expectations have risen for a squad of players that are incapable of rising to the levels we need and want. In fact imo we have three players that other teams would want and that's about it. I will leave other posters to decide who the three players are but that is the extent of our current squad.

More to the point than the manager, I believe, is our talent, or lack thereof. I have been vocal for years about the lack of pace and skill in the side, and I continue to consider us the slowest team in the league. The other clubs around us in the table have five or six players with real pace (Spurs have even more). We have maybe three -- Dom, Beto and Jarrad. Other clubs have multiple players with genuine skill on the ball, but for us Ndiaye is the only one (although O'Brien has startled me a few times!), at least until McNeil comes back.

We've survived by having a fantastic keeper, an excellent defensive core and the Everton fighting spirit nurtured in turn by Lampard, Dyche and now Moyes. We can now legimately expect better. Robert #62 points out that at West Ham, Moyes brought in Bowen, Kudus and Pacqueta among others. He has nobody even close to that level of quality to work with now, but clearly our new owners intend to give him that opportunity.

And only then will we really know if he has the ability to maximize success or whether he is, as Tony says, simply a Mr. Average.

I've been a Blue since I was around 10 years old, that's 40+ years now. Back then we were duelling for titles each year with the shower across the park and were justifiably one of the leading lights in the British game based upon our squad, success, comparative wealth and proud history.

Since the title win in 86-87 however, there was a steady decline (4th, 8th, 6th, 9th, 12th in the league) up to the formation of the breakaway Premier League in 1992. After which this decline became something of a plummet as we dropped from mid-table also rans to perennial relegation strugglers (13th, 17th, 15th, 15th, 17th, 14th, 13th, 16th, 15th) with only Joe Royle's brief dogs of war blip in 95-96 for a 6th place and FA cup win offering relief.

Of course, alongside this, was the financial mismanagement that led us into spiralling debts and every diminishing transfer funds at precisely the same point our big PL rivals were milking the league for every opportunity and growing staggeringly rich and powerful on the back of domestic and European competition.

So, that's a decade of decline and mediocrity, arguably more like 15 years if you compare to our incredibly high standards of the mid-80s. THIS was the baseline reality of the club in the PL era. Into which stepped one David Moyes, who, despite having no transfer kitty to speak of, managed to wrestle the team into one challenging for European places AND restore some pride to the 'Peoples Club'.

From his first full season (2002-03) the record runs:

7th, 17th, 4th, 11th, 6th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 7th, 7th, 6th

That includes 3 European qualifications, including our first ever Champions League slot, (albeit a short-run thing), and we were insanely unlucky not to have more - under the current setup that'd be 8/9 European runs!

Did we win any trophies?

A couple of cup runs certainly, but 'No'. Nonetheless, the platform had clearly been established for the club to build on - we don't know what would have happened if Dave had been given any real money, but I'd like to think it would've bought further progress.

When the Moyesiah took his ill-fated trip down the M62, Martinez carried the fight on, with his squad guiding us to 5th and another European slot in 2013-14, but then it fell away again. Under the Moshiri reign we had 10 different managers, vast amounts of transfer cash splurged and an ever decreasing return as we slipped from mid-tablers to relegation fodder once again: 11th, 11th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 8th, 12th, 10th, 16th, 17th, 15th...

And THAT is the real story of the last 30 years of Everton football club in the Premier League, post Kendall's late 80s glory - mid-table mediocrity and relegation battles, punctuated by a period of 'comparative' success with 8 seasons in the top 7.

I love this club madly, stupidly, passionately. It consumes way too much of my thought process, time and money. And yes, like many, I'm proud of the history when we were one of the very biggest clubs in the British game, if not world football. But that's what it is, history. The grand old lady was once one of the best stadia in the world also, but much as we love her, no one is going to make that claim today! We don't blindly expect that Goodison should be seen as a leading football venue, so why should we blindly expect that a vastly under-invested team should suddenly be the world beaters of 40 years ago? It's insane and it leads to the sort of crazy dissatisfaction when we actually do get some positive movement that this sort of post typifies.

So Moyes isn't 'good enough' for us? Has he earned a full season? Seriously? Give your head a bloody wobble!!!

Moyes record since he came in stands at 18 points from 12: 4 wins, 6 draws and just 2 defeats (the first of those coming in his first game and the second a very narrow reverse at Anfield) and a +5 goal difference.

That form is amongst the top 5 or 6 clubs in the division, and with a little more luck/finishing composure or fair refereeing (Brentford, United in particular), the record would look even better.

This from an inherited side that had only won 3 in its previous 19, was struggling to buy a goal and was largely without its previous first choice striker plus other top performers like McNeill and NDiaye.

Are we the finished article? Of course not.

But we are already playing much better than previously and have someone in charge who loves the club and genuinely seems to be revelling in being here. The new owners are not sentimental guys, I don't doubt for a second that they'll 'get rid' if results drop off or they don't see steps towards the future that the new stadium Moshiri built for us deserves.

But 'If you know yer (recent) history' then I honestly fail to see how you could do anything other than get behind the second coming of the Ginger One, let him have some cash and a full season to see if he can at least recapture the comparative glories of his previous reign and get us into the European slots. THEN we can dare to dream of looking further forward (or back)...

P.S. As a cautionary tale... West Ham thought that Davey wasn't maybe 'as good as it gets' for them also... after he'd guided them to successive top 7 finishes AND their first ever European trophy! They made a 'bold' change of direction...and are now on their second manager of the season and sitting a place below us in the table with a -17 goal difference.

I don't know how many times people have to say it, yes, he gets respect for what he's done since he came back, but he isn't the long-term future. That's all people are saying. He's an okay manager for stabilising and finishing top half.

Sounds like we're of a similar age and generation. No we weren't duelling with them each year, it was for an all-to-short, but fantastic 3 seasons.

No we aren't going to become world beaters overnight.

But can we compete in future? Yes we can. Ask Manchester City, Aston Villa and now, Newcastle, who dropped lower than we have done.

I just don't think Moyes is the person to lead us back to that place.

We should have redeveloped or left Goodison 30 years ago. It was dated then and has barely changed since. Instead, we arsed about, probably waisting money on the way, with the failed Kings Dock and Kirkby experiments.

We haven't had the players to seriously challenge the usual top clubs; until we do, we are a 8th to 14th level club.

Give Moyes better quality players and he is well capable of getting the best out of them.

The full video will be on the Everton Youtube channel from 6pm tomorrow (9th April).

His English is better than mine. Considering he grew up in France and has a Senegalese father, he sounds like he's from north London!!

As our American friends would say, though, I think we should 'cut Moyes some slack'. I would like to think he is using these games to see who he wants and who he doesn't.

While Moyes's return to Everton was met by the majority of fans with a sense of relief after the dour displays under Dyche, my initial reaction to his reappointment was that it showed a certain lack of ambition by the board. The decision to bring him back was made quite quickly and I do wonder who else was in the frame.

That being said, he got off to a flying start and those of us who had some doubts about his appointment were starting to think and believe again.

As it stands, Moyes is now at the helm before what will surely be a watershed summer for our football club. I would ignore the last few games of the season as they are practically meaningless. As I mentioned, this is all about the gaffer seeing who fits in and who doesn't.

As fans, I feel we have to back him for his experience alone but it's a big 3 months coming up.

I like David Moyes and I hope he turns us into the club we want – and I'm sure he wants it to be. Time will tell... but please hurry!!

We have got to go and find a few players with either flair or pace (preferably both) because I already think Dyche has laid the defensive foundations that are required!

So back him if you think he will revitalise the club. I hope he does and anyone who thinks fans — I stress that, fans — hope he fails don't understand that we also love this club with a passion and want the same as them no matter who is the manager.

So I think I am entitled to say let's wait and see and hope that Moyes has the ability to get us into a more successful era.

He needs several windows and the option to keep Brainthwaite. He needs time and patience. I think we have a different manager to the one who left us for Utd. He will I believe prove this over time.

"And what are the expectations of the new owners, TFG, and their vision going forward? Are they going to stick or twist?"

They are almost certainly going to "stick". Let's face it... we've done Chubby Checkers proud over the last decade and the outcomes have not been good.

Moyes has steadied the ship and that will be more than good enough for TFG at least in the short to medium term.

From Lyndon’s article: 24/11/2019

Lyndon:
“For those who believe that reconnecting Moyes with the club he managed for 11 years would have the desired effect of re-energising Everton and putting them back on the path towards the top six, reappointing the 56-year-old even on an interim basis might make sense. Indeed, the only way seeing Moyes walk back through the gates of Goodison as manager would be remotely palatable to the majority of Blues would be if it came with a cast iron, irrevocable guarantee that it would only be until the end of the season and no more.”

Tony Marsh:
"I can't stand David Moyes the football manager. Moyes I believe stamped his feeble negative mindset right through this club for 11years and we have never been the same since. Just as winning The Champions League/ European Cup is engrained in Liverpool DNA Everton have mediocrity and a losers mindset engrained in thier DNA. Moyes instilled this mindset. Knives to Gun fights and never beating a top side away from home etc.
Why anyone would consider a negative dour fool like Deadly Dave to rescue them I don't know. The White Flag would be waving as soon as he landed here. God help the team across the park next week with Moyes in charge. I can't type any more just thinking about this Moyes scenario is breaking me."

Dave A:
Moyes is patently obvious, to most of us, just not good enough to manage us. I will not watch Everton if he comes back, the thought of him back sickens me.

Colin Glassar:
Moyes comes, many will leave - for good!

Derek Knox:
There has been some mention of him being given another week, which beggars belief in my book, is he suddenly going to start picking the right combination of players, employing different tactics and substitutions?

Jay Wood (Brasil)
In his time since leaving Everton, Moyes continued to reveal his tendency to downplay expectations. As United manager, before playing Liverpool at Old Trafford, he declared the opposition went into the game as favourites. United lost. (That just reminded me of the Liverpool game last week CF)

Tony A.
“What respect would there be left if he came back to manage Everton.”
“I'd do a better job than Moyes, and think that Evertonians have forgotten how great our club could be. Fuck me alls you have to do is make Everton pragmatic and the fans will keep you in the top half of the table, and if you can add a bit of quality, then I'm sure those fans would definitely help you to win a cup?”
“Moyes thought he'd hit the big time when he got the United job, but for a man who had been involved in football for a long time, he didn't even realise that once he'd got the job he had to fucking win, probably because he'd been kidding the kidder, and doing a great job at plucky little Everton for years.
Everton, are ready to take off because the fans are fucking desperate, just get us a fire-starter and the fans will take care of the rest. Someone with heart, someone with pride, someone with desire and someone with fight, and someone who understands how fuckin* important the fans can be if you can just give them a team with all the above.”
Christine F: (me)
“Given the circumstances Moyes did a good job with limited finances BUT he used the club, stayed too long and burnt whatever goodwill he had. Never should he return. He is not despised, but he is dismissed as a candidate and rightly so.

Time they say is a great healer and many see the improvement we have had recently as being the light at the end of the tunnel. Has Moyes changed enough to take the chance on a longer term? or have we forgotten what it was like?

Yes he's a different Manager than he was 12yrs ago...how could he not be?

Moyes 1.0 is now overlaid with Moyes 2.0, but it hasn't gone away, it's still there.

Come back in exactly 2yrs show me I'm wrong and I'll shake your hand buy you a pint and admit I was wrong.

We have 13 players whose deals - permanent and loans - expire in June. I honestly expect the majority to leave. As Robert points out, the club have made a net profit from transfers in each of the last 3 seasons, so most saleable player assets apart from Pickford and Branthwaite have gone.

I do not expect TFG to end the summer with a net spend of 100 million, therefore stabilisation will still be needed. If Moyes is the man to do that, then many fans will agree but results will decide.

Is he the man to win trophies in the long run? His record says not, but no shame in that as he is in good company there alongside the 11 other permanent managers who have followed Joe Royle.

I don't think those who are critical of those who are questioning Moyes realise the deep running feelings he left a lot of the support base with.

That comment from Tony Marsh, in his own style, pretty much captures the sentiment of many on that side of the fence.

Add that to the manner of his departure, and some may be able to forgive, but not forget.

My biggest gripe was the style of football that was mostly witnessed last time out. Being fearful of the so-called top teams if we strayed from Goodison. Lowering expectation. I'd rather we big ourselves up, aim high and fail trying.

It is genuine concern that we are already seeing signs creeping back. If the investment comes in the next two windows, he has a chance to prove the cynics and doubters wrong. But given the history, patience will run out fairly quickly if there are not signs of sustained improvement

Now he is here, at least for 18 months, none of us want him to fail, but I don't want us going back to Moyes Mk 1.

That's a recipe for 10th, with only top recruitment that will unseat the clubs above it. Yes a manager plays their part, but it's players that win games and we are genuinely short of top players we'd put in top 9 rival sides.

We are currently behind the likes of Palace, Brentford, Bournemouth, Brighton, Fulham, as it is. And you'd expect United and Spurs to get their act together. Added to Liverpool, city, Arsenal, a well run Newcastle, Villa and forest, Chelsea = 9.

That's a long list to fight past to get into a league position we all want, and elbow teams out of cups. Id say it's a lot harder than the big 4 challenge that he faced last time around.

He's always a manager that will keep it tight, and he's always a manager that will play it down. That might upset a few, but I'd rather that than the fake bullshit you had from a Martinez when it was plain as day.

He's overcoming 5 years of deep neglect at the club with his hands tied behind his back with Psr still in place following the failure of the previous 8 managers.

My gauge is he will do a slightly better job than he did at West Ham. That wasn't enough for some fans at West Ham, I'd expect won't be enough for some here either.

That's probably the most depressing post I've read on this, or any other forum. For me you encapsulate everything that is wrong with this club. You have had your expectations managed and now you are trying to manage everybody else's - That's not happening.

You may love this club "madly", "stupidly" and even "passionately" but aside from being able to reel of the clubs record over the past 20 years you don't seem to understand it. Evertonians do not (as you falsely claim) suddenly "expect to be world beaters". You wont find a post on this or any other forum to substantiate such a foolish claim. We're are really quite easily pleased. Give us a team to be proud of. A team which will go out to win. Entertain. Compete. We want to go to the match knowing our manager hasnt already settled for a draw. These are not exactly "wildly out of kilter" expectations. These things should be a given. Unfortunately we have been deprived of such basic ambition for so long, many (like you) seem to believe we have no right to expect them. That's why Everton managers get away with achieving so little.

You go through the records trying to prove that a recent poor past makes immediate improvement out of the question, but in the period you speak about we have seen teams like Brighton, Bournemouth, Forrest and Newcastle all go passed us. Portsmouth,Wigan,Leicester,Newcastle,Birmingham,Swansea and Middlesbrough have lifted trophies while we have stood empty handed. ALL of these clubs are smaller than ours. All of them come from even worse financial situations than we have been in.

Davey Moyes is the master of expectation management and you clearly buy into his rhetoric, but rather than exaggerate the expectations of ambitious fans (after telling them to "give their heads a bloody wobble"). Why don't you look at what a little expectation and ambition can achieve ?

Tony Abrahams - "I think some Evertonian`s have forgotten how great this club can be". Painfully accurate

'He has failed at a number of clubs before seeing limited success at West Ham, and even they were unhappy with his football.'

Appreciate your comments and I also have some general doubts about his overall football tactics but his limited success did include a European trophy, granted not the most glamorous of trophies, but still a trophy. West Ham will have finished high enough in the league to warrant their European place.

Personally, I am happy to see David Moyes walk out at the new stadium. Perhaps, given some time, he can work his magic with purchases and blend a team capable of giving the top teams a run for their mobey home and away

I know I am cherry picking..and I understand the point you are making but out of the teams you mention that are all smaller than us that have won trophies fairly recently, how many of those are likely to be in the Premier League next season..if being in the PL is a measure of success, then we are reasonably successful. Of course, that shouldn't be the measure of success, otherwise it's low expectations.

Would obviously love us to be win something and be in the PL.

Onwards and upwards at the new stadium, with a bit of sideways thrown in. It's the Everton way.

Back to Christine’s original question “is this as good as it gets with DM”. Probably not quite - I think it will get a little bit better but not much.

I respect what Brighton, Bournemouth and Brentford have achieved recently. Yes, they have been well run recently. It wasn't always the case. But when I hear Evertonians even suggesting for one micro-second they are now bigger clubs than Everton, it really gets under my skin. Currently outperforming us on the pitch maybe, but they are light years behind us in terms of size and stature.

Everton are a massive club with massive potential. Unfortunately the malaise and promotion of "People's Club", "Plucky little Everton" and one of the favourites "Good Times" has beaten a lot of our supporters into submission in an almost hypnotic way to actually believe and accept it.

Fortunately there are enough around to refuse that the best we should expect is 7th.

Colin @120 says it for me.

To Tony's point, I've said many times when our club wins something, the footballing world and this city won't know what's hit it.

In late January or early February, Moyes got us closer to European places than the relegation zone in terms of points. But now the breaks have come on. There is no reason or excuses that we can't push for European qualification next season in my opinion.

Flak for failing to achieve what we expect isn't unique to this forum John. For years, frustrations have grown in the way the club has been ran and the team managed and been aired by Evertonians, who probably don't come on here. I don't think you can label that type of accusation at TW contributors alone.

Managers from lower leagues?

Fabian Hurzeler, the young Brighton manager hasn't done too bad. Previously managed an amateur Bavarian team in the German Regional leagues. Went to Bundesliga 2 St Pauli. They can be considered lower leagues. He got St Pauli promoted to the Bundesliga before moving to Brighton.

Eddie Howe first managed Bournemouth in League 2 and League 1. A stint at Burnley in the Championship. Rejoined Bournemouth in League 1, winning promotion to the Championship and Premier League, where they became well established until he suffered relegation.

Thomas Frank at Brentford, who I really like. Okay, he was at Brondy, a household name for those who follow European football, but the Danish League could be considered a "lesser league".

I purposely used those 3 examples, as they are the ones a lot of people refer to as good examples. The point being, they are out there in lower and lesser leagues and they can succeed in the right environment. It doesn't always have to be the usual suspects or going back to the past.

The traditional big 4 / big 6 has given way to something like this:

First tier: City, Chelsea, Man utd, Arsenal and the RS

Second Tier: Newcastle, Spurs, Villa and West Ham

Third Tier: Forest, Bournemouth, Palace, Wolves, Brighton

Fourth Tier: Everton Brentford Fulham

Fifth Tier: Promoted clubs

At the moment we are a 12th to 17th quality side - personally I reckon 15th or 16th on paper. Due to resources it is entirely possible that around 12 or more clubs who already have better squads than us will spend more than us too.

That is our challenge.

Not really anything to do with the manager.

Forest look like they will be playing champions league football next season, so why not Everton?

We might look light years ahead but we have just gone toe-to-toe with the league leaders twice and gave a very good account of ourselves in both games, so if we can add a few players with more quality, then why not Everton?

I’ve said I expect Moyes to be our manager next season and I don’t have any real problem with this, but I think a lot of the concerns around David, did come to the forefront against Arsenal.

Why? We got a draw against the second place team, and we had only got off the pitch at Anfield, 62 hrs earlier, after a very tough game against Liverpool.

I said earlier in this thread that it looked like Arsenal didn’t want to be at Goodison, on Saturday, and I think the gunners proved this last night?

We need to sign a few good players, because this will hopefully drag a few of our inbetweeners, up to a higher level, and we definitely need a stronger squad to cope with the rigours of a very physically demanding league.

I am lucky enough to be one of those that saw us under all the managers who won us trophies from 1955 onwards, and I noted your comment about not accepting 7th place as the best we should expect. So I thought I would look back over the last 40 to 50 years to see how many times we have been higher than 7th.
2012/13 5th Martinez
2004/05 4th Moyes
1989/90 6th Harvey
1987/88 4th Harvey
1986/87 1st Kendall
1985/86 2nd Kendall
1984/85 1st Kendall
1978/79 4th Lee
1977/78 3rd Lee

So that's 9 times we have bettered 7th in the league in 50 years.

However, he was a loyal and hardworking servant to our great club for many years. He has come back a different man and manager, he has shown how much he loves the club.

What I struggle to understand the subtleties of bud is why are people feeling the need to keep dredging it up. Why start a war when there isn’t one? What purpose does it serve for Christine (whose opinion I typically value greatly) to ask these questions right now off the back of a ship steadying run and one loss in 10? All it does is call out for noise that at this moment in time is utterly pointless.

Judge him after a few windows. We have the biggest squad rebuild job this club has potentially seen for many many years. He has an eye for a character and has proven himself to be a steady hand in the transfer market. Sure, many will point to poor signings but a steady pair of hands for 2 1/2 years sounds perfect to me.

Are some seriously saying that the projected 7th in 2 years is not good enough? Jeez. I’d bite your hand off and take that all day. We all know the plan needs to be for him to hand over a steady ship and squad to a more progressive talent then.

Sorry, I just don’t understand the need to keep dredging it all up. He is here, he is doing a fine job and there is no need to question him until he is not doing a fine job. Let’s get behind him.

As I said earlier, for a number of reasons, not because he left, but how he left. He'd stayed too long anyway in my opinion if we were to move on, but the club had no ambition beyond what he was giving us. Others simply don't rate him as a manager who can take us where we want to be. He get's his chance, but if someone becomes available, I am not sure he will see out his contract.

Forest were mentioned. The nearly got relegated in the first two seasons after coming up and went into this season as one of the favourites for the drop. Champions League beckons.

Villa likewise, survived by the skin of their teeth (1 point) in their first season back. A couple of lower half finishes, 7th and now playing in the Champions League.

We've had 3 seasons of our 16th and 17th finishes, flirting with the trap door, so progression next season would be 7th, not in 2 years.

John, it's what people like to do. It is an opinion, not thinking they know better. I personally don't, other than recently suggesting Alcaraz should start in a central position and Jake O'Brien will eventually move to his natural position of centre back. That's not me playing football manager, just expressing an opinion.

It's also why it's not in the managers control - its in Friedkins etc

Steve - if it’s all about money (it is) how are they not being impacted by FFP? Forest can’t be generating more revenues than Everton and Villa can’t be that much ahead although will be now given CL money (= springboard). Newcastle also benefitted from that. Everton have also been a few years in the black with transfers. The stadium build has very unfairly impacted the club - but again, we are scapegoats for all things Premier League when we should have been telling the gobshites where to go. “Oooh Everton are building a stadium, how can we fuck them over?”. You don’t hate Masters and the PL enough!

I would say it’s two things; one is a bit of luck (intangible) and two is being much better run/managed club with some ambitions (tangible). But no one predicted Forest would be 3rd in the league.

You could have bought both Forest and Villa outright with the money Walsh and Brands squandered on fee's and wages

Top half next year will be walking. At least it will put a few cardiac surgeons on Merseyside out of work.

The reality of the situation is Moyes needs to get past the middle clubs of Fulham, Palace, Brentford, Brighton and Bournemouth, and start making an impression on those other 9 clubs next season. If that's an 8th-10th, then it's progress coupled with defeats a long the way, then that's the right progress if there's younger players being blooded.

Can it be done. Yes, Liverpool, Forest, Villa and Newcastle have shown a good quality manager given time and good recruitment can make things happen if everyone pulls in the same direction.

Spurs, Everton, United have shown that despite spending vast sums it isn't easy, or guaranteed, and can lead to a cycle of failure.

Villa are rumoured to be in trouble for a deliberate breach.

There's allsorts of speculation but the reality is, we don't know how much we will or won't spend.

Not specific to you r post Ian, but tthe bigger club than us now gets wheeledwhen it's more that they are performing better on the pitch. For now.

I can only really speak for the Premier League era because I cannot remember further back but at no point have we been competitive financially with the richest teams. Indeed for stretches (including recently) we've struggled to remain solvent. It's no coincidence that our league position has suffered.

Moyes has 4, kendall 3, martiez 1, Harvey 1, Lee 2, royle 1.

2013/14 - 5th

2012/13 - 6th

2008/09 - 5th

2007/08 - 5th

2006/07 - 6th

2004/05 - 4th

1995/96 - 6th

1989/90 - 6th

1987/88 - 4th

1986/87 - 1st

1985/86 - 2nd

1984/85 - 1st

1978/79 - 4th

1977-78 - 3rd

1974-75 - 4th

It's not like their relative success has been achieved on a shoe string.

we also finished 4th in the 74/75 season

We have finished 7th a further 6 times in last 50 years.

Just checked that list again and David Moyes did have us finishing better than 7th on 4 occasions 2012/13, 2008/9, 2006/7. 2004/5
I also think I missed off Joe Royle who finished 6th in 1995/96.

People who quote transfer fees also need to quote wages to which I understand to be a bigger indicator of where a club finishes ( on average)

If we go for the outdated traditional Mike Bassett, England Manager approach, then it's the Manager.

If it's a DoF, then he or she is accountable.

If it's this talked about recruitment team, then it's them.

It doesn't matter who it is.

Using Brighton (again), it didn't matter when they parted ways with Potter and brought in a new Head Coach (that's what they are). The structure was in place, so the transition was seamless.

The DoF / Sporting Director model is now used by most clubs as it provides the continuity and long-term vision that managers, who come and go, don't.

Why give the decisions and purse strings to someone who is unlikely to be here beyond 2027?

Reading on here also reminded me of the bloke on Teamtalk (another site at the time?) that we should be aiming for a 10th place finish to which I replied that his answer was mediocrity but presently Moyes might be worth another season but again just until the ship has been steadied at least financially, or is it already under TFG?

Then comes the question of how we find the bloke doing well at Sheff Wed in the 2nd Division or that young manager at York then Blackburn who once described, I think, York as like Blackburn only without the money,( pre-Jack Walker) and became the most successful Everton managers of my time.

The financial barriers to competing have changed, but I think the new board can start by trying to raise standards right across the club. If it remains the worst run club in the premier league, chucking money in will be wasted. Moshiri proved that.

David Moyes will definitely be here next season, so I think the priority is reorganisng the club and improving the squad. That last bit will take at least a couple of years.

Eg did Kevin Thelwelll really sign Ashley Young? Did Marcel Brands really buy Allen or James ?

However, I'm just not sure it matters all that much whether Moyes is our manager or not.

Liam and Brian H., your statistics encapsulate for me how the expectations for this club have always clashed with reality. It's been a long, long time since Everton was truly a "force to be reckoned with" and no manager alone is going to address that.

It's about buying top talent.

As Brian W. points out, the "smaller" clubs who have passed us, like Brighton and Forest, have done it by spending for better players. Brentford did it gradually, Brighton all at once, but that's the template. Ian correctly warns that it's not a guaranteed strategy for success -- luck plays a big part as well, because as Spurs and United have learned, some expensive players flop in the Prem -- but it sure as hell improves your chances.

In my opinion the degree of our future success will be determined much more by how much Friedkin chooses to spend than by who he chooses to manage us. With isolated exceptions -- Ranieri and Leicester being one -- managers don't win with inferior talent.

At the end of the season our wage bill will plummet as the out of contract / loan masses leave including our top earner Doucoure and high earning Keane and DCL.

The various tiers set out in my post at 127 take account of wage bill too.

Nuno Espirito Santos is doing great with Forest, did really well at Wolves and did really badly at Spurs. He's a good manager. Better than Moyes? Not sure. Probably similar to be honest. The reason Forest are doing well is that they have been building towards this through really really heavy investment in a short space of time. They are over achieving absolutely but with a lot of help from financial backing.

I think the year we came fourth, he definitely exceeded expectations by miles, but for a lot of the Moyes era, Everton had around the seventh or eighth highest wage bill, and his overall average position was around about seventh.

That’s all in the past anyway although it definitely helped contribute to the narrative of Everton becoming a smaller club, when you consider our manager and owner used to thrive on being plucky little Everton, punching above their weight.

We got kidded and the consequence is our longest ever trophy drought, which is shameful for a club like Everton, imho.

He'll at least see out another season and I don't see TFG as being a hire'n'fire outfit so will see out his contract due to payoffs.

Unless of course a world class manager suddenly becomes available, like that bloke at Milan. Oh, hang on, maybe not then either.

So get used to seeing Moyes around. And if he does a good job, maybe TFG will give him two more years?

Allan and Rodriguez will have been Ancelloti's influence, but I would imagine his input would have stopped at go and get them.

The problem with Everton is that there has been too much incoherence and interference. Too many cooks spoiling the broth and that is reflected in a disjointed playing staff.

But there is a baseline emerging that can be built upon.

I watched one of those documentaries, I think on Netflix or one of the other channels. It was about a season with Manchester City. On one episode, a transfer committee was discussing transfer strategy. The board were there, the financiers, the DoF. No PeP, although he'd probably already provided his input and recommendations.

That's what is missing at Everton. Planning and strategy. In terms of fans, it's not like there is going to be a ballot for supporters to have the final say on whether we should make a signing. That's not our place.

Robert, but West Ham are on the same points as us. I know it's relative to league position mostly, but its no guarantee.

There's a lot to be said for how you spend, not what you spend, especially where we are now.

I'll be interested to see how Forest go Robert. Will they sustain it? Or will they do a Leicester and be a one season wonder? I love to see someone else come from nowhere, but will they fall quickly from grace? As it is said, getting to the top is the easy part. Staying there is another matter. The 33 year old journeyman Chris Wood, suddenly having the season of life where everything he hits goes in. Will that continue? Who knows, but good luck to him and Forest. They deserve their chance.

The departures of Doucs, Dom, Harrison and Keane will knock off £20.8 million. Ending the Lindstrom/Broja/Mangala loans and having Holgate and Maupay come off our books clears another £13.5m.

The total is £34.3m. (It'll be even more if Coleman or Young retires.)

That gives us the space to offer some tempting personal terms to incoming players for whom we have to compete.

Danny #167, I'd say that planning and strategy were what WAS missing at Everton. Past tense. TFK will certainly have a strategic plan in place for this club.

They're not likely to tell us what it is, but we should see it develop over the next two years.

At the moment 5 or 6 clubs are holding all the aces competition/ money wise.

We have a mountain to climb to get on par with them, I don't think you can expect any manager to achieve that unless he has players that are their equal.

I like you will be interested to see if Forest can maintain a challenge for the top 6 next season as well as competing in Europe. They will make a lot of money if they are in the Champions league which will help with finances and recruitment. But as you say Chris Woods is having the season of his life, and maybe one or two of their better players may be targets for other clubs.
I also look at Villa a couple of seasons back they were in the Championship, but now under the stewardship of Emery they are playing in the Champions league so bolstering their kitty for improvements next season, as still having a chance at lifting the trophy. I do think they and Forest have been helped by the fall off in form of Man City, Man Utd and Chelsea which might not happen again next season. Also Newcastle are quickly getting into the top 6 battle.

Next season it will be difficult to even consider challenging for a top 6, but depending on his budget I would hope we are comfortably in the top 10, wont be easy but for me definitely achievable. I just hope the size of our transfer budget doesnt include the sale of Branthwaite. Our back 4 looks very solid and a lot of that is due to him and Moyes promoting O,Brien to the first team. Our front four is our biggest problem and hopefully Moyes can sign a couple of players to help rectify our lack of goals from that department.

What I want to see is this:

- a very hard push for cup trophies

- a more front foot style of football developing, transitioning to a team that is good with the ball and not just without it

- investing most heavily in the attack (which might not necessarily mean strikers / forwards - but could even be the style of the full backs)

- bringing in much more pace across what seems an unusually slow squad

- acquiring players who can peak over the next three seasons (ie age 22 to 24)

- acquiring players of exceptional / Champions League standard talent aged 15 to 21 who we can introduce to the First XI over the next 3 seasons

If we do that then it bodes well for future. Personally I think Europe is very unlikely next season but if we get the right foundations in place (and generous spending!) within 3 seasons, it's realistic to see us where Villa currently are facing PSG in the latter stages of the Champions League.

Roma have had 3 managers this season alone.

As the late John Lennon sang "some may call me a dreamer, but I'm not the only one"!!

The Friedkins then too-hastily hired the wrong replacement, Juric. He lasted 12 games. (Then he went to Saints and took them down.)

Then TFG brought in Ranieri to steady the ship. He has done so.

I wouldn't necessarily assume TFG have a quick trigger based on that alone. Per multiple reports, De Rossi would have stayed if he had stayed cool.

You've gone from TFG sacking Moyes "if things don't go smoothly" to sacking him "if things go badly wrong" in two posts.

Very few managers survive things going badly wrong!

Is that allowed?

We have not been “a big club” since 1975?

Each to their own opinions mate, but I think you're mixing up performance on the pitch with size of the club.

We are massive. Bigger than Newcastle and Tottenham and West Who?

Forget the Palace match and being able to see the blue smoke from North Wales. When we win our next trophy, it will drift over the Pennines and Irish Sea. A new Evertonian Pope will be announced to remind the Lord where his football loyalties sit.

Okay, I got carried away.

"I think you're mixing up performance on the pitch with size of the club".

So, he's wrong on both counts then, Danny.

Probably Spurs, Newcastle and Villa

Then Everton and Leeds

Tottenham and Newcastle my arse.

Out of genuine interest, what generation are you from?

It certainly ain't going to be proved wrong when you go back after ending up being very unpopular at the time of your first departure.

Just don't ever say we're not a big club. We always have been, are and will continue to be so.

That - ranking - Ryan, is not what your post was about. How about you defend your actual statement: that we have not been a "big club" since 1975?

Enough said...

We're a minnow in European football. We don't win trophies, play in Europe regularly, we sell every decent young player we produce.

Winning 1 trophy since 1987 and playing in Europe in about 6 of them seasons isn't what I would call a massive, big club.

I think the Skunks are odds on favourites for The Masters this week as well.

I remember a man losing his watch when he was celebrating and he gave me a £1 when I found it for him. Probably why I like scousers so much despite being born in York.

I went regular in my teens and 20s to early 30s. Then stopped going much when my daughter came along.

It's why I like Moyes because at least he got us into Europe on a semi regular basis. Who's done that since him?

Manchester United didn't stop being a big club when they got released in the 70s and hadn't won the the league between 1967 and 1993.

Ryan, your day will come mate. Keep believing, because it will happen and the younger generations deserve it. I'll sit back and watch with pride.

It's "My dad is bigger than your dad" crap.

Maybe I'm just tired of it all now. Seeing clubs like Brighton and Brentford above us now. I can't see an end in sight for when we become a 'big' club on the pitch again.

Leeds and Newcastle have played in the Champions League more than us in the past 30 years.

I just find it so frustrating when we seem to be going backwards and it's a long way back to the top

Keep posting, we're all Evertonians. We lock horns, argue and agree about the one thing that bonds us together.

Liverpool and Manchester United.

I would have been happy for him to only get an 18 month contract because it would obviously be hard to dislodge him for someone ‘better' if he did an adequate job.

Two names surprisingly not mentioned (that I could see) in Christine's OP, one of whom has been instrumental in Moyes's double-quick renaissance. Tim Iroegbunam was injured for a long time and has some flaws to fully eradicate, but no discussion about Jake O'Brien in the ‘gems' section?

Playing O'Brien was something Dyche stubbornly refused to do when everyone could see we needed something better on the right flank. Probably Moyes's simplest and yet most significant immediate change – and it has left him almost impossible to dislodge for the next 2 years.

The UK only has two top teams: Man Utd and Liverpool?

They took 30 years to win a Premier League but they are one of only two top teams in the UK?

Oh, okay… if you say so.

How many fans? Sheer size and quality of facilities? Ownership? Influence? Power? Trophies won? Consistent quality of players and managers? Respect? History? Vision? Backing? Profitability?

Well actually it's all of the above, a big club is not solely dependent on how many trophies they have won, otherwise Leicester City and West Ham Utd would be asking the question.

You need consistency in the club, it's team, management and sheer size. Get all that right and you're left with that question: "When did you last win anything?"

We're still there, deeply, on account of those "leaders", and we'll remain there for years to come given the way the EPL has been "developed".

To the EPL "developers" it doesn't matter at all that our new stadium of a mere 52,000 capacity may be attractive as a venue for non-football events, remunerative as those events will be to our latest owners.

No, as a football club we have been designated, by intent or incompetence, by those in charge of our club, for decades, as non-entities in comparison to the other six thirty-year old founder clubs of the EPL, and those controlling the much vaunted EPL will rely on that to avoid sweeping the whole EPL deck clean so that, in my eyes, we and the world might once again never enjoy the fabulous spectacle of seeing clubs like us (hammered as we were by Heysel, and then some), Forest, Ipswich, Blackburn and Leicester, good clubs at their height to say the least, achieve mega-success.

I think it ain't gonna happen though.

THE EPL IS THOROUGHLY CORRUPT.

Of course there are clubs that have been more successful in the last 20 years — but it does not make them bigger!!

Football people know that we have always been a Big club and we always will be! We are a sleeping Giant that needs awakening!

We've won nothing since 1995 whilst other founder clubs of the Premier League have massively progressed in their fortunes and success, including, just about, Spurs, another club with a devious, self-serving CEO such as Kenwright, albeit Levy's been way smarter.

By now and then some football in the Premier League has been pillaged by financial rapists at the so-called top of the game, deeply morally corrupt nation states with enormous wealth being openly and acceptably, to the Premier League charlatans allegedly in charge, welcomed — so what credibility in comparison does a Toyota cars salesman in a small part of the now deeply dysfunctional USA have in terms of funding trophy-winning success?

Meanwhile, our players, manager and staff continue to be paid huge fortunes for our demonstrable mediocrity as a club.

Acceptable? I think not… but I've only been saying it for decades.

I would read that article instantly, because I honestly have never understood the term.

All fans think there club is the biggest and best, that's fine. And if you're talking UK size clubs, then Everton are one of the biggest.

But let's be honest: on a global scale, we hardly register. Only the two clubs I've mentioned compared with Real, Barcelona and Bayern.

Hopefully the new Everton can sort out our token marketing and brand development to generate global reach.

But, without sounding defeatist, we won't match those 5. Even Manchester City and Chelsea haven't reached those levels on the global stage, despite their recent success.

We can improve our standing in the game outside of the UK. Well, how couldn't we given the start point? I hope we begin by making the most of our trip to the US in the summer, and not just on the pitch. We must already have supporters clubs out there (over to Mike Gaynes et al).

Other parts of the world too. Japan, South Korea and Thailand are fanatical footballing hotbeds. We already have a sister club on the South American continent and why not use Tim Cahill as an ambassador for Australia and New Zealand?

I'm not talking world domination, but we can expand our reach and appeal.

Remind me why we are even having this debate again?

That is largely down to incompetence at club management level – because the club has completely failed to capitalise on the riches offered by the Premier League and Champions League.

We have also been extremely old fashioned in our approach to sourcing players – making it ridiculously easy for relative minnows to innovate and overtake us. Indeed these days it's not even innovation – its just what pretty much everyone else is doing except us.

It's not for Moyes to fix this as manager. It's up to whoever runs the commercial side of the club and the academy etc, and Nicky Hammond etc.

Steve, it's a debate about what we hope for in the future, touching on the past, not the past two months.

This is where time-framed goal posts can be used to justify a positional view.

Even though I hate the football has only existed since the Premier League inception of the beast that feeds itself, Everton are 7th in the all time Premier League table 1992-2024.

Is that a true reflection of where we've been for large parts of that period? I don't believe so.

A big club of the '60s was measured almost solely by its national impact, winning of cups, its players playing for the national team, its individual power in the games structure. Whilst a big club today would see its European scope added to the mix.

So time and media exposure across continents are the lifeblood of today's top teams. Their success is measured commercially too, marketing globally, presence in several continents. By comparison, before the Premier League, commercial income was derived from fans at matches, and limited TV money.
Add to the mix, international supply and demand, that wonderful tool of marketing, and "Big" has a new definition.

In the end, the common denominator in the game across all time is power, money and influence. The so-called "Big" teams of today have international presence, international income, the ability to afford the world's best players, and by default they win everything.

Everton are a "Big" national club historically; they still wield power and influence around the table of the Premier League but, as time goes on, that power and influence is over-ridden by the top tier clubs (I won't bother naming them).

So... we are most definitely not an Internationally acclaimed "Big" club. In the UK,we are considered a "Big" club because of the history, the size and quality of fan base, facilities, and quality of playing staff and structure.

We have been damaged significantly by the mismanagement throughout the time of the Premier League. We failed to grasp the opportunity that has seen so many overtake us and take the same step up to international acclaim.

Time and Money. We are in limbo struggling to get out. We now have an owner who is commercially astute, a new stadium that is magnificent, and the decks have been cleared in the boardroom.

What needs to happen now is a plan to step up the quality of playing staff and management (hence the question at the start of the article). The jigsaw is taking shape but it might be 2 or 3 years before the last 30 can be expunged.

It gives TFG time to stabilise the finances, improve commercial revenues and start competing with regular £100M (+) net spends each summer

It gives those in charge of the academy, development and recruitment time to source and develop exceptionally talented 14- to 18-year olds and 18- to 21-year-olds

It gives Moyes time to do what he is really good at – building a squad of good but not great players which is well organised and has good team spirit and has its moments from a footballing point of view – finishing in the top 7 to 10 places (ahead of quite a few better resourced clubs).

The most successful international footballing nation on the planet, Brazil, is also home to the mighty Maracana. Clubs using that stadium as their home pitch (Flamengo, Fluminense) would laugh at the European idea that they're not big clubs like Everton.

Likewise the Argentine fans of River Plate, which attracts 85,000 to home games, and Boca Juniors would sneer at the suggestion they weren't big clubs.

The fans' perspective is not the deciding view, neither is it in Europe, but success is measured commercially as well as on the pitch, that's the biggest difference in the evolution of "Big Teams".

"There should be a follow up to this article, "What's the definition of a big club?"

No need for a follow up, the BBC has it all sorted out already

Biggest clubs in Britain

You like Moyes, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that Steve, the stats also prove that he his doing a good/very good job, with a very thin squad, but I think there’s also a lot of people who see exactly what they have seen before?

For some of us that’s great, but for others that’s obviously not the case.

Let Moyes build us and then pass on the baton, never really worked last time, except for an exciting initial twelve months under Martinez, (who simply added a few different players, in midfield and attack)

Let’s give Moyes a chance to see how far he can go this time, even though West Ham, obviously felt he could take them no further, after a few years in the job?

West Ham, haven’t kicked on this season but they obviously felt they weren’t going to kick on with David either and although he won them a cup, and was unlucky the previous year, in the bigger competition, let’s not kid ourselves, that it was a wonderful achievement against all odds, even though the West Ham fans should be eternally grateful, when you consider they hadn’t won a trophy for over forty years, and very little in their entire history.

Moyes knows the club, and he has hopefully come back because he wants to give the Evertonians, what he gave those Hammers fans, but to ask why we are even having this debate, doesn’t come across very good imo Steve.

It is now so far off subject that it will soon disappear up the Zambezi or some other orifice.

You certainly have more time on your hands than I do.
So sorry as you are my always my go-to Toffeywebber.

The new owners are so impressed with your draw, they are looking to commission you for a weekly Debating Point item — a new feature that will clearly capture the essence of the finest TW debates of old.

From Moyes to Big Club? Astounding.

You don't like the article? That's okay, just my thoughts. I'm sure you can file it under C for crap...

I didnt agree with a lot of what you said, but I for one am very pleased you did create this thread with your perfectly valid question.

A few quivering bottom lips, but other than that this as been a cracking thread - 231 comments so far

Christine Foster commissioned for a weekly TW debating point item ? .... That`s a cracking idea, Michael.

I just get triggered when people insinuate that Everton aren't a big club!!

That’s interesting if our new CEO, said that Ryan. Get rid of him before he starts would be my initial thought, unless he’s one of those snide, horrible bastards, who hates losing, and was behind the initial movement from Leeds, when they were going to sue Everton!

I should add that I dabbled with Evertonia but still find TW the better platform for debate.

Brentford, Bournemouth, Brighton etc are great clubs but never will be big*.

Source: Oxford English Dictionary (non- bridged version)

I don't really think the form we have settled into says anything negative about Moyes. It says much, much more about the lack of quality in the squad. Moyes isn't correcting some material underperformance - we really aren't very good. In fact it speaks to just how well Moyes did initially to put a run of wins together.

Over the next couple of years I expect Moyes will outperform the level of investment in the playing squad (just as Dyche did) but will ultimately leave fans disappointed because much of the football will be boring and (as per almost all of the last 38 years) we'll be forced to watch on as much better resourced clubs win all the silverware.

I think ToffeeWeb has been very lucky to have had your contributions over the years and I think your posts are must reads for the majority of readers on here so keep them coming — very best wishes and good health girl.

Moyes has given a lot of people some of their faith back but it will be impossible for him to continue with his good work unless he gets quite a bit of money to spend.

My belief has always been that, when you have got the fans on side at Everton, then anything is possible in our home games, because Goodison suddenly becomes a place that not many away teams fancy. But ultimately, you need good players and Everton simply don't have enough of them.

That bleedin' old age is getting closer!

I think I've been putting off old age, it creeps up on you until you look in the mirror and see your mum, lol. Thanks for the words!

But at West Ham, he bought Bowen, Kudus and Paquetta — all of whom would make a huge improvement to our squad.

Until that's out the way, I can't see a £100M being spent without losing someone like Branthwaite. As yet we don't know TFG's plan for the club or its structure going forward.

But seriously, getting nearly 250 comments on a thread is pretty good going and not to be sneezed at — shows the piece was put out at a good moment to get people submitting their opinions. Not too many calling it crap either!

I'm struggling to get past 100 comments on the matchday threads so I may need to start looking for a new job next season.

We were also, reportedly, very interested in Bowen when he was at Hull City but I think lack of money maybe put a halt to that.

It couldn't have been his talent that was in doubt and, although West Ham have a few decent players, it is Bowen who is the hub of the team — can West Ham hold onto him?

I also think West Ham will definitely keep him. That's principally because he's 28 and under contract until 2030. No-one will pay the money West Ham will demand to sell, on a player who has already peaked in form and value and will only deteriorate from here.

He is well respected throughout the football world, knows and respects David Moyes, loves Everton, has experience at grassroots training academies having run them, is respected worldwide especially in the Middle East and Oceania where he is revered. Great contacts at every level, his name opens doors.

More than anything, he knows Moyes; such an appointment would be tremendous for the club.

Now I got to try going back to sleep... only 4:30 am. Bloody Everton!

Jesus. I'd love that limited success at the moment...

Funnily enough, he divided opinion.

Thanks for that post, Robert, your second paragraph explains to me why Bowen is unlikely to leave West Ham!

Throughout the last number of years, I have read your well-reasoned comments. This was done with a love for Everton to somehow reclaim our standing in the football world. I on the other hand have had near mental breakdown watching our beloved club being ransacked by our former owners. I thank you for showing me and many others that fame is a passing thing while class is eternal.

I also think we need a proper DoF and Cahill would be a great bridge for the club to reunite the fans with the management. He's young enough to lead or impose a football ideology for this club for many years to come.

Take care, lass.

My German might not be what it was, but I can still get by. I just noticed the word in the background on the picture at the top of the thread.

"Zukunft" = future. An omen?

Who knows? I just hope whoever is coming and going, we do our business early. There will always be the odd late one, but let's get set for a full pre-season for the majority of next season's squad.

Now I know the article itself wasn't negative but the subsequent debate casts doubt over a plan which seems to be on point at the moment. Begging the question for me, why? If we got through by the skin of our teeth again and the football was dogshit, I'd be more understanding.

It's a divisive topic clearly but he is here and I feel we had only just started to accept that fact only for us to debate it all again.

I wouldn't call it negativity. Just questioning the future.

We are a scarred fan base after decades of neglect, so anyone, Moyes or whoever, is going to be treated with suspicion.

You've stated earlier in the thread that Moyes hasn't changed. An observation I'd agree with so I'd expect any fans who want Everton "to be more adventurous as a club" are highly likely to be disappointed.

Now he's back, with an employer who's yet to show anything of a different nature to what Moyes delighted in under Kenwright.

Moyes' management career will be a laughing stock pub quiz question in decades to come, but let's just say he's been fabulously pragmatic in putting himself, in terms of salary, well into the top four of EPL managers for decades. without ever winning anything of significance, ever.

I hope Friedkin aspires to more than Moyes in BMD but to me Friedkin is starting to resemble the Sphinx when it comes to communication, in words or action.

A few folks would be surprised to hear that. Salah. Di Natale. Pirlo. Ibra. Lewandowski. Remember Milito? All got better after 28.

Can I get a small wager with you on how good Bowen will still be in 3-4 years?

So you're saying it wasn't Moyes fault that he failed to win anything, he just wasn't given the right tools to succeed.

Also to reignite the Big club debate.

I think the sad part is that amongst the younger generation and especially anybody born after 1995, we are probably seen by some as an irrelevant club. What's the point of Everton, I think, was the subject of a previous ToffeeWeb thread.

But our relevance isn’t dead - it’s dormant.

The new stadium hopefully changes things and brings us back into the conversation quickly.

Football changes fast - Everton’s size, location, and history mean we’re also one or two good projects away from getting noticed again. The stadium is one of the first projects.

So, at the moment, from a younger (and non-supporting Everton) football fan’s point of view, we may be irrelevant in the now, but with a legacy that still matters and potential to rise.

We just need to reinvent ourselves for the next generation.

Hope you don't mind that I moved the related comments over to the new thread?

Hmmm... I guess it now looks like a deliberate attempt to sabotage your quest for 300 posts.

"Damned if you do, damned if you don't"!!!

This also explains why the greatest ever goalkeeper to grace the Everton shirt was never made welcome by the greatest player never to wear the Everton shirt and his lackeys.

Link

No wonder he wasn't welcome by the previous regime.

I read an article in the Independent. To back up your wall argument from the Arsenal v Real match. Neville had three principles, in his own words. One of them was eyes. "If you can't see the ball, you're not saving it".

There is also an App (what the fuck are they?) going round saying all Premier League games will not be refereed by normal Premier League referees and there will be no VAR applied at these games on the last day of the Premier League season.

This is because all those referees will at Anfield celebrating Liverpool's title win!

I’ve seen it Dave, but I’m not sure they will all be welcome because they never forget a ref who doesn’t give them “absolutely everything” from the first whistle to the last!

It must be ‘eye of the beholder’ stuff but I’m already convinced an O’Brien / Branthwaite partnership is key to our imminent future (I’m a huge fan of Tarkowski the ‘emblem’, less one of Tarkowski the ‘ideal’).

Scott has posted some wild stuff; deriding the merit of the OP based on the fact that some people are just waiting for a run of poor games to put the boot into Davey Moyes, whilst stating we are the 5th best team in the league after a very short run of positive results.

I took MK’s post at 229 at face value as it seemed in keeping with what the new site owners would be looking for. It’s a bit sad that so many saw it as what would have been a very petty ‘dig’.

I’m happy to help push towards the 300+ total that could secure Christine’s new gig as weekly debate point chooser.

Christine, I get that it can be a shock when eventually you look in the mirror and see your ‘mother’ looking back at you. Imagine how much worse that could be for those blokes who see exactly that! ;)

Christine's mother looking back at me from the mirror scared the feck out of me!

Was that the year Dave Abrahams won it?

Dave Abraham won it in 1878! 😂😂

Sorry, Dave!