Top Money Man can't help The Blues!

No wonder our country`s in such a mess!

Maybe Bill Kenwright should be on the phone to Mr Carney asap, if he doesn't have contacts with the dosh, then nobody does.

No matter what this twat Kenwright does or doesn't do he never takes any proper flak. Kings Dock, Kirkby, Phantom bids for players, Gobshite talk about investment — the man spews crap out by the minute yet still gets adulation from the fans.

As for "no-one is buying football clubs these days" — it would be interesting to know how many clubs have changed hands since. I know Forest have and Leeds; also, there's a power struggle at Arsenal and the RedShite have been sold twice in recent years. There are plenty more yet we cannot find any interest at all.

What a great board we have at this club that they cling to it like a tramp with a bottle of Sherry yet have no money to keep it running properly... Jokers the lot of them.

Put the word out among all his billionaire pals ..... oh hang on, are we really for sale?

He's totally overprotected by the press, as well. Look at how journalists like David Conn and others have written in-depth and highly critical pieces of the management and finances of multiple clubs over the past decade. But I've *never* seen an article like that about Everton; it's all about how plucky we are, and how Bill's trying really hard.

Honestly, he must be some amazingly talented self-publicist, or else he's got blackmail material over the editors of every media outlet in the UK.

Actually sometimes leaves me sympathizing with Elstone a little. He's completely hamstrung because he's a Chief Executive with no actual executive power. But Bill, while being totally unwilling to let anyone else run the club, is also totally unwilling to spend the time to run the club himself...

Welcome to Everton 101.

"What a great board we have at this club that they cling to it like a tramp with a bottle of Sherry yet have no money to keep it running properly"

As soon as I read that, I pictured a bladdered blue alky tramp on a bench in Stanley Park mumbling EXACTLY the same mad shite BK says when the cameras are on him.

"Aghhh mate...MATE.... Davie Hickson,.. the cannonball kid....Boys Pen I used to go in... used to go on me uncle's bike... arse hanging out me kecks....Alan Ball..AGGGGYERFUGGINTWATFACEDFUGGIN..."

[Well ok, not that last bit but..]

Yet as you say, they show BK's fat, spoofing, smirking head on a big screen and Pavlov's Blues applaud.

In-fucking-CREDIBLE!

PT Barnum was spot on – 'there's a sucker born every minute'.

Worrying, really!

Brian, Kenwright supporters don't exist, a straw man I'm afraid. There are just a lot of Evertonians (the vast majority) who don't see him in the same light as people like you who spout bile against the man without actually having a reason apart from the fact that he hasn't put his own money into the club to give people like you the reflected success you crave.

Kenwright is a personable and honest man who has been very successful in his field, who was praised to the rafters when he replaced the last kicking boy who didn't bring us success and an Evertonian to boot. He has been guilty only of being over optimistic regarding what we could achieve and telling us what he thought we wanted to hear and in that respect he is only human. He's accused of a lot of skulduggery for which there is not a shred of evidence, by a kangaroo court of a tiny minority of fans that he has no opportunity to defend himself against. A minority that he has correctly blanked out and refuses to communicate with and who have accordingly lost any influence they could possibly have. The cringingly embarrassing suicide note of the car park confrontation anybody?

Can nobody understand that the club went into deep debt and sold assets to try to attain success by buying players? Why is it that this is such a difficult concept to grasp? Why is it difficult to see that directors pumping money into loss making ventures is not a sustainable business model and that the only such model is the one that EFC has adopted, living within its means.

Rather than Marx I like the one that I think Lenin made when he said that if the electorate didn't give the right response then change the electorate. Everton do not need and get absolutely no benefit from the destructive minority of its fans that seek to undermine it rather than support it at such a critical and difficult time in its history, Everton's current situation could be classed as existential if nothing is done under fair play to help clubs like us compete again. FFS support the club and have some positivity, I've always seen Everton fans as being knowledgeable and fair but to wade through this f*cking moaning page after page seems to show that to be false nowadays at least for again a minority of people who frequent this forum. Our matchgoing fans especially our away support are absolutely fantastic of course

Right on the money there. Our board are an utter disgrace in every possible way.

ps: I love the way you defend positions you don't hold. Fascinating!!

But chatting on a fans forum has to be about something and bad news tends to dominate http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/201012/why-we-love-bad-news

Is this bloke the Sven Goran Erikkson of bankers?

I sometimes question some fans' reality on this site and you mention clubs being sold like Leeds and Forest — can you not understand that Everton's plight isn’t on the same level as these clubs and the RS takeover was a frustrated sale to avoid liquidation... come on, get in the real world.

Martin (864) is right in many ways with his post as BK's biggest failure is his naivety in wanting EFC to succeed, he is making stupid short term business deals to solve a long term problems and in time it will catch him out but it's obvious why he is doing it, to advance the dream of EFC on the pitch.

EFC to date haven’t had one public buyer come out and frustrate the status quo, which tells me there isn’t a queue of people serious about the cub. Until we find the correct buyer, we are better off as it stands at present — believe me, it can get far worse than our current situation. I know two bidders who went close to due diligence with EFC and thankfully they moved on to other clubs and subsequently made a hack of them.

BK isn’t the problem, he is just part of it and hitting out at him personally achieves nothing. We all want new owners — including BK — but it has to be the correct ones otherwise you will drive him out to any buyer which is far worse than what we have.

The Blue Union needed to be far more inclusive in their disagreements about the board and respect who actually owns it in business terms but I guess they have burnt their bridges now and the in-fighting in their own camp has left their cause spent.

BK if he so decides could sell his shares and run just like the Moore’s did for the RS; don’t be fooled otherwise. The difference is we don’t have a businessmen wanting to bail us out as Brand EFC isn’t worth much globally; to us, it is everything but, in the business world, we are just another club.

The fact is we are a poorly run club regards merchandising and many other aspects that we all know about. We have been lied to as regards ground moves and finances, we don't have AGMs as Kenwright is afraid to be questioned.

One piece of praise I'll throw his way is that we has the press eating out of his hands, none of them dare question finances or ask him the hard questions. The 24/7 search will prove fruitless – who in their right mind wants a club where they have debt and the person responsible for that wants to remain the figurehead?Our ground is – for want of a better word – a dump, attendances are down and Kitbag take all the money from shirt sales.

The people that support this chairman need a good shake-out; it wont change and there is nothing we can do about it.

I can just see us with an apple logo on the front of our shirts....

Andy explained his views to you very clearly, his views are the views of the vast majority of Evertonians who are in the main very sensible and smart enough to see the issues in a far broader and more balanced sense than yourself.

"Kenwright is a personable and honest man who has been very successful in his field, who was praised to the rafters when he replaced the last kicking boy who didn't bring us success and an Evertonian to boot. He has been guilty only of being over optimistic regarding what we could achieve and telling us what he thought we wanted to hear and in that respect he is only human. He's accused of a lot of skulduggery for which there is not a shred of evidence".

Now let me go through that...Honest...Not a shred of evidence for skulduggery....Yeah that all seems about right.

A few ideas:

(i) A movie about Blues' Union rebellion called "The Grudge".
(ii) "The Manchurian Candidate" about the reign of Mike Walker.
(iv) "The Comedy of Errors" - a farcical play about Everton's transfer policies.

How about a Dumb & Dumber-style comedy about two hapless dupe Evertonians who encounter BK (played by Terry Thomas)

The story could be that no matter how glaring and obvious the con-man is and no matter how many times he fucks them, they can't see it and think he's wonderful.

Now....what to call them?

Dolt!

So the claims made by Kenwright in this video from 2007 when he said we must leave Goodison ASAP as it will "soon lose it's safety certificate" are the views of an 'honest man'?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7HQFLkxr2g

The man has been nothing but a despicable, self-serving liar for the last 13 years.

I know forums are a good place to rant when we feel powerless to effect real change but come on how does shooting fellow Blues with different opinions help any cause.

I am pretty intelligent and I do not subscribe to conspiracy theories about some of the ways people perceive Bill to have let us down. The bottom line is he's just not rich enough to deliver the success we want and all the issues stem from that.

I personally would like to see new investment and perhaps even a new manager soon but if it doesn't happen I won't rant at fellow blues who disagree. In the meantime I am grateful for Bill steadying the sinking ship by the skin of his not wealthy enough teeth, and grateful for some raised expectations, good memories and much better football under David Moyes.

I hope for better but have to accept we are a poor relation nowadays and I think it is a combination of factors as to why we were left behind in the Sky era, but mainly as a result of historical issues that only a billionaire can overcome.

I thought he was demonised because he basically had no money, but he was fan, and had the club's best interests at heart.

Then I read some pieces on here, by the likes of Tom Hughes, Colin Fitzpatrick and a few others. I also go to the game with a few well connected blues, who have told me some horror stories, none of which I would ever put into print, as some of these lads are ex-players, who still work for the club.

Read all the evidence Ben, and make your own mind up as I did.

If you still think this board ( it's not all about B.K. ) have the best interests of the club at heart, and that we could do no better in terms of ownership, that is your choice - but I would be amazed if any sensible supporter could not see; a) what the motives are behind the current ownership and ; b) That the Chairman is completely out of his depth, both in a financial sense, and as a businessman.

You will probably find the club is actually not being run by Kenwright at all, and that is where all our problems start.

That being the case we are going to have to adopt a new business model, probably with the emphasis on youth and although it will be painful another assault on the wage structure, meaning we will have to endure lower placings in the league and even more patience in the future.

BK staked the future of the club on Kirkby and he lost, so we are where we are until something akin to a miracle occurs.

That is why it has been so frustrating this season, with all the main rivals for CL in transition, we had a golden opportunity and it looks like we have failed to take it.

I have always believed since day one of BK acquiring the club that he was a patsy for A.N. Other but who that mystery person or family is, is anyone's guess.

Enlighten me some more. I do read all the stuff on here and KEIOC etc and Blue Union stuff. Are you saying there is someone in the background who is waiting for a big pay out after helping Bill out, hence the intransigence about any sale?

What do you mean about stuff insiders have said? Are you pointing to some general incompetence? I know a bit about Elstone from my days working at The Rugby Football League. He was a decent sports administrator, with commercial awareness at the appropriate level. He's no big time man with huge commercial clout but he fits with Everton's commercial standing and I can't imagine him being blind to some super conspiracy as he was a decent human being.

He is the patron saint of lost causes and cretinous comments. Martin, sometimes the majority are right.

I live and work with lots of rational normal Evertonians and I go to as many games as I can and have been watching Everton for many decades. I have yet to meet one Evertonian who has the same view as some of the headbangers on here especially the conspiracy theorists. Believe me the headbangers aren't numerous enough to qualify as a minority never mind have any significance.

One thing that is a common thread amongst them is that they don't understand the issues and they have no solutions except Kenwright and Moyes out they are also shrill and intolerant of the valid views of others. They are the laughing stock not only of the Everton fraternity but of the football world.

The board and Management team has without any doubt run the club well in recent years, we have a good group of players and we continuously exceed the expectations of those who actually understand football. Where they have let the club down, if it is possible to say that, is that they have not attracted inward money to the club or managed to sell the club. My opinion on this though is that we are asking the impossible in either case. Everton are not an investment and patently not a buy. We are a basket case of a business. The current board want to sell at a decent profit and there's nothing wrong with that but they can't and won't. They are absolutely up shit creek without a paddle and all they can do is tread water keeping the club afloat which is where we are at now.

Followed by.

"We are a basket case of a buisness."

"They are absolutely up shit creek without a paddle."

Run that by me again ????????????

Let me ask you this then Martin. Straight question:

The chairman has said the club is for sale, the club is looking for investment. (It doesn't matter which you believe because neither is correct.) Whose shares are for sale, Martin? Not one board member has admitted to being willing to sell any shares, so what's for sale? We have hocked even the pies.

Our shadow fraternity Earl and Green (the old men from the muppets) are pulling the chairman's strings; being an Evertonian doesn't qualify you to be a chairman.

The board of Everton FC have failed in their duty of care to ALL the shareholders in the club. They are charged by LAW with ensuring the future funding of the business IN PREFERENCE to their own interests, they have failed to do this over a period of years that has led to them selling all assets and future revenues of the club.

They cancelled AGMs in their own interest. Not in the interests of the other shareholders; they have ignored repeated please from the Shareholders Association to reinstate them; they haven't, again in their own interests.

The sale of the club, when it does come, will be in their own interests, not the club's. If any one doubts that, they should look to the findings of the enquiry into Kirkby which stated that as a finding.

Some of us aren't as naive as others, if there are headbangers (sic) at one end of the spectrum, there are fools at the other. Not one shred of evidence, Martin?

Love to debate the point in person with Bill, I wouldn't need to take notes because it would be a very short conversation.

Regarding the second paragraph, please provide some kind of back up for what you say. The Kirkby enquiry determined that the club had been for sale for years. Therefore the club is for sale unless you can show that not to be the case. And what if it isn't for sale?

The fourth paragraph isn’t deserving of a reply.

Your fifth paragraph is absolute rubbish and again doesn’t warrant a response. As I have said many times, if you can show any breaking of Company law then I’ll finance you to prosecute the board as long as you repay me when you lose. Go for it.

They cancelled the AGMs because idiotic shareholders had set up proxies to disturb the meetings for their own agendas. If you or I had been subjected to that then we’d do the same. Again show evidence of malpractice or that goes into the rubbish bin with the rest.

Re para 7. I have read the Kirkby report several times and don’t believe that what you say is correct. Please tell me the paragraph that says this. Of course the sale will be in their interests, absolutely correct in a business sense. EFC is a business not a registered charity.

Re para 8, I have asked for evidence of malpractice by the board on many occasions and been given not a shred – only idiotic conspiracy theory. Either back up what you say or we go back to the null hypothesis which is that they are not guilty of any malpractice.

What are you going to debate with Bill Christine? People like you have lost all right to debate anything with the board. I would defeat you easily in any face-to-face debate on these issues, BK and his mob would eat you and spit you out.

Facts or good logic please and no hand waving.

Equally ridiculous is this branding of Everton fans as seals or pavlov's dogs. These people paid good money to be at that game and judging by some of the comments on here are as equally in the dark about the movings of the board as most of you are. If they want to clap they're equally as entitled to as those who march with the BU. There's a difference in opinion there but it doesn't make one side some sort of intellectual elite and the other side an animalistic mob incapable of an independent thought when BKs face flashed up. That just shows a ridiculous lack of respect for a large swathe of match going Evertonians.

Christine you have accused Martin of not having one shred of evidence yet have based an entire argument purely around your own opinion and your own interpretation of the cancellation of the AGMs. Just because the club hasn't been sold is not proof that its not up for sale, you have no proof that Earl and Green run anything in this club (surface appearances would seem to suggest they don't really do anything but I seemingly like you couldn't possibly know). To accuse Everton of breaking company law without any evidence is also a rather bewildering claim.

Lastly Martin is articulating what he believes to be his version of events. None of us have any concrete eveidence or knowledge of what is going on behind the scenes. With this in mind why do some people find the need to personally attack him as some sort of lunatic? An incapability to respond to Martin without personally belittling him only strenghtens his claim that some people have no idea what they're talking about. Sadly none of us do but its a sad day when different views aren't allowed to be expressed without fear of personal ridicule. I've seen some of the most outrageous, completely fabricated, biased, tripe posted on this site and been applauded to the rafters.....Pavlov's dogs indeed.

With respect to my comments regarding the duties of a Director, go to UK company law and see for yourself. That a duty to put the interests of the business ahead of personal interest. They are charged with ensuring the finance of a business for the long and short term viability, in your own comments you have stated that they have failed to do so.

Self interest? In the Kirkby inquiry, Elstone was asked who would be selling their shares to which he replied not one member of the board, which blew the 24/7 scenario to bits didn;t it? so I ask you again Martin, WHAT is for sale if no one wants to sell? Kenwright has already stated that he wants to stay on, so he isn't... any other takers? Whose share are for sale?

So you see that the shareholders association are a pack of idiots too? Yes they used a law that was meant to relieve the administration to SME's not £100m companies, but they could and did take advantage of it. But the reason they did so was to prevent having to listen to awkward questions about Kirkby, long dead, so why do they ignore The Shareholders Association?

Dialogue is two way communication, Directors are answerable to shareholders, irrespective if it makes them uncomfortable.

Tell you what Martin.. I will be over in the UK in a few months time, I will sit down face to face with you and take your argument apart, piece by piece.

I have resisted the temptation to be as derogatory and personally insulting as you have been, but then its the sign of a poor argument when you attack the debater isn't it?

The facts that came out of the Kirkby enquiry weren't opinions or interpretations, they were facts – actual facts. Had we been given the full facts before the DK bid, I doubt any shareholder would have supported the Board.

Regarding the cancellation of the AGMs, it is a fact that Bill was pissed off with awkward questions put to him and one of the reasons it was cancelled. Not opinion, fact.

There are many documented facts regarding the Board that Martin will not accept and that is a reason threads degenerate to personalities. Honestly, I think by now most of us could write Martin's replies before he could!

Refering to the AGM please read Elstonce responses recently when asked about the reinstatement of the AGMs in which he blames others for trying to hijack the debate and asking questions that directors would not answer. Therefore it follows,it was NOT done because the change in law, but because shareholders demanded answers which made the directors uncomfortable.

Nowhere have I accused Everton of breaking company law. I have stated the duties of a Director, not the club responsibilties under company law. That clearly requires directors in any business to put the interests of the business ahead of personal gain. In whose interests is it to sell the shares in the club which has few assets, lose making and a poor stadium for an oft quoted price of 100 / 200+ million. Not one penny of which would find its way into the coffers of the club.

Lastly, Martin winded up with a personal attack, I didn't denegrate him personally like many have done but it didn't stop his response. I did not personally belittle him, or anyone else for that matter.. I don't have to.

Im sorry Christine but this implies that you think they broke the law. They were charged by the law to do something, you assert they didn't, they therefore broke the law. It is obviously far more complex than this but that is a danger both sides of this arguemnt get into (not that I am on either yours or Martin's side).

Earl and Green? Directors selling the club for their own interests not for the clubs (putting aside the business vs charity argument for one second). This often quoted asking price, quoted where? (I don't doubt your claim it exists, I'd just like to see for myself this often mentioned quote).

To be honest Christine most of my complaint about personal attacks wasn't directed at you as you do argue well, unlike a lot on this thread.

Christine, there is no personal attack in my post.

I will respond to all of you in due course or would you prefer that I don't "hijack" the thread with a bit of sense? Come on guys.

The AGM issue is dead, EFC decided to stop holding them as they are entitled to do. You may not like it but that’s tough. It was Bill’s call and it’s his train set.

Absolutely incorrect on the Directors' duties and I’ll send you the text of the relevant section if you’d like. For the rest of this paragraph please stop hand waving and say what you have to say in clear English and I’ll answer it.

As I said, no personalization at all in my post and regarding debate? I only have to say one word and it would be end of case. :-)

As I said I have read every word in the Kirkby enquiry several times and if you can show yourself to be correct by reference to paragraph I’ll unconditionally accept your view.

If any fact is documented then you can point me to it. It isn’t a case of me demanding court standard proof of any conspiracy theory, all I ask is some kind of justification. Why is that such a difficult concept. I believe that what I say is correct because - - - - - - . Simples

Opinion is a subjective thing, indeed the definition is worth reading!

In general, an opinion is a belief about matters commonly considered to be subjective, i.e., it is based on that which is less than absolutely certain, and is the result of emotion or interpretation of facts. An opinion may be supported by an argument, although people may draw opposing opinions from the same set of facts. Opinions rarely change without new arguments being presented. It can be reasoned that one opinion is better supported by the facts than another by analyzing the supporting arguments. In casual use, the term 'opinion' may be the result of a person's perspective, understanding, particular feelings, beliefs, and desires. It may refer to unsubstantiated information, in contrast to knowledge and fact-based beliefs.

Because there is NO divulged and complete set of facts, it means a jigsaw of comment and fact are combined to give a view of status and most likely facts.

Pretty obvious, but unfortunately many do not gather to make an opinion on good ground and attack the poster rather than the argument. It's always easy to say "prove it"; despite many glaring facts and comments, proving 1 + 1 = 2 is still subjective.

This works on both sides of the argument, it's not a response to ask a poster to prove an opinion, the response is to give your own and not shoot the poster.

When there are a number of facts that suggest issues are present, you don't have to have the Wisdom of Solomon to make an assessment or an opinion. That's what we all do, some better than others but we should defend our right to have an opinion. (Unless of course it requires an AGM...)

My apologies if this seems a little off topic but I think its worthwhile to state the obvious now and again.

Here it is again Mason, BK this so-called 'honest man'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7HQFLkxr2g

Philip, a few thousand out of a crowd of 34 /35,000 doesn't add up to the 'vast majority.'

However, I just notice things that go on compared to other clubs and my frustrations and questions that occur to me I put into print on this site.

My questions are Why do we always wait before we move in the transfer market until the last couple od days ?
Why are we not loaning players IN at the moment when its obvious that our first eleven need decent cover.
If we had the money to fund the loaning IN of Ofoe, and missed him because the paperwork was not completed in time, why are we not loaning him IN now ?
If we had over 8 million in our transfer budget and had earmarked FER as a good buy, why did we not move for him earlier in the window so that we would have time to bid for an alternative player ?

For myself as a paying fan for donkeys years, these questions are far more impoprtant to me than a discussion on the clubs business.

I just think like a man who has dabbled in business in the past, part of which was having a budget to be able to buy stock for selling at a profit.
Surely the players are the club assets/stock and replenishment is required from time to time.

I pay to watch football and hope that my club EVERTON are succesful.
This seasons start was the best for years and up to now only the Manchester clubs have lost less games in the premiership.
For the first time for years I was being entertained and it seemed we were on the verge of building a decent squad.
The transfer window seemed an opportune time to cash in on our great start by strengthening the squad.
I watched in frustration as almost every club did some thing to bolster their squads, but we did NOTHING !

I just feel badly let down by this dismal board of misdirectors and my interest at the moment is on the wane.. quite .similar to the clubs champion league prospects.
These are questions I would like answered.

Can you not understand the very simple concept of somebody saying something that he believed to be true at one time, something that he may have been advised to be true, and then finding out that it wasn't correct or that they'd otherwise found a solution to the problem? Do people in PR and political positions tell the absolute truth at all times?

Seriously, if this is all you have against BK then you should give up mate

I will put them to the Board of Directors of the Everton Football Club Limited at the next AGM.

Oh... hang about.

Part 1: Directors' responsibilities

As a director of a limited company, the law says you must:
try to make the company a success, using your skills, experience and judgment

follow the company’s rules, shown in its articles of association
make decisions for the benefit of the company, not yourself

tell other shareholders if you might personally benefit from a transaction the company makes

keep company records and report changes to Companies House and HM Revenue & Customs

make sure the company’s accounts are a ‘true and fair view’ of the business’ finances

register for Self Assessment and send a personal Self Assessment tax return every year

I did also have 3 interpetations for Duty of care given by Law lords, but seems they were lost in the ether.. Besides if my memory is correct I have given you all this before. If memory serves me correct its clause 172 of the act but I may be mistaken and its midnight!! Bedtime...

At the moment there is no openness and no honesty we cannot believe a word that is said by the Board and yet some still defend them. Cast your mind back 2 weeks did you ever believe that we were spending 8m on a midfielder without selling..........no neither did we but we at least campaigned for change.

Yet another is to play the "Kirby inquiry stated that the Club is for sale so it must be true" card but when asked who was it who testified under oath that the Club is NOT for sale and why did the inquiry conclude that person was lying and the reason why, he refuses to anwer.

Also, as I say, a few thousand clapping BK out of 34/35,000 in the stadium doesn't prove that the vast majority support BK. That was in response to Philip (#960).

Which is it Martin? Was he misled/mis-informed before blurting this falsehood on live TV? Or was he, like the PR people and politicians you mention, deliberately lying?

Either way, along with many other debacles from the man, it points to a Chairman who is incompetent and severely out of his depth.

Why Bill gets so much hatred, I've no idea. Would you prefer the club was owned by a Yank that hasn't been to the ground since last May or a bloke who lives and breaths Everton?

Please enlighten us as to why you think it's well run ?

I personally would rather have someone who is open, honest, ambitious and willing to invest in the Club someone who relies on them being a success to get a return on their hard earned cash and not just some old Romantic who is keeping hold of his trainset because he has nothing better to do.

I don't know anyone who actually goes to the games who has a good word to say about him his admirers appear to be those who watch us from a distance through rose tinted specs looking at how we skimp and save and lie in 4th place. The people who hate the foreign investment and who despise the success other clubs have through investment.

Bill should hold a referendum to see what the fans really think.

Mr Earl the "Yank" hasn't been to Goodison in years and he is part of the core team at EFC so.............

Love the bit about how other teams would love to adopt our business model, that's a gem of a comment

I guess your taking the piss so I will leave it at that

And I constantly call Liverpool fans 'deluded'!

Apologies if I've got your motive/intelligence wrong.

I'm really busy here but I do a 12 hour day and the few minutes it takes me to put you guys right are just breaks for me.

I finish at 1900hrs and then go for a beer with my Evertonian mates. I don't go near a keyboard to write comments when I've had a drink. It's my buddies here who label you lot as "headbangers", seriously. I try to tell them what a great bunch you are but the problem is they can come and read the stuff.

Phil, here's a few facts

There is nobody in the football world outside of a tiny but very bitter activist bunch of our own fans FFS who believe anything other than that EFC is well run and who have anything but good words for our board, management, team and fans.

In the absence of any evidence to the contrary the board are running the club well and have done nothing that in good faith was not for the benefit of the club.

EFC does exceptionally well given its resources. The notion that us not winning trophies shows this to be false is naive. Football changed with the introduction of the EPL and now only maybe 2 teams in any season can win the EPL, the FA Cup opens it up to maybe 4-5 and the League cup is possible but 20 teams have a chance. The odds against Everton winning anything in a given year are tiny. Our squad is not strong enough to compete on all fronts so are chances of success based on trophies is naturally very low.

The vast majority of Evertonians support the board and manager.

Opinion isn't fact, rumour isn't fact, conspiracy theories are just that.

No statement can be taken as high probability of correctness unless there is a correspondingly high degree of back-up given to support it.

Thank you

So what you're saying then, Martin, is that what you wrote is a whole load of rubbish!

Go easy on the Efes? Some chance mate

Someone once asked James Thurber, “what do you think of your wife?” He answered: “compared with what?”

That is the nub of the issue. In comparison with the “model” of the Seventies and Eighties, Everton were arguably “well run.” On planet earth, in 2013 in England, if you take our performance overall on matters such as: financial backing; the state of the ground; transfer budget; long term security; image; marketing etc. we have fallen well behind the competition.

Certainly better than QPR, Forest, Portsmouth and Villa. We still are a Premier League team and are now considered European contender; which is something you wouldn't have believed 10 years ago. People keep saying "We need a proper businessman at the helm"; but then Tony Fernandes is an excellent businessman, as I'm sure Mandaric was too.

Man City are punching well above their weight (considering the debt and financial fair play may see them struggle). Liverpool have spent somewhere around £350m since 2006 and gone backwards. Chelsea aren't the same club of 5 years ago. Villa massively overspent and are suddenly in relegation fights. Arsenal are just profiteers and would sooner finish in CL place than win a trophy. They all had/have "businessmen" in charge. Spurs is probably the ideal model now. Levy doesn't take crap and when he sells, he sells big.

So I'm not sure how you fix Everton's problem and to be truthful I don't actually know what Everton's problem is. But people moaning that we don't have a "proper businessman" in charge is somewhat ridiculous. We can all pull statistics out to prove our point but it's getting nowhere.

Are Everton a well run club?

Probably the best answer is, not bad

How do you back - up you claim Martin, that the 'vast majority' of Evertonians back the board?

And with that quote or FACT you just lost the argument. Whose fault do you think it is that we cannot invest in the squad and purchase quality players to help boost our chances that's right your old friend Blue Bill.

Kenwright is holding us back from ever achieving anything and fans who support him allow it to happen.

If a statement came from the club today that said Bill Kenwright has stepped down as Chairman, who would take control and what would you expect from them?

However, on virtually every other project it has encountered abject failure, particularly ANYTHING related to stadium development either at Goodison or elsewhere. Its only strategy on the commercial front is 'oursourcing' (quick but low money up front, please!) and I am still waiting for the announcement of any initiative to improve the financial position other than borrowing against future income.

So, in brief, to those who follow the team rather than the club, BK`s board are doing okay. But, to those of us who live our lives hoping for a bit more than okay and have the temerity to 'call ourselves supporters' whilst daring to probe the reasons why that is never going to happen, this Board is not fit to govern an institution of Everton`s standing.

"Kings of Cock-Up" would be a more appropriate appellation for them!

But on this occasion I cry ...brother, ( in our case Mr M. Kenrick ) where art thou, he's at it again.

It's all about opinions but all this ' show me ' ' prove to me ' and other masonisms ad infinitum

Well??

Are you trying to get me censored too? I seriously hope that you aren't mate.

Just appreciate one thing and that is that I create more interest on here than probably anybody and there are many good and non-insulting challenges made to me above which I think is great and which I'll respond to when I can. I don't like the idea of some school sneak asking the prefects to keep me in after school though. You're a disgrace mate, no less.

What you say is true but it has a logical fault. It is possible that a club can be very well run and yet still fall well behind its competition. The reality for EFC is that we are now a small club from a deprived area of a small city living in the shadow of three very successful rich Brand name clubs and competing against leisure pursuits other than socceer. We are in a terrible state financially because our relative income has dropped and we have borrowed to try to maintain our place at the top table. All of our peers from the 60s like Sheffield Wed, Wolves, Burnley, Bolton, etc., have gone down the pan but at least we are still there.
I contend that we are where we are despite being run well over the years rather than because we have not. There is no magic wand that will produce revenue and or success. It is not a fault of the board that they have not put their own money in only that they have not managed to do the impossible and find somebody daft enough to put theirs in.

Here is all the evidence you need that this guy is a WUM - please don't reply to this idiot, he is only on here to provoke real supporters.

He is probably part of the Sky generation - I bet he has never set foot inside Goodison!

You maybe observing the letter of the Law ( as you see it ) as regards to TW. But not the spirit.

And name calling is just so many sticks and stones water off this ducks back. I've been called far worse by far bigger and better...I rate you in the ' inspire shock and awe ' stakes as just below a balloon on a stick.

You've been away for some months ( for what reason I don't know ) and have gradually, softly softly, played your way quietly back in, but you are back to your old ways, well performed to a high standard ways it may be said, but all just a reprise of the previous B*ll*cks.

Sticks and Stones...as I've told you before, away and f*ck spiders.

Being wound up is something that people do to themselves not what somebody like me can do to them. If you can provide evidence that I'm deliberately provoking people then show me clear examples and I'll stop. I believe that what you mean that by "winding people up" I'm just not singing with the choir? I'm not a herd animal mate and all of my posts are rational.

Derek, are you feeling OK mate? What exactly do you mean that I'm not observing the spirit of TW?

Kevin Tulley, I'm 62 and I've been a very active fan home and away since the early 60s despite not being from the area and working out of the UK for many years. I can't match my mate Bill as the greatest Evertonian ever but I've always done my best to support the team.

When we get in there you can actually ask other Evertonians what they think of the board and the way the club is being run – just unbiased opinion from the real fans.

At the Kirkby Inquiry who said "The Club is not for sale" and why did the findings conclude that he was lying? and who did the Inquiry board believe?

Again you are indicating that the majority of what you say is complete garbage.

So Martin you;re just doing this for the notoriety, a trait of a WUM.

If you're trying to take Richard Dodds place you're failing miserably.

I wasn’t writing another PhD thesis, just making a quick fire point.

I understand your logic, although I don’t agree. A vegetable market stall selling its tired fruit can still be well run on its own, limited, terms, even if Costo and Waitrose have moved in next door and are progressively killing it. And as the great grandson finally closes the pitch owing to lack of customers, he can still argue that the contents of the till always tally and that he does invariably sweep up the tired cabbage peelings from the road before heading for home.

I was at a presentation by Bill a few years ago in London. A questioner from the floor complained about the response from the club when he was trying to buy a kit for his son (or some such thing). ‘It’s not my problem’, was the gist of the reply. He told the questioner to, ‘call the club’: ‘I’m the Chairman, I’m not involved in that’, was his message.

To take this as the sole example (and as I say, I don’t have the time or energy to go through examples under each of the areas I have cited above, point by point) people on this site constantly cite these sorts of failures on the part of the club.

I see us as more ‘amateur hour’ than ‘well run.’ And I am never fooled by the patronising pat on the head we get from other fans about, “well run Everton.”

Hang on, hang on. You say "the Red Shite have been sold twice in recent years" as if their recent flirtation with disaster was something to aspire to rather just being the amusing soap opera it was. What do you really want? BK to flog us off to a consortium headed up by Mr T and Face Man?

Enjoy us for what we are. Be proud of how our club acts because silverware is a rare commodity and shouldn't be the be-all and end-all.

Hang on Martin. Those things can still be CORRECT, even if people haven't got the 'proof' to demonstrate it.

Seems like you have a bad case of the 'rationals' there Martin, where only what can be demonstrated has any credibility. Real life isn't a carefully controlled experiment and so will not necessarily come with tangible evidence included.

FACT is, in his imperfect world, sometimes you just have to look at all the circumstantial evidence you can muster and decide for yourself.

Can you imagine where science and law and other key parts of our developed civilisation would be if its proponents weren't rational?

I'm often asked about the "shirt" issue and it is often used as yet another plank to beat the club with. For me, it is nothing, if I want to buy a shirt it takes me 5 minutes online.

Do you want this board to be a single issue echo chamber where people shout the same hackneyed old bile against anything that comes from the club or manager or do you want it to be a vibrant discussion chamber where people discuss opposing views under the general rules of sensible debate. One rule is that you don't make any point unless you can defend it under challenge.

"The board is a bunch of criminals with no interest of the club at heart", is an unjustified opinion and is only valid if preceded with "In my opinion – ", or followed by " – because".

Following your own rule, in my opinion, you are talking crap. Now then, that's a valid, justified opinion?

MM just comes across as a WUM who is the only person that presents facts while everyone else just has opinion that cannot be supported by proof.

Would I want a Sheikh or Oligarch in charge hiring and firing? It just doesn't seem the Everton Way. Would I like to see Messi in an Everton shirt – of course. Moyes pig-headed and stubborn, safe but with loyalty and integrity and bringing decent footy. We're miles behind the others we're trying to compete with.

Modern football is flawed... it died a while back. In many senses I have my season ticket for the chance to spend quality time with my dad, brothers and son but know that all we'll ever see in terms of success is a trip to Wembley. I'm 5th generation Blue (legend has it!) – I love Everton for its history and tradition – a new board/chairman will make little difference without £500 million. A new manager may change the style of play or formation but we won't win the league.

Am I happy with Moyes and Kenwright... at the current time, they'll do. Until that white knight comes or the arse drops out of this crazy league we play in, a change will make little difference. In the meantime, we're respected, safe from the drop, a quaint reminder of how football used to be.

Wrong, Martin. Opinions may not be sacrosanct but they are neither worthless nor beneath respect unless you have strong evidence to the contrary. Your starting point seems to be to dismiss out of hand opposing opinions whilst expecting others to be impressed by your equally unsubstantiated slant on things.

"Can you imagine where science and law and other key parts of our developed civilisation would be if its proponents weren't rational?"

Apart from being a ridiculous standard to apply to a fans forum, I don't think this point is particularly robust in any case.

It is a very poor scientist who doesn't understand the risks of over-extrapolation, and the driving force behind any innovator is the natural tendency to enquire and look beyond the obvious.

The law and society as a whole are not actually rooted in scientific rationality as a lot of what people would recognise as the best of human nature is actually irrational (a lot of vulnerable members of our society would be in great peril if we were to stick to what is rational). The implementation of such strictures is also highly subjective, though intended to be objective, as it is implicitly understood that you cannot expect to have irrefutable proof in every case.

I'm torn on Martin. He writes well and he's obviously reasonably smart. I accept that people can be provided with the same information and reach conclusions — that's just part of human nature... difficult to comprehend because I suspect many of us would find it hard to embrace an alternative analysis that we fundamentally disagreed with. But it's that dichotomy that underlies a lot of what we spend our time batting back and forth on here.

And my sense is that's the kind of exchange most people appreciate and want to read. They don't want to be brow-beaten by a supercilious and self-possessed 'superior intellect' like Martin presents himself. Which pushes me a little reluctantly toward the camp that labels him as a Wind-Up Merchant.

I've been in those work camps miles away from anywhere. So much time on your hands and no 'normal' interactions with the rest of the world who aren't your workmates. The temptation to go on an elaborate wind-up must be a massive. (Assuming of course the Kazakhstan stuff is actually true, and not simply part of the WUM thing...)

I find some of his posts are so fucking annoying, and that's where I think Derek nails it in terms of the ill-defined 'spirit of discussion'. Martin is definitely flouting that. But for a WUM, that's meat and potatoes... and the reactions would no doubt only encourage him.

I don't really want to vet all his posts — it means I'd actually have to read them all when I have better things to do — but I don't really want to let him go off on his old rampages like he has on this thread. He knows well enough not to ask for 'proof' anymore, as I warmed him about that last time... but his very first post on this one throws out the "not a shred of evidence" line and it doesn't stop him coming out with shit like post #230, where he's basically recycling his rejectionist nonsense while claiming to talk for "the vast majority of Evertonians". That alone should be enough to require monitoring: we each post as individuals, and no-one can claim to speak for this mysterious vast majority as, in all likelihood, they don't actually all agree on any one thing to do with Everton.

So Martin, if you read this, take it as an indication that you have gone on your last rampage. We've heard it all before. Few agree with your warped take on things, at least judging by the number of posts in your favour. So, exercise a little restraint and spend a bit of time thinking about the spirit of discussion you claim to not understand.

Unfortunately, he appears to lack sufficient empathy to be able to appreciate what 'opponents' bring to the table and be completely unable to accept that his conclusions could be wrong. That in itself is fair enough (we all draw the line somewhere) except that it seems inevitably to lead to apparent condescension, and whilst he often comes across as knowledgeable he then posts comments that show a very one dimensional appreciation of some complex scenarios.

I am happy to debate with anyone and enjoy pitting my knowledge / understanding / appreciation of our club and the game in general against / alongside what I consider to be a passionate group of people, but just getting told you are wrong over and over quickly wears thin.

I would hate to think that anyone who enjoys the cut and thrust of TW was prevented from participating erroneously. I am hoping Martin can somehow demonstrate he is not simply a WUM, as the apparent permanent loss of Doddy already weighs heavily.