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?A joy to watch ?

By Iain Thomson :  06/10/2007 :  Comments (23) :
I wish one day David Moyes had reason to say what John Collins said after his young Hibs team won at Ibrox.

?I?m proud of my players, every single one of them showed great bravery passing at the back, in tight situations, everyone wanting the ball? today we were brave, great passing ,great movement? we try to encourage them, every day we work on passing and moving?

I wish that an interviewer felt to say something like what Chick Young said in response.

?Well I?ve said it before and I?ll say it again if Hibs are playing in a stadium near you come and see them... a joy to watch?.

I?m not expecting Arsenal levels of movement but at least to see us heading in that direction would be nice, but I guess after 5 years our style of play has evolved to where Moyes wants it, which is pretty depressing. I like David Moyes, he clearly motivates the players and has us expecting Europe and expecting a quality brand of football. In any walk of life people reach their level I think of David Moyes as the managerial equivalent of Carsley, an honest hard worker. I think going forward we need the managerial equivalent of Arteta.

John Collins is in his first management job so of course I'm not suggesting he be Everton manager, what I am saying is there are coaches/managers who are sucessful but also want players to play in a way that?s ?a joy to watch?. I support Everon so I?d embrace any style of play no matter how dull if we were winning things. We aren?t. I?d like nothing more than for Moyes to alter tack and play a pass-and-move game, but that?s like hoping Carsley will play like Arteta.

I think this year a cup final or 4th place would earn Moyes a new contract. If we don?t achieve that it's time for a change, not because I?m some Moyes hater but simply because managers who are in charge for a decade at this level, as Moyes would if he gets his 5-yr deal, are managers who win trophies to earn that sort of time. A fourth place league finish followed by the immediate loss of the European football it brought isn?t in my opinion enough to warrant another 5 years. If anyone comments along the lines of who else is better to manage Everton I?d remind you that Moyes came from the Championship having never won a cup or promotion, so if that?s the qualification needed to manage Everton there are loads who meet them. I don?t think Moyes needs tobe sacked just that I?m unsure what he has done to justify being untouchable.

I don?t think its too much to ask that we be a ?joy to watch?

Reader Comments

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Adam Wilkinson
1   Posted 07/10/2007 at 07:16:09

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I’m an Everton fan but I live on Easter Rd and watch Hibs on a regular basis.Hibs can pass a ball but I watched them get hammerd 4-2 against Motherwell last week and the defending was abismal.

This email is just another example of people on this site moaning, the grass isn’t always greener!
You sould spend more time singing at matches instead of moaning on the net.

I was at the boro match and the compleat lack of voice from the fans was an embarresment.

What would you rather Mike Walker or maybe we should give Howard Kendell a ring get him back with the blues again! Remember thoughs days? I do and they were dark dark days in comparison Everton are now a half decent team.

Lets get behind them.
Gavin Ramejkis
2   Posted 07/10/2007 at 07:35:49

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Adam there are just as many Everton fans who remember watching Arsenal slot seven past us and other teams we claim to be better than sliding four and just as many minnows in the last five years cup competitions. I know a few Hibs fans who have righlty claimed the pleasure of watching their young side now claim both auld firm teams this season.
Bob Turner
3   Posted 07/10/2007 at 07:50:15

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So you’ve never felt any joy after an Everton match?? Let’s just ignore these times, shall we, pretend they didn’t happen, just so it backs up your argument. Better still, let’s pick out the times when Everton have played poorly, and reinforce the point you’re trying to make.

Anyone can cherry pick the odd match here or there when a team overperforms (as HIbs obviously did yesterday) - I’m sure they weren’t a joy to watch the previous week.

If you really don’t think there have been times when Everton have been a joy to watch, I don’t know what you’ve been watching...
Gavin Ramejkis
4   Posted 07/10/2007 at 08:50:19

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Bob have to agree but a lot of us would like to see more to enjoy than not, I had this argument in Scotland last week about strikers, one of my mates is a Rangers fan and said to him all these kids complaining about strikers not scoring every week, if any team had a player who scored in every game he’d be worth well in excess of £60m it just isn’t going to happen, after a few beers we finally agreed on we all want to see good passing football but expect to get beaten somewhere on that road it’s just not as easy to take as a victory but a loss through playing poor football rather than being outplayed by a superior side is something else.
Gary Carter
5   Posted 07/10/2007 at 10:13:53

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I watched the dvd of us v Bayern Munich the other day. I remember the days, the golden era if you will, but Ive never managed to remember the flowing brazilian/arsenal style football that certain people on here hark back to. On watching the dvd I realised why, it never happened ! We played blatant percentage football exactly as we do now, there was no free flowing fotball at all, in fact if anything we played worse football then than we do now. And the whole "Science of football" motto we have, that doesnt conjure up images of free flowing football to me. It conjures up an image of football that is most effective and calculated, no one describes Brazilian football as scientific, its more compared to ebing an art........
Bob Turner
6   Posted 07/10/2007 at 10:35:37

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Gavin, I accept your point about how we’d all like to see more attractive football, more often (which I think is the problem - the players are capable of it, they just don’t do it consistently enough!).

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder - I think football is a blend of science and art, and what I believe most people who complain about our "style" of play would like to see more of is the art, but I do believe there’s a place for science too. It’s just about getting the mix right.

The abundance of stats available have made managers like DM, Sam Allardyce and the like focus more on the science, whereas I can’t imagine Arsene Wenger berating Fabregas for not making more tackles! But while it’s working for them this season (so far!), how often were they the team who, despite all their artistry, failed to seal the game, and would draw/lose a game they’d played the other team off the park for? The obvious example I’m thinking of is our own victory over them last season. And I don’t remember feeling anything other than elation, regardless of how we’d actually played.

The 2 extremes are to play brilliantly and lose/draw, or to play ugly and win, and I’d rather have the results than the performance. Of course, I’d rather have both, but I don’t think we should lose sight of which of the 2 is more important.

To get beat and to play bady is the pits, I agree, but that does happen less frequently under DM than has been the case for quite a while, surely?

Anyway, here’s to more improved performances, with more beautiful football (however it’s defined), which I’d hope would come from the confidence of 3 successive wins. But if we beat the Barcodes today with an ugly performance, I won’t be (too) upset about how we play.

Mark Stone
7   Posted 07/10/2007 at 11:33:06

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We’ve won 3 games on the trot lad. Sort your life out.
Adam Wilkinson
8   Posted 07/10/2007 at 11:45:35

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I agree with you Mark.

At the end of the day we have a team that can grind out results which although, we don’t play like the Arse, it would be the dream if we did but we don’t, neither did Howards team of the 80’s, show boating and fancy skill were not on the agenda, Howard wouldn’t have it.

I think we should have been proud of what we acheived this week it looked like we were heading out of Europe but we battelled hard and got the result we needed.

At the boro game, even when we were 2-0 up we were getting the piss ripped out of us by the boro fans cos of the lack of singing and not being behind the team.

I know alot of you lads go to all the games and our style of football may not warrent getting the bongo’s out but lets get behind our young (ish) team and keep us looking at the top 6 instead of the bottom 6.
Cos god knows we had to endure a fair few seasons doing that.
paul gladwell
9   Posted 07/10/2007 at 12:08:05

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Gary carter
Try watching the ECWC final where Clough was creaming over a move of 36 passes which nearly produced one of the greatest goals in any final.
Everton changed their tactics for that one game you mentioned and for you to state we never played free flowing football!!
Watch the sunderland, Man utd to name 2 of that season also I rememeber the 87 season when Sheedy moved into the middle and during xmas time we slaughtered everyone scoring top draw goals for fun so for you to come on here and state we play better football now is fucking beyond me, infact the worst comment I have ever read on this site.
Iain Thomson
10   Posted 07/10/2007 at 12:13:30

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I did say that Id take dull football if we were winning things. Im not comparing us unfavourably to Hibs , im not an idiot, My comments are about our managers footballing ethos. Im pretty happy with how we are doing this season, just questioning if we want another 5 years with Everton led by a man who accepts the mindless long ball.

I am behind the team, I dont feel I have to sort my life out, and I dont think the grass is always greener. It just concerns me that we play the Moyes way thats all.
Paul Heery
11   Posted 07/10/2007 at 12:33:30

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I don’t dispute your right to criticise the style of play or to compare it to other clubs, but I still can’t understand the idea that the solution is to change the manager. This is a man who is building the club, who is putting down solid foundations, raising the quality of the playing staff, raising expectations. The difference from 5 years ago is so marked it’s ridiculous to even make comparisons, and the progress is not just a flash in the pan, it’s solid progress. Look at the way that Wenger and Ferguson built their clubs so that when success comes they can sustain it, and compare that to the RS, in the same financial league, who change every few years, have a bit of success and then go back to square one. Look at the finances and the infrastructure and compare it other clubs - we’re now punching slightly above our weight, not way above, but if you look at the investment over time, and compare us to Spurs or Newcastle (or even Boro and Villa) then 6th last season is good progress.
I accept we’ve got to kick on from here, the question is how we do it. It seems to me that it’s a no-brainer to say that you build on the progress already made, you allow the manager to develop his young team, supported by more young players coming through and you show some patience. The alternative is get rid of the manager, lose the players who have felt supported and encouraged by him, cost the club a fortune and end up with .....who? Does anyone seriously think that there is someone out there who will come in and within a year or two with our current level of finances, make that huge leap that a whole host of clubs have been trying to make ... oh and play beautiful free-flowing football as well. We all know about the wages that Newcastle pay, they could have anyone they wanted outside the top 4, who did they go for? Sam Allardyce! The beautiful game?
Paul Cummins
12   Posted 07/10/2007 at 13:26:00

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Of course if Moyes gets us to a cup final or 4th place this season he desreves another contract! what planet are you on to suggest otherwise! It will only be time for Moyes to go when he has got to a point where we are not progressing. We have got off to a very good start to the season again. I cannot understand the negativity on here. The guy who wrote about the Bayern game was right. Iwent to most of the home games throughout the 80s and whilst there were great victories e.g. 5-0 v Man Utd and some good football there were also many performances that were not ’school of science’.
Iain Thomson
13   Posted 07/10/2007 at 13:37:07

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Paul

I wasnt suggesting otherwise.

Peter J

If you are sick off it why are you taking time to read it, and secondly taking the time to reply/give me abuse.
Tom Hughes
14   Posted 07/10/2007 at 13:25:15

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I agree with Paul Gladwell re: Gary Carter’s comments about the 85 side (I know it’s a bit off thread). That team had everything......the semi-final mentioned was real cut and thrust, and we could manage that too if necessary (and it was that night), that’s why super Arsenal wouldn’t have lived with them, they would’nt have touched the ball nevermind danced around with it. I love watching the present Arsenal by the way, but they aren’t a patch on that side who simply demolished sides for fun. Most wins in a season ever I believe, and that’s despite losing the first 2 and 3 out of the last 4 league games having already won the league...... and remember we took the league off the reigning European champs in what was then the strongest league in Europe (without the hype), if you won our league then you won the European cup it was almost as simple as that. With the efficiency came style and swagger. Great one and 2 touch footy all over the pitch. A real joy to watch!
Steve Foster
15   Posted 07/10/2007 at 14:49:42

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I believe a sign of a good team is one that can grind out results even when they dont play particularly well, or are going through a rough patch

These are the sides that win trophies and leagues. You see Chelsea and Man U do it often.

i?m not saying were in the same category, just that were going through a rough patch but still getting results ? I?m fully expecting to see plenty of attractive football once we get a few player back from injury.
chris brad
16   Posted 07/10/2007 at 17:46:11

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back to playing the same old pile of shite yet again,losing to a plain team that were supposedly better than and just to top it that prick scores against us.hibbert back in the team,my god how piss poor is our strengh in depth that we have to rely on that muppet,no disrespect to any of the muppets.how we all wish the board had forked out a bit more in the summer on 2 quality midfielders and another centre half because its going to be very evident soon that we do not have enough quality players to call upon in the coming months.dont think that the 3 players that are out injured at the min are all going to return and suddenly our fortunes will begin to change for the better,it will take time for them all to bed back in again.hands up who isnt shitting themselves now at the thought of facing the red shite in our next game?
Jonathan Morgan
17   Posted 07/10/2007 at 18:29:35

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Top,Top article Ian.. Its nice that the likes of yourself want to see more than being played off the park by sheff weds,but to win 3-0 and everything be ok.At the end of the day teams who dont retain possession dont win anything over a season,oviously we will get the odd results but win anything never until moyes is changed for someone who is actually a football coach.90% of everton games have the opposition with more possession percentage than us,its a worry,and in 5 years under moyes there still doesn’t seem to be a change in style.If we had won a title or a cup then there would be more of a argument for the moyes uninventive football,but as we all know it hasnt happened........again top story Ian,its nice to see someone who has a principle on how the game should be played.Its not to much to ask..
Tony Swain
18   Posted 07/10/2007 at 21:51:53

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I don’t think it would be reasanable to expect us to play top drawer football every week (whatever that may be), but maybe the Arse would be an example), but what really frustrates me when watching us play is the ammount of pressure we put ourselves under by long hopeless balls out of defence. I got up at 2.45 am this morning to watch us play the barcodes (I live in New Zealand) and I couldnt sleep after the game as not just the score, but some of the football, haunted me. At 1-1 we had them on the rack and started playing the ball around (we can do it when we want to) but then for whatever reason, we started booting it upfield and not always when we were under pressure. Surely, those supporters who bemoan the style of play only do it because they want us to win games and be successful. The last 15 minutes or so during the Newcastle game saw us panicking whenever we had the ball, having little space to play it in and therefore hoofing it anywwhere. I know that can be the right thing to do at times but it’s such a suicidal way to play when a player has time on the ball. I mean, bloody hell, wouldnt it be easier to keep possesion and just move the ball sideways or forward a few metres than play it straight to the opposition and see it coming straight back. I can understand the so called moaners wanting a better quality of ball delivery so we gain momentum in attack and stop the oppostion from playing, therefore giving us a better chance of winning a game and giving the club some chance of winning something. If thats what a moaner is, then bloody hell, I’m one myself and proud of it.
Mark Stone
19   Posted 08/10/2007 at 13:52:52

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Chris - are we supposed to be better than Newcastle? Look at their squad and then come back and tell me that we should be better than them. Newcastle are a very good side - inconsistent but still very good.
Jonathan Morgan
20   Posted 08/10/2007 at 20:36:08

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mark stone..your point is?Why should newcastle be better than us?and whoever you play,if on the training ground the training is quick sharp and involves passing simply when not under pressure then i dont care if were playing barcelona,them habits will be in the players.its obvious at everton they are not.And that is totally down to one person!
steve w
21   Posted 08/10/2007 at 22:27:19

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It took Bill Shankly 7 years before he won anything at the s**te and he was about to get the sack before he did. We are edging closer and closer to be being a team that will have a chance of challenging for some honours in the next year or 2. Sometimes you have to hold your nerve and hold onto to what you’ve got. I have been as disappointed as anyone as anyone with the performances lately but we’ve still won 3 out of the last 4. Spurs are playing pretty football and look where they are.
chris brad
22   Posted 08/10/2007 at 23:08:29

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mark,in reference to your question.newcastle have just been a collection of over priced misfits for many seasons now and can you honestly tell me that all 4 of there defenders are well known quality players that you would buy if you were manager of everton? i dont think so.butts a has been,martins is inconsistent,owen is injury prone,emre is a fat overpriced knob,smith is average at best and milner has more bad games than good so why should we class ourselves as better than them and expect a draw at very least.
chris brad
23   Posted 08/10/2007 at 23:23:56

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that last bit of my message should of said why shouldnt we class ourselves as better than newcastle and not expect at least a draw.

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